A Fallen Hero

He might be right about some of the players he mentions, but it sounds more like the boy who cried wolf to me.

Jonathon

Stew noted that Canseco, for all his many, many flaws, isn't a liar. You combine that with the evidence of McGwire's physique and accomplishments, and with the way steroids got passed around in a sub rosa, you're-in-the-club kind of way, and yeah, I believe what Canseco wrote. I'd bet my mortgage that McGwire used steroids, and, as I pointed out in another thread earlier, McGwire's response in th "Chronicle" is a cleverly crafted non-denial denial.

Frankly, I'll take Canseco over McGwire. Canseco's story is the stuff of Shakespearean tragedy, as blez so nicely puts it, and also therefore profoundly human.

McGwire's story is cold and icy; he's no less of a cheater and a sleazebag than Canseco is, but continues to shut himself off and pretend that he's above scrutiny. And he's sullied the most beloved record in baseball. Canseco, though, seems to be compelled to live out loud, to tell us exactly who he is and what he did. He's honest, to a certain extent, and is, at the very least, coming clean about it.

I really, really don't want to hear any more about Canseco's motivation for writing the book, by the way. All writers are motivated by the desire to make money: blez is, Shakespeare was, I am, Tennessee Williams was, Joe Namath was. OK?

Oh well. it is what it is.

I'm not sure I understand all the indignation over this.  Every athlete "written" book is a grab for a quick buck...Canseco's motives aren't anything new.

The book will be one-sided and narrow in its focus and isn't likely to win any awards for literature.  (See: Pete Rose, Rickey Henderson, Lenny Dykstra autobios...)

Does Canseco have any credibility when he names names?  Probably not.  But, neither do guys like LaRussa who say "I know Mac and he'd NEVER take them.  He was all-natural."

Please.

It's not like this guy is an accountant whose big story is that he once slept with a hooker at a convention in San Antonio. Is there any way Canseco could write an honest account of his life without being sensational?

Finally, yeah, he's exposed some other people. If they didn't want to be exposed as lying cheater, probably they shouldn't have become lying cheater.

But, it is also important to keep in mind that back in the 80's and early 90's it is not like steroids were illegal and to my knowledge most of them were not against the rules of baseball at that time.  I can fully see players talking with Jose after his 40-40 season and getting his training methods etc., and doing what it took to improve.

But he could hit homeruns.

Drugs tear people up, tear people down. They really do stunt your growth, and I don't mean forearm size. You know this isn't just about steroids, it's probably as much about cocaine or whatever else he partied (parties?) with.

I have compassion for the man, but I don't trust much of what comes out of an addict's mouth. If you know some, you'll know what I mean.

Yeah, Canseco is a troubled guy. Yeah, I wouldn't want him to date my sister. Yeah, his word should not be taken for granted. But this doesn't come in a vacuum. It comes in the middle of a flood of evidene that the top HR hitters in the game over the last 15 years got that way by cheating. Wishing that McGwire and Sosa, et. al. were hard-working, honest guys who wouldn't dream of cheating doesn't make it so, and pointing it out doesn't make me or anyone else a pessimist.

As for the cheating thing, you take your position, I'll take mine. I feel a lot more comfortable with mine; yours strikes me as rather legalistic.

Then in 1989 I had gone on a family trip to Chicago, my parents planned the trip around Oakland being there so I could see a couple more games. We were staying at the same hotel as the team but if you wanted autographes you had to stand outside so that is what I did. I was able to get autographs from every Athletic that came out the door including players/coaches that normally didn't give autographs (Reggie Jackson and Rickey Henderson). I was shocked when Reggie came out the doors, I didn't even know he was involved with the team at the time.

Then it happened, like it was slow motion, the doors opened and Jose Canseco came out. I was so excited, picture this, a 12 year old kid wearing an A's shirt and hat holding a deck of cards in his hand in downtown Chicago. I said Mr. Canseco can I have an autograph. He looked at me and kept walking, I began to walked behind him a few steps and said please Mr. Canseco can I have an autograph. He turn to me and said "Don't you dare follow me kid or I will beat you up".

My heart sunk, I was so upset, I couldn't even cry. In a matter of 12 words he had gone from my hero to the worst person I could have imagined.

From that day on I know him for who he really was.

As everyone has already mentioned, there's going to be truth and sensationalism in this book. The problem will be trying to tell the difference(apart from the 80% thing). I'm not going to bother. This is an issue that people are going to argue about forever...

I maintain that it is very naive to think that McGwire didn't tread the narrow (and oft-changing) line between banned and unbanned substances in his bodybuilding.  I also still don't care much that he did.  Steroids are unsafe and shouldn't be used, but I don't see the need to reverse records or other things of that nature.  It's common knowledge, in some cases, and commonly assumed in others that these guys juiced.  Public opinion is punishment enough, in other words.

Look at OJ...I don't know anyone who truly thinks he was innocent, but he walks free anyway.  True justice isn't always possible, and sometimes life just isn't fair.

as far as i'm concerned, my nostalgia for him went out the window when he said he'd go in the hall as a cardinal.  that's crap.  he played less than one third of his career there.  and since when are palmerio, juan gonee and pudge off limits.  i think dave stewart is the best barometer of canseco's truthfulness.  people can question canseco, but stew is beyond reproach.  when i think back to those times, he and not mcgwire or canseco was the backbone of the team much like tim hudson was from 99 - 04.

If McGwire used, he would have to be crazy to sue Canseco. I'm betting we see some sort of statement at some point saying that "Of course Canseco is making these things up about me, but I'm going to take the high road and protect my family and not take this to court."

McGwire was always bigger, what about 220-225 as a rookie when that was considered huge in MLB.  This isn't a Bonds or Sosa where he went from 175 to 240.  49 homeruns back then too...he hit more later on yes.  If he did use you mean to tell me that his moonshot homeruns were mostly due to steriods?  Not sure if a drug can cause the ball to travel 50 feet farther but I'm getting off the point here...  

McGwire was my favorite player growing up by far, maybe my only idol if I ever had one.  Does that make me blind to the fact he might of used?  Nope.  It crossed my mind over the last couple years with whats been going on in baseball.  If its true it doesn't change his status with me totally although I would definately look down upon him for it.  Like I said, it wouldn't suprise me....either way.

But to just take Cansecos word for it from this book right away I just can't do.  And his word vs. other players/people with a bit more credability is a tough sell.  And you have to realize some of what he is saying is pure b.s., while some is true...just have to sift through it.  Please, take it with a grain of salt.  JMHO.

It was touched on in a previous post, regardless of steriods and other supplements, players in the last 20 years lifted weights...look at the NBA.  Guys used to be skinny now so many are very built.  Steriods?  No...much better eating/work out habits.  Same with baseball, steroids or not.

McGwire certainly used supplements, until I have some real evidence or at least one other player step up to back up Jose, I think he just used supplements, perhaps some were borderline steriods but I think hes smarter than Jose in what he chose to put in his body.  

I wouldn't neccessarily knock having idols either...when you are a kid and love sports/certain players there is nothing wrong with that.  Parents should help their kids pick who to idolize if anyone, choose the right players.  Don't idolize guys like Jose, who were known to be doing stupid things when he was in his prime.

Or are you going to take their word or a guy who so abused his talents that he ended up a baseball laughstock. Someone who squandered his millions. Someone who beat up his wife. Someone busted for bar fights and arrested for leaving a gun in his unlocked Ferrari. Someone who Dave Stewart says was seen with contempt by his 24 teammates. Someone Stew said was so unreliable that he told TLR that he won't pitch in a WS game if Canseco was in the lineup.

So, At the risk of being redundant, who are you gonna believe?

As has been noted, Canseco is virtually broke. Now if he didn't make his steroid accusations, would anyone buy a book by that ignoramus?

"In the last few years, Jose's name has appeared more often in police blotters than line-ups."

As for TLR's defense of McGwire, Big Mac is retired and TLR has no untoward reason for defending him. Again, those of us who have dealt with this exception manager and definitive future HOF'er know what a staright-shooter he is. Tony knows just how hard Big Mac worked to condition himself and the fact that Mac as a raw rookie hit 49 dingers speaks to the likelihood that his experience enabled him to ultimately hit 70 HRs sans what baseball then demeaned illegal substances.

What has Tony to gain from his defence of McGwire. TLR reached the WS again last year and has a contract extension. And Big Mac is no longer on his roster...

Canseco is a scumbucket, a lazy SOB held in contempt by Dave Stewart and just about everyone on the team with the possible exception of the A's other Mr. Ego, Rickey Henderson. Indeed, in his autobiography "Loose As A Goose," the great Goose Gossage says Rickey ("the worst, the most selfish teammate I ever had") was a bad influence on Canseco, leading to Jose's lousy team attitude and, perhaps, lazy work ethos whereby he got bigger not through working out but rather, through chemistry.

Who can doubt TLR when he said that Jose would have been bound for greatness if his arrogance and ego didn't get in the way...

And now Jose doesn't care if he burns the bridges for any friendships he might have had left after nearly two decades in baseball. Jose is a whore...
he'll do anything for money and his self-serving ego. Could there be any jock who is a bigger jerk?

But that era of the A's didn't measure up to the 70's teams at all.  Dave Steward had it, Carney Lansford had it, Dave Henderson had it, and I think Rickey had the ability to turn it up in big games.  The Bash Brothers tended to fail in the big games.

I was standing behind section 122 when McGwire hit the home run off Jay Howell to win game 3 I think.  That was a great memory.

I guess I'm a realist.  They were just too huge not to notice it whatever the "story" was.  When I heard McGwire lifted weights before the game, I knew he had to be juiced.  How else could you recover fast enough?  Look at Chavez.  I bet he's NOT on steriods.  He looks athletic and strong, not puffed out.  It's obvious once they get that big.  I think anyway.

1.  I find the argument "If I want to know about what steroid users do, I'll just ask a steroid user."  Yes, I'm sure Canseco knows other players who used.  Does that mean he's telling the truth?  No, Jose Canseco will say anything that helps him make a buck, and the fact is that if he says McGwire took steroids in the book he'll sell more copies than if he says McGwire didn't.  That doesn't mean McGwire didn't take steroids, but it doesn't mean he did either.  Credibility is always going to be an issue, and Terry Steinbach has more credibility with me than Jose Canseco.
   
2.  McGwire had to have taken steroids - look how big he is.  That argument is completely devoid of any logic.  Just because someone is big, huge even, doesn't necessarily mean that he took steroids.  Even small guys take steroids (i.e. Jim Miller, former quarterback for the Bears served a 4 game suspension for steroids).  It is possible to get as big as McGwire is by natural means.  Sure he took supplements, but that, by itself, does not prove he used steroids.
   
3.  For me, the frustration is this - proving the negative is near impossible.  McGwire has said in prior interviews that he never took steroids.  Now this comes out, and he's accused of "carefully crafting a denial."  There will always be conspiracy theorists out there, but I find that argument less than persuasive at this time.
   
4.  Jose Canseco likes to take shortcuts.  This much is evident, and there are multiple sources to back it up.  Steinbach and Stewart both decried his work ethic.  LaRussa I'll leave out because I think he's more motivated by a personal hatred of Canseco.  If Jose has taken shortcuts in the past, he'll likely take them again in the future.  Taking a shortcut in writing a book would mean making statement more sensational than they really are.  Is that lying?  To some of us, yes it is.  To others it is not (to some oral sex is not sex after all :-) ).
   
5.  Dave Stewart - Stewart never said Canseco was telling the truth.  All he said was that he never knew Canseco to lie in the past.  That certainly gives more credence to what Canseco is saying now, but its hardly confirmation of truth.  I found it interesting to learn that Stewart went to LaRussa in the 90 World Series and said he wouldn't pitch if Canseco was in the lineup.  I had never heard that before.  Any thoughts on that?

The notion that anyone who DOESN'T believe what  Canseco says, that McGwire(not McGuire ;) used steriods is an idiot makes the person saying that sound like an idiot, IMO.  

Credibility is huge, sorry...Canseco doesn't have much of it.  Sure he played with these guys but he is known to spout his mouth off....I won't use the argument hes saying it to make a buck, as mentioned he probably  got most of the book money up front.  But you know what his claims do?  Puts him in the spotlight, if he doesn't make these claims...its a backpage footnote that his book is coming out, etc.

That said, I wouldn't be suprised if McGwire or some of those other players did use, but I need much more information than whatever comes out of Jose's mouth, I'd hope everyone else does too.  

The fact Big Mac hit a ton of homeruns doesn't neccisitate that he juiced up.  Babe Ruth hit more homeruns than teams did in his era, he must of used steriods :rolleyes:.  

Taking Canseco for his word is foolish.