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Yesterday: End of an Oakland Era

Oakland_tiny by Blez on in News

Yesterday, all our troubles seemed so far away...

The Original Oakland Big Three are no more.  It's the end of the Beatles of the East Bay.  We're left with Harrison, Starr and McCartney to toe the slab.

Tim Hudson was a horse for the Oakland Athletics.  A .700 winning percentage.  A smaller man who worked hard on his craft, honed his pitching and made the best hitters in the American League look silly.

And now, he is in the National League, pitching close to his roots with the Atlanta Braves.

As I predicted, Billy Beane made a move when he felt the time was right.

I'm not shocked by the move because the A's got a good mix of players in return.  Charles Thomas had a solid rookie year, despite his overmatched look in the playoffs.  Juan Cruz is a solid bullpen addition to set up for Dotel.  And Meyer is the gem of the deal.  A top pitching prospect who is major league ready.

Who knows whether the quality of the players Billy is getting in return will match even a single season of performance from Tim Hudson, but the truth is that Billy could not wait until March 1st or even until the season started.  Why?  Because he could not take the chance that Tim Hudson would get hurt again and we'd lose a star, stud pitcher for nothing but draft picks.

Were there better deals out there?  Only Billy and the rest of the front office knows.  You never really know if Edwin Jackson was discussed until Billy himself says it.

The reality of our fandom is that this team needs to be a chameleon, adapting in order to survive.

But I will say once more that I am sad to see the end of an Oakland era.  The Big Three are no more.  The Fab Four never really had a chance to materialize.

I'll change and adapt with my team.  No throwing the green and gold out for me.  My daughter will still be at the Coliseum with me next season.  And the season after that.

It doesn't mean that I'm not devastated to lose a talent like Tim Hudson.  I just need to realize that instead of Hey Jude, we've got something else.  

Back off Boogaloo.  

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Blez--this one does hurt
The hard thing about losing Tejada last year wasn't the fact that we lost his production, it was the fact that he was the heart of our team...it was him that carried us to the playoffs in 2003 not with his bat but with his heart and drive.  He's the reason we didn't make it this past year.  Now Hudson.  When Tejada left, Hudson became the heart of the A's...he's always had that determination and drive that you just don't see from Chavvy, Mulder, and Zito.  So, I'm not just sad to lose Huddy, but it seems that now our team is just too vunerable without heart.  
I love the A's and I hope that the "grit" from Kendall can make him a leader in that clubhouse, or we're in trouble.

by runtru1 on Dec 16, 2004 3:06 PM PST   0 recs

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Bye bye baseball... see you next march.

by ucla kid on Dec 16, 2004 3:07 PM PST   0 recs

i dunno
when i think of the "F'n A" trade, it usually goes the other way....
3 unprovens for huddy?  how is that any better than unproven draft picks AND huddy for one more run?

by pseudokiwi on Dec 16, 2004 3:08 PM PST   0 recs

It's not
Like I said in the last thread, Billy just pulled a Kenny Williams. This is horrible. With the Mariners new offense, we really could actually get last next year.

by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 3:15 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

comon now, look at it objectively
"Like I said in the last thread, Billy just pulled a Kenny Williams"

that is brutal. and wrong.

kenny williams still had fouke for one year and he traded him, strait up for .... Billy Koch. We don't get Hudson after next year. Too much money. Too much money for a 29yr, soon to be 30yr old pitcher, who breaks down occasionally.

We got 3 good players in return. Scouts and statheads like all three of the players. Thomas is dynamic. 4 triples in 238 at bats last year? he hits lefties and righties. He might not get any better, but he won't neccesarily get worse either. and a .813 OPS outfielder whose fielding (.993, RF  2.22) is superb. Oh yeah and he's cheap.

Dan Meyer has never posted an ERA higher than 3 in professional ball. Interested? He gives up a home run every 12 innings. Still not interested? go take a look at greg maddux's Minor league stats. then compare them with Meyer's. then get back to me on why you are not interested in the guy. Oh yeah and he's cheap.

Juan Cruz. Did someone say something about a reliever? hes only 26, has electric stuff. Oh yeah and he's cheap.

Anyone who says this is a bad trade needs to take a deep breath and come out of their Tim Hudson shrine and move to Atlanta. Beane diversified his assets because he was forced to. and because the market for quality starting pitching is so scarce (read, the whole dodgers tangent) he made a killing. we cheer for the organization, but I know that I will be cheering for all three of these guys to keep it up and make Billy look brilliant.

now here is my prediction, soon we'll be singing bye bye byrnesy.

Baseball is a market game. This site helps create a market. Blez makes the site. Blez is helping the A's win the world series.

by BaseballTao on Dec 16, 2004 6:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Objectively speaking
Thomas has all the makings of a 4th OF. If he becomes more than that this deal is a winner, otherwise Beane has come as close to having a Kenny Williams moment as he can. ANYONE could have gotten Cruz and Meyer for Hudson, we expected more than Thomas from Beane.

by grover on Dec 16, 2004 6:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

you expect more?
what do you want? edwin jackson? I'll stop laughing then make my point.

you can't trade tim hudson for barry bonds. and even then, he would want a new deal closer to Arod's ridiculous fee. we got 3 players who can play in the big leagues. and for better or worse, and each of them will get better or worse, they fill holes on the squad for next year. we will be deeper. we will be better. and most importantly we get to keep those assets for longer than 2005.

Baseball is a market game. This site helps create a market. Blez makes the site. Blez is helping the A's win the world series.

by BaseballTao on Dec 16, 2004 6:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Back up a step
I'm a big fan of Meyer. And I understand why Beane wanted Cruz. I've got no problems there. But I could have gotten that deal from the Braves if I had Hudson on the block. I expect more from Beane because I can't be that good!

Thomas is a 4th OF. He played well in his big league debut but what happens when the league has a book on him? Look at his minor league numbers. What do you see based on his past performance that makes you believe he's capable of being a starting outfielder? Because I don't see it and I've got a very good imagination.

by grover on Dec 17, 2004 6:05 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Even though I said I was ready for this...
...I'm not ready to say goodbye to Huddy.

by BillybUcko on Dec 16, 2004 3:08 PM PST   0 recs

Meyer may be the gem of the deal,
but he's a kid pitcher, and all kid pitchers are suspect.

Cruz had a good year with the Cubs, then utterly collapsed, and then revived again under Leo Mazzone. Curt Young is no Leo Mazzone.

Thomas is worthless. I mean that literally: he's the kind of fourth outfielder you can pick up for near the minimum any time you want.

Without having any more inside information than anyone else, I can say with complete confidence that there was one better deal out there: keep Huddy, watch him light up his contract year, and take a shot at winning the damn pennant. The draft pick we would have then gotten wouldn't be as valuable as Meyer, Cruz and Thomas, but it wouldn't be substantially less valuable, either.

by jrbh on Dec 16, 2004 3:08 PM PST   0 recs

my point exactly
:(

by pseudokiwi on Dec 16, 2004 3:10 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I can't believe that after watching Kielty &
Karros and T-Long you would call any player with a .368 OBP worthless.

IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON.

I truly think Billy also feels the risk of Hudson getting injured is high.  So why not add three parts, addressing three specific needs on the team (a young pitcher, bullpen help and an outfield prospect who had a very good rookie season) while you still can.

by Blez on Dec 16, 2004 3:13 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

i wouldn't say worthless...
but is their cumulative value in both the short and long term better than huddy for a year, draft picks, and what is already in the farm?

by pseudokiwi on Dec 16, 2004 3:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Agree
His OPS was higher than many A's regulars last year, including Crosby and Dye.  He's young, cheap, reasonably talented, and ours (at least for awhile).
Just me...

by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 3:19 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Too many words ....
but he's a kid pitcher, and all kid pitchers are suspect.

What that should have said is, "he's a pitcher, and all kid pitchers are suspect."

Huddy's not a kid, Bazito's not a kid, Mulder's not a kid ... and they all struggled last year. Who struggled the least? the "kid pitcher", Rich Harden.

A draft pick (actually, two) would have been enormously less valuable. Even for the most effective teams, most draft picks are busts. Of the two picks we'd have gotten, it would be considered an above average draft if one of them ever got a sniff of the bigs. We've got three guys who are ready to contribute at the big league level - two of them with the potential to be stars.

Thomas won't be a superstar, but he did post an OPS of .813 as a rookie. That'd damn impressive. He's also started to develop a power stroke lately. He's a great addition.

As far as Cruz utterly collapsing - he was 22!!!! Twenty friggin two. Now he's twenty four (his 2005 age) and has a 3.99 era in 275 ML innings. What's not to like about that?

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 16, 2004 3:20 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Cruz's age
I wouldn't take those numbers too seriously.  His reported age was always a big joke here in Chicago.  What's not to like about Cruz is his minute frame and his ability to get rattled.  He has good stuff though.  He was one of those Pedro Jr. types....yeah yeah.  Ramon Ortiz if he is lucky.

by Patrick on Dec 16, 2004 3:25 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Cruz
Keep him in the bullpen. His found success there and God knows the A's need help in the pen.

by grover on Dec 16, 2004 3:55 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

just cracked a nice cold beer
and lifted one to huddy.

i believe oakland goes to atlanta next yr.

expect an ass kickin'.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 16, 2004 3:10 PM PST   0 recs

The A's Will Be in Atlanta
June 10, 11 and 12, a weekend series, right after they play Selig's Folly in Montreal, Washington, San Juan, Las Vegas, Portland, or wherever.

by jrbh on Dec 16, 2004 3:12 PM PST   0 recs

How Many Albums
Did Harrison, Starr and McCartney do together?

There's a reason John Lennon is the idol.

The A's are not the same.

I'm going to the liquor store.

by jmoney on Dec 16, 2004 3:13 PM PST   0 recs

inevitable, i suppose....
just saw the trade announcement on SportsCenter; it stinks that Huddy had to be moved. I saw one of his first big-league starts in '99...he completely shut down a Diamondbacks' team that won 100 games that year.

Charles Thomas did have a good rookie season (as my good friend Hubie Brown would say, "ya gotta like the upside on this kid") and using Cruz as a bridge to Dotel is an improvement over last season...though I don't know if Octavio can reach the shutdown ability of Izzy, Foulke, etc.

Can someone give me a few details about Meyer? Is he on a par with Harden and Blanton regarding, ahem, "upside"?

I *spit* on the Rally Monkey!

by bakedzito on Dec 16, 2004 3:15 PM PST   0 recs

More Blanton then Harden...
Blanton and Meyer both project to be #3 types. Innings eaters capable of winning 13-16 games in a given season.

Harden is going to be one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball in 2006, and the best in 2007, bar none. This kid is special, and he's 22 years old. He's at a different level then the other two.

Btw...this is the second Dan Meyer the A's have had. The first Dan Meyer was a first baseman that came over from the mariners in the mid 1980's. He had calcium deposits in his neck and was always twisting and adjusting his neck in the batters box between every pitch.

Drove me nuts.

Let's hope this Dan Meyer works out a bit better. :-)

by nodaclu on Dec 16, 2004 4:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

the original dan meyer
didn't see him, may not have been born yet, but that description is giving me unwanted visions of Jim Eisenreich.    
John Schuerholz looking like the front-runner for executive of the year...the thing that gets me is, the POTENTIAL of the three players gotten in return does not exceed Hudson's ability.  Why couldn't Ricciardi have pulled the trigger on Hudson for Vernon Wells?  (Rosenthal of TSN said Beane offered any of the Big Three for Wells and was denied...if I'm Toronto, I trade Vernon Wells for Tim Hudson or Mark Mulder, and as an A's fan I'd be much happier with Wells than a Mazzone reclamation project, a glorified Dave Roberts, and a pitching prospect who needs to be "able to command the fastball"...stop the Greg Maddux comparisons when that's the scouting report.
Fuckin' A, the Braves have quite a 1-2 punch in the rotation now
The mullet is the reason why people hate you.--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Dec 16, 2004 9:57 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hudson in Toronto?
No, for 3 reasons:
  1. Hudson pitching half his games on a fast carpet would get ugly fast.  He no longer strikes much of anyone out, and inducing a ton of ground balls at the SkyDome is a good way to start giving up 11 hits every 9 innings.
  2. Toronto won't be able to sign him to a long contract, partly due to reason #1.  What is one year of Hudson worth to Toronto when they'll get steamrolled by NY and Boston anyway?  He gets them from 79 to 84 wins?  So what?
  3. Wells is still largely potential:  he's 25, has had one tremendous season and 3 slightly-better-than-average seasons.  He's more of a sure thing than the prospects we got from ATL, but partly due to that we weren't gonna get him (and his 3 pre-FA years) away from Toronto for one year of Hudson giving up groundball singles to left and right start after start in the SkyDome.  As far as Zito or Mulder are concerend in this trade, we'd have a gaping hole in the rotation this year without one of them, and and even bigger, cavernous hole in 2006 when Hudson signs with ATL as a free agent.

by Nick on Dec 17, 2004 8:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Dave Roberts???
Over essentially four seasons, Dave Roberts has 11 career homeruns. His career high in OPS was .716.

As a rookie Thomas hit 7 homeruns and posted an .813 ops.

So, umm, what the fcuk are you talking about?

All pitching prospects, except Mark Prior and those who don't actually have a fastball (would you prefer some of them?) need to be "able to command the fastball" ... though it is suspicious that nothing you quoted put in doubt his current ability "to command the fastball." He's a good of a AAA prospect as you'll find.

Cruz isn't a Mazzone reclamation project. He had a combined 3.7 era as a rookie and a sophmore. He had an attrocious third year and he bounced back in his fourth. That's a pretty solid developmental curve. He has a nasty fastball and we've got him locked for the next three years for cheap.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 17, 2004 9:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

calling me out
indeed, Toronto is more strapped for cash than the A's, I live 2 hours away in Buffalo and get to hear about it all the time.  Didn't factor in the turf, that was a good call, although you have to wonder how long they (or Minnesota) can tolerate their atmosphere-killing home environments before they opt to implode.  Heh, generous projections on the Blue Jays' win totals next year, both with and without Hudson...try 60 to 65, if you're setting the lines for a sportsbook, let me know, I'll waste no time in opening an account.  
Now we turn to "what the fcuk are you talking about"...I have way too much pride not to respond to this.  Granted, Cruz is no Scott Kamanickei (I may not even be close with the spelling, but I tried)or even, gulp, Chris Hammond (true Mazzone reclamation projects), but the guy's career was starting to parallel that of a former Brave top prospect: Bruce Chen.  Let's just say if he has another year like the previous ones, instead of praising the development curve, we're thinking up humorous ways to say he's a bust.  Let's face it, Mazzone as your pitching coach is a variable that must be controlled for, reverse-Coors Field-style.  I twice saw Cruz get shelled at Wrigley, so maybe I'm also biased by anecdotal evidence, but the stats support the skepticism.  But as my buddy pointed out, he can at the very least be a valuable bat off the bench.  Wow, did I dare tell a joke, Devo?
Now to ex-Buffalo Bison Dave Roberts.  Key word in there was glorified.  Always seems to get overlooked.  If you don't believe me, explain to me how Glorified G is not one of 33 songs on Pearl Jam's greatest hits.  Anyway, clearly, Dave Roberts' lack of power is so extreme that he should not be compared to anyone except for like Otis Nixon.  But were he to start, Charles Thomas would be one of the lightest-hitting OFs in the league.  Obviously your reading is not sophisticated enough to sense a bit of healthy embellishment to further my point.  
As for Meyer, I assumed from context you could deduce that "needing to locate his fastball" was an area that needed improvement...I also quote, uh, something I read, maybe on ESPN, maybe not, that said reviews around the league on Meyer are decidedly mixed.  
Finally, inspired by a headline I saw back in the day when the Buffalo Sabres stole Alexei Zhitnik from the LA Kings:
Atlanta 7, Oakland 0
Cutthemullet 7, Devo 0
if you want to dispute either of those find me compelling evidence that trading for pitching prospects is ever a rational decision...I would like to see an analysis of all established star-for-prospect X...I'd estimate the amount of trades where production by the prospect(s) exceeds that of the star at around 10%.  Pure guess, but you would think it would have been studied by now.
The mullet is the reason why people hate you.--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 2:51 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

one other note
can never have too much faith in the development curve of a man whose age is not beyond doubt.
The mullet is the reason why people hate you.--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 2:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Your reply to Devo
Cruz is a power arm out of the bullpen. The A's shouldn't mess with the success he's had.

As for Meyer:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1948458

BA has said his control is top-notch. "Command of his fastball" is not an issue. As for the "mixed reviews" about two weeks ago I read in the SportingNews that one player personnel type wouldn't trade Baltimore's Erik Bedard for anyone on Oakland's pitching staff. You'll find mixed reviews on just about every player.

by grover on Dec 17, 2004 3:08 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

cutthemullet...
....since you are from buffalo, probably a bills fan, and a sadist who sat through 4 superbowls  without winning, you're comments are...well...to be ignored.
it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 17, 2004 6:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

ahh the hits keep coming...
must be a lot of mullet fans on this site
losing 4 straight Super Bowls, losing 4 straight 1st round playoff series 3-2, No Goal, Forward Lateral...as a sports fan, I cannot win.
For the record, in every post of yours I've read you come across as a complete idiot.  It's OK for you to post, but don't let me see you.  
See if you figure that one out.  Crack open a cold one and salute yourself if you do.
The mullet is the reason why people hate you.--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 7:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Now we probably know...
...more about the payroll (on the lower side of the speculations..I was right to be concerned about how the Kendall trade would affect signing Huddy), about the A's estimation of Huddy's health issues (risky), and about short vs. long term contentions (weakens the A's for 2005, especially vs. the rest of the AL west). of course there may be more trades, but that's my take on this trade. They may have gotten more on a 1-2 year timeline than they would have gotten if he had walked after 2005, but these 3 won't come close to making up for Huddy in 2005.

Of course I'll continue to root for my beloved Oakland A's. But I am very sorry to see Huddy go. I hope the A's don't come to regret this one.

by OaklandSi on Dec 16, 2004 3:15 PM PST   0 recs

Trade sucks
there is no such thing as a pitching prospect. enough said.

beane better spin this around in july for something.

by suggy on Dec 16, 2004 3:16 PM PST   0 recs

Par for the course
Before anyone decides to end it all, take a deep breath. We are A's fans, remember? There was no way Hudson was going to resign and BB had to do something (as Blez said) before March 1st.

I am no expert and am going with my faith in BB on this one. Who knows, maybe this isn't the end of this transaction. All I know is that BB has been more right than wrong.

Good luck to Tim. The Braves are getting a great pitcher, competitor and person. I am still very proud to be a fan of the Green and Gold.

by RudiFan on Dec 16, 2004 3:19 PM PST   0 recs

Hear hear!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

by Jeff in Seattle on Dec 16, 2004 3:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Wow
After going so hard for Giles, I honestly didn't think Charles Thomas and Juan Cruz would entice Beane that much...(we all knew Meyer was going to be in the deal).  All I have to say is..thanks Oakland.  Although this is all moot if Huddy ends up in Yankee pinstripes next year (for the Braves, at least).  

by tulanite on Dec 16, 2004 3:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Moneyballs, Good luck Huddy
Lets face it at the core of what Billy Beane has to do is have the balls to gut the team of the developing high priced players on a yearly basis. The A's were great for five years because of a core of young developing players - Giambi, Tejada, Chavez, Hernandez, Hudson, Zito and Mulder. The Moneyball schtick is just the window dressing around the core that is disappearing.
It is time to gamble and replace the core with young cheap studs.
For Tim Hudson he is going to a great team, close to home and he gets to hit and run the bases - which he loves to do - it is good for him. It is good for the A's cuz they only see him if they make it to the WS and the odd interleague game. He is probably an instant favorite to win the NL Cy Young

by Aparicio11 on Dec 16, 2004 3:20 PM PST   0 recs

YEEEE!
couldn't have said it better myself!

by clatino on Dec 16, 2004 3:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Funny You Should Bring Up TLong,
Because that's who Thomas reminds me of.

He has occasional power, but nothing that allows you to put him anywhere near the middle of the line-up.

Except for one oddball year (2003) in the minors, he's never walked much, he's not good enough to play CF, he has a certain amount of speed which he's never learned to turn into stolen bases, and the managers of the teams he's played on don't seem to think he can bunt much, either.

And you have to wonder about his ability to handle pressure: he was strictly deer-in-the-headlights in the playoffs this year, and in almost exactly 500 professional plate appearances in 2004, he had one (1) sacrifice fly.

So, yeah, I think he's worthless. Not in the literal sense: the guy is good enough to make a major league roster. Only a tiny percentage of guys who ever pick up a glove can do that. But in major league terms, guys like him are a dime a dozen. He brings the A's nothing they couldn't get easily elsewhere.

by jrbh on Dec 16, 2004 3:25 PM PST   0 recs

I was going to mention that too...
I remember back in T-Long's rookie season, I was actually decently high on him-- there's no way, really, I think or thought that he'd go downhill after that. In case you need your memory jogged, he hit a .788 OPS his rookie year, (despite a mediocre OBP) and placed second in the ROY balloting behind Kazuhiro Sasaki (who did pretty well himself that year, but it could be argued that T-Long deserved the ROY if saves are overvalued)

But then he fell apart, for reasons I'm not sure of.

Still, I think it's the usual path for players to get better as they mature beyond their rookie year, and though Thomas is a little older than most, I think it's a harsh decision to write him off as a scrub immediately. Though I think it's equally foolish to presume he'll be a superstar. He did put up solid numbers, and who knows, if given a role here, he'll do well.

by Trocmagic on Dec 16, 2004 3:32 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks Rob Neyer on your assesment of Chucky T
JRBH, you're so funny.  Commenting on this guy like you actually followed him last year.  All you did was look at some baseball prospectus, and based your comments off of that.  You just looked at numbers and said, T Longish.  If T Long had posted those numbers in the Mets Minor League system, and at the bigs, I doubt they would have traded Long for nothing like they did.  You are making your comments as if you have seen this guy bat 25 times, and have watched him play in the field.  Yeah right.  Chucky T had solid numbers last year.  He won't come close to falling apart like T Long, because we all know, T Long had as much patience at the plate as Rob Deer, plus he had a huge hole in his swing, and he had as bad an attitude as JRBH does.  

Chucky T is much more patient, is a good guy to have in the clubhouse, based on Bobby Cox's comments.  He has above average speed, plays very good D, and will probably develop more power.  Give the dude 500 AB's and he might suprise people with better than Byrnsy numbers.  He my post .290+ avg with 15-25 homers and 80rbi.  He will have a better VORP than T Long too.  Barf.  I'll take that over what has been in the outfield the past couple of years.  

He HATE's ME, because I'm Joe Morgan's #1 A's fan.  Long live the greatest 2nd baseman maybe ever.      

 

by Misfit on Dec 17, 2004 8:45 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

How do you come up with this stuff?
Thomas has never shown the extra base potential to out-slug Byrnes. He muscled up some last year and his walk rate took a nose dive from his early minor league days. He had 12 unintentional walks in 236 big league at bats and you're going to sit there and tell us that he's got good patience? Thomas will replace McMillon but that's about it.

by grover on Dec 17, 2004 2:54 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

the talking prospect handbook
Thomas had an .813 OPS in his part-time rookie year. Byrnes had an .814 last year. Yeah, how would he ever get the idea that they may post similar numbers over a full season?  

by Reg on Dec 17, 2004 4:42 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Talking?
Who's talking?
Grover are you talking to yourself again?

Seriously, though. I'm a lot more optimistic about, well, everything that has to do with the A's than most everybody, Grover included ... and that holds true in regards to Thomas.

He does make a good point, though, that his OPS was inflated because of all those IBB, I presume because he was batting 8th, and they wanted to pitch to the pitcher with two outs and runners on. His OPS would have been quite a bit lower if you took those out. (About 50 points)

His career k:bb rate in the high minors and the fact that his upturn in production started in 2003 - plus his spectacular defense, and, apparently great clubhouse attitude - makes me optimistic.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 17, 2004 4:49 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I'm trying to keep an open mind on Thomas
But hearing people say we should trade Byrnes and just stick Thomas in LF is nuts. He hasn't shown that kind of ability. I think CT is a welcome improvement over Kielty. He deserves a chance to split time with Swisher and Byrnes.

But to give him a starting job outright? No way.

by grover on Dec 17, 2004 5:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Totally reasonable ...
Though if Byrnes was part of a valuable enough trade package, I wouldn't be overly concerned about letting him man the job.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 17, 2004 5:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I would
Because it would mean another year with Kielty and I just don't think I could handle that.

Besides, Swisher is still a rookie and he did struggle a bit against RH pitching. Thomas the 4th gives the A's a little cushion in case that continues to be the case.

by grover on Dec 17, 2004 5:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Is Brynes on the way out??
I loved Huddy.  He and Chavy are the guys who've been there since I discovered the A's in 2000. BUT - Huddy was the oldest of the Big 3, had some injury history, had mixed results in playoff and playoff-pressure games, threw a lot of pitches per start (being a groundball pitcher), and had a low strikeout ratio. BB clearly decided early on Huddy would not be the one of the Big 3 to sign long-term.  This move does not seem bad to me.

Will Thomas take Byrnes' place in the OF at lower cost?  Should the A's pony up to keep Byrnes??? What does AN think??

by jschreib59 on Dec 16, 2004 3:26 PM PST   0 recs

pitches per start
huddy grew out of throwing a lot of pitches per start

by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 16, 2004 10:42 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Rudifan said it all.
Let's all hoist one to Huddy and just know that BB knows what he's doing. Meyer will be a stud, as will Cruz and Thomas. Or one of them will be trade bait. See you all hopefully in Arizona this Spring, definitely Oakland this summer.
GO A's!

by mitche82865 on Dec 16, 2004 3:26 PM PST   0 recs

Keep Byrnsie!
You gotta! He's all out!
GO A's!

by mitche82865 on Dec 16, 2004 3:27 PM PST   0 recs

Amen to that!
Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 3:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Which World Series....
did the Big Three pitch in? That's right, ZERO. zip. nada. none.

Before you jump all over me, I'm a huge A's fan. Part of the original AN. I'm even a Hudson fan.

But the truth is that, the formula and personnel wasn't getting it done.

Time to move on. It's sad to see Hudson go. But its time to turn the page.

by nathan. on Dec 16, 2004 3:29 PM PST   0 recs

You know what?
This will be my attitude when I get over the shock. As good as he was, Hudson was not our guy for the playoffs. As much as we want the big 3 or the big 4, we HAD them. For years. And we honestly have nothing to show for it except a couple of pennants and a 4 year, first round playoff curse.

I will miss Hudson, but he is not the perfect player that everyone is making him out to be. Do not forget either the re-occuring injury or the infamous bar brawl in Boston.

I will toast to Hudson. Thanks, Bulldog; there's not many better.

And I look forward to the new design of the A's with Mulder and Zito getting back on track.

Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 3:41 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

nothing to show?
And we honestly have nothing to show for it except a couple of pennants and a 4 year, first round playoff curse.

That's not nothing. I'm afriad we may learn the true meaning of "nothing" in 2005.

by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 3:49 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

hmmm
it's not like we had a lot to show last year either...

by pseudokiwi on Dec 16, 2004 3:54 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

What is that based on?
Miller cost quite a few games last year.  The Kendall trade is contraversial....but over and done with.  We will win games with him in there...his contract is another matter.  Another power bat and I think we got as good of a chance as last year.  Hudson wasn't the constant savior that some are portraying him as.  His attitude was certainly dope though.  After living through the Haynes, Oquist horseshit....don't associate the current roster with 'nothing.'

by Patrick on Dec 16, 2004 3:54 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

No...
"nothing" was year.

With the "Big Four"...

And lost the season-ending series to the Angels...with the "Big Three"

Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 4:15 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

"Nothing" was LAST year
Billy, can we at least keep Byrnes????

by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 4:15 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

100% Agree with Nathan and BBgirl
Count down to spring training and here's hoping there are some GOOD changes.

by ak_A on Dec 16, 2004 7:13 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Let's Hope We See Him in the World Series...
...and beat him! So will our team be better off without him? No way, in terms of starting pitching. But if our bullpen, which has been accurately identified as the weak link, now has a proven arm that is a step up from Lehr, then with our depth perhaps we won't feel so bad going into the 6th through 9th innings.
   We will never forget Huddy's mental toughness, but concerns about his durabilty have been an issue. I don't think the A's perceive they have room to allow for a player, that if they invest largely in, to be a question mark in terms of durability. So whom do they keep of the BIG 3, Zito leads the way in terms of health, and if he rights himself this year, he may be the one.
   PS this brings back that sad childhood memory the day I opened the Sports section and read "Jackson Traded from A's to O's". Damn that hurts!

by Gerard on Dec 16, 2004 3:29 PM PST   0 recs

History
The A's have lost a lot of great players in their long history.  In my time its been Kell and Fox, Maris, Reggie, Catfish (that really hurt), and a lot more an oldtimer can't remember and, of course, to this very day.  You could damn well make a HOF line-up with the players they 'lost'.  The loss of all these players in some way related to lack of financial strength.  So that's the history and nothing is likely to change anytime soon.  So, if you want to be an A's fan you might just have to become accustomed to these 'losses'.  And it doesn't get any  easier!  

by PhillyAs on Dec 16, 2004 4:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

george kell
You remember when the A's had George Kell? Wow... I won't ask your age, but guess you aren't too worried about Social Security going bankrupt in 2039.  

by vk on Dec 16, 2004 4:48 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hell yes,
I'm worried.  I'll be 101 and a little hard of hearing, so won't make for a greeter at Wal-Mart!  So, you youngsters be sure to keep working real hard!  You don't want me packing your groceries!

by PhillyAs on Dec 16, 2004 5:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

the only way beane....
...scores on this is if he packages some or all of these dogs with byrnes or hatteberg or bradford or all them for a power bat.
it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 16, 2004 3:30 PM PST   0 recs

Hudson like Hunter leaves A's in tough situation
Remembering when Catfish Hunter left the A's for NY after Finley screwed up his contract is the same feeling I get now with Huddy going to Atlanta for substandard fare...here we got something after zero for Hunter...but the gut check I get now is still ugly.Beane may have fumbled here badly. Mulder had terrible last 2 months, Zito was .500 and Blanton unproven at this level. Huddy was steady, bulldog every outing.
 Did we just revert to late '70's form due to cash crunch? No new ballpark on horizon, selling off good, key players for nothing, owners who make questionable player decisions...is Finley still lurking around at the Colisuem?
Morada Mudshark

by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 3:32 PM PST   0 recs

Check Huddy's ERA in September...
and compare it to Zito's.

Hudson - 6.23 over 39 IP.
Zito - 4.54 over 37.2 IP

He was not a bulldog over the last month.  He was anything but.

Post All-Star - Zito had a 4.32 ERA compared to Hudson's 4.28.

I love Hudson, but he wasn't the bulldog down the stretch everyone thought he was.

by Blez on Dec 16, 2004 3:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Nope, Harden was...
...I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the more I think about September, the more sense this trade makes to me.

No matter how great Hudson is/was, it was pretty obvious that he was shot by October. A major-league season wears on everyone, but particularly a smallish pitcher who has to use every ounce of every thing from his body to be effective.

I think BB believed with all his heart that the Big 3 didn't have the right mix of "it" (whatever you determine "it" to be) to ever get past the first round of the playoffs. Last year made it even more obvious that this core wasn't going to make it all they way to the series. After 5 years of that, it was time to shake it up and move in a slightly different direction.

The kind of guys that BB is bringing in are "gamers", hard nosed guys with a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Yes, I know Hudson was one of those guys, but there was already a replacement with "guts" just waiting in the wings.

Rich Harden, we can't wait to watch you blossom into an absolute star, with bulldog guts and determination to boot. :-)

by nodaclu on Dec 16, 2004 4:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

so he had one bad september
so what the whole team had a bad september, what about the four septembers before that when huddy balled it up?  maybe you dont remember the last game of the season against texas in 2000 when huddy didnt let anyone get past first base and the a's won the division, but i do.  and enough of this stuff everyone's talking about huddy being shaky in the playoffs, the fact is he's the only one of the big three (rest in peace big three) that didnt lose a game 5 for us.  i find it hard to believe that anyone here could look me in the eye and tell me honestly that they wouldnt want huddy on the mound in a big game.  this trade makes us worse for 2005, so at the moment it sucks

by jnutts on Dec 16, 2004 6:28 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Apparentley you didn't see his Wed. night start...
against the Red Sox in their last series here. He opened the game by walking the bases loaded, got hit hard, and didn't last 3 innnings.

Don't over-exaggerate