after reading this crap, the big mystery remains:

Does Joe Morgan still think Billy Beane wrote "Moneyball?"

by "crap," I mean Morgan's analysis, not your post. I think you're right on with your analysis of his statements.

Mulder/Hudson/Dye was a slary dump for the most part.

Take the emotion out of the equation for a second. Morgan's points are valid. Had we been able to keep the payroll up in the late 90's and into the last few seasons, we would not have dumped the people we did at the time we did and may well have had a World Series win or two behind us at this point .

Joe's a jerk, I know, but let's also be relaistic. "Moneyball" has made for great seasons and then an early exit in the post-season. I don't like saying it but them's the facts.

Once you get off the "he hates the A's train' he didn't really say anything we don't know and haven't seen.

-BIO-

a knock-knock joke. You know the punch line is going to be lame but its still funny.

kaweahkaweah said it well on the other JM diary. Joe knows how to play second. He knows how to go with a pitch. He knows how to read a pitcher. And, its great that he explains all this on TV.

Joe gets into trouble when he goes outside the lines (so to speak). It would be great if he could manage the A's. Interesting would be a mild way to put it.

As for the comments listed. Joe doesnt even answer Yousef's question (What does BB do if the A's are out early?). He assumes the A's have a low payroll. I guess its all relative. But, the payroll isnt at the bottom of the league. Joe seems to be right about the bay area supporting teams. We do need a new park. But, how about an open market in the south bay? Finally, I love that Adam calls out Joe on the Red Sox. And Joe responds by saying high salary teams can not play moneyball. Earth to Joe, Moneyball is not mutually exclusive to poor teams.

Oh please baseball gods, let this happen and I'll sacrifice a thousand goats in honor of Commisar Bud's used cars.

I respect the fact that JM has so much experience in the game as a HOFer, but is the man really qualified in the booth?

He is completely unable to integrate any new thoughts or ideas about the game. His myopic viewpoints are so simpleminded and lack any substance.

In any other industry besides sports, this guy would be an absolute joke. He's almost as bad, if not worse than, Joe Theisman in football, or Bill Walton in basketball.

The real question is, are former players really qualified to become analysts and sportscasters. Last time I checked, most analysts and sportscasters who aren't former players need some kind of college degree or training. Howard Cossel is rolling over in his grave.

I think they are qualified to give it a try, but once they're in the booth, they should be judged as broadcasters and not as ex-players. Al Leiter, I thought, did a better Tim McCarver than Tim McCarver did in the playoffs last year, for instance. They can be good, but, more often than not, it seems, they just sound like the old drunk guy at the bar who won't stop blathering about the glory days adn have no interest in the present. They become boors.

But the schtick got old and, very soon, I just wanted him to call the game. Having lived all over the country, I really think the Bay Area has the best announcers, particularly the A's. How is Bill King not in the Hall of Fame?

are so bias. The only reason I watch Baseball Tonight is for the highlights and Peter Gammons.  
Without Gammons I get better baseball talk from Giants' fans.

I wish Morgan would shut his piehole. He has had a grudge against the A's for quite sometime and it has more to do with the fact that his bid to become an owner failed than any Moneyball theories.

I am surprise he found enough time to chat on ESPN. Afterall his nose is so far up Bonds backside I can't believe he can even breathe.

As far as I am concerned Morgan is damn lucky to be in the HOF. If he had not played for those Reds teams he would never have made it. He was a good player, but I would take some like Ryne Sandberg in a heartbeat over this toad.

These chats are so great...I actually miss them.

Does anyone else get a mental picture of an angry Joe Morgan, steam coming out of his ears, foaming at the mouth, his head just about to explode? Good stuff.

He's the best 2nd baseman ever, IMO, or at least one of the 4 best with Hornsby, Collins and Lajoie. Having Joe is a big part of what made those Reds teams so good. He's not just a HOF'er, he's an inner circle one. He's just a horrible analyst. And he's painted himself so far into a corner about the A's, he'll never be able to admit he was wrong. I think he has night terrors of the A's, and now the Dodgers, winning the Series.

He was a great ballplayer, and is entertaining to listen to on TV.

The fact that he likes to talk endlessly about a book that he obviously either hasn't read or doesn't understand may mean that he isn't the sharpest tack in the box, but it doesn't make him a bad person or morally inferior. If you don't like his analysis, just don't read it.

Talking about baseball with Morgan is like talking religion with a fundamentalist - the discussion isn't going to go anywhere. There are things that some people regard as an article of faith that you just aren't going to get them to look at objectively. A fundamentalist is never going to want to talk about the first Nicean council, and Joe Morgan is never going to want to talk about statistical analysis.

MLB.TV blacks out any nationally-broadcast ESPN games, so instead of having to listen to Joe Morgan, I just follow gameday. Thanks to this unintentionally brilliant setup, I haven't heard Joe Morgan in nearly 2 years, and I'm loving every minute of it.

joe morgan is entitled to his opinion, whether we like it or not. but some of the things he says,he needs to look hard at again. he says that you cant win after losing 2 MVPs and 2 top pitchers. well, thats not all we've lost over the years.how about losing izzy and replacing with koch? or when ppl said beane was crazy for giving up koch for foulke? how did that work out?we mightve lost giambi and tejada, but,  well, how great is giambi now what if we had signed him to a multiyear 80+ million contract. we'd be in financial he11 right now. and we have a ROY in crosby and to replace dye, we got swisher,hu can match or better dyes production frm last year with 13 million less.we also lost hudddy and mulder, but now we got yonger cheaper guys with great potential in haren,blanton, and meyer.

i think that ppl judge billy's moves too quickly.they just look at what we lost,and ignore what we gained.thats what morgan does.he doesnt see the big picture that billy sees,the picture we here at AN see.just give it anotheryear or two, when crosby is a top SS, haren and harden are cy young contenders,chavez is in the upper echelon of players and rackin up the gold gloves, and giambi is still rotting away.then everyone will say billy is a genius. just give it some time morgan,and u'll see how wrong u r

You're completely wrong. Joe Morgan may not be much of a commentator but he is the best, or one of the best, second basemen of all time.  In 1976, Morgan led the league in OBP (.444!), slugging percentage, stolen base percentage (60 of 69), sacrifice flies, and fewest grounded into double plays (2). Oh, and he won the gold glove. That wasn't even his best season. Ryne sandberg had some great seasons, but none of them were anything like that.

Ironically, Morgan is a typical Moneyball player: unspectacular average, hits an ok amount of home runs, but does extremely well with the statistics no one looks at, i.e. walks, double plays, etc. As A's fans we should be able to recognize how great .270 hitters can sometimes be.

Until he joined the A's at the very end (the Kong years, thus proving that Dave Kingman was a vortex of suckitude even Li'l Joe coudn't overcome) every team Joe joined became significantly better. The Reds in the 70's, the 1980 Astros, the '82 Giants, the '83 Phillies. If Joe had been on those mid-80's Cub teams, they wouldn't have been nearly as crappy. Which makes my frustration with analyst Joe Morgan all the more, um, frustrating. I really want to like the guy. I really do.

Anyway, cheers to all. It's fun to have a place to chat about all things Athletics related, especially during my exile in New York.

That being cool because my name is also Nick. About Hornsby, if Hornsby played today there's no way he wuold have been a second baseman.  He could maybe be stretched to play third, but he'd probably play first or left. When Hornsby played, the good fielders played third, the big hitters played second. There were very few double plays, so it wasn't important to be able to turn them, which Hornsby couldn't do well. Also, when Hornsby played, the country was small and rural, blacks weren't allowed to play, there were no players from Latin America. By the 1970s, the population parameter for potential major leaguers was almost twice as big as it was in the '30s, so Morgan put up great numbers against better competition. I think you could make an argument for either player, as well as Eddie Collins.

Also, about Morgan's teammates, part of the reason why Morgan was so great was because of his patience. He drew tons of walks, even though he had Tony Perez and Johnny Bench hitting behind him.  Isn't the fact that he walked so much, given the strength of the hitters behind him, a testament to what a great hitter he was?  

is that the jerk is FROM the Bay Area!!!

   Joe Morgan is a ignorant ass. Why does he work at ESPN again?

They've already dumped salaries -- Mulder and Hudson and Dye are gone! True

I think that they had the makings of a great team when they had Zito, Mulder, Hudson, Tejada and Giambi.  True

But when you let two MVPs go and two of the best pitchers in the league go, you're not really thinking about winning anymore. True, when combined with his sentence above. Some owners aren't satisfied with 3 and out. If you want to get further than winning divisions you need to hold onto more prime years of run producers especially. It is unbelieveable how many of you come to Kielty's rescue with all kinds of market value BS but are blind to the fact that Tejada's bat AND DISCIPLINE LAST YEAR puts the A's into the playoffs and just maybe, stops the Foulkes, Hudsons, Damons, etc from wanting to leave so fast.
The A's underlaying message if you are a player is have fun, enjoy, become a star, leave and get rewarded.
If you turnover your player roster every 2-3 years you are not serious about winning the rings.
Lil Joe knows it and now you do to.

• Win the Division
  
• Win the Playoffs
  
• Win the Series
  

2001 = 1 of 3
2002 = 1 of 3
2003 = 1 of 3
2004 = 0 of 3
2005 = ?????

... Lil Joe nailed you and you don't like his "direct hits"

PLAYERS win games.  Not theories. True, books don't hit grand slams, steal home, pitch shut-outs, or collect 150 RBIs. Books, theories, eyes, are all tools, ...so is common sense to those blessed with it.

we've had two teams here for more than 30 years.  I'd say it has supported two teams just fine. True  

BUT, I do believe the A's need a stadium to be able to compete with the Giants and others.  I don't know the context here, if it was increasing revenue I'd argue against a new stadium on that point, loan servicing can be expected to take monies away from payroll and quality players.

The Red Sox had the second highest payroll in baseball next to the Yankees!!! The most important play last year was Dave Roberts stealing second base in game four ... that is NOT the moneyball theory.  Without the stolen bae or just the THREAT of the stolen base Dave Roberts provided, the Red Sox would have been eliminated. True in that the BloSux are not run as Bill James would do it. Blo Sux are a hybrid; Fr-Yank-n-A's

• Lil Joe would be at 2B on most all time line-ups, his love of PLAYING the game supercedes analizing it.
• As a former player JM adds insights which many ANers would not appreciate because they emphasis the human element over math.
• Announcers are typically "personalities", Lil Joe has personality.

Last but not least: By AN's responses I'd say you listen to Lil Joe quite a bit.

My advice; Keep it up Joe, it's working.