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This guy is starting to bug me...

I've never had a bad word for Chavvy... through all his poor starts... through all his "foot-in-mouth" comments, but does this guy get the fact that he's the leader of a team battling for first place in the division?  You tell me (from Urban's Mailbag):

[Urban]
Do I think the A's have closed the talent gap? Yes. Particularly in the bullpen. Honestly, I had no idea Jay Witasick was as good as he's been, and I'm now among the converted regarding Joe Kennedy's value. In fact, I think the A's bullpen is now as good, if not better, than the Angels'. And I now think Oakland's rotation is far superior to the Angels', and that's where you win most of your games.

[And, now, Chavvy...]
It's interesting to note, though, that Eric Chavez disagrees with me. I asked him about the talent gap last week in Minneapolis, and he was quick to respond. "I'll never say we have more talent than them," he said. "They're just so solid. Top to bottom, they've got more talent, hands down. They should win the division, if you ask me."

Okay... humility?  Maybe.  Not wanting to jinx the team?  Maybe.  But, I'm tired of it.  Geez, grow a pair of balls, Eric!  Or, quit campaigning to become a friggin' Angel!  Is Urban smarter than Chavez?  Only marginally, since even Urban still picks the Angels to win the division in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Poll
Are the A's better than the Angels?
Yes.
82 votes
No.
13 votes
I don't know, but Byrnes is better against righties than Kotsay this year. ;-)
10 votes

105 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 64 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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This has been a quality in Chavvy that's always gotten to me too. But I've come to realize that that's just the guy's nature. That's how he sees the world. He looks at the Angels and says what he says, completely honest. Though, in this case, he could have his tongue a little in his cheek.

Funny thing is, it's never really mattered. Chavvy would concede the division year after year and we'd still win it. It doesn't really bug me that much anymore.

by RLangford on Aug 8, 2005 11:20 PM PDT reply actions  

What Bugs me is that he didn't post the rest
of the Article.

That doesn't mean Chavez was ruling the A's out, mind you. He was just being himself -- brutally honest. He also noted that the A's are playing better baseball than the Angels and that talent didn't clinch anything.

by theblackpearl on Aug 9, 2005 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know what you mean
Even DJ has a better attitude than Chavez. DJ's all like, "We're going to WIN tomorrow and TAKE the series." If you talk to Chavez, he'd probably say something like, "Hopefully we'll get lucky and our starting pitching will be solid and we'll get some timely hits and scrape by with a win, Huston Street is good but so is the other team, they have a tough lineup and good pitching too blah blah blah. But yeah, we'll try and win!!"

by Melody on Aug 8, 2005 11:21 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah...
surprised he didn't say how lucky the A's were to "just barely" squeak by the Royals.  Pull your head out, Chavez!  You're on a good, if not great, team!
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 8, 2005 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I voted I do not know!
And yes looks like the bet is a given for you.

Byrnes is doing what I expected and frankly that is not very good. I just had no idea Kotsay would be 100 points below his career OPS v Righties... and however you knew that more power to you.

by novaoakland on Aug 8, 2005 11:22 PM PDT reply actions  

you're starting to sound like Chavez...
to me, Nova.  ;-)
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 8, 2005 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

he's lowballing it
He ain't a fool. About a week ago, he said, in effect, why can't we keep playing like this??

He just doesn't want to give the Angels any bulletin board material.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 8, 2005 11:28 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't care...
he's been saying it all year.  I'm tired of it.  Give 'em some bulletin board material.  Woof it up, Eric, please... just once!!!

Then, go out and kick the shit out of 'em!

Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 8, 2005 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

True
Everyone knows Chavvy is such a humble person. He would rather "speak softly, and carry a big stick."

by arch on Aug 8, 2005 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

yep
remember how over-confident he was in 2001 and it totally fired up the Yankees. Live and  learn
Mark Ellis---"this is the funnest team we've ever been on -- Little League, high school, whatever. This is great."

by Alien @ Athletics Nation on Aug 9, 2005 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

chavvy being chavvy
i've come to accept his brutal honesty. sometimes i hate it, sometimes i love it but i don't really care what he says anymore as long as he produces on the field.

by gotgreen on Aug 8, 2005 11:30 PM PDT reply actions  

Holy Crap.
This stuff is starting to get old.  Chavy is just being Chavy.  He's giving an honest assessment of both teams.  Considering that Chavez is more of an "old schooler" than the A's "new school," it's not surprising.  So he thinks the Angels are a better team.  So what?  That doesn't mean he's going to roll over when they show up.  This is the same guy who, when told he was going to be a poor fielder during his career, decided to shove it in their faces and become one of the best-fielding third basemen in the history of the game.

And remember, Chavy was also one of the guys who said in 2002-2003 that the A's were a better team than the Angels (Zito was the other one, I believe).  Based on the team records in 2002, and the fact that we owned them in head-to-head play, he was right.

He's honest.  It's not a character flaw to be honest.  He's showing respect to the other team's talent.  Get over it.  Would you rather he say, "The Angels are the worst team in the majors"?  Because that just sounds completely idiotic.

by Inquisitor on Aug 8, 2005 11:52 PM PDT reply actions  

He doesn't have to say...
"The Angels are the worst team in the majors."  That's obviously not true... the Giants are the worst team in baseball.

All he has to say is: "The way we're playing, right now, I think will cut through them like a hot knife through butter.  Do they have more talent?  Who cares, we're still going to roll over them."  Or, something like that.

Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 8, 2005 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

"will cut" = "we'll cut" ;-)
god, i hate that!
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yea...and make every sports newscast...
and risk looking like a complete ass if they lose 2 of 3....Cmon.
Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 9, 2005 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Can we copy all of that
and make a big ass sign for the Coliseum?

I'm with you on this, Inquisitor.

"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 9, 2005 4:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Couldnt disagree more...
It's 100% what he should say and exactly what I would say in the situation.  Why should he say anything else?  To fire them up even more?  To get on their bulletin board?  Give me a break...what he is saying means nothing unless he fires up the opposition.

Well done Chavy....Brains.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 9, 2005 12:00 AM PDT reply actions  

if you "know" you're destined...
...to be a champion....

why pretend you don't know it?  Did you ever see Ali in his prime, Namath in the Super Bowl... the Raiders in the 70's... Swisher as a rookie?

It's called swagger... and, Chavez should get himself a dose!

Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

how soon we forget
i remember just a few weeks ago when chavez said he thought the a's could keep up their level of play for the rest of the year, whereas crosby (i think it was a different article on the same day) was skeptical and said that the team would eventually come back down to earth.  

where was the criticism of crosby then (not that i think he deserves it)?  or is crosby above criticism?  
where was the praise for chavez?  

honestly, who cares?  as long as they keep playing well, i sure don't...

in fact, maybe chavez is the smart one here, saying the a's will keep it up when he's asked for a general statement about the team, but praising the angels when he's asked to compare the two teams.  
the angels are totally demoralized (go over to halosheaven sometime) already, what would pissing them off accomplish??

the people who want chavez to do that are probaby the same ones who wanted him to punch a gatorade container in may.  

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 9, 2005 12:12 AM PDT reply actions  

So, you think he's chuckling to himself...
about what a smart psychological ploy it was to make that comment?  Or, do you think he really believes what he said?  Which is it?  I think it's the latter.  And, that, to me, just isn't what the "team leader" should be saying in the face of an upcoming division-deciding matchup.  Do you think the Angels are saying to themselves:  "Gee, Chavez really respects us?"  Or, do you think they're saying to themseles:  "That guy is scared of us."
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

you must not be too familiar with the history
of bulletin board material.  

historically teams get a lot more pissed off when their opponents do the namath thing, although it worked for joe.  
it's important to be careful when speaking to the media, you don't want to do a tracy mcgrady and say how happy you are to be going to the second round of the playoffs when your team is up 3-0.

either way, we'll see...

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 9, 2005 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think it matters, either way...
If you know you're better, why not say it?  You'll still win.  If you think you're not better, keep your friggin' trap shut and hope for the best!  Do you think Patton constantly told his tankers that the Germans were much better and they should win?  God, it's so defeatist!  The next time he asks, just tell Urban the A's are gonna hand the Angels their asses and live with the consequences.  Geez, be a man.
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why?
How about not being a pompous ass?  Thank God chavez isnt how you want him to be....He would be so unlikable.
Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 9, 2005 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

On the flip side of the argument...
How are our very own A's supposed to feel when they read his comment? I'm sure the rookies [and every other person associated with the team as well] believe that they have every bit as much talent as the Angels have, and then some raw energy and enthusiasm and love for the game that is unsurpassed. It's one thing to say, "The Angels have so much talent up and down the lineup and they're going to be hard to beat..."

But to say, "They've got more talent, hands down." Is that really fair to his own team? He hasn't even seen half of what the A's are capable of - hello, we're still in uncharted territory here. I understand where he's coming from and that he's 'saying the right thing' and as a result, he'll never be a hated player. And maybe he really is that smart and he's using a bit of reverse psychology on the Angels - if he's saying they're that good, how are they supposed to respond? They can't come back and say the A's suck, that would make them look like bullies!

But what irks me just a tiny, tiny bit is that he comes off as not having full confidence in his team. Whether it's just the way he was quoted or if he really believes the Angels have more talent and should win the division, it's not going to hurt to stand up a bit for your own squad. Your team looks up to you, Chavez dear. Show them that you believe in them.

by Melody on Aug 9, 2005 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

and, of course, Melody...
sums it all up in a fashion more level-headed and eloquent than I ever could... and, in a manner that is irrefutable, even to those who were arguing against my "strident" position.  ;-)
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Let's grin and bear it...
Chavy's statements riled me up at first for sure and I think they should.  But, I'm sure the A's clubhouse believes in him and maybe he knows he has to be the public voice that neutralize Swisher's reputation.  Hopefully, as these A's establish themselves Chavy will stop making such comments.  The A's aren't about mediaspeak and storybook heroes.  In the end, we're a club built on probabilities - and chances are, the 2005 A's are ready for this series.  
"I'm so green and gold that I hang on every pitch, not just every game." - Lew Wolff

by BleacherDrummer on Aug 9, 2005 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't get it.
His statements don't rile me up at all. Why should they?

by ArakSOT on Aug 9, 2005 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yep, riled up
Melody's comment gets at the reasoning for my reaction. And reread Chavy's exchange - it doesn't struck you as being more than just humble or realistic?  It seems a little glass-half-empty to me.

Anyway, maybe people like me who relate to this diary should've done what Chavy could have: kept quiet.  

But lighten up dudes - We're all A's fans and no one's saying Chavy's not our guy.  His honesty just sounds like pessimism sometimes.  Especially when we're on a roll and it doesn't seem necessary.  Urban only asked him an innocent question.  It's not like he asked: "Do you think the A's are the Angels daddy?" (I hope so).

And I'm glad most people on this blog don't read into it too much.  You all are right that the rational thing to do is take it as Chavy being Chavy and enjoy the A's solid play on the field.

"I'm so green and gold that I hang on every pitch, not just every game." - Lew Wolff

by BleacherDrummer on Aug 9, 2005 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't mean to be heavy
We just have different takes, I suppose, because I honestly don't hear pessimism in Chavez' comments. What I hear is a guy going out of his way to be respectful. Of Tejada, (the "I'd sign him not me" comment), of the Angels... well, of whomever he is speaking.

by ArakSOT on Aug 9, 2005 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps
Perhaps by more talent he means more established talent. More guys that have proven themselves. That is how I read it.

When the A's took over the wild card lead wasn't it Chavez who said that they weren't even thinking about the WC because they had their eyes on the division.

by Larry E on Aug 9, 2005 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good Point
And I read it that way too...after a double take, cause I usually interpret talent as innate, not learned.  Anyway, I believe Chavy is hunting down the Angels as ravenously as everyone else.
"I'm so green and gold that I hang on every pitch, not just every game." - Lew Wolff

by BleacherDrummer on Aug 9, 2005 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

middle-of-the-road
Foolsh, I think your suggestion regarding cutting through the Angels like a knife through hot butter is way over the top.  On the other hand, a guy can be TOO modest, and Chavy's quote above is just that, especially the part that goes "they should win the division."  

In other words, I don't agree with you that we should woof, but Chavez's comment smacks of "reverse Woofing," just as bad as woofing, really.  They've got more talent, hands down?  That's not even believable--the Woofing Gods will not be fooled.  Chavy's comment will no doubt hurt us when the Woofing Gods tally up all the relevant Woofs and then determine the outcome of the games upcoming.

"Every time he opens his mouth he makes a fool of himself," La Russa said. "He's a village idiot."

by rubin sierra on Aug 9, 2005 1:04 AM PDT reply actions  

ha ha...
I actually agree with you Rubin.  I went "over-the-top" just to make a point.  Of course, I wouldn't expect Chavez to say anything like that... he's no Ali or Namath or Stabler.  All I'm saying is that his "reverse Woofing" can have no positive effect.
Rich Harden - Cy Young 2005 & Dan Johnson - ROY 2005!

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 9, 2005 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

chavvy learned a hard lesson
when they broadcast him on the scoreboard in game 5 of the 2000 div series when he talked about the end of the yankee dynasty before the game.  that backfired.

by mcbronsh on Aug 9, 2005 3:02 AM PDT reply actions  

and there you go
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 9, 2005 3:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is one of those many cases...
...where Chavez delves into his Christianity and plays the humility and humbleness card as you've alluded to.  Someone should remind Chavez that bearing false witness [in this case where he says "They should win the division, if you ask me."] is a sin and trumps the efforts of being humble.

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 9, 2005 3:43 AM PDT reply actions  

I love Chavy.
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 9, 2005 4:59 AM PDT reply actions  

I'd like to add
that the perception, ever since the Angels signed Vlad, has been that they've had more talent. The media goes on and on and on about this EVERY SINGLE DAY.

They're wrong. These two teams are at least comparable. But I think Chavy and just about everyone else thinks that talent=experience. Have you been there? Have you done that? When you hear former players talk about who they think will win it all, it's always the more experienced teams. A young team with unknown players are going to be...unknown.

Take, for instance what Tejada has to say:

"Oakland's going to have a tough time with those guys," said Baltimore Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada, who played for the A's until 2004. "This team (the Angels) is a great team. They can run, hit, hit with power and pitch. They have everything."

They don't have everything They don't hit for much power. The A's are definitely better on offense.

These players watch ESPN. That's where they get their information. Need I say more?

"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 9, 2005 5:43 AM PDT reply actions  

A young team IS going to be unknown. :(
By the way...I don't like the perception that the Angels have more talent. I know that it's wrong. But the only way the A's are going to prove that they're better is by beating then on the field. And that's what's most important. We have a great third baseman on our team. We know he's going to play his ass off to beat the Angels...no matter how much respect he has for them.
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 9, 2005 5:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chavvy
He knows we're better, but he's putting all the pressure on the Angels. Even Huddy, our old BULLDOG Huddy, he said the Angels were favorites a couple years back right after they won the WS. So you see Chavvy is just emulating him. Talk your opponents up, then make them fall. It's sweeter that way.

by OaktownTribesman on Aug 9, 2005 5:47 AM PDT reply actions  

Exactly!
So well said.
Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 9, 2005 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Really...
...is it so horrible for him not to conform to someone's perceived notion of what makes a great "team leader" in baseball?  Everyone on the team points out that he's a great leader figure, because he does the job the right way.  He prepares and practices constantly, and he's always looking to improve himself.  He hates losing, and makes sure that everyone around him hates losing, too.

What more can you ask for?  So what if he doesn't fit your typical mold of what a "leader" should and shouldn't do.  All that matters is that he has the respect of his peers, because they're the ones he is supposed to be "leading" (and I use the word in quotation marks because really, once you hit the major leagues, you shouldn't need someone to stand there and hold your hand like it's the freaking third grade anymore).

"OMG CHAVY SAID HE THINKS THE ANGELS ARE A BETTER TEAM OMG ITS THE END OF THE WORLD CUZ I THINK HE SHOULD BE A LEADER AND HE IS SAYING THINGS THAT I DON'T THINK A LEADER SHOULD SAY EVEN THO ALL HIS TEAMMATES SAY HE'S A GOOD LEADER AND THEY'VE BEEN KICKING ASS SINCE HE TOLD US NOT TO BE SATISIFIED WITH LOSING!!!"

Chavy is just being honest.  That's who he is.  That's why the media loves getting quotes from him, because they know they won't get the normal platitudes that everyone else spouts off.  For the record, Chavy also said that the he thought the Yankees were done a few years ago and, as I pointed out, that the A's were a much better team than the Angels in 2002.  Anyone remember the Hideo Nomo comment?  "Worst stuff I've ever seen."  And yet, somehow, the team was shut down by that same pitcher.  Does it make sense to say that a pitcher has crappy stuff when he's just made your team look like a bunch of infants with twigs?  No.  But that's what he says, because that's what he thinks.

It's time for people to stop holding it against him just because he's being honest.  This is the same stuff that annoys me about politics - everyone gets their panties in a bunch because politicians do or say stupid things every once in a while, but ignore the larger issues at hand.  Well gee, politicians are human.  If you come in expecting them to be perfect, then I hate to break it to you, but you're asking to be a sucker.

by Inquisitor on Aug 9, 2005 6:42 AM PDT reply actions  

excellent post
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 9, 2005 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

More discussion
regarding Chavez's lack of heart can be found here.

I'm guessing FoolshGame22  thinks that it was Eric Byrnes's hustle and heart that were propelling this team.

Fearing Mecir since 2000.

by salb918 on Aug 9, 2005 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course
Since Byrnes was traded away the team has sucked.
I sipped the Kool-Aid, and it tastes gooooooooood!!!

by kaweahkaweah on Aug 9, 2005 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Inquisitor....
Extremely well written.
Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 9, 2005 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Who cares?
I sipped the Kool-Aid, and it tastes gooooooooood!!!

by kaweahkaweah on Aug 9, 2005 7:12 AM PDT reply actions  

lol
<punches wall>
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 9, 2005 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not funny...it's...it's not fun.
<headbutts watercooler>
Picker of Nits since '63. Or so I thought until I discovered AN. Now I feel like a nitpiker.

by McFood on Aug 9, 2005 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's important
is what he says INSIDE the clubhouse and how he does on the field.  Lou Holtz is seen as a crafty genius in part because he downgrades his teams so as to lull opponents into overconfidence.  (Sorry, that's an inelegant sentence, but I've got to get back to work.)  Who knows, maybe Chavez is doing the same thing.  I'd rather Chavez be cautious rather than a blow hard gauranteeing victories and creating bulletin board quotes for the Angels, who, from the looks of things, would try to use that sort of thing to get them going.

by Ray of Lite on Aug 9, 2005 10:01 AM PDT reply actions  

no one's going to be lulled into overconfidence
playing the A's.  You actually have to be able to convince your opponents that they are better than you are.  How that can be accomplished against a team that is 37-8 in their last 45, as well as the fact that they're surrounded by the mystique of being such a ridiculously great second-half team, I don't know.  
Rock over London, Rock on Oakland. Wheaties: It's the Breakfast of Champions.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 9, 2005 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he truly may not know ...
how talented this team really is.  The core of the team is a bunch of rookies.  Is Dan Johnson playing out of his head, or is he really this good?  Is Blanton's stuff good enough that if he locates it well other team can't tee off.  Can Swisher hit anybody if he just waits for the good picthes to hit?  Is Crosby's arm so strong that as long as he gets to balls at short he can pretty much throw anyone out?  Is Harden in a league all buy himself, so if he doesn't beat himself, then he's untouchable?  Is Street still getting bigger, stronger and better?

I think these are questions the young guys must be asking themselves right now.  They've never really been at this hallowed level before, and they are probably pinching themselves to find out if they are for real.  They've always been much better than the competition in all levels they have ever played, and they've got to be thinking that maybe they still are.  It was supposed to be that way for Chavy, but as good as he is, he's maybe not the superstar that he was expected to be.  So maybe his take on the talent chasm is a little jaded, influenced by his own shortcomings.  But maybe these young guys really are that good, and they have been shown no reason to make them believe otherwise.

If the A's take it to the Angels this week, will Chavy have a different assessmeent of the relative talent levels?  Will the whole team believe they are superior, and not just hot?

by iceplant on Aug 9, 2005 11:19 AM PDT reply actions  

Chavez Wants all the young players to get better
Not be happy where they are.. hence the comments
A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 9, 2005 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah I just lost a really long post
my punishment for posting while downloading on a 56k, apparently.  In 15 words or less, this franchise player is anything but a leader.
Rock over London, Rock on Oakland. Wheaties: It's the Breakfast of Champions.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 9, 2005 4:18 PM PDT reply actions  

That's not what his teammates have said
I sipped the Kool-Aid, and it tastes gooooooooood!!!

by kaweahkaweah on Aug 9, 2005 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe...
Maybe he feels (or felt when he said this) that the A's were getting overconfident or too cocky. Perhaps this was his way of keeping some egos in check. I'm just speculating of course, since I'm not in the clubhouse and don't know what goes on there.
No, I do not want to FIRE MACHA NOW, nor do I think Blanton is fat. Now leave me alone.

by pbruins92 on Aug 9, 2005 7:24 PM PDT reply actions  

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