Undependable Offense Day: Pineda & 'Pen Dominate A's Invisible Attack as M's Win 2-1
by emperor nobody on Jul 4, 2011 3:46 PM PDT
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You mean I get to face these guys on the holiday? Why, that's almost like a day off!
A moment of silence, please, for the Oakland Athletics' offense.
Well, at least it went fast, there is that. In a game about as exciting as the dream I had the other night about waiting in line at the credit union, the A's managed a grand total of 3 hits in falling to Seattle. Two of those hits accounted for the A's lone run in this one, courtesy of a two-out 2nd inning rally in which Hideki Matsui singled, took second on a walk to Chris Carter, and scored on a hit by Kurt Suzuki. Outside of another single late in the game by Zuk, that was it. The M's were by no means all over Brandon McCarthy -- he surrendered a grand total of 4 hits (a HR from Josh Bard and a Justin Smoak double accounted for the 2 runs) whilst striking out 5 in his perfectly serviceable 6.2 IP in returning from the DL today. But 3 singles doesn't win you too many games these days, I'm afraid... especially off a budding ace like Michael Pineda, who solidified his case as a replacement All-Star for the festivities in AZ a week from tomorrow.
There isn't much else to say... baseball is a game where most of the excitement comes from the bat meeting the ball and the A's (or the M's for that matter) just don't do a whole helluva lot of that even on their best day. Brandon League -- who had his 20th straight shutdown appearance with no runz scoring off him -- worked the 9th for the save -- avoiding the disaster of a dropped third strike to Chris Carter when his catcher threw CC out at first by a step after losing track of the ball -- and that was all she wrote for today, I'm afraid. Oh, yeah... and it doesn't get much better tomorrow night with King Felix out there on the mound for the opposition, so unless the A's can replace their lineup with the 1929 Philadelphia Athletics overnight, it might be another long (or painfully short) night.
Double X, pick up the white courtesy telephone, please.
All right, enjoy your Fourth and tune in tomorrow for another try... Danmerqury is here at 7pm with all the threads you can eat as the King takes on the Baby-Faced Assassin!
Current Series
Mariners lead the series 1-0
| Mon 07/04 | 1 - 2 loss | |
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Seattle Mariners Tuesday, Jul 5, 2011, 7:05 PM PDT Felix Hernandez vs Trevor Cahill Mostly clear. Winds blowing out to center field at 5-10 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 75. |
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| Wed 07/06 | 12:35 PM PDT | |
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This. Offense.
I would dance and be merry, life would be a ding-a-derry, if Bob Geren had a brain.
by Boonee on Jul 4, 2011 3:58 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
that AB should cost Carter, he needs to be benched
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
They haven't benched Suzuki, Jackson or any other vets for ending games with similar ABs this year, so no.
Business man by day, fearless couch guardian by night.
Or even just having bad ABs in general
No, that was not a good one by Carter. In fact, it was awful after taking two fastballs for strikes then chasing the splitter. No question about it.
But let’s not act like him striking out was why they lost. I’m glad Melvin let him hit there because he needs those chances and he needs to learn from them when he fails like he did today.
This one, as usual, has a lot more to do with the A’s only scoring one run the entire game. Carter might get a day off tomorrow but he should still be out there playing whether it’s in Oakland or Sacramento. Benching him won’t help.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Jul 4, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He took those fastballs down the middle
The splitter was inevitable if he’d watched Matsui’s at bat.
Also - why is Fuentes still being used in key situations?
It's almost like A's hitters go up sometimes deciding
“I’m gonna see some pitches!” and sometimes deciding “I’m hitting that first pitch!” rather than taking the smartest approach which is, “Look for a pitch you can drive and drive it.”
The way you draw walks is to be a threat to swing, and the way you get great pitches to hit is to get into good hitter’s counts — in other words, the two are symbiotic.
Carter was the winning run and the only real power threat in the lineup. It actually makes you wonder what the heck League was thinking throwing a first pitch fastball center cut. And then it really makes you wonder what the heck Carter was looking for if not that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"Look for a pitch you can drive and drive it."
Best way to hit, yep.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Even if you think you know what's coming it doesn't mean you can always lay off it (in the case of the splitter)
Less understandable is why he wasn’t looking fastball before.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
You lay off
If you decide not to swing. But it was obvious he was going to throw that splitter.
Even watching Matsui chase a splitter is not the same as facing it yourself when it comes
Last of the Ninth - Photography
If you're looking for a splitter
You lay off. You don’t swing.
I agree the real question is why he let those two pitches go past, because once that happened, it looked like the strikeout was inevitable. A very very bad at-bat
holy snap
i thought down the middle was hyperbole. nope. dead accurate
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
"Walk off HR" location.
WTF was he looking for???
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
something underhand? the first pitch was 97 mph and the second was 95 or so...both with sink
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
his job is to destroy those pitches.
Brandon League is okay, but he’s not as awesome as people are making him out to be.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
96 mph sinker sounds pretty good to me. so does the 3 to 1 GO:AO ratio
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Not yet but Bob should
remind him what his job is. (hitting HR) BTW what pitch was he looking for he let two fastball go by without a swing.
by sfniners4life on Jul 4, 2011 4:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I Feel Like
I’ve watched this same exact game so many times already this season.
"You play to win the game."
I'm not defending Carter too much, because let's face it, that was a terrible, terrible AB.
But it’s not like it was just two garden-variety fastballs down the middle. It’s Brandon League. I’m really doubt Carter has faced someone with that kind of sinker before. It’s basically Cahill’s sinker, but at 96 mph. Both of those sinkers started outside, then tailed in.
We should expect that he'll look terrible sometimes.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 4, 2011 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I think people are expecting too much from this team.
Carter is learning and Pineda and League are nasty. Yesterday’s game was inevitable from the outset. It was nice to see McCarthy get through the game, but the M’s offense is the only offense that’s worse than ours, 2 is the most runs they are going to get against us.
at some point though
you gotta look at the pattern… at how many times this whole team makes solid, dependable contact early in an AB (esp. the first pitch, which is often a hittable fastball no matter who you’re facing), and you extrapolate that over all these years you have watched them take first pitch strike after first pitch strike, and you get the message that this is an organization that is teaching this approach as a dogma to be adhered to results-be-damned. Taking pitches as religion, in a philosophy that has won all of zero titles but which seems to be enforced from A ball on up with this franchise in this era like there’ll be consequences if you don’t do what Daddy says and go up there a-lookin’ and a-watchin’.
When I sat at the game with Bill Lee, Spaceman asked me right to my face, after DeJesus killed a big rally by talking 2 strikes right down Broadway and then K’ing on a slider… why don’t they swing? He told me that when he played, if a guy took meatballs like that late in a game with the thing on the line and guys on, they’d have taken him back to the locker room and pushed him face-first into the toilet.
"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto
by emperor nobody on Jul 4, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, damn them and their ridiculous dogmatic ways!
That’s why the A’s start every plate appearance with a first pitch strike at a rate that’s so out of the ordinary, so crazy, so much greater than the norm, that it’s…1.4 percentage points more than average. Wait, what?
One. Point. Four. The rate at which their first pitch strikes differ from the norm is one out of every 44 plate appearances. Not exactly a huge game-changing difference.
OK but they are 2nd in MLB in taking strikes since 2000 (lowest Z-Swing%)
I think EN’s basically right.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 4, 2011 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, sure, but I wasn't saying they're not patient at the plate.
Everybody knows that Beane has an affinity for players who walk a lot. But in your time frame, from 2000 to the present, the difference between the most freeswinging team at pitches in the zone and the most patient team at pitches in the zone is a small 4.8%. There’s just not much variation.
Hmmm....I'm not sure whether that's a big difference or not.
It’s about 7% of the original number.
The difference between the top OBP (Yankees .353) and the bottom (Pirates .322) is 9%. Isn’t that about the same?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 4, 2011 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know if this has been refuted or not ...
but could one of the reasons why the A’s have had so many good hitters come through and once they put on the green and gold forget how to hit, be the “patience first” philosophy of the organization? Could it take the ‘edge’ off?
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
In Moneyball
Beane claimed that patience cannot be taught. It may be that they’ve tried to teach it, and everywhere down the line it’s thrown players off their game, if they weren’t patient to begin with. And once they’re off their game, then the entire at-bat breaks down.
maybe there's a difference between "patience"
and taking pitches because you think you’re supposed to “see” alot of them. I recall Kotsay was doing that when he first came to the A’s because he was trying to fit into what he believed was the A’s philosophy. Happily, he was told that if he got his pitch early in the count he should go for it. But I wonder whether others might be thinking that.
Given that the A's haven't had a manager for a while until Bob Melvin
It wouldn’t surprise me if players would be thinking that, and nobody would be saying otherwise.
Serious question
How many guys have done that?
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
This is a fair question
Perception (especially mine) may not be reality. For example, if you asked me if Matt Holliday was a good player for us while we had him, I’d say “absolutely not, he was awful.” But I know the stats don’t show that – he was actually better than most people think.
But since you asked, I’d say Holliday qualifies, DeJesus this season, Piazza ‘07, Garciaparra … you’re right, there really aren’t that many – and some of these guys probably don’t ‘qualify’ … I think for me it’s probably just the overall offensive malaise that’s existed the last 5 years.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I only really think DeJesus and Willingham qualify.
It all goes back to us having shitty players.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I agree with DDJ, but not Willingham
I think he’s done a good job with us (when playing) – what more were you expecting??
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
His OPS has dropped 130 points (!)
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
still our best hitter
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't we have some really fucking good offensive teams in the early 2000's?
Who were also really patient.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Some of the players were known for that
OTOH Beane used to call Miggy “Mr. Swing at everything”
by OaklandSi on Jul 5, 2011 5:18 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Crisp's nickname should be "Mr. Swing at the first strike you see and pound it into the ground".
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Too bad you mis-spelled Kurt Suzuki
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Nah, Suzuki only does that with someone on first base.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Yes but being patient doesn't make you good
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
right.
But being patient doesn’t make you bad either.
Still don’t quite understand the point here
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 5, 2011 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
My point is that maybe the A's overvalue patience because they can get
cheap players who are patient…..where patience might be neither good nor bad, the cheap patient players are no better than the cheap impatient players.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Who comes to mind as players with nothing to offer other than patience?
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
barton?
Although I guess he has fielding going for him.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 5, 2011 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
He was also a really highly ranked prospect by just about everyone.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Here's an example. Let's say you love hitters who never swing at bad pitches, and you believe this to be they type of hitter you want to employ
You draft a SS, let’s call him Bob Crosby. You deliberately never draft the free swinging SS with comparable scouting reports, let’s call him Erick Aybar.
Bob doesn’t disappoint, swinging at a mere 24.8% of Balls out of the Strike Zone between 2007 till the end of his career, while Erick swings at a massive 36.6% of Balls between 2007 and now.
According to the Theory of Paramount Plate Discipline, Bob should be a much better hitter than Erick. But alas ‘tis not so. Erick isn’t good, particularly, but he’s serviceable for a SS with a 92 wRC+. However Bob is downright horrendous, with a miserable 70 wRC+.
Maybe Plate Discipline isn’t the greatest indicator of good hitting after all?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
because of 1 cherry picked example? really?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
OK, you want more macro stats
Since 2007 we can see that BB% is fairly highly correlated with wRC+, .49, which is almost as good as ISO, .59. But alas Power is expensive and we Small Budget Teams can’t afford it, so we go for the next best thing.
We then see that o-Swing% is fairly well negatively correlated with both BB%, -.81, and with wRC+, -0.50, better than LD%, FB%, or almost any other Plate Discipline or Batted Ball stat. Eureka! We just need to recruit players who don’t swing at bad pitches, and we can get them cheaply because other teams don’t value them as highly as we do!
We then proceed to execute our plan to perfection. We’re 1st in MLB in not swinging at Balls between 2000 and now! So, we might not have a great offense like those Power hitting ones, but we should at least be middle of the pack, right?
Wrong!!!!!
I can see the logic in what they might have been trying to do, but it’s not working for whatever reason.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry that's since 2000 not 2007
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait...
Since 2000, we’re 12th in MLB in runs scored.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Sorry, you have to sort to runs in that link.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Yes, and from 2000 to 2003 we had good offenses.
Between 2000 and 2003 our plan worked pretty well. Our Power wasn’t great but it was good, and our Plate Discipline and Walk rates were excellent:
2nd in o-Swing%
2nd in BB%
8th in ISO
6th in OBP
10th in SLG
4th in wRC+
But then we replaced our Giambis and Tejadas with the Plate Discipline Brothers, Hatteberg and Crosby. We had injuries. We maintained our Plate Discipline though, but the results weren’t there. From 2004 to now:
1st in o-Swing%
4th in BB%
26th in ISO
17th in OBP
26th in SLG
19th in wRC+
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
So whats your solution then?
But alas Power is expensive and we Small Budget Teams can’t afford it, so we go for the next best thing.
Your logic suggests that we do the best we can afford. Solid offense with bad power. Since we cannot afford power, we do pretty good on this side of the ball. Right?
Should have signed Russell Branyan
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
There are a number of possible solutions:
1) Put more emphasis on high ceiling players in the draft and International signees
2) Put more scouts in the marketplace to get better draftees, perhaps by mastering the California and Venezuela markets
3) Change the player development strategy to a vertical one, like getting a great hitting coach and giving him authority throughout the system and make him Director of Hitting. Get a Director of Pitching and Director of Fielding and Director of Baserunning too
4) Put more emphasis on defense and baserunning. Nevermoor had an excellent lineup filled with Polancos and Bournes, with varied Plate Discipline and little power
5) Continue the current strategy of getting high floor players through the draft and supplement it with superstar FA signees. Just don’t keep anyone after their 5th year with the team other than the FA
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That all right.
But the plate discipline isn’t the fault of our teams construction.
I think an excessive emphasis on plate discipline means
we’ve ended up with 9 Hattebergs, and ignored players with lesser plate discipline but that do have other valuable skills like Defense and Baserunning, like Polanco and Bourne
I also think that we’ve lost our Power since 2004 in part because we won’t acquire players with power but low plate discipline, or just pay massive amounts for great players. We’d rather distribute our money among many Kendalls, Kotsays, DeJesus’s and Willnghams than hire a Giambi, Tejada, A-Rod or Holliday.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
There's a reason for that...
Which is that if you put all your eggs in one basket - let’s call him Eric Chavez -- and that basket becomes a basket case, you’re screwed. If you move your eggs around, you have less chance of finding yourself short-changed when your superstar goes belly-up (either as Chavez did through injury, or, say, as Adrian Beltre did in his years with Seattle).
Refusing to hire a superstar because he might get
hurt has the same impact as hiring a superstar who gets hurt, no? You’re guaranteeing the same “disaster” you don’t want to risk.
Paying retail, ie $4-5M/WAR for middling players has been shown to be the least effective use of money. It’s OK if you’re filling a hole on a championship team, but it’s no way for a small budget team to build its core
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, but that's also the best way of keeping a high-impact player
Which is exactly what we lack. I’m gradually leaning my roster construction preference to be a “stars-and-scrubs” approach, because this idea of having a bunch of middling players turns out to be pretty bad.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: #4
IMO, defense has become overvalued. It appears the team was constructed with the assumption that Kouz, Barton, and Penny would continue to be elite defenders, when in fact they are good-to-above average defenders. Their gloves do not nearly make up for the shortcomings they have at the plate.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe. If nothing else, it might be unreliable.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
But that might be the fault of coaching
Rather than the individual players. When an entire team falls apart and your manager (and coaching staff) are fourth rate, you can perhaps look to factors other than the talent of the players themselves.
Or, the players just aren't as talented as that one season showed
This isn’t football — good coaching/managing can only take you so far in baseball. Baseball is more of an individual sport than anything else, which is far less influenced by coaching.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
When you see a team collapse
And you have a dog like Geren in charge, and bad coaches, then if someone slumps nobody will be able to fix it.
At this point, I’d fire the whole coaching staff outside of the pitching folks and Melvin.
I would not say Barton and Penny were a fault in roster construction
Even with average defense, Penny would be nearly 3 WAR and Barton nearly 4 WAR. And both are still pre arbitration. Both their batting stats were not sceaming fluke (no high BABIP).
They were both right decisions to take into 2011 as starters.
by Rio on Jul 5, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd probably cut 1 WAR off each of your estimates
but they still might be useful, and I didn’t see too many people in ST arguing that they weren’t good choices
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry I should have credited notsellingjeans for 1) - 3)
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
This is well said,
but do you have any tangible examples of the A’s actually doing this?
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Yeah, I've thought this for awhile
That plate discipline may be something of a proxy for being bad at hitting, but being able to cover it up. Sort of like how soft-tossers can make up for a lot of shortcoming by just throwing strikes, but they’ll never be that #1 or #2 starter a team covets because they can’t get it past 90 MPH.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I should say, extreme plate discipline
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
To answer my own question,
in 2002 the A’s ranked 9th in baseball with 800 runs, and last in swing % at 43%. So I don’t think looking at since 2000 is really fair.
If you look from 07-11, when we’ve sucked, we’re 26th in swing%, although it should be noted that the three teams in who swing less than us are the Yankees, Red Sox, and Philies.
Also of note is that this year, while our first pitch strike percentage is high, it’s certainly not off the charts.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
It's more just that we don't have many people who are actually good at doing something positive when contact is made
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Exactly
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
My hypothesis isn't that we're not swinging enough. It's that we're hiring
crappy hitters who take a lot of pitches because we perceive some sort of “market inefficiency” that isn’t there — The Hatteberg Complex.
We see that the Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox take a lot of pitches and we decide to hire cheaper hitters that take a lot of pitches and we teach our minor leaguers to take a lot of pitches.
The problem is that although good takers frequently take a lot of pitches, taking a lot of pitches doesn’t make you a good hitter.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, I don't really agree with the market inefficiency part,
but we’re in agreement on the crappy hitters part, which is ultimately the issue.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
You don't think we perceive a market inefficiency in patient hitters?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the inefficiency (if you can call what I'm about to say that) that the A's are trying to exploit
is the low risk, high reward player. The A’s are getting players who, if they hit their peak, could be great, but are very unlikely to do so. Good hitters tend to be patient and have a high Avg/OBP split. When they play, and ultimately fail, we’re left with low averages, low slugging, but a decent split in Avg/OBP.
The examples that come to mind of recent acquisitions are Conor Jackson and Scott Sizemore. One looks like it’s a failure, and one looks like a success (knock on wood). I just think we’ve ended up with more Jackson’s than Sizemores.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
You think Jackson and Sizemore have the potential to be "great"?
As in MVP or All-Star level?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Eh, alright, good.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
i think we specialize in modest floor, low ceiling players
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I feel like for we go after when we're actually trying to compete are all high ceiling.
Other than Kouz, no low ceiling guys who actually play really come to mind.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Which potential MVP candidates have we ever tried
to get? I can think of Carlos Gonzalez, Adrian Beltre and Chris Carter. Is there anyone else?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Holliday
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Yes
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Kinda a weird question I feel like.
So many really good players aren’t MVP status.
But FDLS, Gio, Cahill, Anderson, Harden all have or had Cy Young/MVP potential.
Hell, there’s that famous Peter Gammons quote about Crosby. Big Frank had votes in 06.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Kinda like this?
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jul 5, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Basically this
where the team has failed is producing or acquiring the one or two 5-6 WAR superstar players that can then be augmented with the Scott Sizemore, David DeJesus, and Coco Crisps of the world.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Exactly.
DDJ, Crisp, and even Sizemore might be great pieces along side your 1-2 really good position players.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Adding to that, if you're going to "let the young guys play"
rather than watch washed up “has beens and never weres” then you have to accept these kinds of horrible ABs, just like the occasional Sizemore 3B gaffe or Weeks baserunning overexuberance. Frustrating, but it absolutely comes with the territory.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
which is why people who want to blow up the team need to be prepared
They are asking for lots of ABs like that, top to bottom in the order.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 5, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 5, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
about that.
I just don’t care. Carter is 24 and he’s supposedly one of the best power prospects in the minors. Same with Taylor, who is 25 and apparently forgot how to hit. To a man, almost all of our top hitting prospects have totally sucked except for Weeks. Green is hitting OK in double A, but you have to add “for a shortstop” to that.
I just want someone that comes up and starts to kick ass and take names. Just once I want a prospect to “hit” instead of getting a cup of coffee and then going back and forgetting how to hit in the minors or having to take their lumps first. I want a guy to come up and hit the ball like he’s pissed off at it.
Basically I want Mike Stanton to happen to us.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I'm working on it.
It’s just going to take 19 more years before Hunter is close to being major league ready.
Take the Bryce Harper route,
but enroll him in JC right after middle school
"Even if the plane is on autopilot, I don't want a monkey in the cockpit" - ilikeike
And tell him not to be apparently one of the world's grade-A a-holes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We went to a BBQ on Monday at a friend's house.
The whole street is in on it. The house next door had a couple young kids playing baseball with some of the adults in the driveway, so he wanted to go over and watch. He had his glove on, and was ready to jump in anytime the ball came near him. When he finally came up to bat, he swung at everything, but he connected on some (some kind of plastic ball and bat) and launched a few from the entrance of the garage over the dunk-tank wall on the sidewalk. Everyone loved his pitching windup too, and commented on his arm.
by LoneStranger on Jul 6, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
dude, he made a ball disappear at the tailgate. the kid is ready now. he's got the clearing of his cleats down too. can i be his agent?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
And not to teams who draft lower than us
Heck, the Braves (Freeman), Giants (Posey), Phillies (D. Brown) — these aren’t teams with lousy records who are drafting and developing impact position players. They’re teams that have been more successful lately than Oakland who are drafting and developing impact position players.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, Posey was the number 5 pick in the '08 draft...
But your point is still correct.
"Even if the plane is on autopilot, I don't want a monkey in the cockpit" - ilikeike
Ah, my bad on that one.
Maybe should have said Brandon Belt, but he may or may not turn out to be good.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
DDJ
You think Carter’s AB sucked , what about DDJ and CJ. Why can’t Sweeney get in
against rh pitchers?
Rooting for this team is ridiculous
As a fan, the feeling of helplessness when your team is down 2-1 in the 6th inning is unbearable.
SCORE
ONE
RUN,
PLEASE.
CF -you should change your allegiance to the Rox
All the best A’s are there anyway…
Its Michael Pineda. He is the best at pitching.
Chill out. Its when we get shutout facing Bruce Chen that you can complain.
1-Run was needed
in the last 3 innings. Yes Pineda is legit, but he only pitched 6 innings. Score 1 Run vs. Laffey, Pauley, and League… I don’t think that is much to ask for.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 5, 2011 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, really?
Laffey gave up 32 hits in 33.2 IP. Pauley gave up 29 hits in 45.2 IP. League gave up 31 hits in 35.2 IP. Combined, they walked 29 in 115 IP. Their ERAs are 1.87, 1.38, and 1.04, respectively.
Even if the A’s had an average offense, they should expect to score only about half a run against these guys every three innings. Or, put another way, if you see these guys for three innings in each game, you should only expect to score a run against them every other game. I don’t know if you would think that’s too much to ask for, but it’s certainly too much to expect.
Oops!
Misread a column, Brandon League’s ERA is 3.28 (13 ER in 35.2 IP).
Doesn’t really change the point that much, though. These guys throw lots of innings without giving up a run.
The A's offense is like a dud fire work.
It starts out with a faint fizzle, then sparks to life for a second before going out with a big fat nothing in the end. It gets harder and harder to watch a team just flail at pitches no matter who the pitcher is and fail. The team ERA is so low, that it is ridiculous. It gets harder and harder to get psyched up to watch a game when the scoring is so few and far between that you think you are watching a soccer game.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
clearly, it IS a soccer game to ownership
and this means that to compete, they need to sign Pelé, Franz Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto and Giorgio Chinaglia ASAP because the All-Star goalkeeping of Shep Messing is not enough to win games.
"If we start getting into that sh*t, we might as well get out the plastic sheeting and have an orgy." --Gaijin Suketto
by emperor nobody on Jul 4, 2011 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Fire Sepp Blatter now!
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jul 5, 2011 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
we tried. but the pink slip received a bribed and was disqualified.
by AV on Jul 5, 2011 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Eastern Time Zone
Especially West Coast night games that start here after 10p. Can’t do it any more. My computer is upstairs and it aint worth the trek up there. Now i grab a cold one and watch golf channel replays and just fall asleep and check with you guys on AN in the morning.
The truth hurts
Well, that game was a bummer
I pretty much knew the game was over after Matsui’s strickout. It might’ve been wise to pinch hit someone for Carter, but then again, he isn’t going to learn if he isn’t given the chance to fail.
In other news, Michael Pineda is really good. And I’ve never enjoyed watching Cust strickout as much as I did today.
I don't feel that I'm feeling your feelings, about these feelings that you feel.
just got back from phone booth park
from the looks of everyone’s comments, it doesn’t look like this game is worth watching.
At least the A's didn't lose to the Padres
I don't feel that I'm feeling your feelings, about these feelings that you feel.
Some "nice to see" notes from the minors:
Jermaine Mitchell is, IIRC, 2 for 6 with a couple of BBs so far at AAA.
Ryan Ortiz is 5 for 11 since being promoted to AA.
Grant Green had 3 hits today, now batting .296 overall.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
thus far for the river cats
= barton got a hit. woo! a pinch hit! woo! avg up to .160. he’s back baby!
= jermaine mitchell is 1 for 2 with 2 BBs
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
River Cats have now lost 7 in a row
And with Barton, Kouzmanoff and LaRoche there. ;-)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Wait 'til August...
Not uncomfortable enough yet.
We've got to make up some room here before the All-Star break...
If not then we need to beomce sellers ASAP!
Call up Taylor in September and how about bringing back Milton Bradley for the league minimum after we trade Willingham, Crisp & DeJesus??? :)
Every man for himself...
I would actually move DeJesus back up to the number 3 spot in the order...
and I think Sweeney needs more AB’s too!!!
Every man for himself...
Normally, I Would Be Happy About Facing The Mariners
Now, we always end up facing Pineda and Hernandez, and lose every time.
Oh what an honor it was to see De Jesus blow it with two men on.
Loved seeing jack cust strike out. I watch A’s games for the LuLz
Hello? You play to win the game!
What's the current speculation on which pitchers go on Sunday and are replaced, only to have those guys go on Sunday too and be replaced?
I’m hoping that Cahill can be selected. From Baseball-Reference.com:
— Players with at least 3.0 WAR who did not make the teams: Kyle Lohse, 3.1; Anibal Sanchez, Michael Pineda and Trevor Cahill, 3.0.
Granted, it’s probably BBR’s WAR, but still.
Meh, when it comes to pitchers, I actually hope they don't go
I don’t want them getting too amped up and straining something. That said, Gio and Cahill are (knock knock) our healthiest guys, so if they went, that’d be okay.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Just because
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jul 5, 2011 10:26 AM PDT reply actions
Great Pitching
7th Inning: Aaron Laffey
8th Inning: David Pauley
9th Inning: Brandon League
None of these guys are Cy Young caliber.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 5, 2011 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Pauley and League are legit
3.06 and 2.58 by FIP, respectively. Not Cy Young (Or Rivera), but that’s their equivalent of Devine and Bailey. Definitely above-average guys.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Which leads me to believe that DDJ won't even net a comp pick.
woo fucking hoo
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Assuming he isn't out too long and doesn't fall off a cliff when he returns
hopefully he can push back into A range.
I was at the game yesterday.
When Fuentes came into the game you could hear the crowd just mooooooooooan. When they let DLS replace him with two outs and two on the feeling of hope was almost tangible.
I am now convinced that albert pujols is, in fact, not a human being.
one month ahead of schedule.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I mean I just don't get it. How does a bone just heal faster.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
closer to a stress fracture than a full one
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, still. a month early.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
went to Bartolo Colon's doctor
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jul 5, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I was looking at how players in A, AA, and AAA were playing a lot lately
because the MLB team has given me very little to be excited about. And I was wondering what the team would look like if it was comprised solely of the players from A Stockton Ports, AA Midland RockHounds, and AAA Sacramento Rivercats mixed with MLB Oakland A’s. Positions would be awarded solely on merit and on how one was performing in one’s given league (I know the numbers don’t translate from A to AA, from AA to AAA, and from AAA to the MLB, but again, this post is in large part based on the offensive ineptness of the A’s, and my hope as a fan in our farm system; coupled with the fact it is fun to look at stats, and to pretend that a Kid killing it in Stockton would be taking better at-bats in the Majors than Cliff Pennington and Kurt Suzuki).
C: Anthony Recker (AAA Sac Rivercats): 71 Games, 21 2B, 12 HR, 34 RBI, .298 Avg.
1B: Michael Spina (AA Midland Rockhounds): 77 Games, 18 2B, 10 HR, 52 RBI, .269 Avg
2B: Jemile Weeks (AAA & A’s): Sac: .321/22 RB1/3 HR/10 SB, OAK: .299/9 RBI/6 SB
3B: Scott Sizemore (Oakland A’s): 22 Games, 2 HR, 10 RBI, .329 AVG (best on team)
SS: Grant Green (AA Midland Rockhounds): 73G, 4HR, 39 RBI, .296 AVG (21 Errors)
OF: Michael Choice (A Stockton Ports): 2nd in Cal League w/20 Homeruns, 9th in Runs (52), .256 AVG, 54 RBI
OF: Jermaine Mitchell (AA Midland): 74 Games, 67 Runs, 15 2B, 13 3B, 10 HR, 50 RBI, .355 AVG [1st in Texas League AVG;4th in SLG%;1st in OBP;2nd in BB;1st in 3B;1st in R)
OF: Jai Miller (AAA Sacramento): 59 Games, 152B, 16HR, 48 RBI, 11 SB, .282 AVG
DH: Adrian Cardenas (AAA Sacto): 74Games, 16 2B, 3HR, 29RBI, .305 AVG
Bench: CoCo Crisp (.266 AVG, highest amongst regular A’s, 3HR, 25 SB); Stephen Parker (AA Midland Rockhounds): 152B, 8HR, 48RBI, .275 AVG); Josh Donaldson (Sacramento Rivercats): 172B, 12HR, 40 RBI, .256 AVG); Josh Willingham (.231 Avg, 42 RBI (leads A’s), 10 HR (leads A’s)
SP: Gio Gonzalez: 8-5, 106 K, 2.31 ERA, 1.23 WHIP
SP: Trevor Cahill: 8-6, 83 K, 3.28 ERA, 1.34 WHIP
SP: Brandon McCarthy: 1-5, 70.1 IP, 42 K, 3.33 ERA, 1.19 WHIP
SP: Tyson Ross: 3-3, 36 IP, 24 K, 2.75 ERA, 1.28 WHIP
SP: Guillermo Moscoso: 2-4, 2.51 ERA, 43 IP, 22 so, 1.14 WHIP (lowest among our SPs)
RP: Jose Guzman (A Stockton Ports): 2-1, 1.76 ERA, 46 IP, 50 SO, .89 WHIP, 14 Saves
RP: Brad Ziegler: 29.1 IP, 1.84 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 25 K
RP: Joey Devine: 0-1, 18.1 IP, 17K, 2.45 ERA, 1.04 WHIP
RP: Grant Balfour: 4-1, 32.2 IP, 35K, 2.48 ERA, 1.16 WHIP
RP: Michael Wuertz: 0-0, 2.84 ERA, 25.1 IP, 23 SO, 1.26 WHIP
RP: FDLS: SAC: 19.2 IP, 21 SO, 1.83 ERA; OAK 4.2 IP, 9K, 1.93 ERA, .64 WHIP
CP: Andrew Bailey: 12.1 IP, 0.73 ERA, 7 SAVES, 11SO, 0.57 WHIP, 1 ER
Again, there are more guys putting up good numbers in the minors, but they are a bit older and nothing more than career AAAA players (Matt Carson, Wes Timmons, Steve Tolleson), so for arguments sake I give the edge to younger guys having pretty good seasons albeit flawed in many ways (Parker, Spina, Green), and guys who may be AAAA, but at least deserve their shot (Jai Miller).
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Jul 5, 2011 3:47 PM PDT reply actions
Eh, so it goes.
Pineda is really good at baseball, getting dominated by him happens. The good things is that McCarthy came back right on schedule and pitched well.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
somebody please tell townsend to stop using whip as a metric for pitcher quality. sounds like a dope.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I think it just makes him sound kinky - and I like it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
i always forget about the s&m demographic that the a's are targeting
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Carter sitting
Athletics Oakland Athletics
#Athletics vs. #Mariners: Weeks 2B, Sizemore 3B, Crisp CF, Matsui DH, Jackson 1B, DeJesus RF, Suzuki C, Sweeney LF, Pennington SS, Cahill P
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
vs. King Felix I guess that makes sense.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 5, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Except for Conor Jackson not being good
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
good point.
Melvin really loves CoJack I guess because he remembers the pretty solid pre-Valley Fever CoJack. Plus they both are Cal alumni.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 5, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Matt Holliday just hit a bomb to dead center off Edinson Volquez
second one of the night.
However, he did not smile.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
HE DOESN'T CARE
If you'll excuse me, all of you, I'm going to go tearily spill my heart out to my only friend, the water heater. --danmerqury
hates America.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
wait, which one?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
THE america?
or the other one?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
obviously, i need baseball to start soon. real soon.
by AV on Jul 5, 2011 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
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