Offseason Interview: Mychael Urban
Mychael Urban is the beat writer for oaklandathletics.com. He's always been a good community member and contributor here at Athletics Nation as well, so I've been surprised in the past at how some community members have openly lobbed personal attacks at him. Listen, you can always go after someone's opinions and dissect them accordingly (which I've done in the past with Urban after the Bradley column ran), but I will always demand that community members show other community members respect.
All that being said, Urban and I recently had a conversation about all things A's. This is our conversation. Enjoy.
Blez: Tell me, what do you think the A's biggest offseason need is? Many seem to think it's offense, but I actually think the team could use an extra starter more than anything given Harden's ongoing health issues.
Mychael Urban: The biggest offseason need? How about some sort of guarantee that Eric Chavez, Bobby Crosby, Kiko Calero, Justin Duchscherer, Mark Kotsay, Travis Buck, Huston Street and Rich Harden will stay off the DL for a full season? Get that and you're in serious business.
Obviously, such a guarantee isn't forthcoming, but that's what makes your question so difficult to answer. I'm convinced that a healthy 2007 A's team, with Mike Piazza OR Jack Cust at DH, would have had more than enough offense and pitching to win the AL West. And I think a 2008 lineup consisting entirely of guys already on board would be tough to beat if it were backed by a rotation of Harden, Dan Haren, Joe Banton, Chad Gaudin and Justin Duchscherer, and a bullpen anchored by Street, Alan Embree, Calero, Santiago Casilla and Jerry Blevins.
That said, I do think the A's need a legitimate right-handed power threat in the middle of their order, and I don't think they'll be able to find one via free agency. That's why I've been saying for a long time that I expect Billy Beane to pull the trigger on a big trade or two. There's also an obvious need for another viable option at shortstop and third base, if for no other reason than to light a fire under Chavez and Crosby, who haven't been truly challenged from within the organization during their careers. And with Duschcherer likely to be moved into the rotation, there's a need for another reliable reliever -- preferably one who throws hard.
As far as the rotation is concerned, I like what the A's have -- even if Harden doesn't hold up -- as long as Duke can make the transition back to starting, and I think he can. Haren and Blanton are a very good 1-2 punch, and I thought Gaudin simply wore down as the innings piled up; he spent last winter working out with a relief role in mind, and now that he'll be able to tailor his offseason workouts to a starter's workload, I expect him to be much better prepared for the grind of the second half next year. Duke would be a terrific No. 4 or No. 5, and if he has to be the No. 4 (because Harden is out), I have a feeling Dan Meyer is going to finally emerge as the guy the A's were hoping to get in the Tim Hudson deal and claim the No. 5 spot.
Blez: You are in contact with people inside the organization all the time. What's the true feeling about Rich Harden from A's insiders? Will he ever, EVER be a factor in green and gold?
Urban: Another tough one to answer. As a beat reporter, the person you speak to most often is the manager, and when Art Howe and Ken Macha were in Oakland, they'd usually give a straight answer about what the organization really thought about certain guys. Bob Geren is a cool guy and I like him a lot personally, but he's still very new to the skipper's role, and he rarely says anything about a player that doesn't seem like it's been sent through some sort of company filter. I'm not sure he trusts the people who cover the team just yet, and that's understandable. Frustrating, but understandable. You just can't get much out of Geren other than positive platitudes.
I speak fairly frequently with Billy Beane, who I know trusts me and is usually as honest with me as he can be, and he remains convinced that Harden will be a factor -- a dominant factor -- at some point. The question is, for whom? And here's where I can give you a little something your readers probably don't know:
When Jonathan Papelbon was still in the Red Sox rotation early this season, they were talking to the A's about trading for Harden and making him their closer. And not only did Rich know about it, but he also was starting to warm up to the idea before Boston put Papelbon back in the 'pen. And when the A's were working Rich back into the mix by using him out of the bullpen later in the year, it was something of an experiment to see if he might be better off in that role -- and Rich knew that, too. When he got hurt again, though, he soured on the idea of being a reliever, so now he's adamant about starting again. And the A's are going to give him at least one more chance to do it this year.
Blez: Many on AN have pretty much given up on Bobby Crosby ever being anything more than a guy who hits .230 or so and has an OBP under .300. Is it premature to draw that conclusion?
Urban: I think it is, but I'm a well-known "Crosby apologist." In fact, now that Jason Kendall is gone, Crosby is the guy I'll most get ripped for defending. I see him as a position-player equivalent to Harden, to an extent. Harden has the more mind-blowing talent, as evidenced by the brilliance we've seen from him when healthy, but I still think Crosby can be a very good player if he can stay on the field. He's never going to be a .300 hitter with that long, uppercut swing, but if he can stay off the DL for a couple of years and get the kind of playing time he needs to mature as a hitter and develop a little more patience, I could see him giving Oakland .275/25/85 out of the lower-middle of the order for many years. And he's an above-average defensive player when he's right, too.
But I totally understand the frustration of his detractors, and this is probably a make-or-break year for Crosby. He'll be 28 by the time spring training rolls around, his contract is up after 2009, and there's a reason the A's were talking to the Dodgers about a shortstop prospect when L.A. called about Blanton this summer.
Blez: Do you think the A's should go with Jack Cust as their DH or do you think the A's should pursue Barry Bonds?
Bonds: I can't say that I'm fully sold on Cust for the simple reason that he's only had one good year. He was a hell of a story, and maybe he is that classic late bloomer, but I'm still a little skeptical. If the A's were able to get that big right-handed stick I mentioned earlier (he's a corner outfielder in my little GM fantasy), I could see Barton as their DH and Swisher moved, once and for all and forever, to first base.
Bonds? Personally, I'd like to see what that circus feels like from the front row. And if you made me pick Cust or Bonds, I'd pick Bonds every time. But I just don't see it happening. There's the Mitchell investigation findings to consider, there's the exorbitant salary Bonds is probably going to want, and there's the looming perjury charges; the feds don't keep extending grand juries for show, and they almost ALWAYS get their man. It'd be great theater to see Bonds with the A's, but the potential for messiness is too great.
Blez: Who do you think has the most upside, Daric Barton or Travis Buck?
Urban: Great question. I've seen quite a bit more of Buck, but I've seen enough of Barton now to understand why everyone's been so high on him for so long, and I'd probably say they're about even in my mind as far as upside goes. Buck's recent injury history is a concern (whose isn't on this team?), but I think they're both going to be mainstays in Oakland for a long time. I think Barton will eventually hit for more power, but Buck is a more complete player at this point. If I had to give someone's upside an edge, I'd give it to Barton, but only because he's 22 and Buck is about to turn 24 (Nov. 16).
Blez: You took a lot of crap on AN two years ago for the column about Milton Bradley being a negative presence in the A's clubhouse. I imagine you must've wanted to get tee shirts printed up this past season when you were pretty much proven right that said, "Urban was right." Did you feel vindicated?
Urban: No, and I really mean that. It was frustrating to fall out of AN's good graces so quickly after a nice little run of favored-nation status, if only because I thought I'd built up enough respect as a reporter for fans to give me the benefit of the doubt on something like that, but I knew I'd take a little heat for what I wrote. I went after "their guy", they didn't like it, and in protecting "their guy," they went after me. I get it. The various theories I'd see on the site about my sources for the column were kind of funny, though. No, people, I didn't ghost-write it for Mark Kotsay.
What I would like people to know, and I'm sure the people who really follow my coverage already do, is that I don't make a habit of going after guys. In fact, that's the only time I can remember doing it, and I did it because it was indeed a major issue in the clubhouse at the time. Several players -- I'm talking about eight or nine guys -- provided information for the column, and here's some previously unreported proof that it was indeed a big problem within the team: A day or two after the column appeared, a high-level meeting was called. Bradley and his agent, on speakerphone, were in attendance. The message: Clean it up, Milton.
And he did. Until this year.
Trust me, if I really wanted to bury Bradley out of spite or something, I could have done it a bunch of times. I decided against reporting several incidents that would have made people realize that my column wasn't just a poison dart, and I made those decisions after asking myself the same question I ask when confronted with any difficult call, be it in my work or personal life: Who benefits?
I decided to write the column because I thought it could affect change in a positive way, and it did. I got slammed, but it benefited the team in the long run. Milton mellowed out and went on a tear.
I decided NOT to write about the other incidents because the only benefit would have been selfish, i.e. personal vindication.
Nothing about what happened with Milton this year made me feel good in any way. It actually saddened me a little. I had a chat with Milton about the column this spring, and I took more time to try to get to know and understand him a little better as the season progressed. I didn't really succeed, but there no disputing that he's a sensitive, smart, talented, complex, and tortured man. Very strong and frail at the same time. Fascinating, really. And while it didn't surprise me to see everything unravel the way it did, I took zero pleasure in it.
Blez: Bradley came out and essentially charged that the A's front office was racist. And yet we just recently read that Shannon Stewart is interested in coming back and that he loved his time in Oakland. Was this just the ramblings of a man hurt by the deal?
Urban: Definitely the result of injured pride. I wrote a column about this deal, too. It was written in response to another columnist's suggestion that Beane is racist, before Bradley popped off, but it still applies.
And here's some information I left out: The A's director of player personnel, Billy Owens, is black. So is the team's big-league strength coach, Clarence Cockrell. So is the manager at Double-A Midland, Todd Steverson. Bradley's claim was irresponsible and unfair. Bad for ball.
Blez: Billy Beane said that he didn't really know what his team was all about in 2008 yet. How do you view this team going into 2008? Contender for the AL West or should Beane just throw things out and start rebuilding?
Urban: I kind of answered this earlier. I think they can contend with the team they have coming back, with health being the caveat. But Billy isn't going to sit back and hope the team gets healthy. He's going to move, and he's going to move big. I'm almost sure of it, and I'm looking forward to covering it.
Blez: Do you think that the team is finally doing the right thing to correct the injury issues that have ballooned the last three seasons and if you were in Beane's position, what would you do?
Urban: I'm assuming you're talking about the reshuffled medical staff and the vow to monitor the players' winter workouts more closely. Is that the "right thing"? I have no idea. But it's a different thing, and that was an imperative step. Unfortunately, in this era of baseball the cause and frequency of injuries are very tricky to pin down, and every athlete has a different physiological and psychological makeup, with a different tolerance level for pain. Has it been bad luck, bad training, bad medicine or a combination of all of that? Nobody knows. What's important is that the A's are trying something new, and they having more dialogues about what they're doing. If I were Beane, I'd do what he's doing, and looking into doing more of it.
Blez: Do you think Eric Chavez will rebound now that he's had a couple of nagging injuries fixed? Will we see the 30 homer, 100 RBI guy of seasons past?
Urban: Well, we don't really know yet if everything's been fixed, and we won't until this spring. There was a lot of hope in his voice when he explained that one injury probably led to another, and so on and so on, and he won't know if those theories are correct until he gives his body some serious baseball pounding.
But yeah, if he's healthy, 30 and 100. And a Gold Glove. That's who he is.
Blez: Does Chris Denorfia steal a lot of ABs from Mark Kotsay next season?
Urban: I've never seen Denorfia play, but based on what I've heard, you might be onto something. Here we go with the health thing again, though. Denorfia didn't play at all last year, and Kotsay didn't play very much, so who knows? But if they're both healthy and productive, I think Kotsay, who is entering the final year of his contract, would be a prime candidate for a trade before the deadline
Blez: If you were to build a lineup right now with the current group of players, what would it be?
Urban:
- Buck, LF
- Barton, 1B
- Swisher, RF
- Chavez, 3B
- Cust, DH
- Mark Ellis, 2B
- Kotsay, CF
- Crosby, SS
- Kurt Suzuki, C
Note: I'd like to see Suzuki and Rob Bowen compete for the catching job this spring. If Bowen won, I'd plug him into the No. 6 spot and move everyone else down.
Blez: Finally, I know the A's used to be big-time Halo fans. Who is the best Halo 3 player? Street, right?
Urban: Street will say Street, Harden will say Harden, Haren will say Haren. Beyond that, I have no clue. I'm old-school. I'm still trying to get past the damn conveyor-belt-in-hell level of Donkey Kong.
Blez: Thanks so much for your time, Mychael.
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Urban rocks
Blez,
thank you for sharing the conversation. Mychael Urban is always an interesting read for me (even when I disagree with his take). He has real insights to share and he seems to do so in a responsible, well thought-out manner.
Note to Mychael Urban: I am a 46-year old A's fan who has followed the team since 1968. In my opinion, your coverage of this team ranks at or near the top alongside Dave Newhouse. Rob Neyer, Monty Poole, and Susan Slusser are also talented reporters who write about the A's, but your work seems to offer that extra bit of insight above and beyond reporting what we all can see on the field. Thank you
by conniemack on Nov 5, 2007 10:34 AM PST 0 recs
Mom always said if you don't have anything nice
to say, don't say anything at all.
<crickets>
<crickets>
<crickets>
by theblackpearl on Nov 5, 2007 10:38 AM PST 0 recs
Interesting that Urban didn't tell all
He alluded to various things he could have said about MB, other events of note.
Is he taking the high road, or is it unfair of him to hint at bad things without giving the subject of rumors a chance to defend themselves?
He11, you could even consider it blackmail - I know these embarrassing things about you, and might just tell somebody unless....
I have long suspected that Susan Slusser's leak of Swisher's drinking habits was planted (or at least cleared) by upper management. A way to send a message to Nick.
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 1:00 PM PST
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Not sure that I understand the logic
Between assesments of Crosby and Cust.
Urban says that he believes in Crosby and cites as evidence that he has not had the experience and exposure to translate his physical talents into results.
Then he says that he does not believe in Cust, because Cust has only had one good year.
Crosby has had, in my estimation, 1.5 good seasons. The first was his season in AAA, and the second the half season of 2005 that he played in Oakland and OPS-ed .802. But Crosby is not untested at all. He has 1600 major league at bats and a .700 OPS. He is a proven commodity. And that commodity sucks. His "one good season" came in AAA.
Jack Cust, on the other hand, mashed the ball for nearly a full season last year. And his performance was predicted by his strong minor league numbers. Year in and out, he shows he can hit. I think this is a proven commodity also. A high strike out, low athletic ability solid hitter.
I cannot help but think that the fact that Crosby looks like a hell of an athlete and Cust looks like the guy who delivers my pizza has more to do with it than actual research. But fine, its just nit picking. Michael states himself that he is a Crosby appologist.
Anyway, nice to have you back Michael. And thanks for the Harden insight. Thats good knowledge and good of you to share.
by mikedaviswhereareyou on Nov 5, 2007 10:38 AM PST 0 recs
Different standards ...
he's basically saying that if Croz gets healthy, he thinks it's realistic to expect him to bounce back to his 2005 level of production. Which would make him an asset at shortstop, though far from being a star.
When discussing Cust, he was comparing him to Barry Bonds. I'm a believer in Cust and I'm extremely skeptical that Cust can put up those kind of numbers in 2008 ... because they are far better than what he did in 2007.
I don't think Urban, by any stretch, thinks that Crosby is likely to be more productive with the bat than Cust in 2008. He's just (and not without reason) judging them by very different standards.
by devo on
Nov 5, 2007 11:23 AM PST
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As an attack-lobber
let me say that I enjoyed this interview. Some odd opinions, but good info. Excellent read.
by mikeA on Nov 5, 2007 10:42 AM PST 0 recs
I wonder about this
He's going to move, and he's going to move big.
Mychael has said this on more than one occasion, but for some reason I'm not so sure
by ArakSOT on Nov 5, 2007 10:43 AM PST 0 recs
Billy wants to, but I don't see anyone of any
value, other than Haren, and Blanton, and maybe Swish. There is nothing else BIG to be done, I could see quantity, but the quality isn't really there.
by theblackpearl on
Nov 5, 2007 10:48 AM PST
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Huston Street is valuable.
And it would be a really good idea to move him, too. His elbow tendons are like guitar strings, and his motion is Slayer.
by jeepers on
Nov 5, 2007 5:08 PM PST
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He's going to sign Tom Hanks?
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 11:12 AM PST
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Our best hope for Harden
is to abandon medicine and have him take a shot with that carnival thingie.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:14 AM PST
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Britney Spears?
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 11:47 AM PST
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it really is good
to have you back.
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:09 PM PST
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who the hell put Tom Hanks in this thing?
Tom Hanks couldn't act his way out of a nut sack!
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:08 PM PST
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Is that the most efficient way of getting
out of a nut sack?
Though obviously the bigger question is why he's there in the first place.
by OldhamA on
Nov 5, 2007 3:55 PM PST
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I think what Urban means...
is us trading for a Sexson-type player using Lenny/Braden/DJ level players and prospects. Surely, in that competitive situation it would make no sense to move Ellis, Swisher, Haren, Street, Harden, Blanton, Buck, Suzuki, or Barton. At least that was my interpretation since as mentioned above we have an established core that injury free would make us competitive.
by AsWin on
Nov 5, 2007 1:55 PM PST
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Good interview, but
what do we do if Joe Morgan opens an AN account? What about Rev. Halofan, who already has one? Does that exempt them from charges that their flat-earth views are surpassed only by the shallow brainpans in their flat-heads?
Public figures have to take the attacks that come from their positions, justified or not, IMO. And an AN user account shouldn't change that.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Nov 5, 2007 11:50 AM PST 0 recs
Attacks NO
Criticism YES.
And if somebody is so thin skinned to take criticism as an attack, that's their problem.
(Oh, and FSU, we've all decided to talk to you - you need to brush your teeth better. Ugh, halitosis. Just a little friendly advice.)
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 12:29 PM PST
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Yeah
there's a big difference between attacking the statement or argument and attacking the person.
I think we need to strive to avoid the latter as I'll do the former on occasion (both Susan Slusser and Urban can tell you I've done as much).
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 12:31 PM PST
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Oh and the chances of Joe Morgan
opening an account here is on par with the earth would opening up and swallowing all of humanity, then burping us into the far reaches of space.
by Blez on
Nov 5, 2007 12:32 PM PST
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Uh oh.
by Poppy on
Nov 5, 2007 12:35 PM PST
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"I'll do the former on occasion"
< intentionally misreads statement and following parenthetic, starts rumor >
by monkeyball on
Nov 5, 2007 1:03 PM PST
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definitely
and it seems that attacks included, Urban took it pretty well - he clearly understood the reasoning behind the attacks and seems ok with the situation. I really enjoyed reading his thoughts about the Bradley situation and gained a lot of respect for him from it. He could have pounded his chest and said "see", but he didn't, he ran in the opposite direction with it. All things considered, to have apathy for Bradley and to have tried to get to know him better shows a lot about Urban.
by Eric in Atlanta on
Nov 5, 2007 2:19 PM PST
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Empathy. :)
by Poppy on
Nov 5, 2007 2:37 PM PST
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eh
empathy, apathy..who cares?
by Leopold Bloom on
Nov 5, 2007 3:11 PM PST
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I feel you
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 3:18 PM PST
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Did you ask permission?
by oblique on
Nov 5, 2007 5:59 PM PST
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LOL
by Poppy on
Nov 5, 2007 3:28 PM PST
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I know exactly what you mean.
by oblique on
Nov 5, 2007 5:59 PM PST
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I respectfully disagree.
If you simply mean the act of registering is enough, then yes, a user name shouldn't protect you.
Anyone who has a user name and contributes to this site, however, deserves the same level of respect afforded to all of its members.
by jeepers on
Nov 5, 2007 5:10 PM PST
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I unsurprisingly disagree
with your disagreement. Let me pose this fr'instance:
Jeff Pearlman (late of SI, now of ESPN) is often derided as a cheap shot artist, famously for his SI piece on John Rocker. His ESPN pieces span the range from vapid to inflammatory simply to inflame, the online print equivalent of bad talk radio. He's a hack, and a dangerous hack besides, since he's just smart enough to get people in trouble simply to advance his own career. He is not (presumably) an AN member or contributor.
I feel the same about Urban. His journalistic skills are weak, his opinions either predictable, or a tool of management or a clubhouse faction to make a point, or simply inflammatory for the sake of attention. He's a hack...he makes bad guesses and calls them analysis. I think his voice in his talk radio gig is much closer to his actual self than is the slick guy being interviewed above. I find him annoying at best and a dangerous weasel with a press pass at worst. That is my opinion of his professional skills, which by any reasonable construction should be fair game on this website. People have said the same (and much worse) about Carl Steward and Ray Ratto, to choose local examples. Does Urban get a free pass about on-topic journalism critiques just because he posts (rarely) and lets Blez interview him? I would hope not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 7:22 PM PST
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+27
I think a good distinction might be: people who are paid to cover/manage/play for the A's should be open to criticism on this site, whereas fans (pretty much all of us) should be protected by different rules of decorum. Media coverage of the A's is a pretty fundamental subject of this blog. It so happens that Slusser and (formerly) Suchon were excellent reporters, and that Urban is a hack. Can I not say that on an A's blog? If I can't, can I not say that Vince C. is bad at his job? Can I then not criticize any players who might read this site, or contribute like Duke? If Billy traded Haren for Reggie Willits, could I not call him a moron?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 7:41 PM PST
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-27
mikeA, it's not a matter of who is protected (players/reporters vs. fans), it's a matter of what common courtesies should be extended to ALL.
IMO, EVERYONE, from fans to players to GMs to reporters, should be fair game to have their opinions and skills criticized.
IMO, NO ONE, from fans to players to GMs to reporters, should be personally attacked or insulted.
Notice I said IMO. Your statement, "It so happens that Slusser and (formerly) Suchon were excellent reporters, and that Urban is a hack" states an opinion as if it were fact. I don't think Urban is a hack at all. That's my opinion. If you don't care for his work, that's fine. But IMO, for anyone to come onto a thread where someone is interviewed and to say, "Hey, your work sucks" is - whether or not it's a violation of any community guidelines - just incredibly immature. IMO.
by Nico on
Nov 5, 2007 7:56 PM PST
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"Your work sucks"
That's a critique on someone's professional product. If modified by "by the standards of quality journalism" then it's perhaps a more grown-up critique; if modified by "donkey dicks" then its probably more juvenile. But what it is NOT is an attack...it's a criticism of professional product, in the case of an A's reporter directly on-topic, and whether you agree or disagree with the comment it is legitimate criticism, though in some cases cringe-worthy.
And that's my problem with your response below. People often call criticism which is harsh and direct "a personal attack." But it isn't an attack, even if it's immature, so long as the critique is directed at work product and not, say, family or appearance. And from one who has repeatedly criticized Larry Davis for being fat (among other non-personal attacks), your outrage rings hollow.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:04 PM PST
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Hey, FSU, I would like to know if you're right.
So, please, provide evidence of the weakness of Urban's journalistic skills, the predictability of his opinions, his susceptibility to the influence of management or clubhouse faction.
I would like to know if you're right here.
So please present the evidence. It can't be hard to find if you're right.
I am very sickened by the constant devolving of threads or mini-threads into "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!"
Just present your reasons. Please.
Signed, an atypical reader
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 8:13 PM PST
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Sorry campy, you'll have to do your own homework
as mikeA notes, AN has had hundreds of posts on this. There's the Bradley piece of course (and subsequent events don't retroactively make bad anonymously sourced journalism good...Slusser said she wouldn't have written such a piece). There's all the odd baseball opinions in the interview here. There's the bi-annual July and November predictions that "Billy's gonna make a big move soon." There's the book Aces, which besides being flat-out bad writing, made for an awfully compromised beat writer, given that he was depending on three players liking him enough to source his book while ostensibly reporting objectively on those players every day. That raises the other objectivity question, given that Urban is in fact employed by MLB and its partner clubs. There have been multiple credible speculations that Urban has run stories planted anonymously by Kotsay, Zito, and "management," which serve the interests of those parties and not those of the readers. There's the KNBR talk gigs in which he said the Giants should throw at Buck, and the others when he said Hank Aaron wouldn't watch Bonds break the record because Hank was jealous.
That's from a few minutes off the top of my head. Try the search function.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:30 PM PST
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Oh, and try examiner.com
His archive of columns speaks for itself...he's just not a good writer. In my opinion, as he tries to be a straight reporter on the A's, a columnist for the Ex, and a talk radio personality for KNBR, he fails at each and would be better served (in quality terms) by picking one and sticking with it. I understand that's perhaps not as lucrative, but there's a name for writers who crank out copy to make bucks as opposed to writing good stuff. They're called hacks.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 8:36 PM PST
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Simple point.
I'm aware he's not a good writer. When I look for good writing, I don't look to anybody's sports page. Let's face it; as far as sports writers [or at least baseball writers] are concerned, the best is, what, Roger Angell? Anybody think Roger Angell is one of the ten best writers of the twentieth century? Okay, the ten best in English in the twentieth century? Keep whittling down -- keep whittling ...
I'm also aware that there have been many comments on AN condemning Urban. I'll just say that they vary wildly in the extent to which they attempt to ground their criticisms in facts. I know how to use a search function, too, and I know that it generally turns up sh#t.
Nobody's writing speaks for itself. That is the problem. In the meantime, it is cheap and lazy to say that this person is lousy, incompetent, uninformed, demonic, etc. without presenting evidence ... and then, when evidence is demanded, to point in a condescending way to other places where the person in question is described as lousy, incompetent, uninformed . . .
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 9:27 PM PST
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If you're a "reporter"
and your writing doesn't speak for itself, well, I suppose that might explain branching out into radio.
I don't see the condescension, sorry. Though I do sympathize with the failings of the search function.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 9:40 PM PST
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Show me an instance
of a writer whose writing speaks for itself, and explain to me, please, how the writing does this.
Apparently you don't see the condescension in saying
That's from a few minutes off the top of my head. Try the search function.
-- but of course you do. You wrote it, and the condescension drips.
Please, please, don't make the next most predictable play ... "I was being ironic" ...
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:08 PM PST
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That *was* from a few minutes off the
top of my head, and I do recommend the search function if you genuinely wish to acquaint yourself with the rich history of Urban's writing and AN's reaction thereto. I was being neither ironic nor condescending.
But since I actually believe my writing does speak for itself, and you feel that's not possible, I can see how you'd infer the worst. (now that's condescension!)
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 10:14 PM PST
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I'm acquainted.
And familiar.
And bored.
You didn't bother to explain how writing can speak for itself; you merely asserted that it does, at least in your case.
I find it interesting that the predicate you ascribe to yourself is "believe" whereas the predicate you ascribe to me is "feel".
Inferring the worst? Condescending? Try again. When I accused you of such things as condescension I presented your own, overtly condescending, statement. You seem to think random italicization of words in your own statements suffices. In that you are wrong.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:41 PM PST
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care to dispute my "evidence"
that you requested some way down the thread?
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 10:45 PM PST
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Dispute, or consider.
Always willing to. Just tell me: Do you mean the post you titled "I don't have the energy to ..." or something further down?
You know that it's tough to know what texts people are referring to in this messy, evolving blog business.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 10:53 PM PST
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"don't have the energy to" is the one
curious to see if you can mount some reasonable baseball arguments against it. I suspect not.
Also: FSU's writing speaks for itself, and far surpasses what anyone else has done on this site.
by mikeA on
Nov 5, 2007 11:20 PM PST
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Thanks for responding.
I'm still waiting to have someone explain how anyone's writing can speak for itself. Shakespeare's, Homer's, Dave Barry's, I don't give a crap. Explain, please, how writing can speak without an interpreter.
Now, on to your challenge, MikeA.
Regarding the initial quotation from Urban -- well, I found that very bizarre. Just to descend to standard blog-talk, mind-blowing WTF-ness. Then I stopped to ask myself why.
I came up with:
Harden has proven that he has fantastic ability at his position, when healthy, which he almost never is. Crosby has proven, at most, that he at most might have above-mediocre ability at his position, when healthy (which he all-too-often is!).
I agree with you that it is an extremely silly comparison. Well, you called it an analogy that was beyond absurd. Can we split the difference here? Even if not, I wouldn't see the mere reference to this as proof of Urban's, as you might put it, full-of-shit-ness.
As far as Urban's assessment of Cust in comparison to your assessment stands, I have to admit, I see a standoff. Urban says there's only one MAJOR LEAGUE season there, and he's not happy to predict Cust's future on that basis.
I'm sorry, MikeA, but what you wrote from that point on was simply unintelligible. At least to me, and I'm guessing to other people also, since people generally respond to your posts but there were no substantive responses.
I will say this:
You made it MY responsibility to verify YOUR claim that Urban is, as you would put it in your broad way, "full of shit."
You failed to provide the evidence.
And the nature of your claim was such as to devalue any potential evidence, for or against.
Big. Fat. Broad. Claims.
"Sucks." "Full of shit." Etc.
Enjoy living in your world.
by el campysino on
Nov 5, 2007 11:58 PM PST
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As for writing speaking for itself
I just meant that FSU is by far the best writer we have here. That is an opinion, but a widely shared opinion. I didn't mean it in a literal sense, just in a "FSU's writing is awesome" sense.
As for Urban: I had hoped to make it clear that this interview alone does not condemn him to stupidity. But if you had read AN for the past two years, or read the mailbag in that time period, the conclusion is inescapable. I didn't feel like going through all of that. I will admit that I failed to provide conclusive evidence that Urban is full of shit, but rest assured that evidence exists. (And I agree that it's my burden of proof, not yours).
by mikeA on
Nov 6, 2007 12:22 AM PST
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No man but a blockhead ever wrote ...
... except for money.
by monkeyball on
Nov 6, 2007 10:01 AM PST
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Well, given the impoverished lot of so many
great writers, all I can say is thank goodness for blockheads. <laces shoes, lines up to kick football>
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 6, 2007 10:13 AM PST
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Calling a journalist a hack is a strong assertion
A very strong statement "He's a hack." may be true, but because of it's harshness requires strong evidence.
Just flatly stating it is tantamount to an attack. If you instead begin with a list of his journalistic failing, unbalanced by any redeeming qualities, you can lead the reader to the conclusion much better than straight name calling.
Here is a start.
"Why would Michael Urban go through so much trouble to tout the fact he could have said bad things about Bradley. Does he think that casting aspersion about a player in a vague and hard to refute manner, that he is being a gentleman? No. It shows he is putting a lacy frill on the dagger he uses to backstab a player with. "
by MobiusKlein on
Nov 5, 2007 9:28 PM PST
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Elegantly stated
But here's the thing: eloquence can't be a working definition of unfair attack versus legit critique either. It's either OK to criticize the reporters and the job they do, or it isn't. I suppose we'll find out. Or not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Nov 5, 2007 10:02 PM PST
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So my post and FSU's post add up to zero
I'm glad to see you grappling with statistical concepts. Was FSU's post + my post average or replacement level? I kid.
Nico: What if Blez gave a Bobby Crosby interview? I would imagine that you wouldn't criticize him on that thread, but would you stop afterwards?
What if Blez interviewed Larry Davis, and he proceeded to take part in the AN community? (As FSU mentioned), would you stop the fat jokes? Would you stop claiming that he's completely incompetent and living in the '70s? Urban's hackery is as obvious to me (really,


