Haren Traded - Official Press Release
by OaklandA23 on Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM PST
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Print[UPDATE by baseballgirl]
Danny Haren has been traded to the Arizona Diamondbacks.
For those that were looking for complete details....
A’s Trade RHP Dan Haren to Arizona in Eight-Player Deal
RHP Connor Robertson Also Included In Deal; A’s Receive Six Players from Diamondbacks
OAKLAND, Calif. - The Oakland A’s today traded right-handed pitchers Dan Haren and Connor Robertson to the Arizona Diamondbacks in exchange for left-handed pitchers Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland and Greg Smith, infielder Chris Carter and outfielders Aaron Cunningham and Carlos Gonzalez.
Haren was 15-9 with a 3.07 ERA in 34 starts for the A’s last year. He had career highs in wins and strikeouts (192) and his ERA was the lowest of his career and third lowest in the American League. The 27-year old right-hander was originally acquired by the A’s from St. Louis following the 2004 season and compiled a 43-34 record and a 3.64 ERA in 102 starts in three seasons with Oakland. Haren is 49-44 with a 3.82 ERA in 130 career appearances, 121 starts.
Robertson made his Major League debut with Oakland last year and posted an 18.00 ERA in three relief appearances before breaking his thumb. He spent the balance of the season at Triple-A Sacramento where he went 4-1 with two saves and a 4.35 ERA in 31 relief appearances. The 26-year old Robertson was originally drafted by the A’s in the 31st round of the June, 2004 draft.
Anderson was the Diamondbacks 2nd round selection in the 2006 First Year Player Draft but did not sign until September 1 of that year. He made his professional debut in 2007 and combined for an 11-7 record and a 3.07 ERA in 23 starts for Single-A South Bend and Single-A Visalia. The 19-year old right-hander struck out 125 and walked just 21 in 120.1 innings.
Carter spent the 2007 season at Single-A Kannapolis in the Chicago White Sox organization and hit .291 with 25 home runs and 93 RBI in 126 games. He was named to the South Atlantic League postseason All-Star team after finishing third in the league in home runs and tied for third in RBI. Originally drafted by the White Sox in the 15th round of the 2005 draft, the 20-year old right-handed hitting infielder was traded to Arizona for Carlos Quentin on December 3, 2007.
Cunningham began the 2007 season in the White Sox organization before he was traded to the Diamondbacks on June 16. He combined to hit .308 with 16 home runs and 77 RBI in 127 games with Single-A Winston-Salem, Single-A Visalia and Double-A Mobile. The 21-year old right-handed hitting outfielder was drafted by the White Sox in the 6th round of the 2005 draft and has a .304 career batting average in three seasons in the minors.
Eveland spent nearly three months of last season on the disabled list at Triple-A Tucson with a strained left middle finger but did make five appearances, including one start, over two stints with Arizona. He was 1-0 with a 14.40 ERA with the Diamondbacks and 1-0 with a 1.65 ERA in nine games, seven starts, with Tucson and Single-A Visalia. The 24-year old left-hander pitched for Milwaukee in 2005 and 2006 and is 2-4 with a 7.55 ERA in 41 career appearances, six starts, in his Major League career.
Gonzalez spent most of the 2007 season at Double-A Mobile where he batted .286 with 16 home runs and 75 RBI in 120 games. He tied for the Southern League lead in doubles (33) and extra base hits (52) and earned a late season promotion to Triple-A Tucson where he batted .310 with a home run and 11 RBI in 10 games. The 22-year old native of Venezuela is a .286 career hitter with 74 home runs and 354 RBI in 540 games in five seasons in the minor leagues.
Smith split last season between Double-A Mobile and Triple-A Tucson and combined at both stops for a 9-5 record and a 3.54 ERA in 22 games, all starts. He was 14-4 with a 2.55 ERA in 24 starts in 2006, including a perfect 9-0 record and a 1.63 ERA in 13 starts with Single-A Lancaster. The 23-year old left-hander was originally drafted by Arizona in the 6th round of the 2005 draft and has a career record of 31-14 with a 3.27 ERA in 62 appearances, 60 starts, over three professional seasons.
Eveland and Gonzalez were added to the A’s 40-man roster, which now stands at 40.
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Thanks, A23
Now we have the official word...but it still seems to be trading quality for quantity.
Can one conclude from this that the news on Harden and/or other parts of the health meeting was not encouraging?
I think it's now official.
We suck.
they should
I was actually holding out a faint hope
that you would tell me I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about and that this was a great trade. You can still do all those things, but I won't read it because I'll be busy knitting a noose.
LOL...sure you can.
I've done it on several occasions. Most of them know it's bullshit, but they're happy to hear it anyway.
Embree
Embree most likely wont start the year with the team ether.
by Threepwood XX on Dec 14, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions
Might be too early to tell
Most of these guys are pretty young.
Be honest...
it's a deal that right now pending a miracle looks worse than the Huddy deal....
we went from Lester et al, Kershaw et al, Hughes et al to someone who just wanted to make a move for headline's sake.
The only happy thing I see is that at least we gave the D'backs one heck of a shot at being the WS champs for the next two years.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
We went from the hyped LA/NY prospect to AZ ones.
I understand your frustration--I feel like I got punched in the stomach--but we don't know enough about these guys to come to a conclusion yet. We all thought the Hudson trade was better than it was, and possibly underestimated the Mulder trade.
I don't agree
I don't like this trade either, because I'd rather have swung for the fences this year.
But we got back a Very nice haul. Anderson in particular is a gem.
I have to agree
I think that the A's got a good return in this trade. Maybe it wasn't what everybody was fantasizing about, but from what I can see on these guys, looks pretty good to me. Supposedly, these guys are five of AZ's top ten prospects, especially the Gonzalez kid.
Anyways, I was just waiting for this to happen and now I'm relieved. Fairwell Mr. Haren........I'll miss you!
AZ kept their top 3 prospects
Billy must have been in a hurry!
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
Wow...Gonna be ugly til 2010 or so....
Sure would have liked one of the elite prospects from Bos or NYY..but maybe I just havent heard of these guys enough
Well, spring training should be fun this year
Lots of interesting new names to check out. Only 76 days until the first ST game.
The 2008 regular season...hmmm, could be a long year.
Is this the blow-up I've been dreading?
Ok, I know nothing about these guys (which is probably a bad sigh). Are we officially out of contention??
Not if you're a rivercat fan.
WAAAAAAAAA!!!!
sob, cry, *sob
BB go to soccer NOW!
I'm sorry but I need to vent. I'm all for trading someone for value. What we got was garbage for a cheap ace and staff leader who is hardly injured. I hope I'll end up eating my words in two or three years but right now... all I'll say is that I'm concerned (for lack of a stronger, less family friendly word). We just traded someone who wanted to be an A for crap and gave up being competitive until at least 2010.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 3:41 PM PST reply actions
We didn't get garbage
You have every right to be pissed, because I know you considered the A's to be contenders in 2008 and now they almost certainly aren't. Beane got very talented players back, though.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 14, 2007 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
No..
we got players who we hope will turn into something useful. I have to agree with those who believe that the return was nowhere what it should have been to acquire Danny. What we received was quantity and not quality. I highly doubt the package we received would have been enough for Bedard or Santana... that's what I disagree with strongly.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
The negotiation
I've been thinking it was a mistake to set the trading bar so high on Haren... that it would scare away his potential best offer before talks even start.
Don't know if this trade validates or refutes that, but I don't like it much.
Sad day...
Man, after Mitchell I figured things were going to get better not worse. Ugly day for us A's fans who had any hopes of contending in 2008. Oh well, at least there is good news....
NO BARRY BONDS!!!!!
Actually, I sort of thought
keeping Haren and signing Bonds would have been good news.
That would have been the last straw for me
by signing Barry just would have been the knife in the heart as an A's fan. I'm glad to see that he'll be hanging out at the courthouse and not the clubhouse this year!
Well, in turn
you get a team that will be under .500 for multiple years.
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
I'll take that...
over one year of Bonds any day, week, or month of the year. That man (and I use the term "man" loosely) is pure evil.
Fair enough...
Very easy to say now...A lot harder to say in August in a 5 game losing streak and 18 games behind the Angels.
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
Or having to suffer through a 90+ loss season...
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Honestly, I've been through 90+ losing seasons...
both in Milwaukee and with the A's (yes I was a fan during the 77-79 era), and I would take that than have BB sitting in his chair in the A's dugout. I would have given my spring training tickets to anyone...you can check my profile and see the see the seats...
Thanks Rickey35
As a fellow sufferer of that 54-108 1979 season, I feared that I might be the only one who felt that way.
I love my team, and have for three decades. It isn't always about winning.
One of the things I like about following this organization is: if you don't like the character and makeup of the team, just wait a few years, and it will be fresh, new and exciting again.
My favorite season over the past 10 years was the '99 season, when you could just feel the confidence of a very young, up-and coming team starting to build. '08 may be a wash (and I can live with that) but '09 is shaping up to be a lot like that '99 club.
Remember, a scrawny kid named Hudson came up in June of that season, without much previous fanfare, and helped ignite the 99-06 run of good to great teams.
A's fans get spoiled. The Pirates haven't had a winning season since 1992!! We caught the tail end of one great era, and have experienced another one in that same span of time.
It's going to be fun watching a bunch of young kids grow again.
You guys are not alone.
Not that Bonds helped SF win much over the last few, but anyway...
NSOTM
(Non Sequiter of the month)
Bonds as pure evil?
You my friend have lived a very sheltered life. He's not even close to being evil. Mildly annoying....maybe.
Yes I have...
And thank God for that.
Anyone who uses their children for their own selfish benefit is evil in my book.
I feel so sorry for his kids.
as someone who (still) would like to see bonds
damnit
well, i think this means no bonds. damnit x2.
and we might as well trade blanton, and maybe even street and ellis. and embree.
there's no point in only going halfway with rebuilding, start assembling a team for fremont 2011.
Agreed...
Dealing Blanton now is a must...
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
I hear ya
If Gonzalez doesn't pan out I don't think the A's got enough pitching back to justify the move. Anderson's good but a couple years away and Smith is... well, OK. Maybe.
Can Eveland show more than he has so far? Hope so.
Don't expect much from Eveland...
Having watched him for two years in Milwaukee (I live here) what I could see was a guy who has the talent, but between the ears is the problem, and the fact that he can't push himself away from the dinner table. If he drops 25-30 pounds and actually plays like he cares, then he'll be good, but right now he's AAAA player.
Wasn't the same thing said...
About Blanton after his rookie season?
yeah, but Blanton hasn't been traded twice
in less than a year, which is something the Brewers and D-Backs both found out. I'm not saying that he'll never be good, but dude, get in shape!
AAAA player
I think we have enough of those...
by sf drift king on Dec 15, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
I really think the meeting
was to tell everybody about the future, not to "assess team health".
or maybe they DID assess team health
let's face it, haren and blanton's future with the a's being dependent on the health of chavez, harden, duke, crosby and kotsay was NOT a good sign.
what are the chances those guys are healthy and productive next year? 15%?
Yep...
...they had a quality pitcher in Danny Haren, but no one to back him up. HAD to trade for prospects.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
And these minor leaguers are absolutely
the best offer Beane could expect over the next 12 months.
...sure. oh yeah.
Are you and Beane SoCal buddies?
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
"Are you and Beane SoCal buddies?"
Perhaps they had already assessed health
..and used the meeting to communicate the team's direction with the players.
We're officially stuck in Limbo ....
... looks like we might be stuck in anonymity until the A's make their move down to Fremont ... I need to find something better to pay attention to in the summer for a few years anyway ...
by codedfreaq on Dec 14, 2007 3:43 PM PST reply actions
Speculation Turns Into Reality
All of the hundred's of posts, & our Ace is actually traded. Grover, you are correct on Blanton going next. I only wish the best to Dan Haren. It looks like we got a plethora of prospects. I hope a couple of them pan out.
TNSTAAPP (2)
There's no such thing as a plethora of prospects.
Or am I just being pedantic about the correct definition of "plethora"?
Bounty? Excess? Abundance? Plenty?
Boatload, Truckload, buttload, cheaper by the half-dozen, Motherlode? I surely hope so.
OK, I guess I'm being too subtle.
Inherent in the meaning of plethora is that there's too much of it. I'm saying you can never have too many prospects. Sounds like toolboxer read my post as exactly the opposite of what I meant.
100% Agreement
The bloggers over at The Snake Pit, all five of them are estatic over this deal. To think that Mulder has yielded the A's nine players so far, is mind altering. We are now literally talking about the six degrees of separation. Who knows what these six players will end up netting the A's. It might end up being an entire 25 man roster. Here's to good health & blessings to the Haren 6.
My take
Billy got a lot of potential in this trade, but his scouts had better be right. Gonzalez and Anderson are the centerpieces, and both have the potential to be stars. Carter is a real sleeper, and could develop into a stud hitter.
It's really hard to evaluate a deal like this at the time it is made. It's hard to see how the A's field a competitive team in 2008 without other deals, but the A's just added some real talent to an organization that desperately needs it.
Beane bought a lot of bulk though
Carter is a ways away. Gonzo is the key to the deal. (Yes, I have hereby dubbed him Gonzo. We need more muppets!)
Smith and Eveland... bordering on meh.
Even a lackadasical fan like me
Can find the veterans who were solid, healthy stars, only to get "run over while covering 1st base" etc. and never performed as well. Haren, like every player, is vulnerable to the unexpected, even out of ST (see Ellis, Mark, "collision with Crosby"). Look at high-salaried Mike Hampton. So it is best IMO to get as much as possible for a prime player when the rest of the club is medically marginal. Harden must've given no assurances Tuesday, Chavez has three surgeries, previous to this never having gone under the knife (and it wasn't as if a collision caused his need for surgery, like the case of Mark Ellis).
I think the lack of a Santana trade drooped the stakes of the "rejoinder is Haren" potential trades.
The A's Front Office does well, even if they only bat .750 on these deals.
by One won lost won on Dec 14, 2007 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
BOO HOO!
Dan the Man, our A's 2007 All-Star, I miss you already!
Happy trails...........
First thought...
"Well... so much for this season.".
Time will tell if my skepticism is correct, but the initial gut feeling is rarely wrong.
I don't buy that this team is toast for several years, but part of the reason for getting Haren was to be able to compete now. What I fear most is that the team is regressing into perennial rebuild-mode and being nothing more than a AAAA team for others with more will to win.
Prennial rebuild-mode?
Please enlighten me as to when the last time was we rebuilt under Beane. And don't mention Hudson/Mulder because we received MLB-ready talent in return. Blanton will probably be traded, Street as well, and the prospects we receive in return for them could be very nice and it's still possible that we can compete this next year. When I say compete I mean somewhere around 80-85 wins. Time will tell...
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
The part where you said
regressing into perennial rebuild mode. I don't know how you can see perennial when this is the first time we're truly about to rebuild.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2007 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
Well, the first time ...
since the last time ...
No
what went through my mind was that they're trying to build a dynasty up there in Sacramento. They'll be Pacific League Champions for years to come..
by sf drift king on Dec 15, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
ok NOW I'm through being an A's fan
well, not really.
But geez, does it ever end around here?
Well, we had a good run, right?
Multiple years in a row of competitiveness... now multiple years in a row of sucking.
Billy may have made a good business decision, but this is really hard to take in the short term. Oh, well.
Okay, but seriously?
Haren could be the best ace he could be, and couldn't do a darn thing about the crappy team last year.
What has changed for this year? Nothing! No matter how well Haren would have pitched for 2008, there is no way he could make much of a difference if the 9 guys behind him can't hit!
Beane probably took the best deal he could, and rebuilt our farm system with the best players he could get from our ONE bargaining chip.
Of course we hate to lose players; it sucks, but at some point, you have to trade what you can for the future, and this is NOT a deal that can immediately be evaluated.
We weren't in the running for 2008 with Haren.
Nice to see....
Some sound logic amidst all the Chicken Little's around here. Thanks BG!!
+1
Are the Athletics even going to field a team this year??!!!
by One won lost won on Dec 14, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
This is all true...
But a lot of A's fans are VERY spoiled as they have been in competition in every season since 2000 or so....This is rebuildign and will be ugly for a while. Easy to say it's ok now....but it will be a long summer and the games wont be very interesting from a standings perspective.
I think Beane is likely doing the right thing for the franchise going into Fremont, but I also think people are underestimating how tough rebuilding can be. Last year will look pretty compared to 08.
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
They'll understand soon enough...
...when Chavez, Street and DJ get dealt.
what's more ...
... Haren was never projected to do as well as he did last year, and Beane could have figured (accurately or not; we won't know for several years) that Haren just had his career year.
And, just for the sake of continuing my string of irresponsible speculations, maybe Beane had other good reasons to get rid of Haren ...
career year, maybe
but haren has pretty much established a consistent level of production over the last three seasons.
oh, I agree
Just speculatin' as to Beane's thinking.
What?
We already knew about the Performance-Detracing Substance.
by Englishmajor on Dec 14, 2007 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
Detracting. Sorry.
by Englishmajor on Dec 14, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
Haren's league rank
in ERA was 14th, 15th, and 3rd. He was also top ten all three years in innings pitched, in strikeouts, and in strikeout/walk ratio. Even if his 2007 ERA benefited from a bit of luck, there's every reason to assume he'll continue to be a top-flight pitcher.
It's possible that his second-half swoon was a sign that all the innings were catching up to him, a la Mulder in 2004, but I doubt it. Haren's peripherals were still good; Mulder was a mess.
I agree with ya M-Ball
I was pi$$ed at the Huddy/mulder deals, but I am willing to give BB the benefit of doubt. I am also sure that the check up on the broke players must not have been good. I wonder who is next to go, street, blanton, embree, swisher?
Here, here......
Undoubtedly. Beane saw way too many holes on the team to pass up this deal.......I really have a feeling that this trade will look good in the long run.
But I'm still really sad that Dannyboy is gone........
:(
There, there
Or Major Major?
...can't have too many DH/1B/LF types
Midland should do well this year.
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
Completely disagree.
Add Bonds, and watch the continued development of Buck and Barton, sprinkled in with a full year of Cust, and you have a contender.
not so bad?
folks at baseball think factory seem to think beane got quite a bit of talent in return for haren:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...
Yeah, he did.
Anderson and Gonzalez are both good prospects and Cunningham and Carter have a chance of turning into mashers.
by Graham MacAree on Dec 14, 2007 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
minorleagueball.com
http://www.minorleagueball.com/story...
From Minor League Blog:
Some of the other assets being the deal being sent to the A's are nice. But I don't see anyone with much likelihood of being an allstar.
If the A's ran their draft better they'd have guys like Cunningham, Smith and Carter and wouldn't have to deal a hot property for them. They weren't early picks.
by McLovin on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 06:32:40 PM CDT
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
so this comment from mclovin is such a big deal
http://www.athleticsnation.com/comments/2007/12/14/203356/98/27#c27
An interesting observation there
Good news for those who have Haren in a keeper roto league, getting him into the NL West.
Unless its an AL only league
And then you just jumped....
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
Baseball America Rankings ...
Among D-Backs Prospects:
Gonzalez #1 (best power hitter, best outfield arm)
Anderson #3 (best slider, best control)
Cunningham #7
Carter #8
Eveland NR
Smith NR
My Top 10
Gonzo
Barton
Anderson
Cahill
Simmons
Herrera
Brown
Bailey
Brown
Belvins
by Threepwood XX on Dec 14, 2007 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
Hmmm....
What are they chances they lower ticket prices this year ... I mean, who wants to pay Big League money for a team full of nobodies? I'm sure Lew Wolf is gonna make that happen ....
by codedfreaq on Dec 14, 2007 4:02 PM PST reply actions
They do it in...
Kansas City and Pittsburgh, year after year after year.
They do??
Pittsburgh in a brand new stadium: 27th in attendance.
Kansas City: 28th in attendance.
So no, they dont come out to watch there.
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 4:07 PM PST up reply actions
So how is Oakland any different?
he club has done nothing but win for a decade, and no one shows up anyway. Where's the incentive to lower ticket prices?
I'm not disagreeing with you...I think lower ticket prices make perfect sense. But it just isn't going happen in this current era of indescribable corporate greed.
Next year
Haren will be a monster in the NL, especially with the maturing Arizona offense behind him. I think he'll contend for the Cy Young.
Oy vey
I can't wait for some detailed analysis. It really is a shocking move, especially considering grover's point about Kuroda's placement affecting the D-Backs' leverage. Any chance Beane is trying to play the NL West bidders against each other? Trying to lure the Dodgers into a Blanton deal by providing Arizona with a scary one-two punch? Maybe push them to trade future for present?
Either way...my favourite player just got traded on my birthday. Lame.
K-mart blue lite special
I am and always will be a rabid fan of the A's. This trade has made it very clear to me....Make the A's just good enough to fill the seats...but don't spend the big money to be a W.S. contender.
At least He is in the National League and we won't have to face him several times a year.
I wish nothing but the best For Dan and hope he does well in Arizona.
by opiewannabe on Dec 14, 2007 4:02 PM PST reply actions
huh? actually, one could argue
that if we HAD stayed pat, we would have been just good enough to fill seats, but not contend for a WS.
The goal of this trade, right or wrong, is to get the team to be good enough, in the future, to make it to the world series, since we can't do it now.
Thank you.
Yes, exactly.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
The Kool Aid is strong today
The 97% ownership could care less.
The 3% ownership, Beane, Can't win big in the majors because his methodology does not serve that end
...and you forget he has a new love: soccer stadiums.
Go Quakes!
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
So too is the negativity.
What would you like, more of what we had last season?
I'll take a rough year in the hope we just got ourselves half a team of future stars.
Nice tag line
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 7:32 PM PST up reply actions
Ummm, why Ariz.?
I knew Haren would go but to the D-Backs? And we couldn't even pry Justin Upton or Chris Young or even Valverde (who went to Houston today)?
I was hoping Haren would go to LA in exchange for a package headlined by Kemp and/or Kershaw.
I have a feeling Street is next...
by knowledge24 on Dec 14, 2007 4:03 PM PST reply actions
Exactly..
the fact that BB didn't hold out for a Upton or Young type of player is the most concerning. It just signals (to me at least) that BB was going to trade Danny no matter what and regardless of what he got back. It's a headline grabbing desperation of a move and one, as a fan, which is hard to see. Now will I be proven wrong in two years or so? Maybe and as a fan I hope I am. However, right now, with what is being offered for Bedard and Santana (among others) it's just sad to see how impatient BB was.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
that makes no sense at all
"It's a headline grabbing desperation of a move"
- When has Beane ever made any sort of a roster move designed to attract attention or generate positive PR?
- When has Beane made any sort of franchise move designed to attract attention or generate positive PR?
- How, exactly, does this move generate positive PR? Are you arguing that Beane wanted bad PR?
- Regardless of the quality of the prospects achieved, their value was irrelevant to the trade?
- How, exactly, was this move "desperate"?
no it makes sense
beane was worried about negative PR surrounding cust being mentioned in the mitchell report, so he's attracting attention away from that by generating even more negative PR, trading the team's player for six guys none of the public and mainstream media have heard of. a plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies.
Um, no way
Beane doesn't do headline-grabbing moves, he does moves that he thinks will help the team. How is this trade a move that Beane wants in the headlines? That doesn't make sense.
by Philip Christy on Dec 14, 2007 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm incapable of looking on any bright side.
Haren was my favorite player. Now I'm depressed.
Last P to be traded after starting AS game was ..
Mulder. In the deal that brought Haren to Oakland.
by TacoBellManager on Dec 14, 2007 4:04 PM PST reply actions
I don't think Eveland is the next Haren
Anderson might be the next Mulder (healthy version) but that's 2 years away.
When we traded Mulder, we received 3
players, Haren included, and Mulder had more years of effectiveness. we now trade Haren, and get 5 of the top 10 prospects from the Diamondbacks, and people are jumping off bridges. Noone expected Haren to be as good, and if he reverts back to 2006, when he was average, versus 2007, when he was better than he has EVER been in his career, then this will be a bad trade, but noone but A's fans see Haren as a #1 starter, he is a good 3, better than average 2.
wait...
i understand your general point, but i wouldn't say haren was just average in 2006. i mean, i guess his ERA+ was only 108 that year, but he's a 4 k/bb guy who gives you 220 ip a year.
He was not just average...
...but his numbers were skewed from the first half, where there were a couple of fluky ERA issues. (Game 1, 4 unearned runs, etc).
He's a VERY good pitcher, and a workhorse, no doubt.
But not dominant like Santana/Lackey/C.C./Beckett.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yes.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
Thank you!
I give Haren a little more credit than you do, but I feel basically the same way. I think he's a pretty solid #2, but I think the first half of last season wasn't indicative of his norm.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
Well better than average is solid, right.
by theblackpearl on Dec 14, 2007 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Heh...
I actually think he is one of the better #2's, but not quite at the elite #1 level, although he is better than anyone we will have starting for the A's.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:41 PM PST up reply actions
If Harden makes 1 start
he is better than Haren. I see your point of course, I was just picking ze nits.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
Beane must trade Blanton and Street now
The Mets will probably jump at Blanton. Not sure where Street could end up.
AGREED!
Street & Blanton are the only two A's really worth anything right now. Get what we can from them, and let the chips fall where they may.
Spring Training should be fun--tons of guys competing for spots.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
not the only two
what about embree and ellis? both have relatively high value at the moment and probably will not be a part of any playoff-level a's team.
yup,
the OF/1B for 2010-12 is filling up quick....
he'll bring a better haul than ...
... any of the remaining trade chips.
swish isn't going anywhere
I sure hope not
I am not panicking about Haren leaving, but Swisher has too many years and too much upside to consider trading. I hope.
I'd say trade Chavez, but he's probably not worth a lot. And if he's healthy he can produce for us. 11 million dollars isn't as much as it was a few years ago, so we could get a bargain if he makes a good comeback.
The retard SF Giants just offered about 12M a year to Rowand.
If the A's could get a legit prospect for Street and Blanton, I'd be pretty satisfied. Doesn't mean the A's would be great anytime soon but it's about all we can expect for now.
by Borbass on Dec 14, 2007 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
chavez?
you sell high, not sell as low as possible. we wouldn't get anything in return for him right now, whereas even when he's absolute crap like last year, chavy still put up a 102 OPS+. zips doesn't project rowand above 100 for a single year of his new contract.
as for swisher, i think the perception is that his value has declined from 06 to 07. i have no idea how the a's actually feel about him at the moment...
The question is...
..if you hold Chavez for another year, what are the chances he'll end the season in better shape than he's been in the last two?
Side note: If selling 'high' is the object, it makes perfect sense to deal Haren.
Nyuk.
yeah, that's my worry about Chavez
All things considered, it probably does make more sense to wait and hope he recovers and demonstrates an uptick in value -- but there's a chance he might not.
Hmm...I was thinking pitchers, but yeah.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Street will be a Yankee.
They get a real setup man for Mo, and an heir apparent as well.
Okay.
I think I need to just stay away from the computer for a few days, before I forget what my sig line means.
I'm taking my wife dancing
The bleedings just started folks, have fun while you can.
Wow what a lame headline to have to read
After hearing Beane would not trade Haren or Blanton without being "blown away" and hearing that he was asking for the same if not more than what was being asked for Santana I am so pissed. Not one major league player in the deal. I don't care how good the prospects are, this could not be a more clear, we really don't give a shit about 2008 move by A's brass.
This team was set up to compete in 2008 even without a major addition, certainly not with this major subtraction.
I am officially PISSED OFF!
I understand the disappointment...
But boy do I disagree about 08..I dont think they were competing without a major addition.....81 wins or so maybe, but not seriously competing.
by OaktownPower on Dec 14, 2007 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
that's debatable
The A's are counting on health and unlikely production from far too many players to say they would compete without a major addition.
It would be nice to see a few more moves to make things really interesting, but something needed to be done to replenish the farm system and we got a few legit guys out of this.
Haren could have stayed and would likely pitch very well, but what would that do for the team ultimately? He'd be gone for a fortune and we'd have a few 85-win seasons to show for it, at best.
by Borbass on Dec 14, 2007 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
He at least would have given us a reason to
watch every fifth day...
Now, nothing. Trade everyone. The A's are the Royals for the next 5 years.
is that you ray ratto?
have people already forgotten when ratto predicted the a's would win 65 games and called them the kansas city royals west after the hudson and mulder trades?
haha
Your screen name speaks loud and clear, buddy. We'll be glad when the A's are still keeping things interesting in 2010.
The ship started sinking in 2006 but we got really lucky with Frank Thomas. 2007 was more of the same minus Frank and we were in big trouble. 2008 without big change would be 2007 pt. II, most likely.
We do NOT want to be the Giants, making good-hearted but ultimately pointless acquisitions to stay "competitive." An at least minor overhaul is required at this point, I think.
by Borbass on Dec 14, 2007 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
i'm looking forward to KNBR tonight.
I bet all the callers are going to be whining, "Why can't Sabean make a smart move like this??" and "Great, we get Rowand and the D-backs get Haren."
waaaaah waaaaaaah
by popcornjames on Dec 14, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions
or hell
the A's could actually spend some money for a change.
Money = nonissue here
It's not like there was anyone on the FA market worth giving major bucks to. None of the major holes were "solvable" through money, at least not this year.
Next year, the A's had better make a run at Sabathia. They've got the ready cash and he's a local kid.
So the question is
why the A's best trading chip wasn't used to address the biggest holes (SS & CF) ?
Don't know all of what I think about the deal yet - its going to have to digest.
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2007 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
Not a chance!
I love the A's more than anyone, but even TO COMPETE with the Angels, they needed:
a) Healthy and productive Eric Chavez
b) Healthy and productive Bobby Crosby
c) Healthy and productive Mark Kotsay
d) Healthy and productive Rich Harden
e) Healthy and productive Justin Duchscherer
Not a chance in the world that a-e all happened in 2008, even with Haren on the team.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
yup
not to mention that Beane would have to be counting on Cust to repeat 07' numbers, Barton to truly produce over a whole season, and T. Buck to not break in half when sliding for a catch...........
and for Swisher to be back at 06' production or better. Everyone needs to relax and try to see the long term value in this deal.
Nonsense
Kotsay is a non-entity, and they would only need 2 or 3 of the other 4 to have a good shot at the playoffs. And even that may seem unlikely, but it's not so wildly improbable that it justifies blowing up the team for some very nebulous future returns.
but Andeux
the A's have not blown up the team yet. check out the link about Slusser's report from A's camp. more to come.............plenty more.
Won't be happening in 2009 or 2010 either.
Warriors are a great night out!
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
looks like my conspiracy theories aren't so crazy
i'll just accept apologies in advance from all those who thought my identification of the conscious dismantling of this team was a bit off target.
congrats, golden state athletics of las vegas, you now really are less exciting and less likely to win the west than a mediocre NCAA team. thanks, lew, you've now really taught us all a lesson. happy?
if only we had traded haren for nook logan...
more like
if only we had traded him for young, belliard, zimmerman (too late) and chico, (none of whom made more than chump change last year, incidentally)
Cept those guys all suck
not counting Zimmerman of course, who is freaking awesome.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
ronnie = .290, dmitri = .320, as for chico
i was actually thinking of cordero
Batting avg = useless stat
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
bolivians feel the same way about seaports
funny how we adjust our expectations to fit our realities
I'm pretty sure you don't even know what you said
Do yourself a favor kid, check this out
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...
Its sorted by runs scored, now look at batting avg. and see that its all over the place in relations to the rankings.
Then look at OBP and see that it more or less heads downwards very closely with runs scored.
You're welcome.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
true suckitude defies easy mathematical formulae
but whatever that magic is, the 2007 a's had it bottled. being unable to hit the ball away from a guy wearing a glove in between the big chalk lines may have had something to do with this.
but, yes, i'm very proud of swish's ability to look at pitches.
If you are saying...
...that the A's sucked in 2007, you're right.
And guess what? It's the same team in 2008 WITH Haren.
Without, at least we have the chance to be good later.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
probably true
winning 72 isn't too much different than winning 76.
i just wish that lew's tantrum didn't mean so much dismal baseball in a division that already was so badly lacking.
So we pretend to care about AVG
as leverage, but really it's all about copper mining.
lol @ batting averages
Pretty hard to trade for a Free Agent
but we can still sign Nookie and have him launch us to the playoffs and beyond!
I would advise any young man
to think long and hard before signing Nookie. The long term ramifications can be a bitch.
Make it a one-year contract!
I still think you're PT's gimmick account
there's no way some one capable of using a computer (granted can only sometimes use capitalization) actually thinks like that.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
If only
I'm far too square to think of something that deviously amusing/annoying.
with Haren gone ...
... Lew is one step closer to his destruction of the Fremont real estate market!!!
Corrected
one step closer to his destruction of in the Fremont real estate market.
I actually don't believe that any more than I believe not ah8ter is cogent. I do, however, believe that Wolffish are preparing to enjoy several years of robust profit-taking on their way to the new digs in Fremont. That does not mean, though, that I think rebuilding is a bad idea...just that it's dovetailing mighty nicely with some ownership wealth building. Almost too nicely...
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
It's pretty obvious, isn't it?
Axiomatic, even. Presuming the Blanton/Street/etc etc dominoes also fall, then payroll declines substantially while revenue changes little, and maybe even increase (per league-wide trend). What do you suppose Wolffish are going to do with the extra operating profit...give Chavez a big raise? Trade for A-Rod? Donate it to the local orphanage? No, they're going to pocket it. There are times in business when it's just smart to profit-take, and this seems like a pretty obvious one for the A's. That the roster needs restocking anyway is nice too, but not in any sort of enjoy a winning team soon sort of way.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
this has been my rant since spring
when it was obvious that the lineup they brought to anaheim - featuring melhuse, buck, and kennedy at the mound - was the baseball equivalent of a losing stock trade for tax breaks.
Yes, but you and I part company pretty sharply
when you suggest ownership wants to be the Devil Rays and lose 100 games, and I suggest that instead their plan is to use cheapness as the means to a winning end.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
i don't know if it's a conscious desire to lose
so much as the fact that it simply isn't a priority, especially relative to the fact that the a's are really just a hood ornament on a speculative real estate venture at this point.
but, hey, the housing bust may be helping to push us into a national depression, maybe the fact that it helped make a team which had already endured the records of the 1930s and 1960s into another similar stretch may not be such a big deal.
white elephant indeed.
Nice touch: "hood ornament"
...throw a tarp on the field and call me in 2 years.
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
Holy Loria Batman!
...shades of the Marlins!
Side note: How is it Seligg still runs MLB when the sports franchises he administers have freely used drugs his 20 or so years on top?
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:57 PM PST up reply actions
But, but...
Beane said that Lew wanted to spend more money on payroll, and Beane was the one exercising fiscal constraint. No one wants to win more than Lew!
I heard Lew wanted to sign A-Rod AND Santana
to big fat new contracts, but Billy didn't want to block Mellilo and diNardo.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 6:11 PM PST up reply actions
I wonder who the next suckers are?
Good luck Fremont. (Vegas, whatever)
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 10:50 PM PST up reply actions
You know,
one or two snarky, context-free comments per thread is really enough. We get the point. You don't like the trade. If you have something else to say, say it. If not, don't.
Actually I like the way Green Bay & (Tribe?)
Stadium Builders that go from community to community chasing big construction deals by buying up the local franchises are reminiscent of the carpet baggers methodical plundering after the civil war.
...less snarky, a little more context.
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Less snarky, but also blatantly false
The whole "carpetbagger" trope was a myth invented by white supremacist Southern historians in the period from 1890 to 1920. The Reconstruction governments were more inclusive, more pluralistic, less corrupt, better for the average citizen, and better for the local economies than the white governments that succeeded them.
Whoops.
Next time I'll run my cliches by you first.
I prefer community ownership over R.E. Developers.
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions
Sure
Me too. (Well, except for the "RE" part, cause I'm not sure what that stands for.)
R. E.
by A s Eh on Dec 19, 2007 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
Who doesn't?
I'd buy some shares ...
i never thought you were crazy
by ucla kid on Dec 14, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
What's hilarious about this
is the fact that you really love the Nationals for some reason.
they took a horrible stadium in its last year
a AA pitching staff and a motley crew of underpaid infielders and knocked out a team that the pecota computer had at 99% postseason odds at one point. all after being projected to win less than 60.
forgive me if that's a little more exciting and impressive than a team going from the ALCS to 40-41 at home with a AAA adam dunn impersonator as the centerpiece.
i really loved the 2002-2006 A's too
something about overcoming a crappy stadium, fan apathy, lack of obvious stars with a combination of grit, underrated talent and love of the game...
wtf???
okay, this is clearly a joke account.
I came to this conclusion bout 1/2 an hour ago
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
In researching notah8er
I came across this September thread in which the "pay to contend now" versus "profit take and contend later" versus "suck cash and suck on the field" theories are pretty elegantly discussed. I think the profit prophets come off nicely, of course, but I'm biased.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 6:27 PM PST up reply actions
i hear devry offers a degree in me
ntah8rology
Yes, but you risk getting a bad blockage
and needing an emergency notah8terostomy. And then those bags are just gross.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
anyone who can endure cust's baserunning
should find it familiar and relatively painless
93% of graduates
have a well-paying job in the notah8er industry within six months after graduation.
wow
Harden's even having injuries in the off season, pretty pathetic. I can see why BB decided to roll the dice and start over. Too many injuries to overcome at once.
by sf drift king on Dec 15, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
Thoughts
I guess as an A's fan something like this shouldn't really surprise me. Blanton's probably going soon, too.
The 'quantity for quality' thing isn't a terrible strategy but it just happens over and over again. I thought Haren would be the next ace the A's build around, but now he's gone. Part of me wonders if Beane saw something last year after Haren pitched so well up to the All-Star Break and then slipped a bit afterward. Or, he saw a chance to basically give up one guy for six (Connor Robertson is secondary by far) prospects, some of which rate pretty high.
It's the pattern the A's seem to be determined to stick with. Cycle good young players in and out over and over again. It's hard to argue but it's not like they had to hurry to unload Haren, which really makes it look like Beane's reloading or, again, saw something with Haren we might not have. Still, it's frustrating.
do you think theres any truth to the rumor that
the A's are notorious for giving huge workloads to starters? That their "arms wear out" (see Huddy and Mulder's early goings with their new teams)?
I'm not a numbers cruncher, so I don't know how Total IP per season look across the league; but I'm just wondering if the A's shelf-life for some of these players are based on how they are used (i.e. state of the bullpen, unique game situations, etc).
by popcornjames on Dec 14, 2007 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Hard to say.
Some of them do pitch a lot of innings but I can't say there's any clear evidence it's a big factor.
You do realize that Hudson
had a 3.33 ERA this season, right?
He had an off year in '06. He's still a freaking good pitcher. I'd sign him as a free agent to his current contract in a New York minute.
for perspective
by username on Dec 14, 2007 4:32 PM PST reply actions
So very true
I remember the exact feeling when that trade and the Hudson trade went down. I expect there will be another stunner in the next couple days.
bummer.
The reaction is the same
about this team that "we" over-value the players?
i mean, this fuckin' trade just plain stinks like a true salary dump. plain and simple.
On days like these I really miss "oaktoon".by bigelephant on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 04:52:19 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
are we so "over-the-top" by bigelephant, Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 04:52:19 PM PDT (1.25 / 0)
[new]No (1.25 / 0)
But Beane set the price when he traded Hudson. I think this is a better package than we got from Atlanta but Beane couldn't push it higher because of his previous deal.
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.by grover on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 04:55:11 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
[new]do ya REALLY think it's better??? (1.25 / 0)
this haren doesn't look like anything special and the other dude is a bullpen guy- good numbers like cruz.
haren better than meyer?On days like these I really miss "oaktoon".
by bigelephant on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 04:59:06 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
[new]Haren = Meyer (1.25 / 0)
But Barton is the type of prospect I wanted Beane to get the first time around instead of Thomas.
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.by grover on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 05:01:19 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
[new]agreement again (1.25 / 0)
I find this to be just a mind boggling deal?? What did we get besides a 1 inning set-up guy???
Beane's World!! Excellent!!! Rock On, Beane! Rock On, Geren!by Satchmo22 on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 05:01:19 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
[new]fuck, i gotta believe... (1.25 / 0)
...beane is settin' something up here.
i mean, there is re-tooling- and then, there's
RE-TOOLING.but, i think beane is loving this in his own, deep, dark way. i really think that he wants to rip this all down and start again.
On days like these I really miss "oaktoon".
by bigelephant on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 05:05:32 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
[new]Well I hear it all the time (1.25 / 0)
'If it weren't for the Big 3 Billy wouldn't be so respected as this great G.M.'
Well maybe he wants to prove he can do it again.by CDN Athletics Fan on Sat Dec 18, 2004 at 05:08:00 PM PDT
by theblackpearl on Dec 14, 2007 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
Well
The direst pessimists, the Rattos predicting 100 losses, were certainly wrong back then.
On the other hand, the optimistic take, as I recall it, was along the lines of "sure, it will hurt us in 2005, but just wait until 2006-2008, those teams are going to be GREAT."
They were partially right. The 2006 team reached the ALCS, after all. But just a year later, here we are in the middle of that period when we're supposed to be a perennial powerhouse, and we're already trading one of the jewels of that deal away, just as the other one is ready to contribute.
And I can't see any reason not to expect the same thing to happen again 3 years from now. In fact, it seems to me there was a lot more reason to be optimistic about the future then than there is now. Even after this trade, our system isn't exactly loaded with high-ceiling prospects, especially at the key positions (SS, CF, and starting pitchers).
yeah but that had nothing to do with
the players we got in the trades. crosby was here at SS either way.
the players we got helped us more over the last three years than hudson and mulder would have (for 1 and 2 years, respectively), and we still have barton and meyer.
Do you think
the same will be true in this case? (serious question)
I don't.
Gonzalez+Eveland doesn't rate to be as valuable in the short term as Haren, and the other good prospects look like they're a couple of years away.
Since you seem to like thinking in terms of economics: I think there needs to be some kind of discount rate applied to a player's ultimate value. Not only because prospects might fail to pan out, but also because, from this fan's point of view at least, a win now is more valuable than a win three years down the road, even if the latter is guaranteed.
I don't think that really makes sense
The point of discount rates is that there's some relatively steady long term interest rate, and I don't see anything analagous for wins in baseball.
The discount for failing to pan out could be an "expected value" type of calculation. And I for one value a win three years from now as much as one next year.
My initial take is that I basically agree with your pessimism about how good the team is likely to be in 3-4 years. I don't see a lot of upside, especially since the ostensible upside is a corner of. This trade clearly isn't intended like the last one was to be competetive right away.
I think you're begging the question
Why is there a relatively steady long-term interest rate? Is it just because of uncertainty (as you suggest) or because psychologically people generally value "X today" more than "X 3 years from now"?
That's true,
but it's an irrational valuation in some sense if you disregard the uncertainty. If you pass up 2 utility points at time 2 for one utility point now all else equal, that isn't rational. Me right now is in some sense "really me" whereas "me in three years" is someone different, such that "me right now" is willing to sacrifice his interests and decrease total utility.
Article by economist and my favorite philosopher
http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/social-...
i don't read things that are sideways
acrobat can flip it for you
like an acrobat
but really, no one is going to read that
No way. That is one stuck-up grape.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Dec 14, 2007 7:17 PM PST up reply actions
if the players are all 2-4 years away ...
... and, as well assume, other dominoes are going to fall, then how much does it really matter what position the guys in this (first) deal play?
Because here is what we're missing right now
from the 2-4 year nucleus.
Plus C.
Plus 2B (Ellis won't hit much in 3-4 years if resigned.
Any SS.
Any CF.
Plus (or any) 3B.
Top SP.
On offense we now have Barton, Buck, Swisher, Cust (probably not in the picture by then), Gonzales, Cunningham, and Carter who are now the top hitters in the organization, but none of whom play one of the key defensive positions. I don't think Blanton + Street + Swisher are going to be able to fill all of the above holes, and it's hard to trade 1B/DH depth when there's not much room to get the guys you want to trade into the lineup in the first place. I think only getting 3 1B/corner OF guys as the offensive part of trading the best trade chip was a failure.
To clarify
I'm not saying: the team's holes right now are SS and CF (Crosby and Kotsay), but that we don't really have anyone lined up there in the future, and generally those are very important positions to plan for.
I really see no problem
with an outfield of Gonzalez-Buck-Swisher.
You can't look at fielders in isolation. A mediocre CF surrounded by two plus corner guys is an entirely different kettle of fish from a mediocre CF surrounded by Bonds and Jack Cust.
discount rate to a player's value
believe it or not, just a few hours ago i was chatting with a buddy who is a stats postdoc at harvard and we discussed whether there is a discount on future utility when trading for prospects and how that applies to both the mulder-haren trade and a future haren trade. i think we would both agree with you, and i don't think that would be just from a fan's point of view.
as far as the specifics here, i honestly know next to nothing about all six players (same as the six from the mulder-hudson trades) right now, but i'll look into them now that they're a's.
i think the big difference between the two is that the a's were trying to retool and remain competitive last time, whereas they may now be in full rebuilding mode (they definitely should be). so the extra wins haren would provide in the short term would also be less valuable, if the team was out of contention.
since wins aren't subject to inflation ...
... presuming, that is, that the 162-game season does not get a COLA-esque increase every year; and since it's difficult to quantify ROI on emotional investment, I'd hazard a guess that guaranteed wins in the future are more valuable than high-risk short-term wins.
How valuable are TO-guaranteed wins?
Less valuable than Joe Namath's
but way more valuable than Anthony Smith's.
F*ck Billy Beane
and the horse he rode in on. That's my first reaction. The only thing that could make me feel better is something that would be a horrible thing. Like Haren gets hurt and misses a lot of the season. Yeah sometimes I can be pretty ugly.
Has a ghost ran through your body and turned you
into someone else? You are normally a very positive force around here. Let's just see what actually happens before freaking out about it : ) The current team was not very good and something had to be done. I hate the idea of Haren leaving but you can count our players with good trade value on one hand.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Dec 14, 2007 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
Hey I was venting.
Hi IM4Oakgal
I would agree to your add-on theory but the offseason has given me time to reflect quite a bit. This team is not very good right now and the question marks are too many. I admire Beane for doing things that I wouldn't have the stomach to do myself. That said... I still think LAA is a pretty average team w/o a healthy Vlad and we may all be upset about this trade if he does miss significant time.
Sprtsnwyn texted me today re: Haren and my stomach immediately felt uneasy. I said we better "cowboy up" because this is the first of many trades. Hopefully BB continues with a major overhaul so that we can all feel this trade was a bright move. To be continued...
by ohtobe21likehuston on Dec 15, 2007 12:07 AM PST up reply actions
i didn't like ownership to begin with
now this happens. digusted ughhhh.........
by ucla kid on Dec 14, 2007 4:34 PM PST reply actions
did you not like "ownership"
when the a's traded mulder for haren, barton, and calero?
and how is this ownership and not beane??
isn't beane apart of the ownership now???
correction for the cisco a's of fremont...
by ucla kid on Dec 14, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
first question?
you want an answer for the first question?
i don't comprehend. the first situation was when it was just billy beane, GM. this situation is billy bean, minority owner/GM.
kiko and haren was immediate help. they stepped in right away to help next year. kiko was an established reliever and from what haren did during that year's world series, one can see he had the skill set and mentality to be instant help and he could just step into the rotation without a hitch.
the haren trade in my opinion is different because the main needs for the current team was being healthy and a right hand bat. i've been clicking on the links to this diary, and gonzales seems to be an immediate upgrade but what happened to the rest of the trade? the rest of these guys look like they'll contribute after the move. we have control of haren up to the move to fremont, why can't we wait til say after the allstar break to trade him because the team sucked? wouldn't his value be higher when other GM's are in a "Win-now" state? this trade reeks of stocking the team for fremont. beane is now is concerned with talent and fiscal plausibility to increase revenue, before he was just concerned with talent and staying within budget.
by ucla kid on Dec 14, 2007 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
gah, I was in a final
I can't really tell if this is a good deal or not. I don't like relying on a toolsy guy to put it together for the upside. On the other hand, if we get two average starters out of this, that would be pretty good.
Depressing, though. Twill be a long 2+ years...
Love it.
I look forward to a year when the A's have major-league average or, god forbid, above average hitters.
If this in any way helped. Hooooray!! If it didn't we'll have to try again with Cupcakes.
Yay! Another ten years before...
the A's are relevant again. Just in time for the new stadium!
the a's haven't been relevant in ten years???
wasn't 2006 just ONE year ago?
This is the only reason I don't like these trades
the negative doomsayers return.
by theblackpearl on Dec 14, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
The uneducated doomsayers*
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
You gotta feel bad for Haren
I know this is a business, but Haren and his wife are expecting a child soon, they have a home in the bay area, and Haren publicly said he doesn't want to be traded...Then again the D-Backs have a real chance at going all the way next year
Well
I originally thought the same thing about him wanting to stay in the Bay Area, but for a player on the west coast, Arizona is probably the next best place.
Tons of players live there, from what I understand.
And he could set up shop there and not have to go anywhere for spring training.
by Borbass on Dec 14, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
+1
I thought the same thing regarding Danny and his situation. However, the problem with that thinking is it would require BB to value people and have loyalty and respect for a job well done... in my interpretation, unless your name is Chavez that doesn't exist with BB. And I know someone will counter with something like it's just business... and you are correct, it's business... bad business and will leave a negative mark on the current As, the winning clubhouse atmosphere, and possibly in acquiring future FAs.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
Free Agents
I was thinking the same thing about FAs...but then I remembered, we almost never sign big name free agents, especially not ones we have to convince to come here. The only free agents we get now are those that need us for a one-year contract so they can sign a bigger one a year later.
I wish the Angels could hand the A's...
the division title on a silver platter once in a while.
I wanted to see another WS in Oakland....
it may not be rational
but blame the BaBoH8Rs.
At the rate
at which the other stadium is coming along, you just might.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
Oh my, what a haul by Billy Beane!
Carlos Gonzalez - 25th best prospect in the game!
Chris Carter - 4 Top 100 prospect lists!
Dana Eveland - 3 Top 100 prospect lists!
Aaron Cunningham - 2 Top 100 prospect lists (#38, #43)
http://www.attheplate.com/2007/07_ro...
Brett Anderson made 3 out of 7 Arizona Top 10 prospect lists.
Greg Smith made 1 of 7 Arizona Top 10 prospect lists.
http://www.attheplate.com/2007/07_ro...
We got six prospects that could all make an impact in the majors. Three years down the road, when we become the powerhouse in the AL, we are going to be patting Billy on the back.
I was a Mariners fan when they traded Randy Johnson. Almost every fan was complaining about that deal. But it helped propel them into one of the best teams in the majors. The Mariners got Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama. None of those players were as good a prospect as Carlos Gonzalez. Garcia and Guillen were in the Carter/Eveland range. And Halama was in the Anderson/Smith range.
Amazing deal! We'll probably have a lean year or two. But this is going to be the deal that makes a World Series contender, not just an OK playoff team!
by BillyWannabeane on Dec 14, 2007 4:46 PM PST reply actions
No way was Halama = Anderson
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
The big difference
Unit was traded two months before he would hit free agency. Haren still has three full seasons.
Should I get DirecTV Extra Innings in 08 - 09?
How's it gonna be?
The hammoc by the doorway swings empty.....
Thank you to the person.......
above the went back and read people's reactions after we traded Mulder to get HAREN. for all we know Anderson could be another ace and maybe we wont have to trade him away, because in 3 years he'll still be 22 compared to the 27 yr old Haren. we know we needed to build up our farm system and he is doing just that. Blanton might be traded tomorrow, but IN BILLY WE TRUST.
by bigmacattack @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 4:54 PM PST reply actions
is anyone else getting sick of the cycle of trade
for young, POTENTIALLY good players, only to have them for one of those years (that is if they get there) and then trading them away!!
Can we sign at least a couple of those players every once and a while. All we have ever signed is Chavez. Sure, its small market, but come on.
We can hardly assess the Mulder trade because Haren wasn't even around hardly long enough because we are just such a sad small market story.
Management is really purging payroll huge and this is the first of many moves.
The A's will be in the bottom 3 of payroll in '08, mark my words.
The problem is this...
either you blindly follow BB and spout off "in Billy We Trust" or "there must be a plan" or "maybe he knew something about Danny no one else did"...
or you view the deal as a disaster that should not have happened due to the poor return and the PR aspect of it.
There's no middle ground here and we can go back and forth for pages as to which side is right or wrong, but the bottom line is that it'll have an impact on the As not only in 2008 but in the future.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Haren makes 4 mil in 08
yeah, definitely the sign of a payroll purge.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
how could you not think it is a payroll purge??
Whoops, the 2007 folk who would have are already gone, Piazza, Loiaza, Kendall.
Yeah, you guessed it, as it stands now Eric Chavez will be making about as much as all his teamates combined in 08.
That is a payroll PURGE.
Unfortunatly you are right
The cycle seems to be getting shorter we only had Dan Haren since 2005. What ate we rebulding towards? Trading any players away in a few years taht are good? The A's are a joke.
by 3Chavy3 on Dec 14, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
Shorter Cycle
The cycle is shorter this time around because Chavez, Crosby, Harden, and Kotsay all turned out to be busts.
Also keep in mind, just like 2005, this isn't a full rebuild by any means. We still have Harden (and his 3 starts a year), Gaudin (with better raw stuff then Haren), and Duke in the rotation. In 2005 we had Zito (Whom the majority of people wished was traded instead of the other two), a young unproven Harden, and NO ONE ELSE.
We also have a better core offense with Swish/Buck/Cust/Barton then we did going into 2005.
by Threepwood XX on Dec 14, 2007 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
In 2005 we did not make the playoffs
by 3Chavy3 on Dec 14, 2007 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
Question
Can either of Cunningham or Gonzalez play center field?
If not...why do we now have Cunningham, Gonzalez, Buck, Swisher, Chris Carter, Daric Barton, Dan Johnson and Jack Cust to play 4 positions? (I realize the newbies aren't quite ready for the bigs yet, and that Johnson probably isn't a factor here.) Good thing Piazza and Stewart aren't coming back.
Also...no middle infielders. Meaning, as far as MI prospects go, we have...none?
So the places we needed the most help on the diamond were CF, SS and if Ellis leaves next year, 2B....and we didn't help that situation at all. Seems kinda weird for Billy to focus on positions where we were already covered.
One more thing: if you look at it a different way,
Mark Mulder and Connor Robertson
for
Kiko Calero, Daric Barton, Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Chris Carter, Aaron Cunningham and Carlos Gonzalez
it looks way better!
good point
but there will almost certainly be other trades.
So basically
we have Buck, Swisher, Barton, and Cust to play 4 positions.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah but
my point is that, unless either of Cunningham or Gonzalez can play CF, when all three of the new prospects are ready...they are already blocked. So why didn't Beane go after positions where the A's are completely lacking?
by Philip Christy on Dec 14, 2007 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Correction:
Kiko Calero, Daric Barton, Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Chris Carter, Aaron Cunningham and Carlos Gonzalez, and a 2006 playoff appearance.
There we go.
WTF?
Personally I'm not excited about focusing on winning a world series. That's what Yankees and Red Sox fans do. As an A's fan, I want to see a fun, exciting, competitive team that probably never stacks up against the $200 million payrolls.
So basically...
...the opposite of last year.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Boooooo
I want a World Series dammit! Personally, I ENJOY a "fun, exciting, competitive team," but I WANT a trophy.
by Philip Christy on Dec 14, 2007 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Well think of it this way...
we had a hand in giving the D'backs a WS appearance (if not a trophy)... and no, I'm not overvaluing the acquisition of Danny... putting him behind Webb is going to be major.
by AsWin on Dec 14, 2007 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently the Arizona Summit didn't go well
The trade comes in the wake of a health summit the team held in Phoenix to assess the status of the many players it has recovering from injuries that derailed them last season. According to Beane, one conclusion from the meeting was that pitcher Chad Gaudin might need surgery for an injury to his hip labrum. And the team is still uncertain whether or not pitcher Rich Harden is back to full health. Beane also said that with third baseman Eric Chavez having had three surgeries, the team needs to be realistic about how quickly he can contribute to his full ability.
Who is this Slusser?
Isn't she the person that wrote the column in the Giants paper with the headline that read 'A's to sign Barry Bonds' - including a picture of Bonds in an A's hat?
I'd like to read this stuff from a more reliable source.
by NewPosterMojo on Dec 14, 2007 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry, but you're clueless...
Susan Slusser is the A's best beat writer, and regularly breaks A's news for the San Francisco Chronicle before any other Bay Area scribe. Her info is almost always on point, and straight from the team's top execs.
Also, the Chronicle never ran a story headlined, "A's to sign Barry Bonds." You might be referring to this story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...
That's a well-reported story with good insight into the A's and Bonds' thinking. Billy had been weighing which direction to go for next year, and as Lew Wolf admitted, they were into Bonds if they decided to go for it in 2008.
I've been reading her for years. Susan Slusser is as reliable as it gets when it comes to the A's.
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 14, 2007 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
I guess you missed Beane's response...
"I'm not going to justify something that somebody wants to make up because they talked to somebody who thinks they know what we're doing," Beane said. "It's a complete waste of my time."
Clueless huh? Goodnight.
by NewPosterMojo on Dec 14, 2007 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
Nope, didn't miss anything here...
...but you're obviously WAY more in-the-know than Susan Slusser. You're a wealth of information.
Please share with me your source/context for the Billy Beane quote above. I'd love to see the link.
Thanks.
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 14, 2007 7:01 PM PST up reply actions
Just found the quote...
..that quote is not directed at Slusser.
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 14, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
Whatever you say...
Even as Barry Bonds' legal future gained a little more clarity Friday, the continuation of his playing career remained as murky as ever. Just another day in the soap opera that has become the home run king's life.
Bonds spent the morning in San Francisco pleading not guilty to charges that he lied to a grand jury about whether he used steroids late in his career with the Giants, while across the bay the A's shed no light on a published report that quotes a source as saying there is "no doubt" they will sign him.
The story - at least the out-of-court part of it - started with a San Francisco Chronicle report Friday that quoted an unnamed major league executive as saying that "there is no doubt in my mind that Oakland will sign Bonds. I'd be shocked if it didn't happen."
By 11 a.m., A's General Manager Billy Beane said he had received calls from at least two dozen reporters from all over the country. Beane told the Bay Area News Group that he would refuse to discuss it, as per his policy with all free agents, and while not dismissing the report altogether, didn't entirely lend it credence, either.
"I'm not going to justify something that somebody wants to make up because they talked to somebody who thinks they know what we're doing," Beane said. "It's a complete waste of my time."
by NewPosterMojo on Dec 14, 2007 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
He's referring to...
...the major league executive. Speculation about Bonds and the A's has been all over the place this offseason, it's not something Slusser pulled out of her ass. It's her job to write about the team, so she's reporting what she hears. That's sportswriting, dude...half the rumors you hear never come to life. That's what fans crave when there's no real news to report. Speculation.
Thankfully, Bonds won't be coming to the A's and they've wisely begun building for the future because they weren't going to be real contenders in the next couple years anyway. All I'm pointing out to you is that Susan Slusser is a top-notch source for A's news.
Ask Blez about her, I'm sure he'd agree. I believe she's even been featured in Q&A sessions here on AN. That's who "this Slusser" is. You tell me who's a better source for day-to-day A's news.
by MooseKnuckle415 on Dec 14, 2007 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
That's your opinion.
It is my opinion that he was referring to Slusser. That is how Hurd's column read. So we disagree.
As for the rest of what you wrote - who knew? lol
http://athleticsnation.com/comments/...
Oh, and one more thing. There's a difference between sports writing and sports reporting. Goodbye.
by NewPosterMojo on Dec 14, 2007 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
Dude
Like 75% of AN will slap you with a glove and demand satisfaction (pistols at dawn?) if you insult SuSlu's honor.
Me included.
Back off, boogaloo.
Well, I'm scared.
Paul Thomas is a tough guy.
by NewPosterMojo on Dec 14, 2007 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
I just saw that story...
and it really reinforces the speculation that Beane had decided that '08 was a lost cause anyway.
So now we've got 2 starters with balky hips? Can we just junk some of our 40-man roster, cannibalize them for parts, and rebuild the injured guys we actually play?
just as i suspected
well not the gaudin thing specifically, but this is based on the health assessment. and this shouldn't be a surprise, since that's exactly what beane has been saying all along. or does that make it a surprise?
Bad, bad, bad
Why did we get Haren in the 1st place? We should have kept him longer. Funny how I just paid for my season tickets. 2008: The battle for 3rd place!
by Mr C on Dec 14, 2007 5:26 PM PST reply actions
The Battle For Third Place II
2007 was the original.
by Philip Christy on Dec 14, 2007 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
So...does this mean...
that the ace of our pitching staff, pending any further transactions, is Joe Blanton?
'cause..that's funny!!
no blanton's as good as gone
so after harden reinjures himself, the ace will be gaudin.
oops, gaudin may need surgery
new 2008 ace: lenny dinardo.
There's my answer
Came on here to ask who would be the Ace next year. I think I just saved a lot of money next season.
This is sad. And coming on top of just finding out last night that Joe Kennedy died. I don't even want to know what's next this weekend.
Except that Chad has a bad hip... n/t
This smells more Hudson than Mulder to me
I never got close to Haren so I'm not broken up to see him go, however, this trade seems more like the Hudson trade than the Mulder trade to me.
With Mulder we got Haren and Carlero, both of who were major league ready. With Hudson we got three guys, none of whom were ml ready. Here, we get six guys, none of whom are ready.
Biggest problem I have is with not getting ml ready guys -- you might end up getting nothing now and years from now. At least in the other rumored trades, we were expecting ml ready guys.
In fact, as I write this, I think that's what Billy himself has always said -- that he wanted guys with little ml experience (but that we ready to play). NONE of these guys seem ready to play.
Not to correct things you think you know but....
Meyer, and the other two in the Hudson deal (who shall not name here) were all considered to be major league ready. In fact, all three had had cups of coffee or even multiple months at the big league level.
by Threepwood XX on Dec 14, 2007 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
I'm happy
Clean-slate rebuilding is what we need to do right now. I want to see 2001-2003 kind of A's quality, not the smoke 'n' mirrors 2004-2006 type teams.
by calvin @ Athletics Nation on Dec 14, 2007 5:37 PM PST reply actions
Thats true...
but those teams mixed in some savvy vets with the young guys stars they already had around, Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Giambi, Tejada and Chavez. Also there was a competent manager and a system already in place.
What is there now? Confusion? A less than competent manager. No this is trying to start from scratch, with a bunch of young AND old guys who cannot even stay healthy complete and entire season.
Gonzalez and Cunningham have played some CF
Gonzalez has played 32 of his 385 OF games in CF. Cunningham has played 25 of his 209 OF games in CF. So they can play CF, though neither typically does.
http://minors.baseball-reference.com...
http://minors.baseball-reference.com...
by BillyWannabeane on Dec 14, 2007 5:38 PM PST reply actions
Same problem as Buck/Swisher
I'm okay with having a crappy defensive CF, though, if the team has quality in LF and RF-- and as long as Buck and Swisher are manning the corners, that will be the case.
If Jack Cust is playing corner OF with Swisher in center... well, then things get fuggly.
I still have to think that Beane views Denorfia as the CF of the future. His moves with regard to the outfield just don't make sense otherwise.
The way I look at it....
This was a great haul, but this kind of deal was Beane looking way down the road. The main thing that I was surprised not to see was a haul of premium pitching prospects. Granted we got a great one in Brett Anderson, but I expected more! But, the more I think about it the more I think he is going to slide in perfectly with the pitching prospects in the system now. Queue in Trevor Cahill and Craig Italiano and we have a solid rotation come 2010-2011. Combined with the haul of Gonzalez and Carter paired with Buck, Swisher and Barton and we have a solid lineup.
Think optomistically.
I am heartsick.
Thanks to Billy Beane we will endure a bunch of sucky years as fans. and if our team actually hits this year...I will be even angrier ! Because we traded away a proven starter...for less than sterling prospects.
I wonder if Beane will now sign Bonds. He saw that Bonds filled seats at phone company park and perhaps he thinks that will encourage attendance. Personally I don't want to see Bonds on the team now. I wanted him to make the A's contend...not to be like the Giants were...a one man show.
PS and if Beane really wanted to trade ...he should have gone after Hughes on the Yankees or some of the young guys on the BoSox.
Also,
an upside to this team being so injury prone, once Buck, Kotsay, and a couple other of our outfielders go down we might get a chance to see Carlos Gonzalez sooner rather than later. I suspect, that come April 22nd--or the 4th day of spring training--he'll be up showing us what he can or can't do.
you're missing the point on the ridiculous penny-
pinching A's. For you see they can't bring up Carlos Gonzalez next year, they don't want his price tag of service time to go up (that would be wasteful). So we will wait til 2007 and then bring him up for a great successful year, they find out with 3 years left of arby we should unload him before he gets too expensive. Just how baseball works....when your team refuses to spend a fucking dime that is.
2007=2009 (typo)
Gonna go to the bathroom,
throw up, have another shot of whiskey, then go to bed.
Someone wake me up in '09.
Haren would be a far better centerpiece for the organization for Chavez.
I just. I'm done. I need to go to bed for a few days, I don't do well when Billy decides to wreck Christmas. So not able to feel objective at this point, did we really have NO hope for the next two seasons that this was needed?
Send out Blanton and Street, might as well make a clean sweep of it.
"No. It's Oakland."
This is an absolutley horrible deal!!!
What did we get back? None of thse guys are Major League ready, but hey, at least the RiverCats will win more games than the A's will in 2008!
Do not want
Anderson had better turn out to be one hell of a pitcher.
I dont think its so bad
To watch a young team get good, its a different perspective than we have had since the late 90's, so I don't think its all bad. Its just going to be different, but I think it will be a good thing in the sense that the next A's team that is competive will be composed of mostly home grown players, who sort of came up through the minors together. I think that we will see Swisher, Buck, Suzuki, Barton, and Street on that team, but I think thats about it from current Athletics. I think that by the time the A's are ready to move into their new stadium, that the team will be on an upswing, while the Angels are in a downswing. The next few years will be interesting for sure.
+1
I was never much for the "blow up the team" argument, but I welcome this news nonetheless.
I don't know enough about the prospects to say whether it's a good trade, but I think the team will be a lot more fun to watch for the next couple of years.
Talking about team health...
There's a one sentence blurb on ESPN's site that might have had a small influence on this decision:
The A's recently learned that starting pitcher Chad Gaudin could need hip surgery
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...
If true, that not only sucks, but means we need to find yet another starter for next season.
(Is this why DiNardo was re-signed?)
That makes this deal that much worse.
We're gonna lose Gaudin, who is a good enough 5th starter, but at least he's halfway decent, but now you trade your ace for 5 guys who have ZERO ML exp and a journeyman middle reliever?
WTF? Billy...WTF?
Damn. That's it.
Anyone want to buy an authentic AAA ball signed by Conner?
I enjoyed this summary by someone on LL
Poor man's Adam Jones + man-with-same-amount-of-money's Tony Butler + rich man's Campillo + some stuff for poor man's ace pitcher
That's a really good thread
over on Lookout Landing.
Their analysis of the prospects is as good as anything we've got over here.
Consensus opinion seems to be that the trade is win-win for A's and D-Backs.
Smart men run the A's
Much smarter than us. The absolute best of us watch 51-54 outs of A's baseball 150 times a year. Billy and Co. make their living building a baseball team.
Before this trade, the team was, at best, the 7th best (BOS, NYY, CLE, DET, LAA, TOR in front) in the AL. The A's are doing what's in their best interest. Add this haul to the high draft pick next year, plus what they get for Blanton... and the A's farm system is back to being one of the top 10 in MLB.
There was no way they were going to be a legitimate playoff contender next year. I'm all for it.
This is what it comes down to.
The A's were closer to a Seattle-Minnesota level than any of those six teams. That's too much of an uphill climb to continue to hope and pray that maybe you can compete. Especially while allowing a subpar farm system to continue. The AL is just too stacked right now, with probably the 4 best teams in all of baseball(although AZ is gonna be good now).
The A's did not have a realistic shot at competing in 2008, throw out Gaudin like is now coming out and it starts looking really bad. The only move that made sense was to move these guys. You can argue over what they got in return, it would have been nice to get a Hughes or a Lester or a Kershaw. However, with any of those deals we would not have gotten the quantitity. Say what you will, but they are all plus prospects and out of the bunch its almost gauranteed some will help produce.
Now, perhaps we move Blanton and/or Street, for smaller more specific needs. Mostly, a CF and middle IF prospect, or maybe another young gun. And we look ahead from there, younger and cheaper.
Viewed through that lens,
we should all be very happy that Billy made this deal. Had the A's kept Haren, and signed Bonds and maybe added a few slight parts, the A's, most likely, would have been at .500 or above but not good enough for a playoff spot. That's not what Billy wants. He wants a championship team. He probably wants a World Series title to cement his legacy as A's GM, and he knows this team will only get worse, there's no way this team gets better in the next few years, so he might as well start now.
What I'm saying is, if we keep Haren, we become the Blue Jays, in that we win 80-85 games a year but can't get to the playoffs. I think we should all be happy Beane won't settle for that.
by Philip Christy on Dec 14, 2007 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
i thought billy made a living giving speeches
maybe this kind of deal is what happens when someone puts more energy into being a walking 'brand' than in doing their job
You're claiming that...
Billy didn't give this deal any thought? And that you did more research into this than he did? Because he was too busy giving speeches?
You're claiming that with a straight face?
Yep, that's it. The A's want to suck.
just noting
that the quality of the mgmt of the team seems to be in indirect proportion to the cult of billy in the past few years. it's also interesting that these decisions which may effectively be writing off the team for a year or two as a contender also seem to be made as the odds of a gigantic real estate development windfall in fremont are possibly fading.
it's a very human response to success - it's easy to fall into the trap of being a role instead of doing a role. it happens to the best of us, even without a michael lewis book.
Again, to reiterate
The A's were in first place in September in 2005. They went to the ALCS in 2006. They were bad in 2007. In the 36 months since the Mulder/Hudson trades, they've had as good a run as anyone save for the Red Sox, Yankees, and (shudder) the Angels. Beane still deserves credit for his work, even after the "Moneyball" era.
They ran dry, though, and had no farm system to back them up this morning.
The whole, "they're just trying to get better for the move to Fremont" mantra has wings, but in reality this was about an average team with a weak farm system dipping themselves to below average in order to build a strong farm system.
When the best argument against a trade is, "This sucks. We traded my favorite player," chances are it was a good move.
+1
And arguably, they only ran dry
because Harden and Meyer and Chavez weren't healthy - think of the team right now if they had simply been healthy - you could trade Haren to reload the farm system and still be damn good in 2008.
If those three were healthy and good,
it would be insane to trade Haren away. The team would be the best team in the division by 5-10 games. You don't give up a near-lock playoff appearance to bolster a farm system.
Two aces "traded"
in two years. Let's just hope this doesn't turn out AT ALL like the Zito deal!
(I know, not traded)
I have no clue what that means...
Are you trying to say you hope that for the case of Haren, or for the case of the A's?
Good luck in Arizona, Dan. You'll be missed.
If anyone needs me, I'll be mourning.
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