Annual CGV Report – Facts, Clarifications, And Just A Little Commentary
Based on reader feedback, it appears the community likes “occasional but not too often” information and discussion about the system for enforcing the Community Guidelines. So I have settled on an “early in the calendar year” annual update, and given the recent discussions it seems like a fine time to open this can o’ worms. I have broken this post into three sections: factual information, clarifications on how the system works, and a little closing commentary. For those who may be newer to AN, please note that CGV stands for Community Guidelines Violation.
The Facts
In 2007, there were 23 complaints lodged resulting in 19 “strikes” or “warnings”. (In 2006, there were 38 complaints lodged, resulting in 26 “strikes” or “warnings”.)
Some Clarifications On How The System Works
- Any user, whether or not they were the target, may report a comment they believe is a CGV for evaluation by AN’s four-person sub-committee. The sub-committee does not actively look for CGVs and neither do the front-page writers or administrators. It is up to community members to report comments that violate the Community Guidelines – if a CGV is not reported, it cannot be considered and thus no “strike” can be given.
- When judging whether or not a comment is a CGV, the sub-committee is holding the comment up to the stated Community Guidelines as the measure of whether or not a “strike,” a “warning,” or “no strike” is warranted.
- Each sub-committee member considers a given complaint independently (not all together as a group). Thus, for a comment to be deemed a “strike,” a community member has to be compelled to report it and then at least 3 of 4 sub-committee members, when comparing the comment to the stated Community Guidelines, has to independently conclude that the comment is indeed a CGV.
- When a user is given a “strike” or “warning,” he/she receives an email (from me) that states what the offending comment was and which part of the Community Guidelines it violated.
- In contrast to the judicial system, “defendants” (complainees) are not contacted prior to a ruling for a chance to give their defense, and there is no formal “appeal” process in place if a “strike” is given. The sub-committee exists to compare complaints against the stated CGs, and their rulings are their rulings.
A Little Commentary
First of all, please be clear on something: It is really hard to get banned without trying really hard. Any “strike” rolls off after four “clean” months. There were all of 19 “strikes” doled out to the entire community in the entire calendar year of 2007, because most CGVs go unreported. If you get a “strike,” and then within four months get another one, and then – knowing you are one “strike” away from being banned – you can’t go four months without making yet another comment that a user, and at least 3 of 4 judges, all independently agree violates Community Guidelines that essentially say “don’t personally insult or belittle people, and leave politics out of this baseball site,” well then…maybe AN just isn’t right for you.
And honestly, the notion that there is bias on the sub-committee is pretty lame. A lack of transparency does not inherently mean there must be bias. First, realize that Blez selected the sub-committee members specifically because they were community members who had established his, and the community’s, trust and confidence. Then remember that the sub-committee members volunteer their time to AN solely because they care about the site, and wish for it to remain a community where the discourse is not just spirited but also civil and respectful. Finally, consider that by having four sub-committee members, and allowing each to cast a vote independently, there is not room for any one person’s opinion, or potential bias, to weigh too heavily. The system is designed so that a group of veteran community members who are fair-minded by nature can have an objective means (the stated CGs) to come to a consensus decision – in the name of holding the community accountable for treating each other decently.
Does the sub-committee always get it right? No. Do they deserve 1,000 thanks for every criticism? I think so. Now cue the worms, in 3…2…1…
0 recs |
117 comments
Comments
Hm.
First, realize that Blez selected the sub-committee members specifically because they were community members who had established his, and the community’s, trust and confidence.
First off, let me say that I don't think the committee members' identities should be public knowledge, because they'd most likely be harassed by some members if known. But I have no idea who they are (maybe it's obvious to other/older oldtimers, but I don't actually give it much thought) -- so it's not really accurate for you to say they have established the community's trust. How do we know we can trust them when we don't know who they are, and some community members have expressed concern about bias & preferential treatment?
Again, not saying "Tell me who they are." Just saying "Don't tell me they have established my trust."
by Poppy on Feb 8, 2008 8:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Nice try.
We all know you're one of them.
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
F!@# you!!!
Now, make me a committee member so I can get revenge on my enemies.
by kaweahkaweah on Feb 8, 2008 8:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.
by mikeA on Feb 11, 2008 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My suggestions
I also think the system mostly works well. Alternatives like a more public due process approach might add "fairness" but would also add public messiness, a fate which has ruined more than one blog in its day.
I do think some things could be improved. First would be allowing the accused to submit a written statement to the committee in their own defense, if they so choose. NOT a dialog, not a cross-examination or give-and-take, but simply adding a provision like: if you are accused of a CGV, you'll be notified of the alleged offending comment, and you may if you choose within 24 hours submit a written explanation of why you feel the comment does not warrant a CGV. The Committee members will take the statement into consideration, but will not specifically respond to it.
The other improvement I suggest is a statute of limitations. Right now, I believe, someone could go back through the archives and find comments from three years ago and lodge a CGV complaint. My biggest worry about the CGV system, which apparently has not happened, is that it will be used vindictively to get a user in trouble just out of spite. It would be pretty easy, I think, for me to search the records and find a bunch of old CGV-able comments from Nico, or monkeyball, or xbhaskarx, or Oz, or myself, or really nearly anyone who actively posts on off-topic matters or with edgy rhetoric. A provision that required complaints within a week or month of the comment would help.
Another solution to this would be that one's three strikes must be complaints from more than one user. As written now, the system is open for vindictive abuse, and though that may not have been a problem yet it could easily become one later.
I think the system is the best of a bunch of flawed alternatives, but could be tweaked with some safeguards without much trouble.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 8, 2008 8:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would hope
that these trusted community users would have the sense to see that the comment was made a month ago (or whatever) and ask themselves, "Why is this just now being brought up?"
If they don't have the common sense to smell a set-up then they aren't that trustworthy.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But if they're just following the rules
as now written, if it's a CGV-able comment, they're supposed to issue a strike, whether the comment was a year ago and the work of a vengeful complainant or not.
Put it this way: I'm pretty sure I could search the grover archives and find 15 potential CGVs over the past three years. Let's say I lodged 15 separate complaints about them. If the Committee felt they had to issue CGVs on just three of them, you'd be toast. Wouldn't it be better if the system had a safeguard to give the Committee a better choice?
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 8, 2008 9:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh. ;-)
I agree, BTW.
by The Dogfather on Feb 8, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You agree?
Like you'd really have to look over 3 years of comments to find 15 to get me in trouble.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again... common sense
If you start complaining about comments I made 3 years ago (heck, 3 weeks ago) the committee members should wonder what your motives are. I'm good, but I doubt I'm so good that a comment I made 3 weeks ago could have rendered you incapable of typing an e-mail for 3 weeks. A reasonably intelligent committee member (and if they aren't reasonably intelligent then they aren't trustworthy) would see that you aren't trying to help make AN a better place by calling my questionable comments to task, rather your goal is a nefarious attempt to get me kicked out because you are an evil person bent on vengance.
Good folk don't like to be manipulated by vermin like that. I'm willing to place my faith in the inate goodness of humanity and the kindness of 4 unnamed individuals.
God I'm screwed.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
I like USSM's policy:
We will ban for any reason and for no reason. In order to ban people who are lame, we will inevitably end up banning people who have done nothing wrong. There’s no appeal process. Bans may be permanent, and they may be adjusted to better target specific people, or repealed entirely.
Seriously: no reason will be given. No explanations will be given on who’s banned, why, or when.
by salb918 on Feb 8, 2008 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I concur
However I think the ruling powers at be here like the CGV system to kind of be checks and balances against irrational thought or emotion.
Perhaps.
That's how I interpret it, at least.
by noava22 on Feb 8, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My thought on this
The irrational part, in my opinion, is someone personally believing that on an Internet forum s/he has any rights to exist as a user...that somehow, free speech is being squelched if comments are deleted or bannings happen...that being a member and "having a voice" on a forum that another private citizen owns and operates, for profit, is somehow a priveldge that goes without saying.
This is not a critic of your particular reply; I'm just using your reply as a segue. I, myself, had earned a CGV in 2007...making mine one of the 19 for the year. To be honest, what I had written should have earned me a temporary ban instead of a mere CGV. So what did I do even before getting the violation, I banned myself.
The CGV policy in this forum is very generous. In my opinion, it can be too generous in some instances. The comical part of all this is that people still find reason to complain about these policies being too tough and spend way too much time contemplating the "what ifs". Sal linked to an iteresting user-behavior policy that has some merits.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 10, 2008 7:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In AN's case
I don't particularly trust the judgment of who the "we" would be if that sort of policy were adopted.
by mikeA on Feb 8, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't trust me?
by salb918 on Feb 8, 2008 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I trust you
you go by objective measures, and all the objective measures indicate that I am awesome.
by mikeA on Feb 8, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see.
run program compute_awesomeness
working...
input username: mikeA
working...
WARNING: output awesomeness less than machine precision, setting value to zero
mikeA awesomeness = 0
by salb918 on Feb 8, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't trust anyone ...
that I can't look straight in the eye ... or at least straight in the forehead ...
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
People you wouldn't trust, based on height:
Michael J. Fox
James Madison
Roman Polanski
Haile Selassie
Britney Spears
Gandhi
Jonathan Taylor Thomas
Prince
Yuri Gagarin
Paul Simon
Eddie Gaedel
by salb918 on Feb 8, 2008 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Add hobbits to the list
Damn Elijah Woods!
by oaklandSMASH on Feb 8, 2008 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a good thing I can't look straight into
JTT's eyes ... they're so dreamy ...
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That assumes Britney Spears
is standing up.
by iglew on Feb 8, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Where's your name?
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree
though i'd almost say wait until after the decision to give a strike/warning has been made. no sense in forcing you or them to go to the trouble if the group collectively sees no basis to it. plus whether you choose to respond or not (separate from what you actually say) may incorrectly be used to sway judgement (i.e., he didn't respond so he must be guilty sort of thing, one would hope that wouldn't happen, but presumeably they're human, right? right?). call it a 24 hour written appeal.
by DMOAS on Feb 8, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WTF!!!
another stat??? so was our C/S ratio better in 07 or 06? is that good or bad?
If I had a Strike in 05 is it worth anything today can I trade it for anything or use it as a whammy during a gameday thread????
by Satchmo22 on Feb 8, 2008 9:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Blez or Anybody...
"Community Guidelines that essentially say "don’t personally insult or belittle people, and leave politics out of this baseball site,"
Does this include the Barak Obama adds that have been posted on this site? Can Blez or anybody from AN please respond to this, because that pretty much bumbed me out, considering I thought that was part of the AN guidelines.
by asfan777 on Feb 8, 2008 9:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
See the revised Community Guidelines
Ads are seperate from editorial.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Political ads
These were beaten to death in this train-wreck. I don't think Blez will need to comment further on the issue.
by doctorK on Feb 8, 2008 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We know how many strikes have been given out...
but how many folks have been booted?
by kaweahkaweah on Feb 8, 2008 9:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Australians are at particular risk

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 8, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think two booted
is what Nico said somewhere in the train wreck that doctorK linked, above.
by Poppy on Feb 8, 2008 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Over a 2-year period
by kaweahkaweah on Feb 8, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct, two: reztips and oaktoon
And each earned many, many "strikes 2.9" before the trigger was pulled. There has literally never been a casual "oops, that's #3" banning. reztips and oaktoon were very controversial and were given multiple private warnings after declining to change their behavior upon being given a second "strike".
The purpose of the CGV system is to say "shape up or ship out" to those who break the rules multiple times. Most choose to "shape up," which is great - they stay and they don't break the rules.
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oaktoon was banned?
I thought he just left, even thought i disagreed with him all the time,he was fun to read.
by jahs34 on Feb 9, 2008 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oaktoon was banned - he simply
kept violating the CGs, even after getting two "strikes" and then repeated "last warnings". A lot of users enjoyed reading oaktoon, a lot didn't, but in the end it didn't matter because the CGs aren't about popularity, they're about honoring the CGs - and he chose not to.
by Nico on Feb 9, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A banning seemed inevitable
and oaktoon was perhaps the clearest example of repeated refusal to follow rules that AN has ever seen. But what you've just written directly contradicts what Blez and other said back then, and have repeated numerous times since, which was that oaktoon was not banned but voluntarily asked to be terminated, and Blez said he simply agreed to the request.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 9, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I remember it wrong,
but I know Randy Bell asked to be "terminated" - I thought oaktoon was banned. But don't quote me on it - I may have blocked out the details in a PTSD kinda way.
by Nico on Feb 9, 2008 7:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Finally!
More details on The Legend of Randy Bell. I miss Randy. He was so polite in a world of ass-hats. A regular Greek tragedy that guy.
by alox on Feb 9, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Certainly a lot of hullabaloo for not very many strikes and bannings.
It seems clear (at least to me) that CGV adjudication, however unfair or vendetta-driven, hasn't had much of a dampening effect on the discourse. Maybe there are lots of posters out there who'd contribute more if only they didn't feel so persecuted, but I kinda doubt it.
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here ya go, Nico

by doctorK on Feb 8, 2008 9:47 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
1000 thanks
You have one thank you from me.
by Larry E on Feb 8, 2008 10:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
OK, you've brought this on yourself
and given how buried the prior comments were in a thread that 90% of the community had (quite rightly) stopped reading, I'm going to essentially repost my complaint from the prior thread.
As a result of one comment made on this thread, I received a CGV "strike." Debatable, but hey-- I'm not the Directory (I think a French Revolution metaphor is appropriate here) and I don't know how they work. (Although comments posted by two front-page writers in the thread suggested that they were not exactly approaching the situation from a neutral mindset. Whether they are in fact members of the "committee," I have no idea.)
At the same time, I also had a prior warning (a nonspecific warning, at that-- it essentially amounted to an email from Blez saying "tone down the sarcasm") retroactively upgraded into a second "strike." Word to the wise: people do not like post facto justice. There's a good reason why the Constitution forbids it in criminal courtrooms.
Look. I don't expect a "trial." I understand that this is a website, and that ultimately the opinions of the moderators are what rule the day. But it doesn't seem too much to ask for rules which have been voluntarily established to regulate these things to be followed! If I had known that I actually had a "shadow strike," which was about to "roll off" since I had received it in September (although for all I know, maybe warning-pseudo-strikes never "roll off"), it's possible that the imbroglio in the prior thread would have never occurred.
Two other points. First is that this notion of "belittling" people is a. convenient, and b. incredibly ill-defined. Essentially any form of argument refutation beyond a toneless statement of facts can be construed as "belittling" someone. So can any form of sarcasm. Let me tell you, this makes it very difficult to put poorly thought-out arguments to bed, to the point where I frequently don't even bother trying anymore.
It's essentially a way of saying "your comments weren't actually insulting to anyone with any kind of maturity level, but we're going to give you a strike anyway because we think you're a jerk."
And second-- I think we can do without the sanctimony, thanks. It's not the fact of submitting to the way things are run here that irks me-- I have no problems with that other than the above. It's your constant insistence on calling something which is not justice "just," and something which is not fair "fair," that really sticks in my craw.
You know what I think is "lame"? (I use your words because apparently they've been proven not to be "belittling," by virtue of you having used them.) Assuming that people who have, as far as we know, no training whatsoever in mediation, arbitration or adjudication will automatically be "fair" just because they mean well. JUDGES are not fair all of the time. I mean... "fair by nature"? How on earth are any of us supposed to know that?
Call a spade a spade. This is not a judicial process, it's an executive process. Demanding that people submit to the Directory is one thing... demanding that they praise and honor it is entirely another. I don't want any part of the latter. I don't feel like I was treated fairly. Sorry. Warrantless claims about how fabulous the committee is are not going to change that opinion.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 10:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
going back and reading the posts
and where the infractions were, i would have to agree with you on not being treated fairly. all you said was that the swisher trade "saving money" argument was dumb. and it was. sorry to FSU/whoever else...PT was right. while i agree with the argument FSU made at the beginning of "the post" that said a million here and a million there, i don't see a reason to think this was the case...beane thought the package of guys he got was worth more than swisher, so he did it. he's done it before...he'll do it again. PT got verbally attacked afterwards, and both he and FSU got a strike. i don't think PT deserved a strike at all, a warning would have sufficed IMO.
this is coming from someone who wanted to call PT an asshole more than once when i was new here...i can't lie. i've since come to appreciate all his knowledge and input.
the fact that this is the third thread (at least that i've seen today) that is STILL arguing about what should be a CGV and what shouldn't be...well...maybe it's time for a review.
and i hope that other strike gets fixed, PT.
by flipgatey3 on Feb 8, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I got a chance to read the exchange for the first time this morning, and I really don't feel that this was worthy of a "strike".
If anything, you could call me a neutral third party. I hardly post here, I've made relationships with very few of you, and while I've formulated opinions on writing styles, I've had no personal bias for or against anyone.
And to me, it appears that PT was being singled out by people who had previous bad experiences with him. While a cumulative effect can (and indeed does) play a part in how one feels about something, it shouldn't be taken into affect for adjudication with regard to something as harmless as a sarcastic comment. This, instead, is called "gunnysacking", or rather, letting negative emotion accumulate to the point where one little thing triggers unreasonable response.
I can understand building a record with someone for personal attacks. I can even understand building one for someone who trolls. But PT is neither, and what he's said has been what some like to term "snarky" - and he is not alone in participating in this form of discourse on this site.
I'm not to say that PT is without blame, though. His writing style, if not viewed with the proper lens, can be rather offputting, and perhaps this needs to be worked on by PT (I have a few suggestions, if interested). But, when I've been taken aback or offended by something I've read via PT or anyone, I've sat back and tried to understand where the person is coming from. PT doesn't use the best communicative language (no I statements, etc), and it can step on some people's toes. But the "spirit of the comment" in question was never meant to do so, and if people could meet him halfway, as well, I think a lot of this would be put to rest. I feel like people see what he says and automatically disregards his opinion with indifference or ire; yet, we expect him to tone down what he says. It's a two way street, guys.
In this case, I don't feel that PT's a victim (even though I am advocating quite strongly for him). However, I do feel rather uncomfortable with this community if we cannot debate arguments with one another. Not trying to instigate a slippery slope argument, but nothing was said to be personal. Nothing was meant to be personal. It was interpreted as such, and I believe PT apologized for that on more than one occasion.
If PT has a past of irritating you; fine. But that shouldn't be taken into account in adjudicating this specific instance - each discourse should be viewed as a separate entity. And I feel like this was not.
And the second strike is rather unsettling, too. That should have been clarified in the email, and hopefully will have a chance to be rescinded.
by noava22 on Feb 8, 2008 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for recognizing this
I'm not trying to portray myself as a victim. I have a thick hide; FSU's tirade honestly made me laugh more than rage. I would infinitely rather nobody got a strike than that both of us did.
I'm not trying to campaign to get the strike reversed. If the powers that be want to, fine, if not, fine. It's just an example that a. I happen to know about, and b. I can talk about without violating someone else's privacy. What I am trying to campaign for is to change the discourse with regard to CGVs around here and, perhaps reaching a bit here, to change the community guidelines themselves to reflect the fact that dispassionate recitation of facts and opinions is not the only way to have an argument.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm shocked
All of this today comes as a major surprise to me. I for one, always look forward to PT's comments, and have never read anything that was remotely deserving of a strike, granted something has happened which I obviously didn't read. I'm reminded of Oaktoon who was run out on a rail or left in frustration, I don't really know, but I do know this, he was always entertaining, always provocative and I never doubted his love for the A's. I enjoy the comments that have some thought in them, and have been researched, however anyone who dares write that kind of thread is bound to be attacked personally which is the sad part of any blog. I take the same position I have always taken, if you don't like what is said, don't read it, and just move on.
by china bob on Feb 8, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How do I know if I don't like it...
until I've read it?
by McFood on Feb 11, 2008 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As you know, Paul,
I tend to side with you more often than many do when these little personality squabbles arise. I remember the thread you cite, and I agree you didn't deserve a strike for it.
That said, I'm struck by this sentence in your post:
Let me tell you, this makes it very difficult to put poorly thought-out arguments to bed, to the point where I frequently don't even bother trying anymore.
If the CGV policy has had that effect on you, I'd say it's working.
It's not necessary for every poorly thought-out argument to be "put to bed". One of the delightful things about baseball fandom is that no harm comes from some fan being utterly wrong. If someone comes on here and insists, say, that BA is a better measure of a hitter than OBP, that's OK.
You can try to enlighten him, but if he is stubborn and refuses to get it, it's perfectly fine for him to continue being unenlightened. And there is no need for anyone to pronounce him a bonehead.
I like your posts, Paul, but when you get in a squabble over a petty issue, they are wasted. Poorly thought-out arguments require no rebuttal from you. I'd much rather see you devote your efforts to debating well thought-out arguments.
by iglew on Feb 8, 2008 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, mdl
(I could stand to remember that sometimes!).
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The existential question of baseball
It's not necessary for every poorly thought-out argument to be "put to bed". One of the delightful things about baseball fandom is that no harm comes from some fan being utterly wrong.
I guess... I mean, put in those terms, no benefit comes from fans being right, either. Which is probably true, but it's kind of a depressing conclusion. I like to think that there's some value in finding the truth and exploring situations.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 3:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One of the truths you can look forward to finding
is the realization that it's OK for other people to be wrong. It's not a depressing conclusion; it's liberating.
If you're like me, you'll find that some time around your mid-30s. I don't know how old you are, but you sound a lot like I did when I was about 24.
by iglew on Feb 8, 2008 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's funny ...
and you were just a bit behind PT in your development if you were 24 when you acted like he does ...
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I found that amusing as well...
as you may have guessed from the above, I'm 23.
Apparently I'm a slightly better "nice guy" prospect than you were, given my age-to-snarkiness-level.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 5:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm reporting you
for re-posting a comment that was found to be in violation of the CVGs.
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um.
What?
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A joke, methinks - once again
battered by the toneless nature of the internet.
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 10:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just messing around.
by methodrampage on Feb 9, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
On the belittling thing
I agree it can be a hazy area, and sometimes just using a big word or indulging in sarcasm can be misconstrued as condescension. On the other hand ... come on.
You know very well that there is a great big wide open space between "toneless statement of facts" and "being an asshole." You also know that it really isn't that difficult to stay comfortably within that vast middle area while still passionately arguing your case. 99% of the community manages this 99% of the time (statistics approximate).
In recent weeks, in fact, you have noticably modulated your tone while still maintaining a healthy posting pace. If this happy medium was so impossible to discern, you'd have had a lot more trouble settling into it, no? Maybe it means you can't pounce disdainfully on every knucklehead comment you see, but hell, is that really such an awful thing?
Plenty of AN contributors "put poorly thought-out arguments to bed" without being excessively aggressive or caustic; it happens all the time, every day, in thread after thread. If you can't manage it, that's your shortcoming. It's not because passion is indistinguishable from rancor and nobody can tell the difference and the rules are unclear and gosh what a conundrum.
(Also: What mdl said.)
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, exactly, exactly -
To me the evidence that the system basically works is that what it almost always does is cause people to adjust their style so as to stay just inside, instead of outside, the acceptable boundaries. Which is all we ask - you don't have to leave, and you don't have to change radically, just change a little so as not to upset people unnecessarily.
From what I hear over and over, there is far less in the way of vicious or insulting discourse on AN compared to on most blogs. And hardly at the expense of spirited conversation or a diverse mix of personalities, from what I see!
But enough about Cindi.
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you can call me gunshy
I agree it can be a hazy area, and sometimes just using a big word or indulging in sarcasm can be misconstrued as condescension. On the other hand ... come on.
since every single freaking time I do something like this, it seems like, I get hammered for it.
If this happy medium was so impossible to discern, you'd have had a lot more trouble settling into it, no? Maybe it means you can't pounce disdainfully on every knucklehead comment you see, but hell, is that really such an awful thing?
Speaking from personal experience here, it's not a "happy medium" to be constantly looking over my shoulder for the speech police. It's a profoundly irritating, much less enjoyable medium. I dunno, maybe people other than me are now prancing around with glee that they can post without the horrible fear of me swooping down on them and drinking their blood. In which case, it's probably ultimately to the good. I haven't exactly seen a lot of evidence of this being the case.
It's not because passion is indistinguishable from rancor and nobody can tell the difference and the rules are unclear and gosh what a conundrum.
OK. I've received two CGV strikes. I, personally, know that my comments were not motivated by "rancor."
So, you can choose to believe one of two things. One, that I'm a bald-faced liar. Or two, that passion is apparently indistinguishable from rancor after all.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Only two options?
Decisions decisions...
Seriously though, what's with the pity party? You feel like every time you do a certain something you get hammered for it. Here's a thought, stop doing that certain something. "Hey, it was meant as a joke!" If no one laughs maybe it's not a very good joke. Eventually, if you keep telling the same joke and no one ever laughs you should probably pull it from your routine.
That's not an issue of violating free speech, its accepting that what you're trying to say isn't carrying to the masses as you wish it would.
I understand that you don't like the idea of looking over your shoulder when you write. Well, maybe your style needs that kind of outside editorial overview to smooth out your message. What's more important to you, getting the point of your message across or saying whatever you want however you want?
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Truthfully, the single most common
conversation I have with junior high kids when there's a conflict starts with "I was just kidding," or "I meant it as a joke"...
The fact is that for every CGV committed, at least 10 go unreported, often by the same users, so if you are reported chances are that:
a. your comment was especially offensive or
b. you have crossed the line enough times that the odds caught up with you or
c. you have crossed the line enough times that the community has finally tired of your act (pardon the inflammatory reference!)
It's like making rolling stops at a stop sign - the more you do it the more likely you'll finally get caught, and the more blatantly you do it the more likely the cop will nab you for it, and when you get caught chances are it wasn't the very first time you did it.
PaulThomas, I believe that the "strikes" you were given probably weren't for exactly the right comments - that your history, at that point, of burning bridges created a straw that broke the camel's back. But since "strike two" you have gone from a user whose comments I dread to one whose comments I appreciate. So even in a possible mistake, something went right in the process. For you and the community both.
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not comfortable with this part.
PaulThomas, I believe that the "strikes" you were given probably weren't for exactly the right comments - that your history, at that point, of burning bridges created a straw that broke the camel's back. But since "strike two" you have gone from a user whose comments I dread to one whose comments I appreciate. So even in a possible mistake, something went right in the process. For you and the community both.
You just admitted the strikes "probably" weren't valid for the reported comments. Then the committee wasn't as fair-minded as you have touted it to be. IMO that means that they did not make their decision on the comments Paul made without prejudice. IMO that means something went very very wrong and to say it went right is you putting a spin on a very unfair situation. Committee people what the heck were you thinking when you issued Paul those strikes? If you have thought better of your decision please do the right thing and correct it. Standing by the decision made isn't a virtue when it's wronged someone . My two cents.
by IM4Oakgal on Feb 8, 2008 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all ALL what I'm trying to say
I'm not the sub-committee - the sub-committee was absolutely fair-minded in making a decision they thought was right at the time, and may still think was right, I don't know. I'm saying that in hindsight, the comment in question, if just zoomed in on and seen without context, does not appear to ME to be a CGV.
However, I don't think it's bias if the sub-committee saw, as I did, reportable comment after reportable comment (that went unreported) and then when finally given a complaint, looked at the comments in totality - even if only the last one was the one reported and wasn't the worst comment by any stretch - hence the "straw that broke the camel's back" analogy. It may constitute a good ruling, it may constitute a bad ruling, but it's not bias.
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmn
"Absolutely fair-minded ". You declared it so it must be true! C'mon Nico. Bottom line is...Paul rubbed a couple of admins and popular posters the wrong way with his writing style. I read AN every day and I did not feel his comments directed to you in previous threads were so horrible. But in the thread in question You (and BBG) came down hard on Paul instead of FSU and that fact along with FSU's popularity was most likely a contributing factor in Paul getting two CGVs at once.(one retro-active for Kriminy sake). Sort of a "yeah well we will hold our noses and give FSU a strike but we will give Paul two!"
I think I am done discussing this with you in this public forum as the remarks we would exchange would not be productive at any level. We see this situation very differently. You see it from a participatory viewpoint and I see it from the perspective of a spectator who enjoys reading You, FSU and Paul. I have no ax to grind with any of you.
by IM4Oakgal on Feb 9, 2008 4:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree we can't discuss this further -
The corrections I would have to make to help get your perceptions to match mine would not be appropriate to make publicly (or even privately to an AN user). Let's leave it.
by Nico on Feb 9, 2008 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Think of it as my version of "accumulated small irritations leading to a disproportionately peevish reply." I've held my tongue for a month. The topic came up again.
I understand that you don't like the idea of looking over your shoulder when you write. Well, maybe your style needs that kind of outside editorial overview to smooth out your message.
Does yours? I view the two as essentially identical.
What's more important to you, getting the point of your message across or saying whatever you want however you want?
If it's a diary? Or a position paper? Obviously the former. Random comment? Uh, probably the latter, to be honest.
At this point, I'm going to break off talking about my private issues. I think I've made my plaint.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
My style does need an outside check. I'm much more vulgar then I come across on AN, I personally believe that at least 1/3 of Life's problems can be handled by saying "Fuck it" and moving on. My original tagline was "I'm a ray of fucking sunshine" and most agreed it fit me nicely.
I still haven't found an adequate replacement tag IMO.
But I was asked, more then once, to tone down the language. 'Tis a family site and all that. So I did.
I also learned from real world experience that my sense of humor could unintentionally hurt the feelings of other people and I am EXTREMELY careful with who I joke around with on AN.
I find it much more important to get my message across then to stroke my ego.
Our styles may be similiar, but our reputations are not. My rep (mostly deserved) is that I don't take the first shot. Someone throws a gauntlet at me and I respond with the kitchen sink. That probably buys me a little slack. Throw in some general apathy towards reporting CGV's and here I sit without any active strikes. You don't have that reputation. You come across as attacking without provocation... and the other person saying something you disagree with does not count as provocation. Whether or not you feel that rep is undeserved does not matter, the perception exists.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well.
I won't go point by point, because I can tell the rabbit hole is not too far away. I'll just say a few quick things:
1] I really enjoy 95% of your posts. I'm glad you write as much as you do.
2] Sometimes you are unnecessarily asshole-ish.
3] It is very difficult to never, ever lapse into unnecessarily asshole-ishness.
4] It is not, however, difficult to keep unnecessarily asshole-ishness to a minimum.
5] Non-asshole-ishness should not impinge upon your ability to effectively counter unsound arguments.
6] You do a much better job of #4 recently. I think probably lots of people appreciate that. And I'll bet it's really not so dramatic and excruciating as you make it out to be.
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, even if it could be seen
as being assholier than thou. OK fine, I just wanted to say "assholier than thou" - so sue me.
<retains lawyer>
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 5:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
As I said, I don't want to continue turning this thread into "PT psychoanalysis hour."
I have to ask, though-- what on earth do you mean about a rabbit hole?
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But Paul, how does that make you feel?
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
3 more
7] I still think you knew it was Scarlett Johansson all along.
8] link
9] If I'm going to assholishly chide you for assholishness, I should probably not undermine my argument with terrible grammar, as above.
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 5:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we just all agree ...
Scarlett Johansson is hot?
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I swear I didn't...
In truth, this probably speaks more to my esteem of Katherine Heigl than it does about Scarlett Johansson.
I mean, she near-singlehandedly carried me through like 3 and a half seasons of "Grey's Anatomy," before a combination of the show moving to Thursdays and becoming unwatchably bad finally cured me of the habit.
I probably shouldn't be revealing this factoid.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you are a Katherine Heigl fan,
Knocked Up is a reasonably engaging way to spend a couple of hours.
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Saw it, natch
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said elsewhere
I disagree with #4. It is difficult. Maybe it's not for you, but don't assume your experience is universal.
by iglew on Feb 8, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're wrong, and I hate you.
No, I understand what you're getting at in your response to PT below. Believe me, I've uttered many a sarcastic gem (or so I thought) that sounded a lot different to the other person than it did inside my head. I also know many people mistakenly perceive erudition as arrogance ("my argument was stupid, yours was smart, ergo you're a condescending bully"). I also understand the compulsion to correct obvious inanities, and the frustration that builds when the inanity-spewer clings, with increasing stridency, to some obviously inaccurate or silly claim ... it's an infuriating cycle, to be sure.
So I agree it can be hard, to a point. And certainly the younger you are, the harder it is, because it feels like your ego is at stake in every single interaction.
I'd say it's hard in the way that successfully spreading peanut butter on untoasted bread is hard, not in the way that, say, becoming a scratch golfer is hard.
by 74mk on Feb 8, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth, PT,
I know exactly what you mean about not wanting to have to be "looking over your shoulder", and I know what it feels like to have people think you're being obnoxious and attacking them when you really don't feel like you are at all.
I disagree with 74mk when he says it's not that hard to tone it down. No, it is hard, when you're just being yourself, speaking earnestly and in good faith, and when you cause offense it's not only unintentional but you really don't even understand why the other person is upset. I get that. It took me half my life to become comfortable debating in a forum without inadvertently irritating someone (especially a certain sort of someone), and even now I still get in trouble sometimes. So no, I don't think it's an easy lesson to learn. It's a hard lesson, but it's a good one.
One suggestion that I think will help you in the immediate term: I don't know exactly what comments of yours were reported for strikes, but I strongly suspect that the ones that turn people against you -- both reported and unreported -- are the squabbles that go back and forth several times. You know, where someone says something and you respond, then he responds back getting in another little dig, so you feel like you need to set the record straight, and then he does it again, and it goes on and on answering every point until the argument collapses from exhaustion.
Those are the ones you need to let go of. At any given point in the conversation there's going to be something the other guy has said that feels like it shouldn't go unanswered. Maybe he said something about you that's unfair. And maybe it is unfair, but the reality is you're not going to make it any better by correcting the record.
I don't know poker well enough to make the perfect metaphor, but surely there's a situation where at each step you're facing a loss that you don't feel like you should have to concede, since you didn't do anything wrong, but if you stick around it's not going to get any better, so better to just let it go and move on to the next hand. Maybe it'll help if you think of it like that.
by iglew on Feb 8, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I just figure you should look at it ...
as if you are at a party, thrown by someone you don't want to offend. You have a few good friends at the party, a few people you know passingly and a bunch of people you just met.
It's a pretty simple analogy ... and I think a pretty accurate one ... I assume we all get invited to enough parties that it we've figured out how to continue to get invited to parties.
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 5:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
You underestimate my antisociality...
(Actually, it's mostly because virtually none of my friends live within two hundred miles of here. At least, that's what I tell myself before turning the Sharks game on on Friday night.)
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, well ...
think of it as good practice for a time in your life when people invite you to parties ...
by devo on Feb 8, 2008 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hugh...
First I find out you've been "promoted" to a job in which you have no actual duties, and now I learn that all your friends have moved two hundred miles away from you. Now I find out that societies of anonymous internet strangers are banding together to persecute you! ;)
We can't be done finding out what's wrong with you just yet! Seriously though, there's nothing factually wrong with your arguments. Your only flaw is your delivery. You insist on including the person holding the contrary opinion as imbecilic as the opinion itself. All you need to do to avoid hostilities is separate the two. In other words, avoid personal pronouns at all costs when attacking an opinion. Your troubles will be mostly behind you.
You're very easy to bait into a pointless argument. I did it once when you were fairly new. I could have cared less about whatever it was we were talking about...I was only interested in seeing how far down the executioners path you were willing to wander. You, my friend, are one of those rare souls who would argue knots with the hangman. Do you know why so many really smart people end up in trouble? Because they wont shut their mouths. Seriously, it's like a disease with them.
by alox on Feb 9, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put -
though I have to defend anyone who argues knots with a hangman, if the knots are truly done poorly. Employees need constructive criticism or they won't improve their work for the next job. And I could be the next customer; in fact it's likely.
by Nico on Feb 9, 2008 10:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A benefit of occupation
in being a hangman....there's almost never any negative feedback. One has to assume the customer, however displeased with the service being provided, can't argue the outcome. Sure, there's the occasional "F*&^k You" till you come to the end of your rope....but that's about it. Employee evaluations must be a breeze.
by alox on Feb 10, 2008 5:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Reminds me of a joke about union scabbing
(which is to say, when one union cooperates with "the man" to the detriment of other unions) related by Utah Phillips.
A man is about to be hanged, but as the hangman is putting the noose around the accused's neck, he says conversationally "You know, I know you're about to be hanged and probably not in the best mood right now. But if it's any consolation, this scaffold was erected by union carpenters, this rope was made by union rope-makers, and here, sir, is my card!"
I'm not sure if that's relevant in any way, but I did think it was kind of funny.
I do have SOME duties at my job now... so at least that "problem" has abated a bit.
As far as personalizing arguments goes, while you may be right in the broader scheme of things, I feel obliged to point out that the comment in question in the Swisher thread did nothing of the sort.
by PaulThomas on Feb 10, 2008 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hm... an unfortunate choice of metaphor
In poker, there are actually situations where you have to make bad bets because you've already committed so much to the pot.
Simple example: there's been a lot of betting. The pot has $100 in it. My opponent bets $10. I have a hand which has, say, a 1 in 5 chance of drawing the winning card on the last round. (Let's assume it's a four-card flush, and I have to draw the fifth.) The other 4 times, I'm virtually certain to lose.
I still have to call the bet, even though I'm likely throwing my $10 away, because the amount of money in the pot makes taking the gamble on that card worth it.
Now, if you're SURE that you're going to lose, betting more becomes throwing good money after bad, and is a bad idea. But sometimes you have to bet based on the potential winnings when they outweigh the poor odds of success.
Nevertheless, I see your point. I just wanted to digress about poker for a bit.
by PaulThomas on Feb 8, 2008 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess that makes sense
in a know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em sense. it's why i hardly participate in the debates about the current state of the team. i might as well just hand you my money (back to poker). yeah i have my opinion on many things baseball, but the days of keeping up with the likes of you have long passed me by. so now i just sit in the corner with my beer and watch the action from afar. and stick to what i do know, which apparently is ancient history.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 8, 2008 6:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
PT is one of the most
letting-it-go of all the posters here.
by salb918 on Feb 9, 2008 4:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is CGV anything like HPV?
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 11:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
No, but you can get it from a potty mouth.
by salb918 on Feb 8, 2008 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Aparently
you need to be carefull with belittleing people.
by methodrampage on Feb 8, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
wait wait don't tell me.
by ak_A on Feb 8, 2008 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To Poppy, sorry, it's been a while so I forgot
this wasn't apparent without re-explanation: At the time the sub-committee was formed I believe there was a system in place rating users/comments and that Blez was able to gauge the pulse of the community as well as his own instincts and experiences.
To FreeSeatUpgrade, I whole-heartedly agree that a statute of limitations is important and I know the sub-committee declined to issue a "strike" at least one time that I can remember because members agreed the complaint hadn't been made in a timely manner but rather in response to being reported. Perhaps a statute should be added to the stated CGs - although sometimes "time" isn't the only or best measure; still it's one solid measure. So point well taken.
As for allowing a "strikee" to sumbit a written "hey I don't think this was a correct ruling because...", again perhaps this could be formally added to the CGs but it has always been the case informally - this is not a "big business," it's a few committed (or we should be, arguably) folks trying to get it right and occasionally goofing. If a good argument is made in reply, the committee will always reconsider a ruling - as it did with HollywoodOz when he replied to a "strike" and asked for reconsideration. (He emailed me and I passed it on to the sub-committee, and a clear majority agreed with him.)
Anyway, some excellent ideas for tweaking and improving the system are being made on this thread, which is why I think it's important to open the can of worms once a year - thank you all who are offering constructive suggestions. They will not be ignored. (I'm not saying "they will be implemented" because I don't have sole authority to decide that.)
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Oh,
When a user is given a "strike" or "warning," he/she receives an email (from me) that states what the offending comment was and which part of the Community Guidelines it violated.
Thats what your emails were about? I deleted them before reading, figured it was you wanting money from me again.
by ak_A on Feb 8, 2008 2:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
No, I use carrier pigeons for that
But they seem to freeze to death before they get to you. :-(
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was one of the 23.....
because of my anti-Cust rhetoric. committee defending steroid users, go figure ;)
by athleticsBB4life on Feb 8, 2008 3:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Not that odd, considering they're all on steroids
by Nico on Feb 8, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
For reals?
is this for real, or is this a joke over my head. This is more complicated than the California penal code. From now on, all my posts will go through my lawyer and I will give him a copy of the guidelines.
vr, Xei
by xeifrank on Feb 8, 2008 5:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
You might also consider
Giving your posts to a ghost writer to spruce them up or maybe a comedian to make them funny.
by grover on Feb 8, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to say that...
even though I have criticised the committee in regard to the PT situation I really do appreciate the service of the people on it. It takes some good souls to put up with all of this criticism especially when the time involved is volunteered. A Thankless job in some ways. so...Thank You for doing this service and taking on a responsibility that most of us would not want to do.
by IM4Oakgal on Feb 8, 2008 8:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm surprised I haven't recieved a strike yet.
Maybe my junk mail filter isn't allowing Nico's notification to make it to my inbox. Oh crap! I might be on my second strike right now!
by Jeremy Belvins on Feb 8, 2008 9:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
IMO the "Disciplinary Process" here is . . .
generously elaborate. The USS Mariner guideline is pretty much what I would expect. Anything more than that is gravy.
I don't post here much or really ever (I primarily ride the short bus that is GSoM), but I have been reading AN regularly since the Hudson and Mulder trades and I have to say that you have an uncommonly high level of civilized discourse for a sports blog.
The CGV process is, by my observation, almost unnecessary at this point given the general quality of most your posts. To me it makes sense to just delete posts/diaries that are inappropriate. Send repeat offenders an e-mail or just delete their UID. The fact that AN even has a "judicial branch" kind of seems like overkill to me. IMO, you're lucky to have it at all instead of being at the mercy of an individual's whim.
Just an "outsider's" perspective . . .
by bloodsweatndonuts on Feb 8, 2008 10:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Me neither - thanks, bloodsweatndonuts
We go overboard to be unnecessarily fair and the result is an unusually high level of respectful discourse. And we will keep trying to make it more fair.
by Nico on Feb 9, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
For all your hardwork, time and effort in making "us" the number one fan blog on the net. It is always comforting to know that there is a place for us crazy A's fans to congregate and encourage each other on those cold lonely nights when the fog rolls in and obscures the view of bad baseball and to celebrate when our bunch of misfits overperform this season.
by since72 on Feb 9, 2008 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs






















