Go The Distance
No, I’m not referring to some cryptic Fields of Dreams line that’s going to get me united with my Dad from the great beyond (damn that movie for making me cry every single time I watch it). I’m talking about Billy Beane and his systematic disassembling of this roster.
The further deconstruction of this team continued yesterday with the A’s letting Esteban Loaiza jet for Southern California and the LA Dodgers. There was quite a bit of (at times) heated discussion yesterday over whether Beane let Loaiza go for nothing in order to have an under-the-table agreement to get someone like Andy LaRoche on the cheap during the offseason knowing that there was no way that LaRoche would pass through waivers. I personally think that Beane will probably wind up getting someone from the Dodgers this upcoming offseason, I’m just not sure who it will be. I don’t anticipate it being anyone of great value because it's obvious that the A’s are just trying to dump salary right now.
But Beane shouldn’t stop until the team is really gutted of its higher priced players. I mean seriously. I never thought I’d say that, especially with a team that went to the ALCS last season, but Beane is at his very best when he’s trying to unearth players that no one else wants or believes is for real. Witness Jack Hannahan. This is a guy who can clearly hit. Yes, he’s only played 16 games with the A’s and small sample size and all, but this guy almost has as many walk off hits as Eric Chavez has now for his career. I’m not about to pronounce him the second coming and frankly, his defense is a little scary over there especially after watching Eric Chavez man the hot corner for so many years. But Hannahan is proving that there is life A.C. (after Chavez). I’m not willing to bank on it because we don’t know enough about Hannahan long-term to know that he’s going to be a good ML third baseman. The thing that the Hannahan experiment (and Chad Gaudin before that) is proving is that Beane can be an absolute master when he lifts up the rocks to see what he might find underneath.
I think the A’s clung to Jason Kendall in fear that they wouldn’t have anyone to replace that “leadership”. Never mind the fact that the offensive production out of that spot was a meager .542 OPS. Kurt Suzuki has put up a .791 OPS in August. Course Kendall that idiot has a .919 OPS in August. But that’s not important. I’m just glad that we’re turning the page on these things.
But don’t stop with Bradley, Kennedy, Kendall and Loaiza. Go the distance. Piazza (although he’s gone after the year any way), Chavez, Kotsay, Dan Johnson and Crosby should all be considered candidates for the clean sweep. I mean if you’re going to start over then really start over. We know what to expect from those A’s. Let’s see what these A’s can do.
As an aside, but relevant to this discussion, I imagine that the A’s really want Rich Harden to come back for September because they need to figure out whether or not Harden will ever be healthy enough to be productive. Or maybe they’re just trying to get some trade value generated for him going into the offseason. Regardless, they need to figure out what they have so they can plan accordingly for the rotation for 2008.
But the A’s have essentially cleared out a ton of salary by dumping Kendall, Kennedy, Loaiza and Bradley. The only problem is that only Loaiza had a contract that would’ve brought him back next year so it’s essentially cost cutting for this season alone. Guys with the bigger and longer-term contracts haven’t really been moved and it’s probably making them much hard to move. Still, it would be nice if the A’s continue to just push forward and decide to give younger guys more opportunity. Perhaps the team can continue to unearth gems.
So just do it, Billy. Go the distance.
0 recs |
151 comments
Comments
agreed on everyone ... except DJ
And possibly Crosby.
DJ's still cheap, he can always draw walks with a little bit of power, he plays a more than adequate 1B (I think the jury's still out whether his or Swisher's complementary defensive shortcomings are worse), and he still has options. Once Barton's up next year, warehouse DJ in Sacto as a backup plan.
And Crosby's still a relative bargain and plays excellent defense. Improve the lineup significantly in other areas to where Cros is batting 8 or 9, and he's totally worth hanging on to.
'Course, if someone backs up the Brinks truck for either of 'em, they're welcome to 'em -- but is that really gonna happen?
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 9:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DJ is out of options...
...thankfully. They can't store him in Sacramento (or Stockton).
And really now, for three years running it's been the same deal with this guy: a very hot streak at one point, followed by months of weak grounders to the right side, called third strikes with runners on in scoring position, and walks. Walks aren't bad, but they don't drive in runs unless the bases are loaded.
DJ is the epitome of a AAAA player.
by Dr Pez on Aug 30, 2007 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops
Thanks for the correction.
In that case ... might as well DFA him, eh?
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Release him...
...I can't see why another team would give anything of value for DJ now. Maybe a bottom feeder would sign him as a free agent, but that's it.
In 2007 Carlos Pena finally has become the player that he was advertised to be, what's five years among friends?
by Dr Pez on Aug 30, 2007 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not out of options
He used options in 2005 and 2006. He still has one remaining.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish he'd take the option of...
...hitting consistently.
That'd be a good option for him to use.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Barton will be ready for next year.
His OPS is around .830 right now. I'd like to see Swisher at first with a still-cheap DJ as backup/PH. This would free up room in the outfield to either add a free agent bat or at least give guys like Denorfia and Snelling a closer look.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proposed New Rule
The A's have to dump anyone that is 30 or older as of January 1. The only real losses would be Duke and Ellis. I like both of them, but Duke has a 70-year-old woman's hip and Ellis is replaceable.
When asked about the decisions to dump Kotsay, Chavez, Duke, Ellis, Calero, Scutaro, DaVanon, and Embree, Forst can say "we're just trying to make room for the kids".
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 9:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not Ellis! OK I admit he's my favorite
A's player. But I think Ellis is one of those players who adds far more to the team than the numbers show. I would keep him, unless of course someone offered an unbelievable deal.
by alamedaman on Aug 30, 2007 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him too
but a rule is a rule <strict catholic upbringing rears its head>!
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Curse of the bobblehead!
by McFood on Aug 30, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis stays
Defense and an ok bat...he adds a lot by saving runs.
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2007 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Oh, Mark...

...is your palmflower flashing?"
by Nick on Aug 30, 2007 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden has already shown us he can't go a full
season, or even close to it. It's a sad thing, but he's Mark Pryor or Kerry Wood--great promise but consistently on the injury list. But of course that is no secret, so his trade potential is greatly limited by that. Let him go if you get something worthwhile, otherwise he's going to be our Kerry Wood for a number of years.
by alamedaman on Aug 30, 2007 9:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree, coming back in September
will tell the A's nothing about Harden in 2008 (they did this last year).
by OaklandSi on Aug 30, 2007 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might it not
make him more tradeable in the off-season?
by kkdaz on Aug 30, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not after several years of injuries.
Right now, he's got pre-season 2006 Frank Thomas value.
Well, not that little, but close. Might as well hang on to him, see if he can string three months together, and if he does, break the Mets' bank.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRoche
I agree with those who think letting Loaiza go so easily to the Dodgers might lead to some quid pro quo down the line ... but to imagine that the quo is going to be Andy LaRoche is pure let's-trade-Crosby-for-Pujols type fantasy.
Maybe Loaiza is the favor that opens the door to further trades with the Dodgers, but he's not the trade itself. If we want LaRoche, we're going to have to give up something valuable for him, and Loaiza isn't it.
by iglew on Aug 30, 2007 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No one's suggesting
that there's going to be a LaRoche-for-cash deal or something stupid like that in the offseason, only that this might be part of the deal. The other part consisting of players who won't clear waivers.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, Crosby for Pujols would be awesome.
That said, Crosby for Jeff Reboulet would work for me.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crosby for a new pair of trainers?
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think someone
would give the pair for him? I was hoping to get one, preferably the left for me, and maybe ask for a POSTBNL (pair of socks to be named later). I want some of those '70's basketball player jobs.
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES! But wait on Ellis
The A's have an option on Ellis for '08. Take it and then trade him before the deadline. He'll be 31 years old at that point and will have probably peaked. Let some other team take diminishing returns from him and the A's receive a prospect of some kind in return.
Dump Crosby.
Finally let go of Chavez. Love the guy, but he can't stay healthy, doesn't hit all that well, even when healthy, and probably won't get any better the higher the odometer gets.
I forget what Duke's contract situation is, but with the emergence of so much pitching talent this season (thanks to so many injuries), I'd count him as expendable since he could net the A's a fair prospect in return.
by bzn5150 on Aug 30, 2007 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not emerging talent in the BP
Seems like the Pen has been a wreck many a time.
Duke used to be the guy going 3 innings in extras, or bridging to the closer. Him healthy saves 15 important runs a year.
by MobiusKlein on Aug 30, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm shocked we couldn't get more for Loiza
at this point in the season. The guy looks great obviously in his first two starts, and what an addition that would be to a team in the hunt. And of course he has a good career record, so it's not like he's a flash in the pan. But, obviously Bean is the man here--I'm sure there is something behind all of this that we don't yet know.
by alamedaman on Aug 30, 2007 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
25 teams passed on him
He was passed on by contending teams with starting pitching needs. That tells me that the Dodgers' willingness to take on his salary was the best offer out there.
by NoeValley on Aug 30, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
25 teams passed on him, then he passed at 155mph.
Slightly tipsy.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point. this whole process is very much
a free market. smart GM's who do this for a living decided that they didn't want to give up key prospects to have Loiza for a pennant run. he is just not worth as much as I thought,,,
by alamedaman on Aug 30, 2007 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should start a diary.
by McFood on Aug 30, 2007 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep Chavez
get rid of Kotsay.
The A's, as of right now, are already way under budget. They don't need to drastically shred salary anymore and rid themselves of decent players that are overpriced. They do need to rid themselves of dead weight that have no future (Kotsay).
Take a look at the 2008 Payroll. You'll see that they are already way under budget. The A's have a free $20M they could spend, if they want, and they could use it all on just one rental.
- Eric Chavez, 3B: $11M
- Mark Kotsay, CF: $8M
- Mark Ellis, 2B: $5M
- Rich Harden, SP: $4.5M
- Dan Haren, SP: $4M
- Bobby Crosby, SS: $3.5M
- Nick Swisher, OF/1B: $3.5M
- Alan Embree, RP: $3M
- Kiko Calero, RP: $2M*
- Justin Duchscherer, RP: $2M*
- Joe Blanton, SP: $1M*
- Chad Gaudin, SP: $1M*
- Huston Street, RP: $1M*
- Dan Johnson, 1B: $1M*
- Rob Bowen, C: $0.4M*
- Kurt Suzuki, C: $.38M
- Travis Buck, OF: $.38M
- Jack Cust, OF/DH: $.38M
- Andrew Brown, RP: $.38M
- Santiago Casilla, RP: $.38M
- Jay Marshall, RP: $.38M
- Jack Hannahan, 3B: $.38M
- Donnie Murphy, IF: $.38M
- Daric Barton, DH/1B: $.38M
- Lenny DiNardo, SP: $.38M
----------------------------------
Total Payroll: ~$54.7 Million
2007 Payroll: ~$74.0 Million
- = arbitration elligible, estimated contract
Yeah, Chavez is the highest paid player, but it does no good to trade him now or in the offseason when his value is at the lowest. He still has a few years left on his deal, so there's plenty of time to move him.
Kotsay, on the other hand, has no value and you can't see his value really improving. He's not going to hit .300 again, he's not going to provide great defense again, and his back is going to continue to flare up. Get rid of his $8M ASAP, leaving you with $28M you could or could not spend.
Get Mike Cameron and Tomohiro Nioka (only if the A's think they can contend in 2008) and call it an offseason.
by black beane and rice on Aug 30, 2007 9:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I notice that Scutaro isn't there
it's likely that they won't re-sign him -- but at this point we certainly don't know that for sure.
also, I'm wondering why both Barton and DJ are on that list...and Marshall may well get the minor league time he needs in 2008, since the A's won't be obligated to keep him on the 25-man roster or risk losing him.
by OaklandSi on Aug 30, 2007 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
picking nits
Barton will be there. Whether or not DJ will be there is another question, but it's not like the A's are going to bring in someone that costs a lot more than him. Just using him as a space filler.
Same with Marshall. The A's might go with another LOOGY (Flores perhaps), but it wouldn't be someone detrimental to the payroll.
As far as Scutaro goes, he'll probably get somewhere between $1M-$2M. They have no need for him.
by black beane and rice on Aug 30, 2007 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you so sure Barton will be here?
He's fallen off quite a bit since his hot July. He's only 22 and looks like he could use another year in Sacto. I'd like to see Swish at first next year, but at this point I'd still take DJ over Barton - not that DJ inspires me with a great deal of confidence, but at least he's capable of putting up a 900 OPS in AAA, something Barton is still quite far off of. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Barton if we can package him with one of our albatross contracts.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
again, picking nits
either Barton or DJ will be here. Personally, I'd prefer having both here. Billy Beane, on the other hand, would probably love to get rid of DJ and give Barton a chance.
Either way, we're talking about the difference of a million dollars and nitpicking over which minimally paid players will be on the roster clearly wasn't the point of my message.
by black beane and rice on Aug 30, 2007 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you here
but pairing prospects with albatross contracts and, thus, giving away talent to save money is exactly what pathetic losing franchises like KC and Florida do. I do NOT want the A's to start emulating those models.
I'm not opposed to trading Barton in principle, but I would be implacably hostile to the notion of trading him just to be rid of Kotsay's salary.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All the pieces just don't quite fit together yet
Just like Oakland now.
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swisher is a better first baseman.
Barton is currently posting a line of 292/390/442/832 with 9 HR. The OBP is great and the rest is not bad, and as has been oft said, at 22 he has time to develop. Nevertheless, there's no guarantee he'll develop power or that he'll become the type of "pure hitter" (whatever that is) for which we're all hoping.
Because FA prices are so high, high level prospects are more valuable than ever, and fewer teams are willing to let theirs go. Its possible Barton could be worth more in a trade than a Loaiza or even a Crosby or a Chavez to a team looking to get young and cheap. We already have Swisher to play first. It might make sense to deal Barton for a prospect at non-premium offensive position (ie centerfield) considering he's not as good as Swisher and possibly not even as good as Johnson. Alternatively, dealing him as part of a salary dump would free up more payroll to pursue a CF or SS.
I don't think such a move would turn us into a KC, as we currently have two 1Bs above Barton on the depth chart. One is pretty good and the other is passable. Which KC/Florida deals are you referring to specifically?
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kind of thinking of the Lowell/Beckett deal
Obviously Beckett by himself was more than good enough to obtain even highly touted prospects. They probably could have gotten more out of Boston, but they had to get out from under Mike Lowell's contract (in their minds).
Again, I'm in no sense against trading Barton per se. But I don't see why he's in any kind of conflict with Swisher, whose offense is a lot more attractive in RF (where it's excellent) than at 1B (where it's merely somewhat above average). That's a false dichotomy. The A's need players who can HIT, and as many of them as possible. Not more of these iffy-offense-good-defense types like Kotsay and Crosby. I'd much rather he be traded for someone like Wlady Balentien or Nate Schierholtz than another one of these glove dudes like Jacoby Ellsbury.
And people need to get over these romantic notions about "payroll flexibility." Payroll flexibility is only an asset if there's something worthwhile to spend your money on. This upcoming season, which is the only one in which Kotsay's contract is even relevant, there isn't. (A-Rod excepted, and they already have enough money to sign him if they really want to.) I don't want to trade Barton away to sign a new CF. Free agents are expensive disasters when they don't work out. Even someone like Grady Sizemore would be a huge risk, and the available crop has no one even close to his level.
The A's burning talent to get rid of Kotsay's contract is akin to selling that talent off, which is the absolute last thing they should be doing. "Investing" that $8 million in a cheap Daric Barton for 6 years is an infinitely superior idea to cashing it in.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sox gave up Hanley Ramirez in that deal.
The guy who's better than Jose Reyes, but never gets talked about.
by jeepers on Aug 30, 2007 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
but irrelevant. The Marlins could have gotten even more.
Besides, top prospect or no, nobody at the time knew how good a hitter he was going to be.
He gets talked about less because he's more one-dimensional (and doesn't play in New York). All the traditionalists love Reyes because he steals a lot and plays great D. Hanley is a pretty lousy shortstop defensively.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One dimensional?
.331/.388/.557 23 HRs, 42 SB
He's a butcher with the glove, but he has every dimension covered on offense.
by devo on Aug 30, 2007 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably better suited to play another position
He seems like a BJ Upton-type guy who'd be better as an outfielder. 42 steals says he's obviously pretty fast. But I really haven't seen him play enough to get a read on what ails him defensively.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They did
They also got Annibal Sanchez in that deal, who was a stud until he got hurt this year.
by nothinlikethetown on Aug 30, 2007 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Scoot but he is good as gone
next year.
I can't remember him making as many errors as he's made this year. And at $2.2m, he can be replaced with one of the youngsters.
by sf drift king on Aug 31, 2007 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez needs to go
The A's just cannot afford to pay $11 million to a guy who is a below average hitter and perennially (yes, I think we can say that now) injured, great glove or no. The A's will never have a good offense so long as Chavez is the best hitter in the line-up. And if he gets paid $11 million we just have that much less money to find a couple of guys who are better hitters.
by oakfan2000 on Aug 30, 2007 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what you dont seem to understand
is that, for next year at least, the A's can in fact afford to pay Chavez $11M and go out and sign a couple of bats with the $20M free money they have. And that's assuming they don't increase payroll.
Use one more year to see what Chavez can do. The A's can afford it. His value is already as low as it can be, so why try to get rid of him now when you can afford to see another season of him?
by black beane and rice on Aug 30, 2007 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If pressed between paying that money to Chavez...
...or going out and getting a second free agent power-hitter, I'll take the latter option.
Hell, I'd give that money to Bradley before I'd give it to Chavez. At least with Bradley, when he's actually healthy, he can hit a walk-off.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez' value has reduced every year since 2003!
Holding on to him for another season to 'wait for his value to rise' is like holding on to the six condos you bought and renovated last October because 'the market is down'.
It ain't getting any less down any time soon.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Tom Vu.
by McFood on Aug 30, 2007 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
problem with trading Chavez is
that we'll likely have to pay part of his salary. I can't imagine any team taking on a long-term contract for a below-average hitter with a bad back.
That said, the best thing that could happen is for the Yankees to lose A-Rod and need a 3rd baseman.
by JJ on Aug 30, 2007 10:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hm
Can Shelley Duncan play third?
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were content with Aaron Boone...
...my guess is they'd be content with DJ playing there.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm talking about for the A's
i.e. indirectly suggesting a Duncan-for-Chavez swap.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck getting Duncan from NY
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying DJ for Duncan as a swap.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i assume you're refering to this Alex Gordon
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0329966/
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas City's Golden Boy is exactly
how Chavez started out with the A's.
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Two Cents
With a limited budget, in a pitchers park, it makes sense to concentrate on on pitching and defense at the sacrifice of some power, like Beane always does and tried to do this year. But, the A's can't afford to sacrifice defense for power. That's where they went wrong this year.
The A's can do well with a number of inexpensive low VORP hitters with strong defense and mediocre offense as long as they have a couple of power stars that don't hurt the defense. Last year Frank Thomas carried the load, this year injuries destroyed the plan, but it was very close.
I don't think the A's are that far away from having a successful team.
by photonload on Aug 30, 2007 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
what's so great about slashing payroll?
We're all thinking along the same lines I think. The ship sailed and we're looking at how to get good again inlight of this roster overhaul.
As black beane and rice pointed out, Kotsay is the real dead weight remaining. Harden, Cros, and Chavez are maybe making more money than we'd like given their likely performance going forward, but it's not tragic by any means.
So,how much salary are you willing to eat on Kotsay? Is there another overpriced player we have to take instead of Kotsay? Do we really want to pay him $8M to sit on another team's bench?
And then? This year's free agent crop is pretty lackluster. Jones or Hunter? Will there be a trade made to acquire a good guy but at a high salary number?
But this isn't the NBA. Teams can spend what they desire. There is nothing wonderful for me as a fan about the A's cutting payroll. I don't get a rebate on game tickets I purchased, nor do I get a discount on my mlbtv subscription.
I don't care one whit whether they make a profit or not. To me the A's are a public resource like the park system, whether they run on budget is only abstractly interesting.
It's fun and all to watch Cust, Hannahan, Suzuki, and Dinardo do well. But it's a lot more fun when they are surrounded by a few great players.
We already went through the romantic period during and after college where we lived on pasta and slept on the floor. It was fun. Now it's time to be adults and not nickel and dime everything.
We mailed in the season when we DFA'd Milton. We really are not getting anything back for our paying Kennedy, Kielty, Kendall, Bradley, and Loaiza to participate in pennant races. The on field product has suffered. Fine. But fine for this year only.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But here's the thing with cutting payroll.
When you're replacing those guys with kids/AAAAers like Suzuki, Hannahan, Cust, Gaudin, Braden, Brown (x2), Lugo, Casilla, Dinardo, Lewis, Marshall, Myer, Robertson, Windsor, Bowen, Murphy, Furrymaniac, DaVanon, Denorfia, Snelling, Putnam et al... the chance that four or five of those guys will step up Gaudin/Cust style and be the new Kotsay/Chavez/Piazza is better than average.
And when they do, and you've got bulk payroll space, you can go sign one or two killers to sprinkle among them and contend for several years.
As opposed to running guys like Loaiza and Kotsay out there, just because we're paying them, and not discovering those gems until they're another few years older in contract terms... I know which option I prefer.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oz, have you looked at this year's FA class?
There's one offensive player who's worth signing -- and he may not even be available, and if he is, he'll be ass-expensive.
There are no "one or two killers" available.
If you're counting on Beane signing some FA bats that will actually produce .850+ OPS, you're gonna be mighty PO'ed next year -- either b/c Beane doesn't sign anyone, or b/c the guys he's likely to sign put up shitty numbers and/or spend most of the year on the DL.
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't need no stinking free agents!
We have Cust! Piazza didn't do anything for us and neither did Loaiza. I say stick with Barton and Cust. Definitely let Kotsay go. Figure out what's wrong and fix it with Buck. I have good hopes for next year, but I'm overly optimistic.
by A'sfansince1970 on Aug 30, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Oz's model is the way to go.
The A's don't need an 850+ OPS player. They need 600+ OPS players at SS and CF. I think a combination of Murphy along with one of Rowand, Fukudome, or Jones would do wonders for the A's offense. Also this dude named Barry Bonds should be available. If the rest of the league shuns him, the A's might be able to get him for a reasonable price (at the expense of fielding Cust). If the A's could get Bonds + an 750-800 OPS outfielder (Snelling and Denorfia could also be possibilities) then I our offense would be in great shape.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're weaving like Loaiza
"Oz' model" wrt FAs = "go sign one or two killers"
How do you translate that into 600+ OPS hitters at SS and CF?
What's more, Crosby's OPS this year ... is .619. And Kotsay's is .575. So you're saying you want someone who hits worse than Crosby, and only slightly better than Kotsay? (And that's disregarding the fact that the A's have for the most part gotten much better perf than Kotsay at CF this year with what they have on-hand.)
Plus, our offense is lousy. Adding two .600+ OPS hitters will ... keep it lousy.
You're also not dealing with the logjam of mediocre and injury-prone outfielders -- and all the injury-prone ones are your prospective CFs.
And you want to commit serious long-term money to Rowand (who is Kotsay without the back problems) or Jones (who's had a disastrous downturn yet will still command 3+ years)?
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
I've never understood this site's fascination with Aaron Rowand.
He's an average offensive player with injury issues who's having an All Star year, and consequently, be paid like an All Star this offseason.
by lenscrafters on Aug 30, 2007 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
me neither
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This site's fascination with Aaron Rowand
Say it with me: "Cal State Fullerton"
That's all it is.
by iglew on Aug 30, 2007 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I was hyperbolizing my anxiety
over our offensive crapitude with the .600 OPS part. What I meant is we don't need to shoot for .850 to improve our offense; 750 would probably go along way toward making this team better.
For this reason, I disagree with you that there's "only one player worth signing." That said, I guess I was thinking not so much along the lines of signing a killer player (the 850+ OPS guy) as I was about making a killer deal - a deal or two that would bring the A's closer to contention.
My point is that its only worth overpaying for stars if you know their going to fill a hole and get your team closer to the playoffs, and until then you may as well give young guys a chance as Oz was saying.
I don't think this team is as far a way from being a contender in '08 as maybe you do. And if Murphy pans out, maybe Rowand will be all the offense we'll need (although I'm much more intrigued by Fukudome as I think he'll be more affordable and probably better).
As for Rowand and Kotsay, its precisely because Rowand is younger and doesn't have back problems that he's better than Kotsay. Also his career SLG. is also almost 50 points higher than Kotsay's.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"They need 600+ OPS players at SS and CF"
Wait, you're joking right?
by lenscrafters on Aug 30, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two words:
He's like Chavez, but he costs one third the price!
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't have to be FA's
Even a tight FA market can be exploited to our benefit. The fewer quality FA's there are out there, the more attractive our cheap and/or veteran players become to other teams. That's not to say that we can expect to land a LaRoche for Crosby, of course. But if we can get some quality, undervalued prospects, especially pitchers, we can then turn around and deal guys like Blanton, DiNardo, and Gaudin for either one or two established stud hitters or for top notch prospects at the upper levels of the minors.
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
True.
Kind of.
(By the way, nice flurry of work at your blog, always makes my day when you have more than one new post up. And a side question, I notice that you are less than brutally candid on your site about the future potential of many of the players. It makes sense considering that friends and family of the team probably read it and any kind of ripping the product is going to be received with a kind of reactive circumspection. But what do you think of the guys this year? Who look like they can be prospects? Who look better from afar than close and watching everyday?)
Anyway, back to the main point. See, bad teams do this too, auditioning free talent and only signing cheap vets and a hometown hero or two to avoid criticism. It's better though when a team can mix this with the acquisition of some studs. Ala the Angels and Vlad and Colon. Sure Colon is an albatross contract right now, but Vlad is still a stud. And it hasn't prevented them from trying in-house options like Santana, Saunders, Willits, Figgins etc...
I think Beane (and Forst and Wolfe and crew) have been being way too cute with some of their signings, getting okay-good guys at moderate contracts and assuming that they can be traded later for value if need be. But we wound up with few studs (Thomas being the exception) and contracts that in total added up to what you might pay a couple of superstars.
Better to strike for great talent when you can, pay the money, and amortize one year's loss with another year's gain, rather than going year by year and filling in with bulk mediocrity.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But how do you know the A's wouldn't end up one
of the bad teams? The Giants and Orioles have both tried this tactic and its set their clubs back years. I'd rather the A's were a cheap bad team than a bad team operating the financial constraints of lousy contracts. At least in the former scenario you have flexibility.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants and Orioles?
The Giants run of good years doesn't happen if it wasn't for Bonds. That has totally worked for them. Not to mention the filled stadium while paying off that debt. And they should have gone after Vlad instead of dividing the money up on lesser lights.
The Orioles have signed in FA exactly one premium player in the last eight seasons, Tejada. Whatever their issues, starting with Angelos on down, Tejada has not been their problem.
If you think i am arguing in favor of paying big money for slightly-above-average vets, I'll tell you, I'm not.
But nearly every team would like to be cheap, young, and good. That's not a strategy, that's a wish.
And you say you'd rather the A's were cheap and bad than bad and operating under the weight of bad contracts. Sure. But I want the A's to be a perpetual 95 win team. I don't care about regression to the mean or drying up of market inefficiencies. I want a juggernaut which will steal market share away from the Giants. I want a Mark Cuban type owner who hires good people with a strategy, AND doesn't need the team to provide him any profits, just wants to win for his (her) ego.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wanna know the A's problem for the last year?
The problem? They were wrong. Injury-prone doesn't come down to luck so much as bad mechnanics, bad habits, bad constitution and slow healing. And those rarely change easily.
The only guy that paid off in this respect was Thomas, and he was the one guy we had no contract years on. Otherwise it's been Bradley, Denorfia, Crosby, Snelling, Chavez, Kotsay, Harden, Loaiza, Piazza, and the entire 2006 draft year (seriously, go look at the number of TJ candidates and knee surgery recoverees we drafted in 2006 - it's staggering).
When the market catches up to OBP, you can switch to defense or high school pitching and at least trade your OBP guys for value. But when you bet the farm (literally) on guys that are DL-friendly, and it fails, you've got no option but to cut guys and do some serious rebuilding.
For mine, the Injury-Prone era is Beane's first real tactical error that has hurt the franchise - ever - and it's a major one.
So while you see Chavez, Loaiza, Piazza, Bradley, Kennedy and Kotsay potentially leaving as salary-dumping, I see it as a necessary correction in franchise direction.
Away with the gimps, in come the workorses.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very good points Oz
Although, I think your summation is bit too simple, in that Kotsay did work at first and THEN the extension came, it was the extension which many of us were already skeptical of at the time. Chavez and Harden looked like fine bets when they inked their deals. Loaiza was signed in large part because he had been healthy and durable. Stewart has been a fine little gamble...
But "health" is indeed a skill which has a luck component to it, rather than a crapshoot. That's your big point. And I agree.
I think another huge factor in the A's downturn was the sorry state of their 2003 draft. There is a time lag to bad drafts, and it hit us this year.
And last year's draft was very strange indeed for the injury cases they took. Although if Cahill pans out, it'll look like a fair draft anyway.
****
But to clarify, I'm not against the A's turning over their roster, not at all. I'm just saying that we A's fans, and many modern era baseball fans tend to give extra credit to a team for paring its payroll. I'm saying that I don't care about the payroll, I care about the roster. (Yes, Yes I know there is a connection)
In other words an 87 win team with a $45 M payroll is not more for me than a 92 win team with an $85M payroll. Ownership shouldn't get any credit for saving themselves money and then receiving a huge payout in revenue sharing. They should get credit for being smarter and better.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's all nuance, right?
But if they save that money so it can be turned into advantage next season, or re-sign some of the studs that they'd normally let go, well, that's to be commended.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I think Beane figured something along the lines of, "I need 486 games out of my outfielders. If I get 5 guys who average around 100 games a year, I should be covered." He didn't count on all of them getting hurt at the same time. Same goes for other positions. Now you look at the team we started '07 with. Replacing Thomas with Piazza hurt a little, but it was reasonable to believe that Swisher would pick up a fair bit of that slack, and that there was a good chance for improvement from Crosby and Ellis. Overall, this was a pretty good team on paper to start the season. Barring injury, we would have excellent depth at AAA (Buck, Furmaniak, Murphy, Casilla, probably DiNardo). Beane would have had the flexibility to trade for whatever he needed as well. He had replacements for people like Kielty and Kennedy, so he could easily deal them for prospects or to fill any perceived holes in the roster. I wouldn't be surprised if he had dealt for Cust even without the injury situation getting to where it was. The problem is that everyone got hurt, he had very little ability to make deals, and all of a sudden you had the Rivercats playing in Oakland. I'm not trying to second-guess Beane. If I ran this team, I suspect they might go winless. I just think that he discovered that injury-prone players are often not undervalued.
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good post 'Ozman
re: harden, he is the best a's pitcher in Sept...period!!!
by bigelephant on Aug 31, 2007 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only players the A's could possibly sign in
the foreseeable future that would increase their market share would be Rodriguez, Bonds, Clemens, or maybe Schilling. The first is going to cost about $30 million and the last three wouldn't make the A's any better.
Sosa, Palmeiro and Hernandez were pretty big names that didn't much help the Orioles.
As for the Giants, while Alou, Benitez, Zito and an aging Finley don't exactly scream superstar, they are recognizable baseball names - the kind of names you acquire for their marketability. I understand these aren't the type of "stars" you're advocating by any means, but given there simply aren't many free agents available who are both good and recognizable, and therefore likely to increase the A's market share, I would worry that an A's team which adopted the approach you are advocating would end up too much like the Orioles or Giants.
by scromulus on Aug 30, 2007 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
That's the whole worry. There aren't ever many real studs who hit the FA market. That's part of why cutting payroll and creating space is not a guarantee of future roster improvement. That's the main caution I was trying to raise, that rooting for payroll space hasn't always correlated with getting great players.
The Blue Jays freed up tons of money, tried to run of a smart budget, and then had all this bank to spend which was available from ownership that year. What'd they get? Glaus, Burnett, Ryan. Good players all, but not good enough to make them a 93 win team and justify the years of mediocrity which preceded it.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa and Palmeiro were
"big names". Are you saying that when they were acquired by the Orioles, they were comparable to Vlad Guerrero? Or Carlos Beltran? Or Manny? The Orioles traded Jerry Hairston for Sosa, IIRC. Jerry Hairston.
Alou was a perfectly fine player. They would have been better off keeping him instead of signing crap like Dave Roberts or Randy Winn. Benitez is hated by fans of every team he has been on.
One could argue that the As were adopting the spending strategy of the Giants and Orioles when they signed players like Kotsay, Piazza, Loaiza, Redman.
by rfloh on Aug 30, 2007 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The issue is that
the Giants and the Orioles have NOT tried this tactic. The Angels singed a superstar future HOFer in Vlad.
The Giants and Orioles have been signing mediocre / average ageing players, often with little defensive value, not superstars. Jay Payton, Kevin Millar and Kris Benson are the types players that the Orioles have been (over)paying.
The Giants could have signed Vlad. Instead they chose to sign a bunch of "proven veterans". Guys like Randy Winn, Dave Roberts et al are hardly comparable to players like Vlad or Manny.
by rfloh on Aug 30, 2007 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and in reply to the Canadians questions:
It's a weird year. The C's were truly abandoned by the A's this season. They bumped up several good players early, replaced them with nobody, and even as they kicked others up and downstairs, the roster just got thinner and thinner, so the results started to look poor.
Meanwhile, the SF Giants-affiliated team, the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes, just won't move anyone up, no matter how well they're doing. Their closer has 18 saves from 18 chances, and a sub 0.50 ERA, and he hasn't budged, so they just took the league over all year long.
But, even with all that, the C's bounced off the bottom of the table to climb over .500 and take 2nd place in the div, even with nothing to play for more than stats. So I like their moxie.
As for individuals, I'll save the indepth breakdown for NFTN, but the highlights are:
Hitters:
Corey Brown: Great power, but got injured sliding headfirst and ended his season. Slides headfirst because, in his words, he's crap at sliding feet first. Great tools, can steal a bag, likes to show off his throwing arm when he shouldn't be. K's a lot, but he's a powerguy, so (shrug).
Danny Hamblin: Great D at first base, but can play third too (if gets his shoulder fixed), and is neck and neck with Brown in the power game. Definitely all about the dingers, which is a shame, because when he looks for gaps, he mashes.
Matt Sulentic: Still the most talented hitter in the minors, for mine. Still has a lot of learning to do, for mine. Surprising people with his improved outfield D, which was the biggest knock on his game previously. For him, it's going to be all about building maturity and power, but if he builds both, he'll be Buck times two.
Michael Richard: Fastest guy in the system, no doubt about it. Steals at will, knows how to drop a bunt, can slap it about it need be. Plate patience will put him over the top if he can work on that aspect of his game, but he's one to watch, for sure.
Greg Desme: Only played two games thus far. A whole other level of ballplayer. Hits the ball, hits it hard, plays D, can steal - solid as a rock.
Pitchers: None. sure, plenty had good streaks and highlights, but there's no Jimmy Shull's here. Lots of role players, some flamethrowers, but nobody who has it all together.
Darkhorses:
Shane Keough: Struggled all year, but has that Haas Pratt body shape that just begs to translate into power. Very quick on the bags, but will get picked off a time or two. Great D in CF.
JD Pruitt: Best OBP in the league, along with one of the lowest BAs. Will take a fastball to the ear to move a runner along, and has done so 33 times in 50 or so games. Recently got off the HBP train and started swinging the bat, and his BA has climbed over Mendoza quickly (has some power), and his plate patience is awesome, but he just doesn't steal enough to lead off. Whic is weird, because he's fast on the paths.
Dusty Napoleon: I'm the only one heralding this kid, and his stats say "blah", but he has the makeup of a nasty #6 hitter, and decent enough skills behind the plate. Needs playing time, but if he gets it, he'll show some people a thing or two. Power, contact, cajones.
Pitchers: None. Again, some good stuff in the rotation and pen, but none of it consistent. Guys with big hooks who can't hit the plate, guys who crumble with men on the bags, guys who leave their fastballs up... weak pitching year.
That's the basics.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The good pitchers are all at Kane County
Rodriguez, Carignan, Demel, Cahill, etc.
This may be a conscious decision, since I know the NW League is a lot more hitter-friendly, and they may want to put guys in situations where they can succeed to build confidence.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like everything this year, it's a cascade effect.
The problem has been, nobody has come up from Arizona. Like, nobody. At all.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks x2
Keough good enough D to play Mlb CF?
Richard SS D?
Can Pruitt play legit CF? Or is he going to have to try and be Chone Figgins and learn a bit of everything?
Can Brown, Sulentic, and Hamblin all turn on a good fastball in? Lots of swing and miss at good breaking stuff? Ability to foul off good pitches?
thanks again, love the blog
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As best as I can say:
Not to primo Kotsay level (yet), or even Herrera level, but plenty to work with. He's young and huge, with plenty of room to fill out. A more athletic Buck, physically, and as prone to make a spectacular play as miss one.
Richard SS D?
Solid. Not Petit/Sellers outrageous, not Pennington solid, will turn plenty of DPs because of his speed which translates to solid range, but can boot it now and then.
Can Pruitt play legit CF?
He won't get the chance. Not the blue-chipper he needs to be to get the spot working his way up the system, but physically, he's totally cut, so with a lift in power (or speed), he could grow into a really solid multi-tooler. For mine, he just needs to work on base-stealing and he's your ultimate lead-off guy. But then, if Richard worked on taking walks, he is too.
Or is he going to have to try and be Chone Figgins and learn a bit of everything?
If there's such a thing as a pinch-walker, that's the role he's best suited for. He does many things well, but some fundamentals are lacking and that'll make him a 'character actor' if he gets high enough for consideration in the bigs.
Can Brown, Sulentic, and Hamblin all turn on a good fastball in?
Like they had a grudge against the ball and a split second to exact revenge on it. All three of these guys hit the ball hard enough that, if you're not paying attention, the sound of a base hit up the middle makes you look up quickly to see what you're certain will be a homerun.
Lots of swing and miss at good breaking stuff?
And bad breaking stuff. Let's not forget that Nat Bailey Stadium is where homers go to be flyball outs. Brown's hit three at home all season, and eight on the road. Put them in the Cali League and watch the fur fly.
Ability to foul off good pitches?
The best guy in the system for that is Nick Blasi, and none of them come close to him. Keeping the at bat alive has been a big issue with the C's power-hitters, because they tend to swing out of their shoes. Sulentic is the biggest problem in this respect, because he's trying too hard, and when he just goes up and sprays liners, he sprays them continually. Instead, he's trying to keep up with Brown (now Desme) and Hamblin, which means he'll swing at borderline stuff in a 2-1 situation, rather than let the pitcher fall in a hole.
Brown will K a lot too (though not nearly as much as Julio Rivera, who thinks he's a home run hitter but would have mor luck throwing it over the fence), but he's a legit heavy-hitter, so you don't mind so much when he takes a windmill swipe and misses, because the next one will get pounded.
For straight up pyschological makeup, keep an eye on Hamblin. He's as calm a player as I've seen. I think you could kick him in the nuts and he'd just walk past you and take a few warm-up swings.
by Ozzz on Aug 30, 2007 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pure gold
Thanks Oz
I'm looking forward to watching Stockton next year. This year has been pretty lackluster compared to 2005, and 2006.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
every level is suffering.
Even the AZL team is hurting.
by Ozzz on Aug 31, 2007 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the A's are a public resource
the public ought to help finance them, directly.
I'm not saying that to discredit or credit your statement. Just sayin'.
by jeepers on Aug 30, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I know
First: it's an emotional, rather than a rational sentiment. more than slightly tongue-in-cheek.
Second: I love that the Packers are community owned, and would have loved to see that route followed more often. It's more like a bizarro path in a choose your own adventure series about the USA. And it won't ever happen because it hurts the other owners in the pocketbook. Cutting payroll this year? Well then we get to invest in the stadium, or cut rates on season tickets, or offer dividend checks.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Packers are awesome
They're the model all small-market sports teams should be built on. There's literally no way the team would not have been dragged off to some Southern hellhole by now if it hadn't been owned by the community.
Must be nice to actually KNOW that money that's being "saved" isn't just going to rent a private jet.
by PaulThomas on Aug 31, 2007 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would put Crosby in Sacramento, and tell him
he is not coming up until he learns how to take the outside pitch to the opposite field. and he would need to prove that with something like 50 hits to the opposite field--something like that anyway. He is very frustrating to me because I think he has tremendous talent, but is lacking something mentally,,,,or psychologically, or whatever.
by alamedaman on Aug 30, 2007 10:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he's an idiot
but maybe not beyond learning and he has a great glove with awesome range.
by A'sfansince1970 on Aug 30, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crosby cannot be sent to AAA
without clearing major league waivers. Even now, I don't really think he would.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it's just the idea to get him to work on
improving his hitting to opposite field.
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he go to the AFL?
Or a winter league, maybe?
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crosby
We all get frustrated with the guy. But he's not getting that much jack that he's unmovable, assuming he can play. You know he'll have some stretch of three weeks where he looks good and he'll hit well. Trade him then. Meanwhile you already are working on seeing whether Murphy, Pennington, Petit, Sellers, Horton, me, you, can be the heir apparent. SS is an issue, but not the biggest issue going forward.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
we just need to get rid of kotsay and maybe chavy
crosby can be the backup infielder when scutaro is gone. who cares about DJ either way.
by xbhaskarx on Aug 30, 2007 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DJ is cheap and probably always will be
unless he improves his consistancy. That is the key to anybody. Everyone is hot for Cust now, if he falls into a slump, then what? Just like everybody else, you love them and can't live without them when their numbers are good. Numbers slip and your a worthless bum who can't leave town quick enough.
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good post.
Of course, after your hot streak of good posts ends, I'll be leading the bandwagon of posters trying to get you banned, or at least sent over to the Royals blog to improve the quality of your posts.
by McFood on Aug 30, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm an A's fan stuck in Royals country
Oakland has done well with the players they get from the Royals.
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying
that we're the love 'em and leave 'em type?
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm All For Cutting Payroll ...
... if it means we get something back, too.
Other teams get prospects -- granted, many of whom never pan out -- when they dump high-priced players to playoff contending teams.
Loaiza could have brought something back to the A's. Probably not the high-end prospect we were hoping for, but a playoff contender next summer would gladly give up some minor leaguers with potential for an above average mid-to-back end starting pitcher who only costs $7 million.
Shedding Loaiza's salary early is at best cheap, and at worst just plain lazy.
by Eck on Aug 30, 2007 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently they wouldn't
seeing as how they didn't this year.
I don't understand why Loaiza's value was as low as it was, but for whatever reason he was not wanted by several contenders (Seattle, eg) desperately in need of pitching.
by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2007 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
Loaiza must have got another DUI and is expected to spend next summer in jail. Thats the only expanation that makes sense
by GusanoQuemador on Aug 30, 2007 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cano just hit HR #2 off Schilling today
by Huskerland A s Fan on Aug 30, 2007 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I understand the Loaiza giveaway ...
but while it's true that obviously no team claimed him off waivers until the Dodgers, it's absolutely not true that every team had the opportunity to claim at the same price. From what I read, the A's are PAYING the Dodgers $1m now. That sweetens the pot substantially for the D's, as they don't even make a payment until next January at the earliest. I would have imagined some other team would have claimed him for full price, but not if the A's really wanted him to go to LA (for future considerations or whatever) and made some good-conscience disclosure about their concerns over his health. Who knows, but it wouldn't be difficult to reduce the demand over health concerns about $8 million investment in a 35 year-old pitcher who's pitched two games this year?
by iceplant on Aug 30, 2007 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
where did you read we're paying them $1MM?
It wasn't a trade, so how could we pay them money?
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A's owe Loaiza $1M of his signing bonus
Not sending it to the Dodgers.
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same difference
it's $1 million that's owed Loaiza and must be paid by someone to get the waiver claim done. It's going to him and the A's are paying it instead of the Dodgers.
by iceplant on Aug 30, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loaiza
has never been consistent for us. We are lucky to be able to free up some money to sign some offense. Rotation next year could be...Haren, Blanton,Gaudin,Braeden, and a mystery man ...our current number 5 Dinardo maybe; but hoping Beane finds us something more.
If we get some hitting behind these guys...that should do it.
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2007 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
and hell yeah
Let's dump Chavvy and Kots if we get the chance... Say Thanks to the guys and sorry but you get hurt too often.
Special thanks to Chavez..who really was a team guy.
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2007 1:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Cutting Loiaza's $$ strings for '08,
opens the door to sign Blanton for 4-5 years for Loiaza's '08 $$ alone, eh?
by millbraeforAsfan on Aug 30, 2007 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The only curious thing about the Loaiza trade is
that it really does seem like we could have gotten more for him in December than now with only a salary dump. If Loaiza goes on to pitch really well for the Dodgers then this move will make Beane seem very foolish.
Harden is the question in my mind...surely he will trade him this winter. Right?
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2007 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
everytime I see this title
I think of bad songs from the 90's
http://www.lyrics007.com/print.php?i...
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Radical idea
Let's see, $20 million saved, right? That means 3 guys can get the bionic man surgery. I vote Harden, Chavez, and Cust (just to see how far he'd hit a ball with bionic arms).
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the A's just don't have room for anyone
In recent years teams like the A's have shown that minor league prospects ready for big leagues are VERY valuable.
If all the Dodgers were willing to give up was a mediocre to decent minor league prospect, then why even take him? It would simply force The A's to eventually clear a spot on the roster by removing some other decent prospect of nearly the same talent level. Like choosing between apples and apples if you will. Maybe its just more headache than its worth.
by GusanoQuemador on Aug 30, 2007 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
funny
I hear a conversation in a bad French accent:
Non, Coletti. You insult me with zat offer. Forget it. We will take nothing and we will enjoy ze nothingness. It is better than zis swill you are tossing our way. We embrace nothingness. Leave now with your so-called pitcher. I must now to smoke in the dark.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
That was borderline brilliant. Did you really come up with that on your own? I especially like the closing line: i must now to smoke in the dark
bravo!
by GusanoQuemador on Aug 30, 2007 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've had a lot of caffeine today
so I'm already hearing the voices... I just needed to give them words.
by jakarta on Aug 30, 2007 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
love it. You should always post with your French accent. Classic!
by IM4Oakgal on Aug 30, 2007 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a word:
Word.
There's really no room to half-ass on this. Beane has been throwing veteran players away rather than flip them for something else of value. But unless he does that with all of 'em (Kotsay, DJ, Shannon Stewart, Piazza, Chavez, probably Crosby although I'm not really sold on that idea), all he's doing is setting up the A's for further mediocrity. As Buster Olney has said today in his blog, Beane doesn't necessarily have a win-now mandate, but a win-when-the-new-stadium-opens-years-from-now expectation.
Basically, it's the new Marlins fire sale, except with drastically less valuable pieces being sent away, and thus drastically less valuable pieces coming in (unless Beane works that Moneyball magic in "fleecing" other GM's). And I'm sort of okay with that. I'd rather the team suck intensely for a while with hope for upside, rather than just being mediocre year in year out.
I mean, at least move Kotsay.
by Joey C. on Aug 30, 2007 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If we're going to suck again
I want Stairs back. And the Chief.
Todd Van Poppel can stay wherever he is, though.
by Leopold Bloom on Aug 30, 2007 3:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How about
Charlie O.'s donkey
by oaklandSMASH on Aug 30, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
We have enough asses on this team.
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need more in the seats,
but they closed the 3rd deck, so screw 'em.
by McFood on Aug 30, 2007 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and salb's racist ass
by monkeyball on Aug 30, 2007 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does his white ass
hate my brown ass? As long as he doesn't burn a cross on my "front lawn."
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody notice Cahill today?
Another great outing. Six and two thirds, 7 hits, 1 walk, 9 K's. In August:
36.2 IP 20H 3ER (yes, 3ER) 13BB 44K
I like that they're not rushing him, but I'm looking forward to seeing what he does next year at a higher level.
by ozzman99 on Aug 30, 2007 7:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
please don't get hurt
please don't get hurt, please don't get hurt..
by jubjub on Aug 30, 2007 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been following Cahill
very closely. This guy is flat out way ahead of the curve considering he is 19 years old, and pocesses a plus fastball, and a nice curve, along with change up.
A great HS draft pick from 2006.!!
He should be at Stockton next season, at least at the start. He could progress quickly through the system.
by Mikkoo on Aug 31, 2007 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
am I the only one...
Who wants Street on this list of players for sale??? I just have had no faith in this guy, ever. For some reason, when he takes the mound, I feel like Storm Davis is pitching!
by polytician on Aug 31, 2007 7:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
roster flexibility
BB's new buzzword...hahahaha
sorry Billy, we aren't that stoopid.
by cvdoug on Aug 31, 2007 10:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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