Yesterday: End of an Oakland Era
Yesterday, all our troubles seemed so far away...
The Original Oakland Big Three are no more. It's the end of the Beatles of the East Bay. We're left with Harrison, Starr and McCartney to toe the slab.
Tim Hudson was a horse for the Oakland Athletics. A .700 winning percentage. A smaller man who worked hard on his craft, honed his pitching and made the best hitters in the American League look silly.
And now, he is in the National League, pitching close to his roots with the Atlanta Braves.
As I predicted, Billy Beane made a move when he felt the time was right.
I'm not shocked by the move because the A's got a good mix of players in return. Charles Thomas had a solid rookie year, despite his overmatched look in the playoffs. Juan Cruz is a solid bullpen addition to set up for Dotel. And Meyer is the gem of the deal. A top pitching prospect who is major league ready.
Who knows whether the quality of the players Billy is getting in return will match even a single season of performance from Tim Hudson, but the truth is that Billy could not wait until March 1st or even until the season started. Why? Because he could not take the chance that Tim Hudson would get hurt again and we'd lose a star, stud pitcher for nothing but draft picks.
Were there better deals out there? Only Billy and the rest of the front office knows. You never really know if Edwin Jackson was discussed until Billy himself says it.
The reality of our fandom is that this team needs to be a chameleon, adapting in order to survive.
But I will say once more that I am sad to see the end of an Oakland era. The Big Three are no more. The Fab Four never really had a chance to materialize.
I'll change and adapt with my team. No throwing the green and gold out for me. My daughter will still be at the Coliseum with me next season. And the season after that.
It doesn't mean that I'm not devastated to lose a talent like Tim Hudson. I just need to realize that instead of Hey Jude, we've got something else.
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Blez--this one does hurt
I love the A's and I hope that the "grit" from Kendall can make him a leader in that clubhouse, or we're in trouble.
by runtru1 on Dec 16, 2004 3:06 PM PST reply actions
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
by ucla kid on Dec 16, 2004 3:07 PM PST reply actions
i dunno
3 unprovens for huddy? how is that any better than unproven draft picks AND huddy for one more run?
It's not
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
comon now, look at it objectively
that is brutal. and wrong.
kenny williams still had fouke for one year and he traded him, strait up for .... Billy Koch. We don't get Hudson after next year. Too much money. Too much money for a 29yr, soon to be 30yr old pitcher, who breaks down occasionally.
We got 3 good players in return. Scouts and statheads like all three of the players. Thomas is dynamic. 4 triples in 238 at bats last year? he hits lefties and righties. He might not get any better, but he won't neccesarily get worse either. and a .813 OPS outfielder whose fielding (.993, RF 2.22) is superb. Oh yeah and he's cheap.
Dan Meyer has never posted an ERA higher than 3 in professional ball. Interested? He gives up a home run every 12 innings. Still not interested? go take a look at greg maddux's Minor league stats. then compare them with Meyer's. then get back to me on why you are not interested in the guy. Oh yeah and he's cheap.
Juan Cruz. Did someone say something about a reliever? hes only 26, has electric stuff. Oh yeah and he's cheap.
Anyone who says this is a bad trade needs to take a deep breath and come out of their Tim Hudson shrine and move to Atlanta. Beane diversified his assets because he was forced to. and because the market for quality starting pitching is so scarce (read, the whole dodgers tangent) he made a killing. we cheer for the organization, but I know that I will be cheering for all three of these guys to keep it up and make Billy look brilliant.
now here is my prediction, soon we'll be singing bye bye byrnesy.
by BaseballTao on Dec 16, 2004 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
Objectively speaking
you expect more?
you can't trade tim hudson for barry bonds. and even then, he would want a new deal closer to Arod's ridiculous fee. we got 3 players who can play in the big leagues. and for better or worse, and each of them will get better or worse, they fill holes on the squad for next year. we will be deeper. we will be better. and most importantly we get to keep those assets for longer than 2005.
by BaseballTao on Dec 16, 2004 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
Back up a step
Thomas is a 4th OF. He played well in his big league debut but what happens when the league has a book on him? Look at his minor league numbers. What do you see based on his past performance that makes you believe he's capable of being a starting outfielder? Because I don't see it and I've got a very good imagination.
Even though I said I was ready for this...
by BillybUcko on Dec 16, 2004 3:08 PM PST reply actions
Meyer may be the gem of the deal,
Cruz had a good year with the Cubs, then utterly collapsed, and then revived again under Leo Mazzone. Curt Young is no Leo Mazzone.
Thomas is worthless. I mean that literally: he's the kind of fourth outfielder you can pick up for near the minimum any time you want.
Without having any more inside information than anyone else, I can say with complete confidence that there was one better deal out there: keep Huddy, watch him light up his contract year, and take a shot at winning the damn pennant. The draft pick we would have then gotten wouldn't be as valuable as Meyer, Cruz and Thomas, but it wouldn't be substantially less valuable, either.
I can't believe that after watching Kielty &
IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON.
I truly think Billy also feels the risk of Hudson getting injured is high. So why not add three parts, addressing three specific needs on the team (a young pitcher, bullpen help and an outfield prospect who had a very good rookie season) while you still can.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 16, 2004 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
i wouldn't say worthless...
Agree
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
Too many words ....
What that should have said is, "he's a pitcher, and all kid pitchers are suspect."
Huddy's not a kid, Bazito's not a kid, Mulder's not a kid ... and they all struggled last year. Who struggled the least? the "kid pitcher", Rich Harden.
A draft pick (actually, two) would have been enormously less valuable. Even for the most effective teams, most draft picks are busts. Of the two picks we'd have gotten, it would be considered an above average draft if one of them ever got a sniff of the bigs. We've got three guys who are ready to contribute at the big league level - two of them with the potential to be stars.
Thomas won't be a superstar, but he did post an OPS of .813 as a rookie. That'd damn impressive. He's also started to develop a power stroke lately. He's a great addition.
As far as Cruz utterly collapsing - he was 22!!!! Twenty friggin two. Now he's twenty four (his 2005 age) and has a 3.99 era in 275 ML innings. What's not to like about that?
Cruz's age
by Patrick on Dec 16, 2004 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
just cracked a nice cold beer
i believe oakland goes to atlanta next yr.
expect an ass kickin'.
The A's Will Be in Atlanta
How Many Albums
There's a reason John Lennon is the idol.
The A's are not the same.
I'm going to the liquor store.
inevitable, i suppose....
Charles Thomas did have a good rookie season (as my good friend Hubie Brown would say, "ya gotta like the upside on this kid") and using Cruz as a bridge to Dotel is an improvement over last season...though I don't know if Octavio can reach the shutdown ability of Izzy, Foulke, etc.
Can someone give me a few details about Meyer? Is he on a par with Harden and Blanton regarding, ahem, "upside"?
by bakedzito on Dec 16, 2004 3:15 PM PST reply actions
More Blanton then Harden...
Harden is going to be one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball in 2006, and the best in 2007, bar none. This kid is special, and he's 22 years old. He's at a different level then the other two.
Btw...this is the second Dan Meyer the A's have had. The first Dan Meyer was a first baseman that came over from the mariners in the mid 1980's. He had calcium deposits in his neck and was always twisting and adjusting his neck in the batters box between every pitch.
Drove me nuts.
Let's hope this Dan Meyer works out a bit better. :-)
the original dan meyer
John Schuerholz looking like the front-runner for executive of the year...the thing that gets me is, the POTENTIAL of the three players gotten in return does not exceed Hudson's ability. Why couldn't Ricciardi have pulled the trigger on Hudson for Vernon Wells? (Rosenthal of TSN said Beane offered any of the Big Three for Wells and was denied...if I'm Toronto, I trade Vernon Wells for Tim Hudson or Mark Mulder, and as an A's fan I'd be much happier with Wells than a Mazzone reclamation project, a glorified Dave Roberts, and a pitching prospect who needs to be "able to command the fastball"...stop the Greg Maddux comparisons when that's the scouting report.
Fuckin' A, the Braves have quite a 1-2 punch in the rotation now
by Cutthemullet on Dec 16, 2004 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
Hudson in Toronto?
- Hudson pitching half his games on a fast carpet would get ugly fast. He no longer strikes much of anyone out, and inducing a ton of ground balls at the SkyDome is a good way to start giving up 11 hits every 9 innings.
- Toronto won't be able to sign him to a long contract, partly due to reason #1. What is one year of Hudson worth to Toronto when they'll get steamrolled by NY and Boston anyway? He gets them from 79 to 84 wins? So what?
- Wells is still largely potential: he's 25, has had one tremendous season and 3 slightly-better-than-average seasons. He's more of a sure thing than the prospects we got from ATL, but partly due to that we weren't gonna get him (and his 3 pre-FA years) away from Toronto for one year of Hudson giving up groundball singles to left and right start after start in the SkyDome. As far as Zito or Mulder are concerend in this trade, we'd have a gaping hole in the rotation this year without one of them, and and even bigger, cavernous hole in 2006 when Hudson signs with ATL as a free agent.
Dave Roberts???
As a rookie Thomas hit 7 homeruns and posted an .813 ops.
So, umm, what the fcuk are you talking about?
All pitching prospects, except Mark Prior and those who don't actually have a fastball (would you prefer some of them?) need to be "able to command the fastball" ... though it is suspicious that nothing you quoted put in doubt his current ability "to command the fastball." He's a good of a AAA prospect as you'll find.
Cruz isn't a Mazzone reclamation project. He had a combined 3.7 era as a rookie and a sophmore. He had an attrocious third year and he bounced back in his fourth. That's a pretty solid developmental curve. He has a nasty fastball and we've got him locked for the next three years for cheap.
calling me out
Now we turn to "what the fcuk are you talking about"...I have way too much pride not to respond to this. Granted, Cruz is no Scott Kamanickei (I may not even be close with the spelling, but I tried)or even, gulp, Chris Hammond (true Mazzone reclamation projects), but the guy's career was starting to parallel that of a former Brave top prospect: Bruce Chen. Let's just say if he has another year like the previous ones, instead of praising the development curve, we're thinking up humorous ways to say he's a bust. Let's face it, Mazzone as your pitching coach is a variable that must be controlled for, reverse-Coors Field-style. I twice saw Cruz get shelled at Wrigley, so maybe I'm also biased by anecdotal evidence, but the stats support the skepticism. But as my buddy pointed out, he can at the very least be a valuable bat off the bench. Wow, did I dare tell a joke, Devo?
Now to ex-Buffalo Bison Dave Roberts. Key word in there was glorified. Always seems to get overlooked. If you don't believe me, explain to me how Glorified G is not one of 33 songs on Pearl Jam's greatest hits. Anyway, clearly, Dave Roberts' lack of power is so extreme that he should not be compared to anyone except for like Otis Nixon. But were he to start, Charles Thomas would be one of the lightest-hitting OFs in the league. Obviously your reading is not sophisticated enough to sense a bit of healthy embellishment to further my point.
As for Meyer, I assumed from context you could deduce that "needing to locate his fastball" was an area that needed improvement...I also quote, uh, something I read, maybe on ESPN, maybe not, that said reviews around the league on Meyer are decidedly mixed.
Finally, inspired by a headline I saw back in the day when the Buffalo Sabres stole Alexei Zhitnik from the LA Kings:
Atlanta 7, Oakland 0
Cutthemullet 7, Devo 0
if you want to dispute either of those find me compelling evidence that trading for pitching prospects is ever a rational decision...I would like to see an analysis of all established star-for-prospect X...I'd estimate the amount of trades where production by the prospect(s) exceeds that of the star at around 10%. Pure guess, but you would think it would have been studied by now.
by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
one other note
by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Your reply to Devo
As for Meyer:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1948458
BA has said his control is top-notch. "Command of his fastball" is not an issue. As for the "mixed reviews" about two weeks ago I read in the SportingNews that one player personnel type wouldn't trade Baltimore's Erik Bedard for anyone on Oakland's pitching staff. You'll find mixed reviews on just about every player.
cutthemullet...
ahh the hits keep coming...
losing 4 straight Super Bowls, losing 4 straight 1st round playoff series 3-2, No Goal, Forward Lateral...as a sports fan, I cannot win.
For the record, in every post of yours I've read you come across as a complete idiot. It's OK for you to post, but don't let me see you.
See if you figure that one out. Crack open a cold one and salute yourself if you do.
by Cutthemullet on Dec 17, 2004 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
Now we probably know...
Of course I'll continue to root for my beloved Oakland A's. But I am very sorry to see Huddy go. I hope the A's don't come to regret this one.
Trade sucks
beane better spin this around in july for something.
by suggy on Dec 16, 2004 3:16 PM PST reply actions
Par for the course
I am no expert and am going with my faith in BB on this one. Who knows, maybe this isn't the end of this transaction. All I know is that BB has been more right than wrong.
Good luck to Tim. The Braves are getting a great pitcher, competitor and person. I am still very proud to be a fan of the Green and Gold.
Hear hear!
by Jeff in Seattle on Dec 16, 2004 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Wow
by tulanite on Dec 16, 2004 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Moneyballs, Good luck Huddy
It is time to gamble and replace the core with young cheap studs.
For Tim Hudson he is going to a great team, close to home and he gets to hit and run the bases - which he loves to do - it is good for him. It is good for the A's cuz they only see him if they make it to the WS and the odd interleague game. He is probably an instant favorite to win the NL Cy Young
Funny You Should Bring Up TLong,
He has occasional power, but nothing that allows you to put him anywhere near the middle of the line-up.
Except for one oddball year (2003) in the minors, he's never walked much, he's not good enough to play CF, he has a certain amount of speed which he's never learned to turn into stolen bases, and the managers of the teams he's played on don't seem to think he can bunt much, either.
And you have to wonder about his ability to handle pressure: he was strictly deer-in-the-headlights in the playoffs this year, and in almost exactly 500 professional plate appearances in 2004, he had one (1) sacrifice fly.
So, yeah, I think he's worthless. Not in the literal sense: the guy is good enough to make a major league roster. Only a tiny percentage of guys who ever pick up a glove can do that. But in major league terms, guys like him are a dime a dozen. He brings the A's nothing they couldn't get easily elsewhere.
I was going to mention that too...
But then he fell apart, for reasons I'm not sure of.
Still, I think it's the usual path for players to get better as they mature beyond their rookie year, and though Thomas is a little older than most, I think it's a harsh decision to write him off as a scrub immediately. Though I think it's equally foolish to presume he'll be a superstar. He did put up solid numbers, and who knows, if given a role here, he'll do well.
Thanks Rob Neyer on your assesment of Chucky T
Chucky T is much more patient, is a good guy to have in the clubhouse, based on Bobby Cox's comments. He has above average speed, plays very good D, and will probably develop more power. Give the dude 500 AB's and he might suprise people with better than Byrnsy numbers. He my post .290+ avg with 15-25 homers and 80rbi. He will have a better VORP than T Long too. Barf. I'll take that over what has been in the outfield the past couple of years.
He HATE's ME, because I'm Joe Morgan's #1 A's fan. Long live the greatest 2nd baseman maybe ever.
by Misfit on Dec 17, 2004 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
How do you come up with this stuff?
the talking prospect handbook
Talking?
Grover are you talking to yourself again?
Seriously, though. I'm a lot more optimistic about, well, everything that has to do with the A's than most everybody, Grover included ... and that holds true in regards to Thomas.
He does make a good point, though, that his OPS was inflated because of all those IBB, I presume because he was batting 8th, and they wanted to pitch to the pitcher with two outs and runners on. His OPS would have been quite a bit lower if you took those out. (About 50 points)
His career k:bb rate in the high minors and the fact that his upturn in production started in 2003 - plus his spectacular defense, and, apparently great clubhouse attitude - makes me optimistic.
I'm trying to keep an open mind on Thomas
But to give him a starting job outright? No way.
Totally reasonable ...
I would
Besides, Swisher is still a rookie and he did struggle a bit against RH pitching. Thomas the 4th gives the A's a little cushion in case that continues to be the case.
Is Brynes on the way out??
Will Thomas take Byrnes' place in the OF at lower cost? Should the A's pony up to keep Byrnes??? What does AN think??
pitches per start
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 16, 2004 10:42 PM PST up reply actions
Rudifan said it all.
by mitche82865 on Dec 16, 2004 3:26 PM PST reply actions
Keep Byrnsie!
by mitche82865 on Dec 16, 2004 3:27 PM PST reply actions
Amen to that!
by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Which World Series....
Before you jump all over me, I'm a huge A's fan. Part of the original AN. I'm even a Hudson fan.
But the truth is that, the formula and personnel wasn't getting it done.
Time to move on. It's sad to see Hudson go. But its time to turn the page.
You know what?
I will miss Hudson, but he is not the perfect player that everyone is making him out to be. Do not forget either the re-occuring injury or the infamous bar brawl in Boston.
I will toast to Hudson. Thanks, Bulldog; there's not many better.
And I look forward to the new design of the A's with Mulder and Zito getting back on track.
by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
nothing to show?
That's not nothing. I'm afriad we may learn the true meaning of "nothing" in 2005.
by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
hmmm
What is that based on?
by Patrick on Dec 16, 2004 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
No...
With the "Big Four"...
And lost the season-ending series to the Angels...with the "Big Three"
by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
"Nothing" was LAST year
by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
100% Agree with Nathan and BBgirl
Let's Hope We See Him in the World Series...
We will never forget Huddy's mental toughness, but concerns about his durabilty have been an issue. I don't think the A's perceive they have room to allow for a player, that if they invest largely in, to be a question mark in terms of durability. So whom do they keep of the BIG 3, Zito leads the way in terms of health, and if he rights himself this year, he may be the one.
PS this brings back that sad childhood memory the day I opened the Sports section and read "Jackson Traded from A's to O's". Damn that hurts!
History
by PhillyAs on Dec 16, 2004 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
george kell
by vk on Dec 16, 2004 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
Hell yes,
by PhillyAs on Dec 16, 2004 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
the only way beane....
Hudson like Hunter leaves A's in tough situation
Did we just revert to late '70's form due to cash crunch? No new ballpark on horizon, selling off good, key players for nothing, owners who make questionable player decisions...is Finley still lurking around at the Colisuem?
by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 3:32 PM PST reply actions
Check Huddy's ERA in September...
Hudson - 6.23 over 39 IP.
Zito - 4.54 over 37.2 IP
He was not a bulldog over the last month. He was anything but.
Post All-Star - Zito had a 4.32 ERA compared to Hudson's 4.28.
I love Hudson, but he wasn't the bulldog down the stretch everyone thought he was.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 16, 2004 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
Nope, Harden was...
No matter how great Hudson is/was, it was pretty obvious that he was shot by October. A major-league season wears on everyone, but particularly a smallish pitcher who has to use every ounce of every thing from his body to be effective.
I think BB believed with all his heart that the Big 3 didn't have the right mix of "it" (whatever you determine "it" to be) to ever get past the first round of the playoffs. Last year made it even more obvious that this core wasn't going to make it all they way to the series. After 5 years of that, it was time to shake it up and move in a slightly different direction.
The kind of guys that BB is bringing in are "gamers", hard nosed guys with a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Yes, I know Hudson was one of those guys, but there was already a replacement with "guts" just waiting in the wings.
Rich Harden, we can't wait to watch you blossom into an absolute star, with bulldog guts and determination to boot. :-)
so he had one bad september
by jnutts on Dec 16, 2004 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
Apparentley you didn't see his Wed. night start...
Don't over-exaggerate.
Agreed
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
Best of the Big 3
It's easy to base an evaluation of a player on performance, because we tend to think in terms of more recent experience. Which is probably why the market seemed so much hotter for Huddy than, say, for Mulder. But perhaps one year's stats aren't the best comparison. Maybe Rich, Mark and Barry can pick up the slack.
Seriously?
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
good player for Huddy
How do you know they couldn't?
One good player for one year isn't what they wanted - they had that. They wanted a bunch of good or potentially great players who could all be locked in for multiple years at extremely low salaries. That's what they got.
If they'd wanted one good proven player I'm sure they could have had their pick. Heck, they probably could've traded for Randy Johnson straight up. Would've been a really dumb deal for them too.
by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
finally
everybody has been bitching about not getting the sexy name player, but billy's not looking to pick those players up because most of them have multimillion dollar salaries. the three new guys will contribute to building a young core that will keep us in the playoff hunt for another five years. and i bet harden, mulder and zito are this year as good as any hudson, mulder, zito season ever was.
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 16, 2004 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
WHY...
by KINGKONGKINGMAN on Dec 16, 2004 3:39 PM PST reply actions
Keeping Hudson too much of a gamble
Don't even go there
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
There, I did your work for you. 27K A GAME. Big Games? How about Mecir's finest hour, last Sat of the season? 42K!!!! Don't give me that kind of excuse. 2.2 million tickets sold. The A's aren't poor.
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
A small defense...
How much did those 2.2 million pay on average to see an A's game?
The total revenue from those fans is where the truth lies. The A's have to sell far too many tickets at $2 a pop on Wednesdays to pull those kinds of numbers. Even without that, the A's have some of the lowest ticket prices in MLB. They have to. They can't exactly charge Giants prices to get people to come and see the beautiful cement structure in the outfield, and a September's worth of watching major league baseball on grass so tore up that I would let my 8 year old play on it for fear of her getting hurt.
Like everything in life, there is always a story behind the raw numbers that gives a fuller explanation.
with the loss of huddy
i remember from moneyball i think, that there was pitching, scoring runs, and preventing runs.
we have evolved from great hitting and great pitching to great pitching and great defense... where are we now?
do we kill 'em w/ pitching?
do we rule the 7th/8th/9th?
do we kill 'em w/ hitting?
do we kill 'em w/ defense?
or is it that we are now DECENT (not great)enough in all areas to compete?
what kind of team
by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
Wow
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
worst offense???
Where did that come from?! When did we have the worst offense in the AL West, by what measure?
In total runs scored, we were third last year - next to last, but not the worst. But the A's play in an extreme pitcher's park. Look at runs scored on the road, which equalizes parks fairly well, and we were second.
by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
I can't find the stats
Bottom line, we weren't better than Texas or Anaheim offensively last year, and with Seattle getting Sexson and Beltre to knock in Ichiro, I really doubt we will have a better offense than them next year.
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
worst offense
If you mean compared to a few days ago, who knows and who cares? The teams aren't done dealing and building their rosters, so what a team looks like on some random day in the middle of winter doesn't mean anything. I mean, a few weeks ago our only catcher was Adam Melhuse, how good was that?
Last year we had a pretty good offense, arguably second or third in the division depending on how you measure. Next year's offense will probably be better: we've upgraded at catcher and second; Swisher will probably do as well in RF as Dye did last year, and the other positions are (so far) unchanged. But as I said there may be more deals to come so we don't really know.
So we had a good offense, and we're improving it. What more can you ask from a team that obviously doesn't have the money for guys like Beltre and Beltran?
by matthias on Dec 16, 2004 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Ditto
by baseballgirl on Dec 16, 2004 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
hmm
but now that the pitching is getting expensive (see hudson and to a larger extent any pitcher on the market this year) for the a's, greatness in 2 of the three core aspects of the game are out of our price range. where do we go from here?
The new Moneyball
What they suggest to me is that good hitting is still good, but power hitting is overvalued. Kotsay started the trend. He did get a few homers, but he's still not the sort of big basher that the Angels and Mariners are spending all their money on. Kendall, Ginter, and now Charles Thomas are all in the same style -- they hit well, but they don't hit hard.
What we're putting together now is a lot of good hitters but hardly anyone with a lot of pop. It looks to me like that's the new Beane strategy. I see a lot of fans on AN who say we should trade it all for one big bat. Me, I don't know which is better, but if I have to choose between BB's judgment and that of the fans here, no offense, but I'll put my trust in BB.
P.S. What was that diary a few days ago about no African-Americans on the team? I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it looks like BB has filled that gap, too.
I think it's the fifth choice
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
yeah
Wasn't that the Yankees formula in 98?
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
'98
Maybe better than decent?
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Huddy
I do understand that Huddy's demand that a contract be offered before March made the situation untenable, and perhaps these 3 unknowns (to me) will make the deal worthwhile. It may be time to pass the mantle of leadership to Chavez, who's not going anywhere. I'm still concerned about the quality of pitching trades...and of the pitcher coaching since Peterson's departure.
The Braves have some magic. Look at Russ Ortiz' season. Hopefully, Huddy will have the same.
Sharks fans may compare the situation to the trade of Owen Nolan, who, though not the talent or leader that Huddy has been, still exemplified the grit and heart of the team. Fans wondered who would step up and how the team would fare. They had their best season ever.
Sure would be nice to give the guy the send off he deserves. Raise a glass to one of the best.
by kimnjerry on Dec 16, 2004 3:58 PM PST reply actions
Nice Sharks Analogy...
Nice analogy, now, let's see if it works.
by secret ASian man on Dec 16, 2004 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
CALM DOWN!!!!!!!!!!
Surprise Surprise. Even with Dotel and Durazo getting 4 each and Byrnes getting 2 Million we probably have about 3-4 million to spend.
My guess is that Byrnes or Hatteberg will be traded and we will have 5-6 million to spend some where.
Hopefully on a right handed bat but we will see.
Deep Breaths folks we have lost players before.
Freeing up cash
by Jeff in Seattle on Dec 16, 2004 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
Ordonez...Exactly
6 Million Guarenteed another 2 in incentives.
Definitely
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
on a lighter note
by MarkKot on Dec 16, 2004 4:22 PM PST reply actions
What I like to know is....
by Big Green on Dec 16, 2004 4:34 PM PST reply actions
Ordonez is with Boras , ?
by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 4:35 PM PST reply actions
It's Scott
by Jeff in Seattle on Dec 16, 2004 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
The word is
time to sell the farm, ma!
Patience
In July 1998 I lived in Seattle when the Mariners traded Randy Johnson for 3 prospects. Everyone in Seattle screamed. The three prospects were Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama. None of them is the Big Unit, but Garcia and Guillen are solid players and Halama was generally good for Seattle. I'd say that if Thomas Cruz and Meyer turn out for us like Garcia, Guillen and Halama did for Seattle, we're better off than getting a compensation draft pick.
Trust Billy, let him do his job.
by DrewB on Dec 16, 2004 4:44 PM PST reply actions
Moneyball ruling on the trade
- "No matter how successful you are, change is always good. There can never be a status quo. When you have no money, you can't afford long-term solutions, only short-term ones. You have to always be upgrading. Otherwise, you're fucked."
- "The day you say you have to do something, you're screwed. Because you are going to make a bad deal. You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price."
- "Know exactly what every player in baseball is worth to you."
- "Know exactly who you want and go after him. (Never mind who they say they want to trade you.)"
- Every deal you do will be publicly scrutinized by subjective opinion. Not everyone believes that they know everything about the personal computer. But everyone who ever picked up a bat thinks he knows baseball. To do this well, you have to ignore the newspapers."
We shall see if this deal followed his own rules, but I imagine that 3 and 4 are the ones most likely to have been broken. (Maybe 2 also)
by jumperjh on Dec 16, 2004 4:59 PM PST reply actions
heh
by Cutthemullet on Dec 16, 2004 10:50 PM PST up reply actions
After trading Johnson in 1998...
They took off in 2001, with only Garcia of those three players making a really useful contributions.
Its about choices & options & money
I don't think the A's are going to be better without Hudson. But they only would have had him for 1 year. They couldn't afford his free agent value, even with a hometown discount. As I understand it Meyer was the no. 1 pitching prospect in the Braves organization. In 2006-2007 ha may be as good as Harden was last year. That's worht a lot more than a compensation draft pick.
by DrewB on Dec 17, 2004 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
Sign after '05
by oaklandjoe on Dec 16, 2004 5:19 PM PST reply actions
No
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
why?
by rickeytime on Dec 16, 2004 5:22 PM PST reply actions
Conference Call
He even said that he would have HAD to deal Huddy if the Kendall deal didn't go down. This guy must have something up his sleeve......
I think you could have done this deal with Zito and gotten a pretty good hometown discount from Huddy in 2006, I suspect. I guess we'll never know.
This is tougher than I thought it would be
I was "trying" to prepare myself for this day, but it's worse than I thought it would be.
Huddy will be missed. I wish him all the best in the NL. :(
My feelings exactly
I think, in reflection this morning, that the guys Beane got from the Braves are a semi-decent package (although I agree with Grover that we probably should have been able to squeeze more out of someone for Huddy, esp. by giving another team an extension-negotiating window).
But I wasn't prepared for how bad it makes me feel.
well at least peter G makes me feel better
by theroadrunner on Dec 16, 2004 6:12 PM PST reply actions
Nice words by Gammons
ESPN's Buster Olney is not as nice ...
"From 2000-2004, the Athletics won about 65 percent of the games started by Hudson, Mulder and Zito, and when anybody else has pitched, their winning percentage is about .530. Now Oakland moves into a new era, without one member of the Big Three. In trading Hudson, the Athletics seemed to get three decent players -- but not one sure-fire, superstar prospect, and that's a surprise considering Hudson's current marketability. Cruz has now been traded twice and has a 3.99 ERA pitching over four big-league seasons, Thomas seemed to come out of nowhere in '04, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus on Meyer yet; Baseball America rated him as the eighth-best prospect in the International League last year, and he was a No. 1 pick in the 2002 draft. "
by NativeOaklander on Dec 16, 2004 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
i feel better too....
His article also refreshed my memory about Huston Street, the kid who tore up the AZ Fall League this year. If Dotel falters, I think Street becomes the stopper.
by bakedzito on Dec 16, 2004 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
You Don't Have To Root
Some posters wouldn't be happy if BB had traded for Barry Bonds or Albert Pujols. BB does what he can with what he has. The A's have been a contending team for half a decade with no money. I want to see Theo Epstein or Brian Cashman run a team on a $55M payroll.
by rsquared on Dec 16, 2004 6:27 PM PST reply actions
My dad always said...
But there is one big positive to this trade that no-one has mentioned:
TBS
We will be able to see Huddy pitch EVERY game.
Go get em' Huddy.
Hitting pitchers
Anyone know?
Other than Babe Ruth?
Tom Seaver, Fernando and Greg Maddox
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 17, 2004 12:02 PM PST up reply actions
Atlanta is solid with Pitching Staff Now
Atlanta will be loaded for bear with Kolb closing and Smoltz in rotation again along with Huddy. Kiss Mets ($53 for broken Pedro, I think not thank you) and Phillies seasons good by.
Atlanta is odds on NL favorite now with Bobby Cox- a real manager at helm..not Macha (wish he had gone to Boston instead of Francona).
Happy Holidays Atlanta you got a big gift from BB our resident genuis.....
by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 6:50 PM PST reply actions
Macha and Francona are the same
Bobby Cox is the best manager bar none. Better than Joe "fantasy baseball" Torre. Cox has clout (no Giles Beane), best sidekick Leo Mazzone (Jaret Wright recent grad), and has so much knowledge.
by suggy on Dec 16, 2004 7:18 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry about the spelling I'm pissed
by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 6:53 PM PST reply actions
Atlanta jerseys?
by DC in WC on Dec 16, 2004 7:45 PM PST reply actions
Not a bad idea.
Giants/Marlins see Dontrelle
Giants/Braves see Huddy
I might get the "t-shirt jersey" with Huddy's number screenprinted on the back. Too borke to buy something that expensive.
by secret ASian man on Dec 16, 2004 7:51 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 8:34 PM PST up reply actions
My 2 cents worth (sadly, you get what you pay for)
2. Though it's more comforting to find fault in Hudson now than it was before he was traded, I just can't agree with any of the characterizations of his inability to win big games, etc. From his rookie year straight on through, Huddy wanted the ball in big games, and he consistently gave the A's "ace-level" big-game efforts long before he was experienced enough to warrant ace status. No one does it 100% of the time, but Hudson's track record--including playoff starts--is damn good. That includes his one inning at Boston in game 4, before he left due to injury; it was as dominating an inning as I've seen (which made it all the more excruciating to watch Steve Sparks try to get the A's over the hump).
I wish Huddy, and the A's, well.
If we keeped Hudson...
That is around 9 million that can keep. It not fun dealing with the money but it sadly is what counts. Or at least for most players...ok maybe God told Pedro to be a Met and the 53 million was a throw in.
Keilty can you say non-tender?
Lost Bobleheads...
Miggy...gone
Ramon...gone
Zito...still there
Mulder...still there
by secret ASian man on Dec 16, 2004 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
Then There Were Three
the little 3
Ok seriously, this is all very hard for me especially after ripping the Mets decision to get Pedro yesterday.
Hearing of the speculation of the LA deal, Edwin and the 2nd baseman, I was ready to accept that and ALMOST elated, we would have aquired a STUD pitcher and a pretty solid 2nd base prospect, which was needed.
Instead we got Jones,(who I tried to look at like another Justice for Atlanta since they are kinda rebuilding)
Meyer-He may be good, but I have not heard any real hype around him to warrant being the Jewel of a deal for Tim Hudson...bottom line. Plus, seriously do we really need another pitching prospect? Even with the Big 3 our pitching could not get it done, we needed explosive bats at the right spots..so to say that this dude might ever be better then Huddy is hogwash. At least let one of our own farmhands be a bust, ya know?
Cruz-Isn't he another baby wanna be Pedro like Ortiz on ANA? I do think he will help stabilize our bullpen, maybe a spot start, so we will see, we do have to fill Rhodes spot. And Ginter is the 2nd baseman we were trying to land anyway.
But as I sit here in the cold winter of NJ, I am both disappointed and excited as to what this deal will mean in the long run...Life will go on..I will be overweight, hate the yankees, and somewhere in this we will realize that these 3 are much better then getting a compensation
pick for the Original leader of our current A's team. alas..sigh....Tim Hudson is gone for these Little 3
by YanksGoDownOnMe on Dec 16, 2004 8:14 PM PST reply actions
Maybe its time for new ownership or new city
2) Move to San Jose/Sacramento and get down to being a franchise that we deserve in Northern California with quality stadium (40,000)
This seasonal exodus of quality players (BB sat on his hands for Giambi and Tejada and we got ziltch- why?)has put other franchises in contention and we as loyal A's fans get what?
Macha's non leadership, Hoffman and Schott's ownership with no drawing power at Raiders stadium? Time for them to show up and either get new stadium or sell and move the team.
by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 8:41 PM PST reply actions
Jennifer
No, I'm out...
I wonder if Huddy, Frankie Frank, and Izzy are going to go on hunting trips with Chipper Jones.... Hey! Maybe I can see them on the Outdoor Channel hunting in the Adirondack Mountains! That would be fun..... (rolls eyes)
Don't ask me how I know Chipper Jones is on the Outdoor Channel. That's a painful part of my life. This part is now, too.
Moving on... Huddy was December on my A's calendar. It's now January in my house.... too painful.... need hugs...
NO NO NO
love ya BB
by YanksGoDownOnMe on Dec 16, 2004 9:02 PM PST reply actions
What's wrong with the Net?
Frankly, I'd be pretty sad to get a new stadium if it means the price of a ticket doubles (which we all know it will because the rent at the Net is dirt cheap).
Yeah really
The Giants have about 5k fans at every game who care about baseball. The rest are their for fathead mcroids and the stadium. Fathead is gonna retire soon, and then they won't have nearly the attendance they do now.
If the A's won a series, they could easily sway 80% of the causal fans in the bay area.
by RichardP on Dec 16, 2004 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
The Trade
by Dago on Dec 16, 2004 9:48 PM PST reply actions
Belmar New Jersey
by YanksGoDownOnMe on Dec 16, 2004 10:40 PM PST reply actions
The Lost A's of 1999
Seattle news....
Of course, the mention was right after the one of the M's signing Beltre where they showed him hitting HR's and making a spectacular defensive play.
Hows that for some media-biased bs?
Probabilities
Being a general manager is no better than betting in Vegas. The only control that Billy has over the outcome of the season is to place his best bet based on the odds available to him, for this season and later down the road. He has no choice but to play the best odds that he can. Large market teams play the short odds; that is, to lay the big money on big-name free agents for the immediate returns. They can worry about next year when next year comes. Small market teams, however, must play the long odds with potential stars for the next couple of years because they can't put down enough money to win big on the short odds. The long odds are to go with a large number of unproven players with a lot of potential instead of a small number of proven, major league ready players and a smorgasbord of nobodys.
One of these years, Billy is going to roll seven. All it will take is half of the unknowns from the given year putting up serious numbers. It may be this year or the next; as an A's fan, I can only believe that this year the world series comes to Oakland after breakout seasons from Huston Street, Joe Blanton, Nick Swisher, and Dan Meyer. Hell, that's why Billy stayed in Oakland. He wants to have the bragging rights associated with bringing the world championship to a small market team.
Even if the A's fizzle instead of explode, I'll still be going to as many games as I can. It is more fun to root for a gangly crew of unprovens and undervalueds than any group of high-money all-stars winning it all (David gloats in eternity for one victory. Goliath was a long time champion forever remembered for getting bitch slapped with a slingshot).
PS. I tipped a couple of snifters of Knob Creek beyond the normal tonight for Timmy. I look forward to seeing him smack the ball out of the park to win a NLDS.
PPS. I'm also stoked to see Huddy go to Atlanta because I grew up watching the Braves with my great-grandmother (rip). I was a Braves fan before they started their 13 straight division championships and lost interest when 1) my great grandmother died and 2) the Braves started winning. Who-ride on pac-bell this year.
by deadmeat on Dec 17, 2004 12:40 AM PST reply actions
sad
Huddy being drafted by the A's was the reason I started following them again (I was at Auburn the same time he was). I'm really sad to see him go. I will, however, be able to watch him pitch a lot more now, since I now live in his new city. I can't wait for the three games the A's play here, I'll be the confused freak with a Braves Huddy jersey and my big A's foam #1 finger (from my one and only trip to the coliseum) rooting for a no hitter from Huddy but a few errors in the field causing the Braves to lose. :(
I am not a believer in Charles Thomas. I've seen him play, and I hate to say this, but he always reminded me of a Terrance Long clone. Maybe a bit quicker and a bit more patient, but very Long-esque, and that scares me. Cruz is great, and has continued improving. Meyer is an unknown at the MLB level. To me, those three aren't worth Hudson. I really hope Beane has more on the way.
For now, pass the tissues.
by Eric in Atlanta on Dec 17, 2004 4:46 AM PST reply actions
What does THIS mean????
Perhaps his A's life had to end like this. Perhaps Hudson wanted it this way. Publicly, he kept his bad vibes to himself, as all leaders should. But occasionally to clubhouse dwellers, Hudson would let his frustration seep out. He perceived that the A's showed more love and admiration for Mulder and Zito. And so many times after leaving a game ahead on the scoreboard, Hudson saw his "W" erased. In 2002 alone, he left with the lead in eight of his no-decisions, and the bullpen blew the saves.
Does anyone remember hearing anything about this? And how can Mark Purdy write something like that and not give an explanation? I can't imagine Beane favoring Mulder and Zito over Hudson...and I know the players loved him. It will be interesting to see if Urban addresses this in "Aces" but I hope it's not true.
AP Says Randy Johnson Is On the Way to NYY...
The A's have no business in the American League.
If you get rid of....
- Yankees
- Mets
- Angels
- Red Sox
- Mariners (maybe)
If we think we're feeling bad, you might want to check with the Dodgers fans to see how they're dealing with the loss of Beltre AND Green.
Take those two out of what was already a slightly anemic offense, and I sure feel worse for Dodgers fans and DePo then I do for A's fans and Beane right now.
Trading with the Braves
I think Beane is finished with regards to the rotation, and is prepared to go with Blanton and Meyer.
re: Charles Thomas
There will always be a big 3
by Corpsegrinder on Dec 17, 2004 9:55 AM PST reply actions

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