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Beanewatching: How should we evaluate the Kendall trade?

AN has been obsessed lately with the Jason Kendall trade, and rightly so: this trade is huge for the franchise.  But is it good or bad?

Purely in terms of talent, the trade is an obvious slam-dunk huge upgrade for Oakland.  As the headline over Ratto's column so succinctly put it: "One good plus, two good minuses for A's".  So what's not to like?  Why is there a raging debate over whether this is good or catastrophically bad for the green and gold?  It comes down to the "one bad plus" that didn't make Ratto's headline: additional payroll.  Quite a lot of additional payroll.  Is this bad enough to ratchet the value of this trade down from "wonderful" to "neutral," or even to "poor" or (god forbid) "disastrous"?  And what are the proper criteria for determining that?  The following is a lengthly and rather geeky analysis; I hope it's worth the trouble for those who bear with it.
First let's assemble the facts, so far as we can discern them.

Kendall's contract:  $10M, $11M, and $13M over the next three years, $34M total value.  All sources seem to agree on these numbers.

Rhodes' contract:  This is more uncertain.  Numerous sources agree on the total of $9.2M for three years, but I've never seen an authoritative year-by-year breakout of that sum.  The only sources that purport to give year-by-year numbers appear to be simply averaging the total over three years for lack of better information.  However, contracts tend to be backloaded, and both USA Today and ESPN show a $1.8M salary in 2003.  That leaves $7.4M owing over 2005-2006, which is exactly the figure used by Mychael Urban as well as Alan Robinson of AP, so let's go with that.  If anyone has better information, please speak up.

Redman's contract:  Heavily backloaded.  $500,000 signing bonus, $1.75M in 2004, $4.25M in 2005, a player option for $4.5M in 2006 (assuming the club turns down its option at $4.95M).  There's also $250,000 per year in incentives.  I haven't seen these specified anywhere, but I believe the A's mostly stay very basic when they consent to incentive clauses, probably using very realistic innings pitched goals to protect the club a little if the player gets hurt or isn't good enough to stay in the rotation.  So I think we have to consider those incentives as a likely part of the cost of the contract, such that the best estimate of the 2005-2006 costs (assuming the signing bonus was paid up front) is $4.5M and $4.75M, for a total of $9.25M remaining of the original $11.75M.  The 3-year average would be $3.9M, but the remaining 2-year average jumps all the way up to $4.625M.

So Rhodes and Redman together: $16.65M over the next two years.  That's higher than most estimates being used; on the other hand the CC Times has been saying $17.5M, which I have to assume is simply wrong (although you can get there by using the club option number instead of the player option, and if payment of the signing bonus was deferred).  

Now for the additional cash:  Slusser seems to have been the most precise, so let's assume her information is the most accurate until we find out otherwise.  Slusser said the A's pitch in about $1M in 2005 and 2006, but that the overall cash adjustments favor the A's by about $5M, which implies a $7M Pittsburgh contribution towards Kendall's $13M 2007 salary.  (Urban says only $5M from the Pirates in 2007, but I think he may be re-reporting and misinterpreting Slusser's figures.  If not, that's a nasty $2M extra hit for Oakland.)

So the cost of Kendall's contract, counting cash adjustments but disregarding the Rhodes and Redman contracts:
$11M 2005, $12M 2006, $6M 2007, TOTAL $29M, yearly average $9.7M

Net of the subtracted Redman and Rhodes contracts (calculating Rhodes at $3.7M/yr):
$2.8M 2005, $3.55M 2006, $6M 2007, TOTAL $12.35M, yearly average $4.12M

So those are the relevant facts (as close as I can establish them at this time).  But what are we to make of them?

Kendall is better than some here give him credit for.  OBP is the single most important offensive stat, and Kendall's OBP has been a magnificent .390 or better in 6 out of 8 years, with the two exceptions being due to a single lingering injury.  It's also a big plus that his OBP is due more to a high average than lots of walks, as hits are on average more useful than walks.  His high batting average is a well-established core ability, not a short term gift of the trickster god BABIP.  His VORP in 2004 was higher than Varitek's (as was also the case in 2003), slightly ahead of Victor Martinez, and right in line with Ivan Rodriguez' normal VORP (although IRod spiked well upward this year).  It's true that he owes part of his VORP to his large amount of playing time, so that his per at-bat value is slightly less than some of these competitors, but we who watched our incumbent catcher (among others) waste into uselessness from late-season exhaustion should appreciate durability.

Should we evaluate the deal by its net cost (i.e. Kendall minus Redman minus Rhodes minus cash adjustment)?  In that case the question amounts to: Would you sign Jason Kendall to a 3-year $12.35M deal, backloaded such that the first two years cost a little over $6M?  If that's the question, the answer is obviously "Hell yes!  Hell yes!"  But is that the right question?

Now look at it from the opposite pole:  What if you had the ability to simply nuke the Rhodes and Redman contracts, giving them away and getting nothing in return but assuming none of their future costs?  If we assume that to be doable, then going ahead with the Kendall deal is the equivalent of signing him to a front-loaded $29M 3-year free agent deal.  Would that be a good deal?  The answer to that is clearly "Hell no!"  But that's not quite the right question either.

Let's try this thought experiment:  What if you could auction off the Rhodes and Redman contracts, what would you get?  In other words, how much would we have to pitch in to entice someone to simply take the rest of these contracts off our hands, not asking anything in return?

Rhodes signed as a free agent, so he got what the market would bear: $9.2M for three years.  And that was based on the assumption that he was really quite valuable.  Due to the backloading of his contract most of that money is still to be paid, and the per-year average going forward is up to $3.7M.  Meanwhile, Arthur has done an extraordinarily efficient job of absolutely demolishing his perceived value, what with seriously reduced velocity, a rotten attitude, a serious injury, and a passel of neck-swiveling appearances on Baseball Tonight's "Touch-'Em-All" feature.  But let's imagine that some delusional GM out there would still voluntarily pay $3M for 2 years of Arthur's service, that leaves the A's with a $4.2M contribution.

As for Redman, well, grover seems to think the A's wouldn't have to pitch in anything.  Maybe so, but I it seems unlikely to me.  Consider:  When Redman signed, he was a completely free agent (the A's traded for him but non-tendered him so he was free to negotiate whatever the market would bear).  His market value turned out to be less than $4M per year, even when heavily back-loaded.  And that came from the GM perhaps most well-disposed in baseball toward Redman's type (Beane loves lefties even more than most GMs, loves guys who throw changeups, isn't prejudiced against soft-tossers).  It was also coming off his best year, a 3.57 ERA posted in a pitcher's park.  In his only other full season he put up a 4.21 ERA in Comerica Park at a time when that park was configured so as to utterly neutralize right-handed power hitters, Redman's chief nemesis.  Since signing the deal Redman has worked off the cheapest part of his contract, such that his per-year price is up to $4.65M, while moving from a 3.57 ERA to 4.71.  That's the kind of year you can get for a hell of a lot less money than that, and it cannot help but have significantly eroded his perceived value from the previous year.  So his cost has gone up and his value has gone down, and it doesn't stand to reason that someone out there would actually bid higher for him now than a year ago.  Still, I will agree that you wouldn't have to bring the price down too drastically before someone would bite; I can imagine him getting 2 years, $7M if he were a free agent.  That implies the A's could dump him if they were to pitch in $2.25M of his remaining $9.25M

So by my (very hypothetical) line of reasoning Billy could have simply dumped the two contracts by agreeing to eat a total of $6.45M, with some other patsies chowing down on the remaining $10M poison pill.  If that's true, then the real cost of this deal is the $12.35M of additional payroll we're taking on PLUS the $10M we might have been able to discharge without taking on someone else's problem contract.  Is $22.35M for 3 years of Jason Kendall a good use of the A's payroll?  Well, Varitek is going to get more than that, and you can make a solid argument that Kendall is the better player, or at least Varitek's equal (Varitek's reputation is such that I think most people will balk at this conclusion, but the data support it).  But at nearly $7.5M per year, he's not a bargain (although neither is re-signing Chavez or Hudson or Tejada or Mulder; you can't win with bargains alone).  

(By the way, one thing I'm intentionally leaving out of this analysis is the savings we get by not signing Miller, or the savings of Blanton over Redman, etc.  Those are all certainly relevant to how the A's freed up the money that went into this deal, but they're not relevant to whether the deal makes financial sense on its own terms.)

The bottom line is that the A's have seriously improved themselves on the field, but at a premium price.  It may be too high a price, but I think the price is not so grossly out of line as to justify the worst fears of grover and monkeyball.  Time will tell.  If you make different assumptions and judgments than the ones I've made here, you can of course judge this deal as either much worse or much better than I have argued.  Perhaps against my better judgment I feel rather positive about it. Maybe that's because the on-field improvement is so palpable, while it's the other team that has to look at those two bums while talking bravely about "payroll flexibility."  In addition, whether this is an optimal use of dollars or not, you have to assume Billy has calculated that it's something he can afford.  One inference from the deal is that the payroll budget MUST have been bumped at least to the low-to-mid 60s, or this trade would simply be unmakeable.

There's plenty more to consider, but I'll have mercy on any fellow A's-obsessed nut jobs who have mustered the stamina to read this far.  Spring training doesn't start soon enough.

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bravo!
seriously, you make a lot of sense. of course, kendall is a serious improvement. the biggest concerns i had revolved around money, as in money to sign huddy, durazo, etc., and not trade any of the big three -- at least not in 2005. To me the only way to make all those concerns work out for the best would be if the A's payroll has risen again. I certainly hope so!  This looks like the A's seriously want to contend in 2005 -- and this signing seems to have really excited Hudson, to judge from his statements. Well, if he's excited so am I.

by OaklandSi on Nov 27, 2004 6:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Great analysis

Took the words right out of my mouth... well, not really, I could never have written anything close to that. Though it's what I've been trying to say. :)

by OaktownTribesman on Nov 27, 2004 6:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Bravo! I'm liking the trade more & more as
it appears our owners want the A's to win as much as we!
Beane "the architect" is busy at it again!

by A s Eh on Nov 27, 2004 6:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

One last comment on the finances;
In as much as the A's have established a tight-fisted fiscal policy that is seemingly tied to matching reciepts. We may be off in our old assumptions. They may not have anything to do with what the owners are willing to spend in 2005 & 2006.

That factor that is the owners and theirs only. But it can be that their rationale is that 2005 & 2006 are serious contender years for the A's World Series hopes, while 2007 is out of reach, economically, due to ever increasing salaries that outpace even the reciepts of World Series winners.

I guess the other consideration might be that those 2007 salaries would be too excessive if you DON'T go to the World Series also.

If this is true, it is very logical to designate 2007 as a rebuilding year of mostly the best prospects and minimum salaried apprenticeships and used those salary savings NOW, in 2005 & 2006 to seriously put a charge into bringing that trophy home to the A's.

Beane "the architect" is busy at it again!

by A s Eh on Nov 27, 2004 7:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good Take...
I would agree with that assumption completely. By 2007 most of our best prospects will be our starters, with our expensive veterans moving on by then. I hope Beane has a meeting with ownership and says, "If you increase payroll this year ('05) and next ('06) I promise you a significant decrease in 2007-2010."

I think that would pacify most parties involved, including the fans, who seem to think that these next two years will be our last real chance to claim that trophy.

by Taj Adib on Nov 27, 2004 8:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm thinking they already had that meeting
and the Kendall deal is one of it's results.
Beane "the architect" is busy at it again!

by A s Eh on Nov 27, 2004 8:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you know what?
Randy Johnson.

enough said.

pipedream? yes... damn nice dream? hell yes.

by rickeytime on Nov 27, 2004 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A's lease at the Net
does anyone remember when the A's lease at the Net is up? that could also be a factor, since the A's have relatively cheap rent there.

by OaklandSi on Nov 28, 2004 4:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And
  Weren't they going to rename it Macafee Stadium or something?

by davebenfremont on Nov 28, 2004 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lease
We have to play in the Net/ McAfee through 2007. We should have a new stadium at the time we leave.

Source <http://www.bizjournals.com/eastbay/stories/2002/07/08/daily27.html>

by paul75 on Nov 28, 2004 1:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

important piece of information
thanks. so the A's have a cheap home through 2007 -- which is also the last year of Kendall's contract, and when Mulder and Zito's contracts are up. Lots of big things happening at the same time.

by OaklandSi on Nov 28, 2004 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good job, and thanks for cleaning it up
This discussion would be so much easier if we had an accurate source to find contract information. I'm pretty confident that AN knows where I stand on this issue so I'm not going to re-hash old arguements. But I would like to clear up a few things about Rhodes and Redman. Other than the Colorado scenario, I never envisioned a situation that would have moved Rhodes unless it was part of a package deal. I still think one of B3 gets traded this off-season, and I always figured Rhodes would end up attached to that deal. Not going to happen that way now.

Redman is a peculiar case. His numbers away from Oakland where very good, and his price tag in comparison to those numbers is very favorablee. I don't believe it would take much of a sales job to move Redman to another team. All Beane would have to say is "Don't let him pitch in Oakland and you'll get the 03 version." That pitcher had obvious value, and he showed himself nearly every time he pitched away from the Colesium.

by grover on Nov 27, 2004 8:11 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Here is my take on Redman and Rhodes;
First of all I liked both and was for acquiring both, I saw a lot of value in each, what I'm saying here I have no axes to grind.

Redman: I don't believe it was what he did or did not do, I think it is what Harden and Blanton did and did not do. Harden is flat out better, and Blanton or Seth (Ethington?) are ready to try at #5 starter. Odd man out. Redman is beyond being a #5.

Rhodes: From the beginning I thought closer was given to him but with a wink. When he couldn't keep up he would return to being on of the best setup lefties in the biz. While with the A's he & Hudson took issue with eachother. Forget about who was right, who was wrong. It got into the papers and escalated. When ever an A's player gets his negativity into the papers he is going to another team and soon. Right or wrong that is the A's. Carlos Pena, Jose Guillen, Arthur Rhodes, and perhaps Kielty & Melhuse. Beane is still building.

Beane "the architect" is busy at it again!

by A s Eh on Nov 27, 2004 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Dodger Stadium is a perfect
fit for Rhodes. I think he will impress in 2005 - 2006.
Beane "the architect" is busy at it again!

by A s Eh on Nov 27, 2004 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I get where you're coming from
I came on AN during the early part of the season and said that Rhodes would end up performing like Koch did for us in 2002... he'd scare you but he'd pull it off in the end.

Oops.

by grover on Nov 27, 2004 10:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Koch?
I'm not sure Koch really pulled it off as much as the (admittedly shaky) offense that year.  I can remember two walk-off home runs during the winning streak by Hatteberg and Tejada alone after Koch erased a small lead in the 9th.

I may be mis-remembering the details, but I did see Koch pitch enough times for it to scare the shit out of me every time he took the mound.  Even though Dotel gives up home runs, at least he doesn't seem to crack under the pressure of one-run games like Koch did - I'll take him any day.

Rhodes was in way over his head, unfortunately.  Hopefully he'll bounce back - I'm sure last year was quite a blow.

by LD on Nov 30, 2004 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never liked Redman
In any case Beane outbid the market (overpaying, I thought, even given Redman's positive though modest accomplishments at the time), then he got a lot worse while his contract got more costly.  Doesn't make sense that anyone would pay full price for that, which of course doesn't make it impossible, either.  But surely you don't think other GMs could be persuaded to just disregard the Oakland part of his performance, as if his "road warrior" self was for real but his "home doormat" persona was somehow irrelevant?

As for the big 3, I've never felt we'd keep more than one long term (alas), and I don't know that Billy would tolerate the disruption of more than one leaving in the same off-season, so I don't think the door is closed to something happening this winter.

by Faust on Nov 27, 2004 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More Redman
Beane wouldn't be able to spin Redman into Aubrey Huff, but he would have been able to find bullpen help and/or bench help without too much trouble. Redman's 2003 success is a matter of record, his road numbers in 2004 undeniable. He simply didn't pitch well in Oakland. The obvious solution would be to not have him pitch often in Oakland... which isn't that feasible as a member of the Oakland rotation! That's your sales pitch.

A good example of the type of trade I'm talking about would have been to send Redman to Philadelphia for Marlon Byrd and a prospect/bullpen arm. He's 27, a RH hitter with a bit of pop, and he made $355,000 in 2004. Byrd struggled last year but I contribute that to a combination sophmore slump/struggeling team/bad manager situation. He's an above-average defensvie outfield with a record of minor league and major league hitting success. The Phillies have soured on him and are looking for starting pitching to replace the expected departures of Milton and Millwood. The bullpen arm/prospect to be included would take a bit more work than I'm willing to put in right now, but it would also be influenced by other deals I had in the works.

by grover on Nov 27, 2004 9:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, clearly we disagree on what Redman is worth
I think if you take everything together - home, road, ballparks, K rate - he's marginal.  If the Pirates were now to cut him so that we could pick him up for the major league minimum, I'd be disappointed to see Billy do it.

Honestly, if you were a GM - for any team - would you give Redman a 2-year deal for $9 million?  Really?  And give up a prospect or two into the bargain?  For that money you expect a good pitcher, not a bottom of the rotation warm body.

I'd have been an enthusiastic supporter of your Redman for Byrd trade, but I'd love to hear the Philly sportstalk shows' take on it.  Philly needs good pitchers; they've got plenty of mediocre, underperforming starters already. And for a fly-ball pitcher who didn't like pitching in the Coliseum, you're proposing Citizen's Bank Park as his new home?

On the other hand, we live in a world where Bobby Bowden just gave a stiff like Christian Guzman $16 million, so maybe you're right and Billy did miss a chance to foist Redman's carcass off onto some eager victim, who knows.

by Faust on Nov 28, 2004 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Redman's worth
You asked a very important question about Redman's value and I wanted to give you at least an educated assumption regarding his free agent worth. I don't think he'd get a 2 year/$9 million deal based on his 2004 performance. Not even when giving him the benefit of the doubt in regards to his Colesium struggles and emphasizing his 2004 road numbers as well as his 2003 season do I believe he'd get $9 million. Probably more like $7-8 million.

I'm basing this estimate on a move Philadelphia has actually made. They re-signed Cort Lidle to a 2 year/$6.3 million contract after the 2004 season. I've posted Lidle's stats below.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5806&context=pitching

Redman is LH and two years younger than Lidle, which I think adds (roughly) $1 million more to the contract. Their 2004 numbers are very similiar but how they got there is different. Lidle used an excellent Sep/Oct to lower his overall numbers while Redman, as we know, pitched significantly better on the road than at home. I give more value to Redman's consistency away from the Colesium than Lidle's great month, so let's pad Redman's hypothetical contract by $500,000. I'm not sure how much, if any, moneys should be added to Redman's contract for his 2003 performance but any cash Lidle received because of his 2003 season (health, IP, etc.) should be doubled for Redman.

Of course, since Lidle has signed with Philly there is no way they would have traded for Redman, but the proposal I made (Redman for Byrd and prospect/arm) would be the standard by which I'd shop.

by grover on Nov 28, 2004 7:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're forgetting ...
I think it's idiotic, but, much of what teams are paying for when they sign a guy like Cory Lidle is to get an "established" starter. Never mind that he's pretty much established as a bad starter. He's established.

Redman, while he has, essentially, only pitched one season less than Lidle, hasn't established for himself the reputation of an "established" starter. When they think of Redman, people will consider him someone BB took a chance on and ended up being a bust ... even if he was better than Lidle.

Also, for a 2 year contract, the difference between 30 and 32 is fairly irrelevent.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 9:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Please tell me you're kidding.
Redman has started 127 games in his big league career and has thrown 806.2 innings. He's established himself. Quit picking arguements just for the sake of arguing.

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not ...
Like I said, the whole thing is idiotic. I agree that whatever value someone is assigning to Lidle for being an established starter, they should also apply to Redman.

That being said, they won't. Redman has made far too many of his starts in the ignored wastelands of Detroit and Florida (pre-WS - I know, it was the same season, but no body paid attention to them before the playoffs). The only high profile situations he's been in have been getting lit up in the playoffs and being a bust in Oakland.

Lidle is exactly the opposite as he had high profile success in Oakland, then headed off to largely ignored teams, where his failure was largely missed, especially since his 8-2 start with a 4.42 era in 2003 received far greater fanfare than his 4-13 finish with a 6.60 era.

GMs are humans with perceptions, just like the rest of us. Their positions of authority don't mean their decisions will always make sense.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GMs
Even the dumbest, laziest GM has enough sense to hire an assistant to do some research.

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So ...
You don't think GMs sign players based on the perception that they are "established", even if they aren't especially good?
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 10:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is pointless
The whole premise of this discussion was the idea that Redman hadn't established himself to a certain level as a starting pitcher in the bigs. I've shown that premise to be dead wrong. I was answering a specific question that Faust had asked. It's fine if you loath and despise Redman, I don't care. It's fine if you disagree with my assesment. But if you're going to continue this discussion you better bring more than "Redman hasn't established himself" because that's just not true.

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm ...
The premise of this discussion is the PERCEPTION that Redman has not established himself. You have proved an entirely different point that I never advanced dead wrong, that Redman is not established,

To quote myself, "I agree that whatever value someone is assigning to Lidle for being an established starter, they should also apply to Redman." I then did this nifty thing were I went on to explain why I think these perceptions exist.

You have said nothing of merritt sense then.

BTW, I don't loathe or despise Redman. Even knowing his difficulties at home last year, I still think acquiring him was a good move ... just one that was always intended to end after one year.

I also think that we got significant value for him - in, not only adding one of the best catchers in the majors, but also shedding ourselves of Rhodes' contract

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see
You are assuming that there is this "perception" surrounding Redman, and although you have presented no evidence to support this theory you are fairly certain that "it" would undermind my attempted answer to Faust. I merely proved, as you yourself have agreed, that such a perception should not exist in the mind of an even halfway competent GM. Stupidity will always exist in baseball, but the Mets have replaced the guy who traded Kazmir for Zambrano and even KC and Tampa have shown more sense than crash test dummies recently.

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I guess that's it then ...
Stupidity has been eliminated from the ranks of MLB GMs ... well, there is still that Lidle contract ... and some of those contracts given out by the Nats ... oh, and the Giants' "long term" solution at short.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Please see the quote
"Stupidity will always exist in baseball" in my previous reply. Really, if you're not going to bother reading what I say than feel free to reply to yourself to your heart's content.

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 11:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, I missed that ...
since immediately afterwards you were talking about how the traditionally stupid teams had recently mended their ways.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

bicker bicker
I'm not sure which is more sad, two people bickering over something they disagree on -- or two people seeking out increasingly meaningless semantic distinctions so that they can continue to bicker even after discovering that they really don't disagree on the point at all.

by iglew on Nov 30, 2004 3:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Saddest.... and we're out of room again
The guy who jumps in at the end because he's got nothing better to do.

by grover on Nov 30, 2004 6:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So we're substantially in agreement
You think he'd get "probably $7-8 million," while I used the $7 million figure in making my calculations.

Probably the main point of my analysis was to demonstrate that the true cost of the deal is somewhere between the simple difference of the financial obligations exchanged (which makes the deal look better than it is) and the remaining cost of Kendall's contract (which makes it look exhorbitant).  My provisional conclusion was that the deal was pricey, maybe too pricey, but that the difference between pricey and outright terrible is recognizing that some part of the Rhodes and Redman contracts constituted an undischargeable sunk cost.  Since you also recognize that, I don't think we're in that much disagreement on the facts.  It may be that our emotional responses to the facts are more divergent than our rational assessments of the facts themselves: I can't help but like this deal perhaps more than it deserves, while your gut-level loathing for it perhaps loathe it more than it really deserves.

Anyway, one peripheral point is that this trade is positive as an indicator: that is, the A's wouldn't be flinging money around like this if they hadn't concluded that they had it to spend. (Which is an observation that is separate from the question of whether the way they're spending it is the wisest way.)

by Faust on Nov 29, 2004 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So to sum up
Rhodes was a blight, Redman had trade value and if Oakland does bump its payroll by more than a few bucks Kendall's contract will not tie up all flexibility. That about right?

by grover on Nov 29, 2004 7:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Something like that
Although I might quibble a little about Redman having trade value.  We both think his value was less than his existing contract, which makes his trade value in one sense negative - you have to throw in a sweetener to get someone to take him.  But I imagine you're using "trade value" in the sense that you can flip him in a trade without having to pitch in anywhere near 100% of his contract - his contract is not flatly untradeable, like, I don't know, Hideki Nomo?  Chan Ho Park?

by Faust on Nov 30, 2004 4:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lilly
Grover, as usual, I am with you on this matter. I think Redman could have been a decent trading chit, on his own or as the center of a package deal.

I'd also like to remind everyone that Redman was essentially brought in to replace Ted Lilly. The Ted Lilly who Beane decided was too expensive -- and who Toronto re-signed for a significantly lower overall cost than Redman's ultimate contract with the A's.

It seems fairly obvious, in retrospect, that Redman was always going to be dumped after '04, with that back-loaded contract.

by monkeyball on Nov 29, 2004 7:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ted Lilly was moved to cut payroll ...
in order to allow room to go after Keith Foulke. It didn't work, Foulke got away, but I think most would agree, giving up Lilly was worth having a decent shot at keeping Foulke.

And, yeah, it was always obvious Redman was only going to stay for 1 year. Is he really someone that you'd haven wanted to stick around longer than that?

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 9:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hated the Lilly/Redman "swap" last yr
And that was when I still expected Kielty to be pretty good....If only I could get my employer to give me some paid leave so I'd have more time to write on A's blogs (I'll have to slip some magic mushrooms into the cafeteria food supply before making that request) I'd like to write about last year's trades.

Anyway, the nutshell version: I never understood why everyone seems to think Lilly was dumped to free up payroll, for signing Foulke or whatever.  Lilly's pay was small potatoes, and a key point is that it was a one-year obligation.  If he goes into the tank, you pat him on the butt and say so long.  If you pay a guy $12M to take his place and that guy goes into the tank, you suddenly have to pay a premium to get someone to take him off your hands.  If he tears his labrum you could get stuck for the whole thing.  Voluntarily exchanging (in effect) a short-term risk for a longer-term risk, when the guys in question have similar, middle tier projected performance levels...it doesn't work for me.  More importantly, it didn't work for the A's.  If they'd had Lilly instead of Redman, they'd have won the West rather handily--and saved a buck or two doing it.

by Faust on Nov 29, 2004 6:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lilly would've been up for arbitration
I'm sure someone will correct me if I remember wrong -- but I remember that Lilly would have been eligible for either arbitration or a reasonable significant raise. That was mentioned in several articles during Fall 2003 that tried to justify the trade. It seems reasonable that, if that was the case, the A's dumped expected salary in order to raise $$ to sign Foulke.

I was also unhappy with the trade -- even though I thought it was important to sign Foulke -- because I really liked what Lilly showed us during the second half of 2003, and especially during the playoffs.

by OaklandSi on Nov 30, 2004 5:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lilly a hard head
I seem to recall hearing that Lilly had some run-ins with the coaching staff. Something to the effect that he was going to pitch his way and damn anybody that tried to change that. Anybody else remember hearing that or am I just slowly losing my mind?

by grover on Nov 30, 2004 6:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're correct
and he signed for 5 mil over 2 years ... unquestionably a much better deal than the Redman one, but, again, it wasn't that simple. Redman was the backup plan after the resign Foulke plan fell through.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 30, 2004 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, he was up for arbitration
But he was still cheap.  A lot cheaper than Redman, and you're only on the hook for one year.  Being up for arbitration wasn't a reason to trade him, it was a justification, or a rationalization.  And like you, I was very taken with that astonishing, dominant performance in Game 3 against Boston in highly adverse circumstances (horrible defense behind him, historically bad baserunning by his own team, held baseball's best offense to 2 measly hits in 7 innings--think Redman could have managed that on the best day of his career?)

by Faust on Nov 30, 2004 4:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

written well
give yourself a pat on the back.

by ucla kid on Nov 27, 2004 9:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re:
Excellent post.  This more or less confirms what I believe.  We're a better team on paper.  The money, based on overall savings, isn't that out of line.  It'd be better with accurate contract information, but you go with what you have.

I tend to agree with grover about Redman's trade value.  The man just could not pitch at the Coliseum, but he put up excellent numbers on the road.

by dchu on Nov 27, 2004 9:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

great job
Great job, Faust. I believe you've analysed the contract situation correctly; the big variables are in the numbers and the assumptions about what other teams might be willing to pay various players. But I agree that the true cost to the A's of Kendall for three years will be in the neighborhood of $7-9 million per year. That's a very good deal for one of the better offensive catchers in the game.

Thanks for this.

by matthias on Nov 27, 2004 9:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good analysis
One thing, though.  No way can the A's give the closer's job to Huston Street in 2005.  He is less ready to step in than Aardsma was for the Giants in 2004.
MJB

by MJB on Nov 27, 2004 10:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

and that's why they'll sign Dotel
I don't think Street will simply be handed the closer's job yet. Should he make the club out of spring training -- which he has an excellent chance of doing -- he will be a setup man. Dotel will be the closer, probably for a 2-3 year contract. If Dotel does well he can always be traded later.

by OaklandSi on Nov 28, 2004 4:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

clarification
Note that the hit the A's take from this deal is not that great compared with the payroll they already had.  I wouldn't rule out a Hudson extension just yet, although I wouldn't bet on it either.

The payroll hit becomes a lot more severe if you were counting on being able to simply clear Rhodes and Redman from the payroll, leaving a lot more dollars to play with.

by Faust on Nov 28, 2004 10:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Huddy signing 50-50
The A's will definitely try. I think chances are 50-50 that they can sign Huddy to an extension this winter. Signing Kendall apparently is more positive in terms of signing Huddy, to judge from Huddy's reaction to the trade, since it is a good sign that the A's intend to go for it all in 2005. Judging from past performance it looks like payroll will go up again to low-mid 60's, which may be enough to sign Huddy. We'll see.

by OaklandSi on Nov 28, 2004 11:34 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just To clarify
When everyone here sais "go for it all in 05'" i don't get it. We go for it all every year. If your talking about Keeping Hudson the whole way, and then letting him walk, i understand
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 28, 2004 11:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Key
The key to re-signing Hudson is the Carl Pavano sweepstakes. I'm afraid that, with the Yankees and Red Sox outbidding each other, he'll get some ridiculous contract like 12 million per. And you know Hudson's not going to want less than what Carl Pavano got.

by OaktownTribesman on Nov 28, 2004 11:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"going for it all"
By that I mean that the A's will want to put the best possible team out in 2005 with the world series as the goal. that would mean keeping the 4 great starters all the way.

Not "going for it all" would be, as some writers have suggested, "taking a step back" in 2005, "rebuilding", in that one or more of the big 3 would be traded for cheaper players, prospects, cash, etc.

I don't think the latter is an option for the A's, and I'm glad.

Might they just let Hudson walk for draft picks after winning it all in 2005? maybe, if they can't sign him to an extension this winter or early spring.

by OaklandSi on Nov 28, 2004 11:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

big 3 didnt work anyway..
look at it all this way, we've had 3 big stud #1 pitchers on board for a few years now and couldnt hack it when it came down to it...Couldnt even get out of the first round. So we need some changes, if we lose one of them, so be it, we need to add more offense, and use younger pitchers. Lets develop all these young guys and keep replenishing ourselves.
This year could be the year we do it!
or next year, and thats totally realistic.

by PJGiza on Nov 28, 2004 2:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Actually they have worked very well
since the a's made the playoffs in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003. When you have 3 really good pitchers it's rare that all 3 will be hot at the same time for a lengthy period of time. Even in 2004 each of the big 3 had some good stretches, and in the second half harden came on strong. remember that the bullpen blew some of their strongest outings.

If the A's keep their 4 excellent pitchers in the 2005 rotation, chances are excellent that at least 2 will be hot at any time -- and it's a good possibility that more will be solid for most of the season. That is an advantage that no other team will be able to match, regardless of how much they spend. This kind of an advantage cannot be matched by the A's trading away one of their big 3 for hitting.

by OaklandSi on Nov 29, 2004 5:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
It wasn't for a lack of hitting that we didn't make it past the first round of the playoffs. It was the unpredictable, sometimes unbelievable little things like Dye breaking a leg, Jeremy not sliding, Byrnes not touching home plate, Miggy booting ground balls, Mulder getting injured, etc etc etc.

by OaktownTribesman on Nov 29, 2004 6:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching Wins Baseball Games, Period.
see Oakland Si's comments below.

It wasn't our pitching that let us down in the playoffs...

alleninsf

by sf drift king on Nov 29, 2004 7:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

stupid GMs?
I have to side with grover here: if you're going to guess what a player would be worth on the open market, the best way to do is to figure what the player ought to be worth on the market. Assuming that GMs are stupid does not help you make a beter estimate, because if they're stupid they can just as easily be stupid on the high side as the low side. It makes no sense to assume that all GMs will stupidly underpay, especially when all it takes is one willing to stupidly overpay to set the final price.

That said, I think the dumbest GM in baseball knows way more about baseball economics than anyone posting here, with the possible exception of a couple of professional sports journalists.

by matthias on Nov 29, 2004 12:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Please use the "reply to this" option
There are only so many stupid GMs and eventually they run out of money/roster spots to overbid on overrated players.

No one is talking about guessing what a player is worth. We're talking about guessing what a player would receive.

Stupid GMs might err on the low side and underbid what a player is worth ... but those offers have a fairly strong tendency not to get accepted, meaning they have little or no impact on the final salary.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Nov 29, 2004 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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