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Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

"Ken Macha, 2006": A Horror Story, Written And Produced By Billy Beane


On Monday, Billy Beane swooped in heroically to save a disgruntled clubhouse from a problem that he had single-handedly created. The issue wasn't whether Ken Macha was a manager worthy of leading the Oakland A's. It had already been established in the Winter of 2005 that Macha was "good enough before and he's good enough now," and whether you loved, liked, disliked, or hated Macha's managerial style and decisions, the record reflects that he was "good enough" to be rehired for 2006, that his teams won an awful lot of games even through the challenges of youth and injury, and that his latest club advanced farther than any A's club had advanced since 1992.

So the why was the 2006 version of Ken Macha suddenly not "good enough" anymore, why was he unable to command the respect and appreciation of many of the same players who supported him in 2005? When Macha left last Winter, only to return a few days later, Billy Beane passed up the opportunity to say, "We're really glad to have him back," or "He has an excellent track record and we're glad things ultimately worked out." Instead, it became publicly known that Macha had been forced to crawl back to the same financial terms of the non-negotiable offer he had earlier refused, and Beane's choice of words to describe his "willingness" to "take Macha back" was that Macha had been "good enough before" and was "good enough" now.

In a baseball locker room, guys walk around naked together. Imagine if you walked by your boss and while he was giving you orders, and asking for your respect, you noticed that he had no testicles. And he's standing there, being all "in charge," and all you can think about is...Imagine that you are a boss and you are publicly humiliated by your boss, and you know that your employees have read all about it in the newspaper, and now you have to supervise guys whose contract negotiations actually yield them raises and they just heard that you're back because you were "good enough". How much respect would you expect to garner in your "clubhouse," and how much resentment would you carry to work with you each day?

Billy Beane chose not to offer Ken Macha a token $50,000 or $100,000 raise so that it would appear there had been a negotiation that caused the manager's return the second time. Instead, Beane, and these are the exact words I used at the time, "won the battle and lost the war," bringing back a humiliated and demoralized and disgruntled man whom the A's now, ironically, owe $2,000,000 for services that will never be rendered. Beane chose not to talk up his newly hired old manager, choosing a term, "good enough," that is every bit as inflammatory as the term "non-entity" Macha used to describe those on the DL. Who do you think was made to feel like a "non-entity" in 2006? The boss. By whom? His boss.

So if you're wondering how the same Ken Macha who seemed to be a "good enough" communicator, personality, and overall manager through 2005 could suddenly not be "good enough" with mostly the same players and actually more on-field success, the answer is simple: It was not the same Ken Macha. It was the neutered, resentful version that Beane crafted. Macha may never have been the best manager available, but he is the victim this time--the victim of an evolution that was so inevitable, anyone but the boss' boss could have seen it coming a mile away.

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Nico!
Best...diary...ever. Thanks!

This is such a logical and well researched piece of writing. I remember thinking when Macha was re-hired that it didn't sound like Beane was excited to have Macha there, but I figured it was no big deal because the story kind of faded away...until this week.

Billy Beane is great, but he does make mistakes. Of course, we all do. It almost makes me like the A's more, because they're not perfect; rather, they're a collection of real people who have emotions and sometimes they mess up.

"I have to stay kind of focused when I'm pitching." ~Barry Zito, 7/19/06

by rich @ Athletics Nation on Oct 20, 2006 8:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Okay, THAT explains it!
Back when I was a store manager, it was my lack of testicles that used to cause my employees to stare when I walked around naked at work...
Asked to sum up his season, Chavez said, "With a big red cross and a white flag."

by Poppy on Oct 20, 2006 8:33 AM PDT reply actions  

I have a feeling...
...they would really stare if you did have them.  Rather quizzically, too.
"So, whatever, Ozzie." -- Nick Swisher

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Oct 20, 2006 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

nowadays, they could just KILLFILE you
but jesus--rhyming is a pain in the ass! -- Rubin Sierra @('.')@

by monkeyball on Oct 20, 2006 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Very well said
Although he shouldn't take it out on his players with crappy communication because of his relationship with Beane.  It was his choice to come back too, suck it up and don't let it affect your relationship with the players.  Its what your paid to do.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on Oct 20, 2006 8:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Yeah, I'm down with this POV.
Dudes' getting a mill per year to manage a major league ballteam - wear it that you're not getting $1.4m.

And in all honesty, though I do think Macha let his annoyance at being forced to crawl back get to him, I don't agree that a single player, anywhere in that locker room, would have thought less of the boss because he wasn't earning an extra hundy G's.

Macha came back because he had no choice. And anyone who has had to move back home for a year, or work a job that's beneath their level of experience while waiting for another to come along, knows just how annoying and frustrating that can be.

If there was an error by Beane in all this, it was in offering Macha anything more than a single year deal. Because those extra two years were going to be more expensive than any raise Macha might have asked for, and as soon as the contract was inked, Macha set about manufacturing his own dismissal so that those two years would earn him a nice big profit.

Battle to Beane, war to Macha.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 20, 2006 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK
then tell the players to wear when they're called "non-entities."  They're making more than Macha, so by that logic, they should be more able to wear it.

by IndianaAsfan on Oct 20, 2006 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's a difference between making a mill..
...doing something you love and dealing with the fact that you didn't get a raise, and someone who is supposed to be your boss inferring to the press that you're a piece of shit.

I'll take one of those any day you offer it. The other? Not so much.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 20, 2006 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Grammar police
Beane implied, the press inferred.

by sslinger on Oct 20, 2006 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nico's point is valid--but Macha DID...
...get a substantial raise in his new contract over the predecessor.  It brought him up to "market," so Billy didn't give him more as a gesture.  Turned out to be penny-wise/pound foolish, as the raise would've been a boatload less than $2 million.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Oct 20, 2006 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bingo.....
I have no problems with a one year deal...but a THREE YEAR deal?  I don't understand BB's reasoning on that....
"hunting for fresh meat"

by Masaryk on Oct 20, 2006 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still,
Macha could have overcome this problem simply by being more communicative and social with his players.

You give Beane too much credit.  Joe Torre is another manager with a vocal and critical boss and it doesn't appear he lets that get in the way.

It's a beautiful day for baseball.

by As Man on Oct 20, 2006 8:37 AM PDT reply actions  

Torre illustrates the point of this diary
Steinbrenner is meddlesome and prone to tantrums.

But does he tell the media Torre is barely adequate, take all authority away from Torre, and gloat about it to the media?  No.  

Did Steinbrenner offer one of the lowest manager salaries in MLB and force Torre to grovel before him to get it?  No.  Torre makes several million per year and has never been underpaid.

You can gripe about many things with Steinbrenner, but Torre unquestionably has the ability to command respect from his players.  That is something that Beane denied to Macha.

by socal on Oct 20, 2006 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I refuse to give Beane the power
There were a few days there when the media was going crazy about Torre getting canned and Steinbrenner did nothing to stop it.

Hierarchy is a part of the sports world, as it is a part of American society in general.  We all have "bosses" in some way.  Ken's a big boy, he should be able to deal with it and not let it affect his relationship with his players.

This psychoanalyis is an excuse IMO.

It's a beautiful day for baseball.

by As Man on Oct 20, 2006 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Are you kidding?
Steinbrenner spent the best part of a week FEEDING the stories that Torre was gone.
"I am deeply disappointed at our being eliminated so early in the playoffs. This result is absolutely not acceptable to me nor to our great and loyal Yankee fans. I want to congratulate the Detroit Tigers organization and wish them well. Rest assured, we will go back to work immediately and try to right this sad failure and provide a championship for the Yankees, as is our goal every year."

He went on to tell reporters he was still trying to decide whether Joe Torre would be manager the following year.

Emasculating much?

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 20, 2006 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Torre was never made to grovel
Steinbrenner has every right to take a week to decide if he wants to bring Torre back. He had those discussions in private meetings, without questioning Torre's adequacy in the media.  When the decision was made, it was simply announced Torre would be back in 2007 and that was that.

Torre can go back on the field next year and still command the full respect of the players.  Beane did not allow Macha to do that.  Beane needs to do better for the next manager.

by socal on Oct 20, 2006 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree.
By telling the press, and the fans, and the players that Torre's results were disgraceful, and then sitting pat for a week while stories raged about Torre being gone, only saying that he was "yet to make a decision" - yet to make a decision? On bringing back Torre?

The reason he took his time thinking about it was to gauge the reaction from Yankee fans and the press, and the reaction was, "are you nuts?"

Then, and only then, could Torre have his job.

The mere fact that he even needed to think about it is a slap to the man's face. Add on all the PR bullshit that he was throwing about while he 'mulled it over', and if I were Torre, I would have told Steinbrenner to jam his job.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 20, 2006 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

well...
at least the players don't talk crap on Torre or Steinbrenner because they are true professionals.  Obviously it's much easier to be "professional" when you are making waaaaay more money than other players that possess your same skills.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 20, 2006 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not true...
Many Yanks trashed Torre, Sheffield among them and the late Corey Lidle which spurred the infamous Mike and the Dog call in 35 hours before his death....
"Christ, evidentally I played against Swisher in '02 when he was at OSU and Granderson when he was at Illinois-Chicago."

by compy75 on Oct 20, 2006 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Torre's mild reaction surprised me too...
He must be living the life in NY and afraid to lose his lifestyle to "not explore his options".

I remember Joe's "gut punched" expression; I think it will eat at him and this will be continued in 2007.

I think Torre "takes" George money over the hill and leaves George next spring to suffer with his "$1/4 Billion Loser".

Like you said the real clubhouse drama rarely comes to light in the media because the media need their jobs and like to eat too.

Torre looked like he had been stabbed in the back. This one leaves scars. Torre got the preview with Fowler's bad treatment in the media, I think Torre cuts this short and regroups. He is too good not to.

Too bad BB has the same rep, A's could really use him.

by A s Eh on Oct 20, 2006 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great points, Nico
We can hope that BB realizes he messed up this situation and will not insist that the next manager grovel before him like a neutered puppet.

BB and the A's are much better served with a manager who is respected by management and given real authority, so that he can command respect from the players.

by socal on Oct 20, 2006 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

Also,
Consider the $$$ Macha is making.  I wouldn't call that emasculated.
It's a beautiful day for baseball.

by As Man on Oct 20, 2006 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

No doubt. To paraphrase a great Yankee...
.."Are you kidding me? For that kind of money I'd put my face in your soup and blow."
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 20, 2006 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Spot on
What will be interesting to see is whether any manager working under Beane can command the same level of clubhouse respect as a manager working under a more traditional GM.  Macha died on his knees, as they say, when he capitulated in form and content to Billy's sense of adequacy.  But since it's even more widely believed today than ever before that a manager in the A's organization gets less autonomy than his 29 counterparts elsewhere, one has to wonder if an A's manager will always face a clubhouse respect obstacle that his peers do not.

There's a Raider parallel here as well; for different reasons and towards wildly different ends, the Raider head coach job is also unique in its level of emasculation w/r/t players' perceptions.

I threw that horseshoe into the weeds to see what luck can bring

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Oct 20, 2006 8:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Looking from the outside in I'd guess that Shell
did longtime friend Al a favor for "old times sake" when no one else, NO ONE ELSE, takes that job serious. Many who applied accepted less in positions taken elsewhere.

BB seems to be pointing the A's in a similar direction.

by A s Eh on Oct 20, 2006 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fact is the A's gave Macha more than anyone else
He was the one to wak away from the offer in the first place in search of a better one. He should be thankful the A's still had the offer on the table for him to come back to.

by sactownbull on Oct 20, 2006 8:49 AM PDT reply actions  

Lest we forget
Macha could have accepted the offer, which was not unreasonable, on the first go-round.  Then he wouldn't had to look pathetic when he came crawling back after Pittsburgh declined to hire him.
"The worst day on a ball field is better than the best day in any office." - David Wright

by kkdaz on Oct 20, 2006 9:09 AM PDT reply actions  

Yep, that sums it up.
Great piece.
Ho hum. Just another day for the OAKLAND ATHLETICS OF AWESOME! ~Kyli

by baseballgirl on Oct 20, 2006 9:10 AM PDT reply actions  

The only problem I have with all that
is the fact that I thought Macha was a horrible manager and I'm glad he's gone.

Regardless of whether BB emasculated Kenny or not, this should not affect his relationship with his players.  Professional sports are full of athletes essentially making more than their coaches.  That's not a recent development.  It's been that way for at least two decades in almost all sports.  It's just the way things are in sports these days.

Macha's job was essentially the same as that of a Longs Drugs manager.  He is (was) the liason between the employees and management.  He's in charge of handling the employees, regardless of whether his bosses yell at him, regardless of whether the employees yell at him.  It's part of the gig.

I hate to use him, but Joe Torre's an excellent example of this.  Yes, Steinbrenner's unreasonable and critical and treats Joe like dirt.  Does he let this affect his players?  No.  He stands as go-between.  It's part of his job.

Now let's say in your position as manager of the Longs Drugs, you:

  1.  Are constantly criticized by both sides of the equation.  
  2.  You see your best cashier has the flu and will not make it through the shift AND REFUSE TO CALL SOMEONE ELSE IN until the flu has gotten so bad, the cashier collapses, Longs customers are backed out the door and are starting to drift over to Payless.
  3.  Your employees feel so negatively about your performance as store manager, they go to the regional manager and complain.  Regularly.
The man was getting paid to do a job.  He wasn't doing it in the eyes of both his boss and his employees (and the thousands upon thousands of Longs fans that watch this store from the stands), and he lost his job.  He still gets paid.  He just doesn't got to come in and not say hi to Melhuse anymore.  Poor Kenny.
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 9:19 AM PDT reply actions  

There's a key difference
A Longs store manager has more say over who gets hours, and who gets hired or fired in the store.  Not quite the case with Macha.  If anything, Macha would be more like an assistant manager, where he has some say, but ultimately the power rests in Beane.  And if Beane doesn't have Macha's back ...

This was an interesting diary in that considering how good of a severence package Macha received (and that's pretty much what it is), there's definitely something to be said about Beane's approach of
*Managers are mostly irrelevant to the success of this team.
*If you think you deserve a raise for the team's success, think again.
*Well, you're good enough for us (since you're really irrelevant)
*We're happy to have him back (because that'll save me the work of searching hard for someone that'll put up with me)

Not exactly a huge vote of confidence.

by Rickeyfan on Oct 20, 2006 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

but
shouldn't the fact that they hired (and rehired) him to be the manager of their team and paid him in excess of a million per be enough of a vote of confidence?  

Are potential MLB managers so ego-fragile that they need constant hand-holding?  It isn't like we're talking about Steinbrenner criticizing Torre or anything.  We're talking about a less than orgasmic endorsement of the manager by the GM.  And, as it turns out, his job is to be critical of the manager.

I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, to continue with the analogy
The fact and manner of the way he was hired.

Macha - paid less yearly than Scoscia, Torre, Cox, Alou (!), Showalter

On par with Francona, Leyland, Gardenhire

Based on his performance in the regular season, Macha thought he was worthy of a raise (too high of one really, but still worthy of one).  Instead, Beane played hardball and went with no raise (helluva negotiator).

So, you're an assistant mgr @ Longs, maybe in charge of a major department.  The department has done well, for the most part because the store manager hires great employees.  You ask for a raise.  Store manager says 'no.  you can go.'  The only other store hiring picks someone else.  

You go back to Longs seeing if you can get your old position back at the same rate (ignore that the rate is $1M.  It's irrelevant.  Especially considering the going rate for other successful asst managers at other stores is higher)  The store manager says sure, because - it's not costing him any more money.  He doesn't have to train another assistant manager.  You know the employees already and sort of hae a rapport.  It's not really a vote of confidence.  It's more like the store manager took the past of least resistance (it was easiest for him at the time).  Your employees see this.  Their respect for you has dropped, because more or less, you came grovelling back for the job.  All the little things they didn't like about you before, but weren't so important ... well, now they felt they could complain directly to the store manager.  You try to keep the store successful, despite knowing that other assistant mgrs out there are getting paid more and their stores don't do as well.  You get a bit resentful, because the store mgr basically gives you very little credit for the store's success.

Beane's job might be to be critical of Macha, but it would've been appreciated, I think, if he said 'here's a token raise for a job well done.  Your next contract will also include a performance bonus for each level you reach ... 90 wins, division title, ALDS title, AL pennant, WS'
Instead, he implied 'Your reward is keeping your job.'

by Rickeyfan on Oct 20, 2006 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well put, Rickey Fan--
I think you really get where I'm coming from. And while it's all well and good to say "You shouldn't be resentful, you should be glad you have a job," or "you shouldn't let it affect your job performance," the reality is, people are human and that's what you can expect to have happen.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like Nico says, well put
The human effect is totally real, but difficult to quantify.
And, once there is bad blood in the workplace, its hard for it to ever really heal until one of the sides moves on.
Based on what came out, I think, in hindsight, that Beane screwed up several times in how he handled Macha.
1st, by not permitting him to apply for the Boston job, that was whack.
2nd, by treating him like a replaceable part, of no more importance than the 7th outfielder on the 40 man roster.
3rd, by just plain being an alpha male dick
4th, by not leaving wiggle room in the public announcements after they couldn't agree to terms.
he could have said: Ken and I are pretty far apart on contract terms, I have given him permission to explore other opportunities.
Not He's gone, I made a take it or leave it offer.
5th, by taking him back if he didn't really want him
6th, by not giving a face saving renegotiated offer, followed by a press conference: we've mutually decided that this is the best fit, we're happy to have Ken back, this has been a learning process, yadda yadda yaddd.
7th, by not staying the hell out of Macha's domain.

by connie mack on Oct 20, 2006 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Alpha male dick
I'm a huge fan of Billy Beane -- even more than most on AN, I suspect.  Still, if that Kawakami story about kicking Macha out of his own office is true, then Billy was a total dick that day.
"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Oct 21, 2006 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, people are human
but when they react based on all these emotional factors you all are claiming, REGARDLESS OF THE REASONS, they are, in essence, negatively affecting the process of a business.

I know we love the A's.  I love them as much as you all do--after all, here we are debating this firing a week afterward, well into our off-season.  But it is a business.  And regardless of why Macha was unhappy, and regardless of whether Beane created this self-fufilling prophecy where he dug the hole, covered and waited for Kenny to fall in, and regardless of why he was fired, the decision was made based on business.  And BB and Lew Wolff decided that Macha was wrong for their business.

Also, and I feel like a a-hole bleating on about this point, but even if BB was a complete backstabing jerk to Macha (which he was not), that's life too.  That happens, at the Longs, and at Burger king, and at Sear's, and at Gold's, and at Sysco, and at Wells Fargo, and at State Farm.  It's real.  It happens, and we all have to deal with it.  And so did Macha.  

I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

But the fact remains
he did not have to come back, no?  The reward was "you get your job back."  That was after two seasons of not going to the playoffs, regardless of circumstances.  Art "Rainman" Howe went three years in a row before he departed.  

No one was forcing Macha to come back into this situation.  And IF his position was weakened like you're claming it was (and I do not agree with that premise, but I'll get to that in a minute), surely he was intelligent enough and forward-thinking enough to realize the precarious situation he might find himself in, right?

The problem though is that I don't agree with your premise here (and, defacto, Nico's, I suppose).  Most of these guys are ballplayers and have played ball their entire life.  The structure in ball is you have a coach, and he's in charge.  He says where in the batting order you bat, when you play, what time practice starts, what the curfew is, all that stuff.  I don't think any sort of situation regarding Macha's contract or regarding Macha's job status affected the way that these guys interacted with him.  And IF it did, it's on Macha to correct the situation, not the players, not BB.

I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

But Leopold Bloom,
you're acting as if any time someone agrees to a contract, they have no reason for bitterness, resentment, complaint, etc. because after all they made the choice to sign the contract.

I know plenty of people whose job circumstances made them so angry or miserable that they "wanted to quit" or "wanted to give their boss a piece of their mind" or "wanted to say no to the latest offer," but reality got in the way and forced them to accept the bird in the hand.

And the fact that Macha was being relatively well-paid (compared to most of us) is also not relevant, because one's pride, dignity, feeling respected, and so on--all "worth" more than $2,000,000 at some level.

These are "heart" and "soul" matters, not "head" and "wallet" matters. And as long as humans are involved, it will always be this way.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

But
it's like the line from "Cinderella Man":

"My heart's for my family, Joe.  My brains and my balls are for business and this is business."

I understand what you're saying, and I think where we disagree is in the roles we're discussing.  Me and you are huge fans of this team.  We're emotionally invested in this product.  BB and Lew Wolff, I know they want to give us a winner.  But they are in business.  Even if it is something we're completely passionate about, stark-raving so sometimes.  

I know, I live and die with them too.  I still curse the name of Kirk Gibson.  I still tear up when I think about Rickey and Hendu and Carney and I felt personally betrayed by The Tool (aka JG) when he signed with the Evil Empire.  There's a warm spot in my heart for all these guys, past and present (with the possible exception of Kenny Rogers).

But it is a business.

I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

and for the record
My well-being is not for sale at any price.  this may explain my rather limited amount of funds available when I go to the ATM, but I don't have to deal with that a-hole of an assistant manager at Long's anymore...
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ultimately, I think you and I
share a lot more common ground than not. As emotionally invested as I am as a fan, though, I wear a different hat on AN--I really try to be fair, analytical, and objective, even in my thinking, so I don't think my perspective comes from emotion. I think I just feel that if you have a heart at home, you take it with you to work. You can try to lead with your head and your "business persona," and some are better at it than others. But your heart goes with you wherever you go, even when it might get in the way.

Tomorrow we'll discuss the spleen.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just as long as we
don't get to the gallbladder.

The doctors took mine earlier this year and refuse to give it back.

I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's strange--
On an unrelated note, I had lunch at the hospital recently and the chicken tasted funny.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

you weren't
visiting Skeeter after his wife "accidentally" shot him with the speargun, were you?
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can I just say it one more time?
My fingerprints were NOT found on that speargun.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your honor,
my client is a simple homemaker.  She likes to cook and clean and watch Bill Kurtis.  Surely, we won't hold it against her that she happens to have an affinity for underwater projectile launchers.  Surely, the fact that her husband's head was cleanly split open by a speargun is the ultimate coincidence...
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nico
I hate to be the wet blanket, but Beane said to me in a piece that ran on AN:
Well, first and foremost, I couldn't be more thrilled that he's back.

So ultimately he said those things that you claim he never said.

Course he also said:

There is a sense of relief with the team that's been put together that there is an experienced, accomplished guy who knows these players, who the players know, who they like and I would be a little bit uncomfortable to break somebody new in if that were the case.  So, I think that we're very fortunate to have Kenny back. We're both very excited about it."

I believe Beane was excited to have Macha back at the time, but I also think that the fashion in which Macha handled quite a few things this year put a big strain on an already strained relationship.

To me, you make it sound like Beane went from one day to the next in deciding this.  But 162 games plus seven games in the playoffs is a long time.  If you count when spring training started until when Macha was let go, that was nearly eight months.  A lot of stuff obviously happened behind the scenes that we aren't privy to.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Oct 20, 2006 9:20 AM PDT reply actions  

And undoubtedly, the things that happened
behind the scenes were a lot more in the "you're good enough, you're not good enough" range than in the "we're so glad you're here" range. It's nice that he was so effusive in his interview with you, but a lot of people read the Chronicle, too, and there was plenty of "damning with faint praise" at the time.

Leopold Bloom says you shouldn't take out your resentments and internal management issues out on your job and the employees. True, but human beings are, well, human, and that's what you can expect to happen 98.2% of the time. If you don't want that, hire a robot--hey wait, Billy would like that, huh? :-}

I think Beane is a terrific GM in almost every way. I also think he blew any chance of this partnership working the way it played out. Macha may have been a poor manager before--that's some people's opinion. But he was certainly "dead man walking" when he hit the clubhouse for the first time in February, 2006. It was not going to go well. And it didn't.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

It may have also been the fact
that I interviewed him long after it happened and there might have been some resentment immediately on Beane's behalf that Macha tried to play hard ass with the A's and had to come crawling back.

Regardless, Billy did say that he was thrilled to have Macha back.  Even if it wasn't immediately after he rehired him.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Oct 20, 2006 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

both of you are right
I'm wondering how the players perceived Beane's opinion of Macha's return: whether they thought Beane was thrilled, or whether they were influenced by his Chron quotes that Macha was "good enough."

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2006 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

my whole problem with this entire scenario
and particularly, the players' comments, is that most all ballplayers, when asked about "what the media said last night" (sic), is that the standard response is "I don't pay attention to what the sportswriters say."

Almost all the players' quotes about Macha (Kotsay's unavailability "puzzling", Melhuse/Harden's DL stints rendering them "non-entities", Zito's 2003 game against the Angels) were references to items written in the papers. Personally, I felt like all the players were looking for examples of Macha's lack of leadership and ended up pointing at the all-too-obvious media quotes as evidence to back their statements. Why not go to Macha and ask him yourself? Why not speak your mind to your manager?

It's easy to come the various inferences in this thread based on what we read from our local beat writers, but it never surfaced during the season - not once did we ever read about this kind of player dissent in "the best clubhouse of the MLB."

In fact I rather enjoyed listening to the pre-game Ken Macha Show quite a bit this season due to his unpretentious and willingness to share information about the various things going on behind the scenes from the previous game - his frankness was refreshing and, unless it was a losing, post-game interview, generally a very lively and informative interview. As Blez states, "We aren't privvy to a lot of behind-the-scenes information," these pre-games shows were the most informative 'behind the scenes' moments I would get all season.

Now that said, I don't think anyone disagrees with Beane's decision to fire him this year. Contract was too big, 4th best record in A's history, first post-season win in over 15 years... doesn't matter.

I thought Macha did better this year than any years past, where I might have frequented the ihatekenmacha blog more often than in 2006 - hell at one point they hadn't updated for a month because Macha hadn't really blown anything for a long time. You know the A's hadn't lost 4 games in a row since late June before the ALCS? It's all water under the bridge now, what's done is done.

HIRE WASH NOW!

by popcornjames on Oct 20, 2006 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Macha firing was not all about Beane...
If it were, why would Kendall jump in front of the media locomotive and claim otherwise?  Kendall had no obligation to say that Billy shouldn't be blamed for this move - but he said this very thing. When was the last time anyone from the A's clubhouse had "Billy's back" on controversial moves?  

Plus for those who still think the player feelings on Macha did not have a direct impact on his firing should think about the people who  needed to approve the move.  

Billy does not have $2 -3 million (new mgr will cost up to $1 million) of blanket authority to do what he wants, when he wants.  Fisher/Wolff needed to approve the move.  And Billy doesn't even have the balls to ask if the players hadn't revolted.  

"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 20, 2006 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chavvy and Zito
always have Billy's back when he makes a controversial trade or non-signing, like when Hudson and Mulder were traded away. Every time, their response is something like, "Wow, I didn't see this coming, but Billy has proven that he knows what he's doing, so I trust him."
"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Oct 20, 2006 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

well he deserves it...hence my motto
"The A's motto: E Pluribus Beanum. In Billy we trust." - Scott Ostler/SF Chronicle

by Suck My Moneyballs on Oct 20, 2006 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wrong translation
"E Pluribus Unum" means "out of many, one", so Scott Ostler's expression means "Beane's way or the highway."

Just had to point that out.

The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 21, 2006 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Telling
the national media he's good enough before, and good enough now, is a bit different than telling AN he's thrilled Macha is back.

by IndianaAsfan on Oct 20, 2006 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

congrats Nico
here is a can of beanie-wiennies
the home run that Eric Chavez did was tight. Sprots4Kids quote

by Satchmo22 on Oct 20, 2006 9:32 AM PDT reply actions  

NY Times was wrong
Great points.  Sheds an interesting light on the NY Times article on what a great job for the organization Beane did "negotiating" for his manager.  The Times thinks Beane uniquely understood the value the manager had to the club, but also the value the club had to the manager.  Yeah, Beane brought back a good manager at the price he was worth, but he may have ruined that manager in the process.  Maybe not such a successful negotiating/management technique after all.

In case anyone missed the article:

http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=FA0A16FE3E540C778CDDA90994DE404482

by juan on Oct 20, 2006 9:52 AM PDT reply actions  

I disagree
You're assuming that the change in Macha's demeanor (assuming there was a change) was related to the firing/hiring. There are several other possibilities, ranging from the idea that he couldn't handle the increased expectations (which seems to be what the players alluded to), to the idea that with a three-year contract in hand, he now felt like he could be as arrogant as he wanted to be and he'd get the money whether he was fired or not.

As Blez says, this is all speculation because only those involved really know what went on in the clubhouse. My guess is that at some point we will find out, maybe from Mychael Urban after the dust clears, or possibly from Michael Lewis if the Macha story folds into the "Underdogs" story in some way.

by richwol on Oct 20, 2006 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wayto go Nico....
You put a link to an article you have to pay to read...Did you forget, we're A's fans, one of the poorest teams in baseball.... Nice Diary though. And I agree.. HIRE WASHINGTON NOW!!!!!!!
Red Sox still suck! A's in '06

by Carney4ever on Oct 20, 2006 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not me, Carney4ever--
The only link I put was to my own article from last October, and I don't think anyone has ever paid anything to read anything I've ever written.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK, maybe not for your writing
But the valet parking fee at Chez Nico was way excessive.
I threw that horseshoe into the weeds to see what luck can bring

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Oct 20, 2006 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

That reminds me:
I'll get your car back to you as soon as I run  just a few more errands. Sorry.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Folks, Macha didn't have to accept
It says more about Macha and who he is rather than BB and who he is.  I constantly hear about how BB runs the show, and that Macha is just a pawn in the game, but he doesn't have to be emasculated if he doesn't want to.  It is hypocritical of him to accept the 3 year deal then be upset by it, what kind of guy is that?  Hell, he came out great, I guarantee you that he will never manage again, but he got millions of dollars for sitting one year in the dugout chewing gum.  The position that I took in my career is if I didn't like the way it was running I just left, and I certainly never took a job where I didn't feel comfortable with something.

by china bob on Oct 20, 2006 9:58 AM PDT reply actions  

thats a fair point,
but if you're 50 something years old with a chance to lock up $3million for the first time in your life, which provides security for your wife and kids, old mom etc, you might just take it and tell yourself you're going to do your best.
telling a boss to stick it and taking your chances finding another job is a lot easier when you have a more regular job, with a greater market of replacement jobs. there's only 4-8 mlb manager jobs available per year.
I don't blame him for giving it a shot.

by connie mack on Oct 20, 2006 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly.
which is exactly what he did by crawling back for the new contract and then begging to get fired. If he quit he would have had less than Jimenez' batting average.

Lew Wolff and Fisher's old man have definitely paid much more to make problems go away. Good riddance Kenny, you are the non-entity now.

by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 21, 2006 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Plausible scenario
2005:
Macha: Hi Pittsburgh, I'm ready to manage you club next year.
Pittsburgh: Only if you bring Billy Beane with you to call the shots.
Macha: I don't like that idea.
Pittsburgh: Get Lost!
Macha: Hi Lew. How are things in Oakland.
Lew Wolfe: O'k I guess. But we still need a manager for next season.
Macha: Even though I have some great opportunities, I always liked you and the A's.
Lew: I like you too Ken. Let me talk to Billy.
Lew: Billy, I just got a call from Ken and I really think that we should bring him back.
Billy: You must be joking!
Lew: I don't joke, I sign the checks.
Billy: OH SH!T. O'K
2006
Billy: Lew, this time stay off the phone and just sign the checks.
Lew: Yes sir.
Billy: (to himself) damn meddling old fool.

by lostin1965 on Oct 20, 2006 10:15 AM PDT reply actions  

Macha had the bad face
I don't think Ken Macha's cojones ever dropped enough to be cut off in the first place.  He was a weak manager, and had the bad face.

I'm totally cool with performance scouting rather than speculative scouting, but anyone who's watched enough A's games knows that Ken Macha has the bad face.  Don Juan Matus would have called it "Bad Tonal."  Wavy Gravy would have called it "Bad freakin' vibes, dude!"

Ron Washington has the good face.  He's also got the double whammy.  Hiring him will put a strong leader on the field, yet one who knows that he has to follow the organizational plan, or his arse is grass.  Hiring him will also keep him away from Texas.  Texas with Washington managing is a playoff contender, and we do not want Texas to be a playoff contender!

by K56 @ Athletics Nation on Oct 20, 2006 10:27 AM PDT reply actions  

But the hurt-the-rival theory...
... of managerial hiring could also be applied in favor of hiring Bud Black, if you believe that losing Black will hurt the LAAOA.

by socal on Oct 20, 2006 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

For that matter Texas could hire Macha
Wouldn't that be rich? It leaves the A's stuck with Wash (I like him personally and think he will be a great manager someday, but the A's don't seem to care about him).

And it creates all sorts of negative vibe energy in the A's organization.

Plus, Macha's even keel would be a good fit in the dustbowl at Arlington for the ups and downs of a long season.

by connie mack on Oct 21, 2006 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm digging that
old diary that Nico linked in his story, where grover says, "I really don't think Macha is going to lose the clubhouse" and Nico responds, "I don't believe it will greatly affect the clubhouse, especially since Macha already has the respect of his players."  At the time, I agreed with that sentiment wholeheartedly.

What a difference a year makes!!!

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 20, 2006 11:07 AM PDT reply actions  

i don't get it...
i thought anybody could see the problems coming from a mile away.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 20, 2006 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

You do me a disservice, sir!
What I actually said was: "But I really don't think Macha is going to lose the clubhouse. Howe didn't lose any credibility when Beane was set to let him walk, only to be talked into offering the extension by Stairs and Giambi."

You quoted me out of context. I said Macha wouldn't lose credibility because he left and came back. I also shared this gem: "The only way Macha loses respect in the dugout is if he sulks about his contract."

Which may have been what happened.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Oct 20, 2006 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Point is sal...
I make enough bonehead calls on my own, I don't need your help! ;)
Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Oct 20, 2006 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Geren on the bench like a Soviet
"Political Officer"  was probably not the best move either.

by calvin @ Athletics Nation on Oct 20, 2006 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Imagine how Charlie Manuel feels
Hard to feel secure as the Phillies manager under any circumstances; harder still with not one, not two, but three former managers now hired onto his staff (Art Howe, Davey Lopes, and Jimy Williams).
I threw that horseshoe into the weeds to see what luck can bring

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Oct 20, 2006 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

talk about the OLD boys network
"Having a vote for 'most clutch' baseball player is like having a vote for 'most real' monster." - Ken Tremendous

by ArakSOT on Oct 20, 2006 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

totally agree
Putting Geren on the bench is a bullshit move. so is rehiring all the coaches prior to looking for a manager, that immediately limits your chances of getting the best one.

by connie mack on Oct 21, 2006 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

But he was endorsed by Kotsay and Kendall, so...
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think
that might be the first time Gardenhire was referred to as multiple managers.  The guy's a bit overweight, but I didn't think he'd let himself go that much... ;)

by IndianaAsfan on Oct 20, 2006 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is this an M.B.A. chat room, or a baseball site?
As I unsuccessfully tried to say in my post and comments yesterday, why do we take more interest in Billy Beane's machiavellian issues and bring more creativity and resourcefullness to understanding them than we do to the problems of our friends, families, and neighbors . . . and why did the players have to out Macha on the front page? If you are going to throw around terms like "respect" and "fairness" and "support" then you need to show other people--conessions, the fans who were booted out of the third deck, the umpires who lost their jobs, etc--the same regard you are asking for. And how come Macha, whether he was bitter or not, seemed to me to actually be loyal to a fault to his players--although I don't have the benefit of insider knowledge--doing stuff like maintaining Chavez in the fifth spot even though he wasn't hitting for months . . . .

by froggiethegremlin on Oct 20, 2006 11:54 AM PDT reply actions  

We don't take
"more interest in Billy Beane's machiavellian issues and bring more creativity and resourcefullness to understanding them than we do to the problems of our friends, families, and neighbors".

Speaking for myself, I spend 13 hours a day on the problems of my friends, family, and neighbors, and only 11 hours a day on AN.

Sleep? What's your point?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Strange argument
Nico, I don't buy your argument at all. In the first place, it's just not right to say that things didn't "go well" this season. I'm not a fan of Macha's, and I think the A's would have done a little better without him, but he did manage a team that won the division and won its first playoff series in a decade despite losing its best pitcher and one of its best young players to injury for almost the entire season. If Beane's actions were as destructive as you say they were, where's the evidence on the field?

More important, I just don't believe that it was Billy's job to talk up Macha -- or give him a raise -- in order to convince the players that he was really great. The whole point of the Moneyball approach is that players (and managers) have a certain, measurable value, and that they shouldn't be paid more than they're worth. In fact, for the A's to win, Beane needs to pay players less than they're really worth. And the limitations of Oakland's budget mean that a lot of times we end up with players who are just "good enough," if that. We all know this. Jay Payton is good enough to start for the A's, but there are thirty outfielders in the majors (at least) that would give us more production than he would. Marco Scutaro certainly isn't good enough to be an everyday major-league shortstop, but we play him because we need to. These guys are professionals. They know what people's real skills are and aren't. Beane didn't sabotage Macha. He didn't slam him in the press. He just acknowledged what was true: given our other choices, he was good enough to manage this team at the time. Macha and the A's are professionals. That should have been enough for them (and given the way Oakland played this year, I suspect that for most of them, it was).

by Goodwin on Oct 20, 2006 12:04 PM PDT reply actions  

I can't believe all the praise for this diary
Blaming Beane for Macha's poor performance is ridiculous. If Macha was so humiliated and demoralized and disgruntled (how do you know this, anyway?), then he shouldn't have accepted the job.

Do you think Macha would say he wasn't able to do the job because Beane didn't provide enough public support or offer greater financial incentives? I doubt it.

by Reg on Oct 20, 2006 12:09 PM PDT reply actions  

I can't believe
that you referred to his "poor performance" when we had a very successful year and know the impossible position of working for BB.  I love BB (and not Macha) but credit must go to BB, Macha and the players.  They all did well.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 20, 2006 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can't believe you're ignoring
his inability to communicate effectively with his players. If a manager lacks this ability, I would consider his performance poor.

by Reg on Oct 21, 2006 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

More to it than Beane
It was pretty evident that something during the year happened to shift the confidence the team had in Macha.  It's one thing when you have a guy like T Long, who is a malcontent, diss you, but when you have quality guys like Kotsay, Zito, Kendall, and Chavez say questionable things about your leadership, if there is smoke there is fire.

Did these guys discount him after the whole blow up last winter?  I doubt it.  Did Macha have trouble getting over it?  Maybe.  I think we can all relate to being in a job and not being happy.  To be fair, none of us has to do press conferences and public things like that and can find ways to hide during those times.  Not so much so when you manage/coach a major sports team.

I was surprised to hear about the firing, but the articles that followed made it pretty clear that Beane did what had to be done.  Any corporate middle manager that lost his subordinates like Macha did would be dismissed as well, although probably not with the kind of golden parachute Macha got.

Will he get another chance?  Maybe.  I see it more likely he will get a shot in Japan before he gets a shot in MLB again.  He might be best served with a year away from the game to reflect.  He was never as good or as bad as has been said, and I wish him luck.

by titaniumaardvark on Oct 20, 2006 12:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Good points, titaniumaardvark,
and while I think you understand this, let me clarify that I never said Macha was a great manager before 2006, or that he didn't need to fired after 2006, or that he failed to pilot the team generally to success.

Any of those can be true or false, and my premise can still be equally valid.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Realistically. The players cited all have
thier own unknown motivations just as you, I, Beane, or Macha.
  • Chavez we know has a history as the most ardent Beane backer on the A's
  • Kendall was calling for Beane to hire his Dad as A's mgr in articles intended to announce the release. (He always has someone for BB to hire)
  • Kotsay and Zito probably have two totally different perspectives.
Like you, I accept it as time for change. But I am also surprised by some of the character cameos coming to light.

<Removes pedestals>

by A s Eh on Oct 20, 2006 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not that I knew him
personally before, or after, he (allegedly) made the comments attributed to him (supposedly accurately), but...My opinion of Mark Kotsay has changed more than a little following the recent events. Oh well. And it could change back. But, oh well.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

macha has always been terrible
he was a horrible bench coach and an even worse manager. i dont know why any of you have ever liked him. i tried to see some good but there just isnt any. he doesnt know much of anything about managing or baseball. i hope no other team in any form of baseball picks him up.

by Rx31 on Oct 20, 2006 12:16 PM PDT reply actions  

I hope it's a direct rival of ours ;)
Ho hum. Just another day for the OAKLAND ATHLETICS OF AWESOME! ~Kyli

by baseballgirl on Oct 20, 2006 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

sooo.... the angels?
bud black for macha?

i think thats fair.

by digsthelongball on Oct 20, 2006 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Macha - Bad Leader
Macha is similar to the Great Offensive Coordinator or Great Defensive Coordinator who can't take it to the next level to Coordinate an entire team.

Examples:

Dave "Pornstash" Wannstedt
Ray Rhodes
Norv Turner

Macha is better suited as a bullpen coach / Bench Coach.

By the way, what happens to Curt Young and Gerald Perry through all of this?  Is it automatically assumed that they'll keep their jobs?

COME ON, OAKLAND, COME ON!

by Colorado Fan on Oct 20, 2006 12:32 PM PDT reply actions  

A's said all coached will be retained.
Roles may change depending on the managerial hire.
"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 20, 2006 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree
I don't think its been proven whether Macha is a good or bad manager. He still hasn't had the right opportunity.  I think he would be a good manager on a bad team with young pitching like Kansas City or Tampa Bay.

by connie mack on Oct 20, 2006 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

different perspective on Macha firing . . .
If you would like another very knowledgeable viewpoint, go to http://www.loveofthegameproductions.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1326

scroll down to the ninth (9) comment and read what Marty Lurie has to say . . .

by froggiethegremlin on Oct 20, 2006 1:08 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks
for that link.  ML's perspective is an interesting one (and most likely more informed than most of us) and reminds us that this, like most issues, is not black and white, cut and dry.
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Since we were the loser in the ALCS
doesn't that mean Macha is supposed to manage the AL in the all-star game next year?
"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Oct 20, 2006 1:36 PM PDT reply actions  

No, that's the winner of the LCS.
So, no, Chavvy won't make the AS team next year, either.  I do wonder what happens when the LCS-winning manager is fired.  Does the new manager of the pennant-winner get the ASG, or does the old manager get it whether or not he is working as a manager?
Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 20, 2006 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

it happened in '65
Yankees fired Yogi Berra and hired the manager of the Cards who beat them in the WS, Johnny Keane. Not surprisingly, neither team was any good in '65. As I recall, the commissioner picked the manager of both ASG teams.

by vk on Oct 20, 2006 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting question.
When Dusty Baker left the Giants after the 2002 season, it wasn't really an issue since he stayed in the NL--they just let him manage anyway (and he left, wasn't fired).  But I guess it could come up with LaRussa.
"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 20, 2006 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm
For some reason, I was thinking it was the second-place guy in each league, not the first-place guy.  If it's the first-place guy, then the World Series winner is one of them, and I was thinking he's not.

Am I getting mixed up with the NFL Pro Bowl maybe?

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Oct 20, 2006 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Boring
I'm tired of Ken Macha and this whole soap opera about whether he should have been fired or not. We all know he wasn't much of a manager, and we also know that a truly creative manager who juggles the lineup day-by-day to give the hot hand a chance to excel is going to clash with Beane.

So what are the poor A's to do?

Compare the A's organization - manager, coaches, and GM - to Tigger. Which one is more functional, better at what it does, more efficient at exploiting the talent (in a good way), and more a winner. Tigger's successful organization isn't a fluke, the same guys did the same thing for Florida. So what does that tell you about success in this era of baseball? Lots of people think teams are built in the free agency era by the GM, so he's all-important. Clearly, he's a big part of the machine, but he's not the only part.

You also need people who can coax the best performance out of the roster you've got, day-by-day. This is where the A's under Billy Beane fall short. It appears that Beane is too much of a clubhouse meddler, but when you have passive manager like Macha who likes to just sit back and watch what happens (like another fan in the stands) somebody has to step up and absorb the clubhouse chemistry and get involved in the day-to-day, inning-by-inning drama of the season.

The best thing for the A's would be to have a manager who is more hands-on than Macha, more in touch with the players, and more intuitive about who's about to break out and have a big game and who isn't. That kind of manager may not be able to work with Beane, if he's as much a control freak as people say he is.

But the bottom line is that it take more than a great GM or a great manager or a rich owner to build a quality ball club - it takes a complete organization from top to bottom, including an adequate payroll, a great set of coaches, a decent trainer, as well as a talented and motivated roster. The A's haven't put all these elements together during the Beane era, even though they've had some talent that ranges from good to great.

I figger we're not going to see World Series rings in Oakland until these organizational shortcomings are addressed, but getting rid of Macha was a step in the right direction.

Now let's get a manager who Billy trusts enough to back off and let him do the job, a set of coaches (especially hitting coach and trainer) that can keep guys healthy and productive, and another 10-20 million in payroll. Then we'll be celebrating in late October.

The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 1:51 PM PDT reply actions  

I think you summed it up
pretty well Mossback. The A's need a great manager and just about eveyrbody wants to see great guy and great baseball man Ron Washington to get that shot. I don't know if it's in Billy Beane to  ever hire a great personality like Wash, and then give him some real autonomy for Wash to use his own creativity, and go beyond the rigid and boring Billy Beane MoneyBall style of play. I can only hope.

by Salvatore on Oct 20, 2006 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Byrnes had an interesting take
Eric Byrnes is still calling in on KHTK in Sacramento every week.  He said that Ken Macha's behavior towards the players was no different this year than in prior years.  But, in prior years the only guys who complained where the players that Billy Beane didn't care about, so Macha was safe.  This year, Billy's hand picked pets complained.  They whined to daddy, and daddy had the nanny sacked.

by Just Me on Oct 20, 2006 1:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Byrne touches all the bases
...with that insightful comment. He's the Jeannie Zelasko of baseball players.
The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Byrnes touches all the bases"
Good one.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe

by EastCoastA on Oct 20, 2006 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

well
last year it was melhuse, that we know of.
this year it was kotsay, kendall, zito, crosby, kennedy, harden, ellis, and melhuse.  so if all those other guys are beane's picked pets, byrnes is right.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 20, 2006 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

as I recall...
Byrnes also had a run-in with Macha last year after the infamous "wall-climber" incident.  Byrnes said he didn't care what Macha thought.  Everybody on AN bashed Byrnes, of course, but maybe, just maybe, that incident showed what everybody in the clubhouse thought about Macha but only Byrnes was willing to say publicly.
"When I got injured, I felt disrespected. Waaannnh!" - Mark Kotsay

by FoolshGame22 on Oct 20, 2006 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

See ya, Macha!
I really don't care why he was fired; I'm just glad it happened.
I'll try not to swear.

by Tony on Oct 20, 2006 2:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Byrnes is becoming...
a bigger yenta than Joan Rivers.

One of the things I like most about Beane is he doesn't let the grass grow under his feet. When he makes a mistake he tries to fix it. That's why TLong/Redman/Rhodes et al were sent elsewhere while still under contract. I am guessing that he regretted the making re-hiring and instead of suffering through another season of doubt he jettisoned Macha. Constrast this with Sabean who had to realize that Felipe Alou, Benitez, Alfonso et al were mistakes and did little to remedy them.

by NoeValley on Oct 20, 2006 3:28 PM PDT reply actions  

One of the best posts
all day long.

The reason Beane is great isn't because of the great moves he makes, it's the dancing he does to deftly avoid the big mistakes.

Anyone can make smart moves as a GM, but the difference between the average ones and the great ones is that they recognize and cover for their mistakes.  Beane realizes he made a mistake at this point with bringing back Macha...so he's taking action.

It's those who sit on their hands that find their hands too numb to do anything decisive when the time comes.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Oct 20, 2006 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

A cruder way of saying it....
just because you crap your pants doesn't mean you should sit in it too.
"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 20, 2006 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

not referring to Macha BTW
the Rhodes/Redman workout was incredible. And it worked because it required a partial admission of failure.  The temptation is to hope and pray for the turnaround rather than cut your losses decisively and try to get some value in exchange

But I don't believe Billy crapped out with the rehiring of Macha - if nothing else, I just hope we don't miss Macha's winning percentage.

"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 20, 2006 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Beane is a very good GM
but he is not the only one who doesn't sing while Rome burns.

An example. Omar Minaya made a huge mistake signing Kris Benson to a big contract last year. This year, he traded Benson for John Maine and Jorge Julio, who was turned into El Duque.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 21, 2006 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it was...
Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Whatever.

by Salvatore on Oct 21, 2006 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

He was also accused of singing
and playing the lyre.
On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 21, 2006 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

'Anyone can make smart moves as a GM'
Not for the warriors, they can't!
"...sometimes I can't tell the difference between baseball and magic."- salb918 "Ellie plowed into him like an evil, pink unicorn."-ArakSOT

by McFood on Oct 21, 2006 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree and disagree
I like that Beane tries to fix his mistakes rather than just keep them on the roster.
But, I think he sometimes screws up in an effort to land on his feet rather than just cut his losses.
take TLong for example, it wasn't a bad contract, but Howe honoring his playing street and the team consistently moving him from one of position to the next screwed him up.
we got rid of Ramon Hernandez (an excellent value at catcher) and put up with Damian Miller just to toss TLong.
Sure we got Kotsay, but at what price, he's on the books for two more years for a lot of money.
It might have been cheaper to just trade TLong for a lefthanded reliever to Kansas City in the first place.
Lilly's another example, he was good, and we traded a lefthanded starting pitcher for Bobby Kielty? to hell with the dollars, we should have resigned him and traded him midseason, or just kept him.

His replacement Mark Redman, to toss him and Arthur Rhodes we picked up Kendall's contract and lack of offense, I admit he was helpful the last two years, but was he worth the money?

There's nothing wrong with being wrong, just cut your losses in a disciplined fashion and try again.

by connie mack on Oct 21, 2006 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Has it been announced yet...
that Bob Geren is the new manager of the Athletics?
"When I got injured, I felt disrespected. Waaannnh!" - Mark Kotsay

by FoolshGame22 on Oct 20, 2006 3:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Nope
Gotta wait till Wash takes a job somewhere else, so it doesn't look like we're dissing him.
"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Oct 20, 2006 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yesterday the Merc suggested the Giants...
Yesterday the Mercury News suggested (facetiously) that the Giants should hire Wash as their manager, to tweak Beane.

by socal on Oct 20, 2006 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry...
What was the point of this diary again? I had trouble concentrating after the words "locker room" and "testicles..."

by jsiegel on Oct 20, 2006 4:37 PM PDT reply actions  

I didn't really exactly understand it,
but I'm pretty sure it had something to do with fish!  :-}

 -Cindi.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is this right?
I think you're trying to say that Macha was a crappy manager who was mistreated by Billy Beane.
The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Macha was
a crappy manager. I think he was "good enough" to pilot a happy clubhouse for years, "good enough" to keep his team pushing forward when they were 15 games under .500, and "good enough" to win a lot more games than he lost even through ridiculous spates of injuries.

A great manager? No. A lousy manager? No. Set up for guaranteed failure this year in the area of manager-player relations? Yup. Humiliate "the boss" and watch how the employees' attitudes change, and watch how the boss' morale changes. Every time.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right
So even if Beane had stroked Macha and sent him hookers and booze after every game, he still would have been mediocre. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what the A's could do with a really good manager as opposed to a passive-aggressive mediocre one?
The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Totally--Macha, IMO,
was not without flaws prior to 2006 nor during 2006. There are better managers out there and worse managers out there, as well as managers better (and worse) suited to what this team needs right now.

Personally, I think Ron Washington would be a great choice. I also expect Geren to be named manager. But we'll see...

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, I agree
Wash would be the inspired choice, but we're more likely to see Geren because he's the safer choice.
The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

i did not read the author but
when i got to the testicles and locker room stuff...nico came to mind..."figures, i mumbled to myself"
rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Oct 20, 2006 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you're saying that
when you get to the testicles, you think of me?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marty Lurie pulls of the gloves ...
about Barry Zito:

"Someone should think long and hard before thowing 75 million at this over thinker who gets rocked and then says he nit picked too much. Macha gave him his due every game in the press in case Mr. Sensitive Lefty has forgotten."

... dems fightin' words!!!

by GrewUpAtTheColiseum on Oct 20, 2006 5:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Gotta Disagree
There is no way that you can quit and be hired back, at same or higher salary, without everything changing.

Macha shouldn't have come back, and when he did, he should have left his resentment back in Pittsburg.

Even so, things would have changed:  the players would have seen another side of him, one that their inexperienced minds probably didn't like.  And then he's no different, perhaps less understanding than before.  Why shouldn't they complain to Beane?  Macha had already made clear to them who was number one.

Beane got an important year of continuity from Macha, and confirmation that he cannot manage in a short series.  Why keep him?  He's peaked.

 

by dingerpower on Oct 20, 2006 5:39 PM PDT reply actions  

I would imagine that
if Beane hadn't fired Macha this off-season, Macha would have quit. Just a hunch, though.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quit to do what,
manage a Taco Bell in Bakersfield?
The A's success should surprise no one. They're a much better team than people give them credit for. -- Joe Morgan

by BubbaDude on Oct 20, 2006 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

he won't need to too much
for at least the next couple of years

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2006 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

the only problem
is that Macha would wait until they were all out of Fire Sauce before calling to the Barstow store to get them to bring more.
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Corporate structure is strange
Since Billy is part owner of the team who has the power to reign him in? Wolfisher let him run the team. What power does Pres. Mike Crowley have, if any? So has Billy become Charlie Finley? has this turned into a one man operation? I hope not. I was not a Macha fan, but I feel the whole situation was the fault of both Beane and Macha. So what is the answer, there are no more Earl Weavers or Billy Martins out there. I say lets have some fun and bring back Jack McKeon, there would be more head butting and fodder for great diaries.

by billyball1981 on Oct 20, 2006 6:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Billy Beane was right
when he said Macha was "good enough" . Good enough to manage a fairly talented team to the playoffs, but not good enough in the post-season "crapshoot" or "cardgame", as Machiavelli likes to put it. And, it's even more Beanes fault, in my humble opinion, why none of his teams have yet to make it to the world series.

by Salvatore on Oct 20, 2006 6:23 PM PDT reply actions  

excellent
I really enjoyed reading this.  Sums it up well too.  Three years under Billy probably aged Macha another ten years.  Hopefully Billy checks his ego but how easy is that when has stake in the team?

by azagtooth on Oct 20, 2006 7:40 PM PDT reply actions  

we fired the right guy for the wrong reason
who cares about some whiney ass players. I thought that was why we love the A's so much. Now we fire Macha over Kumbaya, damn people. He was a freakin moron in the dugout. Baseball strategy is so dang simple and we miss it most of the time, probably because it is so basic. The question at hand is who do we bring in to manage this group of bed wetters. Please don't  go with the communicator or players manager schtick, evidently these adolescents nead leadership. Pick me Pick me.
a trained monkey can win 95 games with this lineup. skeeter metrics is coming

by skeeter1 on Oct 20, 2006 8:46 PM PDT reply actions  

the Tigers don't sing Kumbaya
They all gather in a circle around the guy with the 101-mph fastball and sing Zumaya.

by vk on Oct 20, 2006 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

LMAO!!!!!
Baseball is life. . . at least that is what my sweatshirt says.

by 0R0H0E on Oct 20, 2006 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice! And Zumaya
whiffs Kumbaya every time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or "Zoom by ya"
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Oct 22, 2006 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

baseball is life
and how fitting the possiblilty that mlb will offer an urn in the colors of a fan's favorite team. Eventually my love of the A's will surely kill me, but I feel much better knowing that my ashes will sit on the mantle in a green and gold container. what a country. my wife can hardly wait.

by skeeter1 on Oct 20, 2006 9:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Just a suggestion, skeeter1:
Next time your wife makes you a "cup of tea," don't drink it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

and
it's probably best to avoid the tops of staircases as well.
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

skeetermetrics is life
AN is the greatest thing ever, see ya in the moring, it's allready late here in the east. I am out of beer,
love, Skeeter

by skeeter1 on Oct 20, 2006 9:52 PM PDT reply actions  

Alas
Skeeter, we hardly knew ye.
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Taking there time
I'm glad this time around they're going to take there time to find the right manager.

My guess is they'll eventually offer the job to Dusty Baker who will follow the A's rules (pitch count etc.) because he wants to manage and live in NoCal. BTW, Tony La Russa was Dusty's last MLB manager with the A's in 1986

"Flying a plane is like riding a bicycle...it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes." --Airplane!

by SalParadise on Oct 20, 2006 10:49 PM PDT reply actions  

I prefer "here time,"
but I guess that's neither here nor their.

I don't see Dusty in the Green & Gold. I see Washington, Geren, or Bud Black. And <whispering> I see dead people.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2006 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I see
London, I see France...
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 20, 2006 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Long shot
Joey Cora the White Sox 3b coach
"Flying a plane is like riding a bicycle...it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes." --Airplane!

by SalParadise on Oct 20, 2006 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

WS bound
With this team I prefer an experienced manager rather than another newbie.
"Flying a plane is like riding a bicycle...it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes." --Airplane!

by SalParadise on Oct 21, 2006 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I noticed my typos after I posted ...
... it's late ... hiccup
"Flying a plane is like riding a bicycle...it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes." --Airplane!

by SalParadise on Oct 20, 2006 11:03 PM PDT reply actions  

talking points by Kawakami of the Mercury news
I thought this article was hilarous and somewhat sad but hopefully it wasn't already posted on AN.
http://mercextra.com/blogs/kawakami/2006/10/18/a-great-beane-macha-moment-i-just-remembered/#more-12 7
"The game was closer than the score indicated" - Dizzy Dean after a 1-0 game

by broncobert on Oct 20, 2006 11:49 PM PDT reply actions  

maybe beane's the problem
have we considered this? willie randolph read money ball i guess.

by rickmonday on Oct 21, 2006 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Green, Gold and Black
Well I hope we get Ron Washington as manager.
Add Jimmy Rollins and keep Thomas and Bradley, a great team to cheer for!

by apilgrim on Oct 21, 2006 12:33 AM PDT reply actions  

keeping pitchers in too long.
that was macha's problem. it was amazing to see leyland come out in place of the pitching coach and put it on the line to the pitcher and usually they would come through. no one's gonna come through for kurt young, but if they had to deal with the manager, things are different.

also... it's the playoffs dummy. you use your bullpen, which is stacked with talent.

at least we got beat by a 3 run homer, not another looked at third strike. that would've been tough.

by rickmonday on Oct 21, 2006 1:44 AM PDT reply actions  

In Game 7, do you think
Carlos Beltran was channeling those few minutes he spent as a member of the A's?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2006 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

A tlong time ago, in a playoff far far away...

Beltran sees a vision of TLong, gone but having
merged with the Force(d) Out of the Playoffs.

Beltran:  Wise Terrance Long, two strikes, what should I do?

TLong:  There is no do...or try for that matter.

Beltran:  WTF?

Ump:  STRIKE THREE!

by calvin @ Athletics Nation on Oct 21, 2006 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome! QOTM nominee.
"...sometimes I can't tell the difference between baseball and magic."- salb918 "Ellie plowed into him like an evil, pink unicorn."-ArakSOT

by McFood on Oct 21, 2006 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Macha's side of it -- 'too much interference
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/22/AS.TMP

The Kotsay thing is almost incomprehensible. I blogged about this... I'm with Nico that there's something wrong with Billy Beane's management style.

by vk on Oct 21, 2006 8:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Interesting! Two ironies:
  1. That Kotsay and Haren, the two Macha went to bat for in the post-season, would be two of the players who turned on him

  2. That two of the decisions most criticized by AN--not starting Kielty vs. LHP and not starting Haren until ALCS Game 4--were (according to Macha) made by Beane against Macha's judgment.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2006 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

no, Beane wanted Kielty
but Macha started Kotsay, according to Macha as quoted in the article. In this case Macha went against Beane. In the other case, he bowed to Beane's wishes and started Harden in Game 3.

by OaklandSi on Oct 21, 2006 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

kotsay's comments ring wrong
they always seemed to somewhat...yes, i think geren, wash, or whoever will probably be a better manager than ken, but some of the player comments just were not cool, particularily kotsay's. seriously, macha basically does the wrong thing by starting him in the postseason to "get his back", then he goes and rips him. messed up. kielty as a righty mashed lefty pitching and wasn't a huge dropoff in the OF (ie shifting payton to CF instead of kotsay, having kielty play LF). kotsay did not hit lefties nearly as well as kielty, so kielty should have played over kotsay. period. maybe macha could have communicated it better to kotsay, but kotsay's comments still seem overly harsh.
"welcome to ME, motherf*^*er!" - tim hudson

by guy incognito on Oct 21, 2006 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kotsay's Comments Ring True
He had every right to criticize Macha.  Macha essentially called Kotsay a liar (regarding his injuries) and questioned his heart.  Both of those things are inexcusible, no matter what Macha does to make up for it.  He could have let Kotsay pitch in game 1 and it still does not make up for what he said about Kotsay.

by Bleeding the Green and Gold on Oct 21, 2006 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're right--
my bad. Beane 1, Macha 1. Still ironic that Kotsay, not Kielty, was the one with an issue after the ALCS.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2006 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Macha was publicly praising
Kielty for not complaining about not playing

by OaklandSi on Oct 21, 2006 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kotsay is such a dick
How do people not see this. Just listen to the guy on a postgame show sometime when he's a little bent about something. He's so irritable--such a classic a-hole jock.

Macha totally backs the jerkoff and plays him, and Kotsay is the first guy foaming at the mouth with the press after Macha is fired.

I wished this dipshit played anywhere but here. He's not even any fucking good at what he does. The most overrated player on the A's by far.

by RLangford on Oct 22, 2006 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

hmm...I agree.
Kotsay, officially of my favorites list.

by Amnesiac727 on Oct 22, 2006 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sadly, I feel the same way--
and I have had a publicly well-known man-crush on the guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

from clubhouse leader to petty backstabber
how the mighty have fallen. i'm wondering if kotsay gets traded in the offseason. wouldn't be the worst idea if we could get good talent in return.
"welcome to ME, motherf*^*er!" - tim hudson

by guy incognito on Oct 22, 2006 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Spot on
Great take Nico. Better than anything I've read in the Chron, Trib, Merc or Bee. Kudos.

by KJ on Oct 21, 2006 8:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Beane calls Macha's views....
...a "total fabrication".

My God....I'm beginning to wonder if we're seeing the scales tip on the A's franchise, and if this isn't the beginning of the end for this era in the history of the A's franchise.

Stenbrenner's done a lot of crappy things, but I'm not sure that he's EVER called one of his former managers a LIAR in the press.

There was no reason for Beane to cross that line. Let Macha have his say and just keep your mouth shut.

A lot of you are discussing how recent events have turned your opinion of Kotsay.

My opinion of Beane has just taken a dramatic, negative turn.

`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06

by nodaclu on Oct 21, 2006 10:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Beane's comment
That one leapt off the screen.  I guess it's diary time.

by bear88 on Oct 21, 2006 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beane's ego is so fucking huge
He thinks he's untouchable. That he writes his own rules and it's all right because, you know, he's Billy Beane, the great GM.

I don't even think he's a bad guy or particularly mean--like, say, that prick Kotsay.

But his ego is just so gigantic that he's blinded by it and, consequently, can be an ass.

Yeah, shut up and give Mach his say. If anything, Beane should be humiliated and ashamed that he facilitated an environment in which players unload on a guy after he's fired. That was just despicable, just inexcusable.

by RLangford on Oct 22, 2006 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't really care
why he's gone.  Just that he stay's gone.  I am still waiting two weeks before I believe he is officially gone.  

My perspective on the second guessing of Beane is a little different.  The one constant in the years that the A's have been contenders is Beane.  He is the architect of the A's success.  The managers come and go, and the team keeps on rolling.  The players come and go and still the team keeps on rolling.

And they are a successful franchise, WS win nonwithstanding.  Consistency is the key here people. I will take Beane and his "super ego" anytime over any manager out there.  Eventually, if we keep making the playoffs, we will see a WS trophy hoisted in Oakland...or Fremont.  But not if we don't make the postseason.  And Beane has proven that he is the one that engineers the A's success.  I will give him the benefit of the doubt long before Macha, Howe, or the next manager.

I would like to see Wash get the job, but in my heart I know Geren will.  I can live with that.  I hope Wash is at least promoted to bench coach if he's still around.  

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Oct 22, 2006 12:32 AM PDT reply actions  

amen, brother.
"The A's motto: E Pluribus Beanum. In Billy we trust." - Scott Ostler/SF Chronicle

by Suck My Moneyballs on Oct 22, 2006 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Kotsay will not make it thru the offseason
Kotsay's self-centered comments radiated a ton of heat on an already uncomfortable situation for Beane ("gee, Boss I know we have nearly the smallest revenue of any club but I have to recommend flushing $2.5-$3 million down the tubes over the next two years because of this thing called a disconnection - not wins and losses mind you - a disconnect").

Kotsay embarrassed Beane and the organization with those comments.  Not surprising that he refused to speak with John Shea yesterday (why didn't Macha make his case to Slusser btw).  

So if he poured gas on Beane's situation and embarassed organization headed by two classy owners, which decision makers are now in his corner?

"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT reply actions  

According to the article (at the end),
"Susan Slusser contributed to this article"--so in some way, she was certainly involved, just FYI.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

team reporting, t-shirts
there's some teamwork involved here. on a well-managed desk, reporters will be assigned to reach the source who is most likely to call them back or who will be seeing them that day anyhow.

as someone who didn't buy an AN t-shirt because of the "In Billy We Trust" message (along a general tendency for being cheap), I wonder if the  current flap will lead to some more personality-neutral shirts?

 

by vk on Oct 22, 2006 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm designing one that reads,
"In Billy We Accept, Because Hey, He's The GM Of The Team I Love, And After All He Is Pretty Darn Good At What He Does."

It's currently in Helvetica 4-point, though, which is a bit of a problem.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a good idea...
...to burn bridges - by anyone. Players, coaches and even GMs move around. As for the players' comments, why in the world would they even open their mouths? Who, besides a reporter here and there, benefits from this? I objected to some of Macha's/Beane's moves, i.e., almost total lack of manufacturing runs (called by some "small ball", but to me it's "smart ball"), but Macha has in his own words taken the high road in this fiasco and I applaud him for it.

by doubleplayer on Oct 22, 2006 1:54 PM PDT reply actions  

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