Lost Among the Trades

by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 19, 2004 3:14 PM PST in News

Is the fact that the A's have completely upgraded their most significant weakness...the bullpen.

Suddenly, the A's have Juan Cruz and Kiko Colero, two of the top set-up men in the majors last season. These two replace Mecir as eighth inning men.

It was at significant cost in losing two rocks of the rotation, but both Meyer and Haren are on the cusp of being something special.

Remember, Anaheim won the World Series in 2002 without known quantities at starting pitcher.

The A's offense is also truly built in a high-OBP fashion now as well with Kendall, Thomas, Swisher and company in the fold.

So, while the trades have most of us depressed because of the thought of never seeing Mulder and Hudson in green and gold, all hope is not lost.

Barry Zito said it best:

"Am I surprised by all of this? Yeah, a little," he said. "But did I think we'd all be in Oakland together forever? No. That's unrealistic. The bottom line is that Billy has a job to do, and I've been around long enough and seen enough of what he's done to always have complete faith in whatever his master plan might be.

"Even when you don't understand something while it's happening, you just have to trust him on it. His track record speaks for itself."

In Billy He Trusts. In Billy We Should Trust.

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Comments

amen

We will have a top 3 bullpen if we keep dotel, and a top 5 if we don't.
Also, our offense is going to be awesome next year.

by UCD Stomper @ Athletics Nation on Dec 19, 2004 3:25 PM PST reply actions

don't keep dotel

no need for him. between duke, colero, cruz, street, and maybe some other young guys like garcia, there's no need for dotel.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 3:32 PM PST reply actions

We're gonna trade Dotel

He ain't worth it

by Bambi on Dec 19, 2004 8:58 PM PST up reply actions

Gotta tell ya Blez

The "In Billy We Trust" mantra is being pushed awfully thin. Beane can't hedge his bets here, if he's going to re-load this team for the rest of the decade he's got to move a couple more players. If the goal is long term flexability and competitiveness than he should not sign Dotel and Durazo to multi-year deals.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 3:32 PM PST reply actions

i agree

that beane shouldn't sign dotel or durazo. get rid of all the old guys.
i'm still not sure why kotsay is still on the team after the great year he had last year. his stock is never going to be higher. he may be good the next few years, but chances are he won't be as good as he was last year. i say trade him to a team looking to contend next year for some more young starting pitchers.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 3:35 PM PST up reply actions

upcoming deals

Will be made, but only if the deal is right. Deals for Dotel, Kotsay, and Kendall are better off being made in July when/if the A's are out of contention. Right now, those 3 guys don't have a ton of value.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 19, 2004 9:38 PM PST up reply actions

Cruz to be traded?

Gammons indicates Cruz may be moving on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1949178

Even without him though (assuming Dotel is back)
our Pen is amazing:
Street and Calero will replace Mecir and Rhodes.

I would also guess that one of the Three: Haren, Meyer, Blanton. Start in the pen when we add a veteran inning eater.

by novaoakland on Dec 19, 2004 3:33 PM PST reply actions

Cruz trade

Beane might see Cruz as insurance in case one of his new arms isn't ready for the big league rotation. If that's the case he'll hold on to him.

Now if the interested team wants to keep Cruz as a reliever than I'd suggest offering them Dotel.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 3:38 PM PST up reply actions

Enough

Street has never pitched to a major league hitter. He might be good, he might stink. We will see. He is definitely not "amazing" yet.

by RichardP on Dec 19, 2004 4:04 PM PST up reply actions

i cant wait to see

what wash can do with ginter, and barton (in a few years).

05 will be exciting playoffs or not.

by redclay22 on Dec 19, 2004 3:36 PM PST reply actions

Awful Idea

Grover, xbhaskarz, in case you haven't noticed we're still a pretty decent team. There's no reason to sell off absolutely everything at this point.

Dotel and Durazo will be back because they're extremely good values relative to their production. Our bullpen, with Dotel as the closer, looks awfully nasty. Our starting pitching will be serviceable (as long as no one busts) and potentially very good if two of the three have solid rookie seasons. Our offense is a lock to be markedly improved.

As it stands right now, this team is looking at 83-87 wins based on Pythagorean; with one more big move (Huff?), we could be right there.

Just as Billy Beane never "goes for it all", he never gives up on a year either. His stated goal is to compete for division championships every year. That is what we have always done, and that is what we'll do in 2005.

by NP15 on Dec 19, 2004 3:46 PM PST reply actions

I never said re-build

I think the A's are going to be around .500 next year, the young arms are going to have their ups and downs. I don't see a reason to have a closer making $4.5 million next season on a team that I don't believe will be capable of making the play-offs. The A's can expect to make a realistic run in 2006, but not before. Beane has traded Mulder and Hudson because he does not expect this team to make a run in 2005. Therefore he should trade Dotel and install Calero as the closer, with the idea being that Street is being groomed for the role.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 3:56 PM PST up reply actions

hmmm

Is Dotel really going to be worth $4.5 million next year?

by Sharon on Dec 19, 2004 4:06 PM PST up reply actions

no, dotel is NOT worth that much next year.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 4:08 PM PST up reply actions

ok

That's what I thought. Especially if Billy is looking to sign him to a multi-year contract...

by Sharon on Dec 19, 2004 4:11 PM PST up reply actions

Dotel and $$$

Dotel made $2.8 million last year. He racked up 36 saves in 45 chances with 122 Ks in 85 innings. He's going to get a bump via arbitration and it's going to be more than $1.2 million. $4.5 million is a reasonable number to round up to, but if you prefer we can call it a $4 million salary. My opinion still holds firm at the lower rate. Signing him to a multi-year deal, even if you backload it, seems like a waste of money.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 4:25 PM PST up reply actions

But is Dotel worth more in a trade..

Is Dotel worth more in a deal if he has signed at multi year deal? I like the idea of keeping all the relievers until July and then seeing what is up. It is good for the young starters to see that the bullpen is solid. This year start that goes 5 with a lead may be a win if the pen turns into what it could be. And is Dotel worth more traded in Dec or July?

by dougald1 on Dec 19, 2004 5:34 PM PST up reply actions

Solid

I see the bullpen as being solid even without Dotel. Cruz in the 7th, Street and Calero pitching in the 8th and 9th. Which does which to be determined of course.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 5:38 PM PST up reply actions

a couple things

when is this arbitration thing going to take place?
If BB is trying to field a competitive team like he says this yr and not just dumping salary to rebuild, then I believe he will at least keep Dotel until the trade deadline or until one of the other relievers show they can step in and close games.

Dotel esp stays if we're in the race. If we struggle early, he's trade bait.

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the future." -JFK.

by sf drift king on Dec 19, 2004 8:45 PM PST up reply actions

Arby is TODAY!!! MONDAY!!!!

by everythinguknowiswrong on Dec 20, 2004 1:26 PM PST up reply actions

Finally, some common sense

It feels good to wake up this morning in China and see some sensible comments in AN such as above. I've been reading so much silliness the past few days. This team is a better team now, and of course some major questions, but we had major questions before the trades. Would Mulder respond to 2002 level or was what happened last year just an off year. I like the shaping up of the bullpen. Why is everyone so down on Dotel?
I think he was pitching with a sore arm last Sept. I like the fact we have some power pitchers in the bullpen, guys that can strike people out. And we still have Etherington who nobody talks about. I guess Sarloos is out for the year, is that true? Remember, this was the best team in the AL in defense last year, and if Thomas is as good as it is written and if Ellis comes back, it should be improved. And I don't think Billy is through yet.

by china bob on Dec 19, 2004 4:03 PM PST reply actions

following the A's is like following college sports

You wait for the new prospects and recruits to come, with hope and worry; you watch them blossom (or fail); you watch your stars excel and think, if only we had another year with our star senior; then you watch them leave. The main difference of course, is that college stars don't leave to play for a direct competitor or your hated enemy. But it's pretty similar.

Following the Yankees or BoSox is probably more like following the Senior Circuit of golf or tennis...

Good luck finding a more fulfilling sport to follow. I personally find the A's fight to beat an unfair system absolutely transfixing.

by Apricot on Dec 19, 2004 4:25 PM PST reply actions

yep

Michael Lewis said that, when rooting for the A's, you're also rooting for an idea. I have to agree with that. I was really bummed about losing Mudler and Hudson...still am. But this morning, I realized there's a whole batch of new, young, exciting players to root for on this team. Maybe once spring trianing rolls around, the fans will warm up to them.

by Sharon on Dec 19, 2004 4:32 PM PST up reply actions

I'm inclined to agree with you

now that the shock is starting to wear off.

by Pepper on Dec 19, 2004 5:00 PM PST up reply actions

Me too

One of the things I like about being an A's fan is watching Billy work. I love the constant roster turnover. It's fascinating how he manages to field a competitive team every year while doing it. I wish Mulder and Hudson well with their new teams, but on the end, I guess I root for laundry.

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 19, 2004 8:29 PM PST up reply actions

Me too...

Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 19, 2004 9:31 PM PST up reply actions

I usually root for laundry too

but Hudson goes beyond that level.

by vk on Dec 20, 2004 1:45 PM PST up reply actions

Rooting for laundry

is the name of the game in Oaktown when it comes to baseball. I said it before and I'll say it again. If there's a piece of laundry I'd buy with someone's name on it, it would say "Billy Beane."

And the way we Oakland fans are, I wouldn't be surprised if someone shows up on opening day with a sign in the bleachers that says "Juan Cruz Fan Club" or something like that.

by BillybUcko on Dec 20, 2004 5:26 PM PST up reply actions

101 wins with a noname pitching staff

Here here China Bob, Jay, Apricot. Sorry Grover the Billy moves are what makes being an A's fan great. That's why after Giambi any jersey or shirt I buy has no name but mine on the back. That's because I will always be an A's fan, no matter what. It is absolutely transfixing, and will be even more so when nobody picks us worth a damn this year and we win the whole enchilada! Watch and see!

by A'sfansince1970 on Dec 19, 2004 4:30 PM PST reply actions

Being an A's fan

I agree that part of the reason I love rooting for the A's is Beane's ability to pull off the unexpected. All I'm saying is that by trading Mulder and Hudson he has merely travelled halfway down the path he has chosen. It's too late to go back and if he stops here he won't get to where he wants this team to go.

by grover on Dec 19, 2004 5:42 PM PST up reply actions

OT

someone posted a link to a cards guy who was opposed to the mulder deal:

http://mb3.scout.com/fstlouiscardinalsfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=5241.topic&start=50&stop =50

he had some interesting things to say. what's also interesting is what he was saying about trying to get hudson. more kind words for haren and barton:

http://mb3.scout.com/fstlouiscardinalsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=5152.topic&index=3

what does that mean? maybe not much, besides making me a little less nervious about all of this...

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 5:17 PM PST reply actions

If Barton lives up to the hype...

we'll be talking about this trade for years. I was living in Chicago when the Cubs traded a prospect for Rick Sutcliffe, and Sutcliffe wound up playing really, really well. What a deal! Then, I found out a couple of years later that the prospect was Joe Carter. Sure, that's just one example, and there are probably plenty of cases where it didn't work out. What if he IS the next Pujols?

Then again, if he doesn't pan out, we may also be talking about this for years...

by Rangla on Dec 19, 2004 6:12 PM PST up reply actions

Very interesting comments.....

Did you notice the scout mentioning that he would have loved to get both Mulder and Hudson 12 months ago? In other words, BB got 12-months-ago value even tho that value has declined...
especially Mulder. The scout also notes that the Cards (or perhaps another team) will have to pay thru the nose for Mulder's next contract..in other words, paying for his 2001-2003 performance.
Obviously we still don't know if the Haren and the other young pitchers will pan out...but this does follow the Moneyball philosophy. Upon further review, maybe this isn't the '98 Marlins...lol...

I *spit* on the Rally Monkey!

by bakedzito on Dec 19, 2004 8:56 PM PST up reply actions

Quote from Cardinals fan on Mulder trade

In the link above, it says the following from a Cardinals fan's perspective on the trade for Mulder: "In 5 years it will likely be viewed as one of the worst trades in the history of baseball." He focuses particularly on the future value of Haren and Barton (rated by at least one analyst as the top prospect in baseball.)

by SA on Dec 20, 2004 5:19 PM PST up reply actions

In Billy I...

am morbidly fascinated? obsessed?

This afternoon I kept thinking of the descriptions in Moneyball of Billy smashing his bats after striking out. Part of me wonders - was there an element of rage here? Is he just sick of sending the same core of guys out and losing?

But maybe that's not it. Maybe he really does have a vision of how to be competitive next year and he's following it through. Remember how we went from Johnny Damon leading off and Jason Giambi at 1B, to having Jeremy Giambi leading off and Scott Hatteberg at 1B? It looked like it would be a disaster. And well... it was a disaster, until late May when Billy shook things up again and they turned out fine.

I'll watch this 2005 season. Not with a ton of optimism, but like watching a daredevil try his latest craziest stunt and wondering if this will be his greatest - or his last.

by matthias on Dec 19, 2004 5:30 PM PST reply actions

It's not all that bad

Billy Beane is doing what he does best - dealing from a position of strength to get the best possible players he can with one of the lowest budgets in baseball.

I am deeply pained and hurt by the loss of Mulder and Hudson. One of the greatest 1-2-3 baseball rotations of all time has been broken up.

But this is not a fire sale. This is not "re-building". We got some of the best prospects out there who will continue to contribute for years to come, while we would have only gotten draft picks for Hudson in 2006 and Mulder in 2007.

Click on the links above in xbhaskarx post, interesting commentary from a Cards fan.

by swizstick on Dec 19, 2004 6:07 PM PST reply actions

Dotel - keeping him around for a big trade

I almost forgot to add why we should keep Dotel : even at $4-5 million a year, he is worth it, provided he stays healthy.

I think Billy Beane is hoping that Dotel will have a fantastic 2005, which would be his first full season as a closer. If so, then Dotel's value will be HUGE. Once that happens, then Billy Beane can trade away Dotel mid or post-season for even more prospects, and of course with Street waiting in Sacramento, he doesn't have to worry about Dotel's replacement.

This is what BIlly Beane is all about - dealing from a position of strength.

by swizstick on Dec 19, 2004 6:11 PM PST up reply actions

Dotel is Legit

And we need a Legit closer. If we are going to have an unsure rotation, we at least better be able to close out the games we are in a position to win, and Dotel increases those chances. Dotel has a very live arm, throws hard and has great movement on his pitches. Plus he looks good in Green and Gold, and white shoes. Please keep him. We need Cruz too, please don't trade him Billy.

Let Durazo walk. We can plug his hole in the line up with Johnson. Let the kid have a chance, he's a monster. Some minor leaguers post even better numbers in the bigs because the pitchers are more around the plate.

And sign one more veteren pitcher as an insurance policy. Just like what the Twins have in Terry Mullholland. Don't laugh, Mullholland had some huge starts down the stretch last year for the Twinkies, and he can flip between the rotation and the pen, he's a lefty, and he's been around forever and can teach the pups on the team a thing or two.

The Twins and A's face similar struggles and it's fun to see how they approach each new season, with the restraints that they have.

I like Terry Ryan almost better than Beane. Ryan has to find an everyday second baseman and someone to plug third by this spring. Maybe Cuddyer is ready. Oops this isn't a Twins Blog.

Eeeerrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

He hate me because I'm Joe M's #1 A's fan

by Misfit on Dec 20, 2004 10:46 AM PST up reply actions

He love Me because...

...he finally make sense.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 20, 2004 1:01 PM PST up reply actions

Count your losses

Something does not seem right concerning these recent trades. First we lose Huddy. Than we lose Mark. What next, the A's themselves? I just caught the end of a KCBS radio blurb that possible The consultant (Wolf)the A's brought from LA may buy the team. Do we have to go through this "will they stay, will the go" bit all over again?

The A's appear to have picked up some nice kids. I just hope they are here so I can watch them grow.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Dec 19, 2004 6:15 PM PST reply actions

I know, I caught it too.

We'll find out more tomorrow.

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the future." -JFK.

by sf drift king on Dec 19, 2004 8:23 PM PST up reply actions

This entirely depends on....

....that Eric Barton becomes Pujols.

by everythinguknowiswrong on Dec 19, 2004 6:19 PM PST reply actions

Bullpen improves... so what?

The bullpen mattered when the team had good starting pitching. The thing we know best today is that the starting pitching on this team is questionable at best. The offence doesn't look to be any less questionable. Let me see now, how does that make this a better team?

by bayfrank on Dec 19, 2004 6:33 PM PST reply actions

remember

we now have around 8-10 mil to play around with.
Watch BB turn the tables on our competitors.

by everythinguknowiswrong on Dec 19, 2004 6:36 PM PST up reply actions

Unless Schott skims it as pure profit

Which he has every right to do, even though we'll hate his guts.

by AlamedaAphid on Dec 19, 2004 7:35 PM PST up reply actions

Not true

Most of that $8-10M in savings is soaked up by Kendall's contract. That contract put us over $70M, these two trades just brought us back to the $60M range, where we operated last year. There's not much money left.

by bigthree17 on Dec 20, 2004 12:11 AM PST up reply actions

The name of the back of the jersey

"For me those players on the back are as imprtant as the franchise on the front. I cant treat them like used parts, even if it might be a better way."

If we were a bunch of Yankee fans (gasp) we'd root for the laundry too (we'd also be a whole lot more annoying, but I digress). We'd treat all of our players as spare parts, bring in a never ending parade of players that Steinbrenner/Cahsman has bought from the other teams in MLB, then casting them off when the NY media tears them a new asshole when they screw up once (remember Chris Hammond?).

That in essence, is not quite different than yhe situation that us A's fans have. The name on the front stays the same, while the name on the back doesn't.

Look at the big budget teams who can afford to keep fan favorites. Did Anahiem keep the Troys? Did Boston try harder to keep Pedro, or NOT trade Nomar? Why didn't the Giants keep Kent? This can go on for awhile.

Every roster is always changing due to "buying" or "selling." The A's happen to be the people whoare selling.

People like John Smoltz, who has played their entire careers in the same organization are a dying breed.

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

by secret ASian man on Dec 19, 2004 7:06 PM PST reply actions

Smoltz started his career as a Tiger

He Hate Me

by Misfit on Dec 20, 2004 10:29 AM PST up reply actions

Really?

I always though he was a Brave, been so since at least the early 90's and the Tomahawk Chop era.

Well, you still get my point.

Whatever, my bad.

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

by secret ASian man on Dec 20, 2004 11:05 AM PST up reply actions

He was traded for Doyle Alexander in 1987

by bigthree17 on Dec 20, 2004 11:07 AM PST up reply actions

He played his entire

MLB career as a Brave ... I think that pretty much counts.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 20, 2004 11:18 AM PST up reply actions

re: Kotsay

One recurring comment that really irks me is the notion that we should trade Kotsay b/c "he just had a career year; trade him while his stock is high." From my POV:

1. Kotsay absolutely has the ability to hit as well in '05 and '06 as he did in '04. He is a "pure hitter"--an alley to alley line drive hitter who doesn't strike out much--who had a DOWN year in '03 due to injury.

2. He is such a terrific center-fielder that he would be a major asset if he only hit .260 with 12HR, which is about the worst offensive #s I can imagine him having in a healthy year.

3. He is in the Hudson-Kendall category of hard-nosed competitor. Having lost Huddy and committed to going with several young pitchers, we need to keep Kotsay for his personality/leadership qualities, as well as his talent.

I think this guy is way underrated by ANers. In my book, he is one of the top 2-3 untouchables left on the entire roster.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 19, 2004 7:46 PM PST reply actions

The best atmosphere for young pitchers...

is a pitchers park with a good defense. It keeps them from being afraid to throw the ball over the plate. A few long drives in the heavy night air hauled in by Kotsay does a lot for a young pitcher's confidence.

I think that it would be a bad time to tinker with the OF defense.

by Nick on Dec 19, 2004 8:11 PM PST up reply actions

kotsay

i've said that he should be traded, but i can agree with pretty much everything you've said here. no one can argue with the fact that the dude can flat out play.
and i don't think he's underrated by ANers, people became kotsay fans pretty fast when he started killing the ball.

i began to like him with his success in spring training and was probably a little too impressed by the fact that he was baseball america's college player of the decade or whatever...

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 10:44 PM PST up reply actions

The kool aid is taking affect.

I am starting to see a lot of positive stuff here, and it's getting me really pumped up.

I know that BB made some kind of statement about "not being competitive in '05", but I don't really believe it. But why did he say it? What is the motivation to do so? It can't be good for the players, and it certainly is not good for the fans? Is he really just covering his ass incase this experiment fails? No, I can't believe that. Not the coy fox he is, no way Jose Guillen.

There is something else. There has to be.

The A's are not "rebuilding", they are "reloading", and there's a big difference.

Open fire Billy.

"Fear leads to hate, and hate......leads to the Darkside."-Yoda

by Force on Dec 19, 2004 8:24 PM PST reply actions

I think the quote was...

"Certainly there's a lot of the future involved in this," Beane said. "I think with certain areas, we've improved. I'm not discounting 2005 either. We have to be very patient with three positions, that being the three starting pitchers."

taken from the ESPN report on the Mulder trade

If this is the one that's leading people to believe that BB's given up on '05, I think it's a misinterpretation. He specifically mentions that he's not giving up (actually, he says discounting) on 2005.

by Rangla on Dec 19, 2004 8:32 PM PST up reply actions

Beane should be the next Chairman of the Fed

This is just for fun, but does anyone else feel like Beane choses his words with the same caution and purpose as Greenspan? Not to mention the fact that we happily analyze them with the same fervor as traders disect every word Greenspan says.

I heard Beane plans to add right-handed bats at a "measured pace" between now and the start of Sprin Training.

by CrosbyFan on Dec 19, 2004 8:42 PM PST up reply actions

hah...

market surges as i buy up A's shares on the news!

by xbhaskarx on Dec 19, 2004 10:46 PM PST up reply actions

Billy sounds like Wall Street...

because he's been on the speaker circuit...talking to MBA types.

by LongTimeFan on Dec 20, 2004 9:27 AM PST up reply actions

MBA types?

You mean the Type A+ personalities who drive great cars, live in big houses, and sleep with beautiful women? Ya, we're jerks.

by jubjub on Dec 20, 2004 9:46 AM PST up reply actions

Feeling a little defensive there?

Nobody said anything bad about "MBA types", just that you have a profession-specific manner of speaking - like most professions, especially those that involve significant specialized education.

Enjoy your great car, big house, and beautiful women. I hope they bring you happiness.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 20, 2004 10:00 AM PST up reply actions

That's funny

"Enjoy your great car, big house, and beautiful women. I hope they bring you happiness."

It's a good thing you're not at all superficial. This coming from a guy who posts his "modeling"` pics under his profile on another A's fan site.

by bigthree17 on Dec 20, 2004 11:30 AM PST up reply actions

Yeah, well ...

Sometimes you have to be exposed to such "desireable" lifestyles to realize it's all bullshit and that it really has very little to offer and rarely brings real happiness. I've dated models, dined at many of the finest restaurants, enjoyed the softest leather auto interiors. You know what? I'd rather have a burrito at my favorite taqueria with my girlfriend who, while, of course very pretty, is far more concerned with keeping her 4.0 at Cal, then her looks.

But I was being sincere. I do hope the car, house, and well financed bosoms bring him happiness. It's just not for me.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 20, 2004 11:38 AM PST up reply actions

these last 3-4 posts...

...are the funniest shit i've read on the blog so far. fuck me......ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

"....funny coming from someone who posts their modeling pitcures......" ha ha ha ha ha. too much!

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 20, 2004 1:07 PM PST up reply actions

False humility

Is as thrilling as fullblown hedonism. My girlfriends and I are looking forward the The Swan finale.

by Patrick on Dec 20, 2004 1:48 PM PST up reply actions

I never claimed humility ...

I am very confident in my self worth. I was simple saying that I find the most value in non-monetary things and I believe most others do to ... even if they don't realize it and strive for monetary things at the expense of more valuable stuff.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 20, 2004 3:12 PM PST up reply actions

Never Defensive, only Offensive

The best defensive is a good offense!

by jubjub on Dec 20, 2004 12:00 PM PST up reply actions

speaking of irked

What irks me is all the comments saying that a good bullpen is no use without a great starting rotation. Nonsense. Lots of good teams have lived on great bullpens. One way to build a winning team is with a bunch of rock solid starters who consistently go 7-8 innings of 1-2 run ball. But it's not the only way, and it's a VERY expensive way unless you happen to have lucked into three young studs all maturing at the same time, like a certain team I could name did once.

And anyway, the starting rotation isn't going to be horrible. Zito and Harden are two legitimate aces, and the chances of at least one of the Other Three having a great year are pretty decent.

by matthias on Dec 19, 2004 8:37 PM PST reply actions

Agree, Matthias, but with one caviat

The one problem with young pitchers is that they tend to be brilliant more often but consisent less often. So let's say you have a lineup and bullpen that will win 2 games if the starter can go 6IP, 3ER twice (2-0, 4.50 ERA). The problem with rookies is that they will go 8IP, 1ER one game (win) and 4 IP, 5ER the other game (loss)--same ERA in the end, but a different winning pct. We might have to absorb some of that in '05. Of course, a key mitigator could be a "luxury long-reliever" who can salvage wins out of some of the rough starts--enter the Duke...?

Nico

by Nico on Dec 19, 2004 10:10 PM PST reply actions

The great thing about untested starters ...

and a great 'pen is that we won't feel compelled to let them stick it out and dig themselves a big hole when they don't have it, like we have with our Aces. They might give up 3 runs through 2 innings ... but they're gone before they can dig a real hole.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 19, 2004 10:16 PM PST up reply actions

also enter the Juan Cruz

that is if HE doesn't get traded (re: Gammons - Billy already has a "pretty decent offer for Cruz")

by rickeytime on Dec 20, 2004 12:47 AM PST up reply actions

mychael urban

he's gotta be talking about himself here, right?

"When Tim Hudson checked his cell phone Saturday night, the two calls he'd missed were from Mark Mulder and a Bay Area reporter.
It had been 48 hours since Hudson was traded from Oakland to Atlanta, and he'd already spoken to the reporter about it twice, so he instantly came to a conclusion."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041219&content_id=924062&vkey=news _mlb&fext=.jsp

by xbhaskarx on Dec 20, 2004 1:52 AM PST reply actions

or susan slusser from the chronicle

she seems to get a lot of quotes from the former "aces."

by sjpolo on Dec 20, 2004 10:35 AM PST up reply actions

Or Sammy Soser and Mike McGwire

by Misfit on Dec 20, 2004 11:22 AM PST up reply actions

susan slusser

the Chronicle has noticed this too, and they're thinking of trading her to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution for two cub reporters nobody's ever heard of but who are five-tool (vocabulary, grammar, typing speed, ambition, schmooze-ability) prospects.

by vk on Dec 20, 2004 1:55 PM PST up reply actions

LOL!

Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 20, 2004 5:10 PM PST up reply actions

Talent management

That's funny, but it's also telling -- talent management in the newspaper biz is the exact opposite of Beane's modus operandi. Most newspapers, the Chron included, are run like the Mets: paying top dollar for a handful of big-name stars whose productivity is far outweighed by their compensation, stocking the middle of the team with established veterans, and not being able to develop quality prospects.

Might explain why the Rattos and Ostlers of the world dislike Beane -- Ratto and Ostler see themselves as the Huddy and Mulder of the Chron.

by monkeyball on Dec 21, 2004 7:21 AM PST up reply actions

optimistic view

much has been discussed the last few days about the gaudy achievements of hudson and mulder over the past five years or so. from a standpoint of gauging the a's ability to remain competitive in the west next year, however, we need look only at their stats from last year, and think about how to replace them.

last year's 91 win team featured one starter with a mid-3 era (hudson), another with about a 4 era (harden), and the other three in the mid-4's. era isn't a tell-all, but looking at this basic measure of pitching effectiveness, if harden and zito can improve their 2004 era's by half a run, and if the other three starters can average mid-4 era's, the 2005 rotation could match the performance of the 2004 staff.

one can be hopeful, but that is probably too much to expect. you never know how young, unproven pitchers are going to turn out, and so there is a lot of built-in risk in three slots in the rotation. all three are highly regarded though, and the presence of spot starters duchscherer and cruz provide some insurance if one of the youngsters flames out. averaging a mid-4 era among the three spots does not sound unreasonable, though one certainly shouldn't expect it. harden and zito are expected to better their 2004 performances, but by how much is unclear. it is certainly conceivable to see them improving their era's by a combined 1 between them, given harden's growth curve and zito's pre-2004 stats.

likely, the a's starting rotation will be weaker than it was last year, but potentially not as much as people think. with the offense slightly upgraded (adding obp at C and power at 2b, with an .800ish OPS guy at every position) and with the bullpen improved as well, the a's could very well be positioned to be competitive in 2005.

by wg on Dec 20, 2004 3:55 AM PST reply actions

september 05 schedule

perhaps beane decided to shoot for 06 and beyond after seeing the 05 schedule.

i still think they'll finish above .500, but even if they manage to be in contention going into the home stretch, the september schedule looks pretty damn tough.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 20, 2004 8:40 AM PST reply actions

Somehow I don't think ...

it was the schedule makers that made Beane decide we needed to retool.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 20, 2004 9:02 AM PST up reply actions

i wasn't being serious

just pointing out that the september schedule sucks

by xbhaskarx on Dec 20, 2004 9:04 AM PST up reply actions

strange coincidence

the a's used to be all about pitchers whose last names started with the letter "h" (haren and harikkala brings them back up to a respectable 3).

now it seems like they're going to be an all california team soon:
both catchers.
4/5 of the outfielders.
the only starting infielder not from ca is hatte and he's from oregon.

just thought i'd bring that useless information to everyone's attention...

by xbhaskarx on Dec 20, 2004 9:04 AM PST reply actions

Koincidence

Just like last year's spate of "K" akquisitions!

I'm actually intrigued by the Harden-Haren thing. I'm expecting Beane to find and acquire some minor leaguers named "Harn," "Han," and "Ha."

by monkeyball on Dec 21, 2004 7:25 AM PST up reply actions

re: Win's post, starters' ERAs

Problem is, even if the 3 rooks are all "star-bound" (best-case scenario), a Mulder-type pitcher (Meyer) might go 9-10 with an ERA in the 5's, a Harden-type pitcher (Haren) might be wildly inconsistent until he has pitched one full year...you get the analogies.

I think a more realistic hope is that 1-2 rooks starts strong enough to "belong" in a contending rotation (as Zito and Hudson did), 1-2 rooks struggle (as Mulder/Harden did) but you stay with him so he can develop for '06, and if one flames out you have Duke as insurance.

The end result I'm expecting: One (unpredictable) ace, one (still a bit inconsistent) budding star, one solid starter, one starter who looks good but puts up average numbers, and one "poor" starter with potential.

With a good enough offense and deep enough bullpen, this can win a division (Angels) or contend thru September (Rangers, '04)...but I don't think we can hope for 4.00-4.50 ERAs from all 3 rooks, no matter how good they might, eventually, be.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 20, 2004 9:30 AM PST reply actions

You are probably right

Next year will definately be interesting. Our team could be great, or could flop, with thousands of possibilities in between. It will also be fun to follow some more young talent in the game, and watch them mature into stars (hopefully). If there is one thing 2005 has in store for us, it is surprises.

On another note, the A's will be sick after the 2005 season, and I am really excited for that.

Be glad we have the best GM in the game, because otherwise, Mulder and Hudson wouldn't have gotten traded and the A's would have been dead in 2 years.

by Cy Hudson on Dec 20, 2004 10:15 AM PST reply actions

That's Pretty Relative

He's a damn fine GM, up their with the top GM's in Baseball. Bill Stoneman is so underated, as is Terry Ryan. I like Stoneman and Ryan as much as Beane. Stoneman has a phat checkbook though, but he was making great trades before Artie bought the team. Billy is great, I just feel ANer's wear rose colored glasses sometimes. The guy across the Bay is pretty damn good too.

He Hate Everyone - MERRY CHRISTMAS

by Misfit on Dec 20, 2004 11:28 AM PST up reply actions

Maybe

Is Bill Stoneman really a good GM? I don't follow the Angels moves too much, but I don't remember anything great from him. As far as I know, he can spend whatever he wants (which doesn't make him bad, it just makes it harder to tell if he is good).

I would agree that the Twins and Giants GMs are great. Nothing like Billy though (and yes, I am very biased).

by Cy Hudson on Dec 20, 2004 12:32 PM PST up reply actions

Angels

I do not think any GM whose major plan heading into last year was to take a great fielding no hit cf and turn him into a firstbaseman a great GM. Or this year to sign a 38 old who can no longer field and plan to put him in cf. As an A fan I am thankful that thee Angels do not make better use of thier 100 million payroll.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 20, 2004 2:17 PM PST up reply actions

Stoneman

He got more out of trading Guillen than he should have.

by grover on Dec 20, 2004 7:14 PM PST up reply actions

Our team will not be great

Not with 3 unproven starters. We may be good, but not great. The Yankees are great. They should be when just their pitching totals $95 mil.

He Still Hate Me JM IS Rulin

by Misfit on Dec 20, 2004 11:24 AM PST reply actions

Yes, they can be great

I still think they have a shot at winning the division. Their offense and bullpin are upgraded from last year. Even though their starting pitching is completely revamped, you do have to remember that the starting pitching wasn't there last year. Hudson was out for 6 weeks, Barry the first half of the year, Mulder the 2nd half. I will take any of the new 3 guys over the combined total of Mulder's 2nd half and Barry's first half. Man, the new guys might perform better than Mulder's and Zito's seasons last year. They probably won't win the division this year, but they DEFINATELY have a chance. If they do win the division, I would consider them GREAT. Yes, any division winner in baseball is GREAT. Therefore, they A's could be great next year.

by Cy Hudson on Dec 20, 2004 12:39 PM PST up reply actions

Reasonable expectations

I think it's reasonable to hope that Zito will step up to be a worthy #1-2 starter and that Harden will be ready for semi-dominance at the level of a #1-2. One of the rookies will be a worthy #3, so #1-#3 might be on par with a division contender...Then you'll likely see a significant drop-off to a weak #4-5. But...playoff rivals' #4-5 has been Sele-R. Ortiz, Benoit-Wasdin, Lohse-Mulholland, Wakefield-Arroyo.

It comes down to whether the A's can score runs next year. This is no longer a team built on winning games 3-2; it is a team built on leading 4-3, or 5-4, after 6IP, and dominating the game's final 1/3...Worked recently for Anaheim and Texas, b/c they could score runs...

Nico

by Nico on Dec 20, 2004 1:13 PM PST reply actions

A feel-good link, to be sure

Searching scouting reports on Dan Meyer, sure like the first one I stumbled upon:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1948458

Nico

by Nico on Dec 20, 2004 4:11 PM PST reply actions

Did anybody check out the A's homepage?

There's a great story about the genius of Billy Bean, who is THE Number one smartest GM in the biz. He got the most for Hudson and Mulder that he ever could have and kept the best of the three. The new A's will be better that last year and surprise all the baseball experts and win the division. I just have a good feeling about this group. Lot's of good contact hitting speed and power. Just a better all around team. I'm so much more psyched for '05 A's now then I was last week before the trades.

by A'sfansince1970 on Dec 20, 2004 9:36 PM PST reply actions

i'm a fan of the trades

but that's a bit much, win the division?? maybe in 06.
i don't know about keeping the best of the big three either, maybe keeping the least injury prone of the big three, which is a smart move. either way zito's gone next year.

by xbhaskarx on Dec 21, 2004 12:51 AM PST up reply actions