Why don't the A's re-sign Willingham?
by Boone55 on Jul 23, 2011 11:34 AM PDT
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Why don't the A's re-sign Willingham instead of trading him? This is a question I find asking myself the last couple of weeks. Even if we trade him with a reliever I don't believe the A's will get anything of significance in return. Most likely another AAAA player of the Scott Hairston or Emil Brown mold that we will just get rid of in a year or two. At what point does Beane decide to get some continuity in a lineup for more than one year so fans and coaches can know what to expect from a player and what they are capable of. The A's have not had an All-Star caliber hitter for more than one year since Tejada left in 2003.
Now I am writing this with the assumption that the A's front office has not tried to re-sign Willingham. But given Willingham's recent travels and production the last couple years, I doubt there is any GM's dying to sign him as a free agent. And players of his caliber usually will take security over one year deals every off season. For once it would be nice to have a decent hitter who will produce 25 HRS and 80-90 RBI each season and keep him around for a couple years. My guess is a 2 year 15M-20M would get the deal done. I am not saying he is an All-Star hitter, but he can drive in runs, field his position and doesn't cause any problems.
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Might as well
We can’t attract any other free agents, and we don’t have a better in house DH option (I’m looking at you Chris Carter).
First off, Oakland isn't going to trade him if the return is somebody like Emil Brown.
Whoever his suitors are, they know they’ll be receiving a compensation pick(s), and must match his value accordingly. If the A’s don’t feel the prospects are more valuable than the possible draft picks, they’re not going to trade him.
Secondly, even at his best, calling Willingham an All-Star caliber bat is a stretch. And he’s having the worst year of his career. Almost every statistic he has posted (BB%, K%, AVG, OBP, SLG) is the worst of his career. He’s also an awful defender, and would be best suited as a DH, which would block Carter. Carter is younger, cheaper, has higher potential, and could probably match Willingham’s offensive output.
Personally, I would much rather re-sign David DeJesus. Unlike Willingham, DeJesus’ putrid year appears to have been somewhat based on luck. His BABIP is nearly fifty points lower than his career BABIP. FWIW, ZiPS projects that number to improve, which would make DeJesus about a league average bat. But DeJesus is a much better defender, which increases his value dramatically though he’s probably be much cheaper to re-sign.
by NateHST on Jul 23, 2011 12:15 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I said I know he is NOT an All-Star.
And secondly he is not awful defensively and I am sick and tired of the younger and cheaper argument. How many years do the A’s have to finish below .500 before we stop looking for younger and cheaper and go for proven and solid hitter? It is not like the money we save is going to go toward a good hitter. None of them will sign in Oakland.
Signing Willingham would not block Carter
It would only take a 3 year deal. He could play corner outfield spot or DH. Matsui will be gone. Carter can play 1st or DH. Also, currently Carter is not being blocked. He has to hit his way into the line up (.200 at AAA).
If he hasn't been awful, then he's just been really, really bad.
His UZR/150 this year is -18.4. He isn’t somebody you want roaming your outfield.
Exactly. He's a DH or nothing at this point.
If you want to block Carter with him, you must have not an ounce of faith in Carter’s talent. Even still, its not hard to go grab a guy like Russell Branyan last minute (not THE guy, but you know, DH’s aren’t exactly hard to come by).
If we can get anything of value that can even beat H-Rod and Corey Brown (lol) that makes it even sweeter. Willingham’s not a very good player as a position player, boggles my mind people think he’s decent, he’s absolutely murdering us out there, even by the eye test, but also by UZR.
This is for Nate and PL78 and anyone else that can help ...
I look at Willingham’s HR’s and RBI, and even with the games missed because of injury, I have to say I would’ve been ok with these numbers if you’d told me this is where he’d be mid-season. I understand RBI isn’t a great stat (re: showing value), but the home runs are decent … are the extra base hits what’s missing? IOW, what is he not doing this season that he’d been better at previously??
Lol – and please don’t write ‘hitting’ – I want to learn what I should be paying attention to.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
At a glance, you can get a good idea of how well a player is performing
by looking at his slugging and on-base percentages. Playing in Oakland, which is a pitcher-friendly park, we can expect these numbers to be down a bit for most players. But Willingham played for the Nationals the past couple of years, and their park might actually be even harsher to hitters than the O.co Coliseum.
Before this season, the most Willingham ever struck out was 20.7% of the time, which is slightly above league average, but still fine. This year, though, he’s striking out 28.0% of the time (that’s a big change), but hasn’t actually improved any other facet of his offense (getting on base or hitting for power). Sometimes you’ll see a player strike out more while hitting for more power. That hasn’t been the case.
So he’s striking out a lot more and he hasn’t improved otherwise. What this means is that he’s putting a lot fewer balls in play, causing his batting average to fall. And since he’s walking less than previous years, he’s getting on base at a much lower rate than usual.
Even still, he hasn’t been bad offensively. He’s one of the A’s best hitters. It’s not saying much, though. But he’s 32 years old and he’s dealt with several injuries over the past few years. He should improve some, but he’s still not going to be the answer to the A’s in LF, since his defensive value is nil.
Is K rate is really strange.
Why has it gone up? Age? Health? Better pitching?
Also AN really needs to realize that “being the best A’s hitter” is akin to being the 12th best hitter on the Red Sox. Its meaningless. When you set the bar low like that, only bad things can happen. We must strive for a better product.
by PL78 on Jul 24, 2011 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well his UZR.150 this year is based on 54 starts in LF
That’s way too small a sample size to base anything off of. He’s been a bad defender over his career but acting like this 54 game sample is representative of his true ability doesn’t seem right.
Not to mention
In his 1st few games back off the DL in LF, it was clearly evident he’s been nursing /favoring that sore achilles because his play was awful, whereas before he was just avg.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
This is counterproductive to your point.
Leg injuries are seriously detrimental to an outfielder’s range. He was bad to begin with, then he had leg injuries, and now it’s quite possible he’s worse.
I said
he was an avg OF to begin with, then with the achilles injury his lack of range limited him from getting to routine plays, so he’s def gotten worse. I’d still say re-sign him.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I was just going by what I witnessed
this year.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's SO misleading.
That’s cumulative UZR. By UZR/150, he’s a -5.2. Which isn’t great, of course.
Yeah, I should have said FRAR.
I was trying to keep it simple, since he’s arguing strictly from the eye test side of things. But yeah.
Actually... it was confusing
The discussion went from talking about one season’s worth of data to Willingham’s career, cumulative record. That transition wasn’t clear and it would be misleading if someone mistook the -16.7 UZR as a per season number.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Keep in mind that his injuries have been leg-related.
He missed time last year for knee related issues, which required surgery, as well as this year for an strained achilles tendon. His range is awful.
Still remains to be seen how he recovers
54 games of UZR is like 2 and a half weeks of batting stats. Not worth trying to draw conclusions of samples that small.
This is true.
But even if he regresses to his former self, he’s regressing to a pretty poor left fielder.
Willingham would be an AS on an A's team
if he weren’t injured.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Can't agree
With our pitching All-Stars would all come from the rotation/bullpen. Willingham could only be an All-Star if he saved a dozen children from a burning schoolhouse and was voted in.
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If we are a rebuilding team, we need to steer away from players who are over 30.
That’s the only way to do it right.
here is the problem
Signing him will be tough considering how he will command a fair contract and the A’s will need to over pay. Willingham will want 3 years or more that is a given. Which I see him getting a 3/30 or a 4/37 deal once hse is a FA. That being said do the A’s spend that type of money for Willingham or try to sign a 3b or 1b player that can play D too. He is not a player you build around but a piece of the puzzle type of player.
TBH, if all it took was 3/30 or 4/37 I'd re-sign him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He'll cost less than that.
Paul Konerko got 3/37. Aubrey Huff got 2/22.
Konerko’s 2 years older than Willingham, and Huff is one year older. But they both had better walk years than Willingham will have. He won’t get four years, and he won’t exceed $10M per year.
Konerko is a vastly superior player in every way, shape, or form to Willingham.
Willingham might get 3/27 if he’s lucky. But probably 1/10 or something for an AL team looking for a DH.
In that case, I sure hope that team is the A's.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wow, really?
FG has the going rate per WAR around $4.5M. He’s not even close to being worth that this year, and you’re talking about buying him through his age 35 or 36 seasons. He’s already a bad defender and doesn’t stand to get any better. It’s basically paying him market value, and praying he’s as good as he’s ever been. Otherwise, those are huge overpayments. I wouldn’t touch either of those deals with a stick.
I don't want to re-sign him in the first place.
I wouldn’t spend more than $4M or $5M and I wouldn’t go over one year guaranteed.
I would gladly pay "market value" for a very good hitter.
The A’s can’t get guys who can hit to sign here for market value. If Oakland wants to build a decent offense, they’ll have to develop hitters, trade for good young hitting prospects, and pay $9-10M/year for actual proven good hitters. And I have little doubt that Willingham will be a productive hitter for the next 3 years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Reason for those numbers
First you will not get Willingham on a 1 year deal unless he gets shut out on the FA market and takes arbitration which would give him around 8 million a year deal. Second he has power which many teams need besides the A’s. There will be deals out there since the FA market is very thin next year. Compare with what have been given in past years he will get a multi-year deal in the 8-10 million range and 3 to 4 years.
That's what I expect
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Willingham is not a "very good hitter" though.
He’s okay. A decent #6 guy on a regular offense. He’s no fit for us because we have Carter and he’s so bad in LF Matsui is an upgrade.
A career 121 wRC+ guy is in no way, shape, or form, a #6 guy on a regular offense.
Willingham this year, sure, but I doubt this four month sample is his true talent.
A career 121 wRC+ guy is good, sure
but when that 121 wRC+ guy has knee surgery at age 31 and then achilles problems at age 32 in the midst of having his worst season ever, it’s kind of hard to look at him and see a 121 wRC+ going forward.
Granted he’s crept up to 112 so far this year, but 32 years old with health issues does not shout out “SIGN HIM TO AN EXTENSION” to me.
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DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
This post sums up my feelings very well.
Leg injuries + having the worst year of his career + being on the wrong side of 28 (that’s peak age, right?) scares me too much to commit that much money and that many years.
Signing him to an extension gives you the ability to trade him after a potentially good 2012.
Which would vastly increase his trade value and the resulting prospects. Weigh that against what you can get now and what your OF prospects are for next season and I think it’s a gamble worth taking.
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This works both ways.
He’s old and prone to injury. He could have a potentially bad 2012, while sitting on a fat contract, and then there will be no suitors. For now, there are suitors, and I’ll take what we can get for him, so long as it’s worth whatever pick(s) the A’s would receive.
At worst, the injuries turn him into a productive DH.
Nothing really indicates Taylor or Carter are going to be challenging that position anytime soon. You could nurse the legs this season and next rotating him in and out of the field. The trade market looks ridiculously stingy this year, and do you really want to wait 5 years to find out if those picks fizzle?
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
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"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
Exactly. And he's not "old"
He’s just not young.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's not good.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 25, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
He has been, though
He’s having a poor season. It doesn’t make him a bad player.
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You and I disagree completely about your first point.
Carter should be handed the DH spot for the next calendar year. If he still fails to produce, then you find somebody else. But Carter was supposedly the savior for this power-barren team, and nobody wants to give him playing time. Matsui needs to be 86’d very soon.
and you give up the rights to the type a compensation, presuming they're exist in the new CBA
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Would the new CBA really go into effect right away?
I feel like this season should be grandfathered into the old one.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Per the CBA, a compensation pick is granted
when the team signs the FA. The CBA expires on Dec 11, 2011. There is no rule in place granting compensation picks for a signing after that date.
A team could sign a FA before Dec 11 and thus give up the pick, but from the signing team’s point of view it makes sense to just wait until the provision expires.
It’s quite possible that the new CBA will renew the provision in some way, and if that is the intention then it’s possible that GMs will know about it in advance. But there’s nothing in any current agreement granting a draft pick for any signing after Dec 11.
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it'd be a massive loophole if that language wasn't grandfathered for at least existing contracts no? irrespective of whether compensation is accrued under the new cba for a player that would have been a type a free agent under the old cba?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
No.
It sounds like you’re conceiving the draft pick as an inherent part of the player’s old contract, but it’s not. It is granted as a consequence of the new contract.
Your focus on “existing contracts” is misguided. It is not part of Josh Willingham’s current contract that draft picks come with him. It is an MLB rule that says when you sign a FA to a new contract, you may have to give up picks to the team that last had him.
Unless it is renewed, that rule expires with the current CBA. All the GMs have been aware of this all along and they make their trading decisions accordingly.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Counter point...
Thus far, it doesn’t look like draft pick compensation is going away when they write the new CBA. My guess is GM’s are expecting the status quo in 2012.
The monster at the end of this blog.
do you think that was in beane's mind when he traded for dejesus and willingham?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
The only thing I've seen reported from
any source that would be in the know is when Theo Epstein said it was still undetermined. That was in an interview a few days before the draft.
Have you seen any reports suggesting a definite intent to renew the draft pick scheme, or is this just your own speculation?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
From what I've read
Draft pick compensation isn’t a priority in the next negotiation. I’m guessing a return to the status quo.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Interesting, thank you.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Basically this
If you (not you, PMF, but anyone) thinks the offense sucks this year, take Willingham and Crisp out and look again. If we want a decent offense not really for next year, but for 2013, Willingham has to be a part of it.
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by cuppingmaster on Jul 25, 2011 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
if we can re-sign him
for 3yrs/ $30M, I’d do it.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
yes, resign him, conor, crisp
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
Signing someone takes two signatures....
Why would he WANT to stay in Oakland, other than because if it’s the biggest offer?
The guy will be 32 next year and he's not exactly tearing the league apart.
If the A’s made the largest or longest offer, he’d be a fool not to take it. Unless he has a great resurgence in a couple years, it could very well be his last MLB contract.
If he really does suck now, then why should the A's pay him the most?
If he doesn’t suck, it’s very likely he’ll get a better deal somewhere else. He may even take a 1 year deal to get his value back up.
My point is that I doubt he really wants to stay. Why? No one else does.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
If he thinks it may be his last contract, it doesn't matter
whether his statistics are driven down by the Colisum.
If he's good enough to deserve a multi-year deal then someone else will offer it...
If he’s not good enough for it, then why should we take the draft picks?
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't think they should re-sign him.
But the fact that this may be his last (sizable) free agent contract should be a real concern for him and his agent, and he should take the largest one he can find, no matter who it’s from.
You're looking at it from his perspective...
I’m looking at it from the A’s perspective. If he doesn’t get any other offers, then the A’s would be giving a contract to someone who stinks.
If he does get other offers, the A’s should not be the top one.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesn't stink.....
Enough already!
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
This year he does... and he's not young anymore...
So it’s certainly reasonable to think he’s headed downhill.
He’s barely above replacement this year.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesn't stink
But that said, he isn’t someone I’d re-sign.
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He stinks this year.
I fully grant that this is a down year for him.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
He will be 33 next year
and before the season, he did say he would sign an extention with us. But now, who knows?
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Nate and PL78 do you watch the A's?
I dont really care about defense right now because the offense cant score more then 3 runs a game. You cant have gold glovers out there at every position. And what young stud is he going to take playing time away from? Carter has sucked so far and Taylor putting up ok numbers in AAA.
You know a run prevented is the same as a run created?
Willingham’s put up 0.3 WAR this year, mostly because his defense has been so awful. It wouldn’t be hard to find somebody to match those numbers. I nominate Shane Peterson for the job.
PS: You have no idea how much is pisses posters off when you question whether they’re a fan or not.
Knock it off with the "do you watch the A's?" stuff just because someone's position is different from yours
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Could you imagine that attack in the 50s or 60s?
Do you even listen to the A’s on the radio???
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I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm with you on the defense
look where it’s gotten us this year, the year of Pitching & Defense.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Except the defense stinks...
So the theory still holds that pitching and defense win games. Actually, because we stink and our defense stinks, there could be some positive correlation there.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Pitching and Defense + Passable Offense
Isn’t the worst formula on earth. I think the A’s of 2011 were felled by pretty bad defense which all of us I think felt was to a degree unexpected, and hitting that was beyond atrocious. Virtually everyone in our lineup is having a career worst year simultaneously. The Giants won a World Series with a passable offense. The A’s can compete with a passable offense. This isn’t passable. Is Willingham a passable guy? I don’t think so going forward – especially not at a rate where he’d be one of the higher paid guys on the field. We need to grow our own hitters, few if any will sign here willingly or trade pitching to get hitting. That’s why I think we should trade Andrew Bailey and get the overvalue associated with his being a closer to get us a hitter (or two?).
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Exactly, this team's problem has been crap defense and poor baserunning.
We’d be in much better shape if we had last years defense and baserunning. The 2011 Oakland A’s are the worst at fundamentals out of any A’s team I’ve ever seen.
Like I said, Willingham's an ok DH.
I wouldn’t hate having him there next year. But being a good hitter on this particular team is like picking the turd with the most polish on it, everyone other than Weeks is terrible and not worth keeping long term.
Willingham has exactly 1 season with 25 HRs and exactly 1 season with 80+ RBIs...
At 32, what makes you think he would get it in a pitchers’ park when he’s probably past his prime?
Trade Willingham!
Then re-sign him during the offseason if you want to have him around in 2012 and beyond. The A’s will have a protected 1st round pick…
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'm still rooting for an unprotected pick.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I'm still rooting for Salma Hayak to join me in my bed
Who’s got the more unrealistic fantasy this year?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Well, I don't know your personal life,
but I’m guessing you.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You're probably right
But the A’s are currently sitting at #8. That’s a lot of ground to make up to finish at .500.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It probably won't be Selma's fantasy...
i've never tried to rank them to be honest. i guess i like beer.- stm72
you'd almost wanna let him split for the rental
and then resign him again as an FA, so we could get a little haul for him and then retrieve him again after the season’s over.
Given that he is new to the AL this year I think he’s done real well with the stick for us and he is pretty much the only guy where you don’t think you’re deluding yourself when you stay to watch his AB thinking he’ll go deep. The ball he hit into 234 in the Coli was just molested; you simply can’t hit a ball further than that at night in that building and I was mightily impressed by that poke, as I was by today’s. His HRs also seem to mean something; they are usually crucial to the game and not just window dressing on games already decided one way or the other.
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Well said
The Hammah actually gives me hope when he’s at the plate!
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I don't think Willingham is a good player and would love to see him traded or jettisoned for draft picks
I see no point in signing this guy to FA deal or extension or whatever one calls it
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
I want to change my vote
I voted that we trade him bc I thot he was 33. I’d at least offer him a contract, say 2 yrs with an team option.
I'm really shocked by the poll.
I think it is an obvious move to trade him.
I don’t think he’d sign an extension for as low as I’d want to sign him. I agree with others that he is destined to be a DH, and agree also that we shouldn’t block Carter. For all his struggles, I’d like to give him a shot because he has displayed prodigious power (yes it is in the PCL but…)….
That’s where I stand.
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I disagree
Nobody’s blocking Carter but himself. I don’t think having CC in Sac should dictate who we should or should not sign.
The reason we should re-sign him is two-fold: it will be hard to find his replacement via free agency. As previously stated, FA’s don’t want to sign here, AND none of our prospects w/power potential appear to be ready to play at this level, yet. I don’t think A’s Nation will burn down Beane’s office if we re-signed the hammer.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
We'll see where he ends up... but replacing a .5 - 1.0 WAR player isn't hard...
He’s darn near replacement level.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
If FA's don't want to sign here, why would Willingham? Willingham is a free agent.
Carter played a full season at AAA and did quite well. He was ready to play full time in Oakland when they called him up last year, but he’s been jerked back and forth and has dealt with injuries. As soon as the A’s release or trade Matsui, he should be the full time DH.
When he was first signed, Willingham talked about how he wanted to stay in Oakland.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I thought it was just that he was open to an extension.
They’d have to sign him relatively soon, if that’s the case. Regardless, I don’t think he’s worth whatever he’d demand.
Funny how
Weeks and Sizemore doesn’t have that problem; being jerked around to and from AAA ?
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
Weeks was called him and given a full-time job right off the bat. Sizemore was jerked around by Detroit and performed extremely poorly during his brief time in the MLB. Since Oakland acquired him and gave him a full-time job, he’s been quite good. The A’s should do the same with Carter and give him a full-time job, regardless of how he performs during his first handful of at-bats.
what I'm talking about is
both Weeks and Sizemore made the most of their opportunities, while Carter didn’t and as a result, we have Carter’s inconsistent playing time – didn’t realize it needed to be spelled out..
Trust me, it has nothing to do with the A’s giving Weeks a full-time job. If Weeks hadn’t proved himself in the limited time that he did, Ellis would not have been traded. Stop trying to shield Carter from criticism. If he had done his damn job while he was called up last year and this year, his play would have forced the A’s to bench / trade someone.
So far, Carter’s plate appearances have been down right pathetic, and don’t even get me started on his D.
by sf drift king on Jul 23, 2011 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I am not writing him off
just sayin he’s where he belongs, in AAA. He’ll get his shot next season. Besides, since going back to Sac, he’ batting in the low .200’s.
by sf drift king on Jul 25, 2011 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, for some players
the dislocation of moving carries some cost — more psychological and logistical than monetary. So that would give the team at the current location a small advantage. For that reason a player who is already here and becomes a FA might be slightly more inclined to re-sign than would a FA who would have to come here.
Willingham has a wife and kids. Does anyone know if they relocated to California or if they’re still in Alabama?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
This is my biggest issue with how the A's have developed Carter.
We have essentially no idea whether Carter will be able to contribute at all in 2012. Willingham is best suited as a DH at this point, and I’d be thrilled to have him back if Carter busts. But we just don’t have any indication whether or not Carter can handle big league pitching. Stop jerking him around, and bring him up for good.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
No kidding...
We KNOW that Jackson stinks. We KNOW that Matsui stinks. Yet… they still get ABs.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the FO still has hopes that they can fetch a small bit of value at the deadline.
That’s the only logical thing I can think of. They have to know the season is lost, they’re definitely not playing Jackson and Matsui because they’re the best available players.
I agree. Once the deadline is over with, Matsui will be released and Jackson will be on the bench.
by Brett Narloch on Jul 23, 2011 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
The right thing to do with Willingham
is to trade him, regardless of whether or not you want him back. If he gets traded, then returns to the A’s in the offseason then he’s worth the prospect haul he gets traded for while costing a likely 2nd round pick. Assuming the package received for him is more valuable than the 2nd round pick (which it better be) then you’ve got a net positive.
Deal him now, pay his salary to get a better package.
The team receiving him gets 2 months of free Josh Willingham, plus 2 draft picks. That’s probably worth a pair of B prospects.
Sign him for like, 2/16 with a 3rd year club option for 9 million or so.
The A’s essentially end up with two B prospects plus 2012-2014 of Josh Willingham for the $~2MM left on Willingham’s contract and a 2nd round pick, plus the price of his contract.
I have no evidence for this, but I think trading him and re-signing him are mutually exclusive.
I can’t remember a player getting traded midseason and coming back the next year, although if anyone were to do it, it might be Willingham since he’s already expressed the desire to return.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
Rickey did it with us
We traded him to Toronto for top prospect Steve Karsay (who just couldn’t stay healthy) and then resigned him in the offseason.
by guy incognito on Jul 23, 2011 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Good example,
although that’s a little while ago and it’s still just one example, so I’m still skeptical.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
"Expressed desire to return"
Absolutely meaningless. You trying to tell me he’s going to sign with us over a team with a stadium built in the last 15 years? Not happening. Saying that just means he doesn’t hate the front office or anything, or is looking for a cheap pop in his own personal fanbase.
Uh, I'm not trying to tell you that.
He was. I don’t know how you take the phrase “I could see myself in Oakland for a long time” and turn it into “I don’t really like Oakland and don’t intend on staying here, I just don’t hate the front office and am looking for a cheap pop (a what?) in my personal fanbase.”
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on Jul 24, 2011 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
2012 Financially
I have the A’s at a net $5 million decrease in payroll as it stands now. (NOTE: I’m currently travelling for work and this didn’t take me that long).
**Dallas Braden makes $3.35 this year, and I have no idea what he’ll make next year.
SALARY COMING OFF BOOKS
DeJesus -6
Willingham -6
Crisp -5.25
Matsui -4.25
Jackson -3.20
Harden -1.50
SALARY INCREASES
Balfour +.25
Suzuki +1.6
Sweeney (2nd year arb makes 1.4 this year, maybe makes 2.25 next?) +.85
Breslow (2nd year arb makes 1.4 this year, maybe makes 2 next?) +.6
Anderson +2
Ziegler (2nd year arb makes 1.25 this year, maybe makes 2.25 next?) +1
McCarthy (3rd year arb, makes 1 this year, maybe makes 3 next?) +2
Cahill +3
Devine (2nd year arb makes .55 this year, maybe makes 2 next?) +1.5
Wuertz +.45
Bailey and Gio are both first time arb-eligible. Huston Street made 3.3 his first arb year, so Bailey gets about 4? Gio gets 6?
So the A’s lose $5M in payroll, but that leaves 6 empty roster spots. Powell is arb eligible, but he may get non-tendered in favor of Recker/Donaldson. Barton is also arb-eligible, but how much is he gonna make? If my arbitration predictions are accurate, and the A’s fill the 6 empty roster slots with league minimum guys, that leaves the 2012 opening day payroll at about $63MM as it stands right now.
They can probably afford to dish out a 2 year contract for Willingham, or a 1 year deal for JD Drew or something.
Also, it would be nice to deal Breslow and Wuertz right now.
I’d rather not pay them the combined almost $6M they’ll be making next year.
You alluded to thinking the A's could set themselves up to compete in 2012
I was curious what you feel that would look like / entail…?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but...
The A’s very well COULD trade Willingham. A lot of fans are saying he’s not that great of a hitter. In reality, there are several teams looking for a offensive piece like Willingham to put in a lineup that will give him protection. He would be a dangerous hitter sandwiched inbetween two legitimate power hitters. But in Oakland he is the SOLE power on the team since Matsui is so hit and miss. His name has come up a lot on the trade rumors, so as teams push for their respective divisions it’s probably a good idea to start getting used to the idea of Willingham in something other than the green and gold.
-Rmac-
Coco And Willingham
Are the names which have been thrown out the most as trade bait. By trading them, aren’t we losing two guys who are better than most of our other hitters. Crisp is a catalyst, and Weeks still has some things to learn about being a good baserunner and stealing bases. Willingham is our only real power threat.
We ned to establish some continuity in this lineup.
Alone here
I might be alone here on saying this, but I wouldn’t mind having the majority of the players come back for a second go next year including ddj, coco, willingham and matsui. I think with some better preparation in the spring with a non bobo coaching staff, the fundamentals can all be hammered out. After the yankees series, the offense is producing at the level I was expecting, which is in the range of 3-5 runs a game, which is good enough to win most ball games.
With a whole year of jemile, his moxie has brought some much needed life to the offense. I’ve always pondered if sogard could be potentially like pedroia, most likely not, but he’s very underrated imo.
I'd say no to Matsui, who I really think is close to done in general
but your point is well taken — this team didn’t look as bad on paper as it did in the field. Add (as a wild example) Prince Fielder at 1B to that mix and suddenly you could give it a whirl with that OF.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You're not alone
I’d like to see them sign Willingham and Coco for 2-3 year deals. DDJ and Matsui on the
other hand, can be let go. That way, there are less holes to fill for next year. A right fielder
with power, maybe Swisher if he becomes a FA. A real first baseman like Carlos Pena,
who can field and hit for power, even though a low BA.
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