Where have you gone Jeremy Giambi, Left Fielder?
Baseball Prospectus has an excellent notebook today on how the Oakland Athletics have truly transformed their team from defensive mediocrity into one of the finest in baseball.
The A's have ranked eighth in defensive efficiency in all of baseball during Billy Beane's tenure as general manager. But if you break it down further, the A's were actually 21st from 98 through 2000. It's only from 2001 through 2005 that the team has really excelled from a defensive standpoint. The team ranks second in baseball during that time span.
BP credits a lot of this defensive upswing to the presence of Mark Ellis and breaks down how the A's will likely be saving $8.7 million over the length of Ellis' contract compared to his real value (if the option is picked up in 2008).
The funny thing is that everyone seemed to think that defense was inconsequential to the A's, probably due to Moneyball. People even charged that Beane's movement towards defense was only lip service, both on Internet sites and elsewhere.
But what people fail to realize repeatedly is that the goal is to always be ahead of the market. Thus, the A's pursued defensive improvement and young and cheap starting pitching, figuring that the combined value of these commodities could add up to a quick winner. By the way, it's also the reason the A's moved towards drafting high school pitchers. College players were suddenly the hot commodity, so perhaps you get better quality in looking elsewhere.
Any way, Paul Swydan, the author of the notebook concludes on a rather impressive note about Ellis:
He still has room for improvement? Wow.
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pitching
are our pitchers overrated because of the excellent defense behind them?
how would they do with average defense?
well, you're into Voros territory
But luckily it is a problem we do not have.
The beer league A's of 1998-2000 have gradually been replaced by a deep team that fields the bell exceptionally and has an interesting blend of power/finesse; ground ball/fly ball pitchers.
And has a deep reservoir of power hitters though lacking the one "huge" bat a la Giambi from 1999-2001.
It has been an extraordinary transformation, and the credit that should go to Beane and the organization has actually been delayed or diminished by the Moneyball reputation and controversy.
okay
Theoretically
http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=pitching&linesToDisplay=30&sortBy= fip&thenBy=fip&teamAbbr=OAK&leagueAbbr=AL&qualified=All&Submit=Submit
They don't lay it out in an easy to link to page, but BP's DERA doesn't show anywhere near the spread that HBT does.
And to answer your actual question ...
an interesting question ...
exactly
Not being a "stathead"....
I quote from the sacred scrolls (aka "Moneyball"), chapter 10, verses 125-26, wherein the prophet Voros McCracken states, "There is little if any difference among major league pitchers in their ability to prevent hits on balls hit into the field of play."
So, if I understand correctly, we can evaluate our pitchers independently of what the defense is doing (or not doing) behind them. Is this right?
by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not a stathead, by any stretch, either...
What seems to be the implication in these boards, however, is that good defense (as in, what the A's enjoy), will not only boost a pitcher's statistics beyond his "real" value, but accordingly boost his trade value to other teams.
So, only a true infidel....
Ok, so the market is still inefficient, but as Blez mentions, it is becoming less so every season. Where does that leave the Oakland A's? If Billy Beane is taking a serious look at high school pitchers (who very recently only elicited the throwing of chairs), will Pee-Wee leagues be the next stop for Oakland scouts?
Obviously, there will always be inefficiencies in markets, but often it seems the spread becomes so thin that it's no longer worth the risk. How inefficient does the baseball market need to be in order for Billy's "sh*t to work?"
by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Well, considering the open arms....
A more valid line of questioning might be: "How long before A) other organizations stop doing stupid things consistently? or B) Billy decides to retire out of a sense of lost challenge?"
I would guess...
B) as soon as the end of this season, after the A's win it all
by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
DIPS
Strikeouts
But I'd think the A's, with K's on the brain, would've produced more strikeout slingers like Johan Santana or Pedro Martinez.
Thank goodness for the 'D.'
AN Census
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 9, 2006 7:45 PM PST up reply actions
Well,
True...
I'll clarify: If the A's were focusing on a pitcher's ability to strike out hitters, you'd think the rotation would be loaded with strikeout pitchers by now. But it's apparently not that easy, so thank goodness for defense.
AN Census
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 10, 2006 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
also, remember that ...
Oh, crap.
Speaking of crap...
by kaweahkaweah on Feb 9, 2006 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
Ow
by ChickenStanley on Feb 9, 2006 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
"Um, Secretary Rice ..."
The value of defense
The A's were about .015 better than average in defensive efficiency last year. They had somewhere around 4300 balls in play (3*IP+H-HR-DP), so that means they turned around 65 more batted balls into outs than an average team. The average value of a play made vs. not made on a batted ball is somewhere around .80 runs (depending on position), so the defense saved around 50 runs compared to an average defense, or about .3 runs/game.
Of course, the effect is different on each pitcher. Saarloos, with a low strikeout rate and a high GB/FB ratio, was probably helped the most, while strikeout pitchers like Harden, Haren, and Street, or flyball pitchers (who typically have higher than average DERs behind them) like Zito would be helped the least.
Incidentally, as someone has mentioned here before, Loaiza was toward the top of the list of pitchers who were hurt the most by their defense last year. You can bet that Beane et al. were aware of that and know that in Oakland Loaiza could easily end up with better numbers even if he doesn't pitch quite as well.
Ask Tim Hudson...
by Bearcat on Feb 9, 2006 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
using DIPS
last year our dips era was 4.16 while our real era was 3.69 leading to a dips % of 1.13 which 3rd in all of the MLB behind the white sox (1.16) and St Louis (1.21).
I got this from ESPN and it says that the formula is not park independant.
Ellis no longer the weird data point
yes
I'm really curious (and will probably never know) how the A's proprietary system compares to UZR. I suspect they're very similar, as many of the players Beane has liked have had excellent UZR numbers: Ellis, Kotsay (until this year) and Payton in particular.
good question
I would have to think practically any play-by-play system is better than any non pxp system.
Ellis = Man-Crush
Park Adjustments
BPro actually ahs a park factor for DefEff, and (not surprisingly) the stadiums that most inflate DefEff house the teams at the top of the 2001-2005 list (Seattle, Oakland, Dodgers). So while the A's defense has certainly improved, it hasn't been as good as that ranking indicates.
As for DIPS and the A's, the A's are an ideal place for a pitcher like Saarloos. He has low BB/SO, and HR rates, which means he allows a ton of balls in play. Oakland has a very good defense and plays in a park that reduces BABIP--which makes BIP pitchers like Saarloos effective.
There has been much talk over the years of the A's taking advantage of the factors by having their pitcher's "pitch to contact" instead of trying to strike guys out. The evidence for this seemed to be the dropping strikeout rates of the Big 3--and their "pitching to contact" allowed them to throw fewer picthes and thus work deeper into games. The A's didn't seem to have that strategy last season, as their pitching staff ranked second in the American League in strikeouts.
Finally, people shouldn't take Voros' claims too seriously. His was a very important discovery in that most people never thought to separate pitcher only events (HR, BB, SO) from pitcher and defense events (balls in play). Instead of ignoring a pitcher's BABIP, one should heavily regress it instead. Pitchers like Zito clearly have an ability to reduce BABIP, and that skill is what makes Zito a good pitcher despite ordinary peripherals.
Here's the question then...
by Tyler Bleszinski on Feb 9, 2006 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Past DER
My guess? They were terrible defensively back then. I mean, look at that 1999 squad. You've got a 35 year old catcher, Giambi at 1B, a 40 year old 2B, a 21 year old Chavez, a 23 year old Tejada, an OF of Grieve/Christenson/Stairs, and Saenz coming off the bench with a 39 year old Raines. I wouldn't be surprised if every one of those guys was below average defensively.
Moneyball
by Chavez4Prez on Feb 9, 2006 3:53 PM PST reply actions
Moneyball
People seem to think that just because the A's were emphasizing OBP and DePo concluded that OBP was 3 times as important as SLG doesn't mean that they won't look at defense.
It's all about what's undervalued :)
Help me, Sergey Brin, you're my only hope!
Anyone? Bueller?
"Something-d-o-o economics...
"You wear too much eye makeup. My sister wears too much. People think she's a whore."
"They could be fascist anarchists,
thank you!
Agreed
re
Time for a quick ski break!
Nor Cal should root for little Daron on Sunday and watch a true warrior at the top of his game in a huge monied, international sport!
COME ON DARON! Then let's go A's next month.
by baseballbill on Feb 9, 2006 10:00 PM PST reply actions
High School Pitchers
In 20-20 hind sight I have to agree with some pundits. Beane did get lucky in having 3 great pitchers develop all together in Hudson, Zito, and Mulder. As well as Chavez, Giambi, and Tejada coming up in a similar time frame. The skill was in putting a good enough team together at the other positions while preparing the A's system to replace those parts in 2005 onward. A lesser GM would have gotten lucky that one time and not been looking 3-4 years ahead about what to do when those home grown players become over priced for the team. Instead, Beane has been preparing since 2001 to bring up new talent to replace the old. Now, it is Crosby, Swisher, Johnson, Harden, Ducscherer, Blanton. Street. While keeping Chavez and Ellis and adding Haren. And, Zito for at least one more year. Excluding Zito that is 10 good young players locked up for at least 3 years. In 2001 it was 6 and Giambi was not 3 years. Which with the increase in budget since 2001 and the extra 4 good and as a group relatively inexpensive players means there is more money for a Kotsay, Kendall, and Bradley, A bullpen; Calero, Kennedy, Witasick, Saarloos, and a bench Payton, Kielty, Scutaro, and Perez.
And, at the same time Beane is setting up the system to provide bodies in 2009. High School pitchers that can be developed by the A's system. Buck and Pennington may be needed in 2008-2009 for Kotsay and/or Ellis or Beane might decide to trade Crosby towards the end of his contract.
There are a slew of catchers which I am sure Beane is hoping for one of them to step up. At a minimum Melhuse will be leaving soon and in 2008 Kendall may not take the pay cut Beane will offer. Of course there will be trades as Beane takes advantage of opportunities, that could change everything.
I guess my point is that not only is Beane looking for bargains. He is laying the ground work for 5 years from now while at the same time setting up a team that can win today. While there are no guarantees players will pan out, if you are looking 5 years out you can draft 10 infielders, 20 pitchers, 10 outfielders, 4 catchers. In order to get the 2 infielders, 2 outfielders, 3 starters, 2 relievers, and 1 catcher to form the core of the big league team.

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