Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: LeBron James Laughs In Kevin Garnett's Face

Where have you gone Jeremy Giambi, Left Fielder?

Baseball Prospectus has an excellent notebook today on how the Oakland Athletics have truly transformed their team from defensive mediocrity into one of the finest in baseball.

The A's have ranked eighth in defensive efficiency in all of baseball during Billy Beane's tenure as general manager.  But if you break it down further, the A's were actually 21st from 98 through 2000.  It's only from 2001 through 2005 that the team has really excelled from a defensive standpoint.  The team ranks second in baseball during that time span.

BP credits a lot of this defensive upswing to the presence of Mark Ellis and breaks down how the A's will likely be saving $8.7 million over the length of Ellis' contract compared to his real value (if the option is picked up in 2008).

The funny thing is that everyone seemed to think that defense was inconsequential to the A's, probably due to Moneyball.  People even charged that Beane's movement towards defense was only lip service, both on Internet sites and elsewhere.

But what people fail to realize repeatedly is that the goal is to always be ahead of the market.  Thus, the A's pursued defensive improvement and young and cheap starting pitching, figuring that the combined value of these commodities could add up to a quick winner.  By the way, it's also the reason the A's moved towards drafting high school pitchers.  College players were suddenly the hot commodity, so perhaps you get better quality in looking elsewhere.

Any way, Paul Swydan, the author of the notebook concludes on a rather impressive note about Ellis:

And even though Ellis was the A's best player by VORP in 2005, he still projects to have above average UPSIDE over the next five seasons.

He still has room for improvement?  Wow.

Comment 44 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

pitching
questions:
are our pitchers overrated because of the excellent defense behind them?  
how would they do with average defense?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Feb 9, 2006 10:26 AM PST reply actions  

well, you're into Voros territory
Clearly Saarloos and, to a lesser extent, Blanton, would probably be most affected by a subpar defense.

But luckily it is a problem we do not have.

The beer league A's of 1998-2000 have gradually been replaced by a deep team that fields the bell exceptionally and has an interesting blend of power/finesse; ground ball/fly ball pitchers.  

And has a deep reservoir of power hitters though lacking the one "huge" bat a la Giambi from 1999-2001.

It has been an extraordinary transformation, and the credit that should go to Beane and the organization has actually been delayed or diminished by the Moneyball reputation and controversy.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Feb 9, 2006 10:37 AM PST up reply actions  

okay
i know defense matters.  i guess what i meant to ask was, can we quantify exactly how much worse our pitchers would be with an average defense.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Feb 9, 2006 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

And to answer your actual question ...
it does likely mean that Barry Zito and other A's FA pitchers are likely to be overvalued on the open market.

by devo on Feb 9, 2006 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

an interesting question ...
... by building a maximally efficient defense, we could potentially use that as a "valuation enhancer" for pitchers: acquire/develop mediocre-to-good pitchers <cough>Loaiza<cough> whose value will be artifically inflated by the defense, and then flip the pitchers after they establish a new "performance level" with the A's.
"Yay for drug adventures!" -- HollywoodOz @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 9, 2006 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

exactly
or maybe trade zito for a top prospect plus a pitcher who would actually be just as good or better.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Feb 9, 2006 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Not being a "stathead"....
....I'm confused (not an uncommon condition, unfortunately).

I quote from the sacred scrolls (aka "Moneyball"), chapter 10, verses 125-26, wherein the prophet Voros McCracken states, "There is little if any difference among major league pitchers in their ability to prevent hits on balls hit into the field of play."

So, if I understand correctly, we can evaluate our pitchers independently of what the defense is doing (or not doing) behind them.  Is this right?  

by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not a stathead, by any stretch, either...
But from what I recall, DIPS, as explained in Moneyball does indeed attempt to measure a pitcher sans the impact of the defense. By measuring BBs, Ks, and HRs, you get a general metric of how well the pitcher does things.

What seems to be the implication in these boards, however, is that good defense (as in, what the A's enjoy), will not only boost a pitcher's statistics beyond his "real" value, but accordingly boost his trade value to other teams.

by sarchasmic on Feb 9, 2006 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

So, only a true infidel....
...would ask, "What's next?"

Ok, so the market is still inefficient, but as Blez mentions, it is becoming less so every season.  Where does that leave the Oakland A's?  If Billy Beane is taking a serious look at high school pitchers (who very recently only elicited the throwing of chairs), will Pee-Wee leagues be the next stop for Oakland scouts?

Obviously, there will always be inefficiencies in markets, but often it seems the spread becomes so thin that it's no longer worth the risk.  How inefficient does the baseball market need to be in order for Billy's "sh*t to work?"

by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 12:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, considering the open arms....
...that baseball tends to embrace new ideas with, I don't think you have to worry about Billy's fecal matter losing its efficacy any time soon.

A more valid line of questioning might be: "How long before A) other organizations stop doing stupid things consistently? or B) Billy decides to retire out of a sense of lost challenge?"

by sarchasmic on Feb 9, 2006 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I would guess...
A) not until the Yankees run out of money

B) as soon as the end of this season, after the A's win it all

by Mission1929 on Feb 9, 2006 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

DIPS
The most interesting stat, to me, is how K/9 (and, I think, K/BB) predicts ERA better than ERA.

by Mark H on Feb 9, 2006 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Strikeouts
From what I recall from Moneyball, strikeout pitchers are valuable because they are more defense-independent (hence, easier to quantify). But who can be considered as a strikeout pitcher for the A's over the past five years? Barry Zito's the only one to get over 200 strikeouts in a season (205 in 2001). Harden could be a truly dominant strikeout pitcher.

But I'd think the A's, with K's on the brain, would've produced more strikeout slingers like Johan Santana or Pedro Martinez.

Thank goodness for the 'D.'

"(Insert favorite AN quote here.)" -- Some ANer
AN Census

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 9, 2006 7:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Well,
ANY team, would produce Pedros and Johans by the dozen if all it took was thinking about Ks.

by broaklyn on Feb 10, 2006 9:33 AM PST up reply actions  

True...
<thinks>...there -- that's one Roger Clemens. :P

I'll clarify: If the A's were focusing on a pitcher's ability to strike out hitters, you'd think the rotation would be loaded with strikeout pitchers by now. But it's apparently not that easy, so thank goodness for defense.

"(Insert favorite AN quote here.)" -- Some ANer
AN Census

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 10, 2006 1:28 PM PST up reply actions  

also, remember that ...
... visual depictions or representations of the the Prophet Voros are expressly forbidden.

Oh, crap.

"Yay for drug adventures!" -- HollywoodOz @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 9, 2006 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Speaking of crap...
Visual Depictions of the prophet Monkeyball taking a poop are even more strongly discouraged.
"Put a Milo on him." -Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 9, 2006 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Ow
I laughed so hard I snorted while drinking soda. Thanks.

by ChickenStanley on Feb 9, 2006 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

"Um, Secretary Rice ..."
"... the, um, Bonobo Ambassador has <ahem> requested a personal meeting with you ..."
Pet the soft fur on his back while you're cuddling him and be sure to "feed" him his banana when he gets hungry! @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 9, 2006 7:27 PM PST up reply actions  

The value of defense
A very rough calculation of how much the A's pitchers helped by the defense:

The A's were about .015 better than average in defensive efficiency last year. They had somewhere around 4300 balls in play (3*IP+H-HR-DP), so that means they turned around 65 more batted balls into outs than an average team. The average value of a play made vs. not made on a batted ball is somewhere around .80 runs (depending on position), so the defense saved around 50 runs compared to an average defense, or about .3 runs/game.

Of course, the effect is different on each pitcher. Saarloos, with a low strikeout rate and a high GB/FB ratio, was probably helped the most, while strikeout pitchers like Harden, Haren, and Street, or flyball pitchers (who typically have higher than average DERs behind them) like Zito would be helped the least.

Incidentally, as someone has mentioned here before, Loaiza was toward the top of the list of pitchers who were hurt the most by their defense last year. You can bet that Beane et al. were aware of that and know that in Oakland Loaiza could easily end up with better numbers even if he doesn't pitch quite as well.

Bright moments!

by andeux on Feb 9, 2006 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Ask Tim Hudson...
about strong defense to back you up.  I don't think there's any doubt he misses the A's awesome infield defense.

by Bearcat on Feb 9, 2006 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

using DIPS
dips is defense independant pitching

last year our dips era was 4.16 while our real era was 3.69 leading to a dips % of 1.13 which 3rd in all of the MLB behind the white sox (1.16) and St Louis (1.21).

I got this from ESPN and it says that the formula is not park independant.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=pitching&group=9&seasonType=2&typ e=type4&sort=DIPSERA&split=0&season=2005

"If you throw at someone's head, it's very dangerous, because in the head is the brain." -- Pudge Rodriguez

by niallmack on Feb 9, 2006 10:51 AM PST reply actions  

Ellis no longer the weird data point
BP used to (2003?) think Ellis was average and was confused why Beane was so high on his defense. They must have aligned defensive metrics.

by Apricot on Feb 9, 2006 11:33 AM PST reply actions  

yes
There is a comment in their 2004 book to that effect: that they rated him as merely average defensively, which, combined with his (at-the-time) subpar offense made him a marginal player, but that the A's had an internal metric that rated him as one of the best in the league. The BPro defensive ratings have clearly been revised since then, as they now show him as being well above average for 2003 (though still below average in his rookie year). Nate Silver also mentioned in his article yesterday that they're working on a play-by-play based system.

I'm really curious (and will probably never know) how the A's proprietary system compares to UZR. I suspect they're very similar, as many of the players Beane has liked have had excellent UZR numbers: Ellis, Kotsay (until this year) and Payton in particular.

Bright moments!

by andeux on Feb 9, 2006 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

good question
once you get a job crunching numbers for the Beanebrains, let us know.

I would have to think practically any play-by-play system is better than any non pxp system.

by Apricot on Feb 9, 2006 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

meaning to compare
A's system and BP, not A's vs UZR.

by Apricot on Feb 9, 2006 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Ellis = Man-Crush
A lot of Man-Crush going on the past couple weeks...no?
June 19th - June 21st, 2006 ** Oakland Athletics @ Colorado Rockies ** Lets Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Feb 9, 2006 12:51 PM PST reply actions  

Park Adjustments
While it's great to see the A's climb the DefEff charts, their overall ranking (and the ranking of several of the leaders) is misleading.  We all know about park factors, and the factor that affects Oakland's stadium the most is that it increases the chance that a batted ball will be turned into an out (which is what DefEff measures).  The huge foul ground means that the A's get an inordinant number of infield pop-outs, which inflate their DefEff.  

BPro actually ahs a park factor for DefEff, and (not surprisingly) the stadiums that most inflate DefEff house the teams at the top of the 2001-2005 list (Seattle, Oakland, Dodgers).  So while the A's defense has certainly improved, it hasn't been as good as that ranking indicates.

As for DIPS and the A's, the A's are an ideal place for a pitcher like Saarloos.  He has low BB/SO, and HR rates, which means he allows a ton of balls in play.  Oakland has a very good defense and plays in a park that reduces BABIP--which makes BIP pitchers like Saarloos effective.  

There has been much talk over the years of the A's taking advantage of the factors by having their pitcher's "pitch to contact" instead of trying to strike guys out.  The evidence for this seemed to be the dropping strikeout rates of the Big 3--and their "pitching to contact" allowed them to throw fewer picthes and thus work deeper into games.  The A's didn't seem to have that strategy last season, as their pitching staff ranked second in the American League in strikeouts.

Finally, people shouldn't take Voros' claims too seriously.  His was a very important discovery in that most people never thought to separate pitcher only events (HR, BB, SO) from pitcher and defense events (balls in play).  Instead of ignoring a pitcher's BABIP, one should heavily regress it instead.  Pitchers like Zito clearly have an ability to reduce BABIP, and that skill is what makes Zito a good pitcher despite ordinary peripherals.

by Danny on Feb 9, 2006 1:04 PM PST reply actions  

Here's the question then...
since the A's were playing in the same ballpark in 1998-2000, were they just that awful?  And have they improved that much with an assistance from the home ball park?

by Tyler Bleszinski on Feb 9, 2006 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Past DER
It's ahrd to know, since park factors measure the park relative to the rest of the league.  Even playing in the same park, the A's could have a different DER park factor if the league has changed enough.  

My guess?  They were terrible defensively back then.  I mean, look at that 1999 squad.  You've got a 35 year old catcher, Giambi at 1B, a 40 year old 2B, a 21 year old Chavez, a 23 year old Tejada, an OF of Grieve/Christenson/Stairs, and Saenz coming off the bench with a 39 year old Raines.  I wouldn't be surprised if every one of those guys was below average defensively.

by Danny on Feb 10, 2006 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Moneyball
I think the part of the book that gets overlooked by most people is the subline "The art of winning at an unfair game."  That is what Billy Beane is great at, he'll build a team based on what the market will give him cheaply.  There are a lot of different ways to win at baseball, and as long as we have Beane running the team, the A's may win in a few other ways during his tenure.  Eventually maybe the A's will be a fast team that slaps at the ball and steals a bunch of bases because basestealers will become undervalued, who knows?

by Chavez4Prez on Feb 9, 2006 3:53 PM PST reply actions  

Moneyball
Exactly.

People seem to think that just because the A's were emphasizing OBP and DePo concluded that OBP was 3 times as important as SLG doesn't mean that they won't look at defense.

It's all about what's undervalued :)

"Swinging and missing to me is like 'Jesus, what happened?'" Hatty

by Razr on Feb 9, 2006 8:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Help me, Sergey Brin, you're my only hope!
Speaking of MaEl's upside, I've been trying to find a comment I made (late- or post-season '05?) about Ellis potentially (at his ceiling) approaching a Jeff Kent-style level of offensive production. But no luck so far -- my Google kung fu is weak. Perhaps I dreamed it ...

Anyone? Bueller?

Pet the soft fur on his back while you're cuddling him and be sure to "feed" him his banana when he gets hungry! @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 9, 2006 8:07 PM PST reply actions  

"Something-d-o-o economics...
'Voodoo' economics."

"You wear too much eye makeup. My sister wears too much. People think she's a whore."

"Keep the juices going by jangling around gently as you move." - Satchel Paige

by McFood on Feb 9, 2006 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

"They could be fascist anarchists,
it still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car."

by broaklyn on Feb 10, 2006 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

thank you!
I'm feeling even more comfortable with my assessment now that BP is indicating MaEl's room for upside.
Pet the soft fur on his back while you're cuddling him and be sure to "feed" him his banana when he gets hungry! @('.')@

by monkeyball on Feb 10, 2006 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed
Some people believe its all about OBP yet, especially seeing what some writers are saying.  Looking at the article included in the Baseball Prospectus link makes me mad partially, but also glad people continue to think this way....keep doubting Billy Beane and we'll keep winning 90-100 games a year in various ways as the market allows.  Someday those people will see Moneyball isn't a bible and Billy Beane claiming himself to be the smartest man alive but an example of how a small market team took advantage of the undervalued to compete with big market teams for a few year period, a great model for business.  
Whatever Jose Canseco says must be true

by WiscoFan on Feb 9, 2006 8:10 PM PST reply actions  

re
I love Mark Ellis (my favorite player), but we shouldn't go overboard here.  I expect last year was a career year hitting, and he may drop a significant amount.  Good news is that he has room to drop and still be plenty good.  If he puts up 03 numbers, I'm happy.  If he puts up 03 numbers with an extra home run every month or two, I'm thrilled.

by 31Boots on Feb 9, 2006 8:11 PM PST reply actions  

Time for a quick ski break!
The only time off A'sball all year is when it's downhill ski time!!! The Sac Bee finally hi-lighted Daron Rahlves front page sports today and thank god, it's "Miller" er "Rhalves-Time"!

Nor Cal should root for little Daron on Sunday and watch a true warrior at the top of his game in a huge monied, international sport!

COME ON DARON! Then let's go A's next month.

by baseballbill on Feb 9, 2006 10:00 PM PST reply actions  

High School Pitchers
I am going to emphasize that the drafting of high school pitchers is also related to to current status of the big league team.  If there was a need to start replacing pitchers in 2008 we would have seen college pitchers. But, the confluence of a starting rotation that aside from Zito is locked up through at least 2008 and the greater value in high school pitchers results in the luxury of picking a bunch of high school pitchers with the goal of gettting 2-3 to the bigs by 2009-2010.  This suggests that we may see another large number of high school pitchers in the 2006 draft.

In 20-20 hind sight I have to agree with some pundits.  Beane did get lucky in having 3 great pitchers develop all together in Hudson, Zito, and Mulder. As well as Chavez, Giambi, and Tejada coming up in a similar time frame.  The skill was in putting a good enough team together at the other positions while preparing the A's system to replace those parts in 2005 onward.  A lesser GM would have gotten lucky that one time and not been looking 3-4 years ahead about what to do when those home grown players become over priced for the team.  Instead, Beane has been preparing since 2001 to bring up new talent to replace the old. Now, it is Crosby, Swisher, Johnson, Harden, Ducscherer, Blanton. Street.  While keeping Chavez and Ellis and adding Haren.  And, Zito for at least one more year. Excluding Zito that is 10 good young players locked up for at least 3 years. In 2001 it was 6 and Giambi was not 3 years.  Which with the increase in budget since 2001 and the extra 4 good and as a group relatively inexpensive players means there is more money for a Kotsay, Kendall, and Bradley,  A bullpen; Calero, Kennedy, Witasick, Saarloos,  and a bench Payton, Kielty, Scutaro, and Perez.

And, at the same time Beane is setting up the system to provide bodies in 2009.  High School pitchers that can be developed by the A's system. Buck and Pennington may be needed in 2008-2009 for Kotsay and/or Ellis or Beane might decide to trade Crosby towards the end of his contract.

There are a slew of catchers which I am sure Beane is hoping for one of them to step up.  At a minimum Melhuse will be leaving soon and in 2008 Kendall may not take the pay cut Beane will offer.  Of course there will be trades as Beane takes advantage of opportunities, that could change everything.

I guess my point is that not only is Beane looking for bargains.  He is laying the ground work for 5 years from now while at the same time setting up a team that can win today.  While there are no guarantees players will pan out, if you are looking 5 years out you can draft 10 infielders, 20 pitchers, 10 outfielders, 4 catchers. In order to get the 2 infielders, 2 outfielders, 3 starters, 2 relievers, and 1 catcher to form the core of the big league team.

by Donner on Feb 10, 2006 10:28 AM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
A's relocation option from a legal expert on the issue
Oakland_athletics_team_logo_photofile_small
Prospects 1Q Report

Recent FanPosts

100_1536_small
My new smarts on the Fanpost, and Mr. Offseason is born, and getting to know me
Small
GOG 2012 #18: The Twins have a shiny new park, and not much else
Small
Gotta Be Their Pitching
Hardly-boys_small
Minor League notes on Major League Day Off
Small
Cespedes Upate?
Small
The SF Warriors, the LA Raiders and the Oakland A's
Photo__11__small
COG #17 - Yankees vs. Athletics or Spank me! Spank me!
100_1536_small
What to do? What to do?
Small
Fans Should Buy the A's
Reg3_small
Tom Milone's Nickname

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Front Page Writers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Img_1877_small Billy Frijoles

Img_0653_small dwishinsky

Sb_nation1_small ahhall

Front Page Writers

Smiley_face_small gigglingone

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

60-minutes-clock_small cuppingmaster

Patpicturebucky2_small YonYonson

Img_3830_small David Fung

Moderators

Photofunia-5c770b_small coffee roaster

Denver_small Colorado Fan

Ls_logo100_small LoneStranger

Thumbs_up_small LongTimeFan

Marty_profile_in_green_small mrod

Babycomputergeek_small paris7

Img_0115_small Tutu-late