The Media
Have you guys noticed that the only good press the A's have been receiving is been on the internet from mlb.com and espn.com? There might be something good on BA but since I don't pay for it, I really don't know if it's good or bad.
The local media are lambasting the trades like it's the second coming of the sucky 49ers. Ray Ratto (boy do I hate that guy, he's so full of himself, basically Jim Rome with no sense of humor or tact plus of alot of asshole factor) said it outright on ESPN that the A's are "lucky to win 60 games" next season.
Here's the breakdown of some of the recent articles regarding the end of the Big 3
Bob Klapisch, ESPN.com 12/14/04
Peter Gammons, ESPN.com 12/18/04 and 12/16/04
Tim Kawakami, San Jose Mercury 12/20/04
Scott Ostler, SF Chron 12/19/04 and 12/20/04
Ray Ratto, SF Chron 12/19/04
You guys get the gist, right, and you probably have read them as much as I have in the past few days.
What strikes me as funny is that the Kawakami and Ostler articles were pretty much the same thing. Lots of loud proclamations that the end of A's baseball is nigh, they're going to suck next year, the fans will stay home or (gasp) become Giants fans.
Also whenever they had the "fan perspective" it's always one-sided, skewed towards. "I hate the trade and ownership." It's not at all like the dialogue we have here at AN, but what do we know, we all just a bunch of Baseball America and SABR nerds.
I guess sounding rational doesn't sell newspapers.
Well I'd like say that I believe the A's won't suck next year, how good they will be, I do not know. I will go to games next year and not jump ship and become yet another dumb Giants fan rooting for Barry "BALCO" Bonds.
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local sportswriters on the recent trades
i know i'm very pissed off about it.
my theory is that the local media will pretty much always come out against a trade in which the local team gives up stars for prospects.
these "sportswriters" have the intelligence, long term memory, and vision of the average baseball fan, meaning none at all.
no athlete matters unless he's a big name star: regularly mentioned on sportscenter or drafted in the first two rounds of fantasy leagues.
and there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to take into account whether or not a player is injury prone, about to go into decline, already over the hill, or if a similar player is available for much cheaper (hey, it's not their money).
this works out for them on multiple levels:
first, the average joe sixpack fan will agree with their take on the trades, which means love mail probably outnumbers hate mail 10 to 1.
second, it's a far better story to declare that the a's are going to finish in last place, beane has gone crazy, and the ownership = charles finley than to try to explain (using actual statistics and arguments that require baseball knowledge) why a trade may not be such a bad thing in the long term.
third, why would they want to write stories about a bunch of no-name players. it's not going to sell as many papers as columns on slugger giambi, energetic tejada, tough hudson, laid back guy mulder, eccentric rocker zito, etc.
and it would be a lot more work to have to actually learn about new players.
also, the national media's not going to care what ray ratto has to say this week about keith ginter.
fourth, there's not enough information to determine whether trades such as these work out for a few years, and by then, nobody will remember some old article they wrote about it years ago.
finally, if the media is wrong, it's not like they lose their jobs. if beane listens to them and the average fan, and the team ends up in the cellar from 2006-2010 instead of only being uncompetitive for one year, he's the one who could be out of a job.
and why would the sportswriters care, even that is a great story for them: the collapse of billy beane.
i'm not sure if they're a bunch of whores who are only interested in tabloid headlines that sell papers or if they actually have no baseball knowledge whatsoever. after all, did they get their jobs as sportswrites because they know something about sports or because they went to journalism school?
they don't seem to be familiar with concepts such as win shares and VORP. heck, even WHIP or K/9 innings. even their take on beane's philosophy is simplistic: he likes on base percentage.
blogs like this are part of a new free market media (as opposed to the big media oligarchy) that is available to almost everyone (with a computer). at least people are held accountable for what they write here and readers can leave feedback in public. i know the first place i come to when something happens with the a's is this blog, and that's the reason the old media will eventually die.
i'm really starting to get sick of this nonsense. i don't know what we can really do about it, except maybe do what s.a.m. has already started to do with this diary: keep a record of all the articles that have been written about this deal.
we shouldn't forget what these sportswriters had to say about our a's at this critical juncture, and we shouldn't let them forget it either.
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 4:18 AM PST
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one more thing
i sincerely apologize to anyone who may be employed in the sex industry.
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 4:24 AM PST
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Numbers
A mainstream, mass-market print article on the trades refers to only a very small set of "intuitive" numbers to tell a clear story: the salaries of Mulder and Hudson, the career and season wins by Mulder and Hudson, and the ages of the prospects acquired. The "story" that these numbers tell is: "Wins cost money, and the A's can't afford to win so they acquired puppies. And Billy Beane is too smart for his own good."
A sabermetrically-inclined Internet article -- whether it comes down in favor of the trades or opposed -- uses the mainstream numbers, but a whole lot of other numbers, too: Mulder and Hudson's declining K/9 innings and increasing WHIP & ERA (and age, for that matter), the salaries being given to mediocre starters by other teams this offseason, and the actual and projected stats of the puppies. The "story" told by the Internet articles is: "Numbers are confusing; big numbers of Monopoly-money contracts are even more confusing; talent evaluation is complex and confusing; and juggling money and statistics is like juggling feathers and chainsaws. And Billy Beane is smart enough to understand all of this, so he must have some plan up his sleeve."
Now, mind you, I'm not saying that's the argument that 'net/stathead writers are making; that's just the takeaway that an average reader gets.
(And I'll resist the temptation to make any parallels to the mainstream media's treatment of any current political issues.)
by monkeyball on
Dec 21, 2004 7:09 AM PST
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Some more articles on the trades
Beane's moves have set A's on path of destruction
Dave Newhouse
http://www.insidebayarea.com/athletics/ci_2491614
finally, some fairly decent stories:
Time to put trust in Beane
Trades of Hudson, Mulder hardly a fire sale
John Schlegel
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20041219&content_id=924089&v key=perspectives&fext=.jsp
Breaking up is hard to do
Bob Klapisch
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=1950110
Beane says the future is bright
GM: Fans will be pleased with new trade acquisitions
Mychael Urban
http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/oak/news/oak_news.jsp?ymd=20041220&content_id=924430 &vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 4:34 AM PST
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another positive article
by Skip Bayless
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041223
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 23, 2004 10:17 AM PST
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Notice
by ohad on
Dec 21, 2004 6:11 AM PST
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Worse than that
by monkeyball on
Dec 21, 2004 6:35 AM PST
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yeah
ostler impressed me with his column on voting against bonds for the hall of fame. that's a position where 99% of the casual fans won't agree with you. that's making a statement that's going to bring some heat on you and then putting your case out there, maybe trying to get some of the casual fans out there to come over to your way of thinking.
the reason the ostler comparison is so great is because his a's story is literally him going to a raiders game and asking a bunch of drunk fans what they think of the trades. it's almost like it's a parody of what we're criticizing here.
and isn't he essentially an opinion columnist? shouldn't "the view on the street" story be written by a regular journalist?
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 8:31 AM PST
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Ken Rosenthal
by WayOutInLF14 on
Dec 21, 2004 6:46 AM PST
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Good enough
by ohad on
Dec 21, 2004 7:02 AM PST
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AMEN
But now, I am happy with it. I really look forward to watching Harden get a lot better, as well as all the new talent we got.
Good lord guys, we did get an AllStar catcher this offseason (Kendall)!
by Ryan Hadden on
Dec 21, 2004 7:26 AM PST
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no recourse
They all follow the same blueprint for their articles: Controversy.
They believe taking a risk will result in failure, doing anything but the status quo is wrong.
And they repeat what they hear, very few of them have original ideas.
Nothing is going to change, stop reading them!
by mwball on
Dec 21, 2004 7:41 AM PST
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It's what sells papers....
We cannot forget however, that the media market in the Bay Area is biased towards the Giants and the National League. Particularly when I see comments like "The A's don't respect tradition", and "you don't trade Hall-Of-famers". That's the Joe Morgan/I hate the DH/Smallball point of view.
When Barry Bonds retires, things will be different. But the Giants marketing philosophy has always been about the stars and not the team; and that goes back to Willie Mays. They have no choice, since they haven't won a World Series in 50 years.
by Rob on
Dec 21, 2004 7:50 AM PST
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After the season
by Parklife on
Dec 21, 2004 8:02 AM PST
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i hope all you guys...
by bigelephant on
Dec 21, 2004 8:15 AM PST
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i was just thinking
reaction from local sportswriters: "finally beane gets the a's the 'big outfield bat' the team has sorely needed!"
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 8:40 AM PST
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Actually they just kind of suck
"...we really regret having to trade Mark (which they absolutely do not regret at all) but those are the conditions that prevail (yeah, when you're squeezing those quarters so hard that George Washington wishes Cornwallis had shown a little more gumption)."
Whaaa?? It's like he just chooses words randomly, with no sense of context and 2nd grader's understanding of metaphor.
It makes me miss Glenn Dickey. He would actually state an opinion on a relevant issue and then support it with facts and astute observations. Genius!
by Mark H on
Dec 21, 2004 9:00 AM PST
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Thank you..
by Parklife on
Dec 21, 2004 9:24 AM PST
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More on Ratto
Of course, I grew up with Jim Murray (LA Times) who really WAS clever.
Did he actually say 60 wins? Don't even get me started...what a crock.
I am willing to see what happens. What I am hoping will happen is that these pitchers won't have to always carry the load themselves; does anyone remember how hard it was for the A's to score runs last year?
Sandita
Still not delighted with the trades, but certainly not ready to throw up my hands & say the A's are finished, no matter who says so!!
by Batgal on
Dec 21, 2004 4:27 PM PST
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These guys are clowns!
by mitche82865 on
Dec 21, 2004 9:29 AM PST
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Go Blogs!
Did you guys know that there are 40,000 govn't employees in China surveying 600,000 blogs? That is 1 govn't employee for every 15 blogs! Pretty soon, the Chinese govn't won't be able to support enough people to control blogs. That is freedom of speech spreading to China! Can you imagine that, and it is because of blogs!
I love AN. My co-worker told me about this website a couple month ago, and ever since, I check it every day. I load up this page before espn.
Reading OUR perspective before I get some jackass sportwriter's perspective allows me to not get brainwashed. Ok, maybe not brainwashed, but convinced to be say, a Giants fan.
I love AN. I love the arguments, the evaluations, the interviews, and most of all, the hatred for the Yankees! Ok, I like the A's more, but my hatred for the Yankees is a close second.
by Cy Hudson on
Dec 21, 2004 9:30 AM PST
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The guys who whore for MLB as a concept,
But I think the criticms of the local press -- something I'm normally more than happy to indulge in -- is wrong here. The local guys have the emotional tone right: with these deals, the A's have declared that they won't keep any good, established players.
Ever.
Under current ownership policy, we will never have the right combination of star veterans and promising kids that it takes to win the World Series.
That's what fans and the local writers are reacting to, and I think it's a more accurate and useful response.
by jrbh on
Dec 21, 2004 9:31 AM PST
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Wow..
Personally, I think the A's were better. We were just unlucky.
I'm sorry you are, and have been, so down on the team.
by Parklife on
Dec 21, 2004 9:45 AM PST
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winning the world series
so you disagree with beane's assessment of the baseball postseason being a crapshoot?
the world series winner seems to be the hot team a lot of the time (marlins), at least the current policy has meant lots of playoff berths and lots of opportunities to win. you can't blame schott for freak plays in game fives of the alds.
tejada and hudson were "star veterans" right?
chavez and tejada didn't produce offensively against the red sox, byrnes and tejada couldn't manage to touch home plate, hernandez and chavez couldn't manage to tag a runner out in a rundown, hudson was involved in a bar brawl the night before the biggest start of his career. must be schott's fault.
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 9:47 AM PST
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Not EVER?
Ever.
Doesn't Chavez count?
I'd also point to Dye's contract -- he ended up being injured, but the intent was clearly to spend a lot of money to keep a "good, established player."
by Nick on
Dec 21, 2004 11:45 AM PST
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athletes
they signed Chavez and Dye to big money contracts -- one may work out, the other definitely didn't because the guy got injured too often.
I suspect one of the two of them, Mulder or Hudson, will have a great career and the other will be forever injury prone.
Barry Bonds is very unusual. Basically, human athletes (like thoroughbred horses) are risking injury all the time. You have about a 50-50 chance with any big-money player, decreasing as his age rises (look at Kevin Brown). So unless you're the Yankees and can afford anyone you want, having more good prospects may be a lower-risk strategy than signing a few superstars.
by vk on
Dec 21, 2004 4:23 PM PST
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YOU GOT THE BELL CURVE WRONG
Vis This, dost thus have thou for thus. Do you have a Mug of Ale for me and me mate Shipp-Bixby.
What did you get Bear88 for Christmas, pillows?
You have a wealth of knowledge on minor league prospects, so much so that you and Sickles should collaborate on a Prospectus with Varros, and devote a section to VORP. IMHO, FWIW where was I going with this? I don't know, because I'm too confused by JRBH psycho babble.
MERRY CHRISTMAS AN
MERRY CHRISTMAS JOE MORGAN
MERRY CHRISTMAS ROD SMART and EARTHWIND MORELAND
by Misfit on
Dec 21, 2004 1:55 PM PST
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Never is a strong word! Especially considering...
The local media's response to the trade, whether they realize it or not was visceral in nature. Their analyses of the players involved was inadequate to say the least. They,like the rest of us who prclaim our loyalty to a particular team can't help but become emtionally attached to the people/players they interview (as long as they are willing to 'work with' the press).
So as we have had to sort through the loss of players that we've grown attached to, so have they. Their catharsis is their keyboard, now it's ours too! Therefore, what they say gets scrutinized and analyzed like all of us.
Getting back to your comment, history doesn't fortunately back you up. The A's of the early 70's were 'great' we all agree, but we have to remember that they didn't have the same playoff structure that exists today. Not that they would have won it but that they could have been knocked out given the increased number of games now played.
If we look back at Anaheim, Arizona and Florida over the past several years, we have excellent examples of teams that the A's matched well against. The season series against Anaheim was won by Oakland that year. We also swept AZ when we played them on their turf (Mulder pitched a beauty!). Florida kicked our butts but hey, cant win 'em all.
Ultimately, there is no way to quantify a winning formula for getting to the WS much better than what BB has done in Oakland. At best, all any team can hope for is an opportunity. Just look at the Yankees, they're ready to break down Fort Knox once again to try to win it. All of their spending has guaranteed them nothing, absolutely nothing.
I suppose its easy to get jaded as an A's fan and to become cynical as we watch this process that reveals the inequality of baseball's haves and have-nots. But I refuse to think, especialy after the 'curse' being broken that we will NEVER get back to the WS and win it all.
by Gerard on
Dec 21, 2004 3:01 PM PST
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lol
Do you guys remember against the Twins when the A's almost batted out of order to lose game 5?
If Beane wants a WS champion, he needs to buy a bottle of "Jerry Garcia" (Half Baked). Then we would have the right combination of luck and skill.
by Cy Hudson on
Dec 21, 2004 10:01 AM PST
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Its your chance...
LIVE: Today at Noon Craig Lancaster is running the sports department at the Mercury News, He's been at it for a couple of months now and he would like to hear from you. Send in your questions and suggestions now.
If you goto the Mercury News website.. you can ask the sports editor questions... Like.. why all the negative A's talk?
by Parklife on
Dec 21, 2004 10:13 AM PST
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Ratto
Instead of finding something positive in the A's reaching the playoffs in four of the past five years, the OAFC whiners only follow the Athletics and post such bile because they live to hate...
Re: Ratto. He has contempt for the A's ownership and feels he must express it in print every fortnight. He also must envy Billy Beane as he has only negative things to say about baseball's best GM. Ratto never could explain how both astute ownership and a superlative GM has made a small revenue team true winners (rather than "buyers" as are the Yanks and BoSox).
Oh yeah, the reason Ratto doesn't wear a sports coat is that they don't come in sizes that wide.
Glenn Dickey is certainly missed. He is an infinitely more gifted writer than Ratto and quite astute when it comes to analysis, praising teams when they merit it and criticizing them when they don't. He doesn't see the world in Ratto's black and white. And when he was critical, he could support his contentions. For example, he quite early noted Art Howe's incompetence as a strategist as well as the ramifications of Howe's inability to instill clubhouse discipline. Howe's manifest failure with the $100 million payroll of the Mets speaks volumes.
The Chron's sports section would be infinitely more readable if it would bring back both Dickey and Tom Fitzgeralds' columns and fire Ratto's fat ass. I wonder if Ratto can appreciate the fact that the Chron dumped Dickey and Fitz and kept Ratto for "economic reasons." Guess the Rat can't see the irony in this, given his condemnation of Beane and Scott for being alleged "penny-pinchers."
by reztips on
Dec 21, 2004 10:14 AM PST
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JRBH quit your bellyaching!
by mitche82865 on
Dec 21, 2004 10:26 AM PST
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I see both sides
But jrbh has a point too. Beane didn't make these trades because he wanted to. He made the trades because he had to. Hopefully, Beane got as much in return as possible.
But this was a decision driven by money that the owners are unwilling to spend because they want to keep turning a profit every year. (We'll see how that works out, as attendance may fall precipitously if the A's are out of contention for most of next year.) The local reaction is going to be negative, both because we just lost two of the best pitchers in baseball and because of what it says about the A's. The negative reaction by local columnists reflects that. That seems fair.
If Hudson and/or Mulder do not perform well for whatever reason and the young players we got in return blossom, you can be sure that everyone will hail Beane as a genius. Schott will even get a little credit, as this will become part of a pattern of refusing to overpay for talent on the downswing.
But it's a little early to be saying any of that. Hudson and Mulder could go 1-2 for the NL Cy Young award, and none of the prospects we got could pan out.
Nobody knows - yet.
by bear88 on
Dec 21, 2004 10:54 AM PST
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Most Journalists are Lazy Hacks
What is interesting is most of these hacks are lifers going no where. They are reporters - not players, not owners, not newsmakers - just reporters. Most of whom started by writting obits for a local rag. This is why they have such positive outlooks....real men of vision.
They haven't noticed that baseball has changed- the World Champ Red Sox has lost half their starting rotation. The Yankees have tossed out most of their high priced pitching to get new higher priced, older guys. The NY media is pissing all over a guy who two years ago was named Giambino for his Ruthian resemblance. How many players from the 2003 WS champ Angels are still there? Not so many.
After three years of decline Billy Beane is gambling and going a different direction. Billy talks about it, shares his direction, goes on Ralph and Tom and answers questions. To compare him with that jerk York who hides in Ohio is journalistic incompetence.
Why Ratto feels he is qualified to trash Steve Schott as a capitalist pig is beyond me. He is a rich and successful business man. He gives alot to charity - including a baseball stadium to Santa Clara U. among others. It might be nice if he subsidized the A's like the Haas family but even they had to stop.
What has Ratto done for Society besides spread depression? What a guy.
by Aparicio11 on
Dec 21, 2004 10:54 AM PST
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this is lame ...
Nor does using sabermetrics make any of us more intelligent than a writer who fails to use sabermetrics. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be necessary to support your argument. The best arguments in support of the Hudson/Mulder trades I've read in the last few days have not relied on VORP or win/shares. You don't need that. If you're talking to someone else who speaks that language, great, but if you're talking to an audience that includes casual fans, you'd better limit yourselves to tools that people can understand. You can mock their lack of understanding of sabermetrics, but then you're just a small island of snobs, unappreciated by the non-sabermetric-knowing publiic. And then I like how people go on and on about how we've corned the market on "intellectual rigor" here at AN, and then support their arguments by pointing out that Ray Ratto is a fatass.
by rubin sierra on
Dec 21, 2004 11:05 AM PST
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Well
by Sharon on
Dec 21, 2004 12:16 PM PST
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Sabermetrics
However if I can break it down numbers wise I start to see how the trade is justified. The fact that the dropoff from Hudson/Mulder to their replacement is not that great. That signing Kendall, Ginter and having a bullpen will likely offset that.
Using Win Shares, Vorp, ERA+ whatever you want to use. But people should have at least the basic knowledge. At least know what OPS is.
by Piratepete7 on
Dec 21, 2004 2:27 PM PST
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take it easy dar pirateboypete...
i know vorp,win shares,ops. i have read james, neyer, and moneyball. its that condescending intellectual highbrow shit you just wrote that really makes me shake my head.
sabermatrics is a theory. pure and simply. if a theorist is smart (some are-some aren't) flexibility and open mindedness is part of the equation. some a's "fans" are actual fans of sabermetrics, others are "fans" of the baseball team and others are actually "fans" of the people that wear the jerseys. i happen to believe there is room under the "a's tent" for all.
if you are truly "into" sabermetrics you'ii know there are sabermetric websites. with that above attitude why don't you surf over there and be as fuckin' "objective" as you want. if you want to do some "saber" stuff and post it, fine i'ii probably read it. please, lose the attitude.
baseball is a game played by human beings. sabermetrics is a theory which attempts to explain various dynamics within a game. point is, some believe in "the theory"- some don't. its OK.
by bigelephant on
Dec 21, 2004 4:51 PM PST
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A Theory?
How about economic theory? That must try to explain as well.
Those are perfectly acceptable theories that when applied in their respective fields are quite explanatory and predictive.
I realise that there are different types of fans.
But there is no need to whine that the A's will be hard pressed to win 65 games next year.
by Piratepete7 on
Dec 21, 2004 5:18 PM PST
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Sure there is ...
And yes, the Theory of Evolution, and economic theory are theoretical. They are almost certainly more or less true ... but remain unprovable and, thus, theories.
I'm a huge stat head, but SABRmetrics is far from perfectly predictive.
by devo on
Dec 21, 2004 5:21 PM PST
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Sabermetrics
But they put the deals back into proportion. Breaking it down more allows people to see who we got not just who we gave up.
I immensely saddened by Huddy and Mulder's departures. It makes me hate the Yankees even more, if that's possible.
We didn't give them up for nothing, that's what matters now.
Just a thought, how cool would it be if Hudson comes back to the A's after the 2005 season and signs a reasonable deal?
by Piratepete7 on
Dec 21, 2004 6:24 PM PST
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ya beat me to it devo, thanks
by bigelephant on
Dec 21, 2004 6:25 PM PST
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Not funny
Obviously KNBR has a wierd perception of the definition of "stealing". Yo! SF Giant sycophants--did Barry Bonds steal his HR record? How about his MVP awards? Does SBC stand for "So Bonds Cheated"?
I can't wait for Beane to finish his plan--and for the A's to (once again) outperform the Midgets.
by Napasteve on
Dec 21, 2004 11:10 AM PST
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AN addict
And yet, I'm caught up in the issue, for whatever reason. So we have Schott, and we have BB. And Schott sets the amount he's willing to spend, and BB allocates it. And BB has made a name for himself by working with strict limitations, so he can spend HALF what the Red Sox spend and a THIRD of what the Yanks spend.
He's made so much of a name for himself doing that, that you almost start to think that he prefers it that way, that he LIKES being held around $60 mill., that he particularly likes telling people about the risks he's taking with these trades, turning the status quo on its head, et cetera.
That's the argument the "lazy hacks" are making--not that BB's not good at using a dollar, but that he's all-too-willing to agree to a low payroll ceiling, and Schott's all-too-willing to give him one, in hopes that BB will be that much more of a genius if the A's win, and Schott will make a handsome profit in the meantime.
And the criticism is way off-base if the A's profits are just enough to pay everybody what they need, but his criticism is right on target if Schott's taking home eight figures by himself--if he can afford it, he needs to spend some moneyh on this team, for even you Moneyballers wouldn't argue that it helps to have a higher payroll. Would you?
by rubin sierra on
Dec 21, 2004 11:38 AM PST
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Question
Also, is it such a crime to be so extremely loyal to the GM? I mean, nobody here as actually thrown himself off a cliff.
by Sharon on
Dec 21, 2004 12:24 PM PST
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I'm a jumper!
by Force on
Dec 21, 2004 1:07 PM PST
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God bless you ...
But to answer your question, Sharon (and to do so constructively and intelligently, as is urged later on in this thread)--the problem with blind loyalty is that it disallows criticism. To me, it seems like this thread started out as a celebration of this type of blind loyalty, with the ceremonious lynchings of Ratto, Ostler and all those others who would dare be critical of our BB under any circumstances.
Such a fanatical "all criticize the A's must die" sort of attitude would fit in great in the A's PR department, and actually that's a good conspiracy theory--this blog has been permeated and saturated by A's PR agents. If so, spies, you're doing a great job.
But for those of you who are attempting to do your own critical thinking, then I don't see why you'd take any criticism directed at the A's personally. Journalists are absolutely NOT supposed to regurgitate the team's press releases. They're supposed to be critical, because WE THE FANS deserve the best product the owners can put out there.
by rubin sierra on
Dec 21, 2004 8:28 PM PST
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I understand...
But I wish writers were also more objective in their judgement of Billy Beane and the A's. I think a lot of the reaction against Ratto, Ostler, and just about everyone is that we've had to endure constant criticism of our favorite team while it's winning games on the field. My trust in "journalists" is severely lacking. I never expect objectivity b/c I know I'm not going to get it most of the time.
I guess you can call it the Joe Morgan Syndrome. It's "baseball men" like him that have(at times) made it difficult to enjoy the A's.
by Sharon on
Dec 21, 2004 10:16 PM PST
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Yes...
I really dislike Ratto, I think he is very much full of himself, you can feel that from his writing. But I read everything objectively, and sometimes he writes something good. Like when the Angels clinched the AL West this year he wrote an article about the A's and I though it ws very insightful. Like as I've said before, he's Jim Rome minus humor and tact with at least twice the asshole factor.
I like Romey, he's a funny asshole, he's like that one friend that makes fun of you and all of your other friends and he's so dead on. I feel that Ratto wants to be edgy like Rome, but fails at it.
I'm tired of all of the "prophets of the apocalypse." They've bashed the team when they're good, they've bashed the team especially now, when they seem bad, it sometimes seem that the Bay Area media is more deferential to the Giants, at least the steroid thing won't go away.
Look, I know the A's aren't making it to the playoffs next year, I knew it the moment Mulder was traded. I also know that they won't suck and I'll still have fun going to baseball games and showing up at 10 AM to get my bobbleheads. Speaking of wich, all my A's bobbleheads ae ex-players, with the exception of Zito.
by secret ASian man on
Dec 21, 2004 11:25 PM PST
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Nothing wrong with criticism, or even...
When it gets ridiculous is when people don't pay attention to the words they are using.
- Saying the A's keep NONE of their talented stars is a slap in the face to Eric Chavez. As another poster noted, signed Dye to a big contract in the prime of his career also showed a big committment that, unfortunately didn't pan out.
- Saying that the A's had NO SHOT of winning a WS title the past 5 years. The failures are embarassing, yes. But you do not take an ALDS to 5 games for four straight years if you have NO shot.
Three cheers for CONSTRUCTIVE, INTELLIGENT DISAGREEMENT!! :-) :-)
by nodaclu on
Dec 21, 2004 1:20 PM PST
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$60 mil
yes, i think he does like it, he sees it as a challenge. what's wrong with that?
if that scares you, i recommend following the yankees, red sox, or angels instead of beane and the a's. their gm's don't have the money issues the a's have.
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 21, 2004 4:31 PM PST
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Gewn Knapp
by frisco03 on
Dec 21, 2004 12:15 PM PST
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You know what?
I think it will mean a little bit more when we do. ;)
by baseballgirl on
Dec 21, 2004 12:34 PM PST
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It's going to be fun...
by Sharon on
Dec 21, 2004 12:38 PM PST
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Agreed
We have a collection of young players that will be fun to watch for years. We groom and develop players, rather than signing Vlad,Bart, and Steve.
Merry Christmas Joe Morgan and Rod Smart
by Misfit on
Dec 21, 2004 2:14 PM PST
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like they "ran away" with it in 2004?
They have not improved this offseason. they may end up winning the division, but the other teams will definitely give them a run for their money.
by OaklandSi on
Dec 21, 2004 3:22 PM PST
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JD Drew
by Sharon on
Dec 21, 2004 12:45 PM PST
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I was thinking the same thing
by OaklandSi on
Dec 21, 2004 12:52 PM PST
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a little like Sabean's Matt Williams trade
Beane has never done something that seemed this radical, trading Mulder and Hudson is not the same as losing players to free agency... the benefit of the doubt is removed from the home team. Whereas in free agency negotiations, we never are sure enough what the terms really are, AND the player who leaves always can be painted as greedy for 'putting money first', in trades it does fall all on the GM.
When Grieve was traded, Damon came in return. When Ramon was traded, Kotsay came in return. When Koch was traded, Foulke came in return. This time we received a package of players for All-Stars, of course it seems startling compared to what Beane has done in the past, so the narrative becomes that the A's are blowing up the team, or are too cheap to compete.
None of this takes into account where the A's are in their success cycle, that the market seems to be drastically over-valuing starting pitching this off season... not to mention that the expected win difference between a #3 starter and a #2 is not that much, upgrading a position player from below average to above average is worth more than doing the same for a starter. It's not surprising that this is subtle stuff.
But for me the real question that sportswriters SHOULD be able to focus on is whether it is worth it to go for broke one more season, knowing that the downside is probably an expensive and not good team for a couple years OR whether you pull the plug when you can and keep having a veteran/youth mix that has much less chance of cratering for three or four seasons.
When I read the Kevin Goldstein chat at BA about the A's prospects, what struck me was that after Blanton, the A's didn't have anyone that they could reliably project to be a decent major league starter: they have some possibilities, but no one that has crossed the threshold to being able to penciled in to the major league team. The A's were looking at a post big three of Harden, Blanton, and three question marks without projectable answers...
The money situation makes acquiring guys via free agency difficult or impossible, but these trades happened not so much because of that as because it became clear that if Hudson and Mulder left via free agency, receiving draft picks for them would not have provided the next wave of pitching help in time. Billy has been walking the razor's edge for five years now, adding and subtracting pieces to win now. He is now easing off from doing that, trading 5-7 wins this year for 5-7 wins the next three or four years. That is the story here, but it's the lack of SABR principles among sportswriters that believe that subtracting Mulder and Hudson means subtracting their win totals from the team. They think Billy traded away 15-30 TEAM wins, this is where some "elitist" stat-geek type people really do know better.
by jakarta on
Dec 21, 2004 1:20 PM PST
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The irony of it all
Now on the business.
I thought rooting for the underdog is embeded deep into the American Psyche, they why we have movies like the Bad News Bears, Miracle, Cool Runnings and even the horrible, horrible Mighty Ducks franchise.
We Americans always love an underdog story, and that is your Oakland Athletics. We play with the the overspending Evil Empries, we spend a third of the Yankees and put out a similar product, albeit with less flair.
How come the media just blasts Beane and the A's for doing exactly what they should be doing, Underdog stuff.
I wonder how they're going to eat crow when the A's do their 2nd half run and make a damn good shot at the playoffs.
My predictions:
A's will miss playoffs in '05 (but not by much)
World Series Champs '06 (just let me dream)
by secret ASian man on
Dec 21, 2004 4:51 PM PST
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I wouldn't give anybody the division just yet
by OaklandSi on
Dec 22, 2004 6:45 AM PST
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Some Observations
When I say they A's will keep "none" of their established stars, I don't mean that literally. They have indeed, as someone pointed out, kept Chavy.
On the other hand, they've let go Mulder, Hudson, Tejada, Giambi, Damon, Isringhausen and Foulke. We kept Dye strictly because his contract made him untradeable. Anyone want to bet on whether Kendall completes his third year in Oakland?
Vis. Zito, I bet all of us can agree that he won't be back after the next year or two: if he goes out and pitches like a Cy Young pitcher again, we'll pronounce him too expensive. If he has another crappy year, we'll say we can't afford mediocrity at his prices.
The clock's ticking on Harden, too: if he's the stud everyone (including me) thinks he's going to be, he's got two or three years left here, tops. Just as he's becoming a superstar veteran, he'll be gone as well.
The system, as the A's have defined it, makes it impossible to put together the whole deal all at once here in Oakland. The success of the last few years was dependent on an explosion of talent in one organization rarely seen in baseball history; it's not going to happen again here, and without it, we can't compete.
When I say the A's will "never" win the World Series, I don't mean that it's a metaphysical certainty that we'll never see another championship banner in Oakland. I mean that we'll become a version of the White Sox, some good years, mostly bad, and, hey, lightning will strike every once in a while.
by jrbh on
Dec 22, 2004 9:30 AM PST
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Absolutes
How do you know who will be here and who won't? Have you and Billy Beane been discussing the direction of the team? When Mulder was falling apart last season you were begging to replace him with Blanton. Now he's gone and you think it's the end of the world for the team.
Stop saying things like "impossible" and "I bet all of us can agree." I'm amazed by your claims to be such a knowledgeable and dedicated fan while you moan about how awful players, coaches, fans, ticket prices, and management are. Always speak for yourself because there are enough people around who completely disagree with your histrionic comments. Are you a fan of the A's or a fan of complaining about the A's?
by Reg on
Dec 22, 2004 10:05 AM PST
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lightning
the a's have played one meaningless game in the last half decade and you're ready to call them the new white sox?
other than that, yes, you're right, some players will be too good to keep, others will not be good enough or will too risky to sign. beane has to choose carefully. it looks like he made the right choice in keeping chavez over tejada or giambi considering crosby turned out ok. let's hope he keeps making good decisions.
by xbhaskarx on
Dec 22, 2004 10:13 AM PST
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Picking a random year - 1986
In 1996, 13 pitchers received more than 1 vote in the Cy Young balloting.
Pat Hentgen
Andy Pettitte
Mariano Rivera
Charles Nagy
Mike Mussina
John Smoltz
Kevin Brown
Andy Benes
Hideo Nomo
Trevor Hoffman
Greg Maddux
Todd Worrell
Denny Neagle
First I'll give the closers the ax. Now, for how many of these guys would a 4 year, top dollar contract have been a good idea?
Great (no season below 125 era+, average of 140+)
Brown
Maddux
Good (3 or more seasons of 130+ era+ or average of 125+)
Mussina
Smoltz
Okay (3 of 120+ or average 115+)
Pettitte
Neagle
Poor (Average between 100 and 115)
Hentgen
Benes
Bad (Average below 100 or make fewer than 70 starts/140 G (for reliever))
Nagy
Nomo
Only Kevin Brown was old enough that a typical GM might have been worried about his future.
by devo on
Dec 22, 2004 10:36 AM PST
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Some things to cheer you up
The A's control Harden's rights for at lest the next four years. I figure Beane lets him pitch the 2005 season for $325K or whatever and then signs him to a four year deal starting in 2006. 2010 is a long time coming so there is no sense worrying about that.
You're right about the A's hitting a lucky streak with the talent they've developed in the last 7 years, starting with Tejada in 1997. To expect one system to continue such a pipeline is unrealistic, but Beane has found a way to tap into two other farm systems (St. Louis and Atlanta) in an effort to keep feeding the big league team. Oakland's farm system has to keep producing, but by trading Hudson and Mulder he has created a bumper crop that could be just as good as the 1997 group. Admittitedly none of them could pan out but we have to see them on the field before we can make that judgement.
by grover on
Dec 22, 2004 11:08 AM PST
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Viz.
Which, of course, doesn't mitigate your deeper point, that the A's didn't allocate enough money to beat Boston's offer.
As for the others on your list, I (and a few others) feel that the A's were, are, and will be better off not having most, if not all, of them tied up long-term.
And if Beane moves Kendall before his final contract year (which, I agree, it's highly likely he'll do), by that point it's a safe bet that at least one of our flotilla of catching prospects will be ready for prime time.
by monkeyball on
Dec 23, 2004 7:46 AM PST
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Four More Years
Why wouldn't Beane, facing the same situation he did with Hudson and Mulder, do the exact thing with Harden and dump him after the 2006 season?
by jrbh on
Dec 22, 2004 11:17 AM PST
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Studly this year you mean?
by grover on
Dec 22, 2004 11:22 AM PST
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It's not the same situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if BB signs him to an extension during the season.
by Sharon on
Dec 22, 2004 11:41 AM PST
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I'm just saying that Foulke is one of...
He exactly fits the model I'm talking about.
by jrbh on
Dec 23, 2004 11:53 AM PST
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Hold on
The A's offered $6 million.
Boston ultimately offered him $8 million.
Even if Oakland had offered him more than $8 milion do you believe the Boston wouldn't have gone higher? The A's will never win a bidding war in the free agent market.
by grover on
Dec 23, 2004 1:14 PM PST
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