Salary Floors and You: How Much Do We Need to Spend?
by DanHennessey31 on Jan 12, 2012 9:14 AM PST
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PrintWith the trades of Andrew Bailey, Trevor Cahill, and Gio Gonzalez, I hope we're now all on the same page. 2015 or bust. Over the next two years, there will be a lot of baseball that is difficult to watch. Hopefully, there's growth and signs that the future is in fact bright. I'm not inventing any new doctrine with this next statement, but I'd rather watch a terrible team on which each player is under 25 than a mediocre team with a bunch of veterans that leave little to the imagination.
Which would be good for a number of reasons. Most obviously perhaps, building a baseball team internally, whether through the draft, trades for prospects, or international signings, is the most cost effective manner by which to build. The A's have no choice but to use cost-effective means to build a team. You may have seen a major motion picture describing this phenomenon. Another side effect of a roster full of young players (meaning pre-arbitration) is that they're ridiculously cheap. Not one of them will make a million dollars in a season. Having a roster full of players with less than three years experience would create a payroll as low as $20 million.
That said, the MLB Players Association has certain....let's call it expectations. The MLBPA is one of the most powerful unions in operation, made so by fierce leader Marvin Miller and helped enormously by the Peter Seitz decision regarding Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally in 1975, effectively creating free agency. The players association would never allow a team to artificially hold salaries down by having no veterans on the roster, despite that being the optimal strategy for the organization. There's a breakeven point at which the A's could satisfy the MLBPA while spending as little money as possible. Where is that point?
Here's a breakdown of the A's payroll over the last ten years (courtesy of Cot's Contracts):
- 2011: $67,094,000
- 2010: $58,304,900
- 2009: $62,310,000
- 2008: $47,967,126
- 2007: $79,366,940
- 2006: $62,242,079
- 2005: $55,425,762
- 2004: $59,425,667
- 2003: $50,260,834
- 2002: $40,004,167
- Nationals 2007: $37,347,500
- Marlins 2009: $36,834,000
- Marlins 2007: $30,507,000
- Rays 2007: $24,123,500
- Marlins 2008: $21,811,500
- Just for kicks, the 2006 Marlins had an Opening Day payroll of $14,998,500!)
- The minimum for 2011 was $38,176,000 for the Royals, followed by around $42 million for the Pirates and Rays.
They've spent between $40 and 80 million in each of the last ten seasons, averaging about $58 million. In the last five years that average is $63 million with a minimum of $48 million. Let's round and call the minimum $50 million, which probably accounts for a small bit of inflation and the like.
I went back through each team's payroll for the last five years to find the smallest payrolls. Here's the bottom five:
After re-signing Coco Crisp, a move that raised some eyebrows around here, the A's have eight players under contract for next year for just over $28 million. They have 31 more players on the 40-man roster with under three years of experience, meaning they'll be paid between $200,000 and $900,000 for the coming season. If we call that $600,000 per player, that's another $10 million, putting us shy of $40 million in total team payroll. The A's have made it very clear that they don't plan to contend this coming season, so $40 million might be enough to satisfy the MLBPA.
Of course, the A's are short on outfielders, and someone had to play centerfield. It just so happens that that someone likely won't be around when the A's have a chance to be good again, but it's not hard to imagine Coco earning his $6 million this season. He could prove to be a valuable trade chip this summer or next offseason. But I think his contract as much as anything was about making sure the A's spend enough money on players to not hear from Michael Weiner and his posse at the MLBPA this winter, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two more like it still to come (looking at you, Cody Ross).
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Coco's a No-Go
The A’s won’t be able to use Coco as a trade chip for prospects because right now, the only way to get a decent prospect is to trade a front-line young player, and even then you’re probably only going to get pitchers, not position players. Trading Crisp will most likely yield another older former top prospect or a kid with a low ceiling. If Gio Gonzalez, Trevor Cahill and Andrew Bailey combined can’t get a top position prospect, why would Crisp? And the A’s at this point don’t need another pitching prospect.
I'm not optimistic about Coco's trade value
but I’m still in favor of bringing him back simply because the A’s need someone to play the outfield. People on AN have been getting worked up over the fact that Coco will take away at-bats from the younger guys, but I guarantee that whoever is 7th on the outfield depth chart at the end of spring training will still end up getting significant numbers of major league at-bats.
Agreed: I think Coco was a good signing and we needed to spend anyway.
Enter arbitrary sig line here
by theoriginalrods on Jan 12, 2012 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
Agree on trading Coco
It wouldn’t be for much anyway, given that it was a two-year deal and next year he’ll be a 34-year old centerfielder whose value relies heavily on his defense.
by DanHennessey31 on Jan 12, 2012 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
just checked the A's website
merging the LF/CF/RF depth charts, I get:
- Crisp
- Taylor
- Reddick
- Cowgill
- Mitchell
Plus you could get some outfield play from Carter (listed as 1B/DH), Allen (listed as 1B), and Rosales (listed as SS/3B).
I think everyone I just listed will get at least one outfield start for the 2012 A’s.
I'm okay with having Coco
Some veteran presence is necessary on the team, and he can help stabilize the outfield. But I think he has absolutely no trade value, and anyone who thinks he can be flipped for anyone with value is just plain wrong.
I tend to agree with you here
if a contending team wanted him they could have signed him instead of having to give up a player for him.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
If the A's fall short of the "floor"
They should look into signing a Rich Harden or Roy Oswalt to a one-year deal to push them over. These types of players have trade deadline trade value, plain and simple. Also gives the A’s a chance to let the pitching prospects mature in Sacramento if need be. The starting pitching depth contrary to many people’s claims is not particularly deep at the MLB level for us right now.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Jan 12, 2012 9:24 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I really like the idea of bringing in Oswalt
I think the A’s should bring in at least 2 more free agents. Oswalt would be a great pick-up. He unlike Crisp can bring decent prospects at the trade deadline. Free Agents can add to a team with realatively little negatives. I don’t think 1 more starting pitcher will crush the development of the young guys. Also, I just don’t think Beane will resist a true steal of a bargain.
by Yellowhorse on Jan 12, 2012 10:23 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I sort of like the Oswalt idea
but I really want them to be in the bottom 5 for the next couple years so we can get a top 5 pick or 2. Oswalt may pull some prospects at the deadline, but ironically, he may help us win too much if that makes sense.
Oswalt
Signing Oswalt if he seem to be health, could turn into a fucking-A move.
With the MLB seeming to all be showing self control. The A’s could sign Oswalt for around 10 million. Ten starts into the season they then flip him to the Yanks or Sox when Garcia or Cook or Silva have not worked out. If the A’s sign Oswalt for 8 million with a 2 million signing bonus, the team getting would only be on the hook for about 5 million. Maybe Peacock comes up to replace him. He is not here long enough to keep the A’s from sucking. He helps push Parker and Peacock back to AAA, to stop their clock from starting. So many good reasons, if he is health, to make this happen.
How many wins do you think half a season of Oswalt adds?
In his best years his WAR was between 6 and 7, and he’s declined a bit since then. If we trade him in July, then optimistically he’s adding 3 wins.
Now let’s take a look at last year’s reverse standings to see what that translates to. Three more wins does not drop the Astros from #1 to #2. Three wins does not drop the Twins from #2 to #3. Three wins does drop the Mariners by one slot, from #3 to #4.
After that it gets interesting because now there are five teams clumped up with either 71 or 72 wins. As a result, three wins would drop the Orioles from #4 to #7, or the Royals from #5 to #10.
The Royals situation can be seen as the worst-case scenario. If Oswalt really does get us 3 wins, and those wins just happen to span a stretch where a bunch of teams happen to be clumped, he could make us suffer a drop comparable to #5 to #10. But really, how bad is that? Is the #10 pick that much worse than the #5 pick? And that’s worst case. More likely it will be something milder like dropping #3 to #4, or possibly no difference at all.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
If Oswalt is worth 3 wins by July 31st, I'll eat my hat.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Jan 12, 2012 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
Is that 3 wins or 3 "wins"?
If Oswalt is 10-3 with the A’s by July 31st, I don’t care how many “wins” he’s worth.
I don't care
I don’t care how many wins he has, if on July 31 or before, he brings a B+ prospect in return as he is traded away
Two things.
Realistically, would Oswalt come here, with other teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rangers after him?
His WAR in 2010 was 4.7, but dipped to 2.5.
Money
For some reason each of those teams have not signed Oswalt yet. The Sox and Yanks are both in a self imposed cap on spending, while Texas is likely only interested if Davish falls though. If the A’s strike fast and hard, they can likely be a high bidder.
The reason for Oswalt coming is that he will get a chance to increase his value in a pitchers park, in a low stress team and know that come July he will be moved to a contender. In addition to the A’s being a high bidder.
Yes he was hurt last year, but before that he had something like 8 years in a row of making 30 starts a year. If health he is a great pick up.
Oswalt is a way better option than a Damon, Harden, Ludwick or Ross,
Furthermore
If he signs with the A’s knowing full well they will deal him at the deadline, he could very well be better assured of being with a winner if one of those teams stumbles out of the gate or something or is befelled by injuries and is buried in teh standings unexpectedly.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I like it if he's healthy obviously.
I don’t think we need to see another Ben Sheets type contract given out to a player that will likely just get hurt. But I don’t know that Oswalt’s injury history is on par with Sheets. And if he pitches well he should be able to be traded to someone for something decent.
And as far as free agent pitchers go he’s probably the one that will get us the most in a trade, right?
I don't think that Harden qualifies as a type of player that has
trade deadline trade value, plain and simple.
I mean, what kind of trade deadline did he provide us with last year? And why is there any reason to believe he’ll be any healthier or valuable this year?
The same really goes for Crisp. One of the reasons few if any teams would be willing to part with even mid level prospects in exchange for him is that his health has been such an issue in the past, that he’s just not reliable enough to take a flier on. Teams weren’t even really interested in shelling out free agent money for him, a low cost risk, comparably, considering the insurance involved, because of his inability to consistently stay on the field.
The Red Sox were going to send a prospect in Anderson to us for him
That deal fell thru cuz of the medicals yeah but there was interest in him and inexplicably the Red Sox went in another direction. It happened so late I bet it stymied any chance to make something else work out. Then the Indians claimed him off waivers in August. There was clear interest. Coco deals went NO WHERE and understandly so.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
If Coco had trade value he would have been flipped at the deadline last year.
I think it’s all about spending the $ to keep MLB happy. Good read, and agree that there will be at least one more signing before opening day. I’m just hoping it’s a pitcher, not an aging veteran with a declining bat.
Enter arbitrary sig line here
by theoriginalrods on Jan 12, 2012 9:26 AM PST reply actions
flip
I think each year is different. While last year Coco was not flipped, that in it self does not mean that he could not be flipped. Last year, there might have been a few reasons. Did any team need a centerfielder? If for example, if Ellberry was hurt for the Sox, likely there would have been interest. Also, and this is just a guess, was there a chance that Coco could have been or gotten to a type B comp FA? If there was little interest, does Beane just hold out hope that Coco can be a B?
All that being said, with Coco signing for two years, that makes it much harder to flip him.
Good thing we're not looking at Johnny Damon or anything
Oh wait. Damn.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Jan 13, 2012 1:15 AM PST up reply actions
Eff it...
Spend like crazy and move to the high end of the $40 to $480 million range, $300 million minimum.
You can edit it and fix it, no harm done...
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
One word...Diamondbacks
The Diamondbacks went from last in 2010 to first in 2011. They had the 28 worst pitching staff in 2010, by ERA. After a few changes and “going young” they ranked 14th in pitching in 2011. They “lost” Dan Haren, Edwin Jackson, and Rodrigo Lopez from the 2010 staff, yet vastly improved. Rookie Josh Collmenter and a few additional no names lead them to the playoffs.
The offense stayed about the same with a team OPS of .736 in 2010 and a .740 in 2011. Who is to say Oakland can’t accomplish the same feat.
The A’s were 25th in OPS in 2011 leaving plenty of room for improvement. We have had a few fans chime in with predictions of win/loss record for 2012, but with all of the rookies such predictions are very difficult to support. They could actually lose 100 games…but then again they could be the Diamondbacks of 2012!
In the NL West, or the NL in general maybe. The AL is just too strong for such a feat to be accomplished.
by theblackpearl on Jan 12, 2012 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Anytime I see "feat" and "accomplished" in the same sentence...
…I think of this exchange from “Happy Gilmore”
“Trying to reach the green from here, Shooter?”
“I’m afraid that’s impossible, sir.”
“I beg to differ. Happy Gilmore accomplished that feat no more than an hour ago.”
“Well, moron, good for Happy GilmoOH MY GOD.”
(at the risk of turning this thread into a “Happy Gilmore” quote barrage)
by DanHennessey31 on Jan 12, 2012 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Wanna go to Red Lobster later?
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Jan 12, 2012 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
Gold jerseys? Green jerseys? Who gives a shit?
Did you ever hear of the the Seattle Seven? ... that was me. And six other guys
Upton produced 6.4 WAR last year
I could see any of several of our guys putting up 3.2 WAR next year (Barton, Reddick, Coco, Weeks, Sizemore…)
John 3:16
"If they want to pay me like Mike Gallego, I’ll play like Gallego." - Rickey Henderson
I also could see several replacement level seasons
Carter, Taylor, Barton, Allen
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Jan 12, 2012 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
we may improve in some positions but such a dramatic turnaround is damn near impossible given that the Rangers and Angels play in this division...
by Billy Frijoles on Jan 12, 2012 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
like others have said, the A's could be the 2012 D-Backs
if Carter, Allen, and Suzuki play like Upton, Young, and Montero did. And if someone pitches like Kennedy and Hudson (some combo of McCarthy, Anderson, Braden, Outman, and Moscoso)
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Jan 12, 2012 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
pass whatever you are drinking
certainly, expectations could not possibly be lower. Opponents will rest their starters against us and still crush us 3 out of 4. We will rejoice if we do not lose 100 games.
Baja been here
I don't expect it to happen
the odds are way against it, I’m just saying it could happen.
my offical prediction is in the crystal ball thread. I don’t think they lose 100, it has only happened once in Oakland history.
I also don’t think opponents will rest their starters, I always thought players rest if they are hurt or slumping not because an opponent is bad (except for maybe in September when some teams are out of the race.) It would be interesting for someone to research that though.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I love Coco
because he’s a lot of fun. But I think it’s extremely unlikely he’ll be a “valuable trade chip”.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Agreed on both counts
Coco is awesome. With him coming back and all the youngsters getting time, I’m more excited about this season than I have been since 2009.
I don't see why not
He keeps getting underpaid in terms of $/WAR. Also, he was 2.2 WAR this last year with -5 UZR, and I’m almost positive he’s more like 0-3 UZR. He’s a useful player.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Jan 13, 2012 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
Define: useful.
There is some utility to him obviously, but it is a strange mix of skills that makes him hard to place. I think his trade value is limited at best.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
A league-average hitter with good speed and plus defense
Someone will be interested in him
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Jan 13, 2012 7:05 PM PST up reply actions
Who is Brandon Moss?
I was reading Al Yellon’s Baseball Nation article on AAAA players…and he had this to say:
1) Brandon Moss, age 27: once the No. 72 overall prospect in MLB (Baseball America, 2005), Moss was supposed to be the Next Big Thing for the Red Sox. He was shipped to the Pirates in the Jason Bay deal, then wound up with the Phillies organization. He never stopped hitting; in 2011 he hit .275/.368/.509 with 23 HR for Triple-A Lehigh Valley. He’s got more MLB time than most on this list (749 PA with a .682 OPS); could be a candidate for a breakout season. He’ll be in spring training with the A’s.
He names Moss the #1 AAAA Hitter, which I guess is a backhanded compliment if there ever was one, but basically thinks he has a chance. I haven’t really seen much about him on here. With our pathetic OFs in camp, do you think this guy has a chance to make the team?
by Billy Frijoles on Jan 12, 2012 12:25 PM PST reply actions
He could be the third coolest Brandon on our team.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Who is Brandon Moss?
He’s the guy who hit a game-tying ninth inning home run against Huston Street in Japan in the 2008 season opener. It was really early in the morning when I watched the game (because of the time zone difference) so I was particularly grumpy. I think I’m still angry about that one.
by LongLiveLangerhans on Jan 12, 2012 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
If were just handing out cash to suffice MLBPA why not hire Bonds to see if he's still a draw in the Bay Area?
Maybe he could also push/ sell supplements during A’s 2012 Fan Fest and garner up some “JUICED UP” Root Beer Floats with McGwire, Canseco, Tejada, Harden, and Giambi??
2012 is about cutting costs to ensure Wolff gets his profit!!!
Every man for himself...
If Brad gets cute and tries to charges Lew too much, our backup is Charlie Sheen!
Every man for himself...
Bonds = do not want
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I don't want him either! I don't want 80% of the players on our current roster either! :)
these are very tough times!!!
Every man for himself...
I care more about the team's reputation as the steriods team
than I do about this year’s W-L record.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
You mean in case anyone's forgotten about Canseco, McGwire, Giambi and Tejada?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2012 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
Hee
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2012 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
Meanwhile, this.
Bob Nightengale @BNightengale
@linusalf #Athletics were discussed first time at executive council and Selig says now on frontburner #mlb
Bob Nightengale @BNightengale
@24x7NFL yes everything looking very good for #Athletics move. Huge strides made #mlb
Mark Purdy@MercPurdy
Commissioner Selig says that A’s/Giants ballpark issue is “really on the front burner” + MLB is working on it “at a rather quick pace.”
Mark Purdy @MercPurdy
More significant: Selig indicates he won’t let any SJ ballpark ballot issue proceed until Giants’ front group drop suit vs city over EIR.
I’d be shocked if it didn’t happen by the end of next week. Potentially huge news.
by BWH on Jan 12, 2012 2:52 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
I want so much to believe.
Do you think Lucy is actually going to hold that football in place this time?
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
by UrgentMirth on Jan 12, 2012 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Lucy never holds the football long enough
by robertmelvin on Jan 12, 2012 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
I think there's an open bold tag somewhere around here.
You're remarkable in a funny way. Or funny in a remarkable way.
I'm clapping like Mama Klump saying "Hercules Hercules Hercules"
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Jan 12, 2012 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Looks like it.
It’s fixed now, at least.
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
"at a rather quick pace"
When I think of the commissioner’s office being described as quick, it makes me think of one of the Molina brothers being described as quick. Not the most accurate statement ever made…
Maybe a “quicker pace” than they had previously been moving would be a better way to put it.
I bleed green and gold!!! (my doctor is worried)
by Vaillant on Jan 12, 2012 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not on the front burner
it’s in the worlds slowest slow-cooker.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The A's want to bring Johnny Damon back?
But Jonah Hill proved he wasn’t worth the money.
But seriously, folks....
First: I love the Coco signing...
second, my guess the A’s will be somewhere around $45 million and be safe from the untion bosses; and I am +1, +1, +1 that I would rather see an extra 10 loss season, say 60 losses with all the young studs going all out, than a 70 loss season with a bunch of 1-year expensive veterans sprinkled into the mix, as in recent years.
You must mean 60 wins, because 60 losses means we won 102 games... lol
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Jan 12, 2012 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
Well, he did say "all the young studs going all out"
When you’ve got multiple young studs, and they’re all going all out, you usually don’t win only 60 games.
I meant 60 wins, but now that I think about it with all those
young studs running around doring their thing, maybe I got it right the first time!!
by robertmelvin on Jan 13, 2012 12:11 AM PST up reply actions
Great piece
i think they are short and would guess another $5 MM will do it. While admit not likely, not inconceivable that CoCo could be moved for some value if A’s eat salary. Let’s assume hitting .290,, has 30 sb’s and playing his best cf at break—- just need contender with hole in cf and at top of order and A’s willing eat salary. Isn’t that what we are talking here— A’s spending money for purpose of spending money, not because it is what they would do for baseball reasons?
I agree great piece
I think this was overlooked by a lot of people to shed light on what has to happen in Oakland. ie we have to sign some veterns to please the union.
I also agree with some of the comments about A’s need to sign some high risk high reward veterns like Oswalt, or Penny, hope they can do well and if they do well trade them at the deadline. It’s a win win considering the pitcher gets to play for a contender if they pitch well. A get a prospect.
Crisp can also be traded at the deadline if he plays well in the first half. I believe this is why he decided to stay in Oakland and why the A’s signed him. During the off season he said he °wants to play for a contender° I bet Beane convinced him he can play for a contender if he plays well in Oakland. And this signing pleases the union.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Jan 12, 2012 11:47 PM PST reply actions
Off subject by Associated Press
PARADISE VALLEY, Ariz. — Commissioner Bud Selig says Major League Baseball is working “at a rather quick pace” to resolve the proposed move of the Oakland Athletics to a proposed new ballpark in San Jose.
Selig says there was a comprehensive presentation on the situation to the owners’ executive council on Wednesday. Selig says he doesn’t want to get into any details yet but the issue is, in his words, “very much on the front burner.”
The A’s want to move to San Jose but the San Francisco Giants have had territorial rights to San Jose since 1993. Selig appointed a committee in March 2009 to evaluate the issue facing the Bay Area teams.
Looks like the Mariners and Yankees are doing a Pineda-Montero trade
@JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
montero is traded for pineda
https://twitter.com/#!/JonHeymanCBS/status/157984607516639232
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
what else did the M's get? sounds like a pooptastic trade for the M's?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
From reading LL, the current information is Pineda/Campos for Montero/Noesi, but that's not been confirmed
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
that seems like a lot to give up given what the a's got for cahill/gonzalez and the pads got for latos. no?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
M's fans don't seem particularly pleased, as a whole
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
i would be skeptical too, if there's any question about montero sticking at catcher
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
this.
If Montero is a 1B/DH…not really that great. If Montero is a C, well, they’ve solved a pretty big problem.
by Billy Frijoles on Jan 13, 2012 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure many people still believe Montero is a C, but maybe the Mariners see something everyone else doesn't?
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
I guess that depends on what you think of Pineda
He’s probably better than Gio, Cahill, or Latos.
by Billy Frijoles on Jan 13, 2012 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
Glad to see Pineda off the M's
I have to say I’m not getting that trade from the M’s point of view.
But seriously, folks....
my view as well. montero is a future dh. that's a lot to give up for a hitter no matter how much pitching talent the m's have coming.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
well if they find several million dollars between the couch cushions they can sign Oswalt or Jackson
how does the package of Montero and Noesi compare to what we got for Gio?
I’d say it’s pretty comparable, but we got the value spread out over more players who are further away from playing in the big leagues. So, more geared toward 2015 than 2013. I just wish we could have at least one player who looked like a star like Montero.
I much prefer what the A's got
(partly due to Montero’s long-term defensive limitations), and Pineda is likely to be as good or better than Gio, is cheaper and under contract control longer. More to the point, this is the most any team was willing to offer for Pineda??? I highly doubt that. Pineda is an incredibly valuable “trade chip” and the Mariners need a lot of help. And all they got was one potentially great hitter who doesn’t play good defense? Horrible trade for the M’s, IMO.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
M's didn't just give up Pineda
M’s gave up their #5 prospect in Campos as well.
Sickles:
5) Jose Campos, RHP, Grade B: We need to see him at higher levels and his secondary stuff needs refinement, but his upside is very high, he throws hard, and already throws strikes.
I don’t see how Pineda was not worth as much, if not more than montero who is (basically) a 1B/DH and also blocked by Texeria & ARod.
Hmm – looks like Sickles had Noesi as Yank’s #5 in 2011
Hector Noesi, RHP, Grade B: Love the control+velocity combo.
So i guess overall it’s Pineda for montero and Noesi (who is MLB ready for Campos who is a few years away).
For the A’s
Had we not already traded Gio, this trade would have lit a huge fire under the Blue Jays to give up the farm to get him. Jays are coming into their window and w/o pitching depth they’re going nowhere fast.
I bet Beane will be wondering what could have been on that front. I like the package we got from the Nats, but I think we all would have preferred the depth of the Jays system and that we would have actually added some big bats.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
as far as I recall the Yanks have never been willing to deal Montero
to anyone except the Mariners. Just before the 2010 trade deadline they were all set to send him to Seattle in a deal for Cliff Lee – and we know it was the Mariners who changed their minds at the last minute and sent him to Texas in exchange for Justin Smoak.
Interestingly, if Montero can’t stick at catcher he’ll be playing 1B and DH. As far as I know Smoak only plays 1B.
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