Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Celtics Need To Get In The Zone

2012 A's compared to the 2002 A's and why we won't do as bad as we think.


First off this may be a ludicrous post but my mind has been on it all day so I want to spell it out to the nation. Everyone seems really bummed about the 2012 team and things just seem to be going downhill and negative. So I thought I'd do some research and find a comparable recent A's team in history and compare them to our projected 2012 team. Our 2002 team won 103 games. Once you see my breakdown, it may help put things in perspective and brighten up our thoughts on the 2012 team.

The bold player is the better player. This is looking at the 2002 season only. What people did in other years is irrelevant.

2002 2012

C: Hernandez: .233/.313/.335 7HRs Suzuki: He had his worse season last year, but still hit .237/.301/.385 with 14HRs. He is definitely a better option than Hernandez. Imagine if he gets back to his 2009 numbers.

1B: Hatteberg: .280/.374/.433 15HRs Kila/Carter/Barton: We don't know who's going to be out starting 1B. What we do know is that all 3 of those guys have potential to at least do just as good as Hatteberg did. If Barton can get back to his 2010 numbers or Carter and Kila perform the way we expect them to (Carter hit .274 w/ 18HRs in 344 PAs and Kila hit .272 w/ 11HRs in 388 PAs in AAA last year) then they should match Hatteberg, maybe even hit a few more HRs.

2B: Ellis: .272/.359/.394 6HR 4SB Weeks: His defense doesn't compare to Ellis', but because the A's have such quality pitching, offense is more important in this situation. The 2002 year was Ellis' rookie year and this past year was Weeks'. Weeks batted .303/.340/.421 w/ 22SB in 2011. Keeping or increasing those numbers in 2012 easily makes him a better pick at 2nd than Ellis was in 2002.

3B: Chavez Sizemore: No discussion. Chavez's 2002 season will be better than any season Sizemore ever has.

SS: Tejada Pennington: Tejada's number's don't need to be discussed. They are very very good. I must note that he only had 7 SBs though. Pennington will get much more than that and hit for a respectable AVG. Probably not the .308 Tejada hit in 2002 though.

LF: Justice: .266/.376/.410 11HRs Smith/Gomes: Smith hit .284/.347/.483 w 15Hrs. Granted he was in Colorado. Even if we deflate his numbers to Oakland he would still hit about the same as Justice did. 20 less AVG points and 4 less HRs and a lower SLG. So Smith alone is equal to Justice. Now add in Gomes to help hit LHP, now you have an above average LF that together hits better than Justice did in 2002.

CF: Long: .240/.298/.390 16HR 3SB Crisp: (2011) .264/.314/.379 8HR 49SB- The numbers say it all. While Long might be able to hit more HRs, Crisp is hands down a better player than Long was in 2002. Crisp can steal 50+ bases and he will overall hit much better than a 2002 Long.

RF: DYE: .252/.333/.459 24HR Reddick: (2011) .280/.327/.457 and hit 7HR in only 278 PA. Translating those numbers to Oakland and giving him a full season, I would project him to hit about the same line as Dye did in 2002. Bill James has him projected to hit .249/.312/.457 with 19HRs in 493 PA in 2012. If we give him 555 PA like Dye had in 2002 then I see his HR and SLG going up to match Dye's.

DH: Durham: .289/.374/.450 15HR Kila/Carter/Manny?: Durham didn't play the full season with Oakland, so his .299BA and 9HR from Chicago are in the above stats. That being said, no matter who our DH is I think they can hit just as well as Durham did in 2002. Look at Manny's numbers in 2010 and read my analysis in the 1B section for Carter and Kila. Everybody should be able to hit above .260 and at least 15HRs. Our DH slot is the same and probably better if we land Manny.

Total Offense: 2012 is better: 4 2002 is better: 2 Positions are equal: 3

Now the pitching (I'm just gonna do the starting rotation). Our relief is just as good as it was in 2002.

2002 2012

Hudson: 2.98 ERA 1.25 WHIP Anderson: (2010) 2.80 ERA 1.19 WHIP. If he can stay healthy his numbers will be comparable to Hudson's in 2002.

Zito: 2.75 ERA 1.13 WHIP Braden: Braden is a great pitcher who will have above avg numbers in 2012 if he stays healthy. He will not, however, be able to duplicate Zito's 2007 numbers.

Mulder: 3.47 ERA 1.14 WHIP McCarthy: (2011) 3.32 ERA 1.13 WHIP- The numbers tell the story. McCarthy even has potential to be better than Mulder was in 2002. For now let's just say that they are pretty equal.

Lidle: 3.89 ERA 1.19 WHIP Colon: (2011) 4.00 ERA 1.29 WHIP. Colon's numbers reflect what he did playing for the Yankees. A full season with Oakland and I see his numbers being the same as Lidle was in 2002. Lidle was the "old guy" of the 2002 rotation just as Colon will be in 2012.

Harang: 4.83 ERA 1.57 WHIP Ross/Peacock/Milone/Parker: It doesn't matter who gets our 5th spot. They will be better than Harang was in 2002. They all have had a little MLB level experience already and have pitched great. Give any one of them a full season as our 5th starter and their numbers will easily be a huge increase from Harang's 2002.

Total Pitching: 2012 is better: 1 2002 is better: 1 Positions are equal: 3

Team Total: 2012 is better: 5 2002 is better: 3 Positions are equal: 6

So if you look at the players we had and the numbers they put out, we have an overall better or at least equal team to our 2002 A's that won 103 games. We have to keep in mind the the Angels and Texas were not as good in 2002 and they are going to win some close games against the A's in 2012. So let's take away 10 wins, that still leaves us at 93 wins. I'm not saying the A's will win that many, but if everyone plays up to their potential and stays healthy then I think we will win a lot more games then people are projecting right now. Remember, last year's terrible season was due to a lot of injuries on both our pitching and offense. I am sure that the 2012 A's will be a better team than 2011 and I'll even go as far to say that I think we'll be an over .500 team.

Keep your chin up AN and think positive. Your Oakland A's will surprise you as they always do :)

Comment 32 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

What are you 12?

Your analysis does not take into consideration that the places where we are “not as good” are miles of difference. And in no world is Braden going to ever approach Zito’s 2002 year. Also, Anderson will be hurt for at least half the year. I love your optimism, but if we don’t lose 95+ games this year I’ll be surprised.

by jasonlbe on Jan 23, 2012 5:21 PM PST reply actions  

Hey now, let's dispense with the "How old are you" stuff

I think he’s also overestimating how good we’ll be, but he did admit that Braden is no Zito. A fine effort, even if unrealistic.

by Rebuilding Season on Jan 23, 2012 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

OK

Perhaps the age comment was a bit over the top. I would definitely prefer Mike to be correct and this team play the us against the world card and win 90 games. I just can’t see that happening with such a young roster. I think our best case scenario is perhaps a Florida Marlins pre-spending season of 80-85 wins. That would be a hell of a success, and based on that assumption likely put us in consideration for playoff dreams in 2013. Fingers crossed?

by jasonlbe on Jan 24, 2012 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah there is no way this team does what 2002 did.

.500 would be a strong overachievement. But the young players I think would be pretty happy if they could pull that off in this division. Would give serious confidence going into 2013 (when we have Choice, Gray and Green, hopefully, coming up to big club).

I still think we will be abysmally bad but I really hope to be proven wrong.

by Billy Frijoles on Jan 24, 2012 7:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Tejada and Chavy

were also the 2 best hitters on the team…. pennington, sizemore? Kinda a big talent gap there

by Spidz34 on Jan 23, 2012 6:00 PM PST reply actions  

I agree.

Those are the two biggest differences I found. But we don’t know what Smith, Gomes, Reddick, Kila, and Carter might be able to do in a full healthy season. They could all end up hitting 20+HRs or a couple of them could end up hitting 30+ like Tejada and Chavy did. In the comparison I feel like where we lacked in the 3B/SS category we made up for in other categories. Look at our OF compared to the 2002 OF and Suzuki and Weeks compared to Hernandez and Ellis. The numbers for those guys in 2012 will be way better then the 2002 team for those positions.

by Mike Siegel on Jan 23, 2012 6:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I love the optomism

I really do, and I hope you’re right :)

by Spidz34 on Jan 24, 2012 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Gotta admit this made me grin

But yeah, as Spidz34 just posted, you don’t just get to forget about Chavez (5.4 WAR) and Tejada (4.9 WAR). Plus, I’m really crossing my fingers, but no idea if we muster even league average production out of the 1B/DH Kila/Barton/Allen/Carter 4 headed question mark.

Also fascinating from that ‘02 squad: Mabry, baby bro Giambi, and Saenz combined for 576 PA’s with an average .840 OPS. Thanks to the injuries, those three bench guys collectively accounted for almost a full year’s worth of starter plate appearances. And totaled together they made a 2.8 WAR player. So where’s that 3 extra WAR coming from in ’12?

I also don’t buy the Colon = Lidle comp. Lidle had a career year in HR-suppression in ‘02, doubt Colon can keep the ball in the yard (even accounting for the marine layer). And I won’t believe Colon can maintain his fastball velocity until I see him throw a few games in ’12 with the revitalized zip he showed in New York.

All in all a fun read. Really hope one of prospects turns into the next Tejada/Chavez. Oh, and if you boost your case some:

Grant Balfour = Billy Koch
Joey Devine = Chad Bradford

by Ciderbeck on Jan 23, 2012 6:17 PM PST reply actions  

I didnt know

That chavy was more valuable then Miggy… damn

from a WAR perspective

by Spidz34 on Jan 24, 2012 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Gotta remeber the defense

Gold glover versus a guy who was below average.

by Ciderbeck on Jan 26, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Barton/teqKila/Allen/Carter

It would be wonderful to see a OPS > .800 but I think not. Hatte had it.

Baja been here

by bajablue on Jan 26, 2012 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Great Kila nickname

If any of those guys flash some decent power, then at least on OPS they should get up around .800.

by Ciderbeck on Jan 26, 2012 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I like it in spirit

and I would love if the 2012 season played out like this, I really would, but I don’t think that it is realistic to expect. Basically you’re cherry picking the best case scenerios for our entire roster. I love the optimism but I think that we should lower our expectations until 2014 or 2015.

Hey, our run from 2000 until 2006 was historic. Maybe this new stretch will give some who became fans in that time some perspective on just how special that was.

Slegna must die!

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 23, 2012 7:03 PM PST reply actions  

I know it is far fetched but...

Think about how bummed we were when we lost Giambi and thought our team was gonna deteriorate. Aside from Chavy, Tejada, and the Big 3, we had no “star” players. The 2002 of half misfits went on to win 103 games. That’s all I’m pointing out. I think the 2012 team is full of even more random misfits, rookies and hopefuls, but I’m not counting out a surprise.

by Mike Siegel on Jan 23, 2012 8:34 PM PST reply actions  

Don't get me wrong, I love the optimism,

but I think it’s a bit glib to say, “Aside from Chavy, Tejada, and the Big 3, we had no ‘star’ players,” because you just named 5 genuine star players. It’s like pointing out that aside from Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Hamels, the Phillies don’t really have any great starting pitchers.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 23, 2012 8:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Come on, Nico.

Even without those guys they still have Cupcakes! :)

"Trying not to rec a "***k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm

by Tutu-late on Jan 23, 2012 9:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Who did we lose?

We didn’t have anybody the same caliber as Giambi…

Cahill and Gonzalez aren’t the same as losing Giambi that year.

Wade Hines

by Wader on Jan 23, 2012 11:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Heck yeah

Love the positive outlook … it’s been a dreary off-season, man. Personally, I’m just looking for individual growth this year. We are the snowball, but if we can finally get some ABs for guys under say, 30, the A’s might be on the right road. I’m just looking forward to a new set of A’s, regardless (except Gio, I’ll really miss Gio). I was hoping this would be the year to really start the rebuild in earnest, but every day the A’s keep adding some band-aid outfielder … why, I’m not sure but at least whoever makes it out of our crusty RiverCats prospect pool will have to somewhat earn the right to be a big leaguer. So yeah, 90 wins or so would be great but 75 wins, plus a few (OK, a lot) of rookie breakthroughs and a top-five draft pick would suit me, too.

by LurkyLee on Jan 23, 2012 10:33 PM PST reply actions  

wouldn't mind this being out 1999

get over .500 and see the positive development of a young core. Definitely don’t see this as our 2002 team – post glanced over huge power gaps and the established core of the Big Three – those guys were AUTOMATIC.

We certainly have a derth of pitching prospects to find our next big 3 in 2 years. I hope Anderson/Braden come back, but they are big question marks and I wouldn’t expect solid production until next season.

If we still had The Hammer, he would have been our power supply, without him we’re in a tight spot (I’m a DAPER DAN MAN!!!!)

Reddick/Cowgill to develop as league average (or better than T-Long) production in 2013

crossed fingers that one of Carter/Taylor/Allen/Kila can find their way to 25HR power.

Hell, if Seth Smith (based on previous posts breaking down the sample size issue) can find a way to get around LHP, we could have our Jermaine Dye.

Of course, all of this is reliant upon health, and everyone playing at or above their potential. A very unrealistic feat, but hell, it’s the offseason, might as well let the buds of new grass bring hope renewed.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Jan 24, 2012 5:16 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Recced for the O Brother Where Art Though reference.

Yeah, 1999 seems like a more plausible comp…

… the key I will be watching for is to see if the team improves over the course of the season. One thing we often forget is that many of the teams from that era started out really, really slow. As younger players were integrated into the roster and grew into their roles, they improved and thus the team improved.

This year, I think the team has the potential to start out pretty slow, but really start picking it up in July/August as the younger guys supplant the older ones and get a little bit more experience. If that happens, I’ll know we’re onto something with this group of prospects.

by RickeySteals on Jan 24, 2012 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Ugh... where art thou

good grief Rickey, learn how to spell…

by RickeySteals on Jan 24, 2012 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Brother, where Art Howe

Difference of opinion among my community is a sign of the bounty of God.

by iglew on Jan 24, 2012 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm inclined to agree, but for different reasons

While I certainly don’t think we’ll approach 2002, I don’t think we’ll be the worst or second worst team in the majors next year. Reaching .500 would be amazing and more than some people would ask for, but I certainly don’t think we’re fielding the Bad News Bears out there this season, even if it looks that way on paper.

That said, I don’t think the player comparisons are apt yet. We just don’t know how these guys will mesh as a team and how well they’ll grow over the season yet. We’ll get more information in a month, so we’ll see.

by RedOscar on Jan 24, 2012 9:22 AM PST reply actions  

A fun walk down memory lane...

‘02 was a pinnacle for me as an A’s fan: I went to a grip of games including the 20th win during the streak and a few years back I got to know and love that ‘02 crew through replicating the entire 162-game season with Strat-o-matic. During that marathon I concluded that in many ways the ’02 A’s were over-achievers. As has been discussed on this site, the 20-game streak was an incredible rarity and unlikely to ever be replicated. So there was definitely a magic & a chemistry to that team. They were classic underdogs and played the way a champion team has to play: a bunch of career years & it seemed like there was always someone (often Tejada & Chavvy, but lots of love from the bench too) coming through with a clutch performance. With that pitching staff, the team went out every day (especially in the 2nd half) feeling like they could win & that’s something that’s been missing for a long time in Oakland.

When I look at this comparison between ‘02 & ’12 teams, it does give me some hope for a solid season, BUT for that to happen we need career years out of a handful of guys. We need the new bats to contribute robustly & not fizzle as so many imports of recent years (DeJesus, Matsui, et al.) have done. We need our pitching to not be rag-tag but instead be an exciting, energetic group of youngsters who perform up to their potential…and the jury is out on which direction we’re heading in. Perhaps most importantly we need to be healthy. On the shoestring budget that our Athletics boast, we can’t afford for too many hits on this front.

Of course the massive white pachyderm in the room is whether or not this team is heading south. And – for better or worse – this conundrum is what defines our squad currently. To be defined by indecision is a really difficult place to be and from the owners all the way down to us fans, it is vexing. If THE DECISION comes down soon I have a feeling that a massive weight will be lifted off our collective shoulders and we may see the team on the field respond in some surprising ways. Who knows, if they can manage to stick around the division leaders for the first half, Billy may do one of his classic mid-season deals or two to patch a hole/invigorate the club. And then we may have something to get excited about this summer. Wouldn’t that be awesome?

by tjr800 on Jan 24, 2012 11:03 AM PST reply actions  

not awsome

basically if we trade away prospects we just picked up for a short term fill, we’ll remain stuck in neutral (kinda good/kinda bad).

I would rather let the chips fall where they may this season, ride the team out as-is and see if some guys develop.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Jan 24, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

The biggest differences

are the threat of making a mistake. If your line up is Tejada/Chavy/Dye/Justice…1 bad pitch to any of those players resulted in runs for us. This seasons team isn’t near that level. A bad pitch to Sizemore or Penny is a double on a good day. We don’t have the fear that consistant home run power brings.

Some of you might think that it is over rated but the feeling of seeing someone like Griffey or Bonds in the box, the feeling is like this guy can change the game with one swing and that’s what having a formidable middle of the line up can do as well.

by A's Nation on Jan 24, 2012 12:25 PM PST reply actions  

As a fan I can't help but agree with you.

One of the reasons I am looking forward to 2012 is that we do not know what to expect. The A’s could be very bad, but then again they could really surprise. We will have to watch to find out.

by Hang Man on Jan 24, 2012 2:14 PM PST reply actions  

I agree that the 2012 team may not be as bad as most are expecting

but I wouldn’t compare it to the 2002 team. As badly as they played in the first two months of that season, having three proven all star pitchers (the Big 3) plus offensive stars like Miggy and improving stars like Chavvy mean that the A’s had very recognized and proven players, so their putrid start was considered underachieving.

by OaklandSi on Jan 25, 2012 1:41 PM PST reply actions  

Go A's

I’ll be hopeful. When are World Series tickets on sale?

by coachmmm on Jan 25, 2012 9:09 PM PST reply actions  

if the A's are even close to contending around late August

season ticket holders begin to get their seat reservation forms in the mail. Single game seats would go on sale a couple fo weeks later (assuming the A’s are still in contention). I remember getting my seat reservation form in 2010 on a day when they were losing in the most humiliating fashion…coincidence, of course.

by OaklandSi on Jan 26, 2012 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

My Man...

I love the optimism. I think more than what most folks are pointing out in regards to it not being a very accurate comparison, you must consider that while the division was not exactly a cake walk in 2002, we did not share it with, in my opinion, the most well rounded team in MLB (Texas), nor Albert Pujols. It is going to be a tough fight to win match ups with our rivals this year. However, everything else you are looking at, I agree…you are not very far off my friend. A good read, Mike, and thank you.

Oh…one thing I will take a bit of exception to….
"
3B: Chavez Sizemore: No discussion. Chavez’s 2002 season will be better than any season Sizemore ever has."

Chavvy was a beast, but Scott Sizemore, I firmly believe, is going to be the wildcard on this team that surprises everybody. I am not willing to say that this will be the year, but watch this young man closely. Look around the web at Tigers forums. There is a reason that Tiger fans, to this day are upset about that trade. Well probably not now, as they are high on Prince’s signing, but nobody in the D was happy to see him go.

This Message brought to you by Lew "what's an RBI?" Wolff, and John "I own a whatball team?" Fisher.

by cwg46and2 on Jan 31, 2012 11:04 AM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
A's relocation option from a legal expert on the issue
Oakland_athletics_team_logo_photofile_small
Prospects 1Q Report

Recent FanPosts

100_1536_small
My new smarts on the Fanpost, and Mr. Offseason is born, and getting to know me
Small
GOG 2012 #18: The Twins have a shiny new park, and not much else
Small
Gotta Be Their Pitching
Hardly-boys_small
Minor League notes on Major League Day Off
Small
Cespedes Upate?
Small
The SF Warriors, the LA Raiders and the Oakland A's
Photo__11__small
COG #17 - Yankees vs. Athletics or Spank me! Spank me!
100_1536_small
What to do? What to do?
Small
Fans Should Buy the A's
Reg3_small
Tom Milone's Nickname

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Front Page Writers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Img_1877_small Billy Frijoles

Img_0653_small dwishinsky

Sb_nation1_small ahhall

Front Page Writers

Smiley_face_small gigglingone

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

60-minutes-clock_small cuppingmaster

Patpicturebucky2_small YonYonson

Img_3830_small David Fung

Moderators

Photofunia-5c770b_small coffee roaster

Denver_small Colorado Fan

Ls_logo100_small LoneStranger

Thumbs_up_small LongTimeFan

Marty_profile_in_green_small mrod

Babycomputergeek_small paris7

Img_0115_small Tutu-late