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Why Loaiza?

[EDITOR'S NOTE - This is one of the best diaries I've ever seen on AN. I want to give all kinds of props to Lowcountryjoe for this one and it deserves the front page. I'm kicking myself for not realizing this myself. Great work, LCJ. - Blez]

To be sure, there are many of you that contribute to and read AN that understand the Loaiza signing or are at least accepting of it.  But some of you are probably shaking your heads and thinking that Beane overpaid.  This diary is directed at the `head-shakers'.

Statistics make for weird animals.  One could use a particular statistic to justify just about anything.  Be prepared, I'm going to attempt to do just that!

ERA, K/BB, IP, Win/Loss, etcetera, they're all good.  But for my money (though I've got none personally riding on it) the number of quality starts on the year is the best measure of a starting pitcher's effectiveness.  Why?  Well, because it really gets to the heart of the matter...encompassing total innings pitched (have got to be healthy), earned runs allowed, and best of all, consistency as evidenced by less variability throughout the course of the season.

There are some who smirk at the quality start because it doesn't leave enough room for gray area (for instance, the starter who goes 8+ while giving up 4 earned).  But in this era of relief specialization in baseball, isn't the ball expected to be turned over after the 7th anyway?  So, if a starter goes six (though not quite seven) and gives up three or less runs in a game which he's started, isn't that pretty damned good by today's standards; particularly in the American League?  I certainly think so.  But there are others that point to that minimum requirement and say, rightfully, that this leads to a mediocre 4.50 ERA - "Unacceptable!" they say.  "Who gives a crap?" I say, "Didn't that start just give your favorite team an excellent opportunity to win?"  It's at this point that the nay-sayers may bring up how that a mediocre start like that cannot quite match up against the more elite starters in the league and what they'll accomplish during their start.  Okay, fair enough, but how many times does a team face an elite starter during a season.  I guess that it all depends on how one defines elite but I'll be generous and say 40 times.  And of those 40 times, let's say, to be generous again, a " meet the minimums" quality start won't get the job done 30 out of those 40 times (that's still 10 wins).

Are we all right so far?  So how about the other 122 games?  Is it fair to say that a quality start will result in a win about 80% of the time one is pitched in those other 122 games - games against the non-elite starters?  That's tough because even the non-elite starters throw them every so often...and then, in those instances, it's who gives up less runs.  Anyhow, it's all conjecture and rampant speculation as to how often this or that happens but even the most ardent trashers of the quality start would be quite impressed, I imagine, to see their favorite pitchers toss them on a regular basis.  I certainly would prefer to see the 5 to 4 victory (allowing for the bullpen to give up a run or the occasion unearned run) as opposed to the 7+ to 6+ clunker.

Which, awkwardly, leads me back to Loaiza and why his signing should be celebrated by AN.  Loaiza was 6th on the list (for the entire MLB roster of SPs) in quality starts last season.  He had 24 QS of 34 starts - 71%.

How does that match up with the remaining starters on the Athletics roster?  Well, let's see (QS/QS%/MLB ranking for QS):

Blanton: 22/67/t-14
Haren: 22/65/t-14
Zito: 21/60/t-23
Harden: 10/53/t-108
Saarloos: 10/37/t-108
Kennedy (2005 full year): 7/29/t-137

But, to be balanced, not all can be said to be rosy on the consistency front regarding Loaiza since 2000.  Loiza's other seasons look like this:

2004: 8/30/t-117
  1. 27/79/t-1
  2. 12/48/t-81
  3. 15/50/t-61
  4. 16/52/t-42

Maybe Loaiza can break out of this mini Saberhagen-like pattern and get his shit together in the green & gold.

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AMEN to Quality starts
or times you give your team a chance to win.
Why don't they just lick their fingers?

by novaoakland on Dec 3, 2005 12:31 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

GOOD JOB!!!!
Now I really like Loaiza's deal....

by Olijerez77 on Dec 3, 2005 12:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's Loaiza
Not Loiza.

by OaktownTribesman on Dec 3, 2005 12:50 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

like Beck sang ...
... "I'm a Loiza, baby, so why don't you kill me" ...

(And, yes, of course, I am required to add: "In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey" ... )

@('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2005 1:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

butane in your veins?
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 3, 2005 2:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and I'm out to cut the junkie
I <3 Macha. I trust Beane. Blanton isn't fat. Go A's.

by pbruins92 on Dec 3, 2005 2:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

plastic eyeballs
spray paint the vegetables
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 3, 2005 2:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ewww.... eyeballs...
those things gross me out. Like, just a can of eyeballs.... <gag>

Did you hear that the new sexual craze is eyeball licking?????

Grossssssss.

by GreenNGoldGirl on Dec 3, 2005 3:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ouch.

by OaktownTribesman on Dec 3, 2005 3:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm trying to think of something gross to say.
But I can't think of anything worse.
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 3, 2005 4:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How about......
you should saw that one coming.....
"People ask me what I do all winter without baseball. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby

by alox on Dec 3, 2005 8:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sooooooy un per-di-do!
I prefer Midnite Vultures to Mellow Gold, but still good to see Beck references wherever possible.
"You can throw your cocks if I don't care!" - Iggy Pop

by AlamedaAphid on Dec 4, 2005 9:50 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One is a starter, ...one is a spot starter
2005     Saarloos  Loaiza
Pitches  abs  avg  abs  avg
01-15    200  270  304  237
16-30    186  242  331  227
31-45    143  301  368  313
46-60    131  214  359  262
61-75    129  333  372  282
76-90     87  379  323  285
91-105    17  294  256  254
106-120    2    0   96  229
121-135    0    0    7    0
  • Saarloos can lose effectiveness after 60 pitches but Loaiza is good at 100+
  • Saarloos has great value to the A's and others because he can be effective in spot starts.
"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 3, 2005 1:28 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry,I had to leave...
- These numbers verify Loaisa's QS vs Saarloos & Harden

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7180&type=pitching3&three=1

- Additionally the upgrades in defense & stadium removes maybe 0.5 from Loaisa's ERA.

The real reason this acquisition bothers me & most of AN is that it makes Zito appear tradeable whereas BB would not have had that option pre-Loaisa. I'm greedy. I want Z, L & Saarloos.

Hopefully BB uses his gray matter and the Fisher's throw him some green matter and the A's trade others to obtain a power spike in 2006.

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 3, 2005 11:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cogency
Excellent argument for the value of quailty starts.  You have changed my opinion of the stat.  I used to think it too highly valued, but not anymore. Well written piece.

by conniemack on Dec 3, 2005 1:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Loiaza's appeal
is the likelihood of a high % of "quality starts," then the A's just need to make sure they build a team that can win quality starts, whether they are "great" or "barely" quality starts. This means having two things:
  1. A bullpen that can dominate for 3 innings if it is given any sort of a lead. Check.
  2. An offense that can consistently score 4+ runs in a game.
The jury's still way out on the second one. Yet another reason to get a "big bat": It may make Chavez a better hitter, and it may make Loiaza a better pitcher...
Nico

by Nico on Dec 3, 2005 1:36 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

8 more wins and the A's win the division
2005 & 2004.

It wasn't for the pitching
It wasn't for the defense
It wasn't for the OBP

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 3, 2005 11:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well said
Nico, AND Joe.  I always thought the quality start was a little over valued, however your diary puts it in a new light.  Well done.
Nico, I agree completely.  If we're looking for a 5-4 in April, May or September, we could be SOL unless that big bat is added...

by IndianaAsfan on Dec 4, 2005 12:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

here here
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin, Seattle Mariners

by Helloooo 1st on Dec 3, 2005 2:41 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm a head shaker
And I think I've made my reasons pretty clear. But I must give luv to the QS. I appreciate its simplicity in creating an even way to judge pitchers.

Gotta hand it to Billy, he made a mistake in overpaying for Loaiza but he corrected that mistake by sending the market for SP spiralling into the stratosphere. That move might end up being the greatest of his career.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 3, 2005 4:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that "mistake" and correction...
...were one in the same move, so there really wasn't a mistake to correct. I'm convinced that boosting the value of his tradeable stock (i.e., Zito) was Beane's intention all along, by giving other GMs fewer decent free-agent-SP options. That's much, much more of a Beane-style move than signing a name free agent to a questionnable amount of money. (And even then, I don't think that Loaiza will be around for his 3rd year, so his salary could be more in the $5.5M-$6M/yr range for the first two, if he's even here that long.)
Whatever value Loiaza can contribute over league average (if any) is a bonus. If Zito doesn't get traded, then we're still stronger than we were.
username

by spal on Dec 3, 2005 8:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look
any other team signs Loaiza to that contract and AN laughs at them. It's a bad contract that looks better as the rest of the pitching market spins out of control. It's a two wrongs don't make a right kinda thing.

Furthermore, the Loaiza signing and its subsequent push on the market makes it nearly impossible for Beane to sign Zito to an extension. If Loaiza at $7 million annual can push Byrd to $7 million than Burrnett is going to be looking at $11-12 million which means Zito, at a home town discount, is looking at $12 million annual minimum.

So, do we let Zito walk after 06 or do we trade him?

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 3, 2005 9:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We would laugh...
...because for any other team, Loaiza would be signed to fill a need. Depending on that team's level of need, $21M/3yrs is likely either grudgingly acceptable (KC-level or comparable), ridiculous (anywhere from TX up to CLE), or believable because it's the Yankees and they spend whatever they want on whomever they want.

But we didn't need Loaiza. Our rotation was fine going into '06 with what we had. Therefore, Beane's motivation for signing him was different from any other team's, even one with good pitching because clubs like the Astros and Angels aren't in the same position of having a starter to shop around. We were in a unique situation that nobody but Beane realized. Loaiza's contract wasn't based on cash demand, it was based on player demand. Therefore, because of (what I believe to be) the reasons behind it, it was a good contract. Beane didn't agree to pay up to $21M for a pitcher, he agreed to pay up to $21M (and likely less) primarily for better prospects and/or a better current hitter. That we get a halfway-decent starter as a result is nice, but ancillary.

Say there was a trade on the table of Zito for a bat and two prospects, and the other GM were asking for $6M on top of Zito, or else he will offer a contract to Loaiza (again, I'm figuring Loaiza won't be here for all 3 years, so his cost to us is lower over the first 2). Instead of paying that other GM $6M, Beane goes and pays it to Loaiza instead to play for the A's. Now the other GM has even fewer choices than to trade for Zito, can't ask for cash, and Beane can demand better players/prospects. Instead of giving money to another team, he gave it to Loaiza, getting a potentially decent starter and strengthening his bargaining position at the same time. It's got much less to do with on-field production by Loaiza, and more to do with what he can get in a trade.

However, I have no idea if Zito will be traded or not. In fact, I'd guess that if he is traded, it won't be now but before the deadline. Zito is a durable guy, so he's not likely to get injured by that time, and if a team needs a starter, they'll be even more desperate because the season will be halfway over and Beane can get more in return. And like I said, if he's not traded, then we're still a stronger team because Loaiza can contribute something as a player (especially since his expectations aren't that of a team that would have signed him strictly looking for pitching). By the end of the year, Beane can even trade Loaiza instead to a team that might not be able to afford Zito. Then we're rid of his cost to us and maybe able to afford Barry ourselves. Worst case scenario, Zito walks, we get a draft pick to offset the one we lost for Loaiza, and we're still a good team with a good future.

username

by spal on Dec 3, 2005 9:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huge flaw in that logic
In real life this mystery GM that asks/demands $6 million from Beane gets hung up on. You are trying to create a scenario that limits Beane to one choice: that he has to trade Zito to this person.

I'm not saying Loaiza is without value. Even Jason Kendall had value last year. What I'm saying is based on 2005 peformance Loaiza offers a marginal improvement over Saarloos. At $6 million dollars you'd hope for more than a marginal upgrade. That's the Yankee way of doing business.

Shoot, what am I saying. At least they made the playoffs.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 3, 2005 11:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My guess is we can't get BB's preferred
young power bat without trading pitching.
Loaiza adds the depth that enables us to trade key pitchers for that bat and still compete.

Sidenote: BB does not add the fanfare following the Loaisa signing unless L is going to stick.

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 3, 2005 11:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That scenario...
...was only meant to illustrate that Loaiza's contract was intended to affect the market more than our rotation. Loaiza's upgrade over Saarloos is marginal, absolutely, but that was not the point of signing him. His marginal upgrade is, like I said, a bonus. The upgrade in power over the pitching market was much more than marginal, and that's what Beane wanted all along.

Think about it -- have you ever known Beane to hand out a contract like this purely for the on-field skills/production of a player like Loaiza? That's not his style at all. I think Beane thought that the best value in the money he had available lay in making his position stronger, so that's what he did without detracting from the team.

username

by spal on Dec 4, 2005 12:20 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I respect that but I think BB is changing the
roster with more moves coming.

Next moves probably hinged on the acqisition of Loaiza.

About the time of this signing BB announced he intended to talk to Zito's agent about an extension.

That talk can have two outcomes;

  1. They write up a contract. (The bucks would go up next year and thereafter. The A's have money clearing to do it)
  2. They don't write up a contract and Zito leaves sometime between now and October.
I know new ownership can  re-sign Zito and bring on bats. Last years salary was projected at $59 million and only reached $54. That carry-over and trading salaried players for prospects can clear enough for $9 million in contracts.

Add'l monies are expected from revenue sharing and luxury taxes (Thank you George!)

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 4, 2005 1:03 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's an ugly list
"have you ever known Beane to hand out a contract like this purely for the on-field skills/production of a player like Loaiza?"

Do Dye and Redman ring a bell?

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 4:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be fair
Beane originally traded for Dye, and there was no way to predict he would break his leg on a foul, which affected his performance in the future. However, the original contract was still too much. And Redman wasn't great, but he wasn't a disaster, either.

I should have worded that differently, though. Beane has made some mistakes, as you point out, but bloated contracts atypical for him. I think the moves he's made that have worked in the past afford him the benefit of the doubt, until bad moves become a habit or until he makes a mistake that irrevocably cripples a season.

username

by spal on Dec 4, 2005 11:09 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am being fair
Beane signed Dye to an extension AFTER the broken leg.

Redman begat Kendall. Which is going from bad to worse in contracts.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 11:28 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My mistake
I didn't recall that about Dye. That is pretty indefensible. Hard for me to quantitatively justify trading for Kendall's contract, either, but that one I don't feel so bad about.
However, I still stand by giving Beane the benefit of the doubt based on his overall success, and I still think Loaiza was a power play instead of just getting a player.
username

by spal on Dec 4, 2005 12:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just curious, Grover
...but do you think Billy is a bad GM? Or that there is a better option out there? You're quite critical of many minute details... Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in Philly looking at Julio Santana as my 8th inning pitcher and am very curious as to your thoughts for a BB replacement... Maybe I'm misreading you terribly? If so, no offense meant.

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 2:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Beane is a good GM
One of the best in fact.

But I don't drink the Kool-Aid and "In Billy We Trust" has never worked for me. When he makes a good move I praise him. When he Fucks up I call him on it. And when he makes a questionable move I question.

Not that he answers that often. :)

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 3:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way
You're living the good life if you think that 3 years/$21 million for a 34 year old pitcher is a "minute detail".
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 3:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm?
Better than 18 M /3 yr for a 38 year old closer, no?

I really don't think baseball contracts are really relative to my income, which is what I got from that "you're living the good life" comment

The fact is, for a starter whose VORP was 24th in the league (ahead of Zito and Burnett) this deal was a bargain for at least years 1 and 2... And that, man, has absolutely NOTHING to do with my own financial situation... I envy baseball contracts as much as the next guy. I also think it's ridiculous in the first place that any of these guys get more than a mil, but whatever. That's market dictation.

Now if you didn't at all mean that, and you're talking about the obvious lack of financial errors in the Phillies administration, well then. Different story. Truly, the Phillies are a model organization for FA handling. Jim Thome? Worth every penny. Tom Gordon? Bargain! Jimmy Rollins? Of course I think a good long singles streak should  be rewarded with a $40 mil multiyear contract.

If I've taken anything out of context, I apologize for getting upset and invite you to correct me.

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 4:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually
That was a toast to you, and not any sort of challenge.

I don't know the emoticon for toasting or I would have used it.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 7:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

loaiza's deal
5 m Yr 1, 6 m Yr 2, 7 m Yr 3, 3 M signing bonus prorated over the three years.

Not sure bout the option years

11 M over 2 years for, according to some stats, the 6th most consistent starter in the league???

noice.

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 6:34 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not so fast
The problem with using quality starts is that it is based on such simplistic numbers that its predicitive ability is not that strong.  The reason numbers like k/9 and k/BB is that they tend to carry over from one year to another. quality start can be affected by errors, team defense, and much more luck. if you want a single stat like that Bill James' game score, which takes more of these predictive factors into consideration.

by li812 on Dec 3, 2005 5:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

QS not an end all
But it's a good starting point.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 3, 2005 6:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe the best reason
for optimism is that independently, QS, K/9IP, and BB/9IP are not worth that much, but in combination are worth more. And in those 3 areas, Loiaza actually comes out looking pretty good.

One could also see the glass as half empty by looking at things like ERA, BAA, and "ability to be wanted enough that you are on 6 teams or fewer over a 10 year period". Here, Esteban--likely known to his friends as "Stebby," "Esty," or "Bahn-zers"--doesn't come out looking as good.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 3, 2005 6:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or
you could say that he was a mediocre pitcher until he added a quality pitch to his repetoire 2-3 years ago. As such, a case could be made that his stats from a lot of his career aren't that relevant.

by Larry E on Dec 4, 2005 7:37 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly
While I'm not a big Loaiza booster the addition of a cutter to his repertoire makes him a completely different pitcher since 2003. Any data beofre that is largely irrelevant.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 9:45 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We've seen the impact
the addition of the cutter can have, through our very own Justin, the Duke of Shire.
Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 9:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The next question is:
How will Zito's expanded pitch selection affect his numbers in the coming years?
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 10:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Depends on the pitch.
I'd suggest adding the "first pitch strike".
Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 10:55 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cynic
Besides, the Holy Scripture says it's the first 3 pitches that are key.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 10:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, with Zito,
I'd say he gets ahead 1-2 enough, but too often then drags the count to 3-2. His "high pitch totals" are as often due to what happens later in the AB as how the AB begins.

But if a "full count" qualifies as "gluttony" then Z is indeed a sinner. I just hope he doesn't covet his neighbor's roster.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 11:09 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where does the last line
begin, and how could you tell?
Nico

by Nico on Dec 3, 2005 6:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe: Very well thought out post.
I completely disagree and think he will be very much of a disappointment, but this was an excellent read, whether I agree or not.

Good stuff.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Dec 3, 2005 6:25 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same conclusion....
This basically came to the same conclusion I posted the day of the signing: Loaiza either be money or a total bust.

Loaiza is over-paid and has a pretty lengthy contract, which makes it highly probable he will have at least one, and more than likely two miserable years in Oakland if his trends over the last 4 years continue.

"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw

by balldood on Dec 4, 2005 12:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

same here
I don't think it was the best signing. I can live with the money being what it is, but why give him a 3 year deal? The Giants only offered 2yrs at $8 million. Loiaza himself said, "I never thought that I was gonna get what I'm getting,".
Furthermore, Paul Byrd just signed for a similar amount but only for 2yrs..

by sf drift king on Dec 5, 2005 9:29 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 years
From what I've read the Giants did offer a 3 year deal (this from Loaiza's agent) but Oakland won out when they tacked on a 4th year option that SF would not match.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 5, 2005 9:54 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right
but I did read somewhere early on that the Gnats had only offered a 2yr/$8 mil contract.

by sf drift king on Dec 5, 2005 5:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Twas a bidding war!
And the A's... won? Wow.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 5, 2005 5:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's what i heard....
word...

I heard some nonsense about he wanted to stay in the AL, but then after a few mins, I was like: he played for the Nationals.... so the 4th year option must've been it. BTW... PLEASE tell me it's a club option. There's nothing more frustrating to watch than some underperforming yokul exercise his hefty player option and hurt the team!

"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw(Plans for 75K salary)

by balldood on Dec 5, 2005 10:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What we're really looking for
is percentage of games that he starts that we should win by the time he exits the game, where innings pitched is important because it generally means he got you closer to the end of those should win-games.  Without that particular stat (which measures the other team's performance as well as your own hitters') I think "quality starts" is about the closest stat to measure that criterion.  The only problem is that a "quality" start in Oakland last year had to be a bit higher "quality" than other places.  That's why we like Harden though, because, because he always has a good chance for the "dominant" start, where the other team gets nothing (or next to it), which is even more valuable than the quality start, especially where quality of opponent is concerned.

by iceplant on Dec 3, 2005 9:35 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm sorry
but that is a much more meaningless stat for determining how good a pitcher is.  what is the point of measuring the performance of "your own hitters" when looking at a starting pitcher?  we have a stat for that: W - L.  and it SUCKS.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 3, 2005 9:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But that's exactly the point ...
your pitchers don't have to be great, they just have to leave with the lead.  You are assuming that a pitcher's performance is independent of his hitter's performance.  I'm assuming it's dependent.  I'd rather have a team of Pujols caliber hitters with an average pitcher on the mound than crappy hitters with a very good pitcher on the mound.  But, give me a pitcher who can throw a shutout every time, and all of a sudden all those Pujols-esque hitters become much less important.  Pitching is probably the most important position, but it's still dependent on the rest of the hitter's if you want to win games.  The is really what QS attempts to show, but the attempt is made while only analyzing the pitcher, which lessens its accuracy.  A QS for the A's or Twins is, in reality, quite different than a QS for the Reds or Red Sox (at least in '05).  Also, it is simplified by using 6IP and 3ER as threshold values without using any multiplier on IP or ER in those games where said threshold value is met.  Still, it is useful.
But it doesn't differentiate between a "good" and "excellent" start.  And it doesn't take into account that not all offenses (own team or opposition's) are created equal.

by iceplant on Dec 5, 2005 4:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

iceplant
Loaiza more than doubled Harden's QS.
"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 4, 2005 1:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which kinda makes sense
Cause Loiaza made nearly twice as many starts as Harden did.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 4:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I write this
not wanting to knock on Harden but rather to give Loiaza props.  Loiaza's QS% is substantially higher than Harden's.  Harden, however, was pulled early in four games in which he didn't finish the sixth inning while going at least five a giving up three earned runs or less and that fact does make a huge difference. Unfortunately, you have to make up the cutoffs of this type of statistic somewhere.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 4, 2005 5:48 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand that
But a significant reason for the disparity was 15 fewer starts by Harden. I'm just trying to make sure that no false impressions are made.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 5:55 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in describing the quality start
it sounded like you were describing Zito

by OaklandSi on Dec 4, 2005 12:33 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm Sorry
"There are some who smirk at the quality start because it doesn't leave enough room for gray area (for instance, the starter who goes 8+ while giving up 4 earned).  But in this era of relief specialization in baseball, isn't the ball expected to be turned over after the 7th anyway?  So, if a starter goes six (though not quite seven) and gives up three or less runs in a game which he's started, isn't that pretty damned good by today's standards; particularly in the American League?  I certainly think so.  But there are others that point to that minimum requirement and say, rightfully, that this leads to a mediocre 4.50 ERA - "Unacceptable!" they say.  "Who gives a crap?" I say, "Didn't that start just give your favorite team an excellent opportunity to win?"

That's just poor statstical analysis. Just because it sounds good in your head doesn't make it true. A 4.5 ERA is barely defined as mediocre, and yet that's what a quality start essentially amounts to. This is not quality by any means. This is replacement level. I could find a vast number of guys in AAA who can put up a 4.5 ERA, that doesn't mean they should be given 7M/year contracts.

Here's my real issue: Giving your team a chance to win doesn't reflect on you whatsoever. It reflects on the quality of the team around you. If Esteban Loaiza goes 6 innings and allows 3, I'd by and large say he's had a pretty mediocre outing. If the A's score 4 runs and win, this doesn't make the outing good, and if the A's score 2 runs and lose, this doesn't make the outing bad. It's still mediocre.

Quality starts may not even be that bad, but on the totem pole of pitching statistics it's far, far behind he likes of ERA+, regular ERA, WHIP, K:BB ratio, K/9, and many others.

Esteban Loaiza is league average, nothing more, and the current market for league average starters dictates around 7Mil/Year as the going price, and so it's not a bad signing by any means, but it's not a great one, and it doesn't serve a terribly significant purpose in my opinion, but again, not terrible.

But by no means does a stat like quality starts justify it.

by walk off bunt on Dec 4, 2005 1:08 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This has been discussed
on this site at least once before and maybe more.  It seems to be a source of contention.  This is how it went down last time I had brought it up...you might just find it interesting.

For what it's worth, here's the Athletics 2005 Runs Scored distribution:

Runs     Observations
zero         12
one          16
two          23
three        16
four         16
five         21
six          19
seven       6
eight+     33

Though we don't know how a quality start will pan out [there might be unearned runs or there might be a bullpen struggles] it sure does look to me that if your starter can go six and give up just three earned [and remember he could just as well go eight and give up one, still getting the QS], a bare minimum QS is going to keep your team in the game.

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 4, 2005 5:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Assuming of course
your offense can score at least three runs. And last year the A's failed to do that 51 times. That sounds like a lot of wasted QS.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 5:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem
with this kind of whining about the QS stat is that it assumes every QS you get is part of a mediocre 4.50 ERA stat.  ERA is a separate stat.  A pitcher with 10 QS is unlikely to have very many where they gave up the exact maximum runs in minimum innings.  

When complaining about the QS stat, keep in mind that you have to accomplish 2 things simultaneously to earn this stat.  It is more rigorous than ERA in that aspect.  You not only have to keep runs low, you have to do it over a relatively large number of innings.  You can't do one or the other--you have to do both, on the same day.  Any quibbling over the runs or innings required to earn a QS should be quelled by this fact.  

If a manager decides that the 4.50 ERA on the day that you're cruising towards is not good enough to get your team a win, and takes you out before you've finished 6, no QS for you.  To me, this is what makes the QS a worthy stat.  Not only are you having a game that, on a hypothetical level, gives your team a chance to win.  Your manager agrees that you are the best choice to be on the mound through six, in spite of the minor damage your ERA might be taking today.

The QS stat measures what it measures.  It does not measure ERA.  But it's still a quality start.  If you got a QS, you did your job as a pitcher to keep your team in the game, even if you were at the bad end of what still qualifies as quality.

by blueconversechucks on Dec 5, 2005 1:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Moreover
Loaiza had just one less quality start than Dontrelle Willis and Roy Oswalt, the same amount as Johan Santana, and one more than Pedro Martinez, A.J. Burnett, and Tom Glavine, amongst others. He only had two less than Roger Clemens.

Is anyone really going to try and lead me to believe Esteban Loaiza is in the league of  Dontrelle Willis, Roy Oswalt, Pedro Martinez, A.J. Burnett, Tom Glavine, and Roger Clemens, amongst others?

by walk off bunt on Dec 4, 2005 1:21 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

3 year won loss records;
43-26 Loaiza
46-27 Willis
50-27 Oswalt
45-21 Pedro
19-20 AJ Burnett
33-41 Glavine
48-21 Clemens

Let keep it simple:
The league change hurts Loaiza
The defensive upgrade helps Loaiza
The Coliseum helps Loaiza
Kendall helps Loaiza

This is Loaiza's 4th team in 4 seasons.
We will be seeing how this shakes out like it or not. Loaiza's last 3 years are a fair measure of what can be expected. The 6 starters including Saarloos will cost the A's $16-17 million. That is under $3 million per starter.

How can anyone complain about that?

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 4, 2005 2:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Back track a second
League change hurts... yes (DH vs. pitcher, c'mon!)

Defense helps... yes

Coliseum helps... NO! For the last 2 years (and 3 of the last 4) the Coliseum has actually played as a slight hitter's park.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2005.shtml

Kendall helps Loaiza... ??? Why? Because he caught him years ago? Kendall helped the kids last year but Loaiza's a vet. He shouldn't need mentoring. I think this ends up as a neutral.

Under $3 million per SP. 6 SP. How many SP in a typical rotation?

Without Loaiza the A's have 5 SP at under $2 million a pop. Plus Cruz, Rhino and Meyer in the wings.

A little more bang for the buck would have been nice.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 3:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PLUS
last year RFK was a big time pitcher's park--moreso than Oakland

by blueconversechucks on Dec 5, 2005 1:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But
Didn't Loaiza's best year come on an AL team (CWS)?

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 4:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ERA vs. QS
Would you take a guy with an ERA of 5.00 if he gave you quality starts (say, 7IP 3ER) 80% of the time, and the other 20% of the time he was lit up?  Sure!!!  It means that 80% of the time, you have a great chance of winning and that the other 20% of the time you are playing Texas, Boston, or NYY.  Really, an 80% QS guy has value, even if he gets lit up on occasion.
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Dec 4, 2005 1:29 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kirk Rueter,
in his best years, was a classic example of this: 80% very good starts, occasionally 2.1 IP, 6ER. As a result, Rueter posted a terrific W/L record and a rather high ERA. And he was a very, very effective pitcher--in this case, the W/L record, not the ERA, told the story.
Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 9:12 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good examples. A's tend to look good
over a season then blow the short series.

...except Zito.

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 4, 2005 2:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But is it true?
Kirk Reuter: 2003

10-5, 4.53 ERA.  More wins (at least a better W-L record) than you might think given the high ERA.

12 quality starts out of 27 total starts.  In 8 of those QS, he went exactly 6 innings.  In 3 of those 8 QS in which he went exactly 6 innings, he gave up 3 earned runs.

<50% "quality" starts, many of which were on the low end of the spectrum.  In this case, the only story the W-L record tells is that the Giants had the sixth best offense, the best defense, and that Reuter was a tad lucky.

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 4, 2005 3:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

salb, re: Is it true?
I was referring to Rueter over a long period of time. In the 7 seasons from 1997-2003, Rueter's W/L record was 93-59 (.612), but his ERA (pitching in the NL the whole time) was 4.17. This was due to his tendency to pitch well most of the time behind a pretty good offense, and then sometimes get lit up big time.
Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 6:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

without getting too pedantic
I would like to respectfully disagree.

It seems that these numbers don't answer the issue at hand, and that in order to do so would require digging through his game logs. I don't think either of us really wants to do that.

Regardless, I do appreciate your point about the value of consitency (see my post directly below) in a starting pitcher.  I will have some work this week about run distributions (specifically on the 2005 A's and Angels) on BtB, and pitcher consistency (which I don't address) is seemingly a part of  this.

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 4, 2005 6:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Although
I do agree that looking at a pitcher's consistency - how often he gets lit up, how often he keeps the opposing offense under a 3 or 4 runs - does have value.  I just don't think that QS is the way to go.
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Dec 4, 2005 3:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Home/road
One significant problem with QS is that context determines whether a 4.50 ERA is "quality" or not.  In Colorado, Texas, or Cincinnati, 6 IP with 3 ER is great.  In Florida, Shea, or, of course RFK, it's not so good.  I can't find the QS stats that you analysed here, LCJ -- how many of Loaiza's QS were in DC?  Pitching in a park that suppresses scoring as much as RFK automatically makes it easier to accumulate "quality starts," -- or, to put it another way, significantly reduces the value of giving up 3 runs in 6 innings.  The way to correct for this would be to give a pitcher credit for a QS with 6 IP/ 3 ER in a neutral park, 3 runs in fewer innings in a hitter-friendly park, and 3 runs in more innings in a pitcher-friendly park.

So I think this takes us back to one of the main questions for Loaiza in terms of his "projectability" -- how much of his performance was due to the advantages of his home ballpark, and will he take similar advantage of the Coliseum?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 4, 2005 7:14 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Loaiza's home/road numbers
I took a look at Loaiza's game log from 2005 and put together the following stats.

At home, Loaiza had 13 QS in 16 starts -- a terrific 81%.

On the road, he had 11 QS in 18 starts -- a 61% rate.

That's a pretty big difference, even with the necessarily small sample sizes for a starter.

Here is the list of the parks where he threw a road QS.  P=park favors pitcher H=park favors hitter 0=neutral park, based on data from Baseball Reference

2005 Road QS:
Atl -- H
LAD -- P
SF -- P
StL -- H
Phi -- H
Mil -- 0
Atl -- H
Col -- H
NYM -- P
NYM -- P
SD -- P

That's 5 in pitchers' parks, 5 in hitters' parks, one in a neutral park

Road non-QS:
Phi -- H
NYM -- P
Cin -- H
Phi -- H
Atl -- H
Fla -- P
LAA -- P

That's 3 in pitchers' parks, 4 in hitters' parks.

In road pitchers' parks, he's 5 QS and 2 non-QS.

In road hitters' parks, he's 5 QS and 4 non-QS.

He threw a QS in his one road start in a neutral park.

Conclusions, to the extent you can draw them:  last year, Loaiza was very dependent on the ball park he threw in.  In his home (pitchers') park, he was 13/16.  In road pitchers' parks, he was 5/8, for a total of 18/24 (75%).  In hitters' parks, he was 5/9 (56%).

Beane probably figures he'll do fine in the Coliseum, be susceptible to getting raked in Anaheim (pitchers' park, but the Angels hit him very well) and in TX, and to do well in Seattle, too.  

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 4, 2005 12:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for posting that
I saw the same breakdown, but I've ridden the guy so hard I was worried people were going to think it was personal.

Which it is!

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 12:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who posts the QS data?
I did this from his game log, which took a little time.  ESPN, MLB, and Baseball-Reference are QS-less.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 4, 2005 12:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did the same as you
I used CBSSportsline. Their Gamelog is pretty easy to read.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 4, 2005 12:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Moneyball in college football
Interesting article by Lewis in the NY Times magazine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/magazine/04coach.html?ex=1291352400&en=c9f46201dc95f91d&ei =5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

It basically chronicles how the coach at Texas Tech uses unconventional methods to beat teams with much better traditional college talent.

by DKNJ on Dec 4, 2005 8:59 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow
Brilliant article, thank you for posting it!

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 7:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Furtherless,
4.50 ERA is not a benchmark for QS, it's the left end of the spectrum (the right end being a complete game shutout). The idea behind using QS as a measure is that guys whose QS% is high may have a couple, or a few, "mediocre starts"--and even in those they have kept the team competitive--but they will also have plenty of 7IP, 2ER, 8IP, 2ER, 7IP, 1ER, etc.

Sure, someone who always went exactly 6IP and gave up exactly 3ER would not be a frontline starter (though he would still be an elite #5, and a damn decent #4, by league standards), but nobody does that.

The QS isn't based on the idea that a 4.50 ERA is good. The QS is based on requiring at least 6 IP so as not to allow pitchers to pitch well yet still rely too much on the bullpen, and 3 ER or fewer so as not to allow pitchers to go deep into games yet still rely too much on the offense. That combination, which yields a maximum ERA of 4.50 and minimum ERA of 0.00, a maximum bullpen need of 3 IP and minimum bullpen need of 0 IP, is the full spectrum of a QS.

Focusing only on the extreme end of any spectrum will always, at that moment, distort the spectrum.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 4, 2005 9:09 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly
Thanks for writing this Nico because I was too lazy to do it.

by Larry E on Dec 4, 2005 9:15 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just out of curiousity
Why hasn't anyone mentioned Trot Nixon as a potential platoon DH with Kielty? Kielty smahses lefties, Nixon smashes righties... Red Sox need pen help and don't want Nixon, so maybe Saarloos and someone for Nixon and, say, 3-4 M cash? Or is 5 OF too many to carry, even when one is DHing?

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 2:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure why it posted the same comment twice,
but the one below is the right one (no stupid spelling error of curiosity)

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 2:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just out of curiosity
Why hasn't anyone mentioned Trot Nixon as a potential platoon DH with Kielty? Kielty smahses lefties, Nixon smashes righties... Red Sox need pen help and don't want Nixon, so maybe Saarloos and someone for Nixon and, say, 3-4 M cash? Or is 5 OF too many to carry, even when one is DHing?

by Alon on Dec 4, 2005 2:46 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What we all have here
is a disagreement in philosophy.

I don't think "being just good enough so that your excellent offense can bail you" signifies a good pitcher.

I think W-L record and QS are stats that are much much too team/context dependant to objectively determine a pitcher's value, or talent level.

Others think differently, and they may be right, but when the stat is justifying putting Esteban Loaiza on the same level as Roger Clemens or Dontrelle Willis or Roy Oswalt or Pedro Martinez or any other upper echelon starter, I'd say the stat is flawed.

by walk off bunt on Dec 4, 2005 6:04 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Granting That Quality Starts Is A Good Stat ...
... which I believe ...

Estaban Loaiza has only had two good years out of the previous six.

Loaiza's other numbers (K/BB, IP, ERA, OPS allowed) were also pretty good in 2003 and 2005 -- and not so good in the other years.

Why do we think his seasons at ages 34, 35 and 36 will match his two best years?  

by Eck on Dec 4, 2005 8:06 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Indeed
This is a classic example of "paying for past performance."
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Dec 4, 2005 8:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Though...
his performance DID come in the last 3 years...

by Alon on Dec 5, 2005 4:25 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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