Is There Really a Plan?
I've read countless commentaries regarding the A's offseason. I've agreed with some, and I've disagreed with others. But one thing I think is overlooked, is whether moves are good or whether moves are bad is there one coherent plan to this offseason? I have to think no. There was some sort of shift in the New Year, that went into this reloading, not just for a year but for some undefined period because let's look at what this team could look like and while we're at it let's also go with the assumption they add Manny Ramirez (I think the Koji Uehara rumors are frequent enough that this likely gets done too but it is further down the way, so we'll omit those) that will mean this offseason the A's will have added:
Yoenis Cespedes ($6.5M)
Bartolo Colon ($2.0M)
Ryan Cook ($0.5M)
Collin Cowgill ($0.5M)
Coco Crisp ($6.0M)
Jonny Gomes ($1.0M)
Tom Milone ($0.5M)
Derek Norris ($0.5M)
Jarrod Parker ($0.5M)
Brad Peacock ($0.5M)
Manny Ramirez ($0.5M)
Josh Reddick ($0.5M)
Seth Smith ($2.4M)
Those guys we added represented a rough total (I rounded) $21.9M. Let's compare that to what we let go in terms of players who we had years of control left with but let go, so guys like Hideki Matsui or Josh Willingham would not be included.
Guys the A's let go (and their 2012 salaries) are:
Andrew Bailey ($3.9M)
Craig Breslow ($1.8M)
Trevor Cahill ($3.7M)
Gio Gonzalez ($3.3M)
Guillermo Moscoso ($0.5M)
Josh Outman ($0.5M)
Ryan Sweeney ($1.8M)
That's a grand total of $15.5M, less than the $21.9M we have added altogether in the trades and free-agent signings since. So what if we didn't do those trades?
I loved the Cahill trade as I don't believe he is that great and we got a potential ace in Parker. I loved the Gio trade because we got back all these great prospects. But pitching wasn't ever our problem. Those moves were clearly made to assemble an All-Star staff come 2015. They didn't do anything to make the 2012 club move competitive. The Andrew Bailey trade one can argue filled a need in the outfield but by trading away Ryan Sweeney, sort of didn't do that either. That trade too hinges largely upon what sort of pitcher Raul Alcantara becomes one day.
Those trades stand in stark contrast to what Oakland has done in January when they acquired talent that made the club better in 2012 but not necessarily in some cases, in 2015. What if there was one coherent plan, to compete in 2012? Could the A's have competed?
Let's say they don't trade Cahill or Gio Gonzalez that's $7M they have now, of course that means we also have Breslow still so its a total of just under $9M. Offset that by not re-signing Coco Crisp and probably not needing Bartolo Colon anymore then there is Cook and Cowgill's combined $1M. Financially we have basically a tie. Bailey and Sweeney for Reddick can still fit within the context of competing in 2012, especially if the A's do go out and get a Uehara type so we'll leave that trade be. The trade to acquire Seth Smith helps Oakland compete in 2011 so that stays. The free-agent signing of Cespedes of course stays as do those of Gomes and Ramirez.
Now we have a rotation that looks like this:
1. Gonzalez
2. Cahill
3. McCarthy
4. Braden
5. Godfrey/Ross
Certainly a lot more depth than what we have right now. Not much for the future, but Oakland hasn't ever had trouble developing pitchers before. The lineup really doesn't look that different. An outfield of Smith-Cespedes-Reddick, with Gomes and Michael Taylor/Brandon Allen as backups. The infield remains the same (now Brandon Allen being more valuable as if he loses a first-base job to Daric Barton he plays some in left field) as does catcher. The bullpen might be a little bit different and require some shoring up, but with three lefties now (Blevins, Breslow and Fuentes) we can deal them one of them to get some more right-handed help or perhaps a #5 starter type. After all this we could still decide to sign Colon of course too. This isn't radically more expensive but suddenly we have a team that while still not great or on par with Los Angeles or Texas, also looks a lot better.
But this hasn't been a coherent offseason, so we are sort of stuck with this in-between team, part future/part present. Maybe there is a plan and I fail to recognize it. Let's hope so.
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Increasing roster depth and future payroll flexibility
I liked the post and agree with most of the points. I disagree though that they had no overall plan. I would describe the plan as increasing roster depth and future payroll flexibility.
What if there was one coherent plan, to compete in 2012? Could the A’s have competed?
The lineup really doesn’t look that different.
I agree with this as far as just this year goes. Oakland has more depth for the future considering that they replaced Dejesus and Willingham with Reddick, Seth Smith and Cespedes who are under control for 3, 6 and 4 years. Oakland has gained a few bats with potential that aren’t just one year rentals (even though this is difficult to do with free agent signings like the competitors did with Beltre and Pujols).
Certainly a lot more (pitching) depth than what we have right now. Not much for the future
The notion that we can just develop pitchers from nowhere has some merit but remember that since the original big three many of the best pitchers on the A’s were from trades (Haren, Gio, Anderson for starters). I believe that the A’s front office believed that to have a full rotation they needed guys like Parker, Peacock, Cole and Milone.
When comparing the players acquired there even seems to be a notion of a plan. The pitchers the A’s acquired have more upside but also more risk due to very small amounts of major league experience (except Cespedes but it’s very hard to get free agent hitters as noted above). Having the risk in the pitchers is good since Oakland has been good at developing them. The hitters are what they are and I would guess the lineup is similar to what it has been. Hopefully some of these guys develop into solid regulars and maybe a star or two. The next few years Oakland has to use top draft picks and whatever other means necessary to acquire some real hitting and have at least an average lineup to go with the great pitching.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
Oh and no they could not have competed
This year no matter what they did in my opinion. That being said I don’t think they got much worse than last year either.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
Its an interesting notion
That they do gain depth. But it to me, seems like there was a definite switching of gears. It is possibly that the order was just coincidental as to when it made the most sense to make moves.
The developing pitchers out of nowhere may be an exaggeration but the A’ shave certainly been able to identify pitchers in a way that has not worked out with hitters acquired in trades or in the development of them as useful pieces for the club.
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It could be basically compete in 2014
coco is the only piece that really doesn’t make sense in that scenario, but I think he was signed 2 please players union, and before we knew we had a chance to land yoenis
by Billy Frijoles on Feb 20, 2012 11:00 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
We also had no true centerfielder
and Coco stayed relatively healthy last year. I think he has at least two good years left in that 3 year contract.
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
yes that's the other reason why they signed coco
forgot to mention that gomes makes no sense under any scenario. that’s a true Wtf move
by Billy Frijoles on Feb 20, 2012 11:14 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Insurance, basically.
With so many questions about Taylor and Carter still, I think Billy was looking for bargain basement production from at least one side of the plate. Plus, I think Gomes was always another one of Billy’s secret crushes.
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
I just think Coco has near no value.
They overpaid BIG TIME. I’d have been fine with Cowgill and/or Reddick in center field.
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Late season shift
I think that they decided to trade Gio, Bailey and Cahill but had no real way of knowing what they would get back. Once they had made those trades they knew the general shape of the roster and could then work to improve in the shorter term. I agree they had no way of knowing about Cespedes and got lucky there (assuming he’s all that and a bag of chips).
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
Thats a fair way of looking at things
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The plan as I see it....
Reload the system for a hopeful peak somewhere around 2015-16 THEN spend enough to keep Bud happy so he makes your desperately needed ballpark happen.
by AsFan72 on Feb 19, 2012 10:36 AM PST via mobile reply actions
The plan, as I see it, is coherent and as follows:
Rebuild for 2015 and beyond, and then get as good as possible in the meantime in ways that don’t sacrifice the future. Acquiring Seth Smith for a couple “filler” starting pitchers who aren’t part of the rebuild anyway, signing Cespedes, and even rolling the dice with Manny, all fulfill that goal.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oh, and no way could the A's have competed in 2012
Not with Texas as good as it currently is, the Angels adding Pujols, and Oakland with so many holes to fill going into this off-season.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't agree with the idea that the current A's team can not compete.
We (the A’s) have a good pitching staff and an excellent pitching coach and they could surprise people. Just because they aren’t existing big names does not mean they can not compete.
The Outfield/1st base/DH situation is what really excites me. I can see the potential for Reddick and Cespedes actually having good years. Reddick is a starter now and we know that the mind and do good things, confidence could bloom for him. Cespedes has the potential to be a star and right now no one to tell him he can’t. 1st base and DH could prove out to have a good hitter or two and all of sudden you have a balanced team.
Yes, I am a cup 90% full type of guy, but I also prefer to think this way and not, give up before the season starts. I remember the 2002 Oakland A’s and how everyone counted them out and then they won 103 games and made the playoffs. A play or two and then they are in the championship.
I will leave the logic to you and others Nico.. What I would like to see is someone like the Drummers in the bleachers who made the games fun, especially when Tejada came up. Now, they can do that for Cespedes.
My production, 2012 Oakland A’s win 97 games and go all the way to the WS.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
First off, I totally agree about optimism --
every March I become unbelievably optimistic and this March will be no exception. It also depends on your definition of “compete”. I should say I don’t think the A’s will compete for a playoff spot; they may not, however, be an easy team to beat or play.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thanks Nico!
I am definitely looking forward to a very entertaining season.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Oh it will be.
No clue how the team will play, though.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
My two cents....
I am very excited about this upcoming season just from an entertainment point of view as a fan…especially if the A’s end up signing The Man Ram. I think the A’s as a team will not be very good, i.e. truly competitive, but will be fun to watch. Then again, I have been very optimistic the last couple of years and watched the A’s disappoint me so I guess you really never know.
My one prediction this coming season is we will see the A’s have a position player be named to the AL All Start team. His name is Jemile Weeks! Go A’s!!!!!!!!
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
well that settles it for me
(presses button on mlbtv renew)
(note to self: send bill of collection to nico come end of season if not entertaining)
ack-A
Häägëñ Dääs
"I got another commission, Bud!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What's the benefit of getting as good as possible in the meantime?
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I think the theory
is that neither Wolff nor Beane nor the fans (in general) want to see a terrible team. So, Cespedes cost no prospects, and brings hype/excitement/optimism (whether warranted or not, my point is just about perception) to the 2012 team without hurting a 2015/2016 team. I think Wolff and Beane have made clear in the past that they don’t think they can ever have a terrible season without losing even more fans, so that’s the reason to try to be less terrible in 2012 (again, I think the point itself is debatable, but I think it’s pretty clear that this is what ownership believes, which is what drives the decisions).
I don't think that's true
Is there a difference between a 72 win team and a 62 win team in terms of level of attentiveness or intrigue among fans? I think that sort of thing is pretty binary, contending or not contending. Now Cespedes’ signing I think is fine either way, contending or not, because he does become a valuable chip in either scenario.
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Personally, I agree with you
I don’t think a 72-win team is more exciting than a 62-win team, but Wolff and Beane have pretty consistently said they believe that, so unless I see information that they believe otherwise, that’s what I’m going on, and I think that explains this move a bit more.
by el generico on Feb 20, 2012 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
I guess I cna understand from a competitiveness vantage
If I am playing a game, I want to narrow the loss no matter what. No one likes being blown out and I think that reallty is at play with Beane who I don’t think is a mail it in person.
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But long term
Is the goal to consistently be 76 wins or is it World Champsionship? 2012 being a let’s say best case scenario 84 win team, is ultimately no different than the 64 win team I’d have been happy seeing this year with the very early pick that’d accompany it.
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Check back Wednesday and find out -- it's the topic of my post!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree with you that it's not entirely coherent
But I think that’s because after trading away the pitching they went for opportunistic trades to not suck while waiting for the new batch of prospects. Either way I feel meh about the whole off-season. Call me disaffected after the last few seasons.
I was really psyched about the December moves
Thought we got a lot of interesting pitchers. But lately, not so cool. I don’t see the benefit of getting together a 76-81 win season.
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But that doesn't even necessarily mean the A's will win at least 76-81 games.
Personally, I’d be surprised if the A’s won even 72 games this year because the starting pitching has taken a hit in the short term.
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
See I think this team will finish about the same level as they did last year.
Perhaps slightly better.
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Either way
it won’t be good enough to land a playoff spot. Unless a minor miracle happens, that is…..
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
I feel very confused,
but nearly sure they will win more than 70 and fewer than 90.
Okay, 65 low and 95 high.
Probably.
Understanding Beane
He plays the A’s kind of like a fantasy baseball GM would. Knowing you don’t have the guns to be top in the division he reloads but still try to be competive on a outside chance. For the A’s to contend everything must go right which is about a 3% chance. Keeping what they had was about a 10% chance but the future chance would be very much less than with the trades. The Angels and Rangers must win now because of age and up coming free agents their window of opportunity is now.
When I look at that $15.5M we moved out, I am very happy.
Ok, excepting Gio, but none of the other were folks I really wanted to see any more of. Bailey’s injury doomed the 2011 A’s to pitch Fuentes as closer; I jut don’t feel like he can be counted on. Sweeney is broken. Cahill, well, shoulda moved him out a year earlier I thought. Breslow was starting to make too much money, and Moscoso and Outman, whatever. I’ll be happy to see any of these guys flourish elsewhere (especially Sweeney!), and not think that we screwed up by moving them out. (Again, excepting Gio, who I will probably think, ooh, he coulda been our ace and we knew it!)
agree
no real coherant plan…..and not sure Beane has had one since that Holiday disaster blew up in his face…..
that said this thrown together team will probably be decent in all the right places and I truly believe will win more games than last year
by amadorjon on Feb 19, 2012 11:48 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Rebuilding Yes, keeping service time, and SJ
Beane knows he cannot compete this season, but he also is going to throw away the season and the chances of the move to SJ – I do think Bud and the boys at mlb told Billy and Wolff that if they want to move to SJ then they need to spend a little cash and not just tank the season.
Cahill: A good move, saved his money, he is arm injury wanting to happen and J. Parker looks like the next Mat Latos
Gio: Again, saved us a ton of money and it appears the return we got back was outstanding
Bailey – I still am not a fan of what we got back for him, but I would love to be wrong on this one, but it feels to me like the Huddy deal (at the time we got a lot back, more then for Bailey but it turned out like crap for us)
Not going to go through each move we made, but with signing Bartolo we are keeping the service time probably for Peacock, I would presume Milone will be in our rotation early and Peacock coming up in May.
It might not seem like he had a plan, but I think with everything you have to be constantly changing your plan to work towards your goal (2015 in a new stadium).
Lets cross our fingers and get ready for the ride – at least Macha doesn’t have to juggle all these fellas..
Lance "you sunk my" Blankenship
I meant Geren, but the same hold true if it was Macha
there also one manager to me Macha Geren – the death of the A’s
Lance "you sunk my" Blankenship
dude
if you think theres going to be a stadium in 2015 you are smoking some of that good stuff Beane is trying to sell naive A’s fans……
even if the a’s got approval from mlb, they would have to go through a permit process, design review, funding problems, legal battles, etc, just to break ground…..
2016 to 2017 is more like it….can the a’s really suck bad that long without having a few hundred die hard fans from this website left??
build to win….not for some prospctive stadium that may or may not happen in the future!!!!
Building to win in 2015-2016 regardless of a stadium
Isn’t a bad decision. Building to win in every year does nothing see: Toronto Blue Jays like the last 12 years.
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Sucking badly in order to get high draft picks doesn't work any better
see: Oakland Athletics 1977-79. they were the worst team in baseball for three years and what did it get them? Two exciting years of the Billy and Rickey show (where they were swept in their only playoff series), followed by six more years of lesser suck. Out of the lesser suck came the three World Series appearances.
Draft position doesn’t matter nearly as much as some think. Drafting well no matter what your position and developing those players is what wins championships. Weeks is the first hitter that this team has deveoped into a major leaguer in a decade. That’s the problem, not their draft position. The majority of people thought that guys like Taylor, Carter, and Donaldson should’ve been major leaguers by now. Is the fact that they aren’t due to their draft position? And why would anyone in their right mind consider Albert Pujols the best player of the last decade? He was drafted in the 13th round fer crissakes.
Overall it does make a difference
In terms of individual people there is a high degree of variance. Like Piazza was something like third or fourth from last selected, arguably best offensive catcher of all time. But the number of #1 picks who hit is a lot higher.
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as I said.....
the few hundred die hards from this site does not constitute a fanbase….you may think its ok to lose a 100 games this season for a rebuild, but the already fragile and fractured fanbase will noit stand for it……
in case you havent noticed, the a’s arent exactly packing in fans anymore, how many fans will be left in the coliseum, listening to the radio, or watching comcast sportsnet california when thye do what you suggest and lose a 100 game sin some planned rebuild (and one I doubt Beane is competent enough to succeed at, where he trades the players away for more prospects)
by amadorjon on Feb 20, 2012 6:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
you really think that many fans get excited about 70 wins than 60?
Also, Beane being incompetent. Over the time he has been GM the A’s have the 7th highest winning percentage in baseball despite a fraction of those teams’ salaries.
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I get 10 wins more excited, m'self.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
YES
Could not agree more. I am not drinking the kool aid anymore. Ownership, and now Bill have tunnelvision. Lew can’t even speak for 45 seconds without using one, or all of the following words.
Stadium
Ballpark
San Jose
It’s absurd. Ryan said Macha/Geren were the death of the A’s, and while they are poor chapters no doubt, it’s the Wolff/Fisher ownership era that sunk the A’s. Sorry I know this site is pretty pro Wolff, which is why I stay kind of quiet LOL IMHO though, these two are some of the worst owners in MLB history….bottom 10.
This Message brought to you by Lew "what's an RBI?" Wolff, and John "I own a whatball team?" Fisher.
my only problem with most of the trades was what the A's got in return
(not thrilled with either Cowgill or Smith, for example). As for Gio, I believe he should have been the pitching “face of the franchise” as Weeks seems to be for the position players. I would have signed him to an extension before the 2011 season, in fact.
Céspedes was a target of opportunity. I don’t believe that the A’s thought they’d have much of a chance until just before they signed him, so their other moves were without him in mind. Céspedes’ agent is the same agent for Ynoa, so he probably told the A’s about the Marlins’ offer, and the hesitancy of other teams and Beane saw a chance.
Off Topic: Ben Sheets and Justin Duch
Anyone got an injury update on these 2?
Both should be targets if healthy and cost next to nothing.
Lance "you sunk my" Blankenship
I was wondering how Duke was doing in general
Regarding his physical condition, did he quietly retire or is he attempting to come back?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
last i heard Duke was thinking about yet another surgery for his hip
Sadly, I think my favorite ex-oakland Athletic might have to finally cal it quits.
:-(
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
He should, IMO.
His body just isn’t meant for baseball, sadly. One of my very, very favorite pitchers to watch.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Indeed....
Out of the many players that I have met over the years, Duke is by far one of the most, if not the classiest, I have ever had the pleasure of formally meeting. Not to mention, he was a great story and really had guts and smarts. Hope he finds something after baseball.
We Love You Duke!
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
Sheets?
Why would you want him back? LOL Either way, I’m pretty sure he retired officially after cashing that far too large check we wrote him in 2010.
This Message brought to you by Lew "what's an RBI?" Wolff, and John "I own a whatball team?" Fisher.
I don't have a clue.
But I have a bad feeling about the direction the A’s are headed.
I guess I see this kind of like a chess game
Where you play for better position over and over over and over again and let an end game develop, instead of trying to follow a specific script the whole way through. Restocking the farm definitely put us in a better place to compete in future seasons. So we make those deals, looking fo better position, not a specific lineup we have in mind.
The Cespedes move is, I agree, an outlier in that it doesnt seem to have the exact same timeframe as the other moves. And in retrospect it makes it seem like we could have competed this year. (I still dont think we could have, but thats another story) But there was no way to know that trade would go through before it did, so there was no way to “save up” the talent we would have had to hold on to in order to go for it now.
FIRE ILIKEIKE
Yeah I agree it is ok to change according to different circumstances
But this was quite dramatic and it is nice to have an overarching goal to follow too. Doesn’t need to be a specific lineup, etc but some sort of big picture idea.
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I think there was a "shift" in the plan
as you rightly identified, taking place in the January timeframe; and it had to do with the San Jose pot getting moved from the back burner to the front burner. Somehow, and we will never know the details, Lew got the message that he needed to be more competitive in the near term, or at least appear more competitive, so that Bud could push through on the relocation to SJ.
I don't think there was ever the intention not to be competitive
If you look at Beane’s body of work, there is zero propensity to punt any season. Even in years where the team has had very low expectations, he has managed to make the team mediocre at the very least. This doesn’t sound like a compliment, but it does mean you’re positioned to take advantage of lucky breaks. The A’s just haven’t had many of those over the past 5 years.
What I’ve seen in this offseason:
Phase 1 – Trade off overvalued assets to restock the farm with a mix of high upside and major league ready guys.
Phase 2 – Get complimentary short to medium term pieces to make the team palatable for the next couple of years, and position yourself to take advantage of opportunity.
Phase 3 – Oh shit, all of a sudden everyone is overbidding on Soler and nobody is properly valuing Cespedes. Let’s get him!
by laserbeams on Feb 19, 2012 11:45 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree fully laser..
BB is very competitive by nature, and will never just throw away a season; but my point was that Bud wanted to be able to show the other owners that Lew is really not afraid or relucant to spend money even if the SJ move hasn’t been finalized.
by robertmelvin on Feb 20, 2012 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
Perhaps the rotation isn't the only that needs...
MOAR COLON!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What's that hip new scent for men...?
“B-Cologne…. For The Man Who Loves His Recliner…”
"Welcome to me motherf&%#r!"
-Tim Hudson on facing Vladimir Guerrero for the first time in the AL.
From Mychael Urban's "Aces-The Last Season With The Big Three"
Trying to figure this out ....
Okay. Let’s suppose the 13 position players are:
1. Cespedes, 2. Crisp, 3. Reddick, 4. Smith, 5. Gomes, 6. Allen, 7. Manny, 8. Weeks, 9. Pennington, 10. Sizemore, 11. Suzuki, 12. Recker/Powell, 13. Sogard/Rosales --
What happens if Weeks or Pennington or Sizemore is out for a couple of days, and is replaced by Sogard/Rosales, who plays the infield if someone else is forced to leave the game? NONE of these other guys - Cespedes, Crisp, Reddic, Smith, Gomes, Allen or Manny - can play 3B, or 2B or SS,
Thats one reason I think Donaldson could get a shot.
He’s played 3B in winter ball. Gives a little extra versatility.
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+1
I would think that Donaldson is the plan
by robertmelvin on Feb 19, 2012 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
also I think there is still one more big trade coming,
or at least “big” in the sense of multi-player. I can see BB moveing 2 of the following:
Carter
Allen
Crisp
Powell
Taylor
for a couple of high prospects
by robertmelvin on Feb 19, 2012 10:10 PM PST up reply actions
i was hoping
that they’d use a couple of them and go out and acquire a guy who could spot start/relieve like maclellan, or someone from the braves
still think taylor for uehara is fine enough
Snoochies
I'd rather get rid of Rosales for Uehara.
Let the logjam sort itself out in Spring Training. Taylor has options, why trade him?
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because with cespedes/smith/reddick/crisp in front of him
and green/choice RIGHT behind him and cowgill right next to him, it’s pretty obvious he doesn’t have a shot on the a’s.
as the saying goes, a change of scenery might help him.
Snoochies
I don't think it is obvious
Guy still has options. Why not use them? And this offseason has taught us how quickly a shortage can turn into a surplus (the outfield). And last season can show us how quickly a surplus can be utilized (the pitching staff).
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Isn't that a tough situation that most AL teams face?
With four man benches I can’t imagine that many teams carry two back up middle infielders very often during the season. Most teams if they lose a starter and back-up at either 2B or SS would seem to find themselves in rough spot, is this really a contingency that most teams plan for when making a 25 man roster?
If you look...
You’ll find that on most teams, one of the back-up outfielders can also play infield, either 3B or 2B, and the second baseman or shortstop can slide over. The idea is that at least one player is available to man every position. That’s why people like Mark Teahen stick around.
The chances of that happening are very low.
There would really only need to be a contingency plan for 3B, as Sizemore would shift to SS/2B if need be. If it does happen, there would really only need to be a guy who could play for a few innings, unless somehow 3 of the 4 infielders gets hurt/ejected. I really wouldn’t be worried of throwing maybe Smith out at 3rd. Really, with the propensity to DH/replace the catchers, I think that would be a more worrisome situation. Barton has been the emergency catcher in the past, but he might not be around much next season. It would be a situation where you basically have to throw away the game to protect the team.
On a similar note, does anyone remember one game in Seattle in 2004 I think, where Chavez had to play LF? I can’t remember the specifics, but I think they were actually warming up Mulder in case they needed him in the field. Then, in a runner-on-third situation, Chavez came in for a 5-man infield, with Esteban German as the “center middle infielder,” and Byrnes and Dye in the OF. Byrnes was literally covering both LF and CF by himself. I guess I just find it so entertaining when odd things like that happen. I’m rooting for Rosales to play 5 or 6 different positions in a game, just for the hell of it.
The chances of that happening are probably pretty high
Last year the A’s had Conor Jackson to play third, which he had done in the minors. They also had Josh Willingham in case of an emergency, though that never was necessary. But Jackson did play third base and was always available and he’d had a little experience doing so.
Seth Smith has never played third base in his career. Jonny Gomes has never played third base in his career. Brandon Allen has never played third base in his career. Josh Reddick has never played third base in his career. Coco Crisp started as a second baseman in 1999 but hasn’t played the infield since. You don’t want to put Manny Ramirez anywhere near third base.
..in which case someone on that list won't
Boy, that Jonny Gomes signing is looking worse and worse and worse.
Barton could very well be optioned.
But, talent wise he likely has the most upside of the lot.
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This really isn't that hard to understand
The A’s reloaded in a serious way for the future. They also signed a bunch of guys so that they could be decent this year. They have correctly realized that the only way to actually gain any benefit from losing is to lose a LOT. Like, basically guarantee yourself the #1 pick in the draft multiple years in a row. That’s not in any way an attractive proposition.
Much better to take this route. You’re semi-decent while rebuilding, giving you the opportunity to take advantage of openings like a 5th playoff spot or Texas and Anaheim unexpectedly having shitty seasons. If you suck abysmally, you have zero chance of sneaking into the playoffs. If this is, as I believe, an above .500 team, then you have something like a 20-30% chance of making the playoffs. What’s the point of watching baseball? You want to see your team get into the playoffs. I’m not willing to see my team take 5+ years off for the possibility of being a playoff contender at some nebulous future time. The Rays truly, truly sucked for 10 years, and now they’re good. The Pirates, Royals, and Orioles, and have sucked for even longer, and still suck. Want to go down that road? Not me.
Getting into specific critique of your article: I really don’t get why you are comparing the salaries of the players traded away to the salaries of all players added to the roster. This tells us nothing. $16 million out of the $22 million in salary (more than 70%) you list under 2012 is for players that were signed as free agents! The A’s were going to sign free agents no matter what, if only to get over the salary floor! If anything, the trades actually granted the A’s the flexibility to resign Crisp and get Cespedes, both of whom should help with the above stated goal of making this team decent enough in 2012 and 2013 to take advantage of opportunities if they arise. They’ll also help make the team watchable, for which I am grateful.
I think Beane has done an unbelievable job this offseason, and I can clearly see the plan and direction this team is taking. And I’m not a blind Beane fanboy; for the second half of the 2011 season I was very, very pessimistic about the future of this franchise and very angry about the state of major and minor league talent. The Pujols signing just made it worse. Everything that’s happened since then has been cause for optimism, and I’m more jazzed up about the 2012 season than I have been in a while. They’ve performed a somewhat incredible feat – overhauling the minor league talent, bringing it from bottom 5 to top 10, while simultaneously improving the MLB squad. Give even the richest teams in the league multiple years to accomplish this task, and it is still ridiculously difficult. For the A’s to have pulled it off in one offseason is nothing short of incredible.
+1
Completely agree .. Beane seems to have been off his game the last few years an i was begining to loose hope. But now we have a Solid young core, including some position players (weeks, cespedes, sizemore, reddick), as well as a pitching staff that seem like it will be better than the one we had last year, in a year or 2.
All for the moves the Billy made and im stoked for this year and many more.
raking
The reason I compared those salaries
Is that one reason to trade players for low-revenue teams is to save money. This was clearly not a consideration in this case. The trades absolutely cleared the way to sign Crisp, which in my mind is a bad move. Crisp is terrible. He has an awful OBP that is not worthy of a leadoff hitter, and his speed doesn’t play as well elsewhere in the lineup. His arm is god awful. I just thought that was without doubt the worst signing of the off season. I was a big fan of the December moves, less a fan of the January ones though my opinion is changing on the deal that net us Smith.
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the last couple sentences really put it into perspective
take our craptastic farm system and turn it into an asset, while arguably improving the big league squad. Never thought about it that way, doing all of that in one off season.
by Billy Frijoles on Feb 20, 2012 11:21 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
Beane was just on the rise guys this morning, here are some of his comments:
Re: Manny Ramirez rumors:
“there’s no question we have a big hole in the middle of the lineup. we’re gonna have to consider all options. there are free agents”
Re: New Stadium in SJ:
“the only way to open a stadium is to have a really good team.”
Re: Decision to blow up last year’s roster and off-season trades/moves:
“we were a third place team last year. we needed an overhaul b/c that group wasn’t gonna win it.”
Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 20, 2012 9:51 AM PST reply actions
So is Chris Carter's new nickname,
Big Hole?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Only if Manny doesn't perform well.
Now that we have Manny signed. If he kills it in AAA, then he is going to fill that whole, probably the 4 spot. With our 1B or Suzuki or smith/gomes (if they are playing OF) in the 5th spot.
by Mike Siegel on Feb 20, 2012 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
it's funny cuz
in the middle of the interview Beane’s cell phone went off and they were all joking “was that about Manny!!!” and then immediately after the interview the rumors start popping up on twitter that we signed him.
Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 20, 2012 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
he sure seems pretty down
on both Carter and Taylor
Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 20, 2012 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
An obvious shift.
Here is something to point out. We got rid of pitchers who would become expensive to gain offense that is/will become expensive. You can see the shift. It doesn’t matter what our payroll is, we are putting more money into the offense and allocating that away from the pitching. This is something we needed to do and we are finally doing it. Our offense has been struggling for way too long. Beane saw an opportunity to lower his payroll on pitchers without decreasing his talent by that much and increase his payroll in the offense and increase the talent a lot.
I believe there are many reasons he’s doing this. Here is what I think: 1. The fans like offense. More HRs get more fans than good pitching. As you see, we had GREAT pitching and still no fans. 2. A contending team is a balanced team with both good pitching and hitting. 3. We already have the coliseum working in our favor since it is such a pitchers park. So Beane feels comfortable to lower his pitching talent by a little because we have the “armor” of the coliseum to protect and allow our pitchers to do that much better. 4. The new SJ stadium is not going to be a pitchers park. I see it being a pretty neutral stadium. Therefore Beane has to play to his strengths and add more hitting. In the Coliseum Beane saw that pitching is dominant and hitting can’t do well, so he played to his strengths and focused on mastering the pitching. Now with a new stadium that isn’t going to be pitcher friendly necessarily, he has to master both the pitching and offense evenly so both perform well. He’s getting a head start on that now instead of last minute.





























