A's Pitcher Kirk Saarloos Traded to the Reds

Shafer

More info on Shafer

Shafer, 25, was 1-2 with a 2.36 ERA (13er in 49.2ip) with 26 saves in 44 appearances for Double-A Chattanooga last season. He struck out 52 batters in his 49.2 innings of work, issued just 16 walks, allowed just two home runs and limited hitters to a .204 batting average. His 26 saves were tied for second in the Southern League. Over the past two seasons, he has limited hitters to a .207 average (77-207). Originally selected in the 32nd round of the 2001 First-Year Player Draft, Shafer has posted a 14-16 record and a 2.59 ERA (71er in 246.1ip) to go along with 63 saves in 169 minor league appearances, including seven career starts. He has struck out 269 batters in his 246.1 innings of work while walking 74 batters and limiting opponents to a .219 (200-915) batting average. A native of Flagstaff, Ariz., Shafer attended Central Arizona Community College. He will be placed on Oakland's 40-man roster.

by OaklandA23 on Jan 23, 2007 12:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Link

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070123&c ontent_id=1784673&vkey=pr_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak

"I mean, hey, if they're going to bring the A's to Fremont, you might as well bring a Hooters." ~ some guy

by Poppy on Jan 23, 2007 12:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not surprising

I was expecting Saarloos to be traded all offseason. Saarloos had a magical 2005, but 200 showed that his Cinderella time had passed. Saarloos is starting to get expensive, and I was surprised that the A's would want to pay him over a million while there are players in the minors who have more talent. Shafer is nothing special, but he could be a "useful bullpen spare part" as John Sickels predicted. That sounds about right for a guy with Saarloos' limited abilities and increasing salary.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 12:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

should be "2006 showed"

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You put it best.

Although we got the most out of Saarloos, he definitely has "limited abilities."
Simply no need to pay him too much money.

Now, all we need is a first basemen who will hit 45-50 homeruns and we're set.

by nfadil4 on Jan 23, 2007 12:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Scouting report: BA 2006

Former JC teammate of Rich Harden. Turns 25 in March. 6-2, 180 lbs R/R.

88-92 FB, average SL, average CH.

BA ranked him as the 26th best prospect in Cincy's system. (This was back in 2006, remember.)

Bit of a flyball pitcher but he's been able to avoid the HR.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/S/David-Shafer.shtml

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 12:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Anyone think

this + Embree + that Dunn guy represents a commitment to try and make Gaudin a starter?

by mikeA on Jan 23, 2007 12:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

my theory

we're going with a 25 man bullpen this year.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Heck, who needs fielders

if you can get 27 K's every game, right?

"I guess more players lick themselves than are ever licked by an opposing team." ~ Connie Mack

by Flyin As on Jan 23, 2007 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

unless we bring back Canseco...

probably a 12 or 13 man bullpen

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

the thought crossed my mind too...

Gaudin competing for the starters job out
of spring training with Kennedy and the
others.

the A's were carrying one too many a pitcher
on the 25-man and a trade was inevitable.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

with so many question marks in the rotation

(kennedy, harden, loaiza), i think this move indicates the front office has a fair amount of confidence in both gaudin and windsor (and maybe even halsey) to step in if necessary.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope they

don't have too much confidence in Windsor...

by mikeA on Jan 23, 2007 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i hope they have SOME confidence in windsor

sure he looked lousy in 13 innings with the a's, but he had a k/9 over 9 in the minors, including in 120 innings for sacto.
i bet he could be a decent fifth starter if he gets the chance. as much as i like saarloos and dislike windsor's anthony reyes style hat, he'd probably be better than saarloos.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

lol...

seeing as I never got the chance to witness any of Windsor's 13 IP with the A's this year, I'm wondering about the Reyes-style-hat reference...flat-brimmed? Does he go one better and still leave the New Era (Buffalo-based company, by the way...not something to be too proud of though, since their working conditions in their factory leave something to be desired) sticker on the top, which seems to be all the rage for fitted baseball hats now?

As an aside, the best hats that I can think of belong to two relievers, one current and one former: Mike Timlin and John Wetteland. Those things are/were never, ever replaced. Guerrero's batting helmet is the hitter's equivalent. I'm sure it's easy to apply some foreign substances onto hats like that...maybe Julian Tavarez and Brandon Donnelley should have looked into it. Tavarez...that dude's hat had a pretty flat brim too, if I remember.

After all this focus on hat brims, the distinctive feature of the hats of Windsor and Reyes is probably something completely different...like, pulling the hat down low over his eyes or something. I need to be informed here...if Windsor repeats his 2006 MLB performance in 2007, his hat preference may be all he's remembered for.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

flat brim

and hat pulled down practically over his eyes.

go a google image search.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have loads od confidence in him.

Won more games in AAA than anyone last year.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

back in the day for the Buffalo Bisons...

mid-90's, so not too far back in the day, but back when I used to go to like 5 games a year, there was a starting pitcher named Joe Roa. You could probably baseballcube or baseball-reference him if you'd like...as for me, I'm just going to rely on memory and say that one year he was on an absolute W-L tear, something like 16-3.

Have you ever heard of Joe Roa?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not talking 'ever'.

I'm talking last year.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I know...

My point was just that racking up wins in AAA doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot...Joe Roa kicked around the majors for a little while after that, I think, but didn't land anywhere and had a short career. Wins are good if you have a rooting interest in the minor league team, as I did in the Bisons, but other stats are more important if your rooting interest is with the major league team that the minor leaguer is affiliated with.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair point. However...

..if you're going to bet on a kid to make it, leading all of AAA in wins isn't a bad indication of worth.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 11:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And its not as if his other numbers...

are bad. He was a pretty darn good minor league pitcher. The one thing that throws off some of his numbers is his unusually high BABIP, which I saw a recent study of saying that doesn't mean much when translating to the majors. A high BABIP in the minors is likely to go down, just like a major league pitcher with an unlucky year.

by SuperBean on Jan 23, 2007 11:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

was that a warm evening in

Baltimore, if I recall?

rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Jan 23, 2007 7:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

is that an esoteric reference/inside joke, or just a strange query?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

windsor, big league debut in baltimore?

rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Jan 23, 2007 8:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ah, ok

It seemed like you were asking more about the weather than anything else, so I was confused.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 10:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

my life is such, that i can remember

trifeling details like that. Where did I put my car keys? who knows.

rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Jan 24, 2007 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That...

or they don't really have any other choices.

Saarloos posted a 4.88 ERA and a 1.74 WHIP as a SP last year, if you thought he got lucky in 2005 he must have sold his soul to Satan last year.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

if they keep track of a DP/IP stat

(double plays per innings pitched, not some fucked up abbreviation for defense independent performance...anyway) which I'm sure they do, Saarloos must have won that category by a record margin last year.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

it also means

the a's don't have as much faith in santiago casilla as they did in jairo garcia.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

first time i've ever done this

QOTM nominee right there

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to second that nomination

www.myspace.com/sixto80

by Sixto on Jan 24, 2007 5:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I sure hope it does...

And with Beane's rave reviews of Gaudin from the past, I'm confident he's going to at least get a shot. When all is said and done, raw talent will always get extra opportunity to defy statistical deficiencies that may exist. Translated: saying Gaudin has the best stuff on the team outside Harden does not suggest another year of being the like 5th option out of the pen...it should ideally suggest being the 5th starter.

But, I still think we should trade a higher-end bullpen guy (ahem, Street)...look what Mike Gonzalez can net. Then Gaudin could close.

One more thing: is "that Dunn guy" going to even have a shot at making the MLB roster and thus affect Gaudin's status, even with Los Kirk gone? He's AAA filler, no?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Saarloos in the NL

is a middle of rotation starting pitcher.

With the pitching market what it is, I wonder
if the A's got back enough for Saarloos?

I hope Shafer is good, or else this trade
definitely looks better for the Reds in the
short term.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 12:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

No

Saarloos is not a middle of the rotation starter in the NL, and he might not be a middle of the rotation starter in the PCL. Saarloos is a nice guy who maximized his talent and got very lucky in 2005. He is very likely to get lit up in Cincinnati if he is used as a starter.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

he's underestimated

i remember a game against the indians in 2005
when they were the best team down the
stretch. Saarloos pitched a really good
game befuddling Hafner, Sizemore, Martinez,
Peralta and Crisp when these guys were all
in a groove. When he's on, he is pretty good
and really effective just doesnt blow you away
with a fastball.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

We should definitely base our personnel decisions on a guy having one good game. Tuffy Rhodes and Mark Whitten for the Hall of Fame!!!

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

one example

he was pretty good for the A's several times
as a starter over the last 2 years.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

almost every MLB starting pitcher

is pretty good several times over a couple years.

i guess they're all middle of the rotation starters in the NL. wait, the NL sucks, that might actually be true...

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeff Weaver

for the Angels was just horrible in the AL
and couldnt win a game to save his life.

Becomes a match winner for the Cards and
a steady middle of the rotation in the NL!

Couldnt resist that one at the expense of the
Halos:)

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, but Weaver...

Wasn't THAT much better for the Cards than he was for the Angels. His W/L looked a lot better due to some good run support, and then of course he had a few good playoff games, but during the regular season he stunk up the Cards nearly as badly as the Angels.

2006 Angels: 88 2/3IP, 114H, 21BB, 62K, 18HR, 1.52WHIP, 6.29ERA
2006 Cards: 83 1/3IP, 99H, 26BB, 45K, 16HR, 1.50WHIP, 5.19ERA

Pretty much all of his peripherals are worse(lower K/9 and higher BB/9), but his BABIP was a bit lower. Otherwise, he was the same crappy pitcher.

I think this trade is a nice deal, not a steal but I think it should help strengthen the pen. PECOTA already has Shafer posting better numbers than Loos next year, while 3 years younger and now a bit cheaper.

by SuperBean on Jan 23, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

We can drop our SPs with two more RPs!

<Damn! We could have kept Saarloos!>

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was having a little fun with you

Saarloos was amazingly effective in 2005. However, the fact he got lucky in 2005 does not make me want to rely on him in 2007. I'm glad that the A's have decided to let some of the 15-20 other pitchers in their system who are likely to better than Saarloos in 2007 get a chance. I will be cheering for Saarloos, however, he's a hell of a guy and gave his best effort for the A's.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Haren's got to be pissed

His skills as a barber are going to go to waste now

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He'll always find work.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

but...

there were a few frustrating starts thrown in
as well especially last year. I dont think he
was handled well last year being messsed around
between the starters role and bullpen duty
consistently.

i think he notched up a save and a win in the
same week last season.

saarloos was a battler and an underdog; one
of the misfits and an important part of
the puzzle with the a's.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

and while he may not have been the Holy Grail, he was just a step below...the A's liked him from the time he was drafted by the 'Stros, as Moneyball recounts.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard-hittin' Mark Whitten!

He's a coach in the Northwest League now. And he's an utter shitpile.

He's the one guy who you know not only will he have his pitcher throw at a guy's head, but he'll be first off the bench swinging if the kid charges the mound.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

once again, *Whiten

He was one of my favorite players, because I always like to root for talented underachievers/malcontents. Interesting update; didn't know he was both an underachiever AND a malcontent, or just a straight-up asshole.

NW League the league you cover?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I prefer Whitten...

..because Whiten makes me feel like SAM will come out of hiding and call me a racist again.

Whiten's an utter tool. He's the kind of guy that, when the Vancouver Canadians had a car dealership sponsor a between the innings promo, he actually kicked dirt at the prize car as it rolled by because it 'got in his way'.

Yeah, I'm an NWL guy. Here's hoping the much-anticipated end of the Arizona League comes so I can get an extra month of short season ball when it merges with the northern stuff.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

heh

skimmed over this one before...I thought the racist accusations were reserved for oaktoon

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No no.

You don't remember when I refered to Bonds as a Roid Monkey?

It's a pretty common term in steroid circles, but of course those who are quick to judge decided I was a racist and had to be announced as such - every. time. I posted.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 24, 2007 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Stubborn much?

Calling an African-American man a monkey is racially insensitive. That you persist in defending this language doesn't make you a racist...but it sure doesn't reflect well on you either.

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 24, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here we go again.

I wasn't calling him a 'monkey'. I was calling him a 'roid monkey'. Like calling a Frenchman a 'surrender monkey' - the emphasis is on the 'surrender', not the 'monkey'.

But you know this, and don't care. Which, really, reflects more poorly on you than me, since you're the one who can't hear the word 'monkey' without thinking, "black man".

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 25, 2007 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i think you're both bigots

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 25, 2007 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

WTF?

My only thought on this subject (which I didn't initiate) is that, knowing that a term is historically offensive to a group, it's insensitive to keep using it, regardless of the intent of the speaker. How holding that opinion makes me a bigot in your eyes is really baffling. This makes twice now you've tarred me with this brush. I had assumed the first was in jest, in the context of online debates and subsequent ballgame hang outs, but perhaps I should reconsider.

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 25, 2007 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you left

your sarcasm meter in Stomper's peanut bag.

by mikeA on Jan 25, 2007 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that's it, you're going on the bigot list

as a south asian, terms that are used to describe elephants are historically offensive to my group.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 25, 2007 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you don't eat 'Indian food'.

Or throw rice at weddings. Or hold spades when playing poker.

Monkeyball should really change his name. I mean, heck, doesn't he know it's a historically offensive term?

I do enjoy the irony of you finally understanding what it feels like for someone to insinuate something about you on the basis of nada, however.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 25, 2007 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

tuffy rhodes

funny you should mention him... I had him on my fantasy team that year (but not activated). So after the first week, he was leading the league in home runs, so I activated him. Big mistake.

by vk on Jan 23, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

*Whiten

Call me crazy, but in terms of pure talent, tools, what have you, he was one of the better players I ever saw. Raul Mondesi-type underachiever. Similar players, actually...best OF arms this side of Vlad, too. He put it all together in one amazing 4 home run, 12 RBI game for the Phils, both of which tied single-game records.

I remember seeing him in his short stint with the M's sitting in the CF bleachers at Fenway, playing LF with Griffey playing CF and Buhner in RF...with A-Rod at SS and Edgar at DH, that was a fun lineup to watch. Whiten hit one out that day over the monster, Griffey did the same, and A-Rod hit one to dead center not far from where we were. I don't even remember who won, but it was an entertaining game.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I can see where one would confuse the spelling...

seeing as it's a short i sound (I'd spell it phonetically, but I'd probably fuck that up...I don't know about yours, but my keyboard lacks upside-down e's), one would think there'd be two t's in the name. Like, I always thought "Weber" should be pronounced differently from "Webber", but they usually aren't...unless doing your best Deutsch pronunciations and referring to sociologist Max Vay-ber (Weber) or something.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

why go all the way back to 2005

just last september, saarloos struck out 11 indians (a very good hitting team) in just 5 innings. based on that, i wouldn't even trade him for felix hernandez.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What if the PTBNL is Adam Dunn?

Would you be more agreeable to parting with Saarloos then?

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i'd be happy

with the PTBNL being Scutaro's clone for the outfield.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

in that case i'd trade saarloos

because adam dunn can also strike out 11 times in 5 innings.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Shafer & Dunn

for

Saarloos and Perez?

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i'd do that in a heartbeat

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

depends on the heart rate

if it's Lance Armstrong's 37 beats per minute or whatever, that's too long of a wait.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

one thing Saarloos could do...

was own the Indians. That fluke-of-all-fluke 12 K's in 5 innings game he had last year came against that very same potent lineup.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

two things

Crisp excepted, Red Sox last year/this year...
Maybe that track record against the Indians was a driving force for Krivsky (Reds' GM) to do this trade; the Tribe is the interleague rival of the Reds.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They don't call that park...

...the Great American Launchpad for nothing. Hitters are going to light Saarloos up in Cinci even if he is a middle-of-the-rotation starter.

(Visiting Cubs fan)

by Loon from Left on Jan 23, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

hes a ground ball pitcher

and maybe that will ease the pain of the launching pad.

"Choosing between Milledge and Gomez is like choosing between Mozart and Beethoven" --NY Mets Message Boards

by apilgrim on Jan 23, 2007 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

low K, high GB pitchers have more value there than here.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bull Pen Cog, but when?

This guy is a pitcher in AA as of now. Is he ready? Saarloos is expensive, yeah, but he is an effective major leauger. Shafer is in AA with a loosing record. I agree with Oak1; seemingly better for the Reds in the short term.

by uiekazoo on Jan 23, 2007 12:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

you had a good point until

with a losing record.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

See scouting report

"...Shafer has posted a 14-16 record and a 2.59 ERA..."
If you are below .500 at AA, and then are gonna jump to the AL? Makes me uneasy.

by uiekazoo on Jan 23, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like...

Shafer was put in a lot of close games or tie games.

Please tell me the all-time records of Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, and Trevor Hoffman? Arguable, the best releivers in their time.

Nevermind:

Sutter: 68-71
Lee Smith: 71-92
Hoffman: 49-55

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm ...

I don't see how Fingers, Gossage, Eck and Rivera don't make that list over, frankly, any of those guys ...

(but you're right about W-L being a poor measure for relievers)

Read my latest articles

by devo on Jan 23, 2007 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just making the W/L arguement

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ok...

"arguably 3 of the best 7 relievers of their time"...and you can't really look at the W/L record of Eck due to his time as a starter

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

at this point

I don't think anyone can argue against Mariano Rivera being the greatest relief pitcher of all time.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

From indy at Red Reporter

I know at one point Shafer was 22 for 22 in save situations in AA last year before getting hurt, I'm assuming I'm not the only one that saw some hope for him, given he is still 24 years old.

"I guess more players lick themselves than are ever licked by an opposing team." ~ Connie Mack

by Flyin As on Jan 23, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

hurt?

that doesnt sound good.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hurt?

He will fit right in with the A's. They are probably waiting for the TBNL guy to come out of his coma before making the rest of the trade public.

by Larry E on Jan 23, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well then he will probably be the PTBDL'd

by theblackpearl on Jan 23, 2007 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Saarloos on MLB radio

in about 5 minutes...

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The Reds have been making a bunch

of terrible trades since their new GM took charge. So much so that I am shocked that we havn't tried to get Adam Dunn at all, now that his asking price has dropped.

But the Reds getting Saarloos makes a lot of sense for them. Great America Park is a HR Mecca, and having a guy who's talent is keeping the ball in the stadium is a good way to go.

I also have no idea why Colorado hasn't done everything they could to acquire Chad Bradford.

by Zonis on Jan 23, 2007 1:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Saarloos is valuable to Reds and AA

reliever is not equal value.

BB blew this one if the players to be named don't swing this deal to the A's favor.

Lets see the other two players then rush to judgement.

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

PTBNL's never swing the value.

They're filler.

Bottom line, someone had to make room. Saarloos was eating a million and hadn't been producing. The kid coming our way has potential. Fair trade.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not necessarily ...

it could be a high end prospect who is less than a year from having been drafted.

Read my latest articles

by devo on Jan 23, 2007 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Could be

but I doubt it. Saarloos, as a legitimate non-tender candidate, had no trade value and Krivsky would have to be stupid to give anything of value as a PTBNL. Krivsky has proven an ability to be stupid, but is he that stupid?

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Krivsky an idiot?

See Kearns and Lopez to Washington for a couple bullpen arms.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Krivsky has shown a propensity to be stupid in almost every trade and signing he has made, although he did temporarily make out like a bandit in the trades for Arroyo and Phillips. I would imagine that our list of PTBNL candidates is a pretty nondescript group, but we can always hope that Krivsky made another stupid trade.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Saarloos'

If our pitching had stayed healthy this coming Spring Training, Saarloos' would have had to be put on waivers. Too many pitchers w/ zero options.

Something is better than nothing. Plus, it frees up 1M.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

let's not forget

that our organization's idea of "nondescript" is surely a bit different from the Reds' idea...hopefully there's a steal being targeted there that doesn't have a hidden injury.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

See Jeremy Bonderman.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Jan 23, 2007 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Starters, even Saarloos

have more value than that OZ

How many Win Shares is Schafer?

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe that Jeremy Bonderman

was a PTBNL. Not too shabby.

I'm disappointed that Loos is gone. He was probably the only A's pitcher who'd been involved in a no-hitter.

Hi, I am closetasfan, and I am a NRAF, and an ANA

by closetasfan on Jan 23, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good PTBNLs

"However, some minor league PTBNLs who have turned out to be productive in the majors include Jeremy Bonderman, Scott Podsednik, Coco Crisp, Moises Alou, Jason Schmidt, and David Ortiz."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_to_be_named_later

by matthias on Jan 23, 2007 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, Liriano was an NDFA...

But if you held your breath waiting for another good one, you'd be dead before you got your wish.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I compiled a few things

about Shafer here

--Nebraska--

ThePastime

by Ryan Armbrust on Jan 23, 2007 1:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

filling a duke role?

is he that good? shafer and duke have similar minor league numbers, but duke's are mostly as a starter.

i was hoping you would look at any 07 projections for shafer and compare them to those for saarloos!

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 1:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

numbers for Shafer

ZiPS
5.17 ERA, 37:24 K:BB, 47.0 IP

PECOTA
4.63 ERA, 38:18 K:BB, 47.2 IP

CHONE
4.68 ERA, 46:25 K:BB, 54.0 IP

--Nebraska--

ThePastime

by Ryan Armbrust on Jan 23, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

PECOTA Projections

Shafer
22 games, 4 starts
4.63 era, 1.43 whip, 6.4/3.1 k/9

Saarloos
31 games, 10 starts
5.19 era, 1.58 whip, 3.8/3.3 k/9

PECOTA also thinks Shafer has considerably more upside, with a 90th percentile projection of a 2.9 era, compared to 3.6 for Loos.

Read my latest articles

by devo on Jan 23, 2007 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

k/9 should be

k/9:bb/9

Read my latest articles

by devo on Jan 23, 2007 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Duke Role?

I prefer godzilla roll

Oh yeah, uh...I was at the flower shop too. Yep. Getting drunk at the ol' flower shop. - Homer Simpson

by DCinWC on Jan 23, 2007 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So, playing devils advocate:

What happens if Harden goes down?

Haren
Cupcakes (no way he's going to the mets now!)
Loaiza
Kennedy?
Windsor?

What are we talking about here? It looks like if someone is impressive in Spring they might have a legit shot to make the rotation right away. I know I am not the only one convinced that Kennedy is going to make a seamless switch back to starting and post a sub-4 ERA.

Whew, if anything it appears that our margin for error just got smaller! Unless this is step one....

by CyZito on Jan 23, 2007 1:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Halsey or Gaudin

I'd imagine

--Nebraska--

ThePastime

by Ryan Armbrust on Jan 23, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Two names to inspire you.

Chad, Brad, this is the strike zone. Please get better aquainted this next season.

Oh yeah, uh...I was at the flower shop too. Yep. Getting drunk at the ol' flower shop. - Homer Simpson

by DCinWC on Jan 23, 2007 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Kennedy

has never proved himself as a starter. He's
always had problems the third time through
the lineup and blows up in the 5th and 6th
innings even if he is good early.

you're right about the depth -- I'm really
worried about Harden staying healthy this
year.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea,

Call me crazy but I don't really invision a rotation of

Haren
Loaiza
Kennedy
Blanton
Halsley

as too formidable. Or really enough to do anything much. If we had a productive offense, perhaps, but we don't. A LOT is riding on King Richard. A LOT!

by CyZito on Jan 23, 2007 1:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Halsley isn't some new pitcher I just acquired...

I mean Halsey.

by CyZito on Jan 23, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So you're assuming

that King Richard will be out all year?

Thanks for the positivity!

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

You might as well step on a crack and break Bobby Crosby's back while you're at it!

"Sometimes you gotta destroy a village to save it"- Alan Embree

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jan 23, 2007 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Easy there buddy...

Look at the first post. PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE

I don't think he's gonna be out all year. I don't think he's gonna make all his starts either. Either way, you should relax.

by CyZito on Jan 23, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

5th Starters

Not a lot of 5th Starters can roll through 5th / 6th innings w/o sporting a pretty high ERA.

That is why you use the bullpen earlier in 5th Starter Games...because you know you're #1 is starting the next game, and hopefully, you're bullpen won't get taxed the following day.

I think Kennedy is going to have a good year (Contract Year) - Top 10% of all 5th Starters in the MLB. I'm in the minority, though.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And Saarloos never blew up by the 3rd?

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 9:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"No way he's going to the Mets now"

Nobody would've predicted Hudson/Mulder on successive days.
Beane will trade anyone if the return value is greater.
The 2007 PECOTA projections for these guys are only one part of the equation - we have to look deeper.
Whether it starts next year, in '08, or in '09, we're getting 3 years of Shafer at 400K a pop.
That's something Beane values.

by notsellingjeans on Jan 23, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

IF Harden goes down?

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Jan 24, 2007 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I feel like someone stole my puppy.

Kettlecorn! Swishercorn!

by TurnTwo on Jan 23, 2007 1:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Or at least got it drunk and took advantage of it.

"I mean, hey, if they're going to bring the A's to Fremont, you might as well bring a Hooters." ~ some guy

by Poppy on Jan 23, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"Puppy" not

"Poppy"

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

BURN!

The inspection process may require that the handler take off the monkey's diaper as part of the visual inspection @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 23, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Kettlecorn! Swishercorn!

by TurnTwo on Jan 23, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I... don't get it

Saarloos never blew me away, but I always sort of expected him waiting in the wings... y'know, the friend of yours that has nothing better to do, so you know that if you're bored, you can always count them to be home. I can see how having a bunch of #6 pitchers (as was discussed here a while back) isn't exactly a huge advantage, so dealing Kirk makes some sense. But why for a AA reliever?

This off-season has redefined underwhelming thus far.

Zito: I would never bet against this team. First of all because it's against the rules...

by Joey C. on Jan 23, 2007 1:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

AA Relievers

Don't most organizations keep top prospects in AA, anyways. Look at most AAA bullpens - You'll see a bunch of failed starters, and AAAA bullpen pitchers.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Huston Street was a AA reliever once.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 23, 2007 9:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

The A's had a full 25 man with one pitcher too many. So a trade was in the offing and I'm not
surprised that it was Saarloos after how he
was handled last year.

But did they get back fair value? I would have
looked for a good promising starting prospect
who might have fit into the rotation in 2008.

Time will tell whether this trade was any good
for the A's or just worked as a way to clear
up a flexible spot on the 25 man roster.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 1:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure Billy whored out Saarloos

to every team that would listen. Unfortunately, soft-tossing swing pitchers aren't exactly the hottest market around. Billy didn't want to just non-tender Saarloos, so he offered him arbitration, signed him, and traded him for someone that may be of value late in 2007 or in 2008. If Shafer and the PTBNL never play for the A's it is still OK, we save $1.2 mil and give more talented pitchers a chance in 2007.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 23, 2007 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good Points

by Eck on Jan 23, 2007 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Speculation

With the stock-piling of more bullpen arms, does this mean that Duke or Calero may be headed somewhere for a starter or an outfielder?

by brenarlo on Jan 23, 2007 2:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

if this move is setting up a much bigger trade

then it better be a good one.

I dont see Calero or Duke being traded but
you never know with Beane.

by oak1 on Jan 23, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Oakland of Middle America

Saarloos, Harang, Hatteberg, and B. Crosby donning the red leggings in '07

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 23, 2007 2:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

B Crosby?

Bubba? Bing? Surely not Bobby

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Logical Trade

Kirk was a great guy and he came through when the A's really needed him. The Chad Harville-Kirk Saarloos trade may be Billly's best trade for getting value for nothing, but ...

Saarloos' peripheral numbers had gotten so bad that it's unrealistic to assume he would be as lucky in the win/ERA departments again. He was unlikely to be an average 5th starter/long reliever this year.

Shafer is 2 1/2 years younger, will cost $1 million less, has good control, a better strikeout rate and more upside than Loos Kirk.

Thanks for filling in and best of luck in the NL, Kirk. But this trade makes sense.

by Eck on Jan 23, 2007 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

yep...

You're right.

by brenarlo on Jan 23, 2007 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If I remember correctly

Quite a few people were mad at the time we got saarloos since hardville had had a nice spring.

Though that trade doesn't beat chad gaudin for Dustin Majewski

by J Rod on Jan 23, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

some prominent ANers wanted to keep harville

and trade duke!
i'd search for my "keep duke" comments, but i'm pretty sure that was AN 1.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that was back

when we didn't even have logins, we just made up names when we posted comments. Ah, the good old days...

Signatures? We don't need no stinking signatures.

by jubjub on Jan 23, 2007 2:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

back when we were all ...

... posters to be named later.

The inspection process may require that the handler take off the monkey's diaper as part of the visual inspection @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 23, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

that's a knee slapper-

"Ballykonme Style"

"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Jan 23, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

<slaps knee>

The inspection process may require that the handler take off the monkey's diaper as part of the visual inspection @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 23, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

More recently

I seem to remember that Saarloos was originally rumored to be involved in the discussions with LA for Milton Bradley, and most of us were relieved that instead we "only" gave up Ethier. Oops. (I'm still not convinced Ethier is for real, but he's got to be more valuable than Saarloos right now.)

In the stands the home crowd scatters For the turnstiles

by andeux on Jan 23, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

at the very least

ethier could have replaced kielty.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Beane's best Nothing for Something trade

is probably Billy Taylor for Isringhausen and Greg McMichael. Can anyone think of a better one?

by Philip Christy on Jan 24, 2007 12:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

you could argue for 3 deadline deals...

being better:

Ray Durham for Jon Adkins
Johnny Damon for free
Jermaine Dye for free

I think we traded Angel Berroa in there somewhere, and ex-2B-prospect Jose Ortiz wound up with the Rockies, but...Allard Baird isn't a GM in the big leagues anymore for a reason.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

TINSTAAFL may be true...

but one must concede that TISATAAFPWTIJDFTR (There is such a thing as a free player with the initials JD from the Royals) is also true.

And it has more a's in it than "Saarloos"

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Relief Pitching - Line of Succession

This move makes a lot of sense when looking at the time frame of 2009/2010. The A's have 2-3 more years of using Huston Street at an affordable rate. Beane is preparing for the day when Street is overvalued rather than undervalued. So, one year of AAA grooming for Shafer,2008/2009 setting up for the A's and then he could be Street's replacement.

Beane also saved $1M in 2007 and moved a player who didn't fit into to plans (Saarloos) to good home.

by scarr1 on Jan 23, 2007 2:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

good point

i think this is for the long term, schafer won't make the team until at least 08. Hard to imagine what ridiculous contract he will have coming his way then...

by reggiejax on Jan 23, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

street that is

by reggiejax on Jan 23, 2007 3:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Witasick or Marshal next?

Active Roster
Pitchers B/T Ht Wt DOB
55 Joe Blanton R/R 6-3 240 12/11/80
40 Rich Harden L/R 6-1 195 11/30/81
24 Dan Haren R/R 6-5 220 09/17/80
37 Joe Kennedy R/L 6-4 245 05/24/79
25 Esteban Loaiza R/R 6-3 215 12/31/71

20 Huston Street R/R 6-0 190 08/02/83
50 Kiko Calero R/R 6-1 200 01/09/75
58 J Duchscherer R/R 6-3 200 11/19/77
45 Jay Witasick R/R 6-4 240 08/28/72
57 Chad Gaudin R/R 5-11 165 03/24/83

41 Alan Embree L/L 6-2 190 01/23/70
52 Jay Marshall L/L 6-5 185 02/25/83
51 Brad Halsey L/L 6-1 185 02/14/81

==============

60 Shane Komine R/R 5-9 175 10/18/80
30 Dan Meyer R/L 6-3 220 07/03/81
49 Jason Windsor R/R 6-2 235 07/16/82

46 Sant. Casilla R/R 6-0 200 06/25/80
56 Scott Dunn R/R 6-3 200 05/23/78
62 Marcus McBeth R/R 6-2 195 08/23/80
47 Ron Flores L/L 5-11 200 08/09/79
-- David Shafer R/R 6-2 190 03/07/82

VORS = Value Over Replacement Suckitude

by Billy Ball 2005 on Jan 23, 2007 3:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

hopefully witasick

another salary to dump

"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 23, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re

Boy that Embree signing was dumb. I seriously seriously doubt the A's will keep Marshall. I see Witasick making the big club and giving way to McBeth in June.

by 31Boots on Jan 23, 2007 4:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

so...

You dislike both the Embree signing and the Saarloos trade (as you indicated in your comment below)? You may be the only person on the site here who can say that, or at least the only person who IS saying that. And I'm excluding people who didn't want to see Kirk traded for sentimental reasons, not because those feelings don't matter, but because they're not relevant to assessing the construction of the A's roster.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re

I dislike the Saarloos trade for sentimental reasons. I don't think the A's are capable of getting enough of his talent out to make him terribly useful.

by 31Boots on Jan 26, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re

Great trade, who'd we get?

Getting anything for Saarloos is miraculous. Soft tossers who walk more guys than they strikeout have zero value. The only reason he was passable with Oakland was because of the A's defense. With the Reds terrible defense behind him, Saarloos will implode. Halsey and Gaudin are far better candidates to start than he is, and like mentioned above, Saarloos would have more than likely been DFAd out of camp.

http://www.truebluela.com

by regfairfield on Jan 23, 2007 3:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

What

if the ptbn is witasuck?
THAT would deffinetly make this a fair trade.

by OaktownIn06 on Jan 23, 2007 3:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

4 Man Rotation?

Could anyone envision the A's going to a four-man rotation this year? They have more relief than they need, and three out of their four starters have a record of being durable, while the other (Harden) doesn't seem to get injured because of fatigue. Most Baseball Prospectus writers advocate the four-man rotation, and Bill James has even said a THREE-man rotation might make sense. A lot of people think that throwing in the four-man with an eighty-ninety pitch max is better for the pitchers than throwing in a five-man with a 110-115 pitch max. Wouldn't surprise me if the A's went this route.

by Nick86 on Jan 23, 2007 3:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

extremely doubtful

that they would consider a 4-manner esp. since they are going to be under the radar because of last year's injuries. Dusty Baker is twirling his toothpick mustache in between his thumb and index finger wondering if this would have worked in Chitown??

"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Jan 23, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

how many teams currently use a 4 man rotation?

by reggiejax on Jan 23, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

rhetorical question?

Not sure if you actually want an answer, but the answer is zero. Has been for a while.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

interesting idea, but i doubt the a's

will be trying it this year

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 23, 2007 3:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

great idea

and we have the perfect rubberarm to absorb the extra innings of relief... doh... we just traded him. Well I hear terry mulholland is available.

by panchopunch on Jan 23, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

with the market as it is...

it would be ingenius. But how could it not surprise you? Hell, the Royals went to a 6-man rotation more recently than anyone went to a 4-man. But if Beane and co had the nerve to even try it, I'd salute the outside-the-box thinking (or at least the willingness to accept others' outside-the-box thinking), regardless of the results. Kind of like the closer-by-committee experiment that failed the Red Sox...I respected their attempt.

That would be the ultimate ST announcement, now, wouldn't it?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Makes sense for the body but not for

competition:
19 games each vs LAAOLAIA, M's, StRangers mean they would get to know our pitchers too well.

In sports I believe a little mystery is good and with pitchers deception can be thERAs best friend, ...in the case of the A's pitchers out and out deceit is preferrable.

Name of the A's game is keep the hitters in the dark.

by A s Eh on Jan 23, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The way the A's perform...

or rather, don't perform, against pitchers they aren't familiar with would support your argument.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 10:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, Esp. the A's

LOVL

(VERY Loud!)

by A s Eh on Jan 24, 2007 6:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Angels

Name of the game for Lackey and Santana is to keep pitching "in the light" ...especially against the A's.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 24, 2007 8:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rev is a Saarloos/A's Fan:

He sponsors his page on Baseball Reference!!!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/saarlki01.shtml

http://www.silverandblackpride.com/

by saint on Jan 23, 2007 3:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

dude sponsors half our players on that site

He recently got called out for it on a diary at HH when some Angels' fan was looking up Calero's stats in an apparent attempt to argue that Calero was worse than both Speier AND Carrasco (how about better than neither...), and Rev had some explaining to do. Superstitious astrology believer that he is, he apparently went the A's-sponsoring route after his sponsorship of a few Angels' players didn't yield good results. I'd link to the diary, but I don't link to that site out of principle.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you don't go to that site...

...how do you know all about the diary?

by Philip Christy on Jan 24, 2007 12:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I said I don't link to the site...

I didn't say I don't visit it. Obviously I had to have visited it to read that diary. Truthfully, though, I don't think I'd been there since the early offseason. Lookout Landing is a much better read.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

*to HAVE read that diary

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 24, 2007 1:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

well at least his name won't b misspelled

as much on AN anymore. i never was much of a saarloos fan. he was handy to have around but ultimately the dude is barely a MLB pitcher. nevertheless, best of luck in CIN kirk.

"Where you start is not as important as where you finish."- Zig Ziglar

by bigelephant on Jan 23, 2007 3:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

A few years ago, I interviewed w/ Forst

Sort of an informational deal. Anyway, it happened to be the day that Saarloos was making his first start for us. After the interview, we were talking casually and I asked him if Saarloos was going to get lit up, or what? He laughed and said maybe.

My feeling is they squeezed a couple years of relative value out of a guy they had low expectations for in the first place. Now, they can flip him for another shot in the dark, albeit one with more "upside". I say good deal.

I'll try not to swear.

by Tony on Jan 23, 2007 3:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

heh

next time you're talking casually with David Forst, dial up a diary on it.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It was either pre-AN

or right around the very early stages. It was pretty dope. I got to go into his office, walked past BB's office (he was wearing shorts and his feet were on the desk...perfect), got a little face time.....and it went nowhere. It was still a fun day for me though. Even better was when we were setting the meeting up during spring training via phone, and he had to take a call from BB. He put his cell down, and put Billy on speaker, so I got to sit there and listen while they talked for a few minutes.

It all happened because I had set up the smae interview with Depo...about 3 days befor ehe got hired by the Dodgers. Forst was cool enough to honor it. Seemed like a really cool guy from the brief time I talked to him.

I'll try not to swear.

by Tony on Jan 23, 2007 10:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

sweet deal...

what were you interviewing for, PR or something?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just trying to get my foot in the door anywhere

He said it wasn't something they usually do, I kind of just caught a little luck landing the interview. It looked like I might get to hold the radar gun behind the screen, but that fell through. It is really hard to break into this business. I've been knocking on doors through networking I've done myself, and leads my Dad gave me (he was OPD back in the 80s and 90s, and came to know a lot of people on the team and in the front office). I've met a ton of super nice people who have a lot of good advice...just never any jobs for me, unfortunately.

I'll try not to swear.

by Tony on Jan 23, 2007 11:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

much more successful than McFood's DLD.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 4:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Mc Food's DLDs, like Saarloos ...

... squeeze lucky utility out of inferior peripherals.

The inspection process may require that the handler take off the monkey's diaper as part of the visual inspection @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 23, 2007 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ouch!

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 23, 2007 9:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Damn dirty ape!

But it's funny because it's truthy. :(

"...sometimes I can't tell the difference between baseball and magic."- salb918 "Ellie plowed into him like an evil, pink unicorn."-ArakSOT

by McFood on Jan 24, 2007 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

re

Bummer. My second favorite A behind Ellis. If Kirk could have his best stuff 5 out of 10 outings, instead of 1 out of 10 outings, he'd be a very good pitcher. I hope the Reds can get that out of him and I wish him great success. I don't know that I've seen a pitcher with top end stuff that good which he can't hardly ever access.

by 31Boots on Jan 23, 2007 4:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Just announced that Mike Dunleavy is the

PTBNL.

by nfadil4 on Jan 23, 2007 4:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm...

Baseball America is reporting that both sides will receive a PTBNL.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/news/263178.html

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 23, 2007 4:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Bullpen: the new undervalued comodity

Let's think BIG Picture here. Beane trades a starter for a reliever. The obvious is that we have too many nickels (#5 starters) and not enough dimes and quarters (our last 50 cent piece just signed with the Giants and now is looked upon as a Susan B. Anthony)!

If we look at the roster and prospects we have more relievers who could make an impact than blue chip starters. In anticipation of keeping our starters from going to deep in games the only way is decrease inning expectations from them from say 200 IP per year to 180-190. Who picks up the slack, our well stocked bullpen. Well, Saars wouldn't have been too bad as an innings eater, right? But would it have been worth it to have him sitting around making precious dough waiting for a starter to crash or to get someone with a higher potential and a cheaper price?

Voila, entrez vous Monsieur Shafer. Beane captures another live arm with a good minor league track record who may, as stated farther up in this post, offer relief down the road in place of Street. If La Russsa shortened the game by 1 inning with Eck, maybe it can be shortened further with our outstanding pen. Let's call Shafer then, "insurance".

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Jan 23, 2007 4:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Is the bullpen really undervalued?

After seeing how much the Orioles, Angels, Indians and Red Sox have spent on bullpen arms this season I think its not undervalued.

The main thing I wonder about is this guy is a reliever in the minors, most guys come up as SP and if that doesnt work out they try them in the bullpen and see what happens.

"Choosing between Milledge and Gomez is like choosing between Mozart and Beethoven" --NY Mets Message Boards

by apilgrim on Jan 23, 2007 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That Method

That method (Begin as a starter, then try them out in the bullpen) has been changing over the past 5 years. More and more "short relievers" are going higher in the draft. Immediately, Huston Street & Craig Hansen come to mind.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 23, 2007 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Joey Devine...

Royce Ring in 2002 to the White Sox allowing us to take Blanton (since traded to NYM, I believe)...Ryan Wagner I believe was a high pick

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

ignoring free agency...

where everything is overvalued, it's easier to stock up on effective cheap relievers than effective cheap starters.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

uh

using your coin analogy, we have a silver dollar at the top of the rotation.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

...or Susan B ANthony

I don't think I've ever seen one of those in my lfie, though...are they still in circulation? Or is the women's suffrage movement passe now?

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Harden's more like a Sacagawea dollar

Looks really cool when you see one, which is rare.

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 23, 2007 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

heh

sounds about right...I wonder what our equivalent of a wheat penny is (unusual, but isn't worth much)...not a pitcher, but, Jeremy Brown? His last name is also conveniently the color of copper, although wheat pennies, dating back to I think at least 1972, tend to be as green as they are brown.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That makes a lot of sense

particularly looking past 2007.

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 23, 2007 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Is our Bullpen Undervalued

Maybe not in the moneyball sense. But Beane is looking at a part of the staff that many teams overlook. Most people think of a staff in terms of their starters and closer. THe rest is "filler" our team has awesome filler. With that, we have "shortened" many games by placing a higer premium on relievers than perhaps other teams. THe traditional route of finding a releiver from the discarded starter pile is changed. Hence, pretty easy for Beane to go after this guy in terms of potentially short but also long term value.

His price is that of a wheat penny. That's where the undervalued commodity component comes into play. Free agent middle relievers receiving insightly amounts of money hasn't been deemed "sexy" enough by other clubs during the off-season...yet.

Harden is definitely a "sacagawea" vs being a "sack of something else", at least we aren't paying him like a gold dollar.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Jan 24, 2007 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sad. :-( I liked Kirk.

Of all of our 'Random Bullpen Fill-In Starter', he was the guy I trusted a fair amount to step in for longer periods (Gaudin has more potential, but damn, he scares me).

I was expecting him and his sweet mullet-lovin' heart to be traded, but I'm kinda surprised. A middle reliever is... odd. I assumed he'd be packaged with dudes for a position player, since he doesn't have huge value but pitching is at a pretty nice premium right now.

Huh. Weird.

I will miss that man's vowels.

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Jan 23, 2007 6:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

lol

we can always trade for David Aardsma. Only other "aa" I can think of, unless there's a little-known Canaan or something.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hammerin' Hank is still looking fit

"If your athame is a spork, you might be a Discordian."

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 23, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

unfortunately...

he might be forced come back to reclaim his HR record, a la Bernie Mac in that movie that came out a couple years ago where a statistical error was discovered, revealing he was actually short of the 3,000 hit mark he thought he'd reached. Did anyone actually see that? I just remember thinking the previews looked pretty dumb. Then again, that's my reaction to 99% of movie previews I see.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Starting for the A's, Justin Duchschererrrrrrrrrr!

Here's the plan: the minor leaguer goes into short relief to spell Street when he's on IR and to set him up otherwise, freeing Duke for a starting role. He'll get stretched out real good in the spring and be ready to start by Opening Day (which ain't that long from now.)

Duke is the A's second best pitcher after China Doll Harden, and he's wasted in the pen when the starting rotation is so weak.

The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Jan 23, 2007 7:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ah! Someone else wonders about that too

I never understood why Duke is not a starter. A guy who is valuable for 60 innings and was once a starter can be even more valuable for 175-200 innings. I feel like BB is holding him back.

I realize that it is valuable to have Duke in the role that he is in, but there is something weird about him being stuck in a relief role. As with other players, I wonder what it is BB/the A's know that we don't.

by Mark H on Jan 23, 2007 10:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

BB isn't holding him back

You know what's holding him back? His back.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 23, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's like this

Duke, as a reliever, is a known commodity: a great setup guy. That leaves one unknown: the fifth spot in the rotation. If Duke were to enter the rotation, that would be two unknowns: Duke as a starter, and whoever fills the spot left in the bullpen. Leaving Duke in the pen is the safer pick, as well as the one that's easier to make future plans around.

by Philip Christy on Jan 24, 2007 12:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

duke would do fine as a starter

if he could stay healthy. considering bad backs never really go away, i doubt it'll ever happen.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 9:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Oh, so you Kot-say.

"...sometimes I can't tell the difference between baseball and magic."- salb918 "Ellie plowed into him like an evil, pink unicorn."-ArakSOT

by McFood on Jan 24, 2007 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

DItto....Duke would be a #3 starter over Loaiza if

given the chance. In fact, I remember a quote from Duke last year in which he said his only wish (complaint) is that he would like to get a shot at being a starter in the rotation before his career is over. Does that sound like a perspective that new coach Geren who is supposed to do better with player morale, would pay attention to???
It is a good bet that Geren will give a healthy Duke a opportunity to compete for it in the spring training.

by Vegas Ace on Jan 24, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs