Halsey, service time, and the truth
by notsellingjeans on Apr 23, 2007 9:42 PM PDT
Email
PrintHalsey's newspaper quote captures PART of the issue.
"I kept going in and saying, 'My arm is bothering me, it's not right,' and they said, 'Oh, it's just biceps tendinitis, you'll be fine,' '' Halsey said by phone from Sacramento. "Then they send you down and screw you. I'm grinding it out, trying to be a team guy, and I get f -- . It's all just a business decision, because if I came up and pitched Tuesday and then had an MRI and had to go on the DL, they'd have to pay me major-league DL money. It's such a mom-and-pop organization."
Halsey IS right - this is at least in part a money issue. But he's missed how big of a money issue it is, and after you hear this you'll be a bit a bit more sympathetic to the A's decision-making:
Halsey's current major league service time stands at 2.048, according to Cot's. That means that if he spent the rest of the year on the big-league roster, DISABLED LIST OR NOT, he'd qualify as a three-year player...and thus be arbitration eligible. Meaning that he'd be in line for a raise from approximately 400K (what he'd make on the big club) to at least over a million, maybe even two million depending on how well he pitched with the big club.
If Halsey goes on the DL while in the minors, the team doesn't waste his ML service-time, and pays him a minor leaguer's $2000-ish a month salary. If he gets hurt while with the big club and goes on the DL, even after one game, he's being paid at that 400K annual rate...but worse yet for the team, they lose his service time while he's there. And that has ripple effects:
*Instead of costing $400K next year, he costs $1-2 millon (guessing at arby figures here).
*Instead of costing $1-2 million in '08, he's in year 2 of arby, and costing 2-3 million or more, depending on performance.
You can see how that ends up affecting the team's bottom line by millions of dollars over the course of a few years of player control in the organization. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to bring up a guy who is having an MRI, giving those potential drastic financial consequences. Halsey can call that "mom and pop" - I'd just call it great foresight by the team. That's a tough break for Halsey, but if the A's didn't make smart decisions like that, they wouldn't be successful year in and year out with their payroll.
Would anyone be surprised if Beane and Forst have been budgeting Halsey as a candidate to take over Kennedy's fifth spot in the rotation next year for the low cost of $400K? Keeping him down is simply sticking to that plan.
Now, from Halsey's perspective, for those that think he is "classless" for complaining in the media about this...
You have to be able to see Halsey's frustration here. Imagine in your own line of work, that you are capable of making $400,000, and the going rate for your type of services is $400,000, and your employer is paying you $20,000 instead. And you can't simply jump ship and go to a new employer - your current one owns you. Worse yet, you only have about 7-8 years left to make that kind of $400K-and-up money. If you thought you were good enough, right now, to be producing for another company and earning $400K, you'd be FURIOUS. Especially knowing that at any time your career in this profession, and your earning power, could suddenly end.
An objective person has to recognize that Halsey is good enough to be a big-league pitcher, even starter, for a few teams out there. He knows this, and so do the A's, but it's in their best interest to have him as insurance, and to be able to pencil him in as a cheap rotation option for next year.
He's acting out of anger and desperation - he knows he has no leverage, so by being a malcontent, he's hoping he'll get his wish, his opportunity, and his money, by being traded.
I'm guessing Beane won't fall into this trap - he'd clearly be selling low, and Halsey is a valuable piece of the eventual puzzle in '08, if not later this season (he could be on the roster for HALF of the season and not be arby-eligible next year).
But there is precedent for Beane flying off the handle and trading a player he's pissed at to send a message - remember Jeremy Giambi in Moneyball?
Final thoughts:
*Halsey didn't pitch well enough in spring to be that pissed about all of this. I can see how he'd feel more entitled than the next guy, given that he was with big club last year, but the fact is he didn't pitch well in ST. And DiNardo was out of options. Economics have to play a role in any smart team's decisions.
*As much pain as Halsey allegedly has been pitching through, he's got a 1.06 WHIP, 2.65 era, and a 17/3 K to walk ratio in 17 AAA innings so far. How messed up could he really be? I think he knows that he makes himself sound better when telling this story to tell the media that he's been "pitching through pain against his wishes" for two months. How much of an exaggeration that is, only he knows.
*I'd love to ask Brad Ziegler this question: How common is it for a minor league guy to get an MRI, or any kind of medical treatment, and have that communication not filter up to the big league level? Is the minor league med staff pretty much on an island, or in regular communication with Larry Davis and Co. for advice/consultation?
I just think it's important to know the extra factors that are playing into this.
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There is certainly a financial component to this
And I appreciate that the A's are interested in being cost efficient and blah blah blah.
You look after your people. There is no higher acclaim for an organization than one that looks after its people.
By the way, Mark Ellis hit .316 with a torn rotator cuff. Or does anyone want to imply that he was faking it?
"no higher acclaim"
A profitable business sometimes makes a tough decision and upsets its employees in the short term for greater long-term gain.
Although certainly I agre that taking care of your players and winning aren't mutually exclusive.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 23, 2007 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, winning is the most important thing
But why should there be a dichotomy between winning and taking care of your players?
Upset your employees for long term gain, sure, but then don't complain if your employees in turn do whatever they need to do for their own long term gain, including trashing you publicly.
Winning's important too
But if that were the most important thing in determining a team's acclaim... than why aren't you a Yankees fan?
A class organization is a well run organization. Well run organizations tend to win. Your arguement suggests that the two are exclusive.
Agree with your point - but about the Yankees ..
.. they are actually a class organization .. it is their fans who are boors .. and all the media frenzy which surrounds such a rich team ..
by Randy Bell on Apr 24, 2007 5:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Yankees drafted a kid not too long ago
and shortly after the draft he was diagnosed with lymphona. The Yankees paid for his surgery and the chemo.
Yeah, I think people get wrong impression ..
.. about the Yankees, because of their owner, the boorish fans, etc. Joe Torre is a class act, and they have not only an "all star" roster but a similar "all star" bunch of bench coaches and staff ..
by Randy Bell on Apr 24, 2007 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Wouldn't the "classiness" of an
organisation be determined by the owner, first and foremost? After all, in the end, it is Steinbrenner's money, not Torre's.
Yeah - as i said, Steinbrenner and the fans ..
.. are what taint the Yankees' image .. but the organization as a whole, including Brian Cashman the GM, is very sound .. and I really really hate the Yankees, heh .. just admitting to the truth about them ..
by Randy Bell on Apr 24, 2007 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I have no Sympathy for Halsey
Number one, even if he goes on the D.L in the Minors he will be making around 2000k per month, not bad money any way you look at it, for doing nothing. I tell you what, if you get hurt on the Job, you are not going anywhere near that amount. And you know what, nobody forced you to chase an Unlikely Profession as your career. You were the little kid who wanted to be a "big league ballplayer", well its like they say in the Navy, You choose your rate, you choose your fate...
perhaps "the admiral" should enlist?
Pretty absurd
$2000 a month is not a lot money to begin with.
But you're right nobody forced him to follow his dream, which as unlikey as it may have seemed when he was a little kid seems like a very real likely profession now, we should all just take jobs working in cubicles. But then we won't be able to bitch about our carpal tunnel.
by methodrampage on Apr 25, 2007 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Example from our own past...
"Ultimately, they are judged by their ability to win. A higher acclaim than taking care of their players is reaching the playoffs."
What about the 81 A's? Sure, they made the playoffs, but they ruined the arms of some very good starters to do it. On top of ruining some careers, the cost of that included the suffering blight that is Oakland's early to mid 1980s stretch of mediocrity.
Was that worth it?
No, it wasn't, you're right
But in the example you used with the '81 A's, they did something that damaged their ability to win in the long run...similar to what Dusty Baker did with Prior and Wood during their World Series run.
Of course I would never advocate that and neither would the A's - the A's value being consistently competitive over making one all-out run. They've shown that time and time again, never more so than with the Hudson/Mulder trades.
We're talking about a difference in the meaning "taking care of their players" - whether that means their physical health or their finances.
I agree that the A's don't want their players to make the maximum amount of money. They want to manipulate their service time clocks, manipulate their pitcher's usage to make them look more effective than they actually are for the purposes of trading (Saarloos, and probably eventually Halsey, who's AAA numbers make him look like a better pitcher than he would be in the AL).
But none of that is intentionally putting their health at risk. Halsey is painting this as a health issue to make him a more sympathetic figure in the media.
He doesn't sound nearly as sympathetic if he simply openly gripes that he's getting screwed financially.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 24, 2007 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you that the financial aspect...
...of this is significant, and that Halsey's got a legit gripe there.
However, at this point, I don't think that either of us is in a position to judge whether Halsey is exaggerating or openly lying about his shoulder issues.
And considering that he's not the first person in this organization to gripe about Oakland's medical practices, it's hard to brush off his feelings as merely some kind of ploy to improve his earnings.
our own past
it goes all the way back to connie mack and eddie rommel:
Rommel went 171-119 in his career, with a 3.57 ERA pitching in the high-octane offensive era of the 1920s and early 30s. His playing career ended in 1932, at age 34, though as late as 1931 he posted a 2.97 ERA. This somewhat hasty end for a knuckleballer no doubt had something to do with the fact that on July 10th of 1934, Mack called on Rommel (who was mostly a reliever at that point) to start the second inning of a game against the Indians, and he was still out there when the A's finally won in the 18th inning. Only two pitchers had been taken the train with the rest of the club for the one-day road trip to Cleveland. Rommel's arm never recovered from that, although he went on to eventually serve as an AL umpire for 22 years.
if his arm never fully recovered...
his "strike three" call must have been pretty tame.
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions
This isn't Sinclair's jungle we're talking about
here, it's a wildly lucrative entertainment industry. There's sense in being miserly with dollar management, especially for a franchise in a position like that of the A's. Personally, I can forgive the cold heartedness when I take a look at what these guys make. They ain't starving, to say the least. Even the minor leaguers.
by walk off bunt on Apr 24, 2007 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
the minor leaguers may not be starving...
...but they're not exactly dining gourmet, either. Especially if they've got families.
But in Halsey's case...
He's been paid a couple years worth of major league minimum salary...so yes, he and his family (mom and dad if he doesn't have a wife and kids yet, heh) can still be eating gourmet, despite the quotes here.
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Question regarding 40-man roster
Can a player who's been brought up to the big league team be taken back off the 40-man roster, and still be protected from other teams, once he's sent back down?
For example, if Putnam or Buck get sent back down, do they still have to occupy a 40-man roster spot to be protected? I would think not - they were drafted fairly recently. But again, I'm unsure here.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 23, 2007 11:30 PM PDT reply actions
Again, not 100% on this
because this is a scenario that I haven't seen happen often, if ever. But as I understand the rules, once a player is placed on the 40 man roster the only way they can be taken off is to be placed on waivers. That exposes the player to every team in the league.
Based on common sense alone
it would seem like they'd have to still be protected on the 40-man. A major league promotion would seem to take precedence over a lack of, eh, "professional baseball experience time". But I'm just guessing here.
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think Halsey is classless.
I think he wants a trade, and stupidly figured this would get him one.
I also happen to think he made the wrong move for the long term, because instead of being seen as a good #4 option by other teams, now they will be looking at him as a troublemaker.
You want a raise? That ain't the way to get it.
Now, if he'd thrown another few games in AAA and continued with his good recent form, he likely would have got his promotion in time, and his raise, and his arby clock rolling.
So basically, by mouthing off, he's talked himself out of the A's saying "heck with the cost, we need him upstairs" at any time in the next half season. Now they'll let him be Chuck Thomas until they're good and ready to use him up, and as Chuck knows, that could be 'never'.
An analogous approach worked for Jay Payton
When by most accounts he calculated a public fight with the amnager to force his way out of Boston. A couple middlin' seasons with teh A's later, and he's a well paid free agent signee.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 24, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
But Boston will burn cash willingly...
Oakland is a little more pennywise.
Offerman
There's a name from the past...wasn't that guy atrocious in the field? I think he would lead the league in errors as a second baseman, which isn't easy to do when Knoblauch's launching his routine 40-foot throws into the stands.
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions
He was indeed awful.
Hmmm.
I believe he played 88 games in '05 split between the Mets and Phillies.
by methodrampage on Apr 25, 2007 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
We should remember
these scenarios the next one of our free agents gets an offer from us for 4 years/$32 million but signs somewhere else for 4 years/$32.5 million. People will whine, wave the American flag, quote the Bible, mourn the loss of loyalty in sports, and wonder why players only care about money. The A's are making money hand over fist thanks to baseball's exploding revenues and franchise values, but choose to cut every corner, which is their right. It is also a player's right to decide that he would like to maximize his profit as well. That's why I never whine about free agents getting their money, they don't owe teams any loyalty because teams don't show loyalty.
You'r right
(although I reserve my right to irrationally hate Keith Foulke and Jason Giambi). But by the same token, this is the system that the player's union and the management have agreed upon. A player who belongs to the union really shouldn't bitch and moan about the fact that he's "owned" by a team or even the consequences of such ownership.
To his credit, Halsey may be frustrated by the fact that his union generally caters to upper echelon players, not fringe guys like him.
Agree
I'm not defending Halsey, he should shut his mouth and complain to the union quietly if the A's have actually forced him to pitch hurt and ignored his medical needs -- both of which would violate the collective bargaining agreement. Absent a violation of the collective bargaining agreement, Halsey should just suck it up and hope he gets an opportunity in Oakland or elsewhere. When the time comes to negotiate a contract with Oakland or some other team, he should hold out for every last nickel, because the A's (or any other team) doesn't give a shit about him or his family. That's just the way this business works, with a few notable exceptions when teams or players show loyalty to each other.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Spring MRI
I'm not defending Halsey, he should shut his mouth and complain to the union quietly if the A's have actually forced him to pitch hurt and ignored his medical needs -- both of which would violate the collective bargaining agreement. Absent a violation of the collective bargaining agreement, Halsey should just suck it up and hope he gets an opportunity in Oakland or elsewhere.
I think Halsey's main beef is that he was hurt in Spring Training, but the A's refused to give him an MRI because doing so might mean him spending time on the major league DL--earning service time and his regular salary.
I would guess refusing to properly evaluate or treat a player out of fear of financial loss is against the CBA, but I don't know where to find the text.
CBA
The old one is here. I wasn't able to find the 2007 one online.
Thanks!
otherwise known as
"the Kotsay clause"
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions
RE: CBA
Maury Brown had a note today about the new CBA:
Yes, in October of last year, MLB and the MLBPA struck a new labor agreement, much to the surprise of many. Everyone applauded the sides for reaching labor peace (again), and with that, there has been much said about how the new agreement works to address matters such as revenue sharing.
That was 6 months ago, and the public still hasn’t been able to get their hands on it. An email to the MLBPA came back with, "I believe it’s still being proofed."
That doesn't really seem to hold water
The A's could have simply assigned Halsey to AAA prior to giving him an MRI if they were really worried about being on the hook for $400,000 plus service time instead of $20,000. And the A's aren't going to knowingly let one of their players (read: assests) pitch hurt in AAA and possibly ruin his arm (read: value).
Halsey's story doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
I also think that BlameChannel53 is overly harsh with respect to how the A's view/treat their players. I quite agree that it's a business, but that doesn't mean the A's don't care about their players or show loyalty to them -- see the A's negotiations and contract deal with Chavez for a positive example.
And for the players that only follow the dollar, they'll find that not all organizations are created equal, and that life frequently isn't as good elsewhere as it is in Oakland.
by andyinfremont on Apr 24, 2007 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Not choosing sides
The A's could have simply assigned Halsey to AAA prior to giving him an MRI if they were really worried about being on the hook for $400,000 plus service time instead of $20,000. And the A's aren't going to knowingly let one of their players (read: assests) pitch hurt in AAA and possibly ruin his arm (read: value).
I'm not arguing that Halsey is correct in his accusations; I'm just trying to clarify the nature of his complaint. I don't think it's about being forced to pitch hurt or having Braden called up ahead of him--but rather it's the context of having his requests for an MRI in the spring ignored.
Again, I don't know if that actually happened. But he's claiming that the A's did exactly that: assign him to AAA before giving him an MRI. It doesn't really matter when the assignment occured if they really denied him an MRI while he was on the MLB roster out of financial concern.
We'll probably find out more when his MRI comes back--if it's reported.
foulke is different
he screwed the a's over, so there are legitimate reasons to hate him (he's to blame for rhodes, dotel AND kendall).
and a's fans aren't that bad, very few hate thomas or zito, and many wish them the best (perhaps thomas more than zito). as far as giambi is concerned, like mulder, he bashed the city/fans after leaving.
Oh yeah
I hate free agents that leave for money and then try to bullshit us with how they love the schools in Colorado or "they just want to win." I think Torii Hunter is a terribly overrated baseball player, but I admire him for admitting on national television last week that his decision to stay with the Twins will be determined by how much he gets paid. The players should just be honest about it when they want to get paid more, there is nothing wrong with their decisions. Saying stupid crap just alienates their former team by implicitly stating that there was something wrong with their former team.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions
"love the schools in Colorado"
lol...I wonder how the schools in South Florida and (presumably) suburban Atlanta have treated the Hampton family...
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions
True about Mulder and Giambi
(although Mulder's quotes are taken out of context, I'll always make fun of him for saying it). And of course, my thoughts on Foulke are well-known and correspond to yours.
yeah, i don't mind mulder
i hope he does well. and i'd feel the same way about giambi and zito if they didn't play for the enemy.
from that diary, another example of the a's valuing money over the health of their players:
http://www.athleticsnation.com/comme...
add it to the list!
I hate Foulke because when he left
he stated he wanted to go somewhere where he could win the World Series. I have two problems with that.
- If he hadn't blown game 4 in Boston in 2003 we very well could have won the World Series.
- If he stayed with the A's they could have very well won the World Series.
In the end he did win the World Series - so he was right in a way, but come on. These morons need to learn and just keep their mouth shut. I don't like Zito anymore because 2 days before he signed with the Giants he said he wanted to play with someone who was committed to winning. The Giants Barry, please? Shut your mouth.
by SwisherSweet33 on Apr 24, 2007 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
My beef with Foulke
is his whole line of BS about not caring about the money. You know, if a player cares mainly about getting rich then fine, I don'thave a problem with someone trying to milk his talent for all it's worth. Just don't lie about it or suck op to A's fan by saying the big bucks don't matter.
by kaweahkaweah on Apr 24, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Halsey's not an MLBPA member
so long as he's in the minors, although the MLBPA may serve some informal advocacy role for guys like Halsey on the 40 man roster but not the 25 man.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 24, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I doubt that.
My mouthing off he also highlighted
his iffy health status. I fully understand his frustration, but clearly he's not as strategic a thinker as the A's front office.
I love that the A's are giving a shot to Braden, Buck, Putnam. They're getting their future out there while still contending rather than filling in with AAAA players.
More Halsey
the plot thickens
[grabs popcorn]
Timetable for BLoiaza return?
Any word on when Loaiza will start rehabbing?
by BruceBochte on Apr 24, 2007 7:07 AM PDT reply actions
and the A's are perfectly capable
of continuing to use halsey as they see fit, outburst or no. If they want to call him up (and send him back down) they no doubt will, as alluded to by Geren:
Halsey isn't as foolish
as he would appear at first blush. He has been posting decent numbers at AAA. This is his way of getting his name out there to the other teams. There is a dearth of pitching available, and now 29 other GM's know of a dissatisfied prospect who can be had in trade. They also know that BB will not just let him go to be a "stand up" guy. He will require his pound of flesh.
This may have been a well calculated business move on Halsey's part. Baseball players have a limited window of opportunity to make their money. Most guys aren't signed to super rich contracts. Halsey knows his window is closing, and he's looking out for himself and his own. I don't blame him.
Can someone explain why he would get $2000/mo?
You said that Halsey wold get $2000/mo on the DL in Sac, but he's on the 40-man roster, so why wouldn't he get his normal $380K salary?
Also, I can't stand baseball players that whine about money. He'll make hundreds of thousands, possibly millions playing BASEBALL! A game that most of us loved to play as a kid! Gimme a break! The guy is puling the classless JayPay manuever.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 8:16 AM PDT reply actions
So, because a baseball player
is playing a game that most fans loved to play as kids means that he shouldn't care how much he earns? What if he doesn't like to play baseball? And, there is the difference between playing at the "kid" level and the professional level. What if the player likes to play baseball, but dislikes working out, watching his diet, watching video etc; all the things that a professional athlete has to do.
What if he blows out his shoulder? Are the fans going to support him financially then?
Then hopefully he can use his brain
and get a job!
So essentially, we have to consider that, oh my, he might not be happy playing the game of baseball! God forbid he actually has to stay in shape and watch videos (which I suppose is very difficult).
Damn right I'm not going to care about how much a player "earns". Key word - earns. The money will come. Even if he's mediocre he'll make millions. When else could you say that a mediocre business man will make millions? (Door left open)
All athletes have an injury risk and should understand that when pursuing professional sports. It's called risk vs. reward. So they (if smart) should have a back up plan.
He's a whiner!
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
My points
were in reply to your statement that he's doing something that most fans love doing. Since being a professional athlete is easy, why are not the majority of people professional athletes?
Halsey is not going to make millions unless he gets to start in the majors, as opposed to rotting in the minors.
Of course every athlete should have a backup plan. Does that mean that an athlete shouldn't try to maximise his earning potential? Does that mean a businessman shouldn't try to earn as as much as he can?
Never said it was easy.
Just didn't want to hear him whine in the media. That, IMHO, is classless.
Yes, he should try to maximize his potential by hardwork . . . without coming across as a cry baby. Would you rather your cowrker get a bigger raise than you because he constantly complained to your boss, or would you rather you boss look at your perfomance and base the adjustment on that?
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends on what my coworker is complaing about
If his complaining in the media is classless, how about the organisation's declining to spend $1000 in spring training on an MRI to diagnose a work-related injury?
Well then that should net him an MRI
that's all.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
It didn't
If the organisation had just done the MRI in spring training, when he was complaining of pain and asking for an MRI, this situation would not have arisen, he would not have grounds to complain to the press about the organisation's refusal to send him for an MRI.
Oh, my mistake
I thought he was whining about money. My bad.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
And if the team
was "classy" enough to spend the $1000 in spring, he would have no basis to whine.
So you're saying
If he got the MRI in ST, and let's say it showed no structural damage -> he pitches poorly in ST -> he's sent to Sac -> he pitches (through the pain) quite well actually -> he still gets bypassed and he won't whine that he got bypassed? That's not what I read from the comments.
Other scenario -> MRI in ST showed damage and he's shelved. Would he be on the AAA DL?
So the MRI got him nothing, he ends up in the same place, right?
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm saying that if the MRI in Spring Training
had showed no damage, he would have no basis to complain that the A's are a "mom and pop" operation because they wouldn't do the MRI in spring.
If the MRI in ST had showed damage, I believe that he would be on the MLB DL.
Also, if there was a significant injury, especially a shoulder injury, beyond mere biceps tendinitis, continuing to pitch would likely increase the chance of injury, in any body part.
Oh yeah, one other point
A mediocre player in MLB, is still one of the best baseball players in the world. A mediocre player in MLB is not the equivalent of a mediocre businessman. Rather, mediocre MLB player == great businessman.
Disagree
My point is valid. Same thing, different scale.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Disagree
A mediocre profession baseball players sits in AA and might max out at AAA where they aren't exactly raking in the millions.
by methodrampage on Apr 24, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Why is your point valid?
A mediocre baseball player is not a mediocre MLB player. A mediocre baseball player is someone like Charles Thomas, or Hiram Bocachica. Are they going to make millions?
A mediocre baseball player...
isn't playing professionally, at any level.
by Cutthemullet on Apr 25, 2007 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Baseball *is* a job
I, for one, don't think you're giving basebal players enough credit. Yes, their short-term career consists of a job that most of us fans would love to do, talent permitting. However, keep in mind, it's a very specialized job that few people truly have enough talent to play in the major leagues where the money is at. And even which such talent, it's not a "brainless" job as you implied. Players with major league ambitions need to do a sustantial amount of research on other players (pitcher's and their tendencies), spend a fair amount of time on fine-tuning / improving their own job skills, and be on their toes at all times in any game situation (all the things a fielder / batter keeps track of, positioning, etc). It's not as "easy" as you may think it is to be a proficient major leaguer.
And while the average major leaguer may make millions, it's still closer to a blue collar job than a white collar job. Think of it this way - how many non-sport millionaires out there have a job that doesn't involve delegating work out to underlings? Sports players can't really delegate things out to other people. There's also the short career-span of a major leaguer and the need to cash in ASAP. Considering how an injury can both unsuspectingly cut a player's career short and/or cause permanent physical ailments post-retirement (hello Joe Montana), I can agree to a player's need to do everything possible to secure as much cash as possible to cover themselves after their playing days are over.
Adding onto that is the fact the most players spend years trying to "pay their dues" in a non-glamorous minor-leaguer life chasing the dream, only to fall short. Halsey has been in the majors, and to be back down in AAA, knowing that he can be an average major-leaguer has gotta be driving him nuts. He's trying to secure a job on the gravy train, and he feels like the organization hasn't been forthright with him about getting back there. (Imagine if you were stuck in a job knowing you could perform at the next level, and being unable to switch companies)
I find it insulting to assume that a sports-player has an "easy" life without actually taking the time to think of what it takes to both get there and stay there. Yeah, it's not a 9-5 desk job, but that doesn't mean that they don't have to work at it. We shouldn't be begrudging them getting paid well for a job what most of us would love to do.
When did I ever say it was easy?!
And when did I say it was a "brainless" job, that's your assumption. I was only answering the comment about if a players BODY is broken, he still has a BRAIN that can earn him a living.
Your right though, I should have clarified. I meant MLB player (inlcudes one that is on the cusp, such as Halsey) will make hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Or, he could get hurt in AAA
And end up making less than your average garbageman, with worse benefits and no career future.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 24, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Garbage men don't have it so bad
They actually make a fairly decent wage.
Ya gotta do what cha gotta do.
Risk vs. Reward
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes they do
Because they're represented by a union that looks out for what happens to them, including advocacy if they're hurt on the job.
Too bad for Halsey he didn't have the same support.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 24, 2007 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Gimme a break
Now the guy is "not being looked after". What?!
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Mediocre?
Mediocre on what level? Being mediocre on the major league level means he's actually in the upper echelon of professional baseball. I'm sure there are plenty of mediocre CEO's making millions.
by methodrampage on Apr 24, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Grover or someone will need to fact-check me here
(It's important to me to not send wrong info here, because I often come here to learn).
I'm assuming a minor league salary of around $2,000 a month, depending on what level a guy is at. So $20,000 is a very rough estimate.
He does not, to my knowledge, make MAJOR LEAGUE minimum pay (380,000) unless he is on the major league roster. But you sound like you know more about this than I do RCB - does everyone on the 40-man make at least the big-league minimum?
Either way, the future ramifications for him and the A's are bigger than that few hundred grand difference - it's the difference of millions when you factor in the possibility of him reaching each stage of arbitration one year early.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 24, 2007 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
A little more than that
but still far from the $380K major league minimum.
Players on the 40-man roster, but not the 25-man roster, who have previous major league service time, make a minimum of $60K/year. Even a one week promotion to the majors (which is probably about how long Putnam and Braden will be here) is worth around $15K at the major league minimum, which is a pretty significant sum to someone making minor league money. And as GreenNGoldSooner points out, the MLBPA seems to represent this class of players only grudgingly, and doesn't represent other minor leaguers at all.
Thank you for answering my question
I wasn't exactly sure how it worked, but thanks for the clarification Andeux.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Why the resentment?
He's been playing baseball for most of his life for free or for peanuts. He's doing the best he can for himself, just like the rest of us. He may or may not make millions. There are tons of guys who we never hear of who play a little while and are done in short order. Not all players hit the jackpot. I hope he has a reserve plan also, but I hope his primary plan works out too.
Pass the Hat
I go to a lot of Visalia Oaks games since it's only an hour's drive fom my house and they have had great prospects and play the Ports. One of the things they do there is "Pass the Hat" after an Oaks player hits a homerun, and fans give money to the minor leaguers. Last game I was at, Brian Byrne hit a home run and got what I would estimate as $500. Many fans don't realize that for guys like Brian Byrne, who don't have big bonuses to live off of, that $500 is a lot of money. A life in the minors is not some glamourous lifestyle of "playing a kids game" while making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. It is a lot of hard work with no guarantee of ever reaching the majors. For guys like Justin Upton, who got a $6.1 million bonus and therefore is almost guaranteed a chance in the majors at some point, life is easy. Fans focus in on guys like Upton or A-Rod and forget all the guys like Brian Byrne or Brad Halsey that are busting their asses chasing a dream, and may never get rich in doing so.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
That's awesome!
Never heard of pass the hat, that's cool.
Look, I know that minor leaguers make peanuts and I feel for those that grind day in and day out trying to make a career out of it. They earn respect. And that's what they chose to do, so if they start whining (in the media) it shows me lack of character. Simple as that.
Plus my main gripe was with a player (who publically lambasted his company) that is on a 40 man roster making the league min. $380K. (that's a lot of peanuts)
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
He's not making that money
The way I understand it, players without guaranteed major league contracts don't get major league money when they are in the minors, regardless of 40 man roster status. I think that was the entire point of Halsey's gripe. I have said before, though, that I think Halsey should shut up (arguing with your boss in the press is just stupid) and either contact the union or drop it, depending on whether he has facts to back up his accusations or was venting out of frustration. We agree that Halsey should shut up, but I don't agree that Halsey should just be happy to be playing baseball. Baseball is a business just like any other job, and like any employee Halsey has the right to want to maximize his pay.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Whining
You've never complained about your company, your boss, a co-worker or anything to do with your job? If that's the case, nicely done, you might be the only one. The only problem is the media doesn't give a damn about what you have to say about you're job so they aren't listening. The media serves a purpose, what kind and extent of the purpose is debatable, but if Halsey truly believes he's being neglected I don't see a problem voicing it to the media. However, he probably shouldn't have said some of the stuff that he did.
by methodrampage on Apr 24, 2007 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Whining to get a raise
is what I was talking about. If my boss gave my coworker a larger raise over me (assuming I deserveed a larger one based on performance) simply because he whined, then yes, I'm pissed. If you need to address something with your boss, whining is not the best tactic.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps you haven't heard the cliche
"Squeaky wheel gets the oil" ?
Halsey's point could've been made more diplomatically. That said, look at things from his perspective. He asked for an MRI during spring training to diagnose a work-related injury and was denied then. He accepted a demotion, figuring that it was temporary and he'd get a shot soon enough as long as his performance warranted it. His performance, for the most part has. So, he hears from one source his shot/return is imminent. And just as he's getting his hopes up, he finds out that his promotion is denied due to a scheduled MRI that the team should done in ST. And he's passed up by someone lower on the totem pole. Say what you may about his whining, but he does have a reason to be severely irked. And as far as I have read, he wasn't explicitly whining for more money. It was moreso a "this company is stingy cheap" (a sentiment many of us can identify with). Like Melhuse's beef last year, he feels like the company hasn't been straightforward with him, and in any job, that's a bad thing to feel.
Unlike the real world, where any of us can quit and attempt to find another job, Halsey doesn't quite have that option. For the most part, he's better than 95% of the general population at what he does and he wants to be in a position where he's paid fairly for it. If it means it's with another club, I have no problem with Halsey trying to steer things in that direction for the betterment of his own future. Hence, squeaky wheel gets the oil. Given what he feels the A's just did to him, I can understand his thought that he'd never get another shot by keeping his mouth shut.
Being a man and whining are not mutually exclusive. A lot of the advancements in our history are a result of whining (women's / civil rights, worker's rights, umm ... freedom from England)
Sometimes the wheel gets replaced with a new one
Especially if the squeak is really bad. And maybe that wheel was never right to begin with. Maybe there's a newer one with a bearing that would actually work a lot better without the potential of squeaking.
You really made a leap there. You're equating women/ civil rights protests with a baseball player whining about money???? Wow.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
You're missing my point completely
Suffering in silence tends not to change a situation.
Women's /Civils rts movements are not on the same level on scope or impact as a player wanting more money, but both have a cause and hoped for effect.
Baby cries, it gets fed. Women protest, equal rights (equal pay still a work in progress). Minorities protest, civil rights granted. Worker's protest, unions formed, workers protected. Tea dumped into Boston Harbor, revolution (joking about the link) Complaint, resolution.
So yeah, there is a comparison. Complain, and change happens. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. Like you said, maybe the wheel isn't good enough to get oil. Silence has a tendency to perpetuate the status quo. I'm all for Halsey beefing. Whether he's justified is for us fans to speculate.
"Baby cries, it gets fed"
Actually, we'll have to see if Halsey gets fed. ;)
And it is you that initially missed the point completely.
In no way did I say Halsey should "suffer in silience", and I believe you agree with your diplomatic comment. Just don't take cheap shots in the media, cause it only make you look like a cry baby, but then maybe not to all.
And I still don't think those historic changes you mentioned were brought about by the simplistic classless whining (or complaining, as you call it) that Halsey did, but rather a entire organized movement. I view them completely different.
I think you're missing my point entirely if you equate the two.
Sure complaining (whining) will create action, but not always the action you desire.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Where are you at?
I live in the Fresno area, but I have never seen the Visalia team play. I suppose I should. I have heard of the "pass the hat" routine, and I'm sure it's a godsend to a lot of those minor league players.
I guess the only thing we disagree on is that Halsey is whining. I tend to view his statements to the press as an attempt to leverage his postition. He wants to pitch in the show. He probably views this as his only realistic option to make it happen this year. Cause it ain't likely to happen for Oakland. If it does, so much the better for him....maybe not so much for the fans....lol. I hope I am giving him credit for being shrewd.
Hence the JayPay strategy
He's leveraging his position by whining. Sad thing is, it usually works if the player has talent. Be a man and stop whining.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that's my point.
He is being a man by "whining". He's looking out for his own. I won't fault him for that. I don't know if he's married or not, whether he has kids or not, but I do know that the only person who's opinion would matter to me if I were in his situation is my wifes. I couldn't look her in the eye if I weren't doing all I possibly could to secure her the best possible position in life that I could. If that means fans hate me or resent me for it, then so be it.
And I suppose that's where we differ
To you being a man is being a cry baby if you don't get what you think you deserve. To me, being a man is showing or discussing respectfully that you deserve what you think you deserve without whining.
But I suppose that's your opinion.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
No, being a man
is doing what's right for your family. Look, there's not much else he can do except to try and force a trade. Oakland owns him lock, stock, and barrell. Time is running out for him. Every day that passes by closes his window of opportunity just that much further. What would you have him do? Keep his mouth shut in Sacramento and suck it up? I sure as hell woulnd't do it if I saw another avenue. My opinion is that he has surveyed the landscape and has understood the writing on the wall. His best chances lie elsewhere, and as long as he is owned by Oakland those chances are rapidly diminishing.
I would surely be interested in you explaining your position to him in a face to face conversation and explaining to him why he isn't being a man.
So now I'm supposed to be intimidated?
Oooo, face-to-face, mano-a-mano.
Look, whining or not, it looked like he was on the 2-man list of pitchers being considered. So Braden got the call, it's not to say Halsey won't be second in line . . . without the whining.
You can do what's right for your family without being a cry baby. It was a classless move on his part, period.
by rcb on Apr 24, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
No, it's not the mano e mano thing...
it's just a little different when it's a flesh and blood human being in front of you trying to do the best that he can. Maybe he will get the call....and maybe he wont. It just seems to me that your making it more personal than it should be. Halsey is making a business decision, much like his employers are doing. He is acting in his own self interest just as they are. Class probably has little to do with it.
I'm in Fresno too
You should try to make it down to a Visalia Oaks game when they are playing the Ports. For $8 you can walk up an hour before game time and get a seat within 75 feet of home plate, and the parking is free. A sellout is less than 2,000 people, so the atmosphere is very intimate. Last game I went to the microphone broke while a girl was singing the national anthem and she did it without any amplification from the pitcher's mound and everyone in the stadium could hear her. Pretty cool way to watch a game overall.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I think I will.
Sounds like a great way to spend a Saturday afternoon with my son.
They're having a promotion on Father's Day
Where you can take your son on the field and play catch. My son and I are going for that one.
by BlameChannel53 on Apr 24, 2007 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The Salary Structure of Organized Baseball
What's really at fault here is the salary structure of organized baseball. Basically, the MLBPA has over the years created a very, very nice deal for major league baseball players, while minor leaguers have a much more rotten deal. It thus behooves clubs like the A's to take advantage of this fact and not give Halsey time in the show.
A more industrial-union approach to collective bargaining, one that put all professional ballplayers, major and minor, in one big union, would have doubtless created a less winner-take-all salary structure.
We live in a generally winner take all society, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that baseball players have chosen to structure their salaries in this way. Baseball's collective bargaining agreement is designed principally to very, very richly compensate the very best players and (in part through arbitration) and to also richly compensate mediocre players. But those losers only good enough to have a cup of coffee in the show (or not even get there at all) are, relatively speaking, SOL.
Thanks for playin' Brad.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Apr 24, 2007 9:30 AM PDT reply actions
the anti bocachica?
ok, so i don't know a thing about hiram bocachica, but he seems to consistently be passed over for 4th/5th outfielder jobs and i can't recall him ever voicing discontent. even in this situation, he's hitting pretty dang well in sacramento (OPS over .900) and is passed up by a guy from the AA club? bummers for him, but he didn't go all hissy fit about it, at least publicly.
i can certainly understand halsey's frustration, but he really handled the situation poorly. and that's a pretty big understatement.
by Eric in Atlanta on Apr 24, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions
Well, Bocha is a little bit different...
Bochachica has been playing baseball long enough to become a minor-league free agent - he had spent six minor league seasons, and could sign with whomever he wanted.
The A's have opened him up to waivers before (when he was taken off the 40-man to open up room for higher-upside guys like Donnie Murphy), and nobody claimed Bochachica. At that point, he had the option to leave the A's and sign a minor league contract with the team of his choice, assuming they wanted him.
Halsey has had no such opportunity due to having been a professional baseball player for a much shorter amount of time.
Bochachica's decision was one he made; Halsey has yet to have the veteran privilege of controlling his own fate.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 24, 2007 10:31 AM PDT reply actions
Designated for Assignment
There's no way to get someone off the 40-man roster without exposing him to waivers. Designating him for assignment delays the waiver process for ten days, but it doesn't halt it if no one is willing to make a deal for the player.
Way too much attention to Halsey
The guy was frustrated - he expected to get the call and didn't, which may have cost him many thousands of dollars. And he thought the team was making the decision for the wrong reason. So he lashed out. I'm guessing with a day's worth of insight, he'd take that back. I'm sure not going to judge the guy based on one (understandable, in my view) incident. And I'm pretty sure that Beane won't either.
Halsey's salaries for the past 3 seasons
Player Notes Salary Data Teammates
Year Salary Rank Lg Avg Centile
2004 *300,000 1,716,303 80
2005 317,500 1,825,756 64
2006 346,000 1,937,004 53
Career: $963,500 estimate
Not Bad -I agree he is getting the short end of the stick on this deal, but...
Take out taxes
and you're at like $500K
by methodrampage on Apr 24, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
He needs a new accountant...
...if he paid nearly 50% in taxes. He probably pocketed over $600K.
Average U.S. salary: $36,764 for 2002 (before taxes).
In other words, Halsey earned in 3 years what the average American earns in 26 years (about 2/3 of the average persons working life).
by andyinfremont on Apr 24, 2007 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Which means nothing
Halsey has a unique skill set that allows him to earn more money than an "average" person. Much like a doctor or a lawyer has a specific skill set that allows them to make more than the average. If you're going to bitch about anything, bitch about the society that decides an entertainer like Halsey deserves to make so much money.
Here's a thought, teach your kid to throw left handed!
But it does mean something
Sure, Halsey has a special skill set, but he's the one who raised the money issue and claimed he's been treated badly (even though there's significant evidence to the contrary). Putting his claims in a broader context seems both legitimate and useful to the ongoing conversation. That's not bitching, that's telling it like it is.
Even within his own profession, Halsey has already earned far more than most professional baseball players (most of whom will never make the Show) ever make in their entire career.
Good point about society deciding an athelete/entertainer like Halsey deserves to make so much money; although you could easily expand that list to include CEOs, lawyers, etc...
by andyinfremont on Apr 25, 2007 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, Halsey raised the $$$ issue
Because this is about his livelihood. And the one indisputable fact in all of this is that Halsey would be making more money in the big leagues than in the minors.
What else do we know to be true?
We know that Halsey has been pitching all year. We know that Halsey has been experiencing arm problems all year. How do we know this? Because the A's medical staff diagnosed it as biceps tendonitis. They also scheduled an MRI back on April 11th and re-scheduled him for one later this month. If the medical staff believes there is an issue with his arm than we MUST accept that Halsey is telling the truth about something being "not right" with his arm.
What Halsey perceives to be true about his situation (that this is all about the A's wanting to save a few bucks) may not necessarily be the whole Truth, it may not be the whole story. What we have to ask ourselves is if Halsey's perception is valid, can we make a legitamite arguement along the lines he proposes?
And we can.
Halsey told the A's something was wrong with his arm. The A's asked him to pitch through it in the minors. When the opportunity arose that the A's needed to promote a minor league pitcher to make a start in Baltimore, Halsey was passed over by a pitcher with 1 career game above AA. If Halsey has to go on the DL it would cost the A's less if he was sent down while on a minor league roster.
You make some cogent points
...some of which were made above, but you skim over some things too:
- Anyone in any job complaining about their pay/benefits/treatment with respect to their health is talking about their "livelihood". That doesn't make their points valid/true, just newsworthy in this case. It's impossible to tell at this stage if Halsey is a whistleblower or a whiner (or both).
- We don't know if Halsey's arm problems are such that he can't/shouldn't pitch. Hence the MRI (which he initially missed and had to re-schedule).
- Halsey's view that something is "not right" with his arm is still subjective. His phrasing implies that he shouldn't have been pitching at all, and yet he's upset that he didn't get promoted because of (in his opinion) the injury and the risk he might get DL'd. He can't have it both ways.
- There are injuries you can play through, and their are injuries you can't (or shouldn't). It's unclear if he thought/thinks he shouldn't have been pitching all this time, why he continued if he thought his condition was serious, etc...
I appreciate the discussion here, and will be interested to see how it all plays out. I hope Halsey isn't seriously injured and that he can contribute to the big club at some point if we need him.
by andyinfremont on Apr 26, 2007 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions
One big problem
Those are big league salaries. Since Halsey spent almost all of '04 and most of '05 in the minors, he didn't make anywhere near the amounts you show.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 24, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Halsey's ML time
He wasn't in the Big's much in 2004 (7 starts, 8 appearences for the Yankees), but he was there for all of 2005 with Arizona, and nearly all of 2006 with Oakland.
by andyinfremont on Apr 24, 2007 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Awesome analysis, NSJ
Seriously. This is the sort of thing I'd like to see from real sports columnists, instead of the gossipy buzz that sells magazines. Thank God for the Internet.
As far as I'm concerned, the A's only look bad here if they knew an MRI was appropriate during spring training but denied it anyway for fear of the long-term cost (ie, Halsey on the major league DL for a long time). But I don't think that's how it happened.
If he really has been injured all this time, how come we're only hearing about it now? If there was a genuine health issue there, would the A's really let him pitch three games in Sacramento? Even if they were too stingy to get the MRI in spring training, why wouldn't they take a look as soon as he was back in AAA?
And now, why did Halsey miss an appointment on April 11? It seems like he didn't think it all that urgent either. I agree with your original premise, NSJ, he's complaining about the fact that he's getting screwed financially, and the medical story is just a cover that makes him look more sympathetic.
I was wondering this too:
Even if they were too stingy to get the MRI in spring training, why wouldn't they take a look as soon as he was back in AAA?
As for Halsey's missed appointment:
Tom O'Connell, Halsey's agent, said that Halsey went to the appointment but when he arrived, he found he was at the wrong location and the test had to be rescheduled. (He went to the hospital where he'd been examined initially but the MRI testing was done elsewhere.)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...
so in other words
All those who've never
messed up an appointment, please raise your hand.
a medical appointment?
<raises hand>
<breaks gigglingone's arm>
stick that thing out there again!
by methodrampage on Apr 25, 2007 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I have
And yes it was a medical appointment. I went to the wrong doctor's office to get a physical for work. I figured out my mistake and got to the right place in time, but still...
And in terms of baseball related misses, I once went to the wrong A's game. I coulda sworn I had tickets to a Saturday game so I drove from Sac to Oakland to attend. Gave my ticket to the front gate, got it torn in half and proceeded to my seat.
Which was occupied. Since the person in the seat was a member of a 4 person family, I double checked my ticket stub. The seat was mine! On Sunday.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt ...
he's not an idiot -- his agent is for not making sure he knew where to go.
BUT
It's pretty crappy of him to try to use his own mistake (Even if it is an understadable one) to bash the team.
Hey, you guys are the ones who have...
put more of these pieces together.
I do think it's interesting, like MDL and Danny have posted, and maybe not coincidental, that Halsey ended the 2006 regular season on our 25-man roster, and that he probably (confirmation?) would have been listed on the Major League DL and received Major League money and continued service time if he had a documented injury in ST.
If that was even a FACTOR in the team not giving him an MRI, that would be quite unethical IMO.
I think it's too early to accuse the A's of that until we know more.
Things I'd like to know/get evidence of:
a.) That Halsey's assertion is correct and the A's did refuse his request of an MRI. Just because Halsey is saying that doesn't make it true.
b.) Why Halsey missed a scheduled MRI on April 11th.
Both those things are quite relevant and I don't think anyone can accurately take sides or assign blame until we know them.
by notsellingjeans on Apr 24, 2007 1:52 PM PDT reply actions
Recommended...
...because I always need an explanation of arby clocks and whatnot. :)
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 24, 2007 5:15 PM PDT reply actions
Recommended...
...because I always need an explanation of arby clocks and whatnot. :)
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 24, 2007 5:16 PM PDT reply actions
I did?
I only see my name listed once...
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Apr 26, 2007 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions
dude
You're raking in the recs with this one. Deservedly so.
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