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How Good is Tony LaRussa?

BP published an interesting, although not very satisfying, look at Tony LaRussa's career.  I didn't realize that if he wins 80 more games, he will have the third most wins of all-time, behind Connie Mack and John McGraw.  

BP compares his past teams' Pythagorean projections for win totals with the teams' actual number of wins.  Managers that have more wins than are projected are good managers.  I'm skeptical that is the best way to determine how effective a manager is.  By that formula, Macha was a freakin' genius last year, since the A's won five more games than projected.  

LaRussa won only 16 games more than projected over his entire career, which suggests that he is actually an average manager.  Or, it could also mean managers don't have much of an effect on games.  Or, it could mean that this is not a good way of evaluating managers.  Here is what BP says:

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3749

"Genius?: That Tony LaRussa, he's been around a long time. This year will mark his tenth year at the helm of the Cards, and that's after years managing the White Sox and the A's before arriving by the Mississippi. He's moved up to seventh on the all-time list for managerial wins, and with 80 wins this year, he'll vault all the way to number three, behind only Connie Mack and John McGraw. This offseason, he signed a deal that will keep him in the dugout at Busch Stadium through the 2007 season.

So, is the guy any good? How could we tell? What about looking at the difference between his team's projected wins and its actual wins? Wouldn't we expect that a great manager's teams would consistenly outperform their Pythagorean projection, owing to the effects of his acumen and wisdom?

Year    Team     W   L   RS   RA   PytW   Delta  Finish

1980    CHA     70  90  587  722    65      5       5
1981    CHA     54  52  476  423    59     -5     3/6
1982    CHA     87  75  786  710    89     -2       3
1983    CHA     99  63  800  650    96      3       1
1984    CHA     74  88  679  736    75     -1       6
1985    CHA     85  77  736  720    83      2       3
1987    OAK     81  81  806  789    83     -2       3
1988    OAK    104  58  800  620    100     4    AL 1
1989    OAK     99  63  712  576    97      2    WS 1
1990    OAK    103  59  733  570    99      4    AL 1
1991    OAK     84  78  760  773    79      5       4
1992    OAK     96  66  745  672    89      7       1
1993    OAK     68  94  715  846    69     -1       7
1994    OAK     51  63  549  588    53     -2       2
1995    OAK     67  77  730  761    69     -2       4
1996    STL     88  74  759  706    86      2       1
1997    STL     73  89  689  708    79     -6       4
1998    STL     83  79  810  782    84     -1       3
1999    STL     75  86  809  838    78     -3       4
2000    STL     95  67  887  771    91      4       1
2001    STL     93  69  814  684    94     -1       1
2002    STL     97  65  787  648    95      2       1
2003    STL     85  77  876  796    88     -3       3
2004    STL    105  57  855  659    100     5    NL 1

We're only including full seasons, so 1986, when LaRussa split time between Chicago and Oakland is left out. PytW is the wins predicted by the Pythagorean Theorem, using 1.83 as the exponent.
That's 10 division titles, four pennants and one world title in 24 full seasons of filling out lineup cards and calling sac bunts. Over the course of all those thousands of games, LaRussa's teams have, in fact, outperformed their Pythagorean projections...by a grand total of 16 wins. Which, frankly, isn't that many.

Now, before anyone gets all hysterical, we'll admit this is really a toy, and not a way of rigorously analyzing the effect of a manager. But it does illustrate a point: the genius manager might be the most overstated cliché in the game.

At this point, we know the optimal strategy in many game situations--it's hard to imagine a manager gaining a huge edge there. The idea of the Wizard of Oz pulling levers and besting his counterpart in a battle of wits is simply outdated, Lloyd McClendon aside. This doesn't mean that some managers don't do a better job of game management than others (Dusty Baker, I'm looking at you, dude), and certainly, the managment of a pitching staff is still a big deal (you again, Dusty).

What statistics can't capture is what is increasingly the real job of a manager: dealing with people. This is the era of manager as soother, facilitator, confidant, ego-stroker and vibe-generator. Those aren't things that you can measure or quantify. Perhaps when it comes to managers, intangibles are what matter."
 

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Tony LaRussA...
is the father of the modern bullpen.

Great manager.

by Kaybeejay on Feb 10, 2005 10:57 AM PST reply actions  

Is that
necessarily a good thing?  Now I have to watch three pitching changes in the seventh inning and two lefties in the bullpen.
Manny is a NTAC

by salb918 on Feb 10, 2005 11:05 PM PST up reply actions  

How many managers survive as long...
...as Tony does?

Only one: John McGraw. (Connie Mack doesn't count, for obvious reasons.) That alone should put him in the Hall.

I don't know if he invented the modern bullpen, but he was certainly one of the guys who did, and that's pretty significant.

I do think he missed a huge opportunity, though. He's clearly established himself as a manager who wants to surround himself with a lot of veteran players. It's a strategy that's worked for him, and I don't think he deserves criticism for it, but it would have been interesting to see him stay in Oakland and work with the kids who came through Oakland in the last few years.

by jrbh on Feb 10, 2005 11:10 AM PST reply actions  

Larussa
started the 1 batter save...so yes he did.

by oakwin2004 on Feb 10, 2005 11:14 AM PST reply actions  

the most important skill
larussa has as a manager is being in the right place at the right time.

when chicago started going down the crapper he landed with the a's. when the a's started going into the crapper he landed with st.l. the big difference between chic/a's and st.l is st.l will never run out of, or cut back on, salary.  

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 10, 2005 11:16 AM PST reply actions  

big e
sometimes i wonder abt you..lol when larussa came to oakland it was larussa who got eck and moved him to the pen, it was larussa who wanted stew...it was larussa etc etc.....at least in oakland it was larussa...

by oakwin2004 on Feb 10, 2005 11:20 AM PST reply actions  

pitching and the bullpen
dave duncan has saved la russa's ass over the years. i have nothing against tony-i just think he has been very opportunistic...which is a nice "skill" to have!
"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 10, 2005 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

lump me in on some of that
"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 10, 2005 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

True
he won in 89 obviously
gibson's jack might have rattled the 27 yanks
and fricken eric fox ruined it in 92..i hated taht guy...

by oakwin2004 on Feb 10, 2005 11:27 AM PST reply actions  

My problem with Pythagorean
A good manager helps increase the number of runs scored, while decreasing the runs allowed, or in Pythagoreanese, increase the spread betweens runs scored and runs allowed.  Besides raw talent of the players, there are many managerial decisions that go into this spread: when to pull struggling pitchers, lineups, etc.  

If a team does not win as many games as projected by this spread, the manager gets no credit for good managing: instead, he's considered a bad manager.  That's my problem with BP's analysis using only Pythagorean here: it does not consider the manager's role in generating runs, or minimizing runs allowed.  

Or am I just missing something?

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 10, 2005 11:29 AM PST reply actions  

yeah...
if performance-above-Pythagorean became the tool by which managers were judged, they'd have even more incentive to manage badly and play smallball every inning, because the one-run win would be what they would be looking for every game
"When I went to church that same Sunday, I picked up a 2x4. I went up to the pulpit and clubbed the preacher in the head..."--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Feb 10, 2005 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

PLUS
doesn't the fact that AL and NL play by different two set of rules (and therefore two different in-game philosophy) have some baring on any outcome?

i ask because i don't know.

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 10, 2005 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Probably Overated
LaRussa was a genius when he put Eck in the pen and salvaged Stew - a pitching genius. Since then he has done nothing to further earn the pitching genius medal.............the Cardinal pitching loked B.A.D. in the W.S. He did not invent the 1 inning save - Lee Smith did it before LaRussa started.
It can be stated LaRussa has always had the horses- Canseco, McGuire and Ricky - to Pujols and Roland.
Hard to believe but when the A's were bashing they had the highest budget in baseball - what 15 years ago. Times have changed.
LaRussa is a good manager who went were the budget was. And he saves dogs and cats. He will no doubt go into the Hall of Fame.

by Aparicio11 on Feb 10, 2005 11:29 AM PST reply actions  

I said
he started the one batter save. btw did u guys read that stew told larussa he wldnt pitch game 4 of the 90 deries if canseco started? thats kinda crazy.....

by oakwin2004 on Feb 10, 2005 11:33 AM PST reply actions  

Valuing a manager
Last week I was thinking about how to value a manager, and I more or less came to the same methodology as BP --  over enough years to confidently predict a trend, any wins over projected wins would have to be attributed to the "non-baseball players whose stats don't contribute to the projected wins."  This is different, though, from the manager, because there are other people involved with the team who could affect the actual number of wins who aren't the manager.  Case in point -- Ken Macha, whose five wins over projected wins are partly due to Billy Beane, and maybe Ron Washington, etc.  So LaRussa was certainly an innovator with the bullpen, but it's too hard statistically to separate his contribution from others'.  Going a bit further, given that his extra wins are marginal with several different teams, implying that these statistics are independent of bench coach, management, etc., I agree that the "genius manager" is overrated.

by sec119 on Feb 10, 2005 11:39 AM PST reply actions  

the irony of this analysis...
is that worse managing would make the manager look better here.  If by micromanaging (the first title that comes to mind when thinking of LaRussa is micromanager, not "genius manager"), a team wins some games by a close score that they actually could have won by a wider margin with a better, sacrifice-less approach, then the manager improves his standing against the Pythagorean model...this is flawed, but I can't think of any other method that isn't.
"When I went to church that same Sunday, I picked up a 2x4. I went up to the pulpit and clubbed the preacher in the head..."--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Feb 10, 2005 11:56 AM PST reply actions  

It's tough to tease apart
players' contributions to a team from the manager's contributions to a team.  For example, I started to think that we could look at how successful a team is after a manager pulls his pitchers, since that is often considered the most important managerial decision.  But then again, you would have to account for the quality of the team's relief pitchers, since managers blessed with good bullpens would be more likely to win games than those with poor bullpens.

Sabermetrics has a long way to go here.  

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 10, 2005 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Another way to look at it
Most of LaRussa's team have played up to expectations, if not a little better, over the course of his career. I'd argue that that kind of consistency is greatly under-valued using BP's method.

But I also agree with some of the above sentiment that Dave Duncan is LaRussa's secret Ace.

by grover on Feb 10, 2005 2:06 PM PST reply actions  

All-time Wins List
Here is a link to a list of the managers with the most wins.  Surprisingly, Art Howe is ranked 41st!

http://baseball-reference.com/managers/

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 10, 2005 2:57 PM PST reply actions  

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