Offseason Interview: Mychael Urban
Mychael Urban is the beat writer for oaklandathletics.com. He's always been a good community member and contributor here at Athletics Nation as well, so I've been surprised in the past at how some community members have openly lobbed personal attacks at him. Listen, you can always go after someone's opinions and dissect them accordingly (which I've done in the past with Urban after the Bradley column ran), but I will always demand that community members show other community members respect.
All that being said, Urban and I recently had a conversation about all things A's. This is our conversation. Enjoy.
Blez: Tell me, what do you think the A's biggest offseason need is? Many seem to think it's offense, but I actually think the team could use an extra starter more than anything given Harden's ongoing health issues.
Mychael Urban: The biggest offseason need? How about some sort of guarantee that Eric Chavez, Bobby Crosby, Kiko Calero, Justin Duchscherer, Mark Kotsay, Travis Buck, Huston Street and Rich Harden will stay off the DL for a full season? Get that and you're in serious business.
Obviously, such a guarantee isn't forthcoming, but that's what makes your question so difficult to answer. I'm convinced that a healthy 2007 A's team, with Mike Piazza OR Jack Cust at DH, would have had more than enough offense and pitching to win the AL West. And I think a 2008 lineup consisting entirely of guys already on board would be tough to beat if it were backed by a rotation of Harden, Dan Haren, Joe Banton, Chad Gaudin and Justin Duchscherer, and a bullpen anchored by Street, Alan Embree, Calero, Santiago Casilla and Jerry Blevins.
That said, I do think the A's need a legitimate right-handed power threat in the middle of their order, and I don't think they'll be able to find one via free agency. That's why I've been saying for a long time that I expect Billy Beane to pull the trigger on a big trade or two. There's also an obvious need for another viable option at shortstop and third base, if for no other reason than to light a fire under Chavez and Crosby, who haven't been truly challenged from within the organization during their careers. And with Duschcherer likely to be moved into the rotation, there's a need for another reliable reliever -- preferably one who throws hard.
As far as the rotation is concerned, I like what the A's have -- even if Harden doesn't hold up -- as long as Duke can make the transition back to starting, and I think he can. Haren and Blanton are a very good 1-2 punch, and I thought Gaudin simply wore down as the innings piled up; he spent last winter working out with a relief role in mind, and now that he'll be able to tailor his offseason workouts to a starter's workload, I expect him to be much better prepared for the grind of the second half next year. Duke would be a terrific No. 4 or No. 5, and if he has to be the No. 4 (because Harden is out), I have a feeling Dan Meyer is going to finally emerge as the guy the A's were hoping to get in the Tim Hudson deal and claim the No. 5 spot.
Blez: You are in contact with people inside the organization all the time. What's the true feeling about Rich Harden from A's insiders? Will he ever, EVER be a factor in green and gold?
Urban: Another tough one to answer. As a beat reporter, the person you speak to most often is the manager, and when Art Howe and Ken Macha were in Oakland, they'd usually give a straight answer about what the organization really thought about certain guys. Bob Geren is a cool guy and I like him a lot personally, but he's still very new to the skipper's role, and he rarely says anything about a player that doesn't seem like it's been sent through some sort of company filter. I'm not sure he trusts the people who cover the team just yet, and that's understandable. Frustrating, but understandable. You just can't get much out of Geren other than positive platitudes.
I speak fairly frequently with Billy Beane, who I know trusts me and is usually as honest with me as he can be, and he remains convinced that Harden will be a factor -- a dominant factor -- at some point. The question is, for whom? And here's where I can give you a little something your readers probably don't know:
When Jonathan Papelbon was still in the Red Sox rotation early this season, they were talking to the A's about trading for Harden and making him their closer. And not only did Rich know about it, but he also was starting to warm up to the idea before Boston put Papelbon back in the 'pen. And when the A's were working Rich back into the mix by using him out of the bullpen later in the year, it was something of an experiment to see if he might be better off in that role -- and Rich knew that, too. When he got hurt again, though, he soured on the idea of being a reliever, so now he's adamant about starting again. And the A's are going to give him at least one more chance to do it this year.
Blez: Many on AN have pretty much given up on Bobby Crosby ever being anything more than a guy who hits .230 or so and has an OBP under .300. Is it premature to draw that conclusion?
Urban: I think it is, but I'm a well-known "Crosby apologist." In fact, now that Jason Kendall is gone, Crosby is the guy I'll most get ripped for defending. I see him as a position-player equivalent to Harden, to an extent. Harden has the more mind-blowing talent, as evidenced by the brilliance we've seen from him when healthy, but I still think Crosby can be a very good player if he can stay on the field. He's never going to be a .300 hitter with that long, uppercut swing, but if he can stay off the DL for a couple of years and get the kind of playing time he needs to mature as a hitter and develop a little more patience, I could see him giving Oakland .275/25/85 out of the lower-middle of the order for many years. And he's an above-average defensive player when he's right, too.
But I totally understand the frustration of his detractors, and this is probably a make-or-break year for Crosby. He'll be 28 by the time spring training rolls around, his contract is up after 2009, and there's a reason the A's were talking to the Dodgers about a shortstop prospect when L.A. called about Blanton this summer.
Blez: Do you think the A's should go with Jack Cust as their DH or do you think the A's should pursue Barry Bonds?
Bonds: I can't say that I'm fully sold on Cust for the simple reason that he's only had one good year. He was a hell of a story, and maybe he is that classic late bloomer, but I'm still a little skeptical. If the A's were able to get that big right-handed stick I mentioned earlier (he's a corner outfielder in my little GM fantasy), I could see Barton as their DH and Swisher moved, once and for all and forever, to first base.
Bonds? Personally, I'd like to see what that circus feels like from the front row. And if you made me pick Cust or Bonds, I'd pick Bonds every time. But I just don't see it happening. There's the Mitchell investigation findings to consider, there's the exorbitant salary Bonds is probably going to want, and there's the looming perjury charges; the feds don't keep extending grand juries for show, and they almost ALWAYS get their man. It'd be great theater to see Bonds with the A's, but the potential for messiness is too great.
Blez: Who do you think has the most upside, Daric Barton or Travis Buck?
Urban: Great question. I've seen quite a bit more of Buck, but I've seen enough of Barton now to understand why everyone's been so high on him for so long, and I'd probably say they're about even in my mind as far as upside goes. Buck's recent injury history is a concern (whose isn't on this team?), but I think they're both going to be mainstays in Oakland for a long time. I think Barton will eventually hit for more power, but Buck is a more complete player at this point. If I had to give someone's upside an edge, I'd give it to Barton, but only because he's 22 and Buck is about to turn 24 (Nov. 16).
Blez: You took a lot of crap on AN two years ago for the column about Milton Bradley being a negative presence in the A's clubhouse. I imagine you must've wanted to get tee shirts printed up this past season when you were pretty much proven right that said, "Urban was right." Did you feel vindicated?
Urban: No, and I really mean that. It was frustrating to fall out of AN's good graces so quickly after a nice little run of favored-nation status, if only because I thought I'd built up enough respect as a reporter for fans to give me the benefit of the doubt on something like that, but I knew I'd take a little heat for what I wrote. I went after "their guy", they didn't like it, and in protecting "their guy," they went after me. I get it. The various theories I'd see on the site about my sources for the column were kind of funny, though. No, people, I didn't ghost-write it for Mark Kotsay.
What I would like people to know, and I'm sure the people who really follow my coverage already do, is that I don't make a habit of going after guys. In fact, that's the only time I can remember doing it, and I did it because it was indeed a major issue in the clubhouse at the time. Several players -- I'm talking about eight or nine guys -- provided information for the column, and here's some previously unreported proof that it was indeed a big problem within the team: A day or two after the column appeared, a high-level meeting was called. Bradley and his agent, on speakerphone, were in attendance. The message: Clean it up, Milton.
And he did. Until this year.
Trust me, if I really wanted to bury Bradley out of spite or something, I could have done it a bunch of times. I decided against reporting several incidents that would have made people realize that my column wasn't just a poison dart, and I made those decisions after asking myself the same question I ask when confronted with any difficult call, be it in my work or personal life: Who benefits?
I decided to write the column because I thought it could affect change in a positive way, and it did. I got slammed, but it benefited the team in the long run. Milton mellowed out and went on a tear.
I decided NOT to write about the other incidents because the only benefit would have been selfish, i.e. personal vindication.
Nothing about what happened with Milton this year made me feel good in any way. It actually saddened me a little. I had a chat with Milton about the column this spring, and I took more time to try to get to know and understand him a little better as the season progressed. I didn't really succeed, but there no disputing that he's a sensitive, smart, talented, complex, and tortured man. Very strong and frail at the same time. Fascinating, really. And while it didn't surprise me to see everything unravel the way it did, I took zero pleasure in it.
Blez: Bradley came out and essentially charged that the A's front office was racist. And yet we just recently read that Shannon Stewart is interested in coming back and that he loved his time in Oakland. Was this just the ramblings of a man hurt by the deal?
Urban: Definitely the result of injured pride. I wrote a column about this deal, too. It was written in response to another columnist's suggestion that Beane is racist, before Bradley popped off, but it still applies.
And here's some information I left out: The A's director of player personnel, Billy Owens, is black. So is the team's big-league strength coach, Clarence Cockrell. So is the manager at Double-A Midland, Todd Steverson. Bradley's claim was irresponsible and unfair. Bad for ball.
Blez: Billy Beane said that he didn't really know what his team was all about in 2008 yet. How do you view this team going into 2008? Contender for the AL West or should Beane just throw things out and start rebuilding?
Urban: I kind of answered this earlier. I think they can contend with the team they have coming back, with health being the caveat. But Billy isn't going to sit back and hope the team gets healthy. He's going to move, and he's going to move big. I'm almost sure of it, and I'm looking forward to covering it.
Blez: Do you think that the team is finally doing the right thing to correct the injury issues that have ballooned the last three seasons and if you were in Beane's position, what would you do?
Urban: I'm assuming you're talking about the reshuffled medical staff and the vow to monitor the players' winter workouts more closely. Is that the "right thing"? I have no idea. But it's a different thing, and that was an imperative step. Unfortunately, in this era of baseball the cause and frequency of injuries are very tricky to pin down, and every athlete has a different physiological and psychological makeup, with a different tolerance level for pain. Has it been bad luck, bad training, bad medicine or a combination of all of that? Nobody knows. What's important is that the A's are trying something new, and they having more dialogues about what they're doing. If I were Beane, I'd do what he's doing, and looking into doing more of it.
Blez: Do you think Eric Chavez will rebound now that he's had a couple of nagging injuries fixed? Will we see the 30 homer, 100 RBI guy of seasons past?
Urban: Well, we don't really know yet if everything's been fixed, and we won't until this spring. There was a lot of hope in his voice when he explained that one injury probably led to another, and so on and so on, and he won't know if those theories are correct until he gives his body some serious baseball pounding.
But yeah, if he's healthy, 30 and 100. And a Gold Glove. That's who he is.
Blez: Does Chris Denorfia steal a lot of ABs from Mark Kotsay next season?
Urban: I've never seen Denorfia play, but based on what I've heard, you might be onto something. Here we go with the health thing again, though. Denorfia didn't play at all last year, and Kotsay didn't play very much, so who knows? But if they're both healthy and productive, I think Kotsay, who is entering the final year of his contract, would be a prime candidate for a trade before the deadline
Blez: If you were to build a lineup right now with the current group of players, what would it be?
Urban:
- Buck, LF
- Barton, 1B
- Swisher, RF
- Chavez, 3B
- Cust, DH
- Mark Ellis, 2B
- Kotsay, CF
- Crosby, SS
- Kurt Suzuki, C
Note: I'd like to see Suzuki and Rob Bowen compete for the catching job this spring. If Bowen won, I'd plug him into the No. 6 spot and move everyone else down.
Blez: Finally, I know the A's used to be big-time Halo fans. Who is the best Halo 3 player? Street, right?
Urban: Street will say Street, Harden will say Harden, Haren will say Haren. Beyond that, I have no clue. I'm old-school. I'm still trying to get past the damn conveyor-belt-in-hell level of Donkey Kong.
Blez: Thanks so much for your time, Mychael.
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226 comments
Comments
Urban rocks
Blez,
thank you for sharing the conversation. Mychael Urban is always an interesting read for me (even when I disagree with his take). He has real insights to share and he seems to do so in a responsible, well thought-out manner.
Note to Mychael Urban: I am a 46-year old A's fan who has followed the team since 1968. In my opinion, your coverage of this team ranks at or near the top alongside Dave Newhouse. Rob Neyer, Monty Poole, and Susan Slusser are also talented reporters who write about the A's, but your work seems to offer that extra bit of insight above and beyond reporting what we all can see on the field. Thank you
by conniemack on
Nov 5, 2007 10:34 AM PST
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Mom always said if you don't have anything nice
to say, don't say anything at all.
<crickets>
<crickets>
<crickets>
by theblackpearl on
Nov 5, 2007 10:38 AM PST
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Interesting that Urban didn't tell all
He alluded to various things he could have said about MB, other events of note.
Is he taking the high road, or is it unfair of him to hint at bad things without giving the subject of rumors a chance to defend themselves?
He11, you could even consider it blackmail - I know these embarrassing things about you, and might just tell somebody unless....
I have long suspected that Susan Slusser's leak of Swisher's drinking habits was planted (or at least cleared) by upper management. A way to send a message to Nick.
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 1:00 PM PST
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Not sure that I understand the logic
Between assesments of Crosby and Cust.
Urban says that he believes in Crosby and cites as evidence that he has not had the experience and exposure to translate his physical talents into results.
Then he says that he does not believe in Cust, because Cust has only had one good year.
Crosby has had, in my estimation, 1.5 good seasons. The first was his season in AAA, and the second the half season of 2005 that he played in Oakland and OPS-ed .802. But Crosby is not untested at all. He has 1600 major league at bats and a .700 OPS. He is a proven commodity. And that commodity sucks. His "one good season" came in AAA.
Jack Cust, on the other hand, mashed the ball for nearly a full season last year. And his performance was predicted by his strong minor league numbers. Year in and out, he shows he can hit. I think this is a proven commodity also. A high strike out, low athletic ability solid hitter.
I cannot help but think that the fact that Crosby looks like a hell of an athlete and Cust looks like the guy who delivers my pizza has more to do with it than actual research. But fine, its just nit picking. Michael states himself that he is a Crosby appologist.
Anyway, nice to have you back Michael. And thanks for the Harden insight. Thats good knowledge and good of you to share.
by mikedaviswhereareyou on
Nov 5, 2007 10:38 AM PST
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Different standards ...
he's basically saying that if Croz gets healthy, he thinks it's realistic to expect him to bounce back to his 2005 level of production. Which would make him an asset at shortstop, though far from being a star.
When discussing Cust, he was comparing him to Barry Bonds. I'm a believer in Cust and I'm extremely skeptical that Cust can put up those kind of numbers in 2008 ... because they are far better than what he did in 2007.
I don't think Urban, by any stretch, thinks that Crosby is likely to be more productive with the bat than Cust in 2008. He's just (and not without reason) judging them by very different standards.
by devo on
Nov 5, 2007 11:23 AM PST
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As an attack-lobber
let me say that I enjoyed this interview. Some odd opinions, but good info. Excellent read.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 10:42 AM PST
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I wonder about this
He's going to move, and he's going to move big.
Mychael has said this on more than one occasion, but for some reason I'm not so sure
by ArakSOT on
Nov 5, 2007 10:43 AM PST
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Billy wants to, but I don't see anyone of any
value, other than Haren, and Blanton, and maybe Swish. There is nothing else BIG to be done, I could see quantity, but the quality isn't really there.
by theblackpearl on
Nov 5, 2007 10:48 AM PST
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Huston Street is valuable.
And it would be a really good idea to move him, too. His elbow tendons are like guitar strings, and his motion is Slayer.
by jeepers on
Nov 5, 2007 5:08 PM PST
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He's going to sign Tom Hanks?
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 11:12 AM PST
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Our best hope for Harden
is to abandon medicine and have him take a shot with that carnival thingie.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:14 AM PST
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Britney Spears?
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 11:47 AM PST
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it really is good
to have you back.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:09 PM PST
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who the hell put Tom Hanks in this thing?
Tom Hanks couldn't act his way out of a nut sack!
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:08 PM PST
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Is that the most efficient way of getting
out of a nut sack?
Though obviously the bigger question is why he's there in the first place.
by OldhamA on
Nov 5, 2007 3:55 PM PST
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I think what Urban means...
is us trading for a Sexson-type player using Lenny/Braden/DJ level players and prospects. Surely, in that competitive situation it would make no sense to move Ellis, Swisher, Haren, Street, Harden, Blanton, Buck, Suzuki, or Barton. At least that was my interpretation since as mentioned above we have an established core that injury free would make us competitive.
by AsWin on
Nov 5, 2007 1:55 PM PST
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Good interview, but
what do we do if Joe Morgan opens an AN account? What about Rev. Halofan, who already has one? Does that exempt them from charges that their flat-earth views are surpassed only by the shallow brainpans in their flat-heads?
Public figures have to take the attacks that come from their positions, justified or not, IMO. And an AN user account shouldn't change that.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 11:50 AM PST
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Attacks NO
Criticism YES.
And if somebody is so thin skinned to take criticism as an attack, that's their problem.
(Oh, and FSU, we've all decided to talk to you - you need to brush your teeth better. Ugh, halitosis. Just a little friendly advice.)
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 12:29 PM PST
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Yeah
there's a big difference between attacking the statement or argument and attacking the person.
I think we need to strive to avoid the latter as I'll do the former on occasion (both Susan Slusser and Urban can tell you I've done as much).
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 12:31 PM PST
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Oh and the chances of Joe Morgan
opening an account here is on par with the earth would opening up and swallowing all of humanity, then burping us into the far reaches of space.
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 12:32 PM PST
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"I'll do the former on occasion"
< intentionally misreads statement and following parenthetic, starts rumor >
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 1:03 PM PST
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definitely
and it seems that attacks included, Urban took it pretty well - he clearly understood the reasoning behind the attacks and seems ok with the situation. I really enjoyed reading his thoughts about the Bradley situation and gained a lot of respect for him from it. He could have pounded his chest and said "see", but he didn't, he ran in the opposite direction with it. All things considered, to have apathy for Bradley and to have tried to get to know him better shows a lot about Urban.
by Eric in Atlanta on
Nov 5, 2007 2:19 PM PST
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Empathy. :)
by Poppy on
Nov 5, 2007 2:37 PM PST
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eh
empathy, apathy..who cares?
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:11 PM PST
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I feel you
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 3:18 PM PST
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Did you ask permission?
by oblique on
Nov 5, 2007 5:59 PM PST
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I know exactly what you mean.
by oblique on
Nov 5, 2007 5:59 PM PST
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I respectfully disagree.
If you simply mean the act of registering is enough, then yes, a user name shouldn't protect you.
Anyone who has a user name and contributes to this site, however, deserves the same level of respect afforded to all of its members.
by jeepers on
Nov 5, 2007 5:10 PM PST
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I unsurprisingly disagree
with your disagreement. Let me pose this fr'instance:
Jeff Pearlman (late of SI, now of ESPN) is often derided as a cheap shot artist, famously for his SI piece on John Rocker. His ESPN pieces span the range from vapid to inflammatory simply to inflame, the online print equivalent of bad talk radio. He's a hack, and a dangerous hack besides, since he's just smart enough to get people in trouble simply to advance his own career. He is not (presumably) an AN member or contributor.
I feel the same about Urban. His journalistic skills are weak, his opinions either predictable, or a tool of management or a clubhouse faction to make a point, or simply inflammatory for the sake of attention. He's a hack...he makes bad guesses and calls them analysis. I think his voice in his talk radio gig is much closer to his actual self than is the slick guy being interviewed above. I find him annoying at best and a dangerous weasel with a press pass at worst. That is my opinion of his professional skills, which by any reasonable construction should be fair game on this website. People have said the same (and much worse) about Carl Steward and Ray Ratto, to choose local examples. Does Urban get a free pass about on-topic journalism critiques just because he posts (rarely) and lets Blez interview him? I would hope not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 7:22 PM PST
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+27
I think a good distinction might be: people who are paid to cover/manage/play for the A's should be open to criticism on this site, whereas fans (pretty much all of us) should be protected by different rules of decorum. Media coverage of the A's is a pretty fundamental subject of this blog. It so happens that Slusser and (formerly) Suchon were excellent reporters, and that Urban is a hack. Can I not say that on an A's blog? If I can't, can I not say that Vince C. is bad at his job? Can I then not criticize any players who might read this site, or contribute like Duke? If Billy traded Haren for Reggie Willits, could I not call him a moron?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:41 PM PST
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-27
mikeA, it's not a matter of who is protected (players/reporters vs. fans), it's a matter of what common courtesies should be extended to ALL.
IMO, EVERYONE, from fans to players to GMs to reporters, should be fair game to have their opinions and skills criticized.
IMO, NO ONE, from fans to players to GMs to reporters, should be personally attacked or insulted.
Notice I said IMO. Your statement, "It so happens that Slusser and (formerly) Suchon were excellent reporters, and that Urban is a hack" states an opinion as if it were fact. I don't think Urban is a hack at all. That's my opinion. If you don't care for his work, that's fine. But IMO, for anyone to come onto a thread where someone is interviewed and to say, "Hey, your work sucks" is - whether or not it's a violation of any community guidelines - just incredibly immature. IMO.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 7:56 PM PST
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"Your work sucks"
That's a critique on someone's professional product. If modified by "by the standards of quality journalism" then it's perhaps a more grown-up critique; if modified by "donkey dicks" then its probably more juvenile. But what it is NOT is an attack...it's a criticism of professional product, in the case of an A's reporter directly on-topic, and whether you agree or disagree with the comment it is legitimate criticism, though in some cases cringe-worthy.
And that's my problem with your response below. People often call criticism which is harsh and direct "a personal attack." But it isn't an attack, even if it's immature, so long as the critique is directed at work product and not, say, family or appearance. And from one who has repeatedly criticized Larry Davis for being fat (among other non-personal attacks), your outrage rings hollow.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:04 PM PST
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Hey, FSU, I would like to know if you're right.
So, please, provide evidence of the weakness of Urban's journalistic skills, the predictability of his opinions, his susceptibility to the influence of management or clubhouse faction.
I would like to know if you're right here.
So please present the evidence. It can't be hard to find if you're right.
I am very sickened by the constant devolving of threads or mini-threads into "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!"
Just present your reasons. Please.
Signed, an atypical reader
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 8:13 PM PST
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Sorry campy, you'll have to do your own homework
as mikeA notes, AN has had hundreds of posts on this. There's the Bradley piece of course (and subsequent events don't retroactively make bad anonymously sourced journalism good...Slusser said she wouldn't have written such a piece). There's all the odd baseball opinions in the interview here. There's the bi-annual July and November predictions that "Billy's gonna make a big move soon." There's the book Aces, which besides being flat-out bad writing, made for an awfully compromised beat writer, given that he was depending on three players liking him enough to source his book while ostensibly reporting objectively on those players every day. That raises the other objectivity question, given that Urban is in fact employed by MLB and its partner clubs. There have been multiple credible speculations that Urban has run stories planted anonymously by Kotsay, Zito, and "management," which serve the interests of those parties and not those of the readers. There's the KNBR talk gigs in which he said the Giants should throw at Buck, and the others when he said Hank Aaron wouldn't watch Bonds break the record because Hank was jealous.
That's from a few minutes off the top of my head. Try the search function.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:30 PM PST
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Oh, and try examiner.com
His archive of columns speaks for itself...he's just not a good writer. In my opinion, as he tries to be a straight reporter on the A's, a columnist for the Ex, and a talk radio personality for KNBR, he fails at each and would be better served (in quality terms) by picking one and sticking with it. I understand that's perhaps not as lucrative, but there's a name for writers who crank out copy to make bucks as opposed to writing good stuff. They're called hacks.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:36 PM PST
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Simple point.
I'm aware he's not a good writer. When I look for good writing, I don't look to anybody's sports page. Let's face it; as far as sports writers [or at least baseball writers] are concerned, the best is, what, Roger Angell? Anybody think Roger Angell is one of the ten best writers of the twentieth century? Okay, the ten best in English in the twentieth century? Keep whittling down -- keep whittling ...
I'm also aware that there have been many comments on AN condemning Urban. I'll just say that they vary wildly in the extent to which they attempt to ground their criticisms in facts. I know how to use a search function, too, and I know that it generally turns up sh#t.
Nobody's writing speaks for itself. That is the problem. In the meantime, it is cheap and lazy to say that this person is lousy, incompetent, uninformed, demonic, etc. without presenting evidence ... and then, when evidence is demanded, to point in a condescending way to other places where the person in question is described as lousy, incompetent, uninformed . . .
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 9:27 PM PST
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If you're a "reporter"
and your writing doesn't speak for itself, well, I suppose that might explain branching out into radio.
I don't see the condescension, sorry. Though I do sympathize with the failings of the search function.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 9:40 PM PST
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Show me an instance
of a writer whose writing speaks for itself, and explain to me, please, how the writing does this.
Apparently you don't see the condescension in saying
That's from a few minutes off the top of my head. Try the search function.
-- but of course you do. You wrote it, and the condescension drips.
Please, please, don't make the next most predictable play ... "I was being ironic" ...
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:08 PM PST
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That *was* from a few minutes off the
top of my head, and I do recommend the search function if you genuinely wish to acquaint yourself with the rich history of Urban's writing and AN's reaction thereto. I was being neither ironic nor condescending.
But since I actually believe my writing does speak for itself, and you feel that's not possible, I can see how you'd infer the worst. (now that's condescension!)
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 10:14 PM PST
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I'm acquainted.
And familiar.
And bored.
You didn't bother to explain how writing can speak for itself; you merely asserted that it does, at least in your case.
I find it interesting that the predicate you ascribe to yourself is "believe" whereas the predicate you ascribe to me is "feel".
Inferring the worst? Condescending? Try again. When I accused you of such things as condescension I presented your own, overtly condescending, statement. You seem to think random italicization of words in your own statements suffices. In that you are wrong.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:41 PM PST
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care to dispute my "evidence"
that you requested some way down the thread?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 10:45 PM PST
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Dispute, or consider.
Always willing to. Just tell me: Do you mean the post you titled "I don't have the energy to ..." or something further down?
You know that it's tough to know what texts people are referring to in this messy, evolving blog business.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:53 PM PST
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"don't have the energy to" is the one
curious to see if you can mount some reasonable baseball arguments against it. I suspect not.
Also: FSU's writing speaks for itself, and far surpasses what anyone else has done on this site.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:20 PM PST
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Thanks for responding.
I'm still waiting to have someone explain how anyone's writing can speak for itself. Shakespeare's, Homer's, Dave Barry's, I don't give a crap. Explain, please, how writing can speak without an interpreter.
Now, on to your challenge, MikeA.
Regarding the initial quotation from Urban -- well, I found that very bizarre. Just to descend to standard blog-talk, mind-blowing WTF-ness. Then I stopped to ask myself why.
I came up with:
Harden has proven that he has fantastic ability at his position, when healthy, which he almost never is. Crosby has proven, at most, that he at most might have above-mediocre ability at his position, when healthy (which he all-too-often is!).
I agree with you that it is an extremely silly comparison. Well, you called it an analogy that was beyond absurd. Can we split the difference here? Even if not, I wouldn't see the mere reference to this as proof of Urban's, as you might put it, full-of-shit-ness.
As far as Urban's assessment of Cust in comparison to your assessment stands, I have to admit, I see a standoff. Urban says there's only one MAJOR LEAGUE season there, and he's not happy to predict Cust's future on that basis.
I'm sorry, MikeA, but what you wrote from that point on was simply unintelligible. At least to me, and I'm guessing to other people also, since people generally respond to your posts but there were no substantive responses.
I will say this:
You made it MY responsibility to verify YOUR claim that Urban is, as you would put it in your broad way, "full of shit."
You failed to provide the evidence.
And the nature of your claim was such as to devalue any potential evidence, for or against.
Big. Fat. Broad. Claims.
"Sucks." "Full of shit." Etc.
Enjoy living in your world.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 11:58 PM PST
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As for writing speaking for itself
I just meant that FSU is by far the best writer we have here. That is an opinion, but a widely shared opinion. I didn't mean it in a literal sense, just in a "FSU's writing is awesome" sense.
As for Urban: I had hoped to make it clear that this interview alone does not condemn him to stupidity. But if you had read AN for the past two years, or read the mailbag in that time period, the conclusion is inescapable. I didn't feel like going through all of that. I will admit that I failed to provide conclusive evidence that Urban is full of shit, but rest assured that evidence exists. (And I agree that it's my burden of proof, not yours).
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 12:22 AM PST
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No man but a blockhead ever wrote ...
... except for money.
by monkeyball on
Nov 6, 2007 10:01 AM PST
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Well, given the impoverished lot of so many
great writers, all I can say is thank goodness for blockheads. <laces shoes, lines up to kick football>
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 6, 2007 10:13 AM PST
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Calling a journalist a hack is a strong assertion
A very strong statement "He's a hack." may be true, but because of it's harshness requires strong evidence.
Just flatly stating it is tantamount to an attack. If you instead begin with a list of his journalistic failing, unbalanced by any redeeming qualities, you can lead the reader to the conclusion much better than straight name calling.
Here is a start.
"Why would Michael Urban go through so much trouble to tout the fact he could have said bad things about Bradley. Does he think that casting aspersion about a player in a vague and hard to refute manner, that he is being a gentleman? No. It shows he is putting a lacy frill on the dagger he uses to backstab a player with. "
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 9:28 PM PST
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Elegantly stated
But here's the thing: eloquence can't be a working definition of unfair attack versus legit critique either. It's either OK to criticize the reporters and the job they do, or it isn't. I suppose we'll find out. Or not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 10:02 PM PST
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So my post and FSU's post add up to zero
I'm glad to see you grappling with statistical concepts. Was FSU's post + my post average or replacement level? I kid.
Nico: What if Blez gave a Bobby Crosby interview? I would imagine that you wouldn't criticize him on that thread, but would you stop afterwards?
What if Blez interviewed Larry Davis, and he proceeded to take part in the AN community? (As FSU mentioned), would you stop the fat jokes? Would you stop claiming that he's completely incompetent and living in the '70s? Urban's hackery is as obvious to me (really, more obvious) than Davis's incompetence is to you. Please explain to me the difference.
I don't like the fact that the oaklandathletics.com reporter is a hack. That is a comment on his skills as a journalist. He may be a perfectly good guy, I don't know. But I don't feel at all bad about expressing my opinion on his hackish work.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 8:28 PM PST
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Again, I ask,
present evidence of his "hackishness."
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 8:34 PM PST
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The only reason you think Urban's a hack
by jeepers on
Nov 6, 2007 10:42 PM PST
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My take, FSU: that the difference is
there is a history on AN of Urban - not his opinions - being insulted and attacked at a pretty vitriolic level. So Blez is just asking the community not to greet Urban with rants that distract the community from commenting on the interview's content.
"Does Urban get a free pass about on-topic journalism critiques just because he posts (rarely) and lets Blez interview him?" Absolutely not.
But does Urban get a free pass from having his emergence generate rants from those who don't like his work telling him how awful he is? I would hope so - I would hope so for ANYONE.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 7:49 PM PST
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"Does Urban get a free pass about on-topic journalism critiques just because he posts (rarely) and lets Blez interview him?" Absolutely not.
You are absolutely wrong. FSU's analogy to Steward and especially Ratto is spot on. No one bats an eye when Ratto's ridiculous columns are attacked (Rubin Sierra does, but he actually engages in the debate. (I like Rubin Sierra.)) If Blez interviewed Ratto for insights on the A's, and then we called him on his inane comments, I would think Blez would respond similarly to the Urban situation, perhaps deleting a diary and scolding us not to criticize "valued community member Ray Ratto."
I enjoyed this interview. Urban provided some good behind the scenes info. I'm glad that Blez was able to get that. But I would definitely not accept this value in a trade for my ability to mention the fairly obvious fact that Urban is a hack, and nothing he says ought to be taken very seriously.
Finally, Nico:
If you had read the DLDs the past few years, you would find a chorus of people attacking Urban's opinions during that time. Many of us have personal animus towards Urban, and that may be unacceptable, but Urban is plainly full of shit about baseball (demonstrated multiple times in this very interview), and we can't be expected to remain silent about that.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 8:08 PM PST
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Habeas corpus, please.
Present the evidence.
Urban is plainly full of shit about baseball (demonstrated multiple times in this very interview)
So prove it. Don't just say it, prove it. Since it's so plain, and since it was demonstrated multiple times, proving it won't be hard.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 8:19 PM PST
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I don't have the energy to
reach into the archives to expose his madness, so I'll just take this interview as a small slice of his full-of-shit-ness.
I see him as a position-player equivalent to Harden, to an extent. Harden has the more mind-blowing talent, as evidenced by the brilliance we've seen from him when healthy, but I still think Crosby can be a very good player if he can stay on the field.
Think about that analogy for minute. It is beyond absurd.
I can't say that I'm fully sold on Cust for the simple reason that he's only had one good year.
Cust is unlikely to be as successful in 2008 as he was in 2007, but this is just nonsense. Cust has had a bunch of great years, but most of them have been in the minors because he can't play defense.
If the A's were able to get that big right-handed stick I mentioned earlier (he's a corner outfielder in my little GM fantasy), I could see Barton as their DH and Swisher moved, once and for all and forever, to first base.
This is profoundly stupid. Corner outfield is the least area of need (Urban apparently thinks that a RH bat trumps everything), and he seems content to add a corner OFer or Bonds, and leave Cust (the A's best hitter last year by far!) out of the lineup. Everyone on AN understands that SS and CF are the weaknesses on this team, but Urban does not and is proliferating crazy ideas on oaklandathletics.com.
He apparantly thinks Suzuki is the best bet at catcher next year, but nevertheless thinks that if Bowen beats him out, he should hit in front of Ellis. Just complete nonsense.
Urban has inside info on the team, and I'm glad to hear it, but his opinions are transparently stupid, and I think it is worth mentioning on an A's blog that our mlb.com reporter doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 8:45 PM PST
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I don't actually care about this debate ...
I just find it amusing.
But everything you cite here is simply a matter of reasonably differing opinion or less than ideal writing.
- Crosby-Harden: What he's getting at is reasonable -- that Crosby, like Harden has the potential to be a valuable player, if he can get and stay healthy. Obviously Harden is potentially much, much better than Crosby and his answer stumbled a bit in getting at this difference, but his point is a reasonable one.
- Cust wouldn't be anywhere near the first player (on the A's in the last couple of years -- Dan Johnson, I'm looking at you) to tear it up in the minor leagues, start strong in the Majors and then fall of precipitously. I don't think it'll happen ... but it wouldn't be without precedent.
- Urban is not in the minority in thinking we're badly in need of a RH, power bat. I happen to think the obsession is overrated, but what can you do? Cust wouldn't disappear, he'd be one of 5 guys splitting time between 4 positions. There's more than enough PT to go around. It'd certainly be more valuable to add that bat at SS or CF -- but to the best of my knowledge, there are no such options at SS and the CF options are going to be terribly expensive and, in my opinion, are horribly overrated.
- Suzuki has the upper hand on the job because he is presumed to be the future of the position and his superior defensive value. I definitely expect Bowen to outhit him, assuming a reasonable amount of PT.
In short, while I agree that there is plenty to disagree with about the opinions he offered, the idea that it is transparently stupid is overstated at best ...
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 12:21 AM PST
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Hmmm, don't know about that
- I find it difficult to make any reasonable connection between Harden and Crosby. If the similarity is that they both have "the potential to be a valuable player" that's pretty weak.
- Cust will probably drop off somewhat... But he was kicking serious ass in the minors, to a much greater extent than DJ, or other similar players. And my complaint with Urban was that he is so willing to just write him out of the batting order.
- We could use a RH power bat. But why would we pay for one at a position (DH, 1B, corner OF) that is already covered, when we need pitching? (or even if we didn't need pitching)
- I don't really know whether Suzuki or Bowen would hit better next year. I'm not sure where this Bowen enthusiasm comes from. He hasn't hit well in the minors or the majors. The Urban-bizarreness comes from the fact that he would hit above Ellis. I just can't think of any reasonable basis for that. I can only conclude that he likes Bowen for some reason.
Why should we care what this guy says?
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 12:43 AM PST
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mikeA, what you stat geeks
with your noses in your spreadsheets don't understand is that Cust is an AAAA hitter who'll be destroyed by major league pitching, whereas Crosby has great tools that (unnamed) scouts love.
Stat geeks need to get those nose out of their spreadsheets and talk to more (unnamed) scouts.
by rfloh on
Nov 6, 2007 12:49 AM PST
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Well, I disagree ...
- Crosby and Harden are both young players with significant unrealized potential, presumably due largely to injuries. What's difficult about that?
- The only difference in their overall minor league numbers is that Cust was left down for an extra two years (Cust got his for good call up at 28, DJ 26) and absolutely manhandled AAA pitching over those two years. If DJ had been in AAA the last two years, he probably would have eliminated the relatively small difference in their performances. It's simply not true to say that Cust "was kicking serious ass in the minors, to a much greater extent than DJ."
- Like I said, there's always room for 5 guys in the DH/1b/COF rotation. I doubt we're going to spend a lot of money on whatever pitcher(s) we might bring in. There's just no value this year in starting pitching. We have 1-3 covered and plenty of potential #5s, so look for Beane to go something like the Redmond route (ideally without the bad multi-year contract) to fill that hole unless they decide to move Duke to the rotation, in which case we'll bring in another Embree like pitcher or two to help shore up the 'pen. Either way, it'll be cheap. To answer your ultimate question, though, why do it? A couple of reasons -- it'll excite the fans, chicks dig the long ball, after all; and because we have the money to spend and nothing more useful to spend it on (assuming that you believe as I do that all of the SP, SS and CF free agents are badly overpriced or under talented).
- ZIPS projects him to out OPS Suzuki .757 to .694. I'd say that's a fairly reasonable basis for that assumption. I agree that moving him above Ellis is a bit odd, but it's not that big of a difference. Maybe he wants to avoid breaking up his three good base runners at the bottom of the lineup.
Why should you care what he says? I don't know, but you seem to care. You seem to care a whole heck of a lot.
I'm pretty much back to where I started ... while there are certainly room for reasonable critiques, nothing in these examples is at all egregious.
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 9:13 AM PST
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Harden is awesome when healthy. Crosby sucks when healthy. Who thinks that Crosby has huge unreliazed potential due to injuries? I sure don't.
You are right about Cust/DJ in the minors.
That's enough for now...
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 12:25 PM PST
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Crosby does not ... or at least may not ...
suck when healthy.
The difference is that Harden is awesome when he can pitch. He doesn't actually have to be healthy to play well.
With Crosby, there has never been any real sustained period since his last good season when he was healthy. It's entirely possible that he's actually not any good or that he'll never actually be able to get and stay healthy. But it's also entirely factual that he has been a good player in the past and since then the sample size of healthy at bats is pathetically small.
That'll be enough ... once I get back to the point ... we've had a pretty reasonable baseball discussion about the points Urban made ... maybe I'm just a better writer than Urban and that's allowing for more productive communication, but ... well you know where I'm going with that.
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 12:58 PM PST
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Regardless of how you feel
about Ratto, this may be the funniest sports column I've ever read: Gamboa
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 8:57 PM PST
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I like mikeA!
Interestingly, this whole fact-opinion discussion you're having with campy touches on something I thought I should have said at AN Day, when talking Ratto with you and Bhaskar. Which was this: I think Ratto stands, to some extent, for the proposition that you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion on sports. Casual fans can have opinions, and they can be legitimate ones. And I think that in itself is a refreshing proposition, that we should not all shut up and let the experts do all the talking, but rather we should all feel free to converse.
Which helps explain why I'm inclined to agree with Leopold Bloom, below, who says--it's a matter of opinion, whether Urban sucks, or rather, the degree of his suckitude. But I would also add that there are shades of grey between fact and opinion. Not everyone agrees that Pulp Fiction is a great movie--but most people do. We do not ask movie critics to "prove" that Pulp Fiction is great, or that Gigli sucks (I haven't seen it, myself). But we ask them to write us a coherent review, rather than merely choosing a number of stars.
The link between the two paragraphs is a belief on my part that while argument is worthwhile and truth can be pursued, what we really pursue is ... ahh, shit, this argument is getting to big for me. I need to re-read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 1:43 AM PST
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What we really pursue is... *Quality*!
Or gumption. Wait, what?
by Elvez on
Nov 6, 2007 7:55 AM PST
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He only gets a free pass from personal attacks.
Criticism of his opinions is fair game. God knows we've both had our opinions criticized a fair amount on this iste.
by jeepers on
Nov 6, 2007 10:32 PM PST
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You're completely full of shit ...
but you're still a great guy!!!
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 10:43 PM PST
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which is typical of AN
to think that "given" poster believes he is writing about what he read, when he really is writing about ("you're fullashit") what he feels, after reading....sorta reading....skipping a few lines...adding a few ideas not written.
It's the same all over the internet. I don't expect it to get better, I just expect it to bear fruit in the generally-increasing insanity out there (that comes into my POV).
by One won lost won on
Nov 7, 2007 2:16 PM PST
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rich harden ... as a red sock.
UGH. i don't even want to IMAGINE that!
by gotgreen on
Nov 5, 2007 12:19 PM PST
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i do
they probably wouldn't have won if he was on their team assuming we got something of value for him (Lester or Pedroia)
If it takes a Rich Harden on the Red Sox to ensure a Rockies victory, then, by god, it's a good thing.
by jubjub on
Nov 5, 2007 12:59 PM PST
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I'd be able to enjoy it when he went
down with his annual injury, rather than shrug my shoulders indifferently.
by OldhamA on
Nov 5, 2007 3:57 PM PST
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Great interview
I actually liked the article on Bradley and I agreed with it from Day one and still maintain he is just a bad guy. Interesting to hear that he changed after the conference call for a year or so. I really resepct Urban's writing and inside sources. Loved the interview, thanks Blaz.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 5, 2007 2:03 PM PST
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Did Milton really change? I beg to differ, he
was the same from day 1. When he is happy, he is great, when he is unhappy he is a terror, no body, not Billy Beane, or Urban, who seems so self absorbed, that he thinks he is the reason Milton was on "good " behavior. He has proven he can be anywhere for a short period of time, and get along, but when he explodes, it isn't because of anybody elses doing but his. It is like all athletes say, winning is the cure for all that stinks. People don't change. I don't believe Milton was any more, or less of a problem from day 1, but when the A's started losing, he was the easy scapegoat. That is my undeducated opinion.
by theblackpearl on
Nov 5, 2007 7:05 PM PST
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Doesn't sound uneducated at all to me...
Sounds like an opinion that has been well thought and could very well be right. I was going off the interview that Urban, who is around the team and players a whole lot more than me, seemed to notice a change from that conference call forward. You could very well be dead on that it was more how the team and season were going than any request for him to change his stripes.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 5, 2007 10:10 PM PST
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I actually liked the article on Bradley and I agreed with it from Day one and still maintain he is just a bad guy.
This offends me. I disagree with pretty much everything you say on this site, but I dislike this even more than I dislike the typical Yankees/Red Sox/good-players-of-any-stripe ass-kissing, which is the content of most of your posts lately.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:51 PM PST
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I kiss the Red Sox ass???
I respect the team and tip my cap to them on their win, but that is just what someone does when their team loses. It's called respect and being a good loser. They deserved the championship, not sure what is wrong with that. But I dislike the Red Sox and their fans and have for years, even before it was the cool thing to do.
As for the Yankees, I love Derek Jeter and have since he was a rookie and fully admit that. I love Giambi and have since he was on the A's, he was my favorite player since Rickey Henderson. Sorry that upsets you, but I love the game of baseball and it just so happens that I love the way Jeter plays it and I dont see any reason to stop liking Jason just because he doesnt play in oakland.
As for good players of any stripe? Who else do I kiss the ass of? I can admit and say a player is good without kissing their ass can't I?
As for offending you.....You can't be freaking serious. You are offended because I think Milton Bradley is a bad guy? It is just my opinion that is a bad guy and continues to be a bad guy. I can't stand the guy and couldn't stand him before he was on the A's. But it is just my opinion, how the hell could that possibly offend you?
"Disagree with pretty much everything you say on this site"....I have to admit, I got a kick out of this and laughed hard. Thanks for that.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 5, 2007 10:08 PM PST
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Kissing Sox ass:
"'Tek' is a great dude." Is he? I don't know. Who the fuck cares?
"I'm rooting for 'Beck' to shut them down tonight." (Crude paraphrase) Why root for Beckett if not because he's a good pitcher?
You love great baseball players (which is not necessarily objectionable), and it is ludicrous to deny that.
These sentiments reek of the fact that you watch/listen to ESPN much of the day and (consciously or not) echo their opinions.
I'm offended because you equate having a problem controlling one's temper with "being a bad guy." MB has a bad temper. I don't know if he's a better guy than me or you, or whether I'm a better guy than you. I'm not such a good guy, and that sucks. But I do know that you don't have any clue about what it means to be a bad or good guy.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 10:25 PM PST
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mikeA please inlighten us
as to what makes someone a good guy and what makes someone a bad guy?
- It is generally assumed that beating your wife is bad. Are you saying it isn't? MB has been arrested for it.
One more thing. I couldn't careless if you disagree with anything I say as your opinion on me has no barring on my professional or personal life so please leave the lame ad hominem attacks to the play ground. I have more respect for Oaktown Power for being man enough to call you out!
by TarJ89 on
Nov 6, 2007 5:51 AM PST
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Hahaha....you are classic.
I said Tek was a great dude because he spent his Halloween night on his front lawn signing autographs for kids. That is extremely cool and had nothign to do with whether he plays for the Red Sox or the Royals. If Mike Sweeney or Ryan Garko or Takashi Saito did that, I would say the same thing.
Yes, I love a lot of great baseball players. I love the game and I like watching it played well. I love watching Beckett pitch, especially in the playoffs, that doesn't mean I am kissing his ass because I think he is a great talent. Goodness, I respect his abilities and like to watch them....sorry that offends you.
My favorite quote of yours...."But I do know that you don't have any clue about what it means to be a bad or good guy." And how exactly do you know this? Is this all the time we spend hanging out talking about it on the weekends? Is it all the times you have met me and we discussed people? No, it comes from me having an opinion on Milton Bradley who you happen to like. I'm fine that you like Bradley and I do not take your liking him as a severe character flaw of yours, just an opinion you hold. I just happen to have the opposite opinion of you and think he is a bad guy....and you jump to the fact that you "know" I dont have a clue what it takes to be a good or bad guy. Couldnt be more comedic if you tried, way to jump to a generalized conclusion because of my disagreement with you about one guy.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 6, 2007 10:57 AM PST
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Heaven forbid someone actually like BASEBALL
on a baseball site.
So you hate the Red Sox. I do too. But if someone wants to talk about baseball with me, guess what, that includes the Red Sox.
And if someone's favorite player is not on the A's, why in the world does it matter to you?
How in the WORLD are you offended on a baseball blog when someone wants to talk about good baseball players?
Just ridiculous.
It is possible to be an A's fan and at the same time, appreciate qualities of players from other teams.
by baseballgirl on
Nov 6, 2007 11:17 AM PST
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I also really enjoy Urban's writing
and thought this was a great interview. I even agree with almost everythig he says EXCEPT for his take on Crosby (which to his credit he admits is probably too forgiving). Crosby has been given ample opportunity to show what he can do as a full-time player and just flat fails at being anything above mediocre.
The unfortunate thing about his injury this year, and this was mentioned here at AN during after the injury, is that people (including coaches, front office staff and the reporters) are going to keep talking about his MVP potential "if only he was injury free". Well, the truth is that Crosby was injury free for 4 months this year and was below average at best for all of it
by faninphilly on
Nov 5, 2007 3:37 PM PST
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Man, I wonder.
What would the Sox have given us for Harden? Would Jacoby Ellsbury be our centerfielder next year?
Great interview.
by jeepers on
Nov 5, 2007 6:01 PM PST
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I aslo wonder
I wonder whether the Papelbon rumours is even true?
by rfloh on
Nov 6, 2007 12:23 AM PST
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It wasnt a rumor...
Paps was absolutely going to be a starter in the offseason and even the first couple of weeks of Spring. They were stretching him out and slowly increasing his pitch count.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 6, 2007 10:59 AM PST
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I wasn't clear
I meant the Harden rumoured "trade".
by rfloh on
Nov 6, 2007 12:14 PM PST
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Oh.....I dont think Urban meant that...
I read it again and I think he means they were going to put Paps in the rotation and trade someone else for Harden, not Papelbon.
by OaktownPower on
Nov 6, 2007 12:21 PM PST
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Sorry - Urban is still a tool and
should go work across the Bay
by Hawk on
Nov 5, 2007 6:08 PM PST
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One word: Hank.
by The Dogfather on
Nov 5, 2007 6:39 PM PST
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Stirring the pot is the job description
No trace of this line of thinking when giving the Bonds/Cust answer (which assumed that that is even the choice, which is pretty absurd, though less absurd than the notion that what the A's really need is a corner outfielder.)
You took notice of his thoughts on Hank, and it raised your dander, which is of course the whole point radioratings-wise. The only recourse is clever tags....
(I'm sure you realize all that, just felt like saying it)
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:26 PM PST
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Blez, as much as I always appreciate
your interviews I can't always say I think they're "great reads" simply because so often your excellent questions are met with predictable platitude answers - which is not your fault.
However, this interview, IMO, rises way above that inherent problem and is both interesting and uniquely informative. Great job, Blez, and thank you, Mychael, for your candor. I actually learned a lot that I didn't know, and that seldom happens in the careful world of media reporting.
So thank you both!
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 6:46 PM PST
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I agree with this assessment
FWIW.
Having actually spoken with Mychael Urban and exchanged a couple of e-mails, I think his positives outweigh all the critical interpretations of the guy. It reminds me of the tremendous parsing of BBeane's remarks that went on, on AN, about Beane's not signing the prospect Smoak (sic) and how several ANers dissected each sentence for hidden meaning, seeking to uncover the "real truth" by parsing the interview with Blez.
It was ridiculous.
Really, just take these Blez interviews at face value, then be done. By analogy, if you have an apple tree that gives really good apples, but you bite into one and it's bad, cast it aside, spit it out. An analysis of why it's bad is simply not worth the time.
Anecdotally, I find that writers here (and I distinguish between their writer selves versus their whole persons)often arrive at a point of view and proceed to defend that view to the last electron, and beyond! It is an inherent problem of "internet debate".
Why not say, "Okay..." and then move on??
by One won lost won on
Nov 7, 2007 2:32 PM PST
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Thanks, Blez, really enjoyed the article
although can't figure out why he likes Bowen so much over Suzuki. I thought Suzuki put up surprising power numbers in his first half season. I do hope we keep Bowen as a backup and he does get regular playing time.
by china bob on
Nov 5, 2007 7:03 PM PST
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Bowen
It is one bizarre opinion among many (Bowen should hit in front of Ellis???). I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:15 PM PST
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He sure hit the ball.
Don't know why it's bizarre to reward performance. There was no suggestion that Bowen should be given the job. It was only suggested that if he's going to continue to hit above .300 with pop, maybe he shouldn't be prevented from doing so.
by jeepers on
Nov 6, 2007 10:37 PM PST
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He isn't...
so don't worry about it.
I think Bowen is a fine option as the backup catcher, but there's absolutely nothing in his track record that suggests he'll be a .300 hitter.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 7, 2007 10:28 AM PST
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Bowen has never hit .300
career minor league BA: .238
career major league BA: .220
last year's BA: .231
by mikeA on
Nov 7, 2007 10:47 AM PST
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2003 in AA .306
Buyah!
by devo on
Nov 7, 2007 12:32 PM PST
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He's big, and a switch hitter
I like his stroke. Having a switch-hitter at six would mess up a lot of strategies with pitching substitutions.
I thought Bowen looked good, for the limited duty he got. Hit two (RH, LH) in a game. I know a PB he made probably cost the A's a game, but I kind of like the "big guy" lineup, that looks like a football team, than the "Freddy Patek" approach. Lansford used to comment about that, about the late 80s A's. Even Ricky was a running back at Oakland Tech!
All in my modest unreferenced (stats) opinion.
by One won lost won on
Nov 7, 2007 2:39 PM PST
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Doesn't matter
he hit when he got a chance last year. If he does it again in spring training, and again when he gets to spell Suzuki, he should get more time. Using his minor league track record against him in spite of his success with us last year is cutting off our nose to spite our face. People who figure it out late and in the bigs is rare, but not impossible.
by jeepers on
Nov 7, 2007 4:31 PM PST
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I don't have anything against Bowen...
I'm glad he's on the team. He might well be better than Suzuki next year. I'd still play Suzuki because he's 2 1/2 years younger and has the better track record besides, but that is arguable.
But he can't "keep hitting over .300 with pop" because he's never done anything like that. And the notion that his good performance in 53 PAs when he got to the A's represents him "figuring it out" (while ignoring the entire rest of his career) is absurd. He might have figured it out, or will figure it out next year. So might Crosby or DJ. So might anyone. But why should we expect them to?
To recap:
Your position:
He's never hit the minors.
He's never hit in the majors.
Doesn't matter, because he hit well in 53 PAs for the A's when you were paying attention.
by mikeA on
Nov 7, 2007 5:48 PM PST
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Bullpen
I saw recently that the A's bullpen ranked in the bottom 5 in the AL according to Baseball Prospectus. If Duke is in the starting rotation, which is a good move, it's not clear how much improved the bullpen will be next year it it will be mostly the same cast as this year. I suppose Calero would have to regain his form and have Embree, Street and Calero take on the vast majority of the innings to see an improvement over 2007. Unless one counts on breakthroughs by Brown, Casilla and Blevins, none of whom has excelled at the major league level. It's hard to build a team around pitching if the bullpen isn't very good.
by SA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:18 PM PST
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Some of this could relate to
how often the A's used guys like Colby Lewis, Ruddy Lugo, Jay Marshall, etc. - guys who would have gotten between 0-30 innings had the best arms not gone down.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 7:58 PM PST
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Urban is in a really unusual position
on this site isn't he? He's a poster who one would assume should be granted the same degree of respect and consideration as any other member. Yet he is also an employee of the A's organization who happens to hold media credentials. His level of access to the organization would certainly grant him an opportunity to have a much more informed opinion on player interactions than any of us. Yet that won't stop anyone from bashing his opinion on a given player despite the fact that they have zero working knowledge of said player. Strange when you think about it. Yet I clearly recall that I was disgusted with his article on Bradley at the time it came out. I assumed his motivation for writing the article was less than pristine. As it turns out, Bradley has been consistent with every team he has been on, including the A's. His actions speak volumes about his character and temperament. I was wrong about Urban at the time.
Which is not to say that he should be given a pass. His level of access clearly puts him in a position that is distinct from other AN users. And AN has never been shy about bashing someone's opinion. All in all, I enjoy the fact that people with working ties to the A's will frequent this site and make contributions. I don't imagine these folks are required by their employer to interact with AN, so I understand why Blez would insist that other posters use care in their critiques.
by alox on
Nov 5, 2007 8:32 PM PST
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Love your insights, alox. Spot on.
I actually recall being very critical of Urban's Bradley-expose article when it came out too. I didn't like the "unnamed sources..." aspect - I felt either name sources or don't write the piece. I never, however, said anything nasty about Mr. Urban himself or extrapolated that one piece to judge his work in general. I can't say I'm familiar with a wide range of his work (KNBR, Aces), but what I've seen has made me wonder what the heck people get so riled up about. As this interview demonstrates, the guy knows more than any of us, is articulate, and has some opinions we don't agree with. Big wow.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 8:53 PM PST
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Nope. If I ignore,
don't assume I have no reply. Just assume I don't wish to engage in conversation with you.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 10:38 PM PST
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Thanks. To be honest,
I wasn't so much interested in defending Urban. In his chosen profession he has to accept that there will be a certain level of criticism, warranted or not. He's certainly written material that deserves to be criticized. I am intrigued by FSU and mikeA's vehemence concerning all things urban (Fremont?) in this thread. They are both articulate individuals with well constructed opinions. I don't often find myself disagreeing with their opinions, and much of what they say in this thread is not without merit. Urban would do well to take their critiques to heart. I certainly don't expect that Urban should be held to the conventional journalist creed. He works directly for the A's reporting on the A's. How much autonomy can he really be expected to have? Besides which, it's just baseball. Nonetheless, I'd absolutely love to see an exchange between the three of them on this site.
In an age of competing agenda's, it's no mean feat what Blez has been able to accomplish. I don't imagine it's easy arranging these interviews. There's really nothing in it for Urban other than heartache, so it's to his credit that he agreed to do it. I enjoyed it for what it was.
by alox on
Nov 5, 2007 9:34 PM PST
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"knows more than any of us"?
In the sense that he has access, and hence inside information about what goes on in the locker room, sure. In the sense that his opinions or predictions are worthwhile, absolutely not.
by andeux on
Nov 6, 2007 10:16 AM PST
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I've never said that people can't say
that they don't agree with Urban's opinions. If you disagree with them, then by all means, do so. But there is a way of disagreeing where you don't have to attack the person. And I'm sorry but in my opinion, saying someone "sucks" at their job is a personal attack because in this country so many people define who they are by what they do. That's just a fact of life.
I don't attack Ray Ratto constantly. I attack him when he says something stupid for that stupid thing he says. I attacked him repeatedly throughout the 2005 season because of his prediction that the A's wouldn't win 60 games after the Hudson and Mulder deals. I think it's fine to go after someone when you disagree with their points, but to say they suck at their job is ridiculous and just mean-spirited.
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 9:35 PM PST
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I think ESPN's producers suck at their jobs
because they cover the A's so poorly. By your standard that's an attack. That's a silly standard.
An enormous amount of of fodder for discussion here is based on media about the A's. Criticizing the job the media members do covering the A's is fundamental; you literally could not have a complete site without it.
Some ANers believe Billy Beane sucks at his job lately. Others think Lew Wolff sucks at his. Those are opinions, right or wrong...are they also attacks? I sure hope not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 9:52 PM PST
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Let me put it this way
If someone told you that you sucked at your job, would you not take that personally? It's a personal statement because of what your job entails in this country.
And I do believe that people that say that Billy Beane or Lew Wolff suck at their jobs are not contributing anything useful to the site, which I suppose is different than a personal attack. I've stated that many times in the past and I think AN is better than that. On the other hand, saying that they suck without pointing to distinct reasons for that argument is pretty much a violation of the CGs. See number 4.
When I say ESPN sucks, usually I back up that post with distinct reasons pointing to exactly why I believe that pointing to specific failings of the network. I believe I've even recommended how ESPN could greatly improve in the future. When Nico makes negative statements about Bobby Crosby, it's usually backed up with why he has issues with Crosby's refusal to adjust his batting style or some other reason related to what he does.
My main point is that there's a huge difference between someone who is constructive and someone who is destructive. I think repeating over and over again that Urban is a hack is destructive and serves no purpose whatsoever. If someone disagrees with things he said in the interview, then say as much and point out why. I have no problem with that.
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 10:28 PM PST
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And I do believe that people that say that Billy Beane or Lew Wolff suck at their jobs are not contributing anything useful to the site, which I suppose is different than a personal attack. I've stated that many times in the past and I think AN is better than that.
Couldn't disagree more. I think the Beane critics generally don't know what they're talking about, but that's because Beane is a good GM. Ripping Beane qua ripping Beane is not a problem. LL is the best SBN site in my opinion and they rip the FO mercilessly, much more than anyone does on AN. What if you thought BB and Wolff really did suck at their jobs? Would you just keep silent out of access/decorum? That would not be the sort of blog I would want to go to.
Here is another American Value for you to ponder: Jobs should be appropriated according to merit (Slusser) rather than a good-old-boy network (Urban). Should your readers not point this out because Urban might be reading it?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 10:38 PM PST
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Are you not reading what I'm saying?
I have no problem with people saying Beane stinks at his job as long as they back up what they're saying. Throwing out accusations like "Urban got his job because he's part of a good-ol-boy network" without having an iota of proof or anything of substance to back it up is far different from someone saying Beane is an idiot because he acquired Jason Kendall or signed Arthur Rhodes. I'll argue back why I disagree on the Beane stinks argument, but they're entitled to say it if they back it up.
There's a HUGE difference there. Gigantic.
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 10:49 PM PST
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I don't know how Urban got his job
I suspect it was largely based on his USF baseball career. I could be wrong about that.
There is voluminous evidence presented by myself and many others over the years that Urban is a hack. It is not even a controversial point in the DLD. I presented some of his dumbass opinions above in this very interview. There are a lot more where that came from (An AL West scout told him that Blanton knows how to win, which was turned into an article.)
Bottom line: No one has given especially convincing evidence in this thread that Urban is hack, but why should we? We've provided that evidence piecemeal over that past few years. Must we dredge it up through the not-very-good AN search function?
Hundreds of instances of Urban being a joke add up to those of us who are aware of those instances not having to justify calling him a hack.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:04 PM PST
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Beane sucks = Bad
Beane sucks because = Okay
by devo on
Nov 5, 2007 10:55 PM PST
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And isn't
"Urban sucks because" the relevant comparison?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:05 PM PST
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It is ...
I'm not saying one way or the other where your contributions to this discussion fall on that scale ... just trying to help clarify what Blez was saying, you seemed to be skipping the key point in your response.
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 12:24 AM PST
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And Blez' key point, which wasn't
"Don't attack Urban" or even "Don't attack his work in general" but just "Could we reply to the content of the interview and not turn this into a meta-thread about the interviewee?"
And a couple people who think they know everything but don't know respect couldn't do that for one thread. And still don't even seem to understand what Blez was asking.
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 8:03 AM PST
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by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 8:16 AM PST
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That's for the whole meta-hoohah,
which looked like it eventually died overnight.
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 8:19 AM PST
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I never met a hoohah I didn't like
Nice pussy, by the way.
What?
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 8:39 AM PST
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but that's an attack
they don't think they know everything
FSU and mA are solid members of the community regardless of how you feel about their behavior in this or other threads
for my own part, the quality of writing in a beat column seems pretty irrelevant as it's just a beat column, and I'm favorably inclined to Urban because of his participation on this site; but I can't find fault with those guys for pretty much the same reason
by ArakSOT on
Nov 6, 2007 8:37 AM PST
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We don't know that, ArakSOT
Only they know whether or not they think they know everything. You and I are merely speculating.
And Poppy is posting pictures of cyclists getting murdered.
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 8:41 AM PST
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I, however, DO know everything.
That's how I know that most of it is completely unimportant and not worth snarking over.
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 8:47 AM PST
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Funny how these snarkfests
are always guys snarking at guys. The females must watch and think "Thank you, O great Lord, for giving me more estrogen and less testosterone!"
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 11:11 AM PST
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Your Midol is in that drawer right over there...
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 11:26 AM PST
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Only a numbskull thinks he knows things ...
... about things he knows nothing about.
by monkeyball on
Nov 6, 2007 9:56 AM PST
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One of my favorite movies.
by Elvez on
Nov 6, 2007 10:26 AM PST
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you, me, xbx, and mikeA
by monkeyball on
Nov 6, 2007 10:53 AM PST
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Blez, your "problem" is that you're too nice
You wrote, "I will always demand that community members show other community members respect." Except to you, apparently.
All you asked is that after you worked your tail off to produce an outstanding interview, that people just put their disrespectful side on the shelf for a moment and not use this interview as an opportunity to derail the discussion towards a meta-discussion of the interviewee's journalistic abilities, who gets to insult whom on AN and why, etc. And you couldn't even get that respect from everyone in your own "house". You are owed a few apologies.
Again, an outstanding interview and thanks both to you and Mr. Urban for making it happen.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 10:30 PM PST
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Oh Jesus H. Christ
Blez is owed apologies because people responded to his interview and posts? On topics he himself raised in his interview and posts? If a comment is only properly respectful when prefaced by the sort of obsequious thanks you've included, count me out. Ridiculous.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 10:45 PM PST
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Allow me to take this opportunity
to be obsequious, purple and clairvoyant.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 11:56 PM PST
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Be oblong and have your knees removed.
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 8:50 AM PST
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Everybody!
Criticize things you don't know about!
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 11:25 AM PST
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I hate sex!
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 4:04 PM PST
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Put a live chicken in your underwear
by EddieVegas_NRAF on
Nov 9, 2007 3:08 PM PST
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OK, OK, I did it twice.
Now what?
by Nico on
Nov 9, 2007 5:29 PM PST
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To be honest,
I wonder if Blez starting out the article by commenting on Urban's place in the AN community, rather than just having the interview, stoked the fires of discord by bringing the issue to mind. 'Course, it is the Urban issue so I doubt anything could stem the problems that arise.
I've made semi-peace with my dislike of Urban's reporting by simply not reading what he writes anymore unless it's my only source of A's news. Susan Slusser is my goddess now. :) And shutting off the radio the second he comes on -- it seems like he goes beyond being deliberately inflammatory for attention on KNBR. Sure, it's a radio personality (I hope), but it's hard for me to accept that he should be divested of complete responsibility for all the bizarre things he says on there since he IS representing himself as himself on there.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on
Nov 6, 2007 9:06 AM PST
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I did that because I know
there is a part of AN that just simply doesn't like Urban and would've likely started in on the Urban sucks rant regardless without even talking about the substance of the interview.
by Blez on
Nov 6, 2007 9:37 AM PST
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What it did was
remind us of the deleted diary business, which was not your finest hour in my opinion.
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 12:18 PM PST
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Subjecting that to analysis
What you're saying is exactly what FSU was saying to you higher up. Calling someone "stupid" is of course not exactly the most constructive criticism in the world. Qualifying it by saying that you're not calling him stupid, but rather attacking "the stupid thing he says" is exactly the same as FSU qualifying the comment "he sucks" by saying "he sucks at his job."
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 12:39 AM PST
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I don't see them as the same at all
Pointing out exactly why something someone said is wrong doesn't paint them with a broad brush of stupidity. It just says that what they said in that instance is wrong in my opinion.
There's a pretty clear difference there I think for most people.
by Blez on
Nov 6, 2007 9:40 AM PST
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"Exactly"
Maybe we should both avoid the word "exactly," since there are lots of shades of gray here. In general, I think that dislike expresses itself with emotional words such as "stupid" and "sucks." But then, to try to keep ourselves within the realm of so-called intelligent discourse, we use caveats. "I wasn't calling you stupid; I was labeling as stupid the things that come out of your mouth." "I wasn't saying you suck as a person; I was saying you suck at your job." In that sense, I am trying to point out, they are both similar--they are both things we say to mitigate the negative opinions we express about other people. But as you point out below, there are varying degrees to which we go to qualify our statements, to be specific, to be constructive.
As for your use of the word exactly, I have a hard time accepting that in all of your criticisms of Ratto, you have pointed out "exactly why something (he) said is wrong." A whole diary entitled Do you speak Ratto-ese? which essentially expressed your assertion that Ratto sucks as a writer (at his job), did not convince me in any way (exactly or even approximately) that something he said was wrong.
I pretty much missed the deleted-diary episode entirely, so I'm reading a lot of this without any context. I'll be interested to see if you try to codify the degree to which we should support our arguments when we slam various public figures. Didn't mean to insult you by using the word "beholden" below; like I said, Ralph and Tom are okay--hell, they're even good. I just happen to like Radnich better.
Thanks for listening. (inserts friendly remark at the end of post as a 'caveat' in order to appear less combative and more articulate and intelligent)
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 12:40 PM PST
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He's not an employee of the A's organization ...
he's an employee of MLB Advanced Media. While his employer does have a direct interest in promoting Major League Baseball and, thus, the A's, he does not answer in any way (aside from access issues, which all journalists are subject to) to anyone directly associated with the A's.
He's not going to write anything too controversial, but neither will any beat writer. That's for blowhards like Ray Ratto. Urban's job is to get access to the players and management so that they'll give him good information -- which means having a good relationship with them.
by devo on
Nov 5, 2007 10:02 PM PST
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True enough.
But I still think it's fair to say he's a defacto employee of the A's. But when you get right down to it, you're right. He works with the same limitations as the other beat writers, but I imagine his association with MLB cuts both ways. Superior level of access, along with more limitations about how he utilizes said access. A strange world indeed to navigate.
by alox on
Nov 5, 2007 11:05 PM PST
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Every employer has its POV
but its in every beat writer's interest to promote the team they cover. Whether you work for MLBAM or the Oakland Tribune -- if people don't care about the team, they won't read your article and you don't have a job.
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 12:27 AM PST
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he's not an employee of the A's
he has contracts with MLB.com (to cover the A's), KNBR and the SF Examiner (to cover the Giants). I imagine he has other gigs as well.
by OaklandSi on
Nov 6, 2007 8:14 AM PST
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Seriously
All of you need to chill out. This is baseball and our official site's beat writer, and that's all. It's not a matter of life-or-death. It's not even all that big of a deal in a meta-A's way. If you don't like Urban, read Slusser. If you don't like Slusser, read Urban.
It's completely inane to argue whether someone sucks or not. It's a matter of opinion. It is not quantifiable whether a writer has chops or not, regardless of your opinion, regardless of whatever anecdotal "evidence" you bring to the forefront. It's a matter of opinion. If you do not like him, don't read Blez's interview with him, and you'll be a lot happier. Regardless, it's nice that Blez makes the effort to fill AN with interesting posts in the off-season.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 10:59 PM PST
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You need to be brought into the battle
It's not just a matter of opinion. Urban says things that are just flat out wrong(Bonds), and people believe him because he's the oaklandathletics.com beat writer!
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:10 PM PST
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It's a battle with nothing to win or lose
It is a matter of opinion. You may disagree with his perspective, but there is no "evidence," there are no "set of facts" that you can produce to say that Urban sucks. It's your opinion that he sucks. And regardless that you think that is the true and just opinion to have, it is still your opinion.
It's clear you think little of his work. It's clear you believe there's some level of conspiracy involved in his retaining employment. It's clear that there are some on this site that agree with you and there are some on this site that disagree with you. All of these are opinions. Not facts.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 11:21 PM PST
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Wrong
Urban often says stuff that is either demonstrably wrong or extremely improbable. It is simply not a matter of opinion. There are no certainties in baseball, only probabilities, but Urban does not understand these probabilities at all.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:44 PM PST
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Okay
so your critique of him includes he's bad at math.
Your opinion of his work is duly noted, as is your penchant for getting the last word. So feel free to continue arguing your point.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 11:53 PM PST
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Everyone says things that are flat out wrong.
That rather extensive list would include even you I presume. Bloom is right concerning quantifying whether or not Urban is a lousy beat writer. It's an entirely subjective experience. He's written things that have made me scratch my head and wonder if he's actually been in the A's clubhouse lately. On the other hand, he's written material that I've found insightful. Not that much different than you yourself. Yes, I realize the difference being that he is compensated for his opinion while for you it's a labor of love, coupled with the fact that you appear to relish verbal jousting.
by alox on
Nov 5, 2007 11:33 PM PST
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Yes, that includes me
I've written a lot of posts here and many of them are flat out wrong. I don't think it's all subjective, though. A lot of things have been proven in baseball analysis, and people like Urban don't even care to acknowledge that. I'm wrong all the damn time, but I'm not afraid to admit it. Urban doesn't even care (or isn't smart enough) to figure out what's true. He gives inane advice in every mailbag.
The difference is: I am interested in the truth because my livelihood does not depend on it. Urban earns his living by stirring the pot, and so it's not particularly reasonable to believe what he says about baseball (especially since he doesn't really know much about baseball anyway.) I might fudge the truth if I had Urban's job, but luckily I don't.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:55 PM PST
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Agreed in part.
Off-season commentary on the Oakland A's is certainly not a matter of life and death.
Also, it is completely inane to argue whether somebody sucks or not. That is because "sucks" is an absolutely empty evaluative claim. It is merely a way of (a) expressing your dislike of the one you claim sucks, (b) presenting your dislike as an objective claim, while (c) making your criticism so general that it cannot be disproven.
It is, in other words, acting like a typical sports fan.
Whether somebody "sucks" or not is, as you say, Leopold, a matter of opinion.
However, it is not a matter of opinion whether a writer writes falsehoods, or falls short of substantiating what s/he writes, or is found deficient in any number of other journalistic virtues.
The ascendance of "sucks" is as damaging as the earlier ascendance of the equally general "is cool" . . . The two of them have obliterated all other predicates, and since the application of either is utterly subjective -- in that neither of them means anything specific -- their conjoined reign delights all who prefer any possibility over that of their being . . . even possibly . . . wrong.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 11:25 PM PST
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but
However, it is not a matter of opinion whether a writer writes falsehoods, or falls short of substantiating what s/he writes, or is found deficient in any number of other journalistic virtues.
But even if we assume this is true and provable and all that, how are you are going to rank exactly what and where makes a beat writer a bad beat writer? What form should we use? And how do we prove (or do we even need to prove) whether he was intentionally writing falsehoods? My point is that even in the examples you've given, they are not concrete matters.
And again, I must protest. This is a man that's paid to follow our baseball team around and write about it. That's what he does.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 11:50 PM PST
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I don't understand this comment.
But it's been a long night -- as anybody who surveys this thread will agree.
I have no idea what makes somebody a good beat writer as opposed to a bad one. But: Whether "we" can prove he (or she) was intentionally writing falsehoods has no bearing on whether she (or he) was doing so.
Whether or not the person wrote the truth IS a "concrete matter", even if it cannot be detertmined whether the person wrote the truth or not.
Whether something is the case is one thing; whether it can be determined (known) to be the case is another.
Grasp this, and many of the manifold stupidities of so-called post-modernism will dissolve into ash before your eyes.
by el campysino on
Nov 6, 2007 12:23 AM PST
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Ah, I see our difficulties now
'tis best we agree to disagree, even though we seem to be in agreement in fact, and disagreed in theory. That's odd. Don't meet too many of you. Science person?
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 12:28 AM PST
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LOL...
Nimble mind, acidic wit, glib tongue....a fearful combination.
by alox on
Nov 6, 2007 8:41 PM PST
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True enough!
Unfortunately, anyone who uses the insipid acronym "LOL" without irony thereby undermines his or her claim to discernment regarding any of those traits.
by el campysino on
Nov 6, 2007 9:01 PM PST
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Or has a firm grasp
of rule no. 62
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 9:52 PM PST
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Sure -- but who has such a grasp?
Even nimble-minded, acidic-witted, glib-tongued people are more plentiful in my experience. And that even though all the people I can think of who were nimble-minded, acidic-witted, and glib-tonged are long dead.
by el campysino on
Nov 6, 2007 10:42 PM PST
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I know several people
that don't take themselves too damn seriously. I think there's even a few on this site. Given the choice, I'd rather not take myself too seriously than have others think of me as nimble-minded, acidic-witted and glib-tongued. Glory's fine, but peace of mind is a much more valuable commodity in my experience.
And those you know who are n-m, a-w, and g-t and dead--perhaps one of the reasons your opinion of them is static is because they are no longer around to prove you wrong.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 10:52 PM PST
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At least as far as I'm concerned . . .
First of all, I agree completely with this:
Given the choice, I'd rather not take myself too seriously than have others think of me as nimble-minded, acidic-witted and glib-tongued. Glory's fine, but peace of mind is a much more valuable commodity in my experience.
That is to say, I don't just agree with your self-description as someone who would rather not ... but agree, I would rather not either. I've always liked the line from "Harvey" that went something like:"You know, when I was a boy my mother used to tell me, 'Son, in this world you've got to be either oh so smart or oh so nice.' For years I was smart. I recommend nice."
At the same time ... at the same time ... and perhaps because of what I've admitted above ... I respect the genuinely n-m, a-w, and g-t (well, I have to admit, the admission of glibness was forced by a post from somebody else who apparently didn't know all that "glib" conveys). People like, well, Oscar Wilde, Karl Kraus, and Dorothy Parker a) had rare talents and b) paid mightily for having the talents they had. I remain an admirer of their (and others') talents, and their (and others') sacrifices, and I do object to the thoughtless laying of terms of praise.
And here is where we get to my question of "Who has such a grasp?" (Sorry if the transitions are jarring, but I can't write an essay here.)
Rule 62 is hard to grasp, I think, because it is very hard to distinguish between taking oneself seriously, and taking the things that one sees as important seriously.
That distinction is all-important -- especially once Rule 62 is invoked.
I realize that that is at most an invitation to further conversation.
Finally, when you wrote
And those you know who are n-m, a-w, and g-t and dead--perhaps one of the reasons your opinion of them is static is because they are no longer around to prove you wrong.
you wrote a sweet line. Trying to tie this post up, I'll just say that being dead, as far as posterity is concerned, is an uncertain benefit. The dead have the advantage of being unable to do things that would discourage their admirers. That advantage comes with the disadvantage of being unable to do anything to ward off their critics.
Here, I have to say, the advantage goes to the posthumous critics.
by el campysino on
Nov 6, 2007 11:55 PM PST
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Aside from
the oodles of post modernism I've consumed, one of the more interesting lectures I've ever attended revolved around the concept of postmortem image. It wasn't based on post modernism, visual culture and/or Pierce, but basically it was an aging Woolf scholar discussing the real-life events that happened after the death of Woolf; and I don't suppose it was really an analysis of it, more along the lines of simply presenting the facts. I think it speaks somewhat to what Delillo was trying to address in Mao II (though given your distaste for the post modern, I would imagine he is not high on your reading list)--the image of the person after the fact, and who owns it and how it is shaped and all that other happy bullshit that we prattled on and on about in grad school.
I completely agree with you that those who have remained steadfast in their adherence to being n-m and a-w are to be admired (I'm particularly fond of Ms. Parker). That path is not, in any way, the easier, softer way. However, the artist's path is rarely one of comfort, at least not the artists we tend to remember. One would assume that there is some sort of causal relationship between the plethora of both substance abuse and mental illness and artistic accomplishment.
As far as Rule 62 goes, I think you've parsed it correctly. It's important to not take yourself seriously while remaining committed to those things (and people, lest we forget it's about making connections with others) that are important. A key component to that, for me, is understanding that others have things that are important to them, and that it's not necessary for me to agree with them (or even understand them, though I normally find that genuinely fascinating: trying to empathically "map out" other peoples belief structures), but it is important to allow them that space, which sounds rather touchy-feely, but there's an amalgamation of my belief structures as well, I s'pose.
I'm tangential, and I apologize for not more clearly mapping my thoughts...Sebald talks about how his writing is like a dog in an empty field (the exact quote: "If you look at a dog following the advice of his nose," he said in a 2001 interview, "he traverses a patch of land in a completely unplottable manner. And he invariably finds what he is looking for." link). I like to think of myself as Sebald's dog. In fact, I may change my screen name now...
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 7, 2007 1:43 AM PST
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Just so you know,
the "lol" remark wasn't intended as an insult to you in any way, shape, or form. mikeA is frightfully brilliant for such a young man (we've met before). Unfortunately, his above mentioned attributes are packaged in a rather slight frame. Over the years it's been my experience that such a combination leads to a confluence of unfortunate events which often entail blood loss.
Apparently the irony was lost on you.
by alox on
Nov 7, 2007 7:00 PM PST
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I liked the interview!
The part about Harden being traded to the REDSOX was very interesting. I would be so tickled if we had Papelbon in our pen.
On the whole I enjoyed reading the interview. His remarks about Bonds may be a little off but I still enjoyed reading his POV. His remark about geren not being open interested me too.
Good job Blez. Please don't be discouraged if Urban gets some criticism. We have some good baseball minds on this site and their comments are appropriate IMO. If you are in the publice eye as Mr. Urban is you need to have a thick skin. Thanks for the interview and thanks to M.U. for granting it to you.
by IM4Oakgal on
Nov 5, 2007 11:25 PM PST
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Urban didn't say they were considering
trading Papelbon -- that wouldn't make sense in the context of the interview. What he said was that the Sux were interested in trading for Harden so that Harden could be the closer, while Papelbon would be moved into the starting rotation.
We know that the Sux originally planned to have Papelbon in the rotation for 2007, but couldn't find a suitable closer. Had they traded for Harden the A's would not have received closer. Urban doesn't mention who might have been traded to the A's.
by OaklandSi on
Nov 6, 2007 8:21 AM PST
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I should have said..
that I would have been so happy to have Papelbon. I understood that they meant very early on this last year before Harden's injury.
Anyway at least your comment was about the article instead of Urban lol.
by IM4Oakgal on
Nov 6, 2007 8:16 PM PST
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Why is this so complicated?
Disagreeing with an opinion is perfectly good: "The comparison of Crosby to Harden is ridiculous". It adds to the other readers' understanding of the issues.
"Mychal Urban is a hack" adds nothing to the conversation. What, do you expect that now that we've been enlightened regarding Urban's past foolishness, we'll project his foolishness into the future, and stop reading his work?
Blez is telling us a very simple principle- debating ideas is useful, and helps all readers learn more about the A's
I repeat, Debating a person is NOT an addition to the conversation. Finally, if your goal really is to warn us of a particularly useless writer, you can just say "I don't think his reporting is that good." Calling him a "hack" reeks of some strange pleasure in tearing others down.
Blez can't get good guest-interviewees (sp?) if we rip those interviewers down, so for our own sakes, stop making ad-hominem attacks that cause harm without adding anything to our discussions.
Attack the opinion, not the person- it's really not that complicated. We've all been told this since 3rd grade.
by ohmangoAs on
Nov 6, 2007 12:51 AM PST
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I like ther idea
of "interviewi" personally. But I've been called sick and twisted, both singularly and together.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 12:55 AM PST
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Or don't feel you have to attack
the person, or their work, just because you hear their name. Duh. Some members of our otherwise awesome community appear to have missed that day in third grade. Or missed K-8, since what you said is taught over and over and over and over...
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 8:07 AM PST
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Larry Davis?
by EastCoastA on
Nov 6, 2007 8:28 AM PST
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I like his shirts.
Very colorful.
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 8:37 AM PST
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I like his fitness regiment.
Very ironic.
by devo on
Nov 6, 2007 9:19 AM PST
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Watch out for the low Codornices tunnel
when trying to ride through it on your high horse. Did you skip the part of the interview when Blez talked about AN's reaction to Urban? Or Urban's print approach vis Bradley? Responses to those subjects aren't attacks just because I heard Urban's name. They're comments directly related to the content of the interview.
And somehow I missed the part where Blez asked us not to comment on that. But you seem to think it was loud and clear. The better to preach with, I suppose. You're a teacher, but it reads as though you wouldn't know attack if you sat on one.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 6, 2007 9:15 AM PST
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all right,
Blez:
"there's a big difference between attacking the statement or argument and attacking the person."
That's in the first 15 posts on this interview.
That's all I'm talking about.
The discussion of the Bradley article is fine- you're discussing a timely current event regarding the A's
But in this thread, have your comments calling him a hack really improved readers' understanding of any issues surrounding the A's organization? Like I said, your telling us that Urban is a hack doesn't really help anyone.
I can't figure out what the benefit of your comments is. Beyond whether we as members of a community should be allowed to make comments critical of a person, I think the better question is why calling Urban a hack is any form of insight.
Finally, I think its telling that the first line of your response to me is asking me to get off my high horse. Without debating the truth of whether I am on a high horse, I wonder if the fact that the focus of your response was an ad-hominem attack rather than a response to my ideas proves my point.
I hope you're not offeded by anything I've said, but this is a pretty fundamental discussion of how a blog should work, so I guess it needs to be done.
by ohmangoAs on
Nov 6, 2007 2:02 PM PST
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wow, good point
"You're a teacher" makes more sense now.
Well, that's fine. I probably went a little overboard in the response then.
I still hope that people have some thoughts on some of the questions I asked.
by ohmangoAs on
Nov 6, 2007 2:08 PM PST
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I didn't read the interview
But I read all the comments. Meta-thread ... sweet! :-)
My take: Blez can choose any type of criticism he wants to be off-limits and make it off-limits. That's his right. If bringing public figures in here and making them part of the community is really important to him, he can simply say, "criticizing this guy is off-limits," and then ban anybody who ignores him. Or give them a CGV, or whatever. I mean, he has a better chance of having his guests come back if he's successful in making sure they get a nice reception from us in the gallery.
I don't think he SHOULD do that however. I listen to a lot of KNBR, and Ralph & Tom in the afternoon are okay, but they get kind of compromised by the fact that they have all these guests. They have to stop ripping the 49ers momentarily, for instance, when it's time for the Tully Banta-Cain show. That's why I prefer Gary Radnich, who goes guest-free and talks with fans during his three hours. He's not beholden to anybody, and that comes across.
Anyway, I think what FSU and mikeA are making a stand for is the right to rip public figures, even those who might read this blog, or even visit and participate in it. I agree with them that this is a better blog the more freely we speak in it. And I also agree with them that allowing public figures to file CGVs; or allowing any blogger to file a CGV on a public figure's behalf; or banning or issuing warnings to anybody for ripping public figures--that all of that would hamper speech and entertainment on this blog to an unsettling degree.
If that does become policy, however, you all better believe that I'm going to rummage through the archives and file some CGVs on behalf of my buddy Ray Ratto. In that case, you're all going down, folks. My moment will have arrived.
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 1:06 AM PST
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So didja
enjoy my "blast from the past" above, then, Mr. Ratto-lover?
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 1:14 AM PST
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Your posts are
always excellent, and you proved to be a good guy when I met you in early October (hopefully you felt the same).... so maybe Ratto is actually good?
Eh, no.
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 1:20 AM PST
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Thanks mikeA
It was good to meet you too and you're definitely a fun read. I responded to you more above; but I'm going to log off momentarily because I'm supposed to be writing something about high school sports right now.
To Poldy Bloom--yes I did check out the Gamboa link. Glad you posted it.
Incidentally, I thought a lot about modern sports writing when I read the chapter where Poldy Bloom is in the bar with the Citizen, and they invoke all of these hyperbolic styles.
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 1:50 AM PST
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hopefully
you will not be accosted by an anti-semitic Irishman wearing an eye patch. Happens to me at least twice a week...
And I like you call him Poldy.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 6, 2007 2:05 AM PST
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Again for the 400th time
or maybe 40th? I'm not beholden to anyone. You can continue to throw around that accusation or listen to what I'm actually saying.
What I'm saying is that it's OK to say that Urban sucks because reason 1, 2 and 3. It's OK to say Beane sucks because he made move X, Y and Z. What it's not OK to do is to just say Urban sucks for no good reason.
There is a HUGE difference there and I don't really understand how come people don't get what I'm saying.
by Blez on
Nov 6, 2007 9:30 AM PST
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It's because you've said conflicting things
This post and others where you say it's OK to say someone sucks because reasons 1-2-3 is incompatible with your post above which said "in my opinion, saying someone "sucks" at their job is a personal attack."
The former is clear and understandable; the latter is unclear and cause for concerns which have been voiced pretty clearly in this thread.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 6, 2007 9:37 AM PST
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Are you just trying to be combative?
Saying someone sucks at their job is a personal attack. Saying someone sucks at their job for reasons A, B and C is OK.
How am I contradicting myself? Seems pretty simple to me.
by Blez on
Nov 6, 2007 9:42 AM PST
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Not at all
You can credit this or not, but I genuinely think the question of acceptable commentary about a media member who happens to be a (rare) commenter on AN is tricky and in need of clarity. Your post which I quoted simply doesn't include the "OK with reasons" caveats you added later. I understand what you're saying now, but you should also understand that a lot of folks, not just me, think there's cause for concern here, especially given some history of the blog deleting comments about Urban specifically, without explanation.
Barring further developments, I'll drop this now.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 6, 2007 10:05 AM PST
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FWIW...
and IIRC... e-i-e-i-o... the diary that was deleted (on The Day of the Infamous Tags) included some comments & tags that contained insults a bit more personal than "hack". I agree with what you've been saying about commenters' right to opine, based on our cache of prior data/examples, that Urban sucks at his job... but I also think it's not really so "out there" for Blez to remember how vitriolic it got, and start his original post by asking that comments/criticism be respectful and limited to the content of the interview.
And I apologize if I've lost too much track of the chronology in here. Continuity suffers in a pile of nested threads... :\
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 10:21 AM PST
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(Also, I don't think that diary should have been
deleted, whether I agreed with all the sentiments expressed or not. Just clarifying.)
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 10:25 AM PST
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EXACTLY, Poppy
There was precedent. That's the whole reason Blez felt the need to do a "please don't" intro. Thank you, Poppy, for getting it and for articulating it so well. For that, I forgive your promotion of feline cyclist-murderation.
by Nico on
Nov 6, 2007 11:10 AM PST
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Let's just say...
Urban is... not my favorite writer, either. But I've been seeing some things that I can agree with (and other things that I disagree with) on each side. I'm not trying to be either snarky or clever or marmy.
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 11:24 AM PST
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But it isn't
At least not as you've articulated it.
I'm semi-new here, and either haven't read or don't remember previous Urban-bashing threads. Additionally, my level of interest in the relative hackdom of an mlb.com beat writer is, well, not robust.
That said, Blez, I think you've been exceedingly unclear throughout the course of this thread (despite your exasperated assertions to the contrary). Maybe this stems from a basic inability to convey what you mean, maybe it reflects an internal inconsistency - I don't know.
First of all, if (as Nico says) your central point was
"Don't attack Urban" or even "Don't attack his work in general" but just "Could we reply to the content of the interview and not turn this into a meta-thread about the interviewee?"
you should have simply said that, rather than preface the interview with a vague, somewhat patronizing, schoolmarm-ish admonishment about "showing respect".
Second, you've migrated from (basically) "don't call someone a hack" to (basically) "call them a hack, but back it up".
You went from this:
And I'm sorry but in my opinion, saying someone "sucks" at their job is a personal attack because in this country so many people define who they are by what they do. That's just a fact of life.
...
I think it's fine to go after someone when you disagree with their points, but to say they suck at their job is ridiculous and just mean-spirited.
to this:
I have no problem with people saying Beane stinks at his job as long as they back up what they're saying.
That's a fairly direct contradiction, no?
1] It's okay to disagree with opinions.
2] It's not okay to say someone sucks at his/her job, because jobs define us.
3] It is okay to say someone sucks at his/her job, despite the fact that jobs define us, as long as you back up what you say.
Sorry, but that's not coherent. And I'm interested to know what the standard is for "backing up what you say", as it seems fraught with the potential for much arbitrary interpretation. Especially since both mikeA and FSU have cited several things to support their opinion that Urban "sucks at his job". Honestly, if I were to draw up a list of community members who consistently fail to underpin criticism with sufficient thoughtfulness or "backup", those two would be hemispheres removed from that ignominious compilation.
So: You're either pursuing some sort of bizarre semantic parsing which leads you to assert that it's acceptable to say "Person A is wrong about x, y, and z, misguided about e, f, and g, and said really stupid things about q, r, and s", but not acceptable to then conclude that Person A is incompetent. State your case, but stop prior to the conclusion.
Or: You're saying that mikeA, FSU, and others just haven't done the first part, rendering the conclusion "mean-spirited". Problem is, that's wrong. I think, frankly, that both have made fairly persuasive cases that Urban is a less than spectacular journalist. And even if they haven't persuaded you, to say their contentions lack backup is simply counterfactual.
Lastly, it seems crystal clear (as though through a freshly Windexed windshield) that you are more sensitive to criticism of Urban than most other public figures who are regularly mocked, sniped at, deconstructed, and lambasted on this site. In fact, I think if you were assiduous about policing said mocking, sniping, deconstructing, and lambasting, the site would get incredibly boring incredibly fast.
I think Bill Bavasi is a hack. I think Jason Kendall sucks at his job. I think announcers who rail against a team for failing to bunt a runner over in the third inning are, generally speaking, morons.
Are those personal attacks? Are they "ridiculous"? Would it be better if I said Jason Kendall sucks at his job because his OPS with the A's last year was .542? If so, I don't see how that's different than saying Mychal Urban sucks at his job because he wrote this and said that.
Egregious, know-it-when-you-see-it instances aside, I think the site is mostly self-policing. When someone says something dumb or outrageous or cruel, they're called on it. The community, writ large, is way too smart, engaged, and opinionated to let those sorts of things pass unchallenged. If you'd prefer a specific thread to stay on topic, or avoid a particular avenue of discussion, just say that. All-encompassing musings about "personal attacks" are (I think) confusing, unnecessary, probably incendiary, and inevitably inconsistent.
by 74mk on
Nov 6, 2007 12:16 PM PST
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wow
uhh, what s/he said. (Sorry, haven't met you, don't know your gender yet.) (Adds to list of pick-up lines for future on-line use.)
My favorite part: "And I'm interested to know what the standard is for "backing up what you say", as it seems fraught with the potential for much arbitrary interpretation."
Nice work, 74.
by rubin sierra on
Nov 6, 2007 12:46 PM PST
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Very well said.
Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of old subtext floating around in here.
by Poppy on
Nov 6, 2007 1:14 PM PST
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