The Case For Pursuing Jimmy Rollins
by Nico on Aug 11, 2011 5:30 PM PDT
Email
PrintI know this is more of an "off-season post" but let's face it -- many to most of us are looking ahead to 2012 with more interest than we can muster watching the dog days of August unfold.
First off, there are plenty of good reasons not to make Jimmy Rollins a primary target and so I am going to begin with a rebuttal. A "prebuttal" if you will. Will you?
Let's start with the two words that strike fear into anyone who contemplates shelling out significant money on a multi-year deal for an infielder in his 30s who relies on speed as part of his game: Chone Figgins. The last thing the A's need is to find themselves saddled with a Figgins-like disaster. Rollins will turn 33 on November 27th.
Rollins is also what the A's can't ever sign anyway: A high profile free agent position player -- this one at a premium position, no less, where many teams around both leagues will be looking to improve.
So now that I've talked you out of pursuing Rollins, and thoroughly convinced you that it's a bad idea the A's won't have the opportunity to fail at anyway, here's why I have my eye on Rollins as a possible off-season target...
The first thing to note is that the A's may have an opening with Rollins they don't often have with good position players who are looking as free agents. Rollins hails from Alameda, and grew up an A's fan. Given a competitive offer, Rollins might specifically like Oakland where most hitters will specifically shy away. So while the A's presumably will have, as usual, no shot at the "most coveted free agents" (Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder), in this weak free agent pool Rollins could represent the rare hybrid of a player who might actually consider coming to Oakland and a player who might actually provide the A's with a real upgrade.
Rollins also has a hitting profile that is less likely to suffer for playing home games at the Coliseum. He is a "singles/doubles all fields" switch hitter with a pretty good eye and occasional HR pop. In a lot of ways, his hitting style is similar to that of Jemile Weeks and we've seen that Weeks' style can play fine at home in contrast to the suppression that, for example, RH power hitters often experience.
Is Rollins showing signs of decline due to age? This is a matter of interpretation but I tend to think that at least as of now, Rollins still has the skills of a strong defensive SS and pretty dynamic hitter.
Rollins is having a solid offensive season (.267/.341/.401 with 13 HRs and 27 SBs in 33 tries) but it is well known that he plays half his games in a very good hitter's park. Here's an interesting note, though, about Rollins' 2011 season: his success is certainly not coming simply because Chase Field (er, Citizen's Bank Park) is a good place to hit. In fact, Rollins is hitting relatively poorly at home (.243/.333/.358, 6 HRs) and much better on the road (.290/.341/.441, 7 HRs).
Overall, if you browse his career stats, you'll see that Rollins is not the hitter he was at his peak in 2007, but following a down year in 2010 he has bounced back nicely and does not appear to be over the hill yet. Of course the question is, when will he be? In a SS, you'll probably see signs of decline first on defense as it is such a demanding defensive position.
Defensively, Rollins shows a possibly slight, or perhaps no real, decline in range factor (UZR/150s from 2008-11: 15.2, 5.0, 12.3, 6.0, meaning his averages from 2008-09, and 2010-11, are very comparable), and if there's a drop it's from great to solid.
Meanwhile, errors may not be the best measure of defensive prowess overall but they are certainly one good measure of unforced mistakes that hand opportunities to the other team. And Rollins doesn't make many errors at all. While I was typing this, Cliff Pennington made his 16th error of the season; he was charged with 25 errors last season. Here are Rollins' error totals since 2001, during which time he has averaged 148 games: 14, 14, 14, 9, 12, 11, 11, 7, 6, 6, and 5 so far this season.
My thinking is that if the A's were to give Rollins a 4-year deal (which might be needed to sign him), they would be getting someone who currently has above average range at SS with a very low error total, who can offer you a solid #2 hitter behind Weeks in the batting order. Going forward you would expect to see some decline in range, so you might settle for average range in the middle of the contract and perhaps even a move to 3B by the very end of the deal -- which, at the moment, looks valuable too, even if not ideal.
Remember that the A's made a real pursuit of Rafael Furcal on a 4-year deal when Furcal was 30 and coming off of a serious surgery (microdiscectomy in his back). I would characterize the risk with Rollins as being less, in that Rollins is healthy as well as historically durable (he has played in 137+ games 9 of his last 10 years, 154 or more in 8 of them), and his natural decline due to aging can probably be somewhat projected while it was unsure whether or how much Furcal would bounce back from back surgery.
Now I don't know what the A's will do with their 3 free agent OFers, but let's consider a scenario where the A's sign Josh Willingham to a 3-year deal and let Coco Crisp and David DeJesus walk. I love Crisp but his health scares me and I'm getting increasingly comfortable with Ryan Sweeney as a CFer, especially if the A's can find a platoon partner for him.
In fact, as unpopular as it would be with some on AN, I'd love the A's to reacquire Rajai Davis to platoon with Sweeney. Sweeney's career line against RHP is .303/.356/.410. Davis' career line against LHPs is .292/.351/.412. I wouldn't mind having a CF who could hit around .295/.350/.410 with decent defense.
If not Davis, perhaps a similar player who can hit LHPs well enough, and play CF well enough, to platoon with Sweeney. Heck, maybe Jermaine Mitchell could even fulfill that task. I also really wouldn't mind having Willingham's bat in the middle of the lineup, primarily as a DH, even if the A's had to pay more than you'd like for a DH in order to keep Willingham's bat in the lineup and his glove mostly on the bench.
I'll let others estimate what it would cost for the A's to secure Willingham on a 3-year deal and Rollins on a 4-year deal. If you let Crisp go, you subtract a $5.75M contract, and if you sign Rollins you have the flexibility to move Pennington to a team for whom Pennington would be an upgrade -- and there are teams worse off at SS than the A's are now.
And check out the lineup you wind up with for 2012 going forward:
Weeks - 2B
Rollins - SS
Allen - LF
Willingham - DH
Sweeney/"Davis" - CF
Taylor - RF
Barton - 1B
Sizemore - 3B
Suzuki - C
If Taylor busts, you can move Willingham to the OF and bring up Carter to DH, and if Barton busts, you can move Allen to 1B, so there are some safeguards in place, along with Grant Green and Michael Choice knocking at the door in the near future.
Meanwhile, you haven't dealt any of your core pitching and if you re-sign Harden the starting rotation is pretty solid (though granted not spectacular before Brett Anderson returns):
Gio Gonzalez
Trevor Cahill
Rich Harden
Brandon McCarthy
Tyson Ross/Josh Outman
and bullpen looks good, with Moscoso where he belongs in long relief:
Bailey
Balfour
De Los Santos
Devine
Breslow
Fuentes
Moscoso
I don't know that this is a team which would cause fans to forget about the 1927 Yankees, or even the 2011 Phillies. But if that were our team going into 2012, I'd be excited for the season and for the A's near future (especially 2013), and I think it's both plausible and within the A's budget. Your thoughts?
277 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I like it.
I think bringing a hometown guy back to the bay would also drum up some extra support for the team and possibly put more fans in the seats (in spite of what Mr. Wilson might think/say/spew).
My old account was lars.ON but I change it to match my Twitter handle.
Follow me on Twitter
Editor & Contributor at VanquishTheFoe.com
I have a hard time seeing Rollins leaving, or the Phillies letting him leave,
unless the offer was huge.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
the phillies are about to be crushed by the weight of the back end of their contracts
I think its reasonable to think they will be letting him walk
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
If not that, there's always a good chance
they’ll be crushed by the weight of the back end of Ryan Howard.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's true.
I wonder what their shortstop Plan B would be.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
PENNINGTON FOR BROWN!!!!!
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I understand the motivation behind Rollins.
But he’s a type A, which means sacrificing draft picks for a player who will be at his highest production when the A’s are generally not going to be competitive. This looks like a classic hold steady move, which isn’t to say I’m in favor of just tanking for 2 to 3 years, but just that collect mid round draft picks and finishing in 3rd or 4th in the AL West just doesn’t sound like a solid plan to me.
If we sign Rollins, then why not go for it and sign someone like Carpenter if his option isnt picked up, or Edwin Jackson, or any other of the pitchers available to help solidify the rotation while Anderson is out. Or even someone like Cuddyer? I dunno, i just feel that Rollins by himself only hurts the team, not helps it. Make other signings/trades to go with it i like it, because I think Rollins is a good player, but that lineup doesn’t make me feel that good at all.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
they are currently in 9th draft position
with a 6 game “lead” over the mets.
The last 15 teams have type A protection (they will lose a second rounder, I believe)
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
still losing a draft pick.
i accounted for the fact they have protection.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
it would simply be nice IF
next years team could help us forget about the ‘06, ’07, ’08, ’09, ’10 A’s
Is Braden going to be ready for next season?
"Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down"
-Rick Astley
no,
maybe never.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
We don't quite know that
He may be able to pitch early in 2012, or later in 2012, may not recover for 2012, may not ever recover.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I dont think early 2012 has even been considered a real option.
Unless ive missed something.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Santana just had a big setback, too, after the same kind of recovery.
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
That's what i was basing it off of.
Santana is a big question mark, some are concerned he’ll never come back.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
He thinks so.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Braden's the type of competitor that I wouldn't put it past him
However, I imagine he’ll lose a couple MPH on his fastball — which he can afford more than some pitchers can, but it’s still an issue.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
A 45 MPH fastball is going to be AWESOME.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Hey, as long as there's a good differential with the changeup
Which I trust he will throw 30 MPH.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
he can always try slow pitch
there was a pitcher for the giants in the 80’s who one year did an underhand first pitch (of the game) like softball. several times. had mostly strikes if i remember correctly. then again… my memory isn’t what it use to be
by heartstopper on Aug 11, 2011 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I think a "changeup, screwball, eephus" repertoire could work.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
sounds like something Rick Reuschel might have done...
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I really don't know if this is true.
He already only throws 88. What if he comes back and it’s 86? 85? 82? No matter how good the changeup or the fastball location…a major league hitter is going to hit the tar out of a low-80s fastball.
Duke did fine sitting at 85-86 MPH
I agree it’s a real problem. But I’d sooner see Braden try to succeed losing 2 MPH off his fastball than a power pitcher who relies on fastball velocity.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe.
I just really don’t know the answer to that. Does losing velocity hurt junkballers or power pitchers more? Gonna have to wait and see, I bet.
My sense is that it least affects guys who have pinpoint location
But your point is valid: It affects everyone. Just because you’re not a power pitcher doesn’t mean you’re indifferent to 2 MPH of fastball velocity.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
just ask barry zito
his fb last ml start was around 83-84 if i heard correctly during that game (just by chance while channel surfing- i don’t make a habit of watching giant games unless vs the a’s or if they are losing.)
by heartstopper on Aug 11, 2011 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Who arranged for the great Nestea ads???
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
by WhizDad on Aug 11, 2011 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
Why are they executing the girl on the right? What did she do?- elcroata
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
We somehow assume that pitchers coming back from injuries will only suffer in the area of velocity and not location
I am not sure that is always the case. If some tendons or muscles shorten due to the extensive recovery period or if the arm just “feels” different, I can see how they also might suffer on the “control” front.
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
by elcroata on Aug 11, 2011 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
great point.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Aug 11, 2011 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Except when talking about TJ surgery, where more and more pitchers are seemingly coming back better than ever in terms of both.
My take is that Braden might never come back but Anderson definitely will be back and be great at this time next year.
I think Rollins
ends up with the Giants if he doesn’t re-sign with Philly
He’s the type of overrated, old, name player that Sabean masturbates to…
Kiper+Fosse=Mute
that sounds right, I hope we can drive up the price/years
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I think it would be great to have him...
…with the local ties and all, but I don’t see it. He’s used to playing on the East Coast (less travel) in front of 40K a night, contending for a title. Free agents like that just shun playing in Oakland, they don’t want to play here period.
Also, please no more Barton @1st or Rajai platooning in CF. RJ isn’t the smartest base runner, isn’t a good outfielder, and would hate to see the CF position have a combined 2 HRs at the All-Star break. Would welcome back Willingham for sure, maybe even Matsui.
Get Them B4 They Get You!
if Barton
comes back from surgery able to drive the ball to recapture his “10 HR” power, he will be the best option
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
At least with Barton you'll get solid infield defense
And a trio of Allen, Willingham, Taylor would give you some power potential elsewhere.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Barton is not a solid 1st Baseman
At the time of his demotion he was either tied or leading AL 1st Basemen with 8 errors in 65 games.
Get Them B4 They Get You!
2 things
1- Even with the errors he was a net positive for the A’s by converting more balls hit in his area into outs
2- in 2010 he was the best fielding firstbaseperson in the league
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Yeah
You’re right. The A’s would be a much better team with Barton out there every day. They’ve really plummeted since his departure. The defense at 1st base has been horrendous lately; a real net negative and plain ole buzzkill.
Get Them B4 They Get You!
I am right, thanks for noticing
The defense at first base has been worse since his departure. Not much worse, but worse.
Conor Jackson has provided better offense than Barton did this year.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
carter tended to give truly horrendous
jackson hasn’t embarrassed himself
by heartstopper on Aug 11, 2011 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
The WhizKid completely disagrees with me but I don't understand why folks want to bring Barton back
I think we have got to get power from somewhere. If you have Sweeney/Davis hitting 5th??? that’s not going to do much to protect Willingham or motivate the fans.
I’m not advocating Carter (who may not last the winter) but Allen? Willingham? McCovey?
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
When your 1B and 3B is named Barton and Sizemore respectively
what is the point of adding an aging, declining player when the lineup still resembles a “10 games below .500” lineup? Without Rollins, we might be 15 games below .500, but do you really care to win those 5 extra games?
I say Beane really need to consider trading Cahill for hitting prospects during the offseason. It seems that hitters have figure Cahill out and are lighting him up.
if Cahill has been figured out
WHy would a rival GM trade for him?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
cahill hasn't been figured out
its his control that has been an issue. 66 BBs and counting. in 156IP. not an outlandish amount i admit but in games he has struggled it has been because of control and of course when you fall behind in the count the pitcher is more likely to groove one and the hitter is more likely to get a hit
by heartstopper on Aug 12, 2011 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I would be utterly shocked if the difference between Pennington and Rollins in 2012 ends up being 5 net games
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
is someone going to tell nico
that rollins isnt a good hitter??? he has a .329 OBP career! I have seen him play for last 4 years and I can tell you he is the exact hitter that people will hate here. Swings at first pitches all the time. is aging. with his “good” year right now his OPS is still only .742. That wont cut it if the reason for signing him is to improve the offence.
"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."
Psssst: He's a very good defensive SS.
Who’s on pace this year to steal 37 bases (and hit 18 HRs). OBP is a category, even a relatively important one; it’s not, however, the only one that matters.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, but 18 homers in Philly and other bandbox NL parks
is like, what, 9 in Oakland and other AL parks?
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions
He's hit more than half his HRs on the road.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No one told him that...because it's not true.
He’s a perfectly average hitter over his entire career, which is awesome for a shortstop. Not to mention that he’s already been worth 3.7 WAR this year alone.
What's your guess on what he'll command on the open market,
for years and dollars? I never have a keen sense of the market.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hmm.
I’m not the best at that kind of stuff either, but my first guess would be something like 3/50? Maybe more?
That much per year, given his age?
Maybe — I usually guess low.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's not THAT old.
32 this year. And he’s something like a 3+ WAR player, and the market is something like $5MM per WAR.
Right. He'll be 33 all of next season, etc.
I suppose the fact that so many teams are weak at SS might create quite the interest.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
One of the biggest problems might be that
among the teams who will be interested in a SS are teams with high payrolls, such as BOS and SF.
I’m figuring the A’s would have to offer more years to be competitive, but I don’t know what his best 4 year offer is likely to be. It might be another Beltre situation where in order to beat the best offer the A’s would have to make an offer I’d agree they shouldn’t make.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can't see him leaving Philly
He isn’t quite to the Phillies what Jeter is to the Yankees, but he’s damn close.
remind me what he was worth the last two years, when he was younger?
oh thats right, not much. per br 0.9 and 2.0. Oh thats right, hes injury prone recently. oh right, philly will resign him anyway. NEXT!
"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."
why take a gigantic risk on someone whos upside isnt very high
"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."
by jacobo2u on Aug 11, 2011 8:58 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
It's a lot of money to commit to a declining player.
I’d rather have the A’s go out and spend a big chunk of that money on Latin prospects before the Worldwide Draft gets instituted and ruins Latin America’s baseball development once and for all.
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
AJ Griffin had an interesting night pitching for Stockton:
6.0 IP, 9 hits, 7ER, 0 BB, 10 K. Apparently it was a slight problem that 5 of the 9 hits off of him were HRs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
OMG WHY ARE WE MOVING HIM SO SLOW HE SHOULD BE IN THE BIGS
"BA doesn't stand for Batting Average. It’s Brandon Allen, as in the percentage of a hitter’s worth compared to Brandon Allen. Ted Williams, at his best, was only 4/10th of the hitter Brandon Allen is today." - YonYonson
Why is he back in Stockton?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, I was wrong about that
DONT YOU FEEL AWESOME NOW?? OUR PROSPECTS SUCK, YAY LIFE IS GREAT BECAUSE YOU WERE RIGHT!!!!!!
sheesh….
I think people just prefer that the site isn't full of misinformation.
If you choose to take that personally you’re missing the point. I’d say its a good thing that the site is critical and self-regulating if it means AN is more educational when it comes to discussing prospects, stats, player-value etc.. Personally I prefer to be corrected if I post something wrong or misleading. Certainly people are free to have opinions, and without a little imagination AN would be lacking for content, but to that end its helpful to qualify opinions as what they are – opinions, not facts.
by Aufheben on Aug 12, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
Yep. Just your basic outing,
where you pretty much either strike each hitter out or give up a bomb.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Apparently BABIP was given the night off.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I wasn't suggesting the pitching line was good or bad.
Just very unusual.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think that's what he was trying to say
With all the K and HR, there were almost no balls in play, hence no need to calculate BABIP. At least that’s how I read it
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
but yes, your way makes much more sense. i apologize nico
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
A man can dream....
Instead of Jimmy Rollins, is there any way we could trade for Alex Gordon or Mike Moustakas? Normally I’d say we don’t have a shot at either, but the Royals don’t need both cause one blocks the other and Mike Moustakas has had back to back good seasons at AAA. Maybe we can package Tyson Ross+Chris Carter for Alex Gordon? The guy is still only 27. He is a power stick from the left side at 3B with good power. Maybe throw in PTBML. Idk, maybe I’m underestimating what the Royals would ask for, but just a thought.
You'd have a better chance if Ross had stayed healthy
I don’t think Carter is part of the conversation, because the Royals have a better version of Carter in Billy Butler. But I’d agree that Gordon is attainable, while I’d say Moustakas probably is not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I hadn't realized he was in LF now
That probably makes him harder to acquire. I still think the Royals have a need for a good, young, right handed starting pitcher, and I think a change of scenery might do Gordon some good (even though he is having a great year this year). If we throw in a great set up guy (who I believe are an overrated commodity) I’m not sure it would take much more. Ross looked pretty darn good when he was healthy. I am not as familiar with the A’s farm system has most on this site, but Ross+Balfour+good (but not great) mid-level prospect seems reasonable.
Possibly, but I'm not convinced the A's can afford to give up a pitcher
They’re pretty thin beyond the “core 6” (Gio, Cahill, McCarthy, Ross, Outman, and if you re-sign him, Harden).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I find it interesting consider Moscoso as part of our "core"
I understand he has been extremely lucky this year, but he has been been pretty consistent at keeping the A’s in games. He’ll never be an Ace, but as a 4/5 guy, that is all I feel like I can expect. Certainly not a world beater, but perhaps a serviceable 5th/spot guy. I guess I just think the difference between him and a guy like Ross or Outman wouldn’t be great enough to turn down an Alex Gordon. I think a lineup with Gordon in it everyday and Moscoso starting instead of Ross is still a net plus.
I think he's best suited to long relief/spot starting
The difference with him once through the order, and beyond, is pretty stark.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We have the rest of the year to find out.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Congratulations, Ziggy: You're in first place.
Dbacks, one out away from losing, got a game-tying 2-run HR from Goldschimdt, aka “the guy who made Brandon Allen expendable,” and now a walk-off 3-run bomb from Chris Young.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
pinch hit HR by Goldschmidt. it was crushed
2 out 2 strikes
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Somehow
I find it more likely that the Giants would pursue and sign Rollins.
They might.
I would certainly expect them to be in the discussions.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, then they could move Tejada back to 3B and let Sandoval push their wheelchairs back and forth.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Is Tejada still playable?
I figured he was about done.
by LoneStranger on Aug 12, 2011 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions
other than that he's awesome.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
Hey, love your perspective on thangs
If the A’s were to pursue one legit FA, who would you be targeting?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of our own FAs, I would only re-sign Willingham.
I would like to see an OF of Josh, Sweeney, and Taylor. The 3rd base class seems weak, which leaves us 1st base/DH. I like Prince if he would accept the DH role, with parttime play at 1st. ALLEN can rest, or play OF, during the games Prince becomes a Fielder.
i've never tried to rank them to be honest. i guess i like beer.- stm72
I'd probably just re-sign Willingham with the idea of trading him at the end of the season.
That at least provides some measure of stability to the offense while you guys figure out whether Allen, Taylor and Carter are going to be a part of the solution going forward. That’s got to be the goal of 2012. It should’ve been the goal of the second half of the 2011 season.
I like the idea of Jimmy Rollins if the middle of the order were a little more set or the core was more defined going forward. There’s too much up in the air. If Allen, Taylor or Carter can hit, though, I like the move. If not, I’d rather save the cash because it will be needed elsewhere.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
On a team with totally pathetic production from 1B & RF....we don't need a SS.
Moving forward I’m comfortable with Pennington for the next year or two, he’s a good hitter and I dont think he’s awful defensively. I do not think Rollins will handle the switch in parks/leagues from extreme hitter to extreme pitcher and don’t even think he will beat out Penny in terms of WAR over the next 3 years, or if he does it wont be by much, and he wont be worth the massive overpay we would need to do to get him.
Also, errors are hardly a good judge of defensive talent. In fact it shows Penny has better range as a lesser SS would just watch the ball go into LF, Penny gets to the ball and throws it away because he’s trying for a miracle out. As he gains experience, he will learn to just hold onto it rather than try throwing someone out and his errors will decrease.
Offensively I’d rather shoot for Prince, and make offers for Berkman and Beltran, surprisingly I think we should buy a good starting pitcher, the market seems to have a few available, or even trade Bailey and sign Papelbon. If the Yanks cut Swisher loose, sign him at all costs. As crazy as it sounds we should probably bring Chavez back as a 3B-if-Sizemore-flops/1B/DH, he’s proving he can still hit. Plus, it just feels wrong not having him here, Rosy can go back to AAAA.
SP-wise, any of the following would put a smile on my face: Buehrle, Edwin Jackson or Kuroda, with 1 year offers to Wang, Chris Young, D-Train & Harden. Sabathia would be nice but honestly never going to happen until he’s 40 or something and wants to play at home.
Oh also, OP did not say what happens to Penny if Rollins is signed.
He’s got more than a few years of team control and has established himself as an everyday SS, it just seems senseless to get rid of him for a 33 year old lifetime NL player who played in an extreme hitters park. Honestly do not see that turning out well.
I have to agree, though I'll concede I don't know much about Rollins
But signing and aging shortstop just feels dicey to me, especially for four years.
And, I do like the idea of platooning Sweeney with Davis in CF and letting Coco go. I’m even comfy with Sweeney more or less full time in CF. But I sure wouldn’t bat them 5th. 2nd perhaps or 7th.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Ugh, I do not want to see Raj Davis here again.
Would way rather see Coco or DDJ here than him. Davis is on his way out.
Rajai Davis vs. LHP this season: .291/.371/.468 (.839 OPS)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
why?
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Coco will probably be better than that platoon
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
that's fine.
but i dont think the argument was about coco vs sweevis.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
it should be
There’s no reason to think that Coco can’t be a 3ish WAR player next year at this rate.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Im fine with Coco.
We’ll see how much he’ll cost.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Except for being one of the worst shortstops in baseball, but yeah
he does play every day.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Aug 11, 2011 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's a massively wrong thing to say.
He’s definitely not one of the worst SS’s in baseball. He’s about as good as Jeter or Starlin Castro since opening day last year. He’s middle of the pack in a not-great talent pool. His approach at the plate by itself is worth having around. Dude knows his way around and eventually will have some very good seasons.
Here’s a bunch of way worse SS: Ryan Theriot, Orlando Cabrera, Miguel Tejada, Yuinensky Betancort, Ian Desmond, Jason Bartlett, Erick Aybar, Brendan Ryan….of course if you want to pass judgement off 2 bad months go ahead, Matsui was the worst hitter ever for 2 months but now he’s great, Matt Holliday was not one of the top 10 hitters in baseball for 2 months here too, but has been before and after. That 2 month sample scale will always burn you.
It's not a 2 month sample scale. It's his injury riddled minor league career complete with shitty defense.
It’s the fact that his wrc+ is 82.
His defense is bad. His defense in the minor leagues was bad. His track record is bad. His hitting is bad.
He had one good season in his career. Last year. THAT is the outlier, not this season.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Aug 12, 2011 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Two ways to look at this
You can examine his stats and come up with an analysis based solely on those stats, which yields a really wretched result that shows last year was an outlier.
Or, you can look at his game itself and see that what makes him a bad fielder are lapses in concentration that tend to occur at meaningful times in games. These lapses result in bad throws and bobbled easy plays. I’ve noticed over the years that the great young shortstops tend to eliminate such lapses and become consistent fielders. I think the jury is still out on Pennington but this year, but his play doesn’t bode well for the future: good fielders tend to become better, not worse, as they gain experience.
As a hitter, he’s very streaky. He tends to get good at-bats in the late innings, forcing pitchers to work harder. His bat isn’t good enough to sustain his work as a fielder, which is a problem.
My biggest concerns are that
the “unforced errors” on routine plays are just too frequent and he has still not figured out how to lay off a high fastball. I like Pennington, but ultimately think the A’s need an upgrade at SS.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thing is, there aren't a lot of upgrades available.
The talent pool at SS is not very deep or good. If you want an upgrade shoot for Alexis Ramirez of the White Sox, he’s very under-rated.
But I’d rather try and get guys who can OPS around 900 to play at 1B and RF instead of cutting Penny loose without giving him much of a chance. Penny passes the eye test at least, we can’t say that about Suzuki. C is another really lame talent pool right now….I just dont see why you would try and upgrade those positions when its much easier to upgrade RF and 1B.
Yes, and even including the streaks he's been a terrible hitter this year.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Terrible is just too harsh a word.
He eats a ton of pitches. He only had a bad April and June.
Also if Penny is terrible, what is Suzuki?
No, an 80 wrc+ is terrible.
and it’s got nothing to do with Suzuki. It’s possible for more than one hitter to be terrible.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
also terrible
but he’s a catcher so he doesn’t look as bad on balance
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
And a SS does?
Are you guys aware that there’s like, 2 good SS’s in baseball right now, and theyre both constantly injured? Tulo+Reyes are the best going and have bigtime injury reports. The talent pool is nowhere near what you think it is, Penny might not have the best numbers but he’s better than a lot of SS’s. Plus that 82 wRC+ is rising and is because he did stink for 2 months, but do you think Steven Drew sucks too because he his is 89?
You are being way too harsh on him. Allllll we are ssayyyying is give Penny another chance. We gave Crosby like 100 of them, no idea why everyone is so hell bent on getting rid of a guy with a great ceiling like Penny.
Because giving Crosby lots of chances worked out so well.
Snark aside, I think the point is that, if there’s an opportunity for an upgrade, try to pursue it – Rollins might be an opportunity (although, I’m not particularly convinced of it). If there’s not an opportunity, we’ll stick with Pennington.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
You realize Pennington is the third worst SS in baseball this year?
It doesn’t matter if all of the rest of the shortstops in the league suck as well, we still have one of the worst ones.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
How is he the 3rd worst?
Also, can you let the year finish before making these declarations? Youre setting yourself up for a fall when you try to judge based on small samples. Penny is getting murdered on UZR this year and was great last year, when he had a great defensive 1B in Barton. This year he doesnt have that. Get a good defensive 1B in there and it makes his numbers look better (yeah, I changed my opinion on 1B defense after seeing this specific example).
According to fangraphs, there are 55 players who have had over 100 PA’s while playing SS. Pennington ranks 33 and will most likely crack the top 25 when all is said and done.
Here’s the list I’m looking at.
He’s not having the greatest year, but I think he deserves another shot. I love watching him hit, he eats so many pitches, which is valuable in itself but not very stats-based. I mean I don’t like Rollins as an option, I’d rather go after the Ramirez from the White Sox, who I’ve been a fan of for a while and is really unheralded and underrated, and they said theyre willing to trade anyone on their team.
Narrow the list down to qualified SS
And he’s the third worst (out of 23), which is reasonable to do, since WAR is a counting stat.
Of those 23, he ranks:
18th in Batting RAR
19th in Baserunning RAR
20th in Fielding RAR
Not good.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Career slash lines (both in good hitters' parks):
Alexei Ramirez: .279/.323/.425 (.748 OPS)
Jimmy Rollins: .272/.329/.433 (.762 OPS)
Just FYI. They’re virtually the exact same offensive player in terms of slash line stats (the main actual difference between them being that Rollins steals a lot of bases).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
right, and Ramirez will be a hell of a lot cheaper.
by Billy Frijoles on Aug 12, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
In dollars, yes.
I wouldn’t wait for CWS to give Ramirez away.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Do we have anyone who resembles Wilson Betemit
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
God I hope not. ;-)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
we could use him to get Ramirez.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Well to clarify I think Rollins is a bad idea
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
His bat has been as good in innings 1-3 as 7-9. It's the middle innings when he sucks
IP 1-3 .273/.335/.370
IP 4-6 .238/.307/.341
IP 7-9 .262/.330/.383
That’s career numbers. So far this season, the pattern is the same, but the results not so dramatically different. Regardless, those aren’t great numbers for the defense we’re getting out of him. Sometimes, I wish he’d substitute a little speed for more accuracy on his throws.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Clearly we should pinch hit for him in the middle innings,
and then put him back in.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That was my initial thought.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
So he does well the first time against pitchers, then they adjust against him.
Then they leave the game and the cycle starts over again.
Its insane to me that people are throwing around the term “terrible” when talking about him, are we watching the same player? His approach at the plate is one of the better ones on the team, he eats a TON of pitches….I think not having Barton at 1B hurt him this year too, but seriously, was Bobby Crosby that long ago? That’s what an awful SS looks like, not Pennington.
That approach doesn't seem to translate well to results, though.
Has he been hitting well the last 4 weeks, sure. But overall, he has not . His BB rate is down compared to his career, as is XBH% and just about anything else. His baserunning has been a negative, as has his fielding. What’s to like, other than maybe getting to the bullpen a batter or two earlier.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
His baserunning is really where he lost a ton of value this year.
Can’t explain why or how you go from being 29-5 to 8-9 in steals in a year. I’m thinking its just a blip.
I'm thinking he either lost a step
or his approach is f’ed up and he’s doing a really good job of signalling when he’s going. I have no evidence of this, as I mostly listen to games, but, yeah, something is wrong there.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I tend to think Geren called a lot more running last year with Coco, Rajai, and Penny
Melvin seems to be okay with Coco going at will, but not anyone else.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Splits
Under Melvin: 3 SB, 4 CS
Under Geren: 5 SB, 5 CS
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Still doesn't explain lack of success when he does run.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
That's a really weird statistic.
Start the game off with a bang, then clutch if we need him to.
I would guess it's pure "statistical noise"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
His Hitting Isn't That Bad
It has deteriorated since the mid-2000’s, but he does have more power and experience then Penny. Plus, he has good speed. He’s not as good as he was in seasons like 2006, but can still provide production. The question is, whether he can provide enough production or the type of production that the A’s need.
"Oh also, OP did not say what happens to Penny if Rollins is signed."
Actually I did.
BTW, Buehrle has talked about possibly retiring after this year and Kuroda is expected to return to Japan.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Just a general observation if someone is interested in how metrics work
UZR is not synonymous with “range”, it is synonymous with “defensive prowess” . Now, it may or may not be a good way to do it, and many smart people have disagreed on how accurate it is. But it’s premise is to consider all of the aspects of playing defense and come up with a number that shows how good a defensive player is, having taken everything in account. Errors are a definite part of that evaluation – it was a batted ball on which an out was not recorded – so they are not really an additional proxy to determine a player’s defensive value.
I don’t want to start another “HR are already accounted for in wOBA” debate, and everyone should feel about errors and UZR the way they want to. But perhaps some people were led to an impression that these are two separate measures and I wanted to clarify it for them.
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
by elcroata on Aug 11, 2011 11:56 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I actually dont like UZR because it says it needs 3 years of data to be accurate
But that 3 year average isnt a rolling number, they just take it single season by single season, which goes against itself when using it to determine WAR. UZR should be accumulated differently when being calculated, it creates false value when taken on a year by year basis.
But it is a very good measure anyway, plus DWS never really took off and everyone’s lazy when quoting WAR (myself especially) so we blindly accept it.
How is it WAR false?
isn’t WAR just a snapshot of what did happen?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Yes
People often confuse accuracy with “true level of talent”. When a batter goes 1 for 4 in the first game of the season, he has a batting average of .250. That’s accurate, however not a good indicator of the true level of talent.
Stay tuned for an FP coming up in a couple of hours…
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Exactly
To take a simpler stat, I remember in 2004, Zito lost his first start even though he only gave up two runs. He said that he felt he pitched well (true), but when people looked at his record they’d just see 0-1, and start complaining. Stats can lie.
by Jason James on Aug 12, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
But a win isn't even a specific event that took place
At bats are events, as are hits. “Leaving the game having pitched at least the first 5 innings with a lead that your team doesn’t relinquish” isn’t an on-the-field event — it’s more of an evaluation/compilation stat, and not a very useful one.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Which Is Why W-L Records Are Way Overrated
There are numerous factors that a pitcher can’t control, e.g. run support.
by Jason James on Aug 12, 2011 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, stats can't lie. People can.
How we interpret stats determine their value in a discussion. Stats do the one thing they are designed to do; provide the results of either a formula or basic math. How we use those numbers is what creates truth and lies.
Q: Who is playing you in the movie about the ESPN book? I think it should be Adam Sandler — you both peaked 12 years ago.
— Timmy, Winchester, MA
- Simmons Mailbag, 8/5/11
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 12, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
That makes two of us.
;-)
Q: Who is playing you in the movie about the ESPN book? I think it should be Adam Sandler — you both peaked 12 years ago.
— Timmy, Winchester, MA
- Simmons Mailbag, 8/5/11
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 12, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Pam will be jealous
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, stats can lie
Like the one that says its condoms are 99% effective? Yeah, right. Wait, do you have to take it out of the package?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Aug 12, 2011 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah
Good point. I actually did not think of that, as that is another way to look at things. I mean, it’s really about how you interpret stats. But stats can lie when you try to evaluate talent using them.
Even aside from the question of
what actually happened vs “true level of talent”, there are reasons to question the reliability of WAR. The hitting part is accurate, and so is the TTO part of pitcher WAR. But a hitter’s WAR also includes a defensive component, which is based on defensive data that is subjectively and inconsistently collected. One of the two measures of pitcher’s WAR also includes a component using that defensive data.
Another completely different reason to call WAR “false” might be that while it accurately measures what it’s formula dictates, that formula fails to accurately reflect the name of the stat, ie, “wins above replacement”.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Ultimately,
There are reasons to question the capability and reliability of any stat. Stats can lie, especially in baseball and other sports. No matter how accurate we try to be, there will always be some sort of problem.
by Jason James on Aug 12, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
The second part I agree with
but am confident in the the calculations.
However, I disagree with the first part. You are correct that the data is collected by humans that subjectively identify places where balls go. Further they have no speed data on the batted ball and no distance traveled by the fielder, But I don’t think that is substantially different than the official scorer decisions on whether a ball was a hit or error.
The defensive numbers do tell us what did happen.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Well, now that you mention it,
I think the official scorer decisions on whether a ball was a hit or an error is just as bad.
I sometimes wonder if hitting data would be better if all errors were taken out. Same idea as DIPS. Has anyone ever done the math? Like, if you calculate hitting stats the traditional way and also calculate them purely by result regardless of error, would the latter have more predictive value than the former?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
good question
Now that I think about it, we can’t rely on any of the data. I guess we should go back to selling jeans.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
What sort of voice did UZR have?
The 3 year thing is an invention as far as i can tell. I don’t think its even close to being good.
Good point, thanks
If I implied “UZR” and “range” were one and the same, that’s “my bad”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Interesting point.
Similarly, I think its misleading when people say “FIP doesn’t measure balls in play.” The divisor in FIP is Innings Pitched, so that a pitcher who retires the side in order on three ground outs will improve his FIP, although not as much as if he’d mixed in a few K’s.
A pitcher who gives up a 5-run inning,
all on balls in play with no homers, walks, or strikeouts would improve his FIP by exactly the same amount, right?
Also, I think it depends on the FIP. The formula is
(13*HR + 3*BB – 2*K) / IP + C
where C is a scaling constant. An all-BABIP inning will bring the FIP closer to -C. So if your FIP is lower than C to begin with, it would increase it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
The C is added to the quotient, as it is described in this
THT glossary. The C is a constant which scales to ERA. If it were part of the divisor pitchers would be putting up FIPs roughly between 0.5 and 1.5. You can plug it in for someone and see. Lets do Cahill:
(13*14 + 3*(66+4-0) – 114*2)/153.1 = 1.07.
Then you add in the C constant (approximately 3 in this case) to get Cahill’s FIP of 4.07
With regard to your 5-run inning, if your pitcher is a GB-type he’s having horrible BABIP which should improve over time to match his FIP. If he’s an AO type he’ll eventually start giving up gopher-balls so that at some point, if not in this particular outing, his FIP will move toward his ERA. Also, a pitcher giving up 5 run innings isn’t going to last long, and if he comes back out next time and is giving up walks and HRs it is going to show up moreso for a low-IP pitcher than for someone who routinely goes deep into games.
I’m not trying to apologize for FIP – it has its shortcomings – but merely point out that it has a balls-in-play component. In fact balls in play are just as important to FIP as they are to ERA (which also uses an IP divisor), no more, no less. Its the dividend that is the difference between the two.
Isn't Johari Rollins from the Philly area?
I love the idea of bringing back the local boy, but my feeling is that in matters like these the wife’s family’s hometown matters more than the husband’s.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Depends on how well she gets along with the in-laws...
Don’t know if they have kids, but having your support circle nearby could be pretty important when your husband is away much of hte year.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Aug 12, 2011 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
They were married in 2010,
though I think they had been together long before that.
No kids yet that I’m aware of, but if any are coming you’d guess it’s soon.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I Think Whether The A's Try To Acquire Rollins Will Rely On Whether They Keep Coco Or Not
Having both of them on the team next year won’t work, because essentially it would give us three leadoff men (Weeks, Rollins, Crisp), none of whom can provide the power that this team needs so badly.
I have heard that Billy is quite fond of Pennington, so I don’t think he’d give his job to someone else unless absolutely necessary, as was the case with Barton. Once Billy commits himself to a guy, then it takes a lot for him to get rid of the player, as was the case with Jeremy Giambi.
If we do sign Rollins, then it would be best if he went back to the form he had in 2006 and 2007, where he hit 20-30 homeruns, drove in 80-90 runs, all while stealing over 30 bags. Unfortunately, that may not be the case as in recent years, his BA, power, and RBI have all deteriorated, and he hasn’t been stealing quite as many bases.
Mildly crazy idea
I wonder if Rollins would be amenable to trying out in CF? Considering the dearth of other options, and his relative speed, I wonder if we could BJ Upton him into CF.
Sweeney/Davis in CF could be a black hole. I’d rather re-sign Coco than see that everyday.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
I think that's more than mildly crazy, cuppingmaster
He’s a pretty good defensive SS, and not that great a hitter. In fact, Pennington in 2010 and 2011 was pretty similar offensively to Rollins in 2009 and 2010.
SS’s get moved to CF when they can hit and can’t play the infield (like Upton or Yount; also why people considered this with Jeter). Rollins is the opposite.
I’m not really enthusiastic about Rollins overall. I think we’d be overpaying for reputation.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Which might cause him to be more expensive than I thought
In which case, I’m against it. I don’t mind overpaying a little for the right guy, but mind overpaying a lot for the “right-ish” guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not totally against it, but it might be a 4 year/40M scenario
SS is the most obvious upgrade path in 2012, along with a backend starter. Coco is the obvious answer in CF; the thought of “Rajai routes” gives me nightmares.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions
The question, then, is would you go for 4/48 if that's what it took?
How about 4/56? And so on.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hmmm... maybe I'd rather do 3/35 with a club option for another year.
A 37-year old Rollins is not going to be a pretty sight. Max money of $48 with the option year.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
If it makes a difference, he'll be 33, 34, 35, 36
the next four seasons.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ah, read that wrong
Still, I think I’d offer 3 years first with more money.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
id definitely do a deal he takes 48 dollars in his last year.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Oh? I thought I saw a couple poles posting.
by LoneStranger on Aug 12, 2011 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
No, he's croatian
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
If Coco goes on the DL,
and Brandon Allen isn’t called up, I’ll probably defame a chipmunk.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Alvin & The Chipmunks version of Funkytown is awesome.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I hope this team gets absolutely gutted over the offseason.
Willingham and Crisp gone as Free Agents…
DDJ gone…
Jackson gone…
Suzuki and Powell gone…
Fuentes, Balfour, Wuertz, and Breslow gone…
Cahill gone…
I don’t particularly care who replaces them, either, as long as they’re young. I’m down for throwing a bunch of AAAA guys out there and seeing who sticks.
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't see how that could be any worse than 2011
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 12, 2011 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd have rather sucked next year than this one, considering the 2012 draft class does not appear to be very good
That said, the team’s post ASG play gives me a little glimmer of hope and makes me think that a complete overhaul may not be necessary.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
You don't see how we could be worse without Cahill and Balfour,
replacing them on the roster with Godfrey and Magnuson?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That Is True
After seeing Thor and Godfrey, I would stick with Cahill and Balfour.
Though, what’s actually wrong with Grant Balfour?
by Jason James on Aug 12, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Presumably we get something back for these guys, no?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 12, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish there was a dislike button on this comment.
Really? At least this team has been interesting to watch. A bunch of minor leaguers hacking and giving up 5-6 runs/game would be really horrible.
by Billy Frijoles on Aug 12, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
This team is interesting?
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 13, 2011 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Jimmy Rollins would be nice and all, but
WHY IS CONOR JACKSON STILL ON THE TEAM?
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Coco to the DL, Allen up, Allen to 1B, plz
kthxbai.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
and play allen every day. righties, lefties, loogy, closer. every farking day.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Interesting news
@jonmorosi
Jon Morosi
#Athletics name Phil Garner as special advisor. #Brewers #Tigers #Astros
6 minutes ago via txt
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
If I'm Melvin, I might be feeling a little heat
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Ya Think He'll Get the Job?
He’s had a losing record, but the A’s have been playing much better under him. Example: the road trip that just ended. Under Bobo, that sweep in Seattle would have resulted in disaster.
by Jason James on Aug 12, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Could be related to the minors
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
yeah, perhaps
Stiglich has further clarified that he’s a special advisor to Beane himself
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Yay good ol boys club
Hey, dude I need some cash. Hire me as a “special advisor”
I imagine that’s how Shooty Babbit manages to be a scout for the Mets while doing TV spots for the A’s.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
It seems more than a coincidence that Garner himself was an infielder
And he’s hired as a special advisor when infield defense is our most glaring run prevention problem. Besides, what do we care if Garner makes $200K a year if it only saves a few runs over the remainder of the year? Seems like a good investment to me.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess I don't see how a special advisor to the GM will help more than a better infield coach
or stuff like not making guys learn third base in the bigs, or not playing Conor Jackson.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
I wouldn't be surprised if we find that Garner is next year's 3B coach and infield coach
And this is basically a try out without disrupting the players’ routines with Gallego.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, this is my gues
Particularly since the reports say he’s going to be in uniform in the dugout.
by longtimeasfan on Aug 12, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps it's Gags who should be feeling the heat
Especially after his “I don’t know!!!!!” with Coco rounding 3B the other day.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah, the more I think about it, this may be Gallego's umbrella pull off the stage
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
"Mike, I'm sorry, but there's room for only one diminutive, former-A's 2nd baseman on the coaching staff..."
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
slusser also tweeted that Garner is a former coach for Melvin
So, it’s a potential sign that Melvin is returning
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd be shocked if he didn't
Seems like the players have really responded to him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
scratch that and reverse it.
Melvin was a coach under Garner, as I read it.
by LoneStranger on Aug 12, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
"My advise bob, don't play conor"
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Special Advisor on Whiskers
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Don't mind but...
I think signing Rollins is a great idea, but not a ridiculous contract. If anything it should be front loaded so as he ages his salary decreases. Also, we shouldn’t put all our eggs in one basket. It seems like we aren’t having that much money in the off-season after we re-sign and go through arb with a lot of our players. I would be happy to take on Rollins only if that left us enough money to contribute to another impact offensive player who we know will still be good in 2-3 years from now. Preferably a 1B or 3B.
I like Sweeney and Crisp in the OF. Crisp won’t be too expensive because he is injury prone. We should let Willingham walk and take the draft picks. Then our 3rd OF can be Jackson, Taylor, Allen. We have lot’s of choices. Our OF shouldn’t be the issue this off-season. We need to focus on our IF.
Front-loaded vs back-loaded
If you’re willing to pay a certain amount of money for a certain amount of years what year you pay it in makes little difference for value. Early money is more valuable than late money, due to interest and all, but both team and player (or player’s agent) will negotiate adjusting for that. Otherwise, it’s just managing cash flow.
If, for example, you’re willing to pay a guy $40 million for four years, it doesn’t really matter if $30m are paid during his two good years and $10m are paid during his two bad years, or vice versa. It works out the same.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It might be of importance from the revenue-sharing perspective
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
No, it's not.
The revenue sharing rules specifically require that all contracts be treated as evenly split across the life of the contract (including signing bonuses). They do that precisely so that the rich teams can’t play games by front-loading and back-loading their contracts strategically to avoid luxury tax.
This, incidentally is the main cause of discrepancies between figures for total team payroll from different sources. Some sources give the figure which the team reports for revenue sharing (which is public), while others calculate the team payroll by adding up all the individuals for the year. The two can be significantly different.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Interesting
Didn’t know that
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
About a year ago, when I had some free time,
I sat down and read through the entire CBA. About 90% of it is dreadfully boring and I just passed through it in a daze, but I did pick up a few things that aren’t often discussed in the press. That was one of them.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Nice
Well then if it doesn’t matter for payroll purposes each year, then we should definitely front load it. That way it seems more valuable to Rollins like you said. So maybe we could get him for 4 yrs/32mil and he’ll be enticed if we say 12mil/yr for first 2 years then 4 mil/yr for last 2 years. Of course those numbers can be adjusted. But you get the point.
It could very well help/hurt trade value
And of course, there’s inflation.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I like the Rollins idea, Nico.
I am preparing for some ridicule here, but I think what this team as currently constituted is really missing and has missed all year are players that demand success. The change from Geren to Melvin helped a little in the culture department, but I think the players might not take their immediate queues all the time from the coaches, but might often look to other players for that kick in the pants…especially the younger ones. I think Rollins would be an awesome mentor in this department, especially for dudes like Weeks, Taylor, Carter and Allen…young African-Americans that could be serious bad-asses and can grow together over the next few years with a little sustained success and leadership.
I think Swisher could obviously really help in this department as well, either via trade or free agency if Yanks decline his option. Plus, both Rollins and Swisher, I tend to believe, are pretty good players to boot who will either replace inferior players or will at least maintain overall levels of performance. I think a returning Braden could do the same for the pitching staff.
In my perfect world, I’d probably like to see a Spring 2012 A’s team that looks like this:
1. Weeks 2B
2. Crisp CF – resigned
3. Rollins – SS
4. Willingham DH – resigned
5. Swisher RF
6. Allen 1B
7. Taylor LF
8. Sizemore 3B
9. Suzuki C
1. Cahill
2. Gio
3. Harden
4. Braden
5. McCarthy
1. Bailey
2. Balfour
3. FDLS
4. Devine
5. Moscosco
6. Fuentes
7. Outman – his historical stats against lefties are pretty good
I’m too lazy to check to see how much this roster would cost, but I think it would provide an improvement from what we’ve seen this year…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
Me likey
However, like you, not sure how much this is gonna cost or if J-Roll really wants to be on the A’s. Figure he’d rather go to the Giants if he wants to be in the Bay Area. They need a SS badly plus they are a good team. As bad as our offense is, I’m ok with just going all in on a defensive beast mode SS. I know trading for one will be tough but we have pitching prospects that will entice. I just say if the kid hits like Craig Counsell, bat him 9th as long as he is a shark in the field. We gotta improve that infield defense. Weeks getting more PT and getting older will help. Same with Sizemore. Adding a beast a SS would be awesome. J Roll is nice but waning. Call me delusional but I think if we just improve that infield defense, our pitchers can stay healthy (big if of course) and we just add some pop like B Allen, I think we’ll be in the race until late August at least. It’s always gonna be tough with the wildcard always going to the Yanks or Sox and being in a division with the Rangers and Angels to. The Rangers are the scarier ones. They may just win the World Series this year if they get some good starting pitching in the playoffs. Plus, I’m just scared Jemile has a sophomore slump. But Suzuki can’t be as terrible though right?
I’m thinking we’ll have to dump Fuentes. He costs a pretty penny. I’m pretty sure we could call someone up or sign someone who will be somewhat close to Fuentes output for much cheaper. Crunch the numbers Billy boy!
"The Most Interesting Man in the World is Brandon Allen" - the World
"Brandon Allen is what I'm talking about" - Willis
by jemilesathletics on Aug 12, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
That team would cost around 80M
If you pinch your pennies you might be able to get that for 75 (Which is what Lew Wolff says we’ll probably spend next year. Can’t remember where I saw that.) Here’s my projection for next year’s salaries with no FA additions.
John 3:16
"If they want to pay me like Mike Gallego, I’ll play like Gallego." - Rickey Henderson
if it's true that that roster would cost 75-80, then it will cost even more in subsequent years when Cahill, Anderson, and Suzuki all get raises
Plus arbitration for Gio, Bailey, etc. The A’s just can’t sign big contracts that extend into their young players’ expensive years without letting some people go. I don’t like the idea.
Rollins yes / Barton No
Rollins will probably price himself out of contention for a spot with the A’s. Somebody will overpay for the steep drop-off you’d expect 34 to 38 year olds to experience in that phase. I would have liked to Rasmus, Maybin, or one of the other younger names that were dangled or traded brought in. Anyway, if you are going to think big – then go all the way and offer Fielder what it will take. He hits some of the longest bombs in the game and I think he could hold his numbers even playing 82 in Oaktown. Barton – bleh – I think he has burnt his return ticket to the A’s. The grumbling about the medical staff and Billys subsequent aquisitions certainly point that way. He could probably net a prospect so add him to Fuentes and get er done.
Baja been here
Overpaying on an aging shortstop?
… em no thanks.
Pretty funny...
Why would Jimmy Rollins, who has spent his entire career with a team that’s essentially the Yankees of the National League, featuring the best starting staff in baseball and currently with the best record in baseball, and a chance to go to the World Series every year for the rest of his career - why would he choose to abandon that for a team that hasn’t had a winning record in five years, that plays to a three-quarter empty stadium most of the time, that plays in freezing weather half the time, that has a stadium which will depress his final career numbers? All for a little extra cash for a guy who already has earned over $50 million in his time as a major league ballplayer?
And from Philadelphia’s perspective, unless they have another star shortstop ready to take his place, why would they lowball Jimmy Rollins in the off-season?
They have like $17M in salary increases already on the books
And that’s without re-signing the guys they have currently. Factor in the high likelihood that they’re going to sign Hunter Pence long-term, you’re looking at a team pushing $200M.
From Rollins’ perspective, he’d instantly be “the man” of the position players. That’s probably alluring to some extent. Plus, if the A’s match the Phillies’ offer, that may put him over the edge.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Aug 12, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
But I'll ask again...
Unless he was lowballed by not only the Phillies but by other playoff teams seeking shortstop help (such as the Red Sox, who don’t seem fully comfortable with Lowrie; or the Giants, who have nobody waiting in the wings), why would he come to a mediocre team playing in a crappy ballpark in front of a handful of fans?
I bet the giants make a big push for him after they fail to make the playoffs
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
You can say that about any decent FA
I really don’t think the A’s make a single significant FA signing (not counting under-the-radar guys who succeed) until they move to SJ.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 13, 2011 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed with this.
You could honestly write the same thing about Sabathia if youre playing up the local boy factor, which seems to be most of the basis of this article. I mean, say Rollins wasn’t from Oakland, would this be written? Why him and not Reyes? Why would a player come here over a team like the Giants, who need a SS more than we do?
I’d rather we try and get a more feasible local boy in Lars Anderson.
Phillies sign Jack Cust.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
september roster expansion. jack’s coming out of this with a WS appearance. and i don’t make a lot of predictions.
by AV on Aug 12, 2011 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope you're right
Both because I like Cust, and because that means the Giants won’t be there.
by Glorious Mundy on Aug 12, 2011 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No, they play at Chase Field.
Citizen’s Bank Utley plays second base.
"It's decent.
It’s twisty, which I love."- lynnzgal
by Gaijin_Suketto on Aug 12, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Oops, heh heh...
Fixed.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
First of all, we need to get Allen, Taylor, and Carter up here already
Bringing in Rollins is a nice idea in a way, but it won’t matter if we have Jackson and DeJesus instead of Allen and Taylor.
Can somebody give me an estimate of how much money the A's will have freed up?
I know we’ve been trying to figure this out and can’t come up with a definite number, but an estimate would be great. After all salary increases, lets say we don’t sign anybody on our team or offer arb to anybody. Assume we have the exact same budget as this year. I want to know as of the last day of the season how much money we will have to sign our own players and FAs.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Athletics Nation
Related FanShots on Athletics Nation
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Barry Bonds thinks it will be ‘very sad’ if he doesn’t get into the Hall on his first try
- Chris Johnson’s glove webbing had a Spidey sense at Coors Field — for one play, at least
- Jonathan Lucroy breaks hand after suitcase falls during search for sock
- The Juice: Long Adam Dunn homer punctuates Chris Sale’s 15 Ks, Mark Trumbo goes deep after Jered Weaver goes down for Angels
- Leyland begs media to make umpires ‘accountable’ for bad calls (VIDEO)
