Reality Check: A Harden Fast Rule

by Nico on Apr 27, 2007 7:10 AM PDT in News Comment 138 comments

No, this post is not about hunger strikes, or even about balls and strikes. It is about Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor is that the simplest explanation tends to be the best one. Ironically, Occam's Razor does not apply to its own name, as the simplest explanation for why something is called a "razor" is that it has something to do with shaving, and yet Occam was really not known for his facial hair nor for any innovations in twin blade technology. Neither linguists nor Scientists nor hair stylists have been able to explain why we do not refer to "Occam's Rule," "Occam's Law," or "Occam's Principle," but we don't. Now what was I talking about? Right, Rich Harden.

Harden will miss two starts with soreness in his right shoulder, which is not connected--well obviously it's connected--to his right elbow injury, or his previous left shoulder injuries brought on by collisions with baserunners and alarm clocks. As far as we know at this exact moment, the right shoulder soreness still may not be all that serious and Harden may even start in the next week. The MRI did not show any of the worrisome red flags, such as decapitation or rigor mortis, so really this may just be a "scare" for fans and nothing more than the ordinary bout with soreness that crops up occasionally with many basically healthy pitchers. In other words, just because we have been conditioned to panic about Harden does not mean that panic is warranted this time--two weeks, in the scheme of things, is nothing.

Enter Occam and his pesky razor. We know that in order to protect his elbow, Harden has abandoned his breaking pitches to where he is only throwing fastballs and changeups, with a few splitters sprinkled in. After not throwing for most of last season, and coming back with a more limited repertoire, his shoulder has balked after only three starts. Harden is running out of pitches to subtract, he is running out of body parts to protect, and yet his body still appears unable to handle what it takes to pitch to major league hitters. And no matter how you slice it, no matter how the A's frame it, this is just not good.

All of which is to say that Billy Beane is looking very wise to have hung onto Joe Blanton, who may be better than I thought he would be and who, like Chad Gaudin, is looking pretty indispensable right about now.

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Oh Boy, Here We Go, Talk About Controversy ..

Just a few points:

I was wrong to think Rich would not miss his last start. Anybody who wants to make me eat more crow, please email me! :)
It is encouraging that the MRI came up 'clean' i.e. no obvious structural or tissue damage.
I may be wrong again by saying this but I do not think this team will make the playoffs if Harden goes down permanently.

The fact our offense has been MIA reinforces the last point, namely we need dominant pitching to overcome a weak offense. Also the obvious comparison, our SoCal rivals have dominant pitching and they are going to get healthy eventually - when they get Chone Figgins and Juan Rivera back, their offense will improve and they'll be very tough to beat. I see the A's losing the division if Rich goes down. ;-(

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 7:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

although I don's see us winning the division even if all of our pitching is healthy with our offense. Even when our offense is healthy I just don't think we can score enough runs.

Go A's!!!! www.GamingDomination.com

by 3Chavy3 on Apr 27, 2007 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

FYI, just because the A's said the MRI came up

"clean" doesn't make it so. They have a history of obfuscating the players medical diagnoses.

by Bacon on Apr 27, 2007 7:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Word.

Remember 4/26/06 against Texas? Rich left the game due to back spasms. HAHAHA!!

[dies]

It was actually an oblique injury where his muscle tore off the bone. It was deemed too scary for anyone to know about.

"Of all the things he does well, that's like second-to-last on the list, just above deer hunting." Jeff, LL

by Jennifer on Apr 27, 2007 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember nothing.

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

is that you, Alberto?

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

you can call me Al

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha !

None of this Bertie-come-lately crap ... surely that's Ronald's voice I hear from the grave.

by green star oakland on Apr 27, 2007 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why on Earth does he keep trying to barehand ...

.. hard smashes up the middle? Rich has a bad enough health history as is {he is in danger of becoming permanently Prior/Wooded} - it's almost like he tries to get himself hurt? If he does return to the rotation can someone kindly take him aside and tell him that's why we have Ellis, BoCro, Chavy, et al out there? Let them play defense, Rich, and keep your little paws to yourself! It was his trying to barehand a ball in the Texas game last yr that caused the oblique injury, if I recall correctly.

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because pitchers are fielders

You need to practice a particular reaction until it becomes second nature.

Which pitchers practice a half hour of baseballs being blasted through the pitching box? If they did, they'd learn to (a) catch the catchable (b) leave the slow ones for infielders (c) omit throwing hand from the path of balls traveling more than 10mph.

I doubt there is any such practice for pitchers.

"- J. Duchscherer relieved J. Duchscherer" per Yahoo! Sports Box Score

by One won lost won on Apr 27, 2007 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There isn't.

There really isn't time for such things, as pitchers don't usually throw BP, for obvious reasons.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No time??!!

Baseball is unique in that you can have ONE GUY playing, and 24 teammates simply watching, a high percentage of the game.

Especially the Bullpen. They could find time, and I don't mean pitching BP. Just call it "fielding practice".

"- J. Duchscherer relieved J. Duchscherer" per Yahoo! Sports Box Score

by One won lost won on Apr 27, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Detroit pitchers could have used a lil more PFP

.. before last year's W.S., eh? .. ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why this doesn't work:

1) You have to have someone hitting the ball at the pitcher. That requires a mound, a plate and a cage.

2) When balls are being hit at the pitcher, they tend to take one or two off the scone, and that leads to injuries.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mmmmm.

For some reason I can't stop thinking about pulled pork BBQ.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you're ever in Sacramento,

go to the Barbary Coast on 20th between L and Capitol, because they have heavenly carolina-style vinegar sauce BBQ.

"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching."- former A's pitcher Satchel Paige

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Apr 27, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

really?

Excellent. NC-style is the only way to go. I'll have to check that out when I finally get myself up to Raley for a game.

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yum yum

One of the perks of living here, as you know.

I read Raley, and thought Raleigh. I thought, "He used to live around here*...surely he knows how to spell Raleigh..."

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 27, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

you have me confused with "Raleigh Monkey"

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

at my therapy group

we call that minimizing. "Yeah, I dented the pickup truck driving home from the bar, so what.?" Well, no, you totaled the pickup.

Viva le AN...Liberte, Egalite, and Disabilite

by ak_A on Apr 27, 2007 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

La la la la,

I can't hear you ;)

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Apr 27, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah the A's have the worst medical staff in the

league

Go A's!!!! www.GamingDomination.com

by 3Chavy3 on Apr 27, 2007 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How dare you say such a thing

about Stumpy, Cyclops and Hook?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget Sawbones.

And Scabby.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scabby!

I knew I was forgetting someone.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sho nuff.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

and once again, they didn't say it was clean

they said it showed nothing major.

It's seems odd to pin all our hopes on just one player. For all of his talent Harden -- even if healthy -- cannot by himself guarantee getting to the playoffs.

It would be really depressing as a fan to pin all my hopes on any one player, and particularly one who hasn't shown that he is durable enough physically.

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rich cannot guarantee our winning but ..

.. his absence may very well tip the scales toward our losing ..

Let's assume the A's offense roughly equals the Angels offense {which right now is dubious but we are hoping the A's offense comes around}. Compare these rotations:

(Angels): Lackey, Colon, Santana, Weaver, Escobar
(Athletics): Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Braden, Kennedy

For Braden you might substitute Halsey {unlikely}; E-Lo {we are waiting and hoping}; or "pitcher to be named later". Braden was pitching AA just a week ago. He will likely get hit hard once the league has seen him a few times.

The pre-season pundits picked the Angels for a reason, namely their pitching. I am with you, as A's fans we don't concede anything, but the odds don't look good without Rich in the rotation.

Don't want to pile on to that, but we don't have an offensive superstar like Vlad in our lineup, either. BBG is right to point out our offense if the problem right now, not the pitching.

However, again, assuming over a long season that the A's offense will roughly equal the Angels offense, then the pitching will likely determine the difference. The current run we are on with starting pitching, while exciting and encouraging, isn't going to last forever. Losing Rich may very well do in our season, and I hate to admit that. ;-(

It would be really depressing as a fan to pin all my hopes on any one player, and particularly one who hasn't shown that he is durable enough physically.

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget to factor

in our superiour defense.

by Bleeding the Green and Gold on Apr 27, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The REALLY ironic part of this...

...is that it's not Rich we're missing. His replacements have done their job.

It's the unbelievable crappy offense that is currently doing us in.

Now we have 6 or 7 months to enjoy, to cheer, cry, and scream both in frustration and happiness. ~china bob

by baseballgirl on Apr 27, 2007 8:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

absolutely

I have no problemwith the starting pitching, the defense, or even the bullpen. But you need at least enough offense to score more runs than the other team.

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Offense and also Current Lineup ..

The A's can't always have the 'A' team on the field but they need to figure out a way to at least put a 'B' or 'C' out there during this part of the season - last few games they have had a 'Z' {desperation lineup that has looked like it would have trouble scoring against the RiverCats or Midland much less MLB}. The strange tendencies of the A's to be absolutely ravaged by injuries around this {early} time of the season, is probably why in recent years they play severely sub .500 ball in May. Meanwhile our aarp brethren across the Bay are healthy, having just swept the Dodgers and won eight games in a row. The fact that the Geriatric Giants are healthy and we are seemingly 'sick' right now, does that strike anyone as strangely pathetic? That's not a knock on our beloved team but why on Earth cannot we avoid falling into the same deep injury chasm so early every season? It takes long-suffering to be an A's fanatic. ;-(

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A's health vs Giants

Age:health isn't a simple correlative relationship. Much older than median players, such as the Giants have, mitigate (somewhat) against the general trend of older:hurter. That is, the players who manage to stick around MLB through their late 30s tend to be players who have the ability to stay (relatively) healthy despite their senescence.

And simply because a team has a younger roster -- if those younger players are gathered on the cheap because of their fragility and have their health managed poorly -- doesn't mean it will necessarily be healthier.

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's all about selection

The Giants have deliberately gone for durable players. Last year's ace, Jason Schmidt, is a better pitcher than this year's ace in terms of stuff, but he can't play a full season without significant time in the shop. So they let him walk and spent their grocery money on this Zito character who never misses a start.

I assume they've learned about the value of reliability from watching the A's misfortunes year after year.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well keep in mind that Bonds right now

has an OPS of greater than 1200.

Also their pitchers, like Matt Morris have performed better than expected.

If Bonds goes down, or teams start IBBing him once they realise that he's back in MVP form, they're going to struggle to score runs.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Apr 27, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

and they've won 8 straight games

obviously it's still early in the season.

I watched the Dodgers-Giants game last night. It was very interesting to watch how the Giants managed to come from behind and hit enough -- and in enough sequences -- to grab the lead. Also the much maligned Benitez now has 6 saves, including 3 in 3 consecutive days.

(Yes, the Dodgers made some bonehead plays as well.)

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very sage, OaklandSi

Yes, scoring more runs than the other team will usually bring about victory!

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tell that to the Yankees who ..

.. have just lost six in a row! ..
!!!!! Need some pitching also !!!

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously

the Yankees did not score more runs than their opponents. This is why they lost.

And no one seems to be picking up on this classic Garfield reference that I'm using.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL yeh I'm dense

Off-Topic but let me compliment you for your knowledge of the minor league system. I'm really impressed by the sophistication and knowledge of the fans who post here, it makes me feel like a permanent newbie but, oh well ..

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

thank you

Now I almost feel bad for admonishing you a little lower in the thread.

Well... not really. :)

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, there's no such thing as "classic Garfield"

(unless you're talking about James Abram)

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Apr 27, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

By classic I meant old

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As in pre-1990...

Before Jon became so stupid it wasn't...funny.

Before Garfield walked on two legs, turning from a cat into a short man in a cat suit.

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 27, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Garfield was on all fours

Can't remember for sure though.

Just remember the joke.

1st Panel:
"I love food. I REALLY love food. In fact, if I couldn't eat food I think I'd die."

2nd Panel:
No text, Garfield just standing there looking eyes wide, straight ahead.

3rd Panel:
Garfield grimacing (paw over face???)
"Real sage Garfield!"

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember exactly what you're talking about...

...or at least close to it.

Garfield was lying on his back after his usual gorging (next to his food dish). No movement.

First panel: "I love food."

Second panel: "If it weren't for food, I'd just die."

Third panel: "Sage, Garfield, sage."

I wish the garfield.com comics vault was searchable. :P

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 27, 2007 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

of course it's obvious

yet sometimes people tend to forget that.

I think that the A's "A team" this year even if healthy is not anything close to an offensive force; they should theoretically be good enough to provide enough runs to win most games. But if enough of them underperform, or are injured, you have a situation where even very good pitching and defense won't be enough.

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you

I just thought it was funny the way you phrased it originally.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I know

I was feeling a little bit "Captain Obvious"-ish

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

grover is merciless! ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not true

Its just I haven't shown you any mercy. There's a difference.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If rich was in, Gaudin would be in pen

If we got Gaudin's good pitching in relief, then we may have won a few of the Blown Save games.

It's not just how well the replacement does, but the ripple effects all the way down the depth chart.

For example, Kotsay is no Vlad on Offense, but losing him has meant that we have two rookies playing the outfield. Rookies who aren't as good offensively or defensively. (As in last afternoon, Putnam should have held onto one or more of the balls)

by MobiusKlein on Apr 27, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is probably true...

even though gaudin is pitching the best, the pen needs more help than the starting rotation...he is a beast and will do whatever is asked and dominate it. i called him being good last year...just relentless. loaiza on the other hand...

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Apr 27, 2007 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

better Occam's razor than Jobe's

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 9:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Better a Segway than a Razor.

This beats this.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is Harden Tradeable?

It seems that there's no way we can dump him with his track record. It would probably be wise to, but I don't think any team will take him.

by Gromit1025 on Apr 27, 2007 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe the Cardinals

They like to repair damaged pitchers, and they have one of ours already.

Straight-up trade, Harden for Mulder - would you go for it?

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a good trade for us,

But how can we market someone with an eggshell arm? We get him healthy, really really promise he's fixed, but will anyone believe us?

by Gromit1025 on Apr 27, 2007 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No.

But they'll take a shot because he has Cy Young upside.

My guess is, in the next week, we'll either see him back or traded.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess the only chance we'd have,

is a team willing to take a risk, ala the Frank Thomas deal last year.

by Gromit1025 on Apr 27, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All the more reason to trade Harden

First, get him back healthy. Then showcase him. Every game he pitches from here on out has a duel purpose: A)Help Oakland win the ballgame. B)Drive up his value for another team. Then, when said team is willing to pay a fair price, deal him.

Let me put this plainly before anyone tries to blast me.

Rich Harden is great IF he's healthy. Trade him for a good player or players. Anyone get hurt, but there are a lot of players who are less prone to missing time than Rich Harden.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if a bottom rung team would be willing

to take him?

The Devil Ray's or the Royals.

Sure he's broke, but you don't have much better.

by Gromit1025 on Apr 27, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you do that you better make sure ..

.. you don't trade Harden for a Superstar Rent-a-Playa who'll be gone the next year ..

.. I called into Robert Buan show last year and asked the same question. He asked me "Why would you do that?" He said, Rich is locked up by the A's for several years at a relatively inexpensive price. Buan said: trading Harden for a Carlos Lee {last year} who would be gone at the end of the year, makes no sense ..

Buan was right, and I felt foolish for making the call, but like the rest of you, I was feeling frustrated with Rich's continued long absences from the rotation. The insanely inflated F.A. market for pitchers in the off-season only further enhanced Buan's argument. ;-(

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Listen perma-newb

I have no intention of proposing a trade that involves sending Rich Harden anywhere for a rent-a-player.

I'm more creative than that.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh. Perma-newb.

Grover, you are now Perma-God.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction

I've always been Perma-God, its just taken you this long to see the light.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Grover, you are now officially...

...on notice.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Apr 27, 2007 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL i pre-empted you by calling myself that first

Interviewer: "You Lack Experience"
Seeking Employment: "But if you, or someone else, don't hire me, how can I get experience?"

BBG, Grover, and other Tough AN Vets: "You're a newbie, take time to get to know the Site before jumping to conclusions."
Lil Ol Me: "if I don't post, relate, interact with other ANers, how will I ever get to know the Site?"

Hehe .. LOLOL .. my revenge is to irritate everyone with my relentless newbiness until you all give up and acccept me !! ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've suspected as much

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL this is really a tough crowd

.. but I will eventually win your heart ;-) {i hope}

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shit out of luck.

We're all as heartless as Chavvy.

by green star oakland on Apr 27, 2007 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That May be True

.. and my moonlighting, - alas those good grades in Cynicism 101, Jadedness 204, Skepticism 401, Sarcasm 303, and Pessimism 102 will have been attained in vain .. if AN could just get a standard hazing ritual in place, it would save guys like me a lot of time and effort .. j/k j/k .. I will just keep my eyes peeled and get even with the next newcomer .. someone newer than me .. I won't be a rookie forever! ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think if you

just became a little more familar with this site, and some of its "teachings" you'd do fine: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/

A kitten bats around a ball of yarn but what he's really saying is, "You know I can't knit, motherf'er." That is one foul mouthed kitten. - Mitch Hedberg (RIP)

by RayRay59 on Apr 27, 2007 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks Ray ..

I've obviously been joking but honestly am surprised to find so many knowledgeable A's fans - my sig probably best describes how I feel about the A's. Another thing, given our "smallness" market-wise in the baseball world, the sheer volume / activity of this Site is impressive ..

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just be glad this isn't "Scrubs"...

...or someone might start calling you girls' names.

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 27, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like 'Kendall'

or "Kennedy"

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Apr 27, 2007 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with this

I'd like to see 5 dominant starts and then a trade. He's basically our only guy that both has significant trade value and that we can afford to get rid of.

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

sign me up for this plan, too

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

should I start coming up with possible new homes

for Mr. Harden?

And how much would it cost for him to get ther?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only reason to make this trade

would be to send a message to the other players on the club...

Remember a stupid trade from five years ago... Jeremy Giambi for John Mabry, and then Mr. Beane didn't even want Mabry to play...

Well, if Mr. Beane were to trade Mr. Harden, it would send a message to the rest of the club that YOU BETTER NOT GET HURT, OR YOUR ASS IS OUT THE DOOR!

We could take things back to the golden age of baseball when everybody was so afraid of losing their roster spot that they'd pitch with a broken arm, let alone an oblique strain, or heaven forbid, a hangnail...

I think that maybe Mr. Harden needs to stop lifting weights and doing modern conditioning. Maybe if he puts on fifty pounds he can be the second coming of Mickey Lolich or David Wells.

Speaking of which... I love Boomer! If we make a stupid trade, can it be to the Padres for Boomer?

Okay... parody/rant over. Let's hope Mr. Harden gets healthy and gives us at least 20 more starts this year...

"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching."- former A's pitcher Satchel Paige

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Apr 27, 2007 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Devil Rays

The D-Rays need pitching bad and that outfield is starting to get a little crowded.

by methodrampage on Apr 27, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tampa looks good at 1st glance

but think about it, if you've got 2-3 of the top OF prospects in baseball (or at least, the most coveted maybe?) and you decide that you're going to trade one of them, don't you think you'd set your sights on a pitcher of similiar talent to Harden but less of a health risk?

Yes, the Devil Rays need pitching. But can they really count on Harden to give them that? They can't afford to miss if they move one of their OF guys. Harden is not someone you can build around, he's simply too fragile.

I think think the more likely suitors are going to be teams that already have some pitching depth but want to roll the dice and try to acquire an Ace. That way if Harden goes down, they're not screwed. And if he stays healthy... they're playoff bound.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Yankees

.. they are rich, and they need pitching .. I'm not suggesting we trade Rich, just thought it strange that no one mentioned the Yanks - or, do you not think the Yankees have anything to offer us in return? {Grover, be nice} ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harden + Chavez + Street + Kendall

... for A-Rod + Posada

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now there is a deal I could be a fan of.....

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Apr 27, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boy, me too.

Too bad we didn't pick up A-rod in the off-season, when New York hated him.

Now we have 6 or 7 months to enjoy, to cheer, cry, and scream both in frustration and happiness. ~china bob

by baseballgirl on Apr 27, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about this one

Harden for Giambi, straight-up.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where do I sign?

Now we have 6 or 7 months to enjoy, to cheer, cry, and scream both in frustration and happiness. ~china bob

by baseballgirl on Apr 27, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, that's too easy

How about Haren for Giambi? That's bound to cause some anguish.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That one's tougher...

Now we have 6 or 7 months to enjoy, to cheer, cry, and scream both in frustration and happiness. ~china bob

by baseballgirl on Apr 27, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harden, sure; Haren, NFW

I'd guess that Haren's the single most valuable member of the roster right now.

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's the trouble with trades

You've got to give something to get something. I still think my offer of Kendall for A-Rod is the best deal for both teams.

But the reality is that Matsui is probably the best we could get from the Yankees for anybody other than Haren, and that's a short-term fix.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would the A's want to do that?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because....

...A-rod alone is hitting four-times the A's offense? :-)

Now we have 6 or 7 months to enjoy, to cheer, cry, and scream both in frustration and happiness. ~china bob

by baseballgirl on Apr 27, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But that won't last

A-Rod will return to mortal status eventually. Then he becomes a FA after the season and will walk out the door.

Why are we trading our 3B, our closer and a SP of Hardens talent (no need to tell me why we trade Kendall, but you'll have to tell me how we get around his total NTC) for two players who'll leave after the season?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think monkeyball's subversive streak wants

to unload Chavez's contract.

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine

I've no problem with that.

But who's going to play 3B next year? If we're going to trade Chavez could we at least get someone who'll be around in a year?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

wasn't endorsing the idea...

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't think you were

I'm just hoping someone will share the key piece of information that I seem to be missing.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

see OaktownPower's response

Wouldn't bother doing it without agreeing to an extension/non-opt-out.

I actually think A-Rod would entertain the thought of playing in Oakland -- low/no media pressure, famously welcoming clubhouse, perpetual contention, excellent pitching staff ... and for Wolffisher, a huge draw for the idiot--casual-fans-with-too-much-money who form the supposed core of the new Fremont ST/condo base.

Posada and Kendall is essentially swapping the final years of not-so-great contracts, with Posada ... what, doubling Kendall's offense?

Harden, even if we get him back on the field and he runs off 5-7 healthy starts, isn't gonna garner anything on his own. Street I find to be more valuable as a bargaining chip (while acknowledging the important fact that he's cheap right now), and I'd prefer to move him than sign him to an arby-avoiding extension.

No, Kendall probably wouldn't OK the deal -- nor, in all likelihood, would A-Rod ... or Wolff.

But a monkey can dream, can't he?

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A-Rod in the Bay Area

would be great revenge on the Giants for taking Zito, and put lots of butts in seats. But I'd have to stop going to games because I don't like Yankee/casual fans.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

think the Giants would take on

his contract?

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't think they can afford him

after spending the rent money on Zito.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone who would deal for A Rod

would have to workout out the contract opt out before a deal is made.

But A Rod would veto a trade to Oakland faster than humanly possible...so of course it would never happen. 0% chance he accepts a deal here.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Apr 27, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Others will probably disagree with me

but I don't see the Yankees as being a good fit for a Harden deal.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Cards, maybe...

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking Boston

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Move him to the pen

If he can stay healthy out there, consider starting him in the second half. But at this point he has to prove that he can pitch some innings without breaking, and frankly, we don't need him in the starting rotation.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 10:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

We do need help in the pen.

by Gromit1025 on Apr 27, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Billy Beane

This man lives on pitching. But doesnt he realize that the A's need hitting? I'm tired of watching this garbage offense everynight. I want some really hitters in the lineup, not the Sacremento Rivercats. I know there have been alot of injuries, but even with our healthy lineup, they still couldn't score. Billy please make a move for some bats, this is getting ridiculous.

by chavyizdamn3 on Apr 27, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade Harden

A rotation of Haren, Gaudin, Loaiza, Blanton, and Braden/Kennedy will still be better then 26 other teams in baseball.

We need offense and we need to start cutting down on injury prone players. If we don't trade Harden soon no one will want him.

I also think we should trade Kotsay and sign Bradley long term. We only need one injury prone outfielder, and we might as well keep the one with more power.

by Threepwood XX on Apr 27, 2007 1:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey, I know,

lets trade for Chris Denorfia.

by mikeA on Apr 27, 2007 3:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he's healthy!

<oops.>

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Apr 27, 2007 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nico:great Harden:toast

Nico is my favorite writer..witty, funny and poignant.

Harden is my favorite pitcher...hard throwing, cagey and untouchable.

HOWEVER, Harden is toast. If we get rid of him and he gets healthy...well, that is a chance I am willing to take. Trade? Who in the hell would trade for Harden? Would you trade for Kerry Wood or Mark Prior? No. It's not like he is just hurt...he is ALWAYS hurt.

I think the best solution is to put him in the bullpen. He has a one to two inning arm.

He would make a dominant closer.

"If someone wants to think I'm just a big, dumb knucklehead, I can't help that" Nick Swisher

by since72 on Apr 27, 2007 3:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Gracias, señor72

:-}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 27, 2007 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nico is my favorite

Velvet Underground female lead singer. She ain't no Lou Reed, but who is?

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Might be old...but just read he's still feeling p

in the shoulder as of yesterday. They have to figure this shit out....Another MRI? More x rays? A second opinion with Andrews or Jobe? They have to be able to figure it out.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Apr 27, 2007 3:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

still feeling pain.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Apr 27, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

after long toss?

not good

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

crimony....

harden experiment over...in my book.

Viva le AN...Liberte, Egalite, and Disabilite

by ak_A on Apr 27, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd heard or read yesterday

that Harden and Loaiza played catch yesterday at the coliseum before the game....that's all. Nothing like pitching, and certainly nothing on or near a mound.

I haven't seen or heard anything about Harden feeling pain after that, but if he did...

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he did...

It would be time to take him to the vet to be put down.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

on Marty Lurie's pregame show today

Mychael Urban confirmed that Harden threw yesterday and is sore today.

Several articles confirmed that Harden just played catch yesterday.

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2007 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i guess the next phase

in rehab, is if he is sore after playing patty-cake with Elo.

Viva le AN...Liberte, Egalite, and Disabilite

by ak_A on Apr 28, 2007 5:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How long until he's traded?

by A'sfansince1970 on Apr 27, 2007 4:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Denorfia

Sweet we just trade for a guy who's out for the season. I guess Kotsay was getting lonely on the long term and Swisher couldn't guarantee he'd join him there.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releas...

"I'm so green and gold that I hang on every pitch, not just every game." - Lew Wolff

by BleacherDrummer on Apr 27, 2007 5:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Marty Lurie show mentioned the trade and ..

.. I wondered what the .. never heard of him ..

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/player...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/...

(Google)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

a Harden fast rule?

Nico, Nico, Nico -- didn't we have enough problems last year with Zito skipping meals?

You gotta work here or you don't get a beer. ~ Ken Korach @('.')@

by monkeyball on Apr 27, 2007 5:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sadly, the way I work is that

I put all my effort into coming up with a cool title and then I frantically, and desperately, try to come up with an entire opinion that matches the title.

Tune in Tuesday for: Occam's Razor with a four-run lead--is it a shave situation?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 27, 2007 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You do Great Job! ;-)

Are newbs allowed to compliment the Hosts? ;-) I will do so anyway - I think you are (all) excellent! My southern roots would compel me to say, "Y'all are Great!" ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Suck up.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

.. is AN a place for the pure in heart? .. ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed, only the pure in heart

...can hope to slay the Evil Dragon of Anaheim, Mickey.

"...so I figured, you know, why not test him." -- Travis Buck on One-Arm Johnny Damon

by BubbaDude on Apr 27, 2007 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

Indeed, despite my deficiencies, I will specialize in keeping a pure heart in the midst of the world-wearied realism of the AN Vets .. ;-) So maybe I do have some trade value to the team .. hehe .. ;-)

.. the Athletics may be small-market but they have BIG-heart! ..

by Randy Bell on Apr 27, 2007 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs