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The Media

Have you guys noticed that the only good press the A's have been receiving is been on the internet from mlb.com and espn.com?  There might be something good on BA but since I don't pay for it, I really don't know if it's good or bad.

The local media are lambasting the trades like it's the second coming of the sucky 49ers.  Ray Ratto (boy do I hate that guy, he's so full of himself, basically Jim Rome with no sense of humor or tact plus of alot of asshole factor) said it outright on ESPN that the A's are "lucky to win 60 games" next season.

Here's the breakdown of some of the recent articles regarding the end of the Big 3

Bob Klapisch, ESPN.com 12/14/04

Peter Gammons, ESPN.com 12/18/04 and 12/16/04

Tim Kawakami, San Jose Mercury 12/20/04

Scott Ostler, SF Chron 12/19/04 and 12/20/04

Ray Ratto, SF Chron 12/19/04

You guys get the gist, right, and you probably have read them as much as I have in the past few days.

What strikes me as funny is that the Kawakami and Ostler articles were pretty much the same thing. Lots of loud proclamations that the end of A's baseball is nigh, they're going to suck next year, the fans will stay home or (gasp) become Giants fans.

Also whenever they had the "fan perspective" it's always one-sided, skewed towards.  "I hate the trade and ownership."  It's not at all like the dialogue we have here at AN, but what do we know, we all just a bunch of Baseball America and SABR nerds.

I guess sounding rational doesn't sell newspapers.

Well I'd like say that I believe the A's won't suck next year, how good they will be, I do not know.  I will go to games next year and not jump ship and become yet another dumb Giants fan rooting for Barry "BALCO" Bonds.

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local sportswriters on the recent trades
i think this media issue is the one major aspect of the recent events that we haven't discussed enough.  i think blez should put this diary on the main page or write something about it himself, because it's a big issue.
i know i'm very pissed off about it.

my theory is that the local media will pretty much always come out against a trade in which the local team gives up stars for prospects.  

these "sportswriters" have the intelligence, long term memory, and vision of the average baseball fan, meaning none at all.  

no athlete matters unless he's a big name star: regularly mentioned on sportscenter or drafted in the first two rounds of fantasy leagues.  
and there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to take into account whether or not a player is injury prone, about to go into decline, already over the hill, or if a similar player is available for much cheaper (hey, it's not their money).  

this works out for them on multiple levels:

first, the average joe sixpack fan will agree with their take on the trades, which means love mail probably outnumbers hate mail 10 to 1.  

second, it's a far better story to declare that the a's are going to finish in last place, beane has gone crazy, and the ownership = charles finley than to try to explain (using actual statistics and arguments that require baseball knowledge) why a trade may not be such a bad thing in the long term.  

third, why would they want to write stories about a bunch of no-name players.  it's not going to sell as many papers as columns on slugger giambi, energetic tejada, tough hudson, laid back guy mulder, eccentric rocker zito, etc.  
and it would be a lot more work to have to actually learn about new players.
also, the national media's not going to care what ray ratto has to say this week about keith ginter.

fourth, there's not enough information to determine whether trades such as these work out for a few years, and by then, nobody will remember some old article they wrote about it years ago.

finally, if the media is wrong, it's not like they lose their jobs.  if beane listens to them and the average fan, and the team ends up in the cellar from 2006-2010 instead of only being uncompetitive for one year, he's the one who could be out of a job.  
and why would the sportswriters care, even that is a great story for them: the collapse of billy beane.

i'm not sure if they're a bunch of whores who are only interested in tabloid headlines that sell papers or if they actually have no baseball knowledge whatsoever.  after all, did they get their jobs as sportswrites because they know something about sports or because they went to journalism school?  
they don't seem to be familiar with concepts such as win shares and VORP. heck, even WHIP or K/9 innings.  even their take on beane's philosophy is simplistic: he likes on base percentage.  

blogs like this are part of a new free market media (as opposed to the big media oligarchy) that is available to almost everyone (with a computer).  at least people are held accountable for what they write here and readers can leave feedback in public.  i know the first place i come to when something happens with the a's is this blog, and that's the reason the old media will eventually die.

i'm really starting to get sick of this nonsense.  i don't know what we can really do about it, except maybe do what s.a.m. has already started to do with this diary: keep a record of all the articles that have been written about this deal.  
we shouldn't forget what these sportswriters had to say about our a's at this critical juncture, and we shouldn't let them forget it either.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 4:18 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one more thing
perhaps the comparison to "whores" was uncalled for.  
i sincerely apologize to anyone who may be employed in the sex industry.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 4:24 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dog
A's are winners and usually make the playoffs aka dog bites man, so ho-hum.  These guys take the opposite that sells, man-bites dog.
No Series until a series of unfortunate events.

by ak_A on Dec 21, 2004 6:52 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Numbers
I think the breakdown is less local-vs-national than it still is print-vs-Internet and qualitative-vs-quantitative.

A mainstream, mass-market print article on the trades refers to only a very small set of "intuitive" numbers to tell a clear story: the salaries of Mulder and Hudson, the career and season wins by Mulder and Hudson, and the ages of the prospects acquired. The "story" that these numbers tell is: "Wins cost money, and the A's can't afford to win so they acquired puppies. And Billy Beane is too smart for his own good."

A sabermetrically-inclined Internet article -- whether it comes down in favor of the trades or opposed -- uses the mainstream numbers, but a whole lot of other numbers, too: Mulder and Hudson's declining K/9 innings and increasing WHIP & ERA (and age, for that matter), the salaries being given to mediocre starters by other teams this offseason, and the actual and projected stats of the puppies. The "story" told by the Internet articles is: "Numbers are confusing; big numbers of Monopoly-money contracts are even more confusing; talent evaluation is complex and confusing; and juggling money and statistics is like juggling feathers and chainsaws. And Billy Beane is smart enough to understand all of this, so he must have some plan up his sleeve."

Now, mind you, I'm not saying that's the argument that 'net/stathead writers are making; that's just the takeaway that an average reader gets.

(And I'll resist the temptation to make any parallels to the mainstream media's treatment of any current political issues.)

by monkeyball on Dec 21, 2004 7:09 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well said.
You've nailed it, dude!

by Pepper on Dec 21, 2004 9:54 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some more articles on the trades
another "the sky is falling" article:
Beane's moves have set A's on path of destruction
Dave Newhouse
http://www.insidebayarea.com/athletics/ci_2491614

finally, some fairly decent stories:

Time to put trust in Beane
Trades of Hudson, Mulder hardly a fire sale
John Schlegel
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20041219&content_id=924089&v key=perspectives&fext=.jsp

Breaking up is hard to do
Bob Klapisch
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=1950110

Beane says the future is bright
GM: Fans will be pleased with new trade acquisitions
Mychael Urban
http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/oak/news/oak_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924430 &vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 4:34 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Notice
How the intelligent ones who aren't emotionally connected to the a's, are advocates of this deal. Like gammons, saying BB was doing the right thing and stuff. People like Ray Ratto who cover the A's  for a local newspaper, are blinded by their emotions and overlook the facts of the team.
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 21, 2004 6:11 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Worse than that
I think the smarter guys in the bunch -- like Ratto and Ostler, neither of whom I like much, but they are shrewd and successful columnists -- aren't operating on their own biases, but their perceptions of the biases of the average Chron reader/casual A's fan.

by monkeyball on Dec 21, 2004 6:35 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah
i was trying to say something similar to that.  

ostler impressed me with his column on voting against bonds for the hall of fame.  that's a position where 99% of the casual fans won't agree with you.  that's making a statement that's going to bring some heat on you and then putting your case out there, maybe trying to get some of the casual fans out there to come over to your way of thinking.  

the reason the ostler comparison is so great is because his a's story is literally him going to a raiders game and asking a bunch of drunk fans what they think of the trades.  it's almost like it's a parody of what we're criticizing here.  
and isn't he essentially an opinion columnist?  shouldn't "the view on the street"  story be written by a regular journalist?  

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 8:31 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ken Rosenthal
He also has good things to say about the trades.  Ratto, Newhouse, etc. are egotistical idiots.  Ratto can't even put on a sport coat to appear on SportsCenter.  What a slob.  Newhouse always has a negative air about him.  Give me a Skip Bayless article any day over these two.  He at least makes some could points.

by WayOutInLF14 on Dec 21, 2004 6:46 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

er
good points

by WayOutInLF14 on Dec 21, 2004 6:47 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good enough
to get him a job at espn. Though somehow Ratto got his ass there too. I think if  we weren't local fans we would like him more..
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 21, 2004 7:02 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

AMEN
I was annoyed with the trades at first, and it will probably make me sick if Hudson or Mulder ever get 20+ wins outside of Oakland.

But now, I am happy with it. I really look forward to watching Harden get a lot better, as well as all the new talent we got.

Good lord guys, we did get an AllStar catcher this offseason (Kendall)!

Go A's! All the way from Orlando, FL

by Ryan Hadden on Dec 21, 2004 7:26 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no recourse
These guys can say whatever they want.  At the end of the year if the A's win 90 games you won't here a peep out of them about how wrong they were.  They are not accountable for being wrong most of the time.

They all follow the same blueprint for their articles: Controversy.

They believe taking a risk will result in failure, doing anything but the status quo is wrong.  

And they repeat what they hear, very few of them have original ideas.

Nothing is going to change, stop reading them!

by mwball on Dec 21, 2004 7:41 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's what sells papers....
I hate to keep coming back to "the casual fan", but a casual fan's reaction to the trading of a star player is going to be negative.  The casual fan is not thinking three years down the road or even to 2006, that fan is looking at what is happening TODAY, and I'm guessing that has a lot to do with the negative media coverage.

We cannot forget however, that the media market in the Bay Area is biased towards the Giants and the National League. Particularly when I see  comments like "The A's don't respect tradition", and "you don't trade Hall-Of-famers".  That's the Joe Morgan/I hate the DH/Smallball point of view.

When Barry Bonds retires, things will be different.  But the Giants marketing philosophy has always been about the stars and not the team; and that goes back to Willie Mays.  They have no choice, since they haven't won a World Series in 50 years.

by Rob on Dec 21, 2004 7:50 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

After the season
After the season it could be time to go back and write these fellows a letter. Its easy to shoot your mouth off. They prove that every day. The comments by Kawakami surprised me a little. When writers dont like a trade and do little if any research into it. It comes off as poor journalsim. What is more upsetting is the fact they put down organizations like BA and BP. Taking cheapshoots at every turn. Some writers like to live in a bubble. That is fine. I suppose it is our duty to inform them of their missteps. If an educated journalist can not respect research and clear thought, I have little hope for them.
"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 21, 2004 8:02 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i hope all you guys...
....know what you're talking about because  reading this stuff is making me print it off so i can throw it back in your faces come august.
it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 21, 2004 8:15 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i was just thinking
in some bizarre parallel universe, instead of trading hudson and mulder stupid billy beanse #3924 traded street, garcia, blanton, suzuki, and swisher to the cubs for sammy sosa.  

reaction from local sportswriters: "finally beane gets the a's the 'big outfield bat' the team has sorely needed!"

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 8:40 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually they just kind of suck
Especially Ratto. I really wouldn't care what he thought if the article was simply thoughtful and entertaining. Ratto tries hard to be funny with snarky remarks and 3rd rate Dennis Miller references, but he screws up the execution. Like this, mocking Steve Schott:

"...we really regret having to trade Mark (which they absolutely do not regret at all) but those are the conditions that prevail (yeah, when you're squeezing those quarters so hard that George Washington wishes Cornwallis had shown a little more gumption)."

Whaaa?? It's like he just chooses words randomly, with no sense of context and 2nd grader's understanding of metaphor.

It makes me miss Glenn Dickey. He would actually state an opinion on a relevant issue and then support it with facts and astute observations. Genius!

by Mark H on Dec 21, 2004 9:00 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you..
so much for that. Nice to see I am not alone in loathing the current writing style of baseball hacks.
"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 21, 2004 9:24 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More on Ratto
Well, I see I'm not the only one who thinks Ratto is trying too hard to be clever.  I was actually pretty pissed when the Chronicle dropped Glenn Dickey and retained Ratto, because I far prefer an honest appraisal, even if I don't always agree with it, than a look-at-me-I'm-making-another-smart-remark type of column.  Ugh.  What a waste of newspaper space (and yet I read it; go figure...sportwriter junkie, I guess.)

Of course, I grew up with Jim Murray (LA Times) who really WAS clever.

Did he actually say 60 wins?  Don't even get me started...what a crock.

I am willing to see what happens.  What I am hoping will happen is that these pitchers won't have to always carry the load themselves; does anyone remember how hard it was for the A's to score runs last year?

Sandita

Still not delighted with the trades, but certainly not ready to throw up my hands & say the A's are finished, no matter who says so!!

by Batgal on Dec 21, 2004 4:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

These guys are clowns!
The only one worth reading is Susan Slusser and anyone from ESPN. Skip Bayless is great and I agree about missing Glenn Dickey. You Bloggers are all so cool and brilliant. We should make a plan to meet at fanfest or at a game during the season. Kind of like a mini A's Nation day at the Net.
GO A's!

by mitche82865 on Dec 21, 2004 9:29 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go Blogs!
I would just like to echo what xbhaskarx was saying about blogs.  They have in 1 year changed the way people get news.  They provide a medium for anyone who cares to write how they feel about some subject.  And other people will read and reflect on that post.  Blogs will change the world we live in soon, AN is just a grain of sand on the beach of blogs.  

Did you guys know that there are 40,000 govn't employees in China surveying 600,000 blogs?  That is 1 govn't employee for every 15 blogs!  Pretty soon, the Chinese govn't won't be able to support enough people to control blogs.  That is freedom of speech spreading to China!  Can you imagine that, and it is because of blogs!  

I love AN.  My co-worker told me about this website a couple month ago, and ever since, I check it every day.  I load up this page before espn.  

Reading OUR perspective before I get some jackass sportwriter's perspective allows me to not get brainwashed.  Ok, maybe not brainwashed, but convinced to be say, a Giants fan.  

I love AN.  I love the arguments, the evaluations, the interviews, and most of all, the hatred for the Yankees!  Ok, I like the A's more, but my hatred for the Yankees is a close second.

by Cy Hudson on Dec 21, 2004 9:30 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The guys who whore for MLB as a concept,
the ESPNs, the Foxes, the national press, etc., the guys who are professionals in the sense that it's strictly a business to them, too, yeah, sure, they look at the deals and say "Oakland is building a foundation for the future. And it allows me to show off my knowledge of guys most people have never heard of."

But I think the criticms of the local press -- something I'm normally more than happy to indulge in -- is wrong here. The local guys have the emotional tone right: with these deals, the A's have declared that they won't keep any good, established players.

Ever.

Under current ownership policy, we will never have the right combination of star veterans and promising kids that it takes to win the World Series.

That's what fans and the local writers are reacting to, and I think it's a more accurate and useful response.

by jrbh on Dec 21, 2004 9:31 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow..
Those years when we made it to the playoffs.. We never had a shot a winning the WS? The Yankees/Red Soxs really were better? You dont think any of those teams could have won?

Personally, I think the A's were better. We were just unlucky.

I'm sorry you are, and have been, so down on the team.

"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 21, 2004 9:45 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

winning the world series
"Under current ownership policy, we will never have the right combination of star veterans and promising kids that it takes to win the World Series."

so you disagree with beane's assessment of the baseball postseason being a crapshoot?

the world series winner seems to be the hot team a lot of the time (marlins), at least the current policy has meant lots of playoff berths and lots of opportunities to win.  you can't blame schott for freak plays in game fives of the alds.  

tejada and hudson were "star veterans" right?
chavez and tejada didn't produce offensively against the red sox, byrnes and tejada couldn't manage to touch home plate, hernandez and chavez couldn't manage to tag a runner out in a rundown, hudson was involved in a bar brawl the night before the biggest start of his career.  must be schott's fault.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 9:47 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not EVER?
with these deals, the A's have declared that they won't keep any good, established players.

Ever.

Doesn't Chavez count?

I'd also point to Dye's contract -- he ended up being injured, but the intent was clearly to spend a lot of money to keep a "good, established player."

by Nick on Dec 21, 2004 11:45 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

athletes
good point about Dye. the A's gave up Giambi and Tejada -- one player who's doing well, one who isn't because the guy's health collapsed (for whatever reason).
they signed Chavez and Dye to big money contracts -- one may work out, the other definitely didn't because the guy got injured too often.
 I suspect one of the two of them, Mulder or Hudson, will have a great career and the other will be forever injury prone.
 Barry Bonds is very unusual. Basically, human athletes (like thoroughbred horses) are risking injury all the time. You have about a 50-50 chance with any big-money player, decreasing as his age rises (look at Kevin Brown). So unless you're the Yankees and can afford anyone you want, having more good prospects may be a lower-risk strategy than  signing a few superstars.  

by vk on Dec 21, 2004 4:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

YOU GOT THE BELL CURVE WRONG
Are you related to Oliver Stone.  These theories that you come up with, they're so distorted.    

Vis This, dost thus have thou for thus.  Do you have a Mug of Ale for me and me mate Shipp-Bixby.  

What did you get Bear88 for Christmas, pillows?

You have a wealth of knowledge on minor league prospects, so much so that you and Sickles should collaborate on a Prospectus with Varros, and devote a section to VORP.  IMHO, FWIW where was I going with this?  I don't know, because I'm too confused by JRBH psycho babble.  

MERRY CHRISTMAS AN

MERRY CHRISTMAS JOE MORGAN

MERRY CHRISTMAS ROD SMART and EARTHWIND MORELAND  

     

by Misfit on Dec 21, 2004 1:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never is a strong word! Especially considering...
all that the A's have accomplished over the past 6 years.
   The local media's response to the trade, whether they realize it or not was visceral in nature. Their analyses of the players involved was inadequate to say the least. They,like the rest of us who prclaim our loyalty to a particular team can't help but become emtionally attached to the people/players they interview (as long as they are willing to 'work with' the press).
   So as we have had to sort through the loss of players that we've grown attached to, so have they. Their catharsis is their keyboard, now it's ours too! Therefore, what they say gets scrutinized and analyzed like all of us.
   Getting back to your comment, history doesn't fortunately back you up. The A's of the early 70's were 'great' we all agree, but we have to remember that they didn't have the same playoff structure that exists today. Not that they would have won it but that they could have been knocked out given the increased number of games now played.
   If we look back at Anaheim, Arizona and Florida over the past several years, we have excellent examples of teams that the A's matched well against. The season series against Anaheim was won by Oakland that year. We also swept AZ when we played them on their turf (Mulder pitched a beauty!). Florida kicked our butts but hey, cant win 'em all.
   Ultimately, there is no way to quantify a winning formula for getting to the WS much better than what BB has done in Oakland. At best, all any team can hope for is an opportunity. Just look at the Yankees, they're ready to break down Fort Knox once again to try to win it. All of their spending has guaranteed them nothing, absolutely nothing.
   I suppose its easy to get jaded as an A's fan and to become cynical as we watch this process that reveals the inequality of baseball's haves and have-nots. But I refuse to think, especialy after the 'curse' being broken that we will NEVER get back to the WS and win it all.

by Gerard on Dec 21, 2004 3:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol
I remember when Giambi didn't slide and Tejada stopped running (along with everything else that was previously mentioned).  It just makes me laugh when I think about all the crappy stuff that has happened to the A's in the playoffs.  

Do you guys remember against the Twins when the A's almost batted out of order to lose game 5?

If Beane wants a WS champion, he needs to buy a bottle of "Jerry Garcia" (Half Baked).  Then we would have the right combination of luck and skill.

by Cy Hudson on Dec 21, 2004 10:01 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its your chance...
MEET THE NEW SPORTS EDITOR
LIVE: Today at Noon Craig Lancaster is running the sports department at the Mercury News, He's been at it for a couple of months now and he would like to hear from you. Send in your questions and suggestions now.

If you goto the Mercury News website.. you can ask the sports editor questions... Like.. why all the negative A's talk?

"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 21, 2004 10:13 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ratto
jrbh, don't you ever tire of your redundant condemnation of the A's ownership and membership? Oh, I forgot...you are a charter member of OAFC and the parroting of their party line "protecting our legacy."

Instead of finding something positive in the A's reaching the playoffs in four of the past five years, the OAFC whiners only follow the Athletics and post such bile because they live to hate...

Re: Ratto. He has contempt for the A's ownership and feels he must express it in print every fortnight. He also must envy Billy Beane as he has only negative things to say about baseball's best GM. Ratto never could explain how both astute ownership and a superlative GM has made a small revenue team true winners (rather than "buyers" as are the Yanks and BoSox).

Oh yeah, the reason Ratto doesn't wear a sports coat is that they don't come in sizes that wide.

Glenn Dickey is certainly missed. He is an infinitely more gifted writer than Ratto and quite astute when it comes to analysis, praising teams when they merit it and criticizing them when they don't. He doesn't see the world in Ratto's black and white. And when he was critical, he could support his contentions. For example, he quite early noted Art Howe's incompetence as a strategist as well as the ramifications of Howe's inability to instill clubhouse discipline. Howe's manifest failure with the $100 million payroll of the Mets speaks volumes.

The Chron's sports section would be infinitely more readable if it would bring back both Dickey and Tom Fitzgeralds' columns and fire Ratto's fat ass. I wonder if Ratto can appreciate the fact that the Chron dumped Dickey and Fitz and kept Ratto for "economic reasons." Guess the Rat can't see the irony in this, given his condemnation of Beane and Scott for being alleged "penny-pinchers."

by reztips on Dec 21, 2004 10:14 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

JRBH quit your bellyaching!
Don't you see with the young guns and mix of veterans for this year combined with the grit we added we have the best mix to win it all, if not this year then definitely next? Billy made the moves to make us competitive this year and ws champs in 2006. Can't you just go with it and not be so negative like the Ray Ratsos of the ink trade?
GO A's!

by mitche82865 on Dec 21, 2004 10:26 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see both sides
Every A's fan wants to think these trades were shrewd, that the guys we got will be the centerpieces of an A's revival.  The ESPN guys and the stat-obsessed bloggers can cite a bunch of numbers that say these are actually good deals for the future.  And maybe they are.  I've been annoyed that there has been little attempt in the local media to evaluate the trades based on the players the A's are getting, as well as the risks of keeping Hudson and Mulder.  Why do I have to turn to ESPN or bloggers to get information I should get in my local sports page?

But jrbh has a point too.  Beane didn't make these trades because he wanted to.  He made the trades because he had to.  Hopefully, Beane got as much in return as possible.

But this was a decision driven by money that the owners are unwilling to spend because they want to keep turning a profit every year.  (We'll see how that works out, as attendance may fall precipitously if the A's are out of contention for most of next year.)  The local reaction is going to be negative, both because we just lost two of the best pitchers in baseball and because of what it says about the A's.  The negative reaction by local columnists reflects that.  That seems fair.

If Hudson and/or Mulder do not perform well for whatever reason and the young players we got in return blossom, you can be sure that everyone will hail Beane as a genius.  Schott will even get a little credit, as this will become part of a pattern of refusing to overpay for talent on the downswing.

But it's a little early to be saying any of that.  Hudson and Mulder could go 1-2 for the NL Cy Young award, and none of the prospects we got could pan out.

Nobody knows - yet.

by bear88 on Dec 21, 2004 10:54 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most Journalists are Lazy Hacks
If you ever spent a game in the media center watching these clowns chow down on the free food and complain about being underpaid and overworked you would lower your view of them a little more. They are amazing.
What is interesting is most of these hacks are lifers going no where. They are reporters - not players, not owners, not newsmakers - just reporters. Most of whom started by writting obits for a local rag. This is why they have such positive outlooks....real men of vision.
They haven't noticed that baseball has changed- the World Champ Red Sox has lost half their starting rotation. The Yankees have tossed out most of their high priced pitching to get new higher priced, older guys. The NY media is pissing all over a guy who two years ago was named Giambino for his Ruthian resemblance. How many players from the 2003 WS champ Angels are still there? Not so many.
After three years of decline Billy Beane is gambling and going a different direction. Billy talks about it, shares his direction, goes on Ralph and Tom and answers questions. To compare him with that jerk York who hides in Ohio is journalistic incompetence.
Why Ratto feels he is qualified to trash Steve Schott as a capitalist pig is beyond me. He is a rich and successful business man. He gives alot to charity - including a baseball stadium to Santa Clara U. among others. It might be nice if he subsidized the A's like the Haas family but even they had to stop.
What has Ratto done for Society besides spread depression? What a guy.

by Aparicio11 on Dec 21, 2004 10:54 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this is lame ...
Look, I'm addicted to this website, because I love to interact.  NOT because I think we are collectively more talented than the paid sportswriters out there.

Nor does using sabermetrics make any of us more intelligent than a writer who fails to use sabermetrics.  It's a tool, but it shouldn't be necessary to support your argument.  The best arguments in support of the Hudson/Mulder trades I've read in the last few days have not relied on VORP or win/shares.  You don't need that.  If you're talking to someone else who speaks that language, great, but if you're talking to an audience that includes casual fans, you'd better limit yourselves to tools that people can understand.  You can mock their lack of understanding of sabermetrics, but then you're just a small island of snobs, unappreciated by the non-sabermetric-knowing publiic.  And then I like how people go on and on about how we've corned the market on "intellectual rigor" here at AN, and then support their arguments by pointing out that Ray Ratto is a fatass.

 

by rubin sierra on Dec 21, 2004 11:05 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well
Certain people might be willing to believe another person's opinions based on his/her  optimism/pessimism, but I enjoy the arguments supported by the numbers. If the person  making the comment feels it necessary to use VORP or win shares then so be it. True, nobody should mock another's inability to understand the numbers. But as far as someone using statistics...if he/she feels that it's needed for the argument, I don't see a problem.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 12:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sabermetrics
I would say that the people who are most down on the Hudson and Mulder trades are the ones who lack the tools to break it down objectively.  If I know nothing about baseball stats and how they apply to winning then I am very mad at trading these guys.  To me they are a highly sought after commodity (2 very good young starting pitchers).

However if I can break it down numbers wise I start to see how the trade is justified.  The fact that the dropoff from Hudson/Mulder to their replacement is not that great.  That signing Kendall, Ginter and having a bullpen will likely offset that.  

Using Win Shares, Vorp, ERA+  whatever you want to use.  But people should have at least the basic knowledge.  At least know what OPS is.

 

by Piratepete7 on Dec 21, 2004 2:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

take it easy dar pirateboypete...
...because you sound like a snottynosed 16 yr with nothing else better to do on your Xmas holidays than to come on here and make an ass of yourself.

i know vorp,win shares,ops. i have read james, neyer, and moneyball.  its that condescending intellectual highbrow shit you just wrote that really makes me shake my head.

sabermatrics is a theory. pure and simply. if a theorist is smart (some are-some aren't) flexibility and open mindedness is part of the equation. some a's "fans" are actual fans of sabermetrics, others are "fans" of the baseball team and others are actually "fans" of the people that wear the jerseys. i happen to believe there is room under the "a's tent" for all.

if you are truly "into" sabermetrics you'ii know there are sabermetric websites. with that above attitude why don't you surf over there and be as fuckin' "objective" as you want. if you want to do some "saber" stuff and post it, fine i'ii probably read it. please, lose the attitude.

baseball is a game played by human beings. sabermetrics is a theory which attempts to explain various dynamics within a game. point is, some believe in "the theory"- some don't. its OK.

   

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 21, 2004 4:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A Theory?
So is evolution just a theory?  That attempts to explain something?  

How about economic theory?  That must try to explain as well.

Those are perfectly acceptable theories that when applied in their respective fields are quite explanatory and predictive.

I realise that there are different types of fans.

But there is no need to whine that the A's will be hard pressed to win 65 games next year.  

by Piratepete7 on Dec 21, 2004 5:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure there is ...
If you believe that the A's are only going to win 65 games this year and are (righfully) upset about it.

And yes, the Theory of Evolution, and economic theory are theoretical. They are almost certainly more or less true ... but remain unprovable and, thus, theories.

I'm a huge stat head, but SABRmetrics is far from perfectly predictive.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 21, 2004 5:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sabermetrics
I will never say that they are perfect because nothing is.  

But they put the deals back into proportion.  Breaking it down more allows people to see who we got not just who we gave up.

I immensely saddened by Huddy and Mulder's departures.  It makes me hate the Yankees even more, if that's possible.

We didn't give them up for nothing, that's what matters now.

Just a thought, how cool would it be if Hudson comes back to the A's after the 2005 season and signs a reasonable deal?

by Piratepete7 on Dec 21, 2004 6:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ya beat me to it devo, thanks
and i'ii say this, devo knows his way around his trusty texas instrument calculator better than most on this blog.
it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 21, 2004 6:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yikes
I would say that the people who are most down on the Hudson and Mulder trades are the ones who lack the tools to break it down objectively.

oh, boy.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 5:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not funny
On the Brian Murphy morning show on KNBR they broadcast a "bit" called "Billy's Holiday Sale"--made to sound like a store adverstisement--proclaiming the Holiday Fire sale of premier starting pitchers and including testimonials from "satisfied customers" like the Braves GM "I got a number one starter with the best W/L percentage in baseball over the past few years and I didn't even have to give up my starting second baseman....it was like stealing".
  Obviously KNBR has a wierd perception of the definition of "stealing".  Yo!  SF Giant sycophants--did Barry Bonds steal his HR record? How about his MVP awards?  Does SBC stand for "So Bonds Cheated"?
  I can't wait for Beane to finish his plan--and for the A's to (once again) outperform the Midgets.

by Napasteve on Dec 21, 2004 11:10 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

AN addict
Please let me just stop visiting this website.  Everybody on here would seemingly follow Billy Beane right off a cliff, and I don't know why I even want to check in with my disagreement; it can only get laughed off the stage amidst this fanatical loyal to the A's GM.  

And yet, I'm caught up in the issue, for whatever reason.  So we have Schott, and we have BB.  And Schott sets the amount he's willing to spend, and BB allocates it.  And BB has made a name for himself by working with strict limitations, so he can spend HALF what the Red Sox spend and a THIRD of what the Yanks spend.  

He's made so much of a name for himself doing that, that you almost start to think that he prefers it that way, that he LIKES being held around $60 mill., that he particularly likes telling people about the risks he's taking with these trades, turning the status quo on its head, et cetera.  

That's the argument the "lazy hacks" are making--not that BB's not good at using a dollar, but that he's all-too-willing to agree to a low payroll ceiling, and Schott's all-too-willing to give him one, in hopes that BB will be that much more of a genius if the A's win, and Schott will make a handsome profit in the meantime.  

And the criticism is way off-base if the A's profits are just enough to pay everybody what they need, but his criticism is right on target if Schott's taking home eight figures by himself--if he can afford it, he needs to spend some moneyh on this team, for even you Moneyballers wouldn't argue that it helps to have a higher payroll.  Would you?  

by rubin sierra on Dec 21, 2004 11:38 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Question
What is Billy supposed to do if he shouldn't be so willing to agree with the low payroll? What's the alternative? Who are we blaming here?

Also, is it such a crime to be so extremely loyal to the GM? I mean, nobody here as actually thrown himself off a cliff.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 12:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm a jumper!
Do I really have another choice?
"Fear leads to hate, and hate......leads to the Darkside."-Yoda

by Force on Dec 21, 2004 1:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

God bless you ...
... for your faith, and I am coming around to it, I really am.  That is, okay, maybe the A's weren't going to be able to keep 2 out of 3 aces, and this was the time to cash them in at their peak exchange value.  MAYBE.  I'm coming around to it, because, as you say, Force--what choice do we have as A's fans?

But to answer your question, Sharon (and to do so constructively and intelligently, as is urged later on in this thread)--the problem with blind loyalty is that it disallows criticism.  To me, it seems like this thread started out as a celebration of this type of blind loyalty, with the ceremonious lynchings of Ratto, Ostler and all those others who would dare be critical of our BB under any circumstances.  

Such a fanatical "all criticize the A's must die" sort of attitude would fit in great in the A's PR department, and actually that's a good conspiracy theory--this blog has been permeated and saturated by A's PR agents.  If so, spies, you're doing a great job.  

But for those of you who are attempting to do your own critical thinking, then I don't see why you'd take any criticism directed at the A's personally.  Journalists are absolutely NOT supposed to regurgitate the team's press releases.  They're supposed to be critical, because WE THE FANS deserve the best product the owners can put out there.  

by rubin sierra on Dec 21, 2004 8:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand...
what you're saying.

But I wish writers were also more objective in their judgement of Billy Beane and the A's. I think a lot of the reaction against Ratto, Ostler, and just about everyone is that we've had to endure constant criticism of our favorite team while it's winning games on the field. My trust in "journalists" is severely lacking. I never expect objectivity b/c I know I'm not going to get it most of the time.

I guess you can call it the Joe Morgan Syndrome. It's "baseball men" like him that have(at times) made it difficult to enjoy the A's.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 10:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes...
I can get the fact that journalists aren't supposed to cut and paste press releases, but a little objectivity would be welcome.  When Rhodes was accquired last year I read all the news reports on him, did a little reasearch and said, "We'll wait and see."  I wasn't one who went all in and said "Beane's a genius!  Rhodes will get 40 saves, forget Foulke!"

I really dislike Ratto, I think he is very much full of himself, you can feel that from his writing.  But I read everything objectively, and sometimes he writes something good.  Like when the Angels clinched the AL West this year he wrote an article about the A's and I though it ws very insightful.  Like as I've said before, he's Jim Rome minus humor and tact with at least twice the asshole factor.

I like Romey, he's a funny asshole, he's like that one friend that makes fun of you and all of your other friends and he's so dead on.  I feel that Ratto wants to be edgy like Rome, but fails at it.

I'm tired of all of the "prophets of the apocalypse."  They've bashed the team when they're good, they've bashed the team especially now, when they seem bad, it sometimes seem that the Bay Area media is more deferential to the Giants, at least the steroid thing won't go away.  

Look, I know the A's aren't making it to the playoffs next year, I knew it the moment Mulder was traded.  I also know that they won't suck and I'll still have fun going to baseball games and showing up at 10 AM to get my bobbleheads.  Speaking of wich, all my A's bobbleheads ae ex-players, with the exception of Zito.

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

by secret ASian man on Dec 21, 2004 11:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with criticism, or even...
...negative opinions.

When it gets ridiculous is when people don't pay attention to the words they are using.

  1. Saying the A's keep NONE of their talented stars is a slap in the face to Eric Chavez. As another poster noted, signed Dye to a big contract in the prime of his career also showed a big committment that, unfortunately didn't pan out.
  2. Saying that the A's had NO SHOT of winning a WS title the past 5 years. The failures are embarassing, yes. But you do not take an ALDS to 5 games for four straight years if you have NO shot.
I'm happy to hear both sides, the cliff jumpers and the nay-sayers. The only time I get annoyed is when people don't choose their words carefully and end up taking positions that are easily refuted, and make them look silly in the process.

Three cheers for CONSTRUCTIVE, INTELLIGENT DISAGREEMENT!! :-) :-)

by nodaclu on Dec 21, 2004 1:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

$60 mil
"He's made so much of a name for himself doing that, that you almost start to think that he prefers it that way, that he LIKES being held around $60 mill."

yes, i think he does like it, he sees it as a challenge.  what's wrong with that?

if that scares you, i recommend following the yankees, red sox, or angels instead of beane and the a's.  their gm's don't have the money issues the a's have.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 4:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gewn Knapp
Anyone know if she's related to Greg Knapp the old Niners/new Falcons coach?

by frisco03 on Dec 21, 2004 12:15 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what?
Call me crazy, but I LIKE being the true underdog team. It's not as much fun when everyone expects you to win.

I think it will mean a little bit more when we do. ;)

Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 21, 2004 12:34 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's going to be fun...
to watch the young guys. I'm really excited. And it's definitely rewarding to win when everyone think's you'll lose.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 12:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed
What fun is it being an Angel fan right now.  They know their team is going to run away with the division this year.  They entered the rare air of the Yanks and the Sox, and are turning into EVIL EMPIRE WEST.  

We have a collection of young players that will be fun to watch for years.  We groom and develop players, rather than signing Vlad,Bart, and Steve.  

Merry Christmas Joe Morgan and Rod Smart

by Misfit on Dec 21, 2004 2:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

like they "ran away" with it in 2004?
The Angels won the AL West by only one game. With the A's collapse in September that fat Angels payroll should have run away with it.

They have not improved this offseason. they may end up winning the division, but the other teams will definitely give them a run for their money.

by OaklandSi on Dec 21, 2004 3:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

JD Drew
What's the deal with all the JD Drew talk? I've read some of the reactions to the Hudson and Mudler deals, and a lot include the possiblity of the A's signing Drew. Is this just the failure of others to see that the A's are bringing the payroll down this season, or is it a possibility? I'm inclined to think it's just talk. I don't see how it's possible given the budget.

by Sharon on Dec 21, 2004 12:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was thinking the same thing
much as it would be great to add a big bat, Drew is looking for $10 million/yr for 5 years. He ain't gonna get that from the A's. SF or LA might be possibilities, however.

by OaklandSi on Dec 21, 2004 12:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a little like Sabean's Matt Williams trade
Remember that? Within weeks of taking the GM job, Sabean traded Matt Williams, kept the less popular but obviously better Barry Bonds and was pilloried by popular sentiment.  As it turned out, Sabean has been able to use the cred he garnered from that trade working out the way it did in all his subsequent deling with the media.

Beane has never done something that seemed this radical, trading Mulder and Hudson is not the same as losing players to free agency... the benefit of the doubt is removed from the home team.  Whereas in free agency negotiations, we never are sure enough what the terms really are, AND the player who leaves always can be painted as greedy for 'putting money first', in trades it does fall all on the GM.

When Grieve was traded, Damon came in return.  When Ramon was traded, Kotsay came in return. When Koch was traded, Foulke came in return.  This time we received a package of players for All-Stars, of course it seems startling compared to what Beane has done in the past, so the narrative becomes that the A's are blowing up the team, or are too cheap to compete.  

None of this takes into account where the A's are in their success cycle, that the market seems to be drastically over-valuing starting pitching this off season... not to mention that the expected win difference between a #3 starter and a #2 is not that much, upgrading a position player from below average to above average is worth more than doing the same for a starter.  It's not surprising that this is subtle stuff.

But for me the real question that sportswriters SHOULD be able to focus on is whether it is worth it to go for broke one more season, knowing that the downside is probably an expensive and not good team for a couple years OR whether you pull the plug when you can and keep having a veteran/youth mix that has much less chance of cratering for three or four seasons.  

When I read the Kevin Goldstein chat at BA about the A's prospects, what struck me was that after Blanton, the A's didn't have anyone that they could reliably project to be a decent major league starter:  they have some possibilities, but no one that has crossed the threshold to being able to penciled in to the major league team.  The A's were looking at a post big three of Harden, Blanton, and three question marks without projectable answers...

The money situation makes acquiring guys via free agency difficult or impossible, but these trades happened not so much because of that as because it became clear that if Hudson and Mulder left via free agency, receiving draft picks for them would not have provided the next wave of pitching help in time.  Billy has been walking the razor's edge for five years now, adding and subtracting pieces to win now. He is now easing off from doing that, trading 5-7 wins this year for 5-7 wins the next three or four years.  That is the story here, but it's the lack of SABR principles among sportswriters that believe that subtracting Mulder and Hudson means subtracting their win totals from the team.  They think Billy traded away 15-30 TEAM wins, this is where some "elitist" stat-geek type people really do know better.

by jakarta on Dec 21, 2004 1:20 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The irony of it all
First things first, wow a lowly diary of mine made it into the "big page" thanks, Blez.

Now on the business.

I thought rooting for the underdog is embeded deep into the American Psyche, they why we have movies like the Bad News Bears, Miracle, Cool Runnings and even the horrible, horrible Mighty Ducks franchise.

We Americans always love an underdog story, and that is your Oakland Athletics.  We play with the the overspending Evil Empries, we spend a third of the Yankees and put out a similar product, albeit with less flair.

How come the media just blasts Beane and the A's for doing exactly what they should be doing, Underdog stuff.

I wonder how they're going to eat crow when the A's do their 2nd half run and make a damn good shot at the playoffs.

My predictions:

A's will miss playoffs in '05 (but not by much)

World Series Champs '06 (just let me dream)

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

by secret ASian man on Dec 21, 2004 4:51 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn't give anybody the division just yet
the games still have to be played. If the Angels stay healthy they will be favored to win the division. But that's a big if. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that at the end of the season all four AL west teams will be fairly close in the W/L columns. Who actually ends up winning depends alot on the injury situation in Anaheim, plus whoever of the other three comes on top with their risky starting rotations.

by OaklandSi on Dec 22, 2004 6:45 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some Observations
I'm making an assumption of basic good will from other posters on AN when I use certain phrases, and it's probably a good idea not to do that. So let me explain my use of certain rhetorical devices.

When I say they A's will keep "none" of their established stars, I don't mean that literally. They have indeed, as someone pointed out, kept Chavy.

On the other hand, they've let go Mulder, Hudson, Tejada, Giambi, Damon, Isringhausen and Foulke. We kept Dye strictly because his contract made him untradeable. Anyone want to bet on whether Kendall completes his third year in Oakland?

Vis. Zito, I bet all of us can agree that he won't be back after the next year or two: if he goes out and pitches like a Cy Young pitcher again, we'll pronounce him too expensive. If he has another crappy year, we'll say we can't afford mediocrity at his prices.

The clock's ticking on Harden, too: if he's the stud everyone (including me) thinks he's going to be, he's got two or three years left here, tops. Just as he's becoming a superstar veteran, he'll be gone as well.

The system, as the A's have defined it, makes it impossible to put together the whole deal all at once here in Oakland. The success of the last few years was dependent on an explosion of talent in one organization rarely seen in baseball history; it's not going to happen again here, and without it, we can't compete.

When I say the A's will "never" win the World Series, I don't mean that it's a metaphysical certainty that we'll never see another championship banner in Oakland. I mean that we'll become a version of the White Sox, some good years, mostly bad, and, hey, lightning will strike every once in a while.

by jrbh on Dec 22, 2004 9:30 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Absolutes
How do you come up with this nonsense, Ratto Jr.? How do you predict the future? How do you make so many extreme statements with complete confidence?

How do you know who will be here and who won't? Have you and Billy Beane been discussing the direction of the team? When Mulder was falling apart last season you were begging to replace him with Blanton. Now he's gone and you think it's the end of the world for the team.

Stop saying things like "impossible" and "I bet all of us can agree." I'm amazed by your claims to be such a knowledgeable and dedicated fan while you moan about how awful players, coaches, fans, ticket prices, and management are. Always speak for yourself because there are enough people around who completely disagree with your histrionic comments. Are you a fan of the A's or a fan of complaining about the A's?  

by Reg on Dec 22, 2004 10:05 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lightning
when was the last time lightning struck for the white sox?  hell, when was the last time they made the playoffs?  i honestly don't remember.  

the a's have played one meaningless game in the last half decade and you're ready to call them the new white sox?

other than that, yes, you're right, some players will be too good to keep, others will not be good enough or will too risky to sign.  beane has to choose carefully.  it looks like he made the right choice in keeping chavez over tejada or giambi considering crosby turned out ok.  let's hope he keeps making good decisions.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 22, 2004 10:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Picking a random year - 1986
I promise, as I write this, I have no idea what is going to turn out.

In 1996, 13 pitchers received more than 1 vote in the Cy Young balloting.

Pat Hentgen
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
Charles Nagy
Mike Mussina

John Smoltz
Kevin Brown
Andy Benes
Hideo Nomo
Trevor Hoffman
Greg Maddux
Todd Worrell
Denny Neagle

First I'll give the closers the ax. Now, for how many of these guys would a 4 year, top dollar contract have been a good idea?

Great (no season below 125 era+, average of 140+)

Brown
Maddux

Good (3 or more seasons of 130+ era+ or average of 125+)

Mussina
Smoltz

Okay (3 of 120+ or average 115+)

Pettitte
Neagle

Poor (Average between 100 and 115)

Hentgen
Benes

Bad (Average below 100 or make fewer than 70 starts/140 G (for reliever))

Nagy
Nomo

Only Kevin Brown was old enough that a typical GM might have been worried about his future.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 22, 2004 10:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some things to cheer you up
Since you can't seem to say anything without someone hammering you.

The A's control Harden's rights for at lest the next four years. I figure Beane lets him pitch the 2005 season for $325K or whatever and then signs him to a four year deal starting in 2006. 2010 is a long time coming so there is no sense worrying about that.

You're right about the A's hitting a lucky streak with the talent they've developed in the last 7 years, starting with Tejada in 1997. To expect one system to continue such a pipeline is unrealistic, but Beane has found a way to tap into two other farm systems (St. Louis and Atlanta) in an effort to keep feeding the big league team. Oakland's farm system has to keep producing, but by trading Hudson and Mulder he has created a bumper crop that could be just as good as the 1997 group. Admittitedly none of them could pan out but we have to see them on the field before we can make that judgement.

by grover on Dec 22, 2004 11:08 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Viz.
I don't mean to pile on, jrbh, but I would hardly say that the A's "let go" Foulke. Foulke, almost as much as Giambi, used the A's for leverage. Beane made a strenuous and good-faith effort to keep Foulke.

Which, of course, doesn't mitigate your deeper point, that the A's didn't allocate enough money to beat Boston's offer.

As for the others on your list, I (and a few others) feel that the A's were, are, and will be better off not having most, if not all, of them tied up long-term.

And if Beane moves Kendall before his final contract year (which, I agree, it's highly likely he'll do), by that point it's a safe bet that at least one of our flotilla of catching prospects will be ready for prime time.

by monkeyball on Dec 23, 2004 7:46 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Four More Years
Well, let's say that Harden becomes a stud. (Him not becoming a stud is too depressing to think about.)

Why wouldn't Beane, facing the same situation he did with Hudson and Mulder, do the exact thing with Harden and dump him after the 2006 season?

by jrbh on Dec 22, 2004 11:17 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Studly this year you mean?
If Harden does emerge in 2005 he still has no leverage to demand big money. Beane should be able to lock up Harden at $11-12 million total over a four year time period. The A's can certainly afford that. That number might spike if an option year similiar to what the Big 3 got is added on.

by grover on Dec 22, 2004 11:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not the same situation.
Harden's situation at this juncture is similar to Zito 2002, Mulder 2001, and Hudson 2000.

I wouldn't be surprised if BB signs him to an extension during the season.

by Sharon on Dec 22, 2004 11:41 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just saying that Foulke is one of...
...the best relief pitchers in baseball, and we "let him go" in the sense that we wouldn't pay him the going rate for someone of his ability.

He exactly fits the model I'm talking about.

by jrbh on Dec 23, 2004 11:53 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hold on
Foulke said $6 million.

The A's offered $6 million.

Boston ultimately offered him $8 million.

Even if Oakland had offered him more than $8 milion do you believe the Boston wouldn't have gone higher? The A's will never win a bidding war in the free agent market.

by grover on Dec 23, 2004 1:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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DLD 6/30/09: Pardon me if I'm sentimental

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A's ballpark needs to be modified
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next A's philosophy: High $ International FA signings and High draft picks- pitchers only
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A's demands for Holiday
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GOG 2009 #27
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Minor Athletics on vacation -- Minor League Dump
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Quick Texas League All-Star Game Recap
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Does Sabean still like gritty veterans?
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A'S/Red Sox 2001 classic game on now on A's CSN channel 698 on direct tv

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