Why Loaiza?
[EDITOR'S NOTE - This is one of the best diaries I've ever seen on AN. I want to give all kinds of props to Lowcountryjoe for this one and it deserves the front page. I'm kicking myself for not realizing this myself. Great work, LCJ. - Blez]
To be sure, there are many of you that contribute to and read AN that understand the Loaiza signing or are at least accepting of it. But some of you are probably shaking your heads and thinking that Beane overpaid. This diary is directed at the `head-shakers'.
Statistics make for weird animals. One could use a particular statistic to justify just about anything. Be prepared, I'm going to attempt to do just that!
ERA, K/BB, IP, Win/Loss, etcetera, they're all good. But for my money (though I've got none personally riding on it) the number of quality starts on the year is the best measure of a starting pitcher's effectiveness. Why? Well, because it really gets to the heart of the matter...encompassing total innings pitched (have got to be healthy), earned runs allowed, and best of all, consistency as evidenced by less variability throughout the course of the season.
There are some who smirk at the quality start because it doesn't leave enough room for gray area (for instance, the starter who goes 8+ while giving up 4 earned). But in this era of relief specialization in baseball, isn't the ball expected to be turned over after the 7th anyway? So, if a starter goes six (though not quite seven) and gives up three or less runs in a game which he's started, isn't that pretty damned good by today's standards; particularly in the American League? I certainly think so. But there are others that point to that minimum requirement and say, rightfully, that this leads to a mediocre 4.50 ERA - "Unacceptable!" they say. "Who gives a crap?" I say, "Didn't that start just give your favorite team an excellent opportunity to win?" It's at this point that the nay-sayers may bring up how that a mediocre start like that cannot quite match up against the more elite starters in the league and what they'll accomplish during their start. Okay, fair enough, but how many times does a team face an elite starter during a season. I guess that it all depends on how one defines elite but I'll be generous and say 40 times. And of those 40 times, let's say, to be generous again, a " meet the minimums" quality start won't get the job done 30 out of those 40 times (that's still 10 wins).
Are we all right so far? So how about the other 122 games? Is it fair to say that a quality start will result in a win about 80% of the time one is pitched in those other 122 games - games against the non-elite starters? That's tough because even the non-elite starters throw them every so often...and then, in those instances, it's who gives up less runs. Anyhow, it's all conjecture and rampant speculation as to how often this or that happens but even the most ardent trashers of the quality start would be quite impressed, I imagine, to see their favorite pitchers toss them on a regular basis. I certainly would prefer to see the 5 to 4 victory (allowing for the bullpen to give up a run or the occasion unearned run) as opposed to the 7+ to 6+ clunker.
Which, awkwardly, leads me back to Loaiza and why his signing should be celebrated by AN. Loaiza was 6th on the list (for the entire MLB roster of SPs) in quality starts last season. He had 24 QS of 34 starts - 71%.
How does that match up with the remaining starters on the Athletics roster? Well, let's see (QS/QS%/MLB ranking for QS):
Blanton: 22/67/t-14
Haren: 22/65/t-14
Zito: 21/60/t-23
Harden: 10/53/t-108
Saarloos: 10/37/t-108
Kennedy (2005 full year): 7/29/t-137
But, to be balanced, not all can be said to be rosy on the consistency front regarding Loaiza since 2000. Loiza's other seasons look like this:
2004: 8/30/t-117
- 27/79/t-1
- 12/48/t-81
- 15/50/t-61
- 16/52/t-42
Maybe Loaiza can break out of this mini Saberhagen-like pattern and get his shit together in the green & gold.
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99 comments
Comments
AMEN to Quality starts
by novaoakland on
Dec 3, 2005 12:31 PM PST
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GOOD JOB!!!!
by Olijerez77 on
Dec 3, 2005 12:32 PM PST
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Thank you.
by LowcountryJoe on
Dec 3, 2005 12:57 PM PST
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like Beck sang ...
(And, yes, of course, I am required to add: "In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey" ... )
by monkeyball on
Dec 3, 2005 1:22 PM PST
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butane in your veins?
by salb918 on
Dec 3, 2005 2:08 PM PST
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and I'm out to cut the junkie
by pbruins92 on
Dec 3, 2005 2:46 PM PST
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plastic eyeballs
by salb918 on
Dec 3, 2005 2:49 PM PST
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Ewww.... eyeballs...
Did you hear that the new sexual craze is eyeball licking?????
Grossssssss.
by GreenNGoldGirl on
Dec 3, 2005 3:21 PM PST
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I'm trying to think of something gross to say.
by salb918 on
Dec 3, 2005 4:05 PM PST
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How about......
by alox on
Dec 3, 2005 8:28 PM PST
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Gettin' crazy with the Cheese Wiz, I see
by LowcountryJoe on
Dec 3, 2005 6:20 PM PST
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Sooooooy un per-di-do!
by AlamedaAphid on
Dec 4, 2005 9:50 AM PST
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One is a starter, ...one is a spot starter
Pitches abs avg abs avg
01-15 200 270 304 237
16-30 186 242 331 227
31-45 143 301 368 313
46-60 131 214 359 262
61-75 129 333 372 282
76-90 87 379 323 285
91-105 17 294 256 254
106-120 2 0 96 229
121-135 0 0 7 0
- Saarloos can lose effectiveness after 60 pitches but Loaiza is good at 100+
- Saarloos has great value to the A's and others because he can be effective in spot starts.
by A s Eh on
Dec 3, 2005 1:28 PM PST
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Sorry,I had to leave...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7180&type=pitching3&three=1
- Additionally the upgrades in defense & stadium removes maybe 0.5 from Loaisa's ERA.
The real reason this acquisition bothers me & most of AN is that it makes Zito appear tradeable whereas BB would not have had that option pre-Loaisa. I'm greedy. I want Z, L & Saarloos.
Hopefully BB uses his gray matter and the Fisher's throw him some green matter and the A's trade others to obtain a power spike in 2006.
by A s Eh on
Dec 3, 2005 11:22 PM PST
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Cogency
by conniemack on
Dec 3, 2005 1:32 PM PST
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If Loiaza's appeal
- A bullpen that can dominate for 3 innings if it is given any sort of a lead. Check.
- An offense that can consistently score 4+ runs in a game.
by Nico on
Dec 3, 2005 1:36 PM PST
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8 more wins and the A's win the division
It wasn't for the pitching
It wasn't for the defense
It wasn't for the OBP
by A s Eh on
Dec 3, 2005 11:29 PM PST
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Well said
Nico, I agree completely. If we're looking for a 5-4 in April, May or September, we could be SOL unless that big bat is added...
by IndianaAsfan on
Dec 4, 2005 12:08 PM PST
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here here
by Helloooo 1st on
Dec 3, 2005 2:41 PM PST
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I'm a head shaker
Gotta hand it to Billy, he made a mistake in overpaying for Loaiza but he corrected that mistake by sending the market for SP spiralling into the stratosphere. That move might end up being the greatest of his career.
by grover on
Dec 3, 2005 4:57 PM PST
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that "mistake" and correction...
Whatever value Loiaza can contribute over league average (if any) is a bonus. If Zito doesn't get traded, then we're still stronger than we were.
by spal on
Dec 3, 2005 8:52 PM PST
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Look
Furthermore, the Loaiza signing and its subsequent push on the market makes it nearly impossible for Beane to sign Zito to an extension. If Loaiza at $7 million annual can push Byrd to $7 million than Burrnett is going to be looking at $11-12 million which means Zito, at a home town discount, is looking at $12 million annual minimum.
So, do we let Zito walk after 06 or do we trade him?
by grover on
Dec 3, 2005 9:01 PM PST
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We would laugh...
But we didn't need Loaiza. Our rotation was fine going into '06 with what we had. Therefore, Beane's motivation for signing him was different from any other team's, even one with good pitching because clubs like the Astros and Angels aren't in the same position of having a starter to shop around. We were in a unique situation that nobody but Beane realized. Loaiza's contract wasn't based on cash demand, it was based on player demand. Therefore, because of (what I believe to be) the reasons behind it, it was a good contract. Beane didn't agree to pay up to $21M for a pitcher, he agreed to pay up to $21M (and likely less) primarily for better prospects and/or a better current hitter. That we get a halfway-decent starter as a result is nice, but ancillary.
Say there was a trade on the table of Zito for a bat and two prospects, and the other GM were asking for $6M on top of Zito, or else he will offer a contract to Loaiza (again, I'm figuring Loaiza won't be here for all 3 years, so his cost to us is lower over the first 2). Instead of paying that other GM $6M, Beane goes and pays it to Loaiza instead to play for the A's. Now the other GM has even fewer choices than to trade for Zito, can't ask for cash, and Beane can demand better players/prospects. Instead of giving money to another team, he gave it to Loaiza, getting a potentially decent starter and strengthening his bargaining position at the same time. It's got much less to do with on-field production by Loaiza, and more to do with what he can get in a trade.
However, I have no idea if Zito will be traded or not. In fact, I'd guess that if he is traded, it won't be now but before the deadline. Zito is a durable guy, so he's not likely to get injured by that time, and if a team needs a starter, they'll be even more desperate because the season will be halfway over and Beane can get more in return. And like I said, if he's not traded, then we're still a stronger team because Loaiza can contribute something as a player (especially since his expectations aren't that of a team that would have signed him strictly looking for pitching). By the end of the year, Beane can even trade Loaiza instead to a team that might not be able to afford Zito. Then we're rid of his cost to us and maybe able to afford Barry ourselves. Worst case scenario, Zito walks, we get a draft pick to offset the one we lost for Loaiza, and we're still a good team with a good future.
by spal on
Dec 3, 2005 9:42 PM PST
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Huge flaw in that logic
I'm not saying Loaiza is without value. Even Jason Kendall had value last year. What I'm saying is based on 2005 peformance Loaiza offers a marginal improvement over Saarloos. At $6 million dollars you'd hope for more than a marginal upgrade. That's the Yankee way of doing business.
Shoot, what am I saying. At least they made the playoffs.
by grover on
Dec 3, 2005 11:09 PM PST
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My guess is we can't get BB's preferred
Loaiza adds the depth that enables us to trade key pitchers for that bat and still compete.
Sidenote: BB does not add the fanfare following the Loaisa signing unless L is going to stick.
by A s Eh on
Dec 3, 2005 11:58 PM PST
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That scenario...
Think about it -- have you ever known Beane to hand out a contract like this purely for the on-field skills/production of a player like Loaiza? That's not his style at all. I think Beane thought that the best value in the money he had available lay in making his position stronger, so that's what he did without detracting from the team.
by spal on
Dec 4, 2005 12:20 AM PST
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I respect that but I think BB is changing the
Next moves probably hinged on the acqisition of Loaiza.
About the time of this signing BB announced he intended to talk to Zito's agent about an extension.
That talk can have two outcomes;
- They write up a contract. (The bucks would go up next year and thereafter. The A's have money clearing to do it)
- They don't write up a contract and Zito leaves sometime between now and October.
Add'l monies are expected from revenue sharing and luxury taxes (Thank you George!)
by A s Eh on
Dec 4, 2005 1:03 AM PST
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It's an ugly list
Do Dye and Redman ring a bell?
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 4:02 AM PST
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To be fair
I should have worded that differently, though. Beane has made some mistakes, as you point out, but bloated contracts atypical for him. I think the moves he's made that have worked in the past afford him the benefit of the doubt, until bad moves become a habit or until he makes a mistake that irrevocably cripples a season.
by spal on
Dec 4, 2005 11:09 AM PST
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I am being fair
Redman begat Kendall. Which is going from bad to worse in contracts.
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 11:28 AM PST
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My mistake
However, I still stand by giving Beane the benefit of the doubt based on his overall success, and I still think Loaiza was a power play instead of just getting a player.
by spal on
Dec 4, 2005 12:11 PM PST
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Just curious, Grover
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 2:34 PM PST
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I think Beane is a good GM
But I don't drink the Kool-Aid and "In Billy We Trust" has never worked for me. When he makes a good move I praise him. When he Fucks up I call him on it. And when he makes a questionable move I question.
Not that he answers that often. :)
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 3:08 PM PST
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By the way
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 3:09 PM PST
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Hmm?
I really don't think baseball contracts are really relative to my income, which is what I got from that "you're living the good life" comment
The fact is, for a starter whose VORP was 24th in the league (ahead of Zito and Burnett) this deal was a bargain for at least years 1 and 2... And that, man, has absolutely NOTHING to do with my own financial situation... I envy baseball contracts as much as the next guy. I also think it's ridiculous in the first place that any of these guys get more than a mil, but whatever. That's market dictation.
Now if you didn't at all mean that, and you're talking about the obvious lack of financial errors in the Phillies administration, well then. Different story. Truly, the Phillies are a model organization for FA handling. Jim Thome? Worth every penny. Tom Gordon? Bargain! Jimmy Rollins? Of course I think a good long singles streak should be rewarded with a $40 mil multiyear contract.
If I've taken anything out of context, I apologize for getting upset and invite you to correct me.
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 4:27 PM PST
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loaiza's deal
Not sure bout the option years
11 M over 2 years for, according to some stats, the 6th most consistent starter in the league???
noice.
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 6:34 AM PST
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not so fast
by li812 on
Dec 3, 2005 5:45 PM PST
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QS not an end all
by grover on
Dec 3, 2005 6:33 PM PST
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Maybe the best reason
One could also see the glass as half empty by looking at things like ERA, BAA, and "ability to be wanted enough that you are on 6 teams or fewer over a 10 year period". Here, Esteban--likely known to his friends as "Stebby," "Esty," or "Bahn-zers"--doesn't come out looking as good.
by Nico on
Dec 3, 2005 6:37 PM PST
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Or
by Larry E on
Dec 4, 2005 7:37 AM PST
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Exactly
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 9:45 AM PST
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We've seen the impact
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 9:56 AM PST
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The next question is:
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 10:26 AM PST
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Depends on the pitch.
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 10:55 AM PST
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Cynic
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 10:58 AM PST
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Actually, with Zito,
But if a "full count" qualifies as "gluttony" then Z is indeed a sinner. I just hope he doesn't covet his neighbor's roster.
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 11:09 AM PST
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Where does the last line
by Nico on
Dec 3, 2005 6:22 PM PST
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Joe: Very well thought out post.
Good stuff.
by OaktownPower on
Dec 3, 2005 6:25 PM PST
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Same conclusion....
Loaiza is over-paid and has a pretty lengthy contract, which makes it highly probable he will have at least one, and more than likely two miserable years in Oakland if his trends over the last 4 years continue.
by balldood on
Dec 4, 2005 12:22 AM PST
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same here
Furthermore, Paul Byrd just signed for a similar amount but only for 2yrs..
by sf drift king on
Dec 5, 2005 9:29 AM PST
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3 years
by grover on
Dec 5, 2005 9:54 AM PST
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You're right
by sf drift king on
Dec 5, 2005 5:29 PM PST
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Twas a bidding war!
by grover on
Dec 5, 2005 5:31 PM PST
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that's what i heard....
I heard some nonsense about he wanted to stay in the AL, but then after a few mins, I was like: he played for the Nationals.... so the 4th year option must've been it. BTW... PLEASE tell me it's a club option. There's nothing more frustrating to watch than some underperforming yokul exercise his hefty player option and hurt the team!
by balldood on
Dec 5, 2005 10:02 PM PST
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What we're really looking for
by iceplant on
Dec 3, 2005 9:35 PM PST
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i'm sorry
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 3, 2005 9:38 PM PST
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But that's exactly the point ...
But it doesn't differentiate between a "good" and "excellent" start. And it doesn't take into account that not all offenses (own team or opposition's) are created equal.
by iceplant on
Dec 5, 2005 4:17 PM PST
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iceplant
by A s Eh on
Dec 4, 2005 1:06 AM PST
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Which kinda makes sense
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 4:00 AM PST
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I write this
by LowcountryJoe on
Dec 4, 2005 5:48 AM PST
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I understand that
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 5:55 AM PST
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in describing the quality start
by OaklandSi on
Dec 4, 2005 12:33 AM PST
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I'm Sorry
That's just poor statstical analysis. Just because it sounds good in your head doesn't make it true. A 4.5 ERA is barely defined as mediocre, and yet that's what a quality start essentially amounts to. This is not quality by any means. This is replacement level. I could find a vast number of guys in AAA who can put up a 4.5 ERA, that doesn't mean they should be given 7M/year contracts.
Here's my real issue: Giving your team a chance to win doesn't reflect on you whatsoever. It reflects on the quality of the team around you. If Esteban Loaiza goes 6 innings and allows 3, I'd by and large say he's had a pretty mediocre outing. If the A's score 4 runs and win, this doesn't make the outing good, and if the A's score 2 runs and lose, this doesn't make the outing bad. It's still mediocre.
Quality starts may not even be that bad, but on the totem pole of pitching statistics it's far, far behind he likes of ERA+, regular ERA, WHIP, K:BB ratio, K/9, and many others.
Esteban Loaiza is league average, nothing more, and the current market for league average starters dictates around 7Mil/Year as the going price, and so it's not a bad signing by any means, but it's not a great one, and it doesn't serve a terribly significant purpose in my opinion, but again, not terrible.
But by no means does a stat like quality starts justify it.
by walk off bunt on
Dec 4, 2005 1:08 AM PST
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This has been discussed
For what it's worth, here's the Athletics 2005 Runs Scored distribution:
Runs Observations
zero 12
one 16
two 23
three 16
four 16
five 21
six 19
seven 6
eight+ 33
Though we don't know how a quality start will pan out [there might be unearned runs or there might be a bullpen struggles] it sure does look to me that if your starter can go six and give up just three earned [and remember he could just as well go eight and give up one, still getting the QS], a bare minimum QS is going to keep your team in the game.
by LowcountryJoe on
Dec 4, 2005 5:36 AM PST
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Assuming of course
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 5:53 AM PST
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The problem
When complaining about the QS stat, keep in mind that you have to accomplish 2 things simultaneously to earn this stat. It is more rigorous than ERA in that aspect. You not only have to keep runs low, you have to do it over a relatively large number of innings. You can't do one or the other--you have to do both, on the same day. Any quibbling over the runs or innings required to earn a QS should be quelled by this fact.
If a manager decides that the 4.50 ERA on the day that you're cruising towards is not good enough to get your team a win, and takes you out before you've finished 6, no QS for you. To me, this is what makes the QS a worthy stat. Not only are you having a game that, on a hypothetical level, gives your team a chance to win. Your manager agrees that you are the best choice to be on the mound through six, in spite of the minor damage your ERA might be taking today.
The QS stat measures what it measures. It does not measure ERA. But it's still a quality start. If you got a QS, you did your job as a pitcher to keep your team in the game, even if you were at the bad end of what still qualifies as quality.
by blueconversechucks on
Dec 5, 2005 1:11 PM PST
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Moreover
Is anyone really going to try and lead me to believe Esteban Loaiza is in the league of Dontrelle Willis, Roy Oswalt, Pedro Martinez, A.J. Burnett, Tom Glavine, and Roger Clemens, amongst others?
by walk off bunt on
Dec 4, 2005 1:21 AM PST
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3 year won loss records;
46-27 Willis
50-27 Oswalt
45-21 Pedro
19-20 AJ Burnett
33-41 Glavine
48-21 Clemens
Let keep it simple:
The league change hurts Loaiza
The defensive upgrade helps Loaiza
The Coliseum helps Loaiza
Kendall helps Loaiza
This is Loaiza's 4th team in 4 seasons.
We will be seeing how this shakes out like it or not. Loaiza's last 3 years are a fair measure of what can be expected. The 6 starters including Saarloos will cost the A's $16-17 million. That is under $3 million per starter.
How can anyone complain about that?
by A s Eh on
Dec 4, 2005 2:08 PM PST
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Back track a second
Defense helps... yes
Coliseum helps... NO! For the last 2 years (and 3 of the last 4) the Coliseum has actually played as a slight hitter's park.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2005.shtml
Kendall helps Loaiza... ??? Why? Because he caught him years ago? Kendall helped the kids last year but Loaiza's a vet. He shouldn't need mentoring. I think this ends up as a neutral.
Under $3 million per SP. 6 SP. How many SP in a typical rotation?
Without Loaiza the A's have 5 SP at under $2 million a pop. Plus Cruz, Rhino and Meyer in the wings.
A little more bang for the buck would have been nice.
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 3:02 PM PST
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PLUS
by blueconversechucks on
Dec 5, 2005 1:16 PM PST
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ERA vs. QS
by JJ on
Dec 4, 2005 1:29 AM PST
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Kirk Rueter,
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 9:12 AM PST
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Good examples. A's tend to look good
...except Zito.
by A s Eh on
Dec 4, 2005 2:25 PM PST
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But is it true?
10-5, 4.53 ERA. More wins (at least a better W-L record) than you might think given the high ERA.
12 quality starts out of 27 total starts. In 8 of those QS, he went exactly 6 innings. In 3 of those 8 QS in which he went exactly 6 innings, he gave up 3 earned runs.
<50% "quality" starts, many of which were on the low end of the spectrum. In this case, the only story the W-L record tells is that the Giants had the sixth best offense, the best defense, and that Reuter was a tad lucky.
by salb918 on
Dec 4, 2005 3:10 PM PST
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salb, re: Is it true?
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 6:13 PM PST
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without getting too pedantic
It seems that these numbers don't answer the issue at hand, and that in order to do so would require digging through his game logs. I don't think either of us really wants to do that.
Regardless, I do appreciate your point about the value of consitency (see my post directly below) in a starting pitcher. I will have some work this week about run distributions (specifically on the 2005 A's and Angels) on BtB, and pitcher consistency (which I don't address) is seemingly a part of this.
by salb918 on
Dec 4, 2005 6:27 PM PST
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Although
by salb918 on
Dec 4, 2005 3:11 PM PST
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Home/road
So I think this takes us back to one of the main questions for Loaiza in terms of his "projectability" -- how much of his performance was due to the advantages of his home ballpark, and will he take similar advantage of the Coliseum?
by Nick on
Dec 4, 2005 7:14 AM PST
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Loaiza's home/road numbers
At home, Loaiza had 13 QS in 16 starts -- a terrific 81%.
On the road, he had 11 QS in 18 starts -- a 61% rate.
That's a pretty big difference, even with the necessarily small sample sizes for a starter.
Here is the list of the parks where he threw a road QS. P=park favors pitcher H=park favors hitter 0=neutral park, based on data from Baseball Reference
2005 Road QS:
Atl -- H
LAD -- P
SF -- P
StL -- H
Phi -- H
Mil -- 0
Atl -- H
Col -- H
NYM -- P
NYM -- P
SD -- P
That's 5 in pitchers' parks, 5 in hitters' parks, one in a neutral park
Road non-QS:
Phi -- H
NYM -- P
Cin -- H
Phi -- H
Atl -- H
Fla -- P
LAA -- P
That's 3 in pitchers' parks, 4 in hitters' parks.
In road pitchers' parks, he's 5 QS and 2 non-QS.
In road hitters' parks, he's 5 QS and 4 non-QS.
He threw a QS in his one road start in a neutral park.
Conclusions, to the extent you can draw them: last year, Loaiza was very dependent on the ball park he threw in. In his home (pitchers') park, he was 13/16. In road pitchers' parks, he was 5/8, for a total of 18/24 (75%). In hitters' parks, he was 5/9 (56%).
Beane probably figures he'll do fine in the Coliseum, be susceptible to getting raked in Anaheim (pitchers' park, but the Angels hit him very well) and in TX, and to do well in Seattle, too.
by Nick on
Dec 4, 2005 12:05 PM PST
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Thanks for posting that
Which it is!
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 12:23 PM PST
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Who posts the QS data?
by Nick on
Dec 4, 2005 12:33 PM PST
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Did the same as you
by grover on
Dec 4, 2005 12:50 PM PST
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Moneyball in college football
It basically chronicles how the coach at Texas Tech uses unconventional methods to beat teams with much better traditional college talent.
by DKNJ on
Dec 4, 2005 8:59 AM PST
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Furtherless,
Sure, someone who always went exactly 6IP and gave up exactly 3ER would not be a frontline starter (though he would still be an elite #5, and a damn decent #4, by league standards), but nobody does that.
The QS isn't based on the idea that a 4.50 ERA is good. The QS is based on requiring at least 6 IP so as not to allow pitchers to pitch well yet still rely too much on the bullpen, and 3 ER or fewer so as not to allow pitchers to go deep into games yet still rely too much on the offense. That combination, which yields a maximum ERA of 4.50 and minimum ERA of 0.00, a maximum bullpen need of 3 IP and minimum bullpen need of 0 IP, is the full spectrum of a QS.
Focusing only on the extreme end of any spectrum will always, at that moment, distort the spectrum.
by Nico on
Dec 4, 2005 9:09 AM PST
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Exactly
by Larry E on
Dec 4, 2005 9:15 AM PST
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Just out of curiousity
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 2:45 PM PST
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Not sure why it posted the same comment twice,
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 2:50 PM PST
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Just out of curiosity
by Alon on
Dec 4, 2005 2:46 PM PST
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What we all have here
I don't think "being just good enough so that your excellent offense can bail you" signifies a good pitcher.
I think W-L record and QS are stats that are much much too team/context dependant to objectively determine a pitcher's value, or talent level.
Others think differently, and they may be right, but when the stat is justifying putting Esteban Loaiza on the same level as Roger Clemens or Dontrelle Willis or Roy Oswalt or Pedro Martinez or any other upper echelon starter, I'd say the stat is flawed.
by walk off bunt on
Dec 4, 2005 6:04 PM PST
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Granting That Quality Starts Is A Good Stat ...
Estaban Loaiza has only had two good years out of the previous six.
Loaiza's other numbers (K/BB, IP, ERA, OPS allowed) were also pretty good in 2003 and 2005 -- and not so good in the other years.
Why do we think his seasons at ages 34, 35 and 36 will match his two best years?
by Eck on
Dec 4, 2005 8:06 PM PST
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