Why Piazza Makes Sense...And Why He Doesn't

by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 5, 2006 10:36 AM PST in News Comment 78 comments

Mike Piazza appears to be likely to become the A's new designated hitter if all the rumors are to be believed.

There are several reasons why I believe it would be a good move...and a few why I don't like it.

Piazza is a good hitter, but he's not Frank Thomas. He's an adequate replacement for Thomas and he should be more affordable. He slugged .500 last season overall and .564 away from the cavernous Petco Park. He's not the home run threat that Thomas is, but he's also not the injury risk that the Big Hurt was. Piazza's .500 slugging percentage for the season would've been second on the A's overall behind Frank Thomas. He also has a .379 career OBP even though it was only .342 last year.
Piazza can spell Kendall on occasion. Granted, you don't want Piazza behind the plate too often these days because of his third grader's arm, but putting him back there against teams like the Red Sox and Blue Jays who rarely try and steal bases isn't a bad thing. He can also fill in at first base on occasion if Dan Johnson winds up being unable to make the proper adjustments to become a regularly productive major league hitter.
Piazza isn't known to be a distraction in the clubhouse. I'm not saying that he is a good clubhouse guy because frankly, I never spent any time in a clubhouse with him. But by all accounts, he's been a good team guy. Perhaps when considering all the Bonds baggage, the A's front office has ultimately decided that it was better financially to have a good clubhouse guy who also happened to be a good hitter.

As for why I'd be concerned:

Piazza would be in a league that he's never been in before. He'd see a lot of new pitchers that he hasn't faced before. Unlike Frank Thomas, there would likely be an adjustment period for Piazza which could lead to Piazza starting out the season just as slowly as Thomas did last year. The difference was that Thomas was able to adjust pretty quickly probably because he had a lot of experience with ballparks. I know free agency makes this point a little less relevant, but I do think it had a significant impact on Jason Kendall when he first came to the A's.
I still think that the A's would likely need to take one more risk with a hitter like a Cliff Floyd because you can never have too many good hitters or depth. And frankly, if Piazza struggles, you're going to need someone to pick up the slack. You can't count on Chavez, Crosby, Ellis and Dan Johnson all having rebound seasons. Although chances are that you're going to see a couple of them rebound. I still think the A's need to cover themselves. Granted, Daric Barton could possibly be ready, but the A's need to have options in case they don't want to rush him. I just don't think that Piazza is still capable of carrying a team the way that Thomas did down the stretch last season. He's an excellent hitter and can be a good cleanup hitter, but he's not going to be a guy who will single-handedly kill the opponents like Thomas did. Piazza's OBP also hasn't been above .350 in two seasons and he's only averaged around 20 home runs the past three seasons.

Do I think the A's will stretch beyond Alan Embree and Piazza? It doesn't look like it right now. And that can be both good and a little frightening.

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Good post...

I have the same feelings, good and bad, on Piazza particularly the switching to a new league after being a NL-lifer (see Kotsay and Kendall stats for year 1 with the A's). I wonder how valid the Burrell rumor is? He would be my preference at DH is the Phillies were paying off a chunck of his bloated salary since he provides more pop. I still see Beane getting another OF, either through trade or FA - maybe a Trot Nixon signing which could be a decent LF platoon of Kielty/Nixon. If Beane dumps a salary like Kotsay for cheap talent that would give him some more ammo in FA, although my guess is that Beane will only be shopping in the bargain bins for good value this year - which is not a bad thing.

by Miggy on Dec 5, 2006 10:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Piazza is worth the risk

Piazza is more like Thomas than he is like Kendall or Kotsay. Thomas is one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, and Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher who has ever lived. I think Piazza has a big upside given that he won't be catching for us (unless Beane shocks the hell out of all of us and trades Kendall this offseason and installs Piazza at catcher.) Piazza could struggle with the transition, but I think his downside is an .825 OPS even in a down year. If the newfound freedom from catching helps him offesnively, I think he could come close to matching Thomas' OPS while looking less impressive in counting stats numbers.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 10:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Bench may want to talk to you about the best:

Offensive catcher in History line.

Piazza is top 5 though.

http://www.silverandblackpride.com/

by saint on Dec 5, 2006 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

gibson might argue too

. . .

"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."

by jacobo2u on Dec 5, 2006 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Josh Gibson's...

a free agent, right?

Just send him in to Dr. Frankenstein's office for a pre-signing physical, first.

"I ain't ever had a job. I just always played baseball."- former A's pitcher Satchel Paige

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Dec 5, 2006 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bench

is better when defense is considered, but I would take Piazza's offensive peak over anyone. Piazza's numbers are even more impressive when you consider that he never played in a hitters ballpark at any point in his career.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

what are you smoking?

Piazza top 5? Piazza is the best offensive catcher EVER!

In over 1000 less AB's Piazza has 30 more HR, only 85 less RBI, a BA thats .042 points higher, and a SLG thats .075 points higher.

Where is Bench superior to Piazza?

by methodrampage on Dec 5, 2006 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't we forgetting Terry Steinback?

by CyZito on Dec 5, 2006 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Who is closely related to Terry Steinbach?

by CyZito on Dec 5, 2006 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bench vs Piazza no contest.

Bench's best seasons barely top Piazza's career averages in terms of OPS, and in the end, Piazza'z numbers will greatly overwhelm Bench's.

Who is Gibson and why do I already hate the guy terribly?

With 21 bombs in his rookie year, look for 42 jacks in '06, and 105 round trippers by 2009. - Baseball-Reference.Com

by NicksDreamy on Dec 5, 2006 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Josh Gibson

Was a Negro Leagues player in the 1930s. He was an incredible hitter, and if he had the opportunity likely would be the greatest offensive catcher in MLB history. Alas, he never played a game in MLB, and that is why I said Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher who ever lived, because I forgot about him. Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher to play in MLB, I bet Gibson would have been better if he had been given the chance.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Josh Gibson

One of the two greatest hitters in the Negro Leagues (the other being Oscar Charleston), and possibly the greatest hitter in 20th-century organized baseball.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 5, 2006 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Josh Gibson

Probably the greatest Negro League player ever, and compared to Babe Ruth in respect to Raw Power and athletic ability.

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 11:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The greatest slugger that you've never heard of...

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

A Little Factoid

What famous pitcher for the St. Louis Cardinals that dominated the mound in the 60's was related to Josh Gibson?

That's right, Bob Gibson. Wow, what a family lineage.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Dec 5, 2006 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I still don't get it

Who else makes up the top 5? Is Crash Davis on that list too?

With 21 bombs in his rookie year, look for 42 jacks in '06, and 105 round trippers by 2009. - Baseball-Reference.Com

by NicksDreamy on Dec 5, 2006 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

IMHO

In no particular order:

Mike Piazza
Josh Gibson
Johnny Bench
Thurman Munson
Carlton Fisk

I would have taken Campanella over Fisk, but by no fault of Campanella, Fisk had a larger body of work. Munson, Fisk and Bench redefined the position in the 70's. Ivan Rodriguez, Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Michey Cochrane, Jorge Posada, Benito Santiago, Mike Scioscia and Ernie Lombardi were all pretty damn good too.

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 6:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

MicKey Cochrane

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank You

it's about time somebody pointed out Mickey. I'm not sure that his career numbers stack up too well, but he had a few seasons where he better than any catcher.

by kvn on Dec 5, 2006 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No Buck Ewing! Louis Santop! Katsuya Nomura!

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 6, 2006 12:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd been meaning to be tongue in cheek...

but you can't really be throwing buys like Scioscia and Santiago into the mix with guys like Fisk and Lombardi, let alone true greats.

I've got basically Piazza and Cochrane who are 1-2, and then Bench, Berra, Posada and I-Rod in no particular order after that (and I'm sure there's others).

Dude, I know, and have known who Josh Gibson is. The problem is like everything with the Negro Leagues, about 85% is myth and legend. That doesn't make it any less interesting for any fan of baseball, but it's hard for me to put Gibson up against Mickey Cochrane or others because while he certainly put up large numbers, he didn't do it against the best talent day after day and furthermore, he must have played, what 250 games a year? He certainly was in that class of players from those days who would have made it in MLB, and most likely would have done really well. Buuuuut unless you have access to anything like a box score, I'm not interested in debating his status amongst the all-time greats unless you're buying the six-pack.

With 21 bombs in his rookie year, look for 42 jacks in '06, and 105 round trippers by 2009. - Baseball-Reference.Com

by NicksDreamy on Dec 6, 2006 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You could make the arguement

that it was the white players in MLB who did not face the best talent day after day.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Dec 6, 2006 7:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You could make that argument

but why?

With 21 bombs in his rookie year, look for 42 jacks in '06, and 105 round trippers by 2009. - Baseball-Reference.Com

by NicksDreamy on Dec 7, 2006 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bill James

The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract came out in 2000 and ranks catchers:

Yogi Berra
Johnny Bench
Roy Campanella
Mickey Cochrane
Mike Piazza (still rising) Bill James says "probably the best hitting catcher ever to play the game."
Carlton Fisk
Bill Dickey
Gary Carter
Gabby Hartnett
Ted Simmons
Torre
Ivan Rodriguez (still playing, obviously)

Munson comes in at 14
Lombardi is #22

It's an awesome, huge book with rankings per every position 100 deep, with commentary, statistical analysis or anecdotes. It's also got a lot of other sections, but the ranking are cool.

Ernie Lombardi has one of the most interesting anecdotes in the book:
I believe it was following the MVP year that the defenses began to get really weird against him. The infielders, realizing that they had extra time against Ernie, had always played him deeper than they played anybody else. Now, however, they recalculated the risks, and backed up even more. Third basemen and shortstops played several feet back on the outfield grass, as deep as their throwing arms would permit them to play. Sometimes they played deeper than their arms would allow; if the ball was hit toward them they would get the ball and run in several steps before throwing. Ernie told Pee Wee Reese that "You had been in the league for five years before I realized that you weren't an outfielder." That Ernie could continue to hit .300 by firing bullets between five outfielders nourished his legend...

by H3liCat on Dec 7, 2006 2:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

who was....

12th on that list?

by Zabat on Dec 7, 2006 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Piazza

My first reaction to your comment on Piazza being the greatest offensive catcher ever was--you've got to be kidding! My mind was thinking Bench, Berra, Campanela, Carter, Cochrane, Dickey, Fisk, Harnett, Lombardi, etc. etc. But rather than first write and then check, I did check the stats, and--came to the conclusion, you are right. He is at the top of the catchers heap offensively in the history of major league baseball. That's pretty elite company!

by racodd on Dec 5, 2006 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Weird

Isn't it crazy? It's hard to believe that some the players we've watched in our generation are considered the greatest ever. It's always proper to give due respect to those who came before, but with a guy like Piazza, he's pretty much blown every past catcher's offensive numbers out the window. It's unbelievable to say we are watching the greatest hitting catcher to ever play in the Majors.

by baseb3383 on Dec 6, 2006 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

i agree

piazza would be good, but we also need floyd or another real bat. i wouldn't have minded having jose guillen at all, but i am a bit suprised he got as much money as he did. still likely to be a good value though. floyd would be good but i don't think he can be counted on for any more than 400 abs a year.

having chavez step up and knock 35 out with a 900 ops would be just huge this year. as would having crosby hit 20 with an 800 ops. and if swish can hit another 35 while bringing down his k's a bit we could have a decent offense. there is always the possiblilty that bradley stays healthy as well and knocks out 25 or 30 with a 900 ops.

i would also love to get rid of kotsay's contract. i love the fire the guy plays with but i didn't like the contract when we signed it and i don't like it now. he's simply not a good enough hitter for us to be paying him that much.

by Backspin on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I am all for Piazza:

I think that having him just DH is a dream come true for him.

His OBP may be falling because of the wear and tear on his body as much as his batspeed slowing.

Piazza is a GREAT clubhouse guy.

Nobody is likely to do what Big Frank did last year. He led the AL in RBI for the last two months.

Piazza will get you many more singles and doubles than Big Frank and will be our best option in the 4 spot.

I see Piazza hitting .290 with 25 HR and 100 RBI. I'll take that for 4-5 milayear.

http://www.silverandblackpride.com/

by saint on Dec 5, 2006 10:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

But...

Would you take it for 7.5 Million/Year? The rumored deal - 2 Years/15-Million. I'm not so sure that's a good deal.

I'm hoping it's just a 1-Year Deal, with a 2nd Year team/Player Option.

Why not platoon Barton/DJ/Swisher/Kielty @ 1B/LF/DH?

by Colorado Fan on Dec 5, 2006 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It is a horrible deal and will backfire

worst move since "Rhodes the closer"

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 5, 2006 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Only thing that could be worse than

Rhodes as closer would be oaktoon as GM.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Dec 5, 2006 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be fun to watch

if you were an Angels fan. I mean, every July he would blow up the team and start over again. Either that, or he would become so despondent he'd lock himself in his office for days, shuffle around eating ding-dongs and Cheetos in his underwear, and snap at his staff saying "We're doomed. OK? Can you get that through your thick skull?"

"[Frank's] a big battler. He's the mother of battleships."

-Nick Swisher

by kaweahkaweah on Dec 5, 2006 2:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

he did play much better than expected

last year. which is encouraging. but I don't see anyone thinking he will come close to replacing thomas, I guess the question is how much production loss will we see(BP says that it would have been a two win difference ((warp1 2.8-4.7))). pecota had piazza playing above his 90th percentile this year, which is always good if we are about to get him. It also says that 2007 will be his last year and that he should really suck. Im sure pecota will say something different about him in 2007. on a related side note, I can't wait for the new pecota to come out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."

by jacobo2u on Dec 5, 2006 10:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Which Thomas are we replacing?

If you mean last year's thomas, I doubt it. But it's certainly possible that piazza can match or beat how Thomas plays this year. Remember Thomas is always going to be a risk every year. Nobody knows how he'll hit. Maybe he'll be average. Maybe he'll be great again. Maybe the playoffs were a sign...

by tomoyo on Dec 5, 2006 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This year's Thomas is irrelevant

We have to replace last year's Thomas, because that is the one that got us to the playoffs despite the many offensive mediocrities we featured in 2006. One player is unlikely to replace 2006 Thomas, which means we have to improve other positions to make up for the loss of production at DH. Hopefully, Piazza can give us a good portion of Thomas 2006, and Chavez can make up the difference.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

we could dump Melhuse.

by methodrampage on Dec 5, 2006 11:14 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Or...

with Piazza in the mix, we could play him more often.

"I ain't ever had a job. I just always played baseball."- former A's pitcher Satchel Paige

by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Dec 5, 2006 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

why

would we want to?

by methodrampage on Dec 5, 2006 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Just bringing the good news

The A's look like they're going to get Piazza over the Rangers because (wait for it) they're going to offer him a 2 year contract. So not only do we get to have Piazza during his decline, we get him for 2 years of decline.

On the upside, it sounds like the A's aren't having any of his malarkey about playing backstop. The front office said he'd be 3rd on the depth chart behind Kendall and Melhuse... and maybe Melly gets some more time in the batter's box? I don't know. I don't mind Piazza, but I don't think he's the answer. C'mon, Billy.

Zito: I would never bet against this team. First of all because it's against the rules...

by Joey C. on Dec 5, 2006 11:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'd love to have Piazza

I think, short of a more long term like Burrell or something, that he's basically an ideal replacement for Thomas given this market.

What worries me, though, is that we aren't going beyond just Embree/Piazza. It means we're banking our season on Chavez/Crosby/Ellis/Bradley all improving, before you even consider that guys like Kendall and Kotsay and perhaps even Swish have a little regression in them. And then on top of that someone has to replace Zito (Joe Kennedy? Not sold on that idea.) It seems like we're doing an awful lot of shuffling just to be as good as we were last season, and with the Rangers and Angels around, we simply need more than that.

there's simply no club like the white elephant club

by walk off bunt on Dec 5, 2006 11:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Piazza at first?

I agree, Blez, that Piazza would be a very good option at DH (assuming he's willing to DH full-time), and an occasional backup at catcher. Playing him at 1B, however, is not an option at all.

Piazza has played 1,748 ML games -- only 70 of them at 1B, 68 of those in 2004, none in the last 2 seasons. The Piazza-at-1B saga was, in fact, one of the things that got Howe fired by the Mets. Howe refused to say that he was moving Piazza to 1st, but ended up playing him there a good deal anyway, making it a huge issue in the media, and then Piazza ended up getting pissed off because he didn't have enough time to practice playing the position and felt he looked like a fool out there (and, with 8 errors in 68 games, it's hard to argue with that).

Piazza would be about as reliable at first as Durazo was. I'll bet that if he signs with the A's, he won't even have a first-baseman's mitt in the dugout.

Floyd has been healthy 1 out of the last 4 seasons. If he's cheap, then the A's could sign him. But that achilles injury really messed with him last year, and he might be done.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 5, 2006 11:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Thomas couldn't replace Thomas

I think that even if we retained the big hurt he wouldn't be able to re-produce the year he had last year and could very easily get injured again. I think Piazza is more likely to be good (and healthy) for the next two years than Thomas and a two year deal is what it will take to land one of these guys.

I think we should trade Melhuse for a more usable part (Calero + Melhuse for Youklis?) and bring up Suzuki to learn from Piazza and Kendall.

"E-Lo pitched a whale of a ballgame," A's manager Ken Macha said.

by niallmack on Dec 5, 2006 11:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

I have heard this a lot, but Thomas has been a great hitter for a lot of years, and it would not surprise me if he puts up huge numbers in Toronto. Of course, it would also not surprise me if that ankle snapped in April 2007 and he never played again.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Trade Melhuse yes, bring up Suzuki no

As long as Kendall is starting, the 2nd string catcher is going to spend 99% of his time rotting on the bench. We don't want Suzuki (or Brown, or Powell, or any other prospect) doing that. Better to keep him in AAA getting regular at-bats.

Melhuse we're willing to let go stale, but if signing Piazza makes him expendable, that's a plus. I don't think Melhuse has a lot of trade value, but may have some. And I don't think he's happy here. Just as important as trade value is that it frees up a roster spot.

I think we should take advantage of the fact that Kendall wants to play every day and let Piazza be DH and backup catcher. On the off chance Kendall gets hurt (or suspended), if Piazza is already at DH we can still move him over, and then the pitcher has to hit a few times for the rest of that one game. No big deal. Then tomorrow we call Suzuki or whoever from Sacramento.

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Dec 5, 2006 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I like the Piazza move.

I would like to see one more, though. Forget Nixon or Floyd. Oakland should go for Reggie Sanders. Great team guy, tough player, and can hit. KC is shopping him.

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 11:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

thats not a bad idea

not bad at all.

by Backspin on Dec 5, 2006 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah. Lets find a guy that can hit!

Wotta concept! A DH that hits...

revolutionary.

Pizza is better for the clubhouse than Piazza.

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 5, 2006 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather have a lefty to platoon with Kielty

Nixon or Floyd or even Bonds work for me. Unfortunately it looks like the answer is D) None of the above.

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 6, 2006 12:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Piazza will be a bust

He is 38, his stats are eroding to no power at all and last year he had home stats of;
223 307 425 732

Piazza's 3 year splits show a fast ball hitter that has lost his bat speed:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=4928&type=batting3

If he wasn't SoCal BB would run away.

Bad, expensive, joke.

He got those stats in SD knowing he was on a FA year --- this is a waste of a roster spot and the salary that could be used in any number or productive ways.

What is even worse is the DENIAL that is sure to spin how Piazza can't hit because of the league change.

In July????????????????????????

BB slipped up on this one; Piazza don't cut it anymore.

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 5, 2006 12:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

and he can't hit righties!!!

2 years @ $15?

LOL

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 5, 2006 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Piazza and aging

Bad athletes deteriorate faster and worse than very good/great athletes.
By professional athlete standards, Piazza is not a very good athlete.
He will age faster than Thomas has, and like you guys have said, his splits are showing that already.
15 million is a lot of money for a guy who is guaranteed to contribute nothing in the field and might OPS only .800.

by notsellingjeans on Dec 5, 2006 12:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good points

Thomas was a gifted tight end at Auburn, and is far superior athletically to Piazza despite his injury. I am concerned about Piazza if we have to guarantee two years. I think he is a good risk for one year and could have a one year revival given his talent and the fact that he won't be catching for the first time in his career, but two years at 15 million is a lot to risk.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Visions of Eric Karros flash in my mind

Happens every time I think about Piazza becoming an A. I liked the idea when it was a one year deal, I don't like two years unless the the second one is a team controlled option.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Dec 5, 2006 1:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

I don't mind 2/15 if the second is a team option or a vesting option. Two years guaranteed is more of a risk than I would want.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the same thing everyone said when they

signed Frank last year.

by theblackpearl on Dec 5, 2006 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't remember that

People thought of Eric Karros when the A's were talking about Thomas?

Huh.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.

A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Dec 5, 2006 2:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

On the road last year

Piazza has a .936 OPS. He only played in 126 games because he was getting time off from the catcher position. It's reasonable to think if he wasn't playing in Petco, probably the worst hitters park in baseball(especially towards Piazza's power in right center) and wasn't playing cather that his stats would be much improved over what they actually were. He probably could've gotten 100 more ABs had he not been catching all season (and not getting rest days). That being said, he would projected to about 28 homers. In today's game that is well worth $7.5 mil. Sign him. We got lucky with Frank. There isn't an equivalent to the type of flyer the A's took on Frank on the market this year except for maybe Sammy Sosa...who I really don't want.

by RunRickeyRun on Dec 5, 2006 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Sosa Doesn't Even Compare to Frank

Sure Sosa had the big numbers for a few years, but Sosa's never been known as a great hitter. He used to have horrible patience and only a lot of power. Frank has had a pure history of great hitting. I don't think Sosa could adjust to his age and lack of performance enhancers.
Piazza on the other hand is unknown to have had any enhancements and has somehow held up at his advanced age. His last season was quite amazing and I think it's fully possible that with a lack of catching duties, he could be a pretty healthy DH who gives us 500+ ABs. I wonder how much the Coliseum would affect him, but as long as he could still provide decent power and good average/walks, he'd be a great fit for a couple years.

by tomoyo on Dec 5, 2006 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Piazza yes!

Plus Piazza is a lot more like Frank, these guys both have had long histories of amazing hitting. They're truly professionals in that sense with some out of this world years. Piazza himself should have had at least 2 MVP awards, but was jipped because of horrible voting.

by tomoyo on Dec 5, 2006 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Very true, but I think the NL-AL switch offsets it

Some recent examples:
-Soriano's #s jump greatly switching from Texas to Wash, despite much worse lineup protection and a pitcher's park.
-Adrian Beltre's regression in Seattle, despite still entering his physical prime.
-Jim Edmonds rocketing to stardom in his first three years in St. Louis, with improvements in his #s across the board.
-Bronson Arroyo going from middle-of-the-pack AL starter to one of the NL's best.
-Aaron Harang - can't hack it as A's 5thstarter...good enough to lead the NL in K's.
-The Adam Eaton-Chris Young trade: the guy who comes to the AL gets exposed, the one who goes to NL suddenly dominates.
-The Matt Clement disaster, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright...
-Hatteberg: posting the best numbers of his life in the twilight of his career.
-Rich Aurilla - exposed in Seattle in '04...good enough to start for the Giants in '07.
-Edgar Renteria #s with St. Louis, then Boston, then returning to form in Atlanta.
-Josh Beckett: rocked last year.
-Brandon Phillips - kicked to the curb by the Indians...above averaqe NL 2b with 17 bombs.
-Pedro Martinez/Clemens/Glavine/Petitte/numerous other formerly stellar pitchers: prolonging greatness/effectiveness by switching to, or staying in, the NL.

We should've learned this lesson the hard way already with Kendall's regression. An NL "star" isn't necessarily an AL star.
I realize a lot of those guys on the list above have more than just their league factoring into their upswing/downswing in performance. But I
listed that many guys on purpose - this isn't
just a coincidence, it's a legitimate phenomenon. And it needs to be considered in a Piazza signing.

Even with more ABs, he'll probably regress, like almost everybody who comes to the AL.

by notsellingjeans on Dec 5, 2006 2:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Other side of the coin

Thome - injured hacker to all around good power hitter with avg. when coming back to the AL
Mike Lowell - came back for a good season in the AL.
Abreu - Came over and hit better in the AL.
Vlad - no problem a few years ago.
Overbay - Had a career year in switch to AL
Grudzielanek - numbers almost exactly the same after switch
Luis Castillo - numbers about the same

I think there is individual reasons for why each guy fails or succeeds. To say that it's a trend is a cop out. Good hitters hit where ever they go. There are however, different types of hitters...reactionary hitters and overthinking hitters. Reactionary hitters will adjust much faster.

As far as the pitchers go. Of course they're going to do better in the NL, they get to face a pitcher every 9 batters and an inferior offensive league overall.

by RunRickeyRun on Dec 5, 2006 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks RunRickeyRun

I was going to do one of these posts but didn't get around to it. The idea that a player suddenly forgets to hit because he changes leagues is silly, as is the idea that the NL is some sort of inferior league in general. The best hitters are in the AL right now, which gives NL pitchers an advantage, but hitters in the NL are facing tough pitching and as a whole should not be expected to hit less in the AL. Interestingly, PECOTA is going to start putting a .25 ERA bump on pitchers going from NL to AL.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 5, 2006 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So many variables

that you can't call it a phenomenon. It's convenient for a lot of A's fans to say this because of one instance in Kendall. Kotsay cam over and put up career numbers for us his first year. Bob Welch and Dave Stewart did too.

by RunRickeyRun on Dec 5, 2006 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

Most of the players noted Play (ed) for the Cincinatti Reds. Phillips, Arroyo, Aurilia, Harang and Hatteberg. I think the reason that these guys performed so well was that there wasn't as much of a spotlight on them as opposed to where they came from, sans Hatteberg. Clemens has been pretty damn good in 1/2 seasons work over the last two years. It's a pretty small sample size and the NL does have inferior pitching and for the most part, smaller parks, and an easy out batting 9th, unless you're facing Dontrelle Willis. That being said, Piazza no longer has to squat for 9 and wear on those knees and throw with that bad shoulder. This should keep him healthy for the year. His batting average WILL go down, but that's a side effect of playing in Oakland. It would be hard to catch lightning in a bottle twice, but Piazza is better than just about every other option right now.

Cisco Kid was a friend of mine...Cisco Field, not so sure.

by haren4prez on Dec 5, 2006 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe the A's should just switch leagues...

...we'd have nothing BUT All-Stars! ;)

"So, whatever, Ozzie." -- Nick Swisher

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Dec 6, 2006 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

now that a good idea

billy should call up ol buddy boy and announce since he's finally getting a new stadium so his "team can be viable," he's also moving the team to the nl west.

by Backspin on Dec 6, 2006 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I like the idea of Piazza

I think he will do fine, and he won't clog up the bases as much as FT did. He is pretty good at hitting the ball to right center and in Oakland that ball will go out.
We need a right handed hitter in that slot, and he is the best of our options. I just hope we don't resign Payton, he swings at everything and doubt that he will come close to hitting .300 again with an OBP to match. I have a feeling Barton will make the team, I would like to see Kielty against all left handed pitchers, and Barton against right handed pitchers with Swisher bouncing between 1st and left field.

by china bob on Dec 5, 2006 4:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

When you think of the lineup

without Piazza, and when you look at who else is available among those the A's can afford, signing Piazza makes a lot more sense.

These moves have to be graded on a curve, as in: what are the alternatives. Piazza could be excellent, good, decent, poor, or bad. But the lineup, as is, will not make the playoffs, and good risk-reward options do not abound.

Put me in the "I'm for it" camp, but while adding Pepto Bismol to my next shopping list.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 5, 2006 5:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Put me in the

"I'm against it" camp, hold the pepto . Piazza is no Thomas. He has been declining steadily, not due to injury, simply due to skill deterioration. Expect the decline to continue. He was eaten alive by high quality pitching last year (I know, I know, the NL doesn't have alot of that) and feasted (if you can call it feating) on garbage. No thank you.

This is a game to be savored, not gulped. There's time to discuss everything between pitches or between innings. ~Bill Veeck

by Steve in Napa on Dec 5, 2006 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bitch.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 5, 2006 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Piazza

Is a dead fastball hitter, according to strike zone statistics (ESPN Insider link), and prefers the ball away, pretty clearly. I hope he finally switched to a lighter bat. He used to swing a gigantic bat <insert Meredith Vieira joke here>.

"Look its either batman or batman and robin not robin w/o batman robin isn't sh@#."--cchefz71

by jeepers on Dec 5, 2006 8:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

In fairness to Piazza,

you don't hit .362, .348, .346, .336, .328, and .324, for entire seasons if you can't hit the offspeed stuff.

On the other hand, the fact that he appears in the Baseball Encyclopedia between Adam Piatt and Rob Picciolo is not a good omen.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 5, 2006 8:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure he could

don't know if he still can.

"Look its either batman or batman and robin not robin w/o batman robin isn't sh@#."--cchefz71

by jeepers on Dec 6, 2006 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, Piazza's no frank Thomas, but...

if you give him a good look at your fastball, you better not throw it again.

by kvn on Dec 5, 2006 10:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Thomas = Higher Risk, Higher Reward

There is really no way to predict the 2007, 2008 seasons for these aging players, as there was no way to know what to expect in 2006. Having said that, Thomas has a higher natural ability to hit for power than Piazza.

I see the big difference for me is that Thomas seems more likely to a severe injury than Piazza. Given his injury history, Thomas could blow out his ankle and basically play 70 games over two years. Was I the only one who took a deep breath every time the big hurt took a mighty hack at an outside breaking ball and almost fell over?

I don't think Piazza is the answer, but we really need more than one additional hitter, so he's part of it.

by panchopunch on Dec 6, 2006 12:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs