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Around SBN: So Let's Talk About Hulk Too, I Suppose

For the Love of Moneyball: The Failure of Sabermetrics In the Absence of Necessary Resources

Billy-beane_medium

There’s guns across the river aimin’ at ya
Lawman on your trail, he’d like to catch ya
Bounty hunters, too, they’d like to get ya
Billy, they don’t like you to be so free

Star-divide

Money_ball_medium

So here we are.  Friday, the movie drops its snapshot of perhaps the greatest single achievement of our beloved Athletics franchise.  World Series come and go; the hotter team usually can beat the better team and there's a champion every season unless it's 1994 and you're Bud Selig.  So thank your lucky stars you aren't him -- or, despite his best efforts, the Montreal Expos -- and instead revel in the idea that what happened in late August and early September of 2002 will in all likelihood never happen again.  I say The Streak is the A's single greatest accomplishment as a franchise chiefly due to its irreproducibility... too much can go wrong night to night for a team to be able to reel off 20 wins in a row in almost any sport.  I'd not be at all surprised if no one does it again, ever.  The only downside of it I can see is that the '02 club peaked too soon and lost steam before the overarching task of winning it all was achieved. 

Sp_athletics4_medium
Veni, Vidi, Vici... Viginti.

For me, this is where the worm started to turn: when the 2002 A's, instead of taking their place alongside the best teams of all time, became arguably one of the best teams of all time NOT to win it all.  A club that should have had their own Hall of Fame display instead ended up in the same breath as the 2001 Seattle Mariners or the 1993 San Francisco Giants or the 1975 Boston Red Sox.  That is, the grand roll call of the Coulda Beens and not the That Was the Year that Was list where it belonged.  You could maybe trace the turning of the hourglass from that moment -- when Michael Lewis dotted the last i's and crossed the last t's of his chronicle of what was probably the quintessential Moneyball squad, the MVP GiambiJuice having left the winter before to force Billy B. to go all-in with The New Way of Doing Things that -- once the book gave all the secrets away to the richer teams -- never again really got as high as that magical late summer run for the ages that will, as I said, probably never be replicated in our lifetimes.

Djoa810p3_medium
No Justice, no peace.

Of course there were other A's teams that immediately followed that one, and some were very, very good teams that had a very realistic shot at the title.  2003 and 2006 -- the latter with quintessential Moneyball reclamation project and prospective 1st-ballot HoF'er The Big Hurt, in his final star turn, leading the charge -- certainly spring to mind.  There's no shame in saying that for the first half of the first decade of this century, the road to the MLB promised land -- and the championship trophy that is its greatest symbol -- ran directly through the concrete canyons of the crumbling edifice that sits like a lumbering prehistoric beast from another, less hospitable time near the intersection of Hegenberger Road and South Coliseum Way in Oakland, California.  That for an AL team to grasp the ring, they had to beat us, and they damn well knew it.  Those years were (just plain) crazy and they hold indelible and beautiful memories for all of us despite the failure of those A's to finish the job.

5016533_a_medium
Mulder, it's me...

Now, make no mistake: this is in no way to indict or diminish the world-changing innovation and paradigm-expanding impact of the sabermetric philosophy or the widespread effect the advent of the new statistical models have had on the sport of baseball as we know it.  We should all be extremely proud that we root for a franchise that has changed the fundamental landscape of the sport which it inhabits so many times in so many eras.  When you hear me rant and rave about how the A's, considering the influence they have wielded (especially in their tenure in Oakland), ought to be a globally-recognized brand on par with the New York Yankees and Dallas Cowboys of the world, this is what I am on about.  You could honestly make the case -- especially during the last 40 years -- that whether it be the length of their hair or the syringes in their travel cases or their complete Futureworld transformation of the statistical side of MLB, this franchise has had perhaps more real-world impact on the trajectory of the sport than even the Yankees have had in that same time frame.  Yeah, ESPN, I said it.  It's f*cking true too, despite the sycophantic and obsequious efforts of propaganda channels like yours to make the conversation all about the rich fools with all the jewels.

Sp_ashowe_medium
Have I showed you my Magic OPS Machine? It's right behind this curtain.

But we have to face facts: it's like anything else in life in that to succeed you have to be able to afford rent and food.  What we have seen since the air left the sails in 2007 (never yet to return) shows us that spare parts and number charts don't a perennial contender make.  You have to have the $$ to combine the best of the sabermetrical ability to uncover the hidden gems with the good old fashioned money-muscle to pay for the necessary Big Pieces any team needs to really compete on a consistent, no less elite, basis... especially since the Steroid Era the A's helped usher in ended and there are no more swollen-headed sluggers laying around to be claimed off waivers like some sort of Dial-a-Mutant-Masher service.  A persuasive, if uncomfortable, argument can be made that in letting the sabercat out of the bag of tricks via the worldwide impact of the book -- now, years later, a Major Motion Picture -- the Athletics shot themselves in the foot and gave a great deal of ammunition to the wealthier clubs like the Red Sox to take the best of the Moneyball methods and marry them to their economically superior resources, thus producing an even wider gap between the haves and the have-nots and relegating our team to an even-more-irrelevant status than that which precipitated BB's impetus to begin to look under all the rocks for new ways of keeping up in the first place.  It's been a quick and ugly slide for the Athletics from The Mighty Underdog to luxury-tax Welfare Queen.  And although it isn't really Billy's fault -- after all, how many times can he be expected to reinvent a 150-year-old wheel? -- it's hard to look at the A's and not see a green-and-gold Rainbow Trout flopping around on the deck of expectations a franchise in its ultra-tenuous position cannot hope to meet without the necessary moolah to supplement the ability to take pitches until the opposing pitcher just goes, "You know what? Here's a flat fastball... now hit a three-run homer already so we can all go home."

A_long_i_medium
Manny Ramirez probably still sees this play in his deepest dreadlocked nightmares.

There's all sorts of other negatives you could argue, too.  For instance, all you have to do is picture Daric Barton taking Ball Four and flipping his bat away to strut down to first base like he is Prince Fielder and he's just hit one 777 feet, and you get that in the last 5 years the Patience Approach so vital to the on-base-centricity of Moneyballin' has left the patient on the Critical list, supplying a product -- in what must always be primarily viewed as an Entertainment Industry -- that ranks just ahead of Watching Grass Grow to the power of Watching Cars Rust in terms of excitement and the overall energy any entertainment endeavor needs to draw interest and buzz to itself.  We all laugh at the egotistical a-hole C.J. Wilson and his "Lawyerball" characterizations, but he isn't the only one who has accused the A's of  "pimping the walk"... as if being able to lay off a pitch 1.5mm off the outside edge is the Alpha and Omega of baseball success, and not just one among many essential ingredients needed for a team to add up to more than the sum of its parts and not become the exercise in snoozeable mediocrity we have become accustomed to in the time since our last postseason foray.

Billy_beane_medium
Campin' out all night on the veranda
Dealin' cards 'til dawn in the hacienda
Up to Boot Hill they'd like to send ya
Billy, don't you turn your back on me

I guess my point with this little screed is to provide the beginnings of an answer to the questions a lot of people a lot less familiar with the A's than us must be asking as the movie is released: that is, WTF happened?  How did the Athletics get from jerry-rigged juggernaut to flatline FUBAR status in such a short time?  Of course I can't fathom all the reasons for the precipitous decline and to be honest, I'm damn jazzed that this film has been made and stars one of Earth's most in-demand actors as our esteemed, if circumstance-hamstrung, GM.  This causes me to acknowledge with my cursory attempt at analysis the turn for the worse that the A's have taken whilst still taking time to bask in the fact that, for a brief-but-memorable period in the not-too-distant past, our franchise was able to achieve something so unrepeatably awesome that the utterly unprecedented and unique story of how it happened has been enshrined in the annals of overall popular culture like it has with this film.  Now, if we can just scam Optimist Prime onto the Extras section of the DVD to offer commentary detailing exactly how he got to be Brad Pitt's body double...

123440495_be6e44c0c1_o_medium}
Well, how do you explain it?

 

Comment 124 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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I am really sorry about this

I had to repost this because it was supposed to be a sponsored post around the film, but no one told me I had to put it in a special field in the blog tool to get it to be that. DanMerqury informed me of this this morning and when we consulted Blez, he said to just redo it in the correct way and if everyone wanted to comment again, they could do so in this thread.

Again, I apologize for ruining this before it got started, but no one told told me there was a special procedure or at least I never picked up on that until it was way too late.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 1:00 PM PDT reply actions  

Whew. At least we have the ads back. I was worried.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 1:03 PM PDT reply actions   4 recs

To recap my commentary

Defense was newly undervalued several years ago. A’s attempted to remake themselves using defense. This failed.

The end.

"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed

by cuppingmaster on Sep 19, 2011 1:04 PM PDT reply actions  

well, the A;s attempt failed

because the volatile nature of defense. It could work

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Sep 19, 2011 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

It seems like they also felt that players with injury histories were also undervalued.

I also think they incorrectly valued their draft picks. It’s all fine and dandy to say “I have better information than the other guys and I’m gonna draft Bob Jones, who walks a lot, instead of the John Smith, who everyone else wants.” But if no one wants Bob Jones, draft him later. Take Jim Smith now, because he will have trade value in a year.

by ozzman99 on Sep 19, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's their fault

Draft budgets are small potatoes compared to even mediocre player salaries. The A’s eventually did shift into paying more for prospects because that’s where the real value lies. What the A’s SHOULD have done, back in 2002, was go over slot and draft all the best players they could, instead of looking for “value,” which turned out to be valueless.

by richwol1 on Sep 20, 2011 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

yup

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Sep 20, 2011 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unless Jim Smith sucks and is exposed as such, thus negating any trade value.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 20, 2011 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not censorship, g. It's just that EN had to get his hand smacked when he forgot to throw in the sponsor info

You know. Moneyball:

Brad Pitt stars in the real-life tale of Major League Baseball general manager Billy Beane, who built up a winning team despite a decreased budget thanks to his sly use of statistical data to calculate the best — and cheapest — players for his roster.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am sorry guys

I am totally humiliated by what happened, believe me.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm...

Maybe my sarcasm filter is set too low, but it almost sounds like you took me seriously.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 19, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

no you're cool g

I just feel stupid that I missed the boat on how I was supposed to do this post and I wasn’t even high or stoned.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

YOU HAD BEST START BOWING TO YOUR CORPORATE OVERLORDS, EN.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

or wasted?

Blitzed, trippin, on cloud nine, or fried?

by MobiusKlein on Sep 19, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

see? this is what happens when I sober up

bad, bad things happen I am just saying.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

you need to sober down

that’s where you get so drunk, you overflow the BAC CPU back to zero.

by MobiusKlein on Sep 19, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

to quote the legendary Boz Burrell

I need to resume partying back to my birth weight.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, I'm totally stealing this post because it's HILAIROUS

On the main baseball nation site, the “best of the network” post which I’m sure is a Moneyball (Brad Pitt stars in the real-life tale of Major League Baseball general manager Billy Beane, who built up a winning team despite a decreased budget thanks to his sly use of statistical data to calculate the best — and cheapest — players for his roster.) sponsored post COMPLETELY BY COINCIDENCE has one of the best posts evar by Royals Review user Sweep_The_Leg:

THE GILETTE FUSION PROGLIDE WITH LAZERS PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW


Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Keep 'em coming. And speaking of coming, men, don't let ED get you, um, down.

(holds up blue pill)

This message brouth to you by Blue Moneyballs™

by Drone on Sep 19, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

pardon?

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Sep 19, 2011 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

no no, I am well versed in the E.D. jokes.

That was my addition to your joke. Piggy backing if you will

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Sep 19, 2011 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a vision....

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Sep 19, 2011 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just doing my part.

Speaking of parts, mine has been FANTASTIC ever since switching to Head and Shoulders.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love mikev

because he always provides some… wait for it… “piercing” commentary.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm surprised

OddsShark had a 3 to 1 shot that you’d be back with Pantene in a week.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 19, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

To be honest, H&S is just a good all-in-one solution for me

and I found that Pantene didn’t really give me the body or volume I was looking for, you know?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gotta keep it fresh and clean

"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed

by cuppingmaster on Sep 19, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

My hair can't take the heavy body/volume stuff

it’s thick enough to start, makes it just a dead mass.

by MobiusKlein on Sep 19, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I completely agree that The Streak is the As biggest accomplishment

And one of the most amazing MLB accomplishments of all time. I’m disappointed that it doesn’t get more attention. Even in a “30 Teams in 30 Days” segment early this year documenting each team’s 5 top accomplishments, it was only like #3 or #4 by their ranking.

I was at Game #20 and the excitement and tension easily ranked up there with any World Series Game I’ve been to.

Carlos Gonzalez would look nice in one of the corner outfield spots right now

by Miata71 on Sep 19, 2011 1:32 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The biggest accomplishment is the fact that not only does the new Gillette® Fusion® ProGlide™ come with re-engineered blades for more glide, less pull (even if you shave every day!), and anti-clogging rinse slots, but they also have the all new Gillette® Fusion® ProGlide™ POWER, featuring a 25% larger Lubrastrip™ — and GET THIS: the shower-safe ProGlide Power also delivers soothing micro-pulses while its on-board microchip provides consistent power shave after-shave.

now that, my friend, is one hell of an accomplishment.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Brad Pitt shaves with it.

In fact, he shaves EVERYTHING with it.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 19, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

and nary a scratch on him!

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 19, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or her!

"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D

by paris7 on Sep 19, 2011 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, that's a big pain in the ass.

Not bagging on you, EN, you didn’t know. Sorry you were counseled thus. I guess it was too much of a pain in the ass to spend five seconds on saving the original comments.

Anyway, I basically said that Moneyball was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Brought attention to the market inefficiencies themselves, therefore there are less of them to exploit. Since everyone has the same data, it now all comes back to knowing what to do with it, and having the money to put it to any kind of use.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 19, 2011 1:58 PM PDT reply actions  

sorry jeepers

I thought about just reposting the comments in one big long comment, but was counseled that if people were so inclined they could just restate what they said in the first thread. There’s no way, to my knowledge, any way to transfer old comments from one thread intact to a new thread, so again I apologize.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

No need to apologize, good sir.

As I said, you did as you were instructed.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 19, 2011 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

2 actually

DFA and PL78. IIRC Nico was investigating the ability to block that feature…. Dan had some interesting statements in the previous mornings thread. Then again, Dan is always providing great content :)

by hishnik on Sep 19, 2011 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm sure this has been commented on already

but isn’t advertising Moneyball on Athletics Nation akin to advertising Viagra in southern Florida?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 19, 2011 2:11 PM PDT reply actions  

I've Seen The Movie

I was lucky enough in Dallas to see a special screening last week. I should have shared this sooner with y’all at AN but here is my review:

Also some stuff i didn’t put in that i enjoyed:

They changed the outfield wall to say “Fox Sports Net” in Center Field. And hearing the voice of Bill King again almost brought tears to my eyes. Enjoy the movie all. Go A’s.

by munch8 on Sep 19, 2011 2:37 PM PDT reply actions  

HEY EVERYONE

I put this up as a little Easter Egg treat for those of you that recognize the Bob Dylan lyrics from the Sam Peckinpah film Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid, in which Dylan stars and for which he did the soundtrack… I am one of those heretics that thinks that particular score — which includes the classic song “Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door” that everyone and their momma has covered — is the best thing BD ever did.

Anyway here are the raw & unreleased sessions (in lossless FLAC format) for that soundtrack, if anyone’s interested:

Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid sessions pt. 1
Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid sessions pt. 2

This, by way of additional apology & regret for screwing up this post so monumentally that your original comments were erased.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 2:58 PM PDT reply actions  

nope

not the released takes, just unreleased demos.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 20, 2011 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

great version of the song

by tom russell and gretchen peters – you may want to download it.

by ojoe on Sep 19, 2011 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dont think its his best

But the second to last billy on the album can make me cry if only because its such a heartbreaking song.
 “billy dont it make you feel so lowdown, to be hunted by the man who was your friend”

thanks for the DL, ! i need to get the second after work today!

"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."

by jacobo2u on Sep 20, 2011 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

"Vini" would be wines.

Typo or Freudian slip?

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Sep 19, 2011 3:56 PM PDT reply actions  

oh myyyyy

both? I fixed it anyway, thx ig.

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 20, 2011 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Would "blocked players" be Billy's new Moneyball?

Find B level players who have A level guys locked up in front of them?

by AsFan72 on Sep 19, 2011 5:23 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

"Let's disconnect these cables, overturn these tables"

Senor.

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Sep 19, 2011 5:41 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't think Moneyball the book really revealed any secrets of how the A's worked that most people in baseball didn't already know.

In Billy’s conversation with Minaya, he makes a comment about Youkilis being “just a guy we like because he gets on base.” It’s pretty clear that Minaya already knows that the A’s like OBP. Also, it’s not like the walks and homers approach to offense was unique to the A’s. The Yankees of the mid- to late- ’90’s took the same approach. No one ever acknowledges it, but it’s true. The A’s just found a way to do the same thing for way less money. It’s like building a ’69 Camaro in your garage that beats the pants off a Porsche 911.

Another problem I have is when people say “Oh, the A’s love to take a lot of walks, but they haven’t made the playoffs since ‘06, so that approach doesn’t work.” While the A’s were 2nd in the majors in walks in ’06 and ’07, they fell to 10th in ’08, 22nd in ’09, 15th in ’10 and 12th this year.

by ozzman99 on Sep 19, 2011 5:47 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

This is an amazing, amazing article from Pizza Cutter that goes even further.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-triumph-of-moneyball/

Note that in the years before Moneyball, HR and RBI clearly drive the market much more clearly than does OBP. By 2004, the jump in OBP’s popularity had pulled it even, partly because HR and RBI fell in their correlative power. In 2005, OBP was actually the better correlate of salary. Chicks may dig the long ball, but apparently nerds were running the front office of your favorite MLB team.

by danmerqury on Sep 19, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly. The A's couldn't afford OBP anymore.

Not only were they too expensive as FA’s, but they were probably harder to grab in the draft as well.

by ozzman99 on Sep 19, 2011 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

that's probably an astute observation, since it would seem that you could start controlling

for collegiate/high school results in your variable sets. I don’t think the change in market price for FAs hurts us. But I’d bet the farm that the evaluation of draft talent does, and for this reason. sweet addition to a good conversation.

by Drone on Sep 20, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Biggest "secret" exposed via Moneyball...

I think prior to Moneyball draft picks were largely undervalued. Teams didn’t really care about giving up their 1st round pick to grab a situational lefty RP.

That changed after the book came out.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 19, 2011 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

But was that because of the book, or because of escalating salaries?

Do you think teams simply started valuing draft picks and prospects more because free agents were getting more expensive? And maybe the timing of that occurrence, so soon after the release of the book, was just a coincidence?

by ozzman99 on Sep 19, 2011 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

The A's weren't exactly just looking for players that could get on base

But players that had glaring defect that didn’t affect how productive they were as ballplayers as much as the market thought. Low avg high on base sluggers were a market inefficiency. The Yankees did go after high power high on base players, but they generally tried to stay away from low avg ones.

""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous

by Cheezombie on Sep 20, 2011 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

At least the local media loves us.....

Channel 4. Showing live coverage of Brad Pitt on the green carpet at the pemiere. The news anchor described the movie to everyone…“It’s a movie about the A’s former manager Billy Beane.”

by Athletix Man on Sep 19, 2011 6:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Haha

""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous

by Cheezombie on Sep 20, 2011 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know I love you, right?

This comment is so awesome I am tempted to just substitute it for all the pedantic crap I wrote in the initial post.

If you could see me right now, sitting here scarfing down sake maki in Edoko Sushi on University in Berkeley, you’d see that I was applauding and chanting “FSU!!!! FSU!!!!”

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 19, 2011 7:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thanks, but I have nothing new to say

but to quote myself ripping off real writers.

Everybody's got a little light under the sun.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Sep 19, 2011 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is this from your Peanutball series?

It’s excellent, either way

Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!

by UrgentMirth on Sep 20, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

hype machine hyping up

Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.

by johnjahafanclub on Sep 19, 2011 7:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Hey, look, it's the formula for FIP!

"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang

by King Richard on Sep 19, 2011 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know!

Apparently FIP = Brad Pitt.

by danmerqury on Sep 19, 2011 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what's this movie all about?

I’ve been staring at the picture I have as my avatar for the last 5 years.

by PL78 on Sep 19, 2011 8:00 PM PDT reply actions  

Su Slu on with Townsend talking about the premiere

Randy Jackson: "Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were young?"
Idol Contestant: [Nods]

by Berry Jo on Sep 19, 2011 9:18 PM PDT reply actions  

You know what would be awesome?

If someone put up some kind of special thread where people could discuss the Chris Townsend show. We could even name the thread after him. Maybe shorten his name to just his initials. And we could just lounge around, pants-less, and talk about whatever. If only such a thing existed…

by ozzman99 on Sep 19, 2011 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

But this comment IS on topic of Moneyball - so I thought...it's OK!

Randy Jackson: "Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were young?"
Idol Contestant: [Nods]

by Berry Jo on Sep 19, 2011 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

woo!

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Sep 19, 2011 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

When do you get to Anaheim???

We are planning on going to a midnight screening, Thurs.

Randy Jackson: "Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were young?"
Idol Contestant: [Nods]

by Berry Jo on Sep 19, 2011 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

i get there friday afternoon, so i'm out.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Sep 19, 2011 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey! How are you, stm?

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Sep 19, 2011 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

what's up brother? all good here.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Sep 19, 2011 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not taking my pants off in public, for a bunch of people I don't know.

I think I’ll go into the lounge …

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Sep 19, 2011 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice post EN

A great read. Thanks for putting it together. I hope I enjoy the movie half as much when I (hopefully) go see it with the WhizKid next weekend.

Next: please explain how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?

by WhizDad on Sep 19, 2011 9:29 PM PDT reply actions  

By the way, if the movie's successful they'll want to make a sequel

And since the A’s haven’t provided much drama they’ll decide to base the sequel on your blog post. So, start thinking about who will play you in the movie.

I’m debating between Morgan Freeman and Steve Carell.

As for my role as the guy who more or less stumbled into AN, I am hoping Chevy Chase gets the part.

Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?

by WhizDad on Sep 19, 2011 9:33 PM PDT reply actions  

dude

if it’s between Easy Reader and the 40-Year Old Virgin, it’s Easy Reader all the way for me. Besides, how could I resist being played by a black guy, and a significantly older one at that?

"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto

by emperor nobody on Sep 20, 2011 2:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

When I was skinny people said I looked like Skeet Ulrich.

WHO JUST SO HAPPENED TO BE THE CRAZY KNIFE STABBY GUY FROM THE MOVIE SCREAM.

Coincidence?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 20, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I should clarify that I was thinking of mid-70's DeNiro.

Not just younger, but more “Taxi Driver” than “Meet the Fokkers.”

by ozzman99 on Sep 20, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Since I wanted to play him in Moneyball (I was in San Diego during filming),

Ray Durham could play my part in the cinematic classic “Athletic Nation”. Or (going for realism), me. It’s the part I was born to play, baby!

by player20 on Sep 21, 2011 6:27 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Moneyball 2

Featuring a rag-tag team of misfits who vault past the Mariners and avoid 4th place in the AL West.

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Sep 20, 2011 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

They wouldn't even have to change much of the pitch

Brad Pitt stars in the real-life tale of Major League Baseball general manager Billy Beane, who built up a rarely winning team despite a decreased budget thanks to his now-standard use of statistical data to calculate the most injured — and cheapest — players for his roster.

Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!

by UrgentMirth on Sep 20, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

MoneyTraining?

Beane’sstatistical quest to find a training staff that would not leave a scalpel inside the anus of the staff ace.

by Drone on Sep 20, 2011 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is no way there is a sequel

5 years of failure would not make a good movie.

Unless you call it FailBall

by Trainman on Sep 20, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

EN, fantastic post

Very well written, spot on, agree with it wholeheartedly. The magic of The Streak is what made me fall in love with my A’s again after a few years away from baseball, it truly was a remarkable time. I have fond memories of Billy Koch slamming the door and rally Miggy magic. Thanks for the refresher, can’t wait to see the movie on Friday

"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford

"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball

by darooster on Sep 20, 2011 1:23 AM PDT reply actions  

What hurt the A's most in "Moneyball"

Most teams were understanding sabermetrics, and were moving toward looking for new values - all of which were implicit in statistical analysis. As Billy Beane said at the time, eventually there will be no undervalued commodity because all the information will be available to everyone.

I think what really hurt the A’s was the arrogance expressed in the book. Beane and company are consistently goofing on other GMs, talking about how they’re ripping off other teams. Billy talks all the time about the joys of horse-trading, and reveling in the fact that he’s the smartest boy in the class.

At that point, who would want to play with him? Some schmo could come into the Front Office anywhere and quietly make trades for players in other organizations who’ll shine, and as long as the only people who recognize the rip-off are local fans and sportwriters, and national analysts who’ll say “so and so got lucky” , that GM can continue to trade with GMs he can take advantage of. Beane lost that because any time from then on that he’d be successful, some other GM would immediately be called to account for being “taken” by Billy Beane.

The book negated Beane’s real edge, his intelligence.

by richwol1 on Sep 20, 2011 10:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Random question - any info on casey beane?

We dont know much about her other than beane turning down the red sox job to stay closer. I believe there was one camera shot of her years ago behind the A’s dugout in anaheim. Went to pepperdine, now I believe at some college in the midwest which had led to some thinking beane might be interested in the cubs job. Must be weird to see her dad being portrayed by brad pitt lol.

by J.J. Miller on Sep 20, 2011 11:51 AM PDT reply actions  

Interesting to read other blogs' Moneyball-sponsored posts

Esp. Rev Halofan’s

When I got hired I told Mister Blez that I had read everything Bill James had ever published but I was covering the one team in baseball where I would bet my life not a soul in the front office or dugout had ever read a page of the greatest philosopher the sport had ever known. Representing the team here I was able to revel in division championships at the expense of those who would publish their math homework as baseball analysis, coining the phrase “Mister Sabermetric Spock” in the process.

Funny that in the vaunted days of the AN/HH rivalry, the vast majority over there were complete anti-Moneyballers. That doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Sep 20, 2011 1:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I guess people are really quick to recognize a winning formula....

And it really helps if you have the chips to back your moves. Was it just me, or does it seem as though the A’s are gaining “sympathy” traction in the media for a new park in SJ? In the Chron coverage on CSN, it seemed as though the hosts all recognized that the A’s deserve better than they’re getting based on their history.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Sep 20, 2011 3:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Good.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Sep 20, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm going to the game tonight

I’m in Oakland on business. Last game I went to Zito was still on team. Im excited, hope to see rookies play.

by gambler on Sep 20, 2011 5:18 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

have i already missed batting practice?

I have never made it in time for that since I was a kid

by gambler on Sep 20, 2011 5:25 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

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