Various A's Minutaie
1. Why is it impossible for Brad Halsey to be the Player to Be Named Later in the Chris Denorfia/Marcus McBeth trade?
2. When the A's needed a roster space earlier this year, why was Adam Melhuse, rather than Bobby Kielty, sent down to AAA, even though Kielty was mostly immobile and hitting poorly at the time?
3. Why did the A's shift Bobby Kielty from the 15-day DL to the 60-day DL, even though his calf strain won't keep him out that long?
Answers below.

#1 Why Halsey will never be a PTBNL:
A Player to Be Named Later (PTBNL) cannot be a player who has played in the same league as the player he's being traded for. That's why PTBNLs are often minor leaguers. In other words, if the A's make a trade to an NL team, and include a PTBNL in the deal, the PTBNL can't be a player who's played in the majors for a National League team.
Halsey can't be the PTBNL in the Snelling deal, or the Denorfia deal, because he played for the Diamondbacks, Yankees, and A's.
For that matter, with MLB service time in both leagues, Halsey can never be a PTBNL in any deal. If he's ever dealt, it'll have to be announced the day of the deal, not later.
#2 Adam Melhuse - Counting the Days:
A Player with five years of Major League Service Time can refuse to be sent down to the minor leagues without his written consent. If he refuses, the team is forced to open him up to waivers. Therefore, you'll almost never see a guy with more than five years of service get sent down to the minors - no matter how poorly a guy is playing, of course he doesn't want to be there.
This MLB rule has had a dramatic impact on the lives of Adam Melhuse and Bobby Kielty the past two years.
Last year, Bobby Kielty was sent down for a while and was none too happy about it. This year, it was Melhuse's turn. Why?
Kielty entered this season with 5 years, 46 days of Major League Service (5.046). He can refuse to ever spend another day in the minors if he so chooses. He gained that right late last season, when he hit five years.
Melhuse entered this year with 4.123 years of MLB service, a mere 49 days shy of being able to refuse a minor league assignment. He was sent down briefly in April, but in a few weeks he too will hit that magical five year mark.
This rule also explains why the Padres released Todd Walker this spring, rather than send him down to AAA until a spot potentially opened up. He could refuse such an assignment, in hopes of playing for someone else, which of course worked out for him with the A's.
It also explains why Witasick (9 years) will never be sent down, even if he endures a very rough stretch like last year. He has SOME value just for the sheer fact that he's a healthy below-average reliever. The A's wouldn't DFA him and lose him to someone else, because that would squander whatever value he did have.*
#3 60-Day Disabled List - "The New Triple A" for Underperforming Veterans
Bobby Kielty's calf strain won't keep him out 60 days. He was shifted from the 15-day DL to the 60 in order to clear a 40-man roster spot for Hiram Bocachica, who is swinging well, healthy, and plays CF - three things Kielty isn't.
This is yet another example of the A's managing their 40-man roster very well; sure, they have some very unfortunate injuries, but those injuries have allowed them to protect more players (44) on their 40-man roster than any other franchise. That has value when you consider that the A's evaluate fringe players better than anyone. The more fringe players they can acquire and hold on to, the better. This was a partial reason for the Denorfia/McBeth trade: It freed up an extra 40-man roster slot, since Denorfia's on the 60-day DL all year. That slot eventually became Chris Snelling.
Back to Kielty: What that 60 days allows the A's to do is give Kielty a de facto demotion without him ever having to accept it. A position player on the DL is allowed 20 days in the minor leagues for a rehab assignment. In Kielty's case, the A's can wait until he is fully healthy (a few weeks?), and then still have 20 days left over for him to go to Sacramento, get in a groove playing every day, and return to the big club in a groove - ready to contribute the first day back, rather than struggling to find a rhythm.
This doesn't happen as easily when a player is on the 15-day DL; he's using a 40-man roster slot, so there's more urgency to get his productivity back once he is near healthy. The 15-day DL also probably encourages both sides - player and the organization - to rush the rehab process, rather than benefit from getting back in the groove of seeing live pitching every day. When the 15 days are up, the player's inclination is to immediately want to be back with the team, and of course the team wants him back as well. But if Kielty rushed back and returned healthy from the 15-day DL to the tune of his early-season performance (.476 OPS) as he worked out the kinks, who has he helped?
Better to let him get back into form in AAA. The disabled list, especially the 60-day version, affords the team that luxury.
Every player goes through hot and cold spells. There is a lot of value in acquiring/yanking players up to the big leagues right when they get hot (Dan Johnson, Jack Cust). Through the power of the 60-day DL, the A's have the luxury of waiting for Kielty to get hot in AAA without wasting a roster spot on him until then. It's smart of them to use that flexibility.
Finally, back to point #2 very briefly...
From an organizational standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to have the majority of your players on the 40-man roster with 0-5 years of service time. If we think of them as assets, they have more liquidity than veterans with 5 years and beyond, as the Kielty example shows.
Hypothetically, if a team had 40 players in its organization, all somewhere between fringe and average, and all of them had between 0 and less-than-5 years of service, the team would have more than just an incredibly cheap roster:
They could shuttle some struggling players and hot players between AAA and the big leagues at will, essentially shielding themselves from horrible slumps. Examples: Putnam's not hitting, and Cust is crushing the ball in AAA? Acquire Cust, and send down Putnam. Buck starts to struggle, after starting the season strong? Send him back down eventually, until he gets hot (and healthy) again, without burning his service time in between.
The liquidity of a roster full of 0-5 year players allows a team to essentially ride the hottest hands all year long, without burning the service time of a struggling player (like the Royals are doing with Alex Gordon).
That's the direction the A's are increasingly moving in - Cust, Denorfia, Snelling, Putnam, Buck, Braden, keeping Halsey down, the avoidance of Durazo, sending DJ down when he struggled in '06 - all these low service-time guys on the roster can be sent down if they struggle, and brought back up when they are hot again.
That's the way the roster will always be constructed, and not just because those players are cheap. The A's can't have too many players that can't be sent down and still have great roster flexibility. The team needs that liquidity the A's currently have and continue to pursue.
0 recs |
51 comments
Comments
great diary
i suppose this might also allow the A's to take higher risk players, be they injury prone, come back types, or guys with bad reps. it might mitigate some of the disadvantages of a middling payroll.
by rebus on
May 17, 2007 4:02 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
all that liquidity is irrelevant ...
... if most of the roster comprises brittle solids.
by monkeyball on
May 17, 2007 4:17 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
how was the bm this morning?
by ak_A on
May 17, 2007 8:32 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think I strained something
... but I'm looking for a second opinion. You game?
by monkeyball on
May 17, 2007 8:36 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Very Well Written, Concise ..
Thank you nsj, I learned a lot from your diary. One thing to add to that is, with the money you do have, sign long-term the guys who are most likely to be healthy and productive: Haren, Swisher, Blanton, and maybe Gaudin. For future free agent acquisitions, the A's need to look for healthier players IMHO - we gave up a promising prospect in Ethier to get Bradley - Milton is a great talent, only, he can't play two days without tweaking something and he doesn't heal quickly. Ditto with Loaiza, we paid pretty good money to get the poor man's equivalent of Clemens in the sense that he doesn't give us any productive service before June or later; etc .. the A's are going to have to do something about team health and longevity or they'll never contend .. they can't stay on the field long enough! :(
by Randy Bell on
May 17, 2007 6:14 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Very educational
Glad I stopped browsing porn to learn something on the internet today. Thanks!
by sprtsnwyn on
May 17, 2007 7:02 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
(puts eye drops in and adusts belt)
by ak_A on
May 17, 2007 8:33 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
stops "photographing the MB bobblehead"
by monkeyball on
May 17, 2007 8:35 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
stops "quoting" the dead Milton Bradley
by mikeA on
May 17, 2007 8:41 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Great diary
I would pay for this kind of content.
by mikeA on
May 17, 2007 8:39 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Be careful what you wish for...
by salb918 on
May 18, 2007 1:05 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
never knew that about PTBNLs
recommended.
by xbhaskarx on
May 17, 2007 8:44 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
me neither
but I still don't understand what the point of the rule is
by ArakSOT on
May 18, 2007 8:30 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
One reason for the rule, and it's a funny story:
One time a player was traded for a Player To Be Named Later, and he ended up being the PTBNL.
One of our baseball historians/elder statesmen will know more about this than I do, but Harry Chiti was a journeyman backup catcher from 1950-1962. His career (.238 average with 41 hrs) was nothing memorable, but his fame/infamy stems from being the only player in history traded for himself.
On April 25, 1962, Chiti was purchased by the expansion New York Mets from the Cleveland Indians for a player to be named later. That "player to be named later" ended up being Harry Chiti, arranged to be sent back to the Indians on June 15, 1962.
So in other words, the rule I described above may be in place partially for players and teams to save face - so that Chiti players aren't traded for themselves ever again.
Harry Chiti couldn't be the PTNBL in his own trade by modern rules - he had already played in the AL with the Indians, so clearly he couldn't be returned to the Indians.
There's gotta be a better reason than that one, but it might be an example why the rule exists. The Chiti example is just embarrassing for both the player and the team and no one needs that indignity.
by notsellingjeans on
May 18, 2007 2:01 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
when I first read this diary
I remembered something along those lines, so I googled "traded for himself". I found Harry, but also found this wiki entry for Rob Ducey (no TNBL in his case):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Ducey
Seems like an odd reason - saving face - for a rule, tho
by ArakSOT on
May 18, 2007 2:10 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
levity aside...great diary
I will now wait for my chance to drop that info with my more casual fan friends and impress them. I'll need a pipe to tap while I expound though.
by ak_A on
May 17, 2007 8:49 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
So unlike our former Prez
you admit, then, that in matters of pipes you do expound.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
May 17, 2007 9:00 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
(more visine in eyes, sprays self with lysol)
by ak_A on
May 17, 2007 9:08 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I knew that
not
very nice posting! Thank you.
by since72 on
May 17, 2007 9:27 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Thanks guys
On a far different tangent: In hindsight, I'm increasingly glad my Blanton-for-Milledge hopes in the offseason (http://www.athleticsnation.com/user/notsellingjeans) didn't play out.
Lastings' off-field hobbies are again creating friction with the Mets:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...
While he clearly doesn't warrant a bounty of Blanton (maybe Halsey and Loaiza instead?), there's never been a better time to buy low on Milledge.
Players with their own record labels are sure to become the new undervalued commodity.
by notsellingjeans on
May 17, 2007 10:07 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Well if we're buying low, why not sell high?
Blanton for Pelfrey, Heilman, and Milledge!
And then we can trade Harden, Windsor, Cust and DJ for Dukes, Upton, and Gomes!
Absolutely fantasy lineup:
MB RF
Swish 1b
Chavvy 3b
Upton 2b
Dukes Cf
Gomes DH
Croz SS
Milledge LF
? (Closser?) C
Then we could dump all are high salaries for prospects.
by vignette17 on
May 17, 2007 10:31 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
you couldn't buy any higher on upton
and as far as gomes is concerned, there's a difference between buying low and buying something that is probably useless.
by xbhaskarx on
May 17, 2007 10:37 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Even though my thoughts were complete fantasy,
Two more thoughts:
You can say trading for Upton is buying high but you can also say you are trading for one of the best offensive 2b in the league at the last time he could be available, not that I actually think he is.
As for Gomes, you really wouldn't want a 26 year old who really has only OPSed under 750 in limited sample sizes? Plus he's from the Bay Area.
by vignette17 on
May 17, 2007 11:24 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
A different view of the "controversy"
from Gotham Baseball.
So, unless a 20-game winner like Oswalt becomes available in July, you can pretty much bet that Milledge will stay put.
by rfloh on
May 17, 2007 10:40 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Keep in mind
That's a Mets site so you can only assume they are as biased towards NY as we are to our (see I can spell it right) A's.
by vignette17 on
May 17, 2007 11:27 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
So, what did the site say that is
The fact is that despite all the constant wild wishcasting from fans of different teams, Minaya has shown no inclination to trade Milledge, unless for an elite pitcher.
by rfloh on
May 18, 2007 7:20 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
and that's why milledge is still a met
by xbhaskarx on
May 18, 2007 12:19 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Why would the Mets make that trade?
How will Halsey and Loaiza help them?
by rfloh on
May 17, 2007 11:21 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I love
the hilarious trade ideas bandied about on AN.
Of course, I would have also laughed about "how about we pay cash for some scrub CF who can't hit, and then we trade that scrub for Snelling, straight up."
But anyway, the Mets would never do that. Maybe we could trade Beane for Minaya, trade Blanton and Chavez for Pelfrey, Heilman, Milledge, and Wright, and then trade Minaya back.
by stinkycheese on
May 18, 2007 7:32 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I for one am SHOCKED
That Lastings would have a rap song featuring terms typically found in rap songs. I think the Mets are blowing this entirely out of proportion--it's not like he's singing that Shawn Green sucks (which he does, obviously) or "David Wright is killing my fantasy team." Are they offended about a black man using the n-word?
by stinkycheese on
May 18, 2007 7:28 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I really, Really
HATE that term. The N-word...lol, give me a fuckin break... What fuckin year is this? 1959? Ok, let me set the record straight. If a song that sells 1000,000,000,000 units says the word Nigga, Its not a word that needs to be called "the N word" Nigga, fuck get used to it. We don't call Dude "the D word"....
by Shippee33 on
May 18, 2007 4:40 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Don Imus
by rfloh on
May 18, 2007 10:31 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
'Cause they were hoping Lastings...
...would earn some extra money for the team by hosting a nationally syndicated radio talk show?
by GreenNGoldSooner on
May 19, 2007 3:54 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Very informative, nsj, thanks :)
by Poppy on
May 18, 2007 6:56 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm only suggesting acquire Milledge
If the Mets seem even somewhat willing to sell low. Minaya's comments indicate that he is continually irritated with Milledge, for various reasons. That may indicate a willingness to part ways with him. The flip side to that is, Minaya is a very good GM, and a very smart man, and he's not going to get swindled.
When Moneyball first came out, I had this Michael Lewis-inspired, quasi-nonfictional idea that Omar Minaya was a clueless GM who had never heard of Kevin Youkilis, the highest OBP guy in all of minor league baseball.
But the Good Book certainly contains some embellishments and Minaya's suggested incompetence is surely one of them. I let it incorrectly bias my opinion of him.
by notsellingjeans on
May 18, 2007 7:46 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Minaya has made his share of mistakes
My main nitpick wasn't that Minaya won't trade Milledge, rather that if he is going to trade Milledge, he would want something back that can help the Mets. An injured Loaiza isn't going to help. And while Halsey is useful, the Mets have pitchers like him: Jorge Sosa, for example. Also, Milledge has been the subject of trade rumours for the last 2 years. If the Mets were seriously shopping him, there are 28 teams other than the A's the Mets.
Aside from that, nice article.
by rfloh on
May 18, 2007 10:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Interesting
I never knew the restriction about PTBNL eligibility.
Great diary!
by JLeverenz on
May 18, 2007 10:25 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I think there's something I'm not getting.
Snelling was the guy we got from the Nationals, right?
And prior to that he was with the Mariners.
So didn't he get traded back to a rival team in his former division?
Is it because he was never called up from the minors? What am I missing here?
by popcornjames on
May 18, 2007 11:49 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
he wasn't a PTBNL
by rebus on
May 18, 2007 11:53 AM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
same with recently traded two buck chuck
by xbhaskarx on
May 18, 2007 12:21 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
fast forward october 2008
" and with that towering home run to center field,his 6th of the series, former A's cast-away and now sensation Charles Thomas, should seal the deal for WS MVP"
by ak_A on
May 18, 2007 1:58 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
aaah, thank you.
I knew I wasn't processing something correctly.
by popcornjames on
May 18, 2007 2:11 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
you learn something every day
this is great!
by OaklandSi on
May 18, 2007 11:04 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Others like it, too.
This diary included in THT links.
by salb918 on
May 18, 2007 11:57 AM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Just terrible
I just noticed "minutaie," which apparently is a new word that means something similar to minutiae.
Nothing more pretentious than throwing out the SAT word and misspelling it. Even better when it's in bold font as a diary title that can't be edited.
Future diaries will be titled "Ignorance Is Bliss," and "I'm Not Dum, Really," or something similar.
by notsellingjeans on
May 18, 2007 1:46 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
i assumed a "minotaie" was ...
... a mythical beast akin to a unicorn, but a lot smaller. Maybe that follows Scutaro around.
by monkeyball on
May 18, 2007 2:12 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
NSJ
Thank you for the technical answer to the Halsey question, but an easier one would have been: Halsey will not be the PTBNL in the Cincy deal because Beane isn't that stupid. Halsey and McBeth for an OFer that won't be ready to play in 2008?
No.
by grover on
May 18, 2007 5:21 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
well, when people were suggesting halsey
may be one of the two PTBNLs, nobody thought mcbeth (or anyone of that caliber) would be the other one.
by xbhaskarx on
May 18, 2007 5:24 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Very true
I only posted it because I was remembering that many at AN were initially speculating that he was involved in the Denorfia deal before McBeth was announced.
And also, for us to use as a reference for future deals:
Assuming we make another PTBNL deal for a big leaguer again sometime, we know that, example, if the deal is with an NL team, Dan Meyer isn't the PTBNL. If the deal is with an AL team trading us a big leaguer for a PTBNL, we know it's not any guy in our system who's played at the big league level, including Colby Lewis, who isn't even currently on the 40-man roster.
by notsellingjeans on
May 18, 2007 6:05 PM PDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
To anyone reading this in the archives
You need to read this follow-up post, in which NSJ explains why one of the points made in this post is not correct.
by iglew on
May 20, 2007 7:43 PM PDT
reply
actions
0 recs
















