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Hudson On the Block?

Oakland_tiny by Blez on in News

It appears as though Tim Hudson's name is going to be tossed about in trade conversations over the next several weeks.

And you know what?  It's a smart move.  At least to start feeling the Tim Hudson market out.

The A's are unlikely to keep Hudson because frankly, he's outperformed the scope of the franchise.  By that, I mean, that he's too expensive for the A's to keep without hanging most of their entire budget on two players, Chavez and now Hudson.

So, while the Newark Star-Ledger is claiming that Hudson is on the block for Posada, and the Boston Herald is claiming that Hudson could be considered for Trot Nixon, the truth is that Hudson would likely be gone after this year any way.  

Billy Beane is not stupid enough to trade a pitcher of Hudson's caliber unless he feels like the chances to resign the stud righty are remote at best.  Beane has always been rumored to love Nixon and if he can somehow also get Kevin Youkilis included in the deal, then I think Beane seriously contemplates it.

Mulder and Zito, on the other hand, have struggled just enough to hurt their perceived value.  Zito has been inconsistent since the 2002 Cy Young season and Mulder has struggled with injuries at key times, not to mention his stumbling finish this year.

I'm not saying this because I want it to happen.  I don't think you can ever get enough for a pitcher of Hudson's caliber.  

Hudson may not be on the block.  It might just be some overzealous East Coast media types starting these rumors (surprise, surprise!), but trading anyone on the team, especially someone entering his final year of a contract, is a very real possibility so we better get ourselves mentally ready for a deal like this.

Next week there will be general manager meetings in Florida, and if you think the rumors are flying now, just you wait.  It's only the beginning.

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Huddy
As much as I absolutely love Huddy, if he doesn't sign, I'd like to see him traded. Billy should be able to get quite a bit for him, and I'm tired of our guys going away as free agents for only draft picks.

(I know, I know, we've gotten good players that way, but for once, let's get something for one of our stars NOW.)

by Kelly on Nov 3, 2004 9:40 AM PST   0 recs

All Three Gone by '07
Blez, very sensible and well presented thoughts.

I think that at this point we have to prepare ourselves for the fact that all members of the Big Three will be playing for other teams in '07.

With the farm system fairly well stocked after several years of productive drafts, our needs right now probably skew toward AAA/MLB-ready talent. Which is another good argument for trading Hudson rather than stockpiling yet more draft picks.

Two years from now, though, Mulder and Zito will probably be better let go for draft picks.

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2004 9:49 AM PST   0 recs

Hudson in Bean town
   TH for Trot Nixon is interesting speculation at best at this point. Nixon made 4.5M last year so maybe he fits the budget for 2005. It just hurts a little to consider Hudson leaving vs Mulder or Zito(Any one of them leaving at this point is painful).
   Stick The Bullog in Boston's rotation and just watch The Boss flip over that one. Frankly I could care less about Boston's or NY's "problems" this off-season. I just hope that if BB pulls the trigger on a trade, that we'll all call him brilliant next October.

by Gerard on Nov 3, 2004 9:52 AM PST   0 recs

Actually...
Trot Nixon is set to make $6.5 million next year and he's a left-handed hitter.

by Kelly on Nov 3, 2004 9:57 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

dugoutdollars site
Says Nixon is owed 7.5 million in both 05 and 06.

by grover on Nov 3, 2004 11:46 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hmmm
I got the $6.5 from the Unofficial MLB site. Well at least we have a ballpark figure.

by Kelly on Nov 3, 2004 12:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Salary
6.5 is what he is owed.
7.5 is figure against the salary cap.

by novaoakland on Nov 4, 2004 11:58 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Contenders
My main problem with trading Hudson now is the fact that the teams that are willing to ante up for Hudson are contenders.  This brings up two issues:  first, the real fact that watching Huddy blank us next year in the playoffs would be more than my heart could bear.  Second and more importantly, getting real value for Hudson means getting good, young (cheap!) players in return, something Boston and NY cannot offer.  I don't want to see Tim traded for someone who will be priced out of our reach in 1-2 seasons.  Best bet would be to hope and pray for an extension.

by Doug on Nov 3, 2004 9:56 AM PST   0 recs

not just young or cheap!
Don't mis-understand how Moneyball works!

Young and cheap are how it goes often!

The operative word though is "under-valued"!

Case in point is Kotsay.

   Kotsay is neither young nor cheap!

   -but he was undervalued by San Diego!

   Turned out to be a 'poster boy' case for Beane and Moneyball.

2nd case in point:  Durazo!

   not young but was cheap!

     -was undervalued by Arizona!

The list goes on ... Foulke ... Isringhausen ...

by Bleed Green on Nov 3, 2004 10:06 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Young and cheap
My point was that the most value the A's could get for Huddy would be good young players that the a's can control for another few years.  The problem with finding undervalued older players is that once you have proven they have value, their price skyrockets.  Foulke and Isringhausen left for free agency dollars, and how many people out there think we will able to afford Kotsay after next year?  If we have to trade hudson, I'd rather get players that are going to be around for a few seasons.  

by Doug on Nov 3, 2004 3:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Normally so! -but for the '05 Yanks ... maybe not!
Normally I would agree with you on young and cheap.

I see an exception 'brewing' against normal ...

   and it's the 2005 Yankees

This is what I alluded to in my posting of Moneyball and small payroll (below)
Having just been humilated (in numerous ways) by their grudge rivals I see some big changes coming for the Bronx Bombers.

   Problem for Cashman is the same one that kept him from getting Johnson in July ...
      -he's got no prospects to deal!

      -he does have cash !
         ( this is going to be one of the fun things for this off-season !!!  How much is The Boss willing to spend! )

      -he's also got players they don't want:
         -Vasquez (word out of NY is the nickname for Vasquez is "Javier Weaver"  -that's rough! )
         -Brown
         -Giambi
         -maybe even Loaiza!

    Can Billy get value out of Yankee cast-offs ?

       You Bet!

   

by Bleed Green on Nov 4, 2004 11:08 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Most of the yankees front office
thinks Vasquez could be their Number 1 starter in the near future. The only reason he goes anywhere is cuz the boss has the final say.
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 4, 2004 12:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

maybe we can con 'em...
Hudson for Vazquez+cash(like half of his salary paid)? done. as painful as that would be to see, having vazquez locked up cheap in the rotation would  be way too good of a dael to pass up

by rickeytime on Nov 4, 2004 6:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

agreed
Seeing huddy pitching for another team in the playoffs would be a bummer........

by AlwaysSweatin on Nov 3, 2004 3:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Definitely
I agree with you Gerard. I just don't want to see Huddy back in the playoffs with the red sox, winning the MVP of the world series, all that stuff. The Sox are my new team of hate, i dont want to see one of our best and favorite players go to a team like the red sox. After this year, i dont want them to be able to re sign anybody. I know that would be a great deal, it's just, to me it feels like trading Huddy to the angels....
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 3, 2004 9:56 AM PST   0 recs

of Moneyball and small payroll
Huddy and Chavy are the highest valued players Billy has.

Based on Moneyball, the payroll and the team needs it comes as no surprize to see Huddy rumors flying around out there.

Their is 'hope' in all of this for the AN ...
  -as much as we love Huddy and don't want to see him leave ...
  -Steinbrenner is not going to sit still ...
    -Cashman is pretty much limited to the players he has and however many truckloads of
      cash The Boss will tell him to use ...

  If the Yankees really want Hudson then Billy basically has them over a barrel!

   -this could be fun!  ;-)

by Bleed Green on Nov 3, 2004 9:59 AM PST   0 recs

CAN'T....
...TRADE HUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ElephantCrew Rules

by bigelephant on Nov 3, 2004 10:02 AM PST   0 recs

Now, or Later
Here's the other big question: if Beane is going to trade Hudson, then does it make more sense to do it in the offseason, or wait until the trade deadline for greater leverage?

I agree with Doug that the Yankees and Red Sox don't exactly present outstanding trade options. I'm thinking that pushing them down to the wire mid-season might be the best way to extract quality AAA/MLB-caliber players and/or lower-level prospects, get the trading partner to pick up significant payroll, and any cash as well.

The one argument against a mid-year deal is whether Hudson already has a FA destination in mind. If he's unlikely to sign with Boston or NY (or wherever else he's traded), then of course we'd be likely to get less in a mid-season deal.

I still think Huddy's ultimate destination is Atlanta. Whether the Braves are the best trading partner is another question.

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2004 10:07 AM PST   0 recs

Hudson to Atlanta for....
Chipper Jones perhaps?
Shut up Joe Morgan!

by treble1313 on Nov 4, 2004 3:20 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

chipper
where would he play?  they threw him back to 3b because of his offensive decline in lf.

by ucla kid on Nov 4, 2004 3:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

He can play LF
He did hit 30 HR and a .362 OBP in 2004.

Jones in LF, Kotsay in CF, Swisher/Kielty in RF.

Byrnes can be used to fill any needs.  We can get a decent infielder, or a decent bullpen guy, or even a 4/5th starter for Eric.

Shut up Joe Morgan!

by treble1313 on Nov 4, 2004 3:29 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

They moved him to 3B
because they have lots of OF prospects.  
Shut up Joe Morgan!

by treble1313 on Nov 4, 2004 3:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I actually think a good destination
for Hudson would be the Reds.  They need a starting pitcher to anchor that staff.  It gets him to the NL (for at least a year) and the Reds have a few players the A's could use.

by Blez on Nov 3, 2004 10:11 AM PST   0 recs

But do the Reds really need him?
Sure, they could use him, but I don't think they need him.

I said this in a trade-scenario thread somewhere upstream, but I'll say it again: in what universe are the Reds contenders in '05?

Linder is a cheaper and more bastardly cheap bastard than Schott (our Schott, that is, not Cinti's Schott). No chance they'll sign him. And I don't know that even they could be convinced of the wisdom of a 1-year rental at the expense Beane would demand.

Now, the Cardinals would be a sensible location for Hudson next year; perhaps a three-way among Oakland, Cincinnati, and St. Louis?

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2004 10:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

You absolutely read my Mind!!
In fact, im going to start a diary over this....
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 4, 2004 10:18 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

as a reds fan
the reds round out my big 3 of my fav teams that i've loved since i was little.

and trust me on this the reds have no ace's

they could use Huddy but i love huddy in oakland....would love him to stay in the green and gold because the only way the red could do a trade is if they offer Casey or Dunn or Kearns and few minor leaguers and with Casey's contract being extended and Dunn setting up as being a franchise player....and....Kearns is going to thrown at third next year with the emergence of Freel and Willy Mo Pena......Huddy to the reds would be nice from a standpoint but personally i'm rooting for huddy to ink a new deal

GO A'S!!!!

by TorontoAsFan on Nov 3, 2004 11:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

That other New York team
How about trading Huddy to the Mets for Jose Reyes and David Wright? You could then flip Wright to the Reds (they are looking for a thirdbaseman) for Kearns and perhaps a bullpen arm and make Reyes your starting secondbaseman/back-up shortstop. Both Ellis and Reyes are injury risks, but with each giving the other plenty of rest, it could work. And Reyes would give the A's speed and athleticism at the top of the order, allowing Kotsay to move down to more of an RBI slot. The Mets would be dumb to trade both prospects, but they did trade Scott Kazmir for basically nothing.

by Melissa on Nov 3, 2004 10:21 AM PST   0 recs

Ugh... Reyes
The guy's hamstrings are porcelian. Could we please flip him instead of Wright?

by grover on Nov 3, 2004 11:51 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

D Wright
Hell, I'd think about taking Wright for Huddy straight-up... especially if we think we could move him to 2B.  He is an absolute stud.  
If this trade has wings I'd be very happy with letting it fly.
LFB 4 ever

by Tim J on Nov 3, 2004 2:09 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

If Hudson is Traded
It will be a good indicator that Beane believes that the A's have little or no chance to make the playoffs next year. Hudson is the rock of the staff and a team leader.

by bayfrank on Nov 3, 2004 10:23 AM PST   0 recs

Trading Huddy
Hudson could bring more in a trade than Mulder or Zito could. Plus, his contract is up after 2005. I think Beane could easily keep the team a contender by trading Huddy. We're not talking about dealing for prospects here.

by Kelly on Nov 3, 2004 10:27 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

'05 hopes
That's the problem. I love the concept of getting something for the guy, but I can't deal with the prospect of not having him on the staff next year. We've survived some players leaving, but not one of the big 3. Where would this put us for next year. I don't think we would even get the chance to watch him pitch against us in the playoffs. We'd be watching on TV.

by bmonic on Nov 3, 2004 10:37 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Posada
I hate the idea of Hudson leaving, but if he does go it would have to be for a deal where we get at least one top tier, All-Star caliber player. Of the ones mentioned I think Posada is the most intriguing and the most likely. The Yankees are poor in starting pitching and rich in big bats. The A's are rich in starting pitching but need a veteran catcher and a big bat. That said, I think Beane would insist on getting more than one player for Hudson, no matter how good the player.

Hmm... how about Mariano Rivera? No, it will never happen but it would be a heck of a fun rumor.

by matthias on Nov 3, 2004 10:45 AM PST   0 recs

Posada
King George is going to have to pick up a big chuck of that $9 million salary if we are to get Posada.

I agree though - I like it better that the Nixon deal. And Posada is a switch hitter.

by Kelly on Nov 3, 2004 10:52 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Posada......
I hate Posada......let's get someone else.

by AlwaysSweatin on Nov 3, 2004 3:09 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Don't do it, Billy.

by jmoney on Nov 3, 2004 11:01 AM PST   0 recs

Posada
getting Posada is a bad move....he's getting older...i believe he's 33 or 34 and his defense is bad....hitting wise he has great power for a switch hitting catcher but defensivly i wouldn't take him.

what about getting a guy liek Paul Lo Duca from the dodgers??

GO A'S!!!!

by TorontoAsFan on Nov 3, 2004 11:21 AM PST   0 recs

Uhm...
Except he plays for the Marlins.

I heard a story from JP last year that a GM actually called him during the season about a trade (forget who) and asked if Sean Greene was available. Since he hadn't played for the Jays in 2 years, JP hung up the phone. Thought I would mention it.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 3, 2004 11:24 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

i agree with "bayfrank"....
..if the a's trade huddy they are giving up on yrs. of contention. there are just some players a team can't trade and you must bend over and take what they want for staying. huddy is that type of player.

i still believe zito to the mets for wright or white sox for c. lee

 

ElephantCrew Rules

by bigelephant on Nov 3, 2004 11:42 AM PST   0 recs

damnit

we all new this day was looming.  if we have to give huddy 4 years at $50M or so, that just doesn't seem to work with our budget (unless we don't need any other players).  i can't imagine he starts the year as an Athletic, and that really saddens me.  i'm confident Beane can get a great package for him though, certainly something better than Jorge Posada.

by Eric in Atlanta on Nov 3, 2004 11:42 AM PST   0 recs

sigh
wouldn't surprise me because no one knows what's going on with the jays anymore....sigh....and only 11 years ago they won a world series....might i add that i hate hockey because even though there is no hockey the toronto press still covers only hockey....god i hate that......the jays name john gibbons they're manager a week after the regular season....it got a paragraph article in the paper.
GO A'S!!!!

by TorontoAsFan on Nov 3, 2004 11:44 AM PST   0 recs

huddy
Judging from that story by the Sacto Bee, it doesn't look good for the A's to retain Huddy's services beyond next season without awarding him a fat contract that just about guarantees the loss of Mulder or Zito. . .

"Cohen said he last spoke with Beane in September. They will discuss Hudson's status again later this month after Beane returns from next week's general managers' meetings in Key Biscayne, Fla.

Cohen would not disclose the terms of the deal Hudson is seeking but indicated Hudson wants a long-term contract at top dollar. Cohen said he considered Hudson among baseball's best five pitchers."

Does anybody really see Huddy signing for less than Colon money? If we're lucky we'll get him for 4 years-50 mil or so, but I dont think that will be sufficient. BB cannot tie up 30-40% of the payroll in 2 players, can he? Even if he can, that means AT LEAST one of the Big 3 has to go, and soon. I'm sorry, Mark Mulder, but that means you. It's been nice knowin ya and watchin that lanky frame chuck balls for 2 hours and 9 innings, but you've been injury-prone forever. . . back injury weightlifting, mysterious hip injury (non-baseball related activities, of course), mysterious forearm strain, the list goes on and on. You'll never achieve a full season of that Cy Young form you flash for a couple months at a time. . . at least we've seen Zito keep his head in the game for a full season.

So I'm sorry Mark, but you'll be traded whenever the team needs a bat really badly. You might as well set something up for us with the ChiSox for Carlos Lee. . .

On another note. . . did anybody see the Chronicle story from last Saturday about Larry Ellison wanting to buy the Warriors or Forty-Whiners? Why would a businessman like him be interested in seriously under-performing and over-valued franchises like those, when the A's are uber-competitive and definitely under-valued. I think Schott and Hoff would take less than 300 mil for the team and Ellison could easily build a new park in the north parking lot. Or he could wake up and realize we don't need a new stadium, and just pump in an extra 20 mil a year . . . wouldnt that be nice?

by kotsbots on Nov 3, 2004 11:48 AM PST   0 recs

Will Huddy want to sign?
with the A's ???

Its one thing for the A's to even offer 'Colon' money ...

It'd be another for Huddy to sign ...
   -not only is he going to want the right amount of bucks...
   -he's also going to want to be on a contender!

   In the current 'Schott' state if Huddy gets what he's worth the A's will be Hudson, Chavy
   and a whole lot of low-dollars filling out the team ...
       -doesn't sound like much of a contender ...

   IMO Beane sees all of this and is working to get something for Huddy that will help the team
     for years to come with a lower payroll impact.

by Bleed Green on Nov 3, 2004 11:58 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

the shawn green anecdote
what's sad about it is not the state of the jays, but how worthless green has become in LA. It's pretty hard to get overlooked in a market like LA

by kotsbots on Nov 3, 2004 11:50 AM PST   0 recs

the A's also want to contend
So it would make no sense to trade Hudson, the heart and soul of the A's pitching.

Of course other teams want him and will start all kinds of rumors. Until I hear this coming directly from Beane I won't believe that it's more than wishful thinking and/or Beane doing a 'bait and switch'.

On the other hand, if it turns out that the A's can't sign Hudson, then perhaps Billy will entertain BIG, meaningful offers that will put the A's in the postseason and hopefully, win. Trot Nixon bats lefty, is expensive and too often injured.

by OaklandSi on Nov 3, 2004 1:58 PM PST   0 recs

Negative Margin
Money and baseball. A sure fire way to run the sport into the ground. How many lastplace awards can you give out to underprivilged fans? Hudson leaving is just another player in a long line.. evaportaing the talent pool in search of greater dollars. He deserves every penny. A great player with a great personality. I hope everbody enjoyed the Red Sox and Yankees. Because there is much more of it on the way.

I always viewed baseball as a reflection of our society. That is, possibly where my true love of the sport is found. Today, that seems more than true. Its the haves vs. the have nots. The difference between the Yankees of the world and the Athletics seems to be widening. Mediocrity is on the way to Oakland.  The margin for error by a small market is getting smaller by the day.  The secrets of Moneyball were great while it lasted. I'm just a little upset.

Bobby Crosby for President

by Parklife on Nov 3, 2004 2:05 PM PST   0 recs

The Machine
if we trade Hudson do we throw in "the Huddy machine" for free or do we leverage it for a little extra?  What could "the machine" bring in on the open market?  Matt Stairs?
LFB 4 ever

by Tim J on Nov 3, 2004 2:11 PM PST   0 recs

Trading Huddy to NL Contender
If BB was to trade any of the Big 3, he would be wise to get them over to an NL Team.  

I know Huddy would welcome a trade to the NL.  Dude rakes at the plate.  

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Nov 3, 2004 2:29 PM PST   0 recs

Huddy will go the Washington Senators...
..for their entire roster. He's going to be the next Walter Johnson, don't cha' know?

I'm sure it's not set in stone, who will stay and who will go. Billy's just going to bide his time until somebody makes him an offer he can't refuse.

I just pray it's not Hudson that goes.

I wonder how Billy ranks the Big Three in value.

I think it should be:

1)Huddy
2)Mulder
3)Zito

by McFood on Nov 3, 2004 2:47 PM PST   0 recs

I don't doubt
that Billy values Huddy above either Mulder or Zito, it's just the fact that Hudson's contract is up first.  And realistically, I'm betting that Timmy is looking for something more substantial than what the A's could offer him.

So it's either trade him this offseason, trade him leading up to the deadline or risk losing him for a few draft picks.

I trust Billy will get the most for him.

by Blez on Nov 3, 2004 2:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Trading Hudson
I'm sure Beane is considering something alone these lines, but I've got to believe that there are much better deals to be found than either the Red Sox or Yankee proposals.

I say raid Baltimore!
Plunder the Pirates!
Mug the Mets!
Bamboozel the Phillies!

Or something like that.

by grover on Nov 3, 2004 3:03 PM PST   0 recs

Aliteration
C'mon man-- Pilfer the Phillies

by jmoney on Nov 3, 2004 7:05 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Can we realistically afford any of the Big Three
   So now that we've lamented in various ways about life without HuddyBall, what's the next step? Thus far we've envisioned Huddy going anywhere from LA to NY etc. Last year, BB stated that he may be able to keep two but not all three of these guys? Is this the sort of sweet talk we heard when the "soul-less mercenary" Giambi was in his final year?
   We know that this is it for Huddy and 2 more years on the other two. So who's going to bring the most in return? I suppose if we could use the wisdom of Solomon, we'd take Huddy's arm, Zito's leg's, and Mulder's efficiency and throw the rest of the used parts to the rest of the league...I know, not realistic and maybe borderline psychotic.
   So what does the future hold for us? The answer may be in the past. Organizations such as the Dodgers, Cardinals, Orioles established strong teams for extended periods of time through a superior farm system, emphasizing pitching and defense. Billy's already there with this organization. The biggest difference b/w then and now is free agency. Well, baseball just signed a huge deal with satellite radio for MLB games. Maybe this raises budget by a few mill for each team. Probably not enough for most teams but we are, after all, moneyball central and if BB can't make more out of less, I don't know who can. Thank God, he's on our side.
   I suppose through the strength of our farm, it will be exciting and a little painful who the next Big Three will be. Now we are waiting for Harden to "cowboy up" and let's see who comes afterward.

by Gerard on Nov 3, 2004 4:00 PM PST   0 recs

You had me until
you said "Cowboy up."  

by Blez on Nov 3, 2004 4:04 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

re: Cowboy Up
   It's the phrase, what's his face Milar used to say last year on the Red Sox when his teammates would come through in the clutch. No other implications.
 Re: Harden, I hope he's our next Ace to make the rest of MLB drool in envy.

by Gerard on Nov 3, 2004 4:16 PM PST   0 recs

That exactly why I don't like
that phrase anymore :-)

by Blez on Nov 3, 2004 4:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Harden will be.....
the envy of every team in baseball if he lives up to his potential. Harden will be a combination of Barry, Mulder and Husdon. I get excited just thinking about Harden and his future with the A's. Hey, if Barry leaves, Harden is a good consolation prize... :D
Gotta Love the Zito.... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 3, 2004 4:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Apologies to Blez
I hereby declare I will never use that phrase again.

by Gerard on Nov 3, 2004 4:59 PM PST   0 recs

Can we just once
keep the heart of the team? Harden's Harden, Mulder's Mulder, Zito's Zito, but there is no one I want to throw the big game for the A's then Hudson. If you can't sign him, then what's the point anymore? Give away a potential Hall of Famer? Talk as much as you want about Moneyball, but you know what - Moneyball isn't fun anymore.

by TheO4Ever on Nov 3, 2004 5:09 PM PST   0 recs

Hudson to ... Indians?
Here's a suggestion that I'm sure no one will like at all: Hudson and Rhodes to the Indians for Victor Martinez.

Martinez is like the Pudge of 5 years ago + the Posada of 4 years ago. Very good defense, cannon for an arm, and a switch-hitter with very good OPS and SLG. And he's only just completed his second year. He's cheap (and will be for several years) and has established himself as the up-and-coming C in the AL.

Cleveland has a very good backup C in Josh Bard and a can't-miss C prospect coming up in Ryan Garko, so Martinez (though he is supposedly a team leader and a building block for Shapiro) is conceivably expendable for the right price.

Hudson would give the Tribe a front-line ace for a push in '05 to contention, with a chance to sign him to a big contract (or flip him before the trade deadline). Rhodes would give them a solid closer or setup man (their 'pen this year was astonishingly bad -- Rhodes would be an improvement).

What would we get out of this? Well, probably the #1 C next year in the AL, locked up for cheap through his arbitration year. This would also enable us to deal from a position of strength and turn some of our bonanza of catching prospects into other solutions (RH OF bat). We also ditch Rhodes' albatross of a contract.

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2004 5:23 PM PST   0 recs

Interesting
It would be a coup to pull that one off.

by grover on Nov 3, 2004 5:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yup, it would
Cleveland GM Mark Shapiro is pretty sharp. He is, to borrow my own formulation, "the Theo Epstein of 4 years ago." It might even take more sweetening than what I proposed to get him to part with Martinez.

Perhaps Beane could start off by offering some kind of Hudson-for-Garko deal (obviously, with more components); Shapiro counters that no way in heck is Beane getting his hands on Garko; Beane then suggests Martinez ...

Anyway, what I like about the deal as I suggested it is that both sides give up a lot of quality to solve immediate needs without sacrificing too much by way of long-term value. The Tribe is more loaded with prospects right now than we are; they genuinely do need some players with established MLB performance levels.

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2004 5:57 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

For Huddy?
We will not traid him, but if we do we better get more then Victor Martinez. If Brad Penny is worth LaDuca and Mota, uhm Huddy is worth allot more then Penny.

If he has to go, LaDuca and Mota should be the standard. What about Pat Burrel, Tim Worrel, and Jimmmy Rollins? What about Lance Berkman and Brad Lidge? That's the kind of value that Huddy should have. Especially if we are throwing in a Rhodes or Byrnes.

But again, he is going nowhere. We will build around Huddy, Zito and Harden. If Schott does not give Beane the budget to do this, we could be watching Beane leaving soon.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 3, 2004 8:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Not even close
Hudson's only got one more year before he hit free agency. No one is going to give the sort of package you're talking about unless they get to negotiate an extension with Hudson before the trade. That doesn't happen often, and with Huddy's recent injury history it's unlikely to happen here.

Victoe Martinez might be the best offensive catcher in the AL. He's only 25 and last year made a little over the league minimum. Young, cheap and good. It would take more than one year of Hudson to get that kind of player from Cleveland.

by grover on Nov 3, 2004 10:15 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Minors
We have 4 guys in the minors that are 1-3 years away from being Victor Martinez. Be a serious waste of Huddy.
"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 4, 2004 8:22 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe
rook, you're right, we do have a wealth of good-to-excellent catching prospects.

But they're still "just" prospects at this point.

Martinez has proven beyond a doubt that he can both hit and catch ML-level pitching. That proven ML-level performance is a huge value-add for a young, cheap player. Huge.

I'm not hatin' on Baker, Brown, Suzuki et al. On the contrary -- I think they're all highly valuable, but probably more so as trade bait than as anything we should count on to provide production at the ML level.

And they could all go bust very easily. Catching prospects aren't as volatile as pitching prospects, but they're close.

by monkeyball on Nov 4, 2004 8:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

What about
Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb????

by Tony on Nov 4, 2004 7:54 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

funny how our tunes change
when we're talking about what our players will do for another team:

Rhodes would give them a solid closer or setup man

solid closer?  i think we need to give other GMs a little credit.  sure, the indians need bullpen help, but certainly Rhodes and his $3M contract aren't on a most wanted list of GMs around the league.  i think they'd eat it if it meant getting one of the big three, but i doubt anybody wants him.

by Eric in Atlanta on Nov 4, 2004 4:39 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Context
And where in my suggestion did I say the Indians weren't getting one of the big three? I would think that any deal Beane would make involving one of the big three would have Rhodes included as a poison pill.

Look, yes, Rhodes had a bad year, no doubt about it. But he's still a left-handed reliever with an established MLB performance level (a bit below what it was a couple years ago, but still). Rhodes really does represent a big step up from the Indians' pen last year.

And if you look at comparable pitchers, Rhodes' contract isn't quite so bad.

I'd say, if the Indians were willing to do the deal on the condition that we covered $1-2M of Rhodes salary '04-05, I'd still do it. Martinez is that good.

by monkeyball on Nov 4, 2004 7:10 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

ok, good points

i need to remember that while rhodes was a bust as a closer for us, really the contract isn't bad if he can be an above average lefty setup man.  which he has been in the past.

i didn't realize how good martinez was until i looked at his numbers.  nice numbers, especially for a 25 year-old catcher.  ok, i'm sold on the deal.  :)

by Eric in Atlanta on Nov 4, 2004 9:09 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Just don't hate on BB
When the day comes and we trade away our aces...Eventually I think we will sign Hudson to like a 2 or 3 year deal, if Zito struggles this year, we trade him off to the Mets(cliff floyd +prospects and $$$$) or White Sox(Carlos Lee, and $$$)...Mulder i think would still be signed through 2006 or so, that would give this team a 2 year window to win it all, and if we don't, huddy is gone and still young, and mulder would move on, leaving us a rotation of Harden,Blanton,and all the others that we will have firing and young.

by PJGiza on Nov 3, 2004 10:10 PM PST   0 recs

Huddy Trade Talk
It's making me really sick.  All the rumors about Huddy to NY or Bos are just that so far -- RUMORS.
Just the thought of Huddy not being on the A's is scary, saddening, and every other miserable feeling :(
Please A's, resign him!  
GO A's!!!

by AsGirl on Nov 4, 2004 7:26 AM PST   0 recs