Maybe this is a stupid stats question
Think about the most average player, and whatever you think the best hitting summary statistic is, which i'll call 'H'. now think about whatever pitching stat you value the most, and let's call that 'P'. You can sort the league's pitchers from low P to high P values, and look at the hitter's H stats in that way (ie. his H value for the bottom 10% of the pitchers, then the next 10%, etc). Obviously there will be a tendency for reduced H values as the P group becomes more difficult. Over the population of a league, you can get a measure of what that relationship looks like.
The goal is find out whether a hitter does better than expected given his overall stats against either strong pitching or weak pitching. (ie., if his overall stats indicate a H value of 5, you might expect that he will bat like a 7 against the bottom 10% of pitchers in his league, and a 3 against the top 10%. )
For minor leaguers, would you think that a player that outperforms his overall stats against the better pitchers be a better prospect than a batter who outperforms his overall stats against the weaker pitchers?
I think maybe so, because the better pitchers on a given minor league level are the ones who the minor league batter will face when he gets to the next level.
For major leaguers, are there really some hitters who succeed more than expected against better pitchers and suck more than expected against weaker pitchers? If you could quantify this, would it be useful on either the major or minor league level? And even if it would be useful, is there enough data to evaluate and get significance in your answers?
(and if it would be of use, it could be turned around to evaluate a given pitcher and his performance against better and worse hitters vs. expected results)
I was just trying to think of a way to better predict future performance. I picture 2 AAA hitters with identical overall stats -- but one doing better than expected against the best AAA pitchers but not as good as you would think against the weak AAA pitchers.
This question written by someone (me) who knows little about baseball stats, and I'm sorry if it is, indeed, stupid. It's a long off-season.
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So to sum it up, you’re asking whether it would be good practice to focus on a hitter’s performance against elite pitching (you said top 10%, I believe) for talent evaluation/projections, and visa versa?
It would be interesting to see those kinds of splits, similar to low/med/high leverage situations, but also seems like a hassle to assemble. Plus, it seems like defining that elite hitting/pitching would be somewhat arbitrary. Also, looking at head-to-head stats won’t tell the whole story. Maybe this player absolutely crushes a certain pitch, no matter how elite the pitcher is, while he can’t even hit another pitch thrown by a horrible pitcher?
For minor leaguers, would you think that a player that outperforms his overall stats against the better pitchers be a better prospect than a batter who outperforms his overall stats against the weaker pitchers?
I think that would be rare to find a player that does better against elite pitching than pitching as a whole. If so, I would think it could be attributed to luck and/or small sample size. Otherwise, that player would not be necessary “better” if he can not deal with league-average or poor pitchers, which would account for much more of his at-bats. I see where you’re coming from though. Say there is indeed a player that out-plays his stats against elite pitchers. I wouldn’t say so much that he was “better” than having a higher ceiling. Does that make sense? Kind of like he has a good chance of being a better player, but only if he can tighten up the holes in his game.
The concept is interesting, but unusable, I'd think, given the state of the art and the variablility in performance
Even the ‘best’ stats for hitting and pitching take many at-bats to settle down into an accurate measure of a pitcher or hitter’s ‘true talent level’ (actually, I would argue no one can ever know someone’s true talent level, only their observed performance level…).
Given that, when you start slicing up the pie so that you are looking at only the top 10% of pitchers at a given level, there are too few at-bats to provide reliable data vs. noise.
All kinds of splits (such as home vs. away performance, batter vs. specific pitcher) are almost instantly available these days, but often they are way too small a sample size to say much meaningfully.
I’ll admit, when I’m watching a game and they show me that so-and-so is 0-16 against my pitcher, I’m much more confident than if so-and-joe is 9-16 against him, but statisticians would say neither is anywhere near a big enough sample size to make predictions…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Feb 15, 2012 8:29 AM PST reply actions
just to clarify..
thanks for your comments…
i wasn’t thinking of just having a measure against the top 10%, but rather you would have hitting stats against 10 levels of pitchers (bottom 10%, pitchers in the 10-20%, … top 10%). Or divide the pitchers into 5 categories of 20% groups (0-20%, 20-40%… 80-100%). You’re using data against all the pitching levels, not just the top group.
To make up #‘s to illustrate what i mean, let’s say you go with 5 categories of pitchers. You combine all the league’s hitting data to come up with the expected shape of the relationship. Lets say the combined data gave you an average H value of 5 and a H value of 7 vs the bottom 20% of pitchers, 6 for the 20-40% ranked pitchers,…, and H = 3 against the top category of pitchers. If you graph H vs. pitching category group, you could calculate the slope of the relationship. You would expect an average individual hitter with an overall H value of 5 to look like the league average when you broke up his data into each category. You would expect a better hitter with an overall H value of 6 to have a similar relationship across the categories, but his H’s would look higher in each compared to the average hitter.
If you have two hitters that both have an overall average H=6 but whose H values across the pitching categories that look different (ie, one of the hitters better than expected against the best pitching category but worse than expected against weak) be useful?
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Or maybe, just looking at hitters #’s against the top x% of pitchers would be just as good as looking at each category?
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I especially like Furyan’s comment “Maybe this player absolutely crushes a certain pitch, no matter how elite the pitcher is, while he can’t even hit another pitch thrown by a horrible pitcher?”
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It occurs to me that despite all the data that is available, data is somewhat doomed as a predictor. I (falsely?) remember Bret Saberhagen alternating good years and bad years. What model could predict that?
Hi ho.
It's a great idea but fear it would be too frustrating.
disclaimer: percentages completely coming from my posterior
The top 20% or so hitters and pitchers are the only ones that seem to stick around long enough to establish any meaningful trends. I’ve never done the calculations but I’m willing to do a gentlemen’s wager that the average (or especially median) service times for anyone who breaks into the MLB is only about enough to produce 500 AB or 125 IP.
by JustANotherJoe on Feb 20, 2012 5:22 AM PST up reply actions
A twist on this approach
Is to first break up a hitter’s season by pitch type. You can then rank each pitcher by their individual pitch effectiveness and perhaps then as danh (really, another dan on this site talking stats?) said divide those individual pitches into a hierarchy (top 50% and bottom 50%) and see how a hitter does against each half.
The devil in all of this as others have pointed out is sample size. Every time you subdivide the data set you’re losing certainty in the results of the analysis.
Specifically talking about the minor leagues, the first thing that would need to happen is an assessment of the variability of minor league pitching. I’ve no idea what that breakdown looks like. But I know you have career AAAA guys, some young studs, some rehabbing MLBers, all sorts of pitchers are floating around the league. Determining the “top” AAA talent is a chore unto itself.
I think this is a great question and that this analysis could be done.
What stat do you think is best to use for the pitching component? ERA seems like it might be the best one. FIP seems like a better predictive stat but I do not know how well it does in telling you how good a pitcher is.
For the hitters, wOBA or WRC seems fine.
To echo Ciderbeck’s point, would the data be meaningful once you split it this many ways? Maybe, maybe not. I guess we won’t really know unless we do it and see what comes out.
by Billy Frijoles on Feb 15, 2012 12:45 PM PST reply actions

























