Open Thread: This Week In Review/The State of the A's
by baseballgirl on Jun 22, 2011 8:42 AM PDT
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PrintIf I told you at the beginning of the season that the A's would be 34-40 in late June, six games under .500, you might be disappointed. But had I told you that a mere week ago, the A's were 28-40, on the heels of the ten-game losing streak that finally saw the end of Bob Geren, I'd daresay you'd be excited--maybe even ecstatic--about this last week of play.
For many of us, it's the most we've felt for the team all year. Finally, finally, the A's are showing some spark; they even have a "thing" that's uniquely theirs; the team is marked by gold jerseys instead of terrible offense, defense, and starting pitching injuries.
Mark Ellis will return to the team today; no one has any idea if he will play or where he will play, but I hope it's safe to say that Jemile Weeks will be a part of the lineup first. Daric Barton is on his way to Triple-A, showing a lot of class on the way out. It is my sincere hope that he can rediscover his power stroke and be back at first base soon.
The AL West is an interesting story this year; had the Astros hung on to the game last night, the A's would have found themselves a mere 4.5 games out of first place. As it currently stands, they are only 5.5 games out, 1.5 games out of third and 3.5 games out of second. Who knew?
In the A's last six games, Outman has two wins, Gio, Cahill, Godfrey have one each, and Ziegler even stole one for the bullpen. Gio will try to collect another win tonight as he faces off against R.A. Dickey and the maddening knuckleball. We're looking for the gold jerseys again, and in this sport, I would be surprised not to see them out there. Willingham will not yet be ready for today's game, so I imagine Matsui will be in the outfield again.
So the real question; is the AL West still winnable? Can the A's and their lack of power really compete with Texas? Even though the A's are winning, are they playing that well? What has been the difference in this week compared to two weeks ago, and what needs to happen for the A's to compete in the second half? But more importantly, can the A's run the streak to seven games in a row?
Find out tonight. Game thread up at 3:30PM.
Current Series
Athletics lead the series 1-0
| Tue 06/21 | WP: Josh Outman (3 - 1) SV: Grant Balfour LP: Dillon Gee (7 - 1) |
7 - 3 win |
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Oakland Athletics Wednesday, Jun 22, 2011, 4:10 PM PDT Mostly cloudy,rain. Winds blowing in from right field at 5-10 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 75. |
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| Thu 06/23 | 10:10 AM PDT | |
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Comments
Everything's coming up Milhouse!
Sorry for the repost, was writing this as the new thread came up. Anyway, with McCarthy set to be back around the All-Star break, and Ross on a similar trajectory, help is on the way for the starting staff as well, not that Moscoso and Outman have shown a lot of need to be helped. If they keep it up, we might have another trade piece to package with Ellis.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
THRILLHOUSE
THRILLHO
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
5.5 games out
I am very satisfied being right around 5 games back, which matters more than being under .500 really. Let’s hope we can keep this streak going here. I really think the division is winnable.
M Go Blue
Seattle could have been in first place had they hung on to a 5-1 lead with 2 outs in the 9th
and the Astros won, but neither happened.
I’m happy Barton and Kouzmanoff are in Sacramento and Ellis is on the bench. Other than the pitchers coming back I’d like to see Carter in the lineup, either at 1B or DH, and I’d like to see them get at least one All-Star level player for 2011.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
Now that the Barton situation is handled
What will the A’s do about Suzuki? Talk about a slump…
I miss Eric Plunk
They aren't going to do much.
Unlike Barton, he’s getting paid. He’ll have a lot of rope before they throw significantly more time to someone like Powell or Recker.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
He is an auto-out at the plate
and can’t throw runners out to save himself.
He needs to be on the bench for a few games.
or have another kid
Can he adopt?
Drink what you know, drink regularly rather than in binges, avoid needlessly exotic booze, and leave the table while you can still stand.
I am afraid you are correct. He has looked lost at the plate for a few seasons now
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
His lack of plate discipline confuzzles me
Here’s a catcher who helps pitchers exploit a lack of plate discipline and who has watched countless bad balls from the hands of his own pitchers as well as from the opposition. Yet ahead 2-0 in the count against Gee, he golfs at a ball at or below the knees to hit his patented lazy fly ball to CF. I don’t really get it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think they probably don't
I wonder why they don’t benefit from all the time catching their own pitchers, but they don’t seem to.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, I'm sure they try to.
Just like every batter. But…trying and doing is pretty different. Hell, look at Pierzynski. He swings at 40% of out-of-the-zone pitches or something like that.
I know. Wouldn't you intuitively think that
catchers would have better pitch recognition and be harder to “set up” than other hitters? It isn’t true, but you’d think it was!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hmm.
Oooh, that’s interesting. They see so many sliders, and can catch so many sliders…it does make sense.
I don't notice it being particularly true, though
I just think it SHOULD be!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Cool -- go for it!
Maybe one reason catchers don’t show that kind of better hitting skills is that because it’s such a defensive position, worse hitters aren’t weeded out. You know, show Bobby Crosby 1,000,000 sliders and he’ll still flail at the last one because he’s…Bobby Crosby. That’s my only suggested explanation for why it wouldn’t be evidenced, because to my intuition a catcher should have a slight advantage.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Looking from a very different view, though.
And slightly more time to react, too. Not sure it would translate.
Another thought: If the umpire was an experienced catcher, would he call a better strike zone?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Hmm, just hashing this out roughly.
Compare all players to their positional adjustments, and see if catchers are relatively more OBP-heavy than others?
I love you.
Don’t understand you, but I love you.
Losing this team would be a huge failure for this city and an affront to Oakland’s great sports legacy.
I don't know --
if, say, a catcher were better equipped to anticipate pitching patterns, that might show up in getting more hits. Or in getting more hitters counts, which would result in more hits (unless, like Suzuki, you used 3-1 counts to hit lazy fly balls). It’s hard to say how it would show up statistically.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hmm.
This is true. My first thought was to use O-Swing%, but catchers are worse hitters, and they wouldn’t get the same kinds of pitches as, say, Jose Bautista. This might be more complicated than I thought.
That's what I fear
It’s a cool idea to explore; I’m just not sure how you’d do it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'll sit on Flashfire and see if I hear any desperate screaming.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
A batter has to be able to see the spin on a pitch
As a catcher you know what’s coming so that isn’t an issue.
And every once in a while you see a catcher get “fooled” because he and the pitcher got their signs mixed up.
Yes, but they see about 6x as many pitches each game than position players do.
That alone should help at least a LITTLE.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That is correct.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
thats just about all catchers
Can’t hit. The good thing is Melvin plays him way down in the order where he belongs.
Friendly Reminder:
Thanks to the lowered expectations of catchers and hitters in general this year, Suzuki is currently leading the position players in WAR.
"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle
No.
AJ is a better hitter, and Zooks is a better defender.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Both those are arguable.
Pierzynski never really goes over 100 OPS+ and UZR catcher defense is still in its infancy. My point is that they both put up similar WARs at their same ages.
AJ can't throw out a baserunner to save his life
and hasn’t been able to for a long time. Suzuki is a lot better at that than he is, and I’m more than willing to trust his superior range with my eyes.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
AJ is also one of the very worst at handling balls in the dirt,
or sometimes not even in the dirt. He’s truly an awful receiver. (And human being)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Onion loves to make fun of AJ.
All NSFW:
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/video/everyone-in-baseball-suspect-in-attempted-murder-o,19630/
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/video/pierzynski-missing-last-seen-entering-hospitals-tr,19632/
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/video/several-more-suspects-arrested-for-trying-to-kill,19631/
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
AthleticsNation: Mediocrer than YOU are!
by LoneStranger on Jun 22, 2011 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Weeks nearly has caught him after 13 games.
Your point: unimpressive. Being the best player on a team of poo is meaningless.
If a catcher with a .220 batting average is "average", then what?
What I’d do: Move Powell. As long as Landon Powell is on the team and cannot be a daily catcher, he’s blocking Suzuki’s potential successor from getting a major league chance, and while Powell could be sent down, at this point it wouldn’t be fair to him.
So move Powell, if possible, for a low-level prospect, and bring up Recker (who deserves first dibs because of the way he’s hit AAA pitching).
Or....
Start playing Powell every other game, or three or four games in a row, and see what he can do.
i think mattel was saying that if play powell everyday that he'd get hurt. he wasn't wishing for anyone to get hurt.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
If Powell can't play every day, or three or four days in a row...
Then he can only be a back-up, and the A’s can’t move forward with him on the team.
It’s possible Geren destroyed Suzuki by over-playing him. Or that Suzuki simply isn’t a good enough hitter to survive on a team built around mediocre hitters. In any case, you don’t trade him without a major league catcher at the ready - which you can’t have unless you trade for one, or unless you bring one up and break him in. Which is why Powell should be the one to go.
i think we need to figure out if recker or donaldson can play. powell has major weaknesses for a guy eating a roster spot.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
He ate that too?
Crap.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Is there any reason to think Donaldson or Recker can play?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
If Donaldson's defense has improved
enough to where it’s merely adequate, his bat is good enough to be a fairly good hitting catcher…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, he plays like 30 games a year and you need a backup catcher
It’s like the crappiest position to have in baseball, but Powell fills it well. Occasional pop, pitchers seem to like throwing to him, handles the bat well. I’m not sure what else one would want in a backup.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
he's using up a roster spot. at least play another position so that you're useful in the other 132 games.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
he can also play 1b
but that’s basically the backup catcher’s job.
Sit the bench except for the couple times a week the starter gets a day off
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
this team is weak everywhere. we can't waste a roster spot too.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
cuz we can have a guy as a backup catcher that can play other positions too. backup catcher doesn't need to be a full time job
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
ok powell can play first
how many backup catchers in the league can play catcher, first, and another position as well?
Babe Ruth was a catcher originally
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I read some tawdry stories to the contrary
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Carlos Delgado was a catcher originally
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by CaliforniaJag on Jun 22, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Jimmie Foxx
HOF A’s player from the 20’s/30’s. Played 1B, but spent time at 3B and C.
Few can do it well enough to be worth playing him over a true utility player
We’re not talking about Brandon Inge or Scott Hemond here.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Over 200 ABs in 2010 and 2011 Powell has been about 10-15% worse at hitting than Suzuki
This also doesn’t factor in the huge difference in baserunning ability.
Now maybe if Powell was given the starting job he would hit better, but is that likely?
"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle
three games is probably tops for powell
maybe even two. he needs to get into better shape
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's a little late in the game
to expect him to join Jenny Craig and drop 35 lbs.
I think he’s an excellent backup catcher. He just isn’t physically able to start.
My point, as danmerqury has echoed...
is that the player that is league-average at his position is not the problem on a team with plenty of below-average postion players. Don’t get me wrong, Suzuki is not a great hitter and can be difficult to watch at times, but upgrading our catcher situation would be really expensive since there are only eight catchers that have provided more value to their team so far this year.
"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle
What might be worthwhile is to acquire a decent catcher under the radar,
in order to turn around and deal Suzuki (e.g., to BOS for a deal including Lars Anderson, who is way blocked by A. Gonzalez). But that’s no easy feat.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of course,
however, it seems like Melvin, et al, has been good so far at getting every position to hit more by moving them in the order, swapping players, or Barton’ing them and Suzuki is the next lowest on the totem pole of production.
I miss Eric Plunk
Geren destroyed zooks.
He needs to sit 3 days a week.
Powell needs to able to play more consistently
sundays, getaways games and when trevor pitches should all be reserved for powell.
by gratefuldude on Jun 22, 2011 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
that's too simplistic.
Suzuki should usually start against LHP, also, as he hits LHP better than RHP, and Powell is the reverse (his great HR the other day notwithstanding).
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Jun 22, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I always thought Suzuki had a reverse platoon split?
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
A's 2.0
I am optimistic about the reboot, and this feels very much like a different team all together from what we started this season with. We called for an overhaul, and it started with a big bold move from Billy, firing his best friend, followed by Kouz and now Barton. Many positives to get excited about with Weeks, Matsui hitting better, some of our stronger pitchers coming back. Our bullpen has been great and the overall feeling from the play on the field seems to point to guys playing more relaxed. I say we are still in it.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
We need to trade Ellis to SF
Theyre in 1st (even though they suck), so at least they have that going for them, and we might even squeeze a prospect out of that drunk Sabean.
TBH even though Ellis has tenure, he’s such a non-entity personality-wise that he wont be missed, by me anyway. I’d miss Weeks more. Weeks is “the shit” as the kids are saying on the street.
I agree that Weeks looks awesome, but I would feel much better holding on to him for a bit longer
just in case
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
The gnats need a catcher too.
Throw zooks in the pot and ask for a guy that hit some bombs.
by gratefuldude on Jun 22, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
There are no guys who hit bombs any more
They are in short supply these days.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
available I mean
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
2nd baseman with weak bat, catcher with weak bat, 1st baseman with weak bat
What part of that is appealing to anyone? lol
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
*also: I dont think that would happen
but it also wouldnt surprise me if Beane pulled a “fuckin A” trade this year, he kind of has to if we have any shot at the West title.
I expect it
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't..
I’m on the fence about whether Billy’s overall trading performance has declined since the early years, but I do think it’s clear he’s just less active. He doesn’t go chasing after the big crazy three-team or four-team trades like he used to.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It takes two to tango on a trade
I can’t help thinking that other GM’s are wary of him now.
Really?
Because they’ve watched him fleece the Rockies, and then turn around and acquire Michael Taylor?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So if he's not 100% successful
He sucks?
Recently he hijacked Sizemore for nothing.
And Cargo was a longshot to see his potential. Sometimes it works out for the other guy.
Never said he has to be 100% successful
I said other GMs probably aren’t too wary to deal with him. Like other GMs, Beane makes some good trades and some bad ones.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Michael Taylor doesn't have to do much to outperform Wallace at this point though
who’s a clunk with the glove and can’t run the bases for his life.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
i'd love to see taylor pick up the pace of extra base hits when not at altitude
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I forsee Taylor having a higher career WAR than Wallace in 5 years time.
Wallace is a DH playing in the NL, he’s not even a lock to mash like Adam Dunn was/is, and Dunn was never a big WAR guy because of defense.
Wallace will never come close to being the hitter Dunn is/was
I mean, everyone was dying to leave him in the field because of his lack of significant power.
I remember hearing that 15-20 HR power was about right, so, yeah, all Taylor really has to do is play passable OF and hit the ball more than 2 out of every 10 times…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 24, 2011 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
And if he does do a fuckin' A trade,
it won’t be the sort that makes everyone here say “yay, awesome!”. It’ll be a weird unexpected head-scratcher that doesn’t fit into the buyer or seller mode and makes everyone say “huh, WTF?”, like trading Trevor Cahill for Hunter Pence.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
That would be an interesting deal, but I bet they could get more
for Cahill than that.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
this
No point in trading him when Cahill’s one of the two genuinely healthy pitchers on this staff
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I have no idea what the values are there.
I’m just saying that if Beane makes headlines with a trade it will be by doing something totally outside the box like that, and not as an aggressive buyer or aggressive seller.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I like Pence a lot, but I think he can be had for less
I think Houston will get jumpy with him and take the first good deal they can get…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Stomper for Christina Hendricks?
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
so do i
but when saffron is on the table, you take it!
by mk on Jun 22, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I know this is a drastically unpopulat opinion around here right now, but I don't really like her all that much.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
And then while you spend eternity
in the special level of hell, you can console yourself with the knowledge that even if it didn’t turn out well, it seemed like a good trade at the time.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
The Pierzynski trade did indeed turn out quite bad for Sabean
but it didn’t look ridiculously weak based on the players’ recent pasts at the time, which what you propose certainly does.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
don't look now but........
the giants are in 2nd. 1/2 game out. YAH!!!
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
and plunging!
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Powell is taking grounders at 1B
While I think his range would have to be described as “comedic”, it would be nice just to see if his bat is worthy of playing everyday, either to get his value up so we can trade or if it stinks we ca release him and bring up Recking Ball, or better yet, if it is good, then he could even make Suzuki the one who is expendable.
That was Powell? I thought that was Brett Wallace.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought the Raiders o-line got confused about their offseason practice schedule.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
If only we could get a shiny .380 BABIP for Powell!
lol Wallace has a 0.5 WAR because he’s a DH playing the field….hey Beane, this is why Chris Carter should never step on a field unless he’s hitting.
Those are pretty extreme possibilities you throw out there...
… all based around a small sample of seeing what an out-of-shape, injury prone player can do at a position he’s rarely ever played.
Oakland Athletics * St. Bonaventure Bonnies * Green Bay Packers * Buffalo Sabres * New York Knicks
by RyanFromBonas on Jun 22, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, if we play him everyday and he gets hurt, then its Recker time!
A lot of good can come out of playing Powell more often, and if he stinks, then we can cut him altogether. Its just time to find out what we have. He hasn’t been hurt in a long time actually….maybe he’s over it?
You don't get over multiple reconstructive knee surgeries
especially with all of the weight he carries (I shudder to think what he will weigh after he retires.) If he was given a full-time job, it would only be a matter of time before he broke.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
This has been fun
The past week has definitely been fun again. I will always root for the A’s and try to watch as many games as I can, but the last month watching became more difficult then its been in awhile, and I just didn’t see much hope of a turnaround. Now, all of a sudden, with Weeks and Sizemore in the lineup, Matsui turning it around, more confidence in the Manager, its a whole different outlook. and I’m having a lot more fun with the season. That said, I think that certain players and positions are doing better, but overall the A’s are still making stupid errors, having base running mistakes, and not playing great baseball – but they’re getting the wins and with that I have to hope that as they work some of the other issues out that they will be that much better – and with this Division right now – anything can happen!
This week has also been awesome in the context of the Giants hysteria in NorCal over the last 8 months. I got to teach my 2 year-old smack talking skills in teaching his Giants fan Grandparents and Giants fan pre-school teacher how to sweep while he was saying "Let’s Go Oakland!’ I walked through my office Monday morning, where my two main bosses are Giants fans, with my broom. And then, got to go in this morning and ask my boss how a pitcher can give up 8 runs in 1/3 of an inning.
Yeah, been a good week!
So...I've been kinda out of it, but...GOLD ALTS, huh???
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. —Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
PAM! WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not back :)
Coupla weeks.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. —Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
maybe the guys name is ESPN?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Anyway, I pointed out that I liked the new jersey. Mark liked it as well. Our producer, Jason Soderberg, made a great point that his 7-year-old son definitely liked it.
Boom! 2 1/2 men like our jerseys!
Hot damn!
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
PAM PAM PAM PAM, PAM PAM PAM PAM.
Lovely Pam, wonderful Pam (PAM PAM PAM).
by LoneStranger on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Pam!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I think we should take credit for this.
Remember, even before the new unis were announced, our mantra: GOLD ALTS = WORLD SERIES….
GOLD ALTS = WINNING STREAK is close enough.
by whiteshoes40 on Jun 22, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Pam!
We’re almost back to 500. You missed the 10-game losing streak, but you’re back in time to catch the second half of the 10-game winning streak.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Yeah, me too.
I was out last night. Is there a link to a story or something?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
susanslusser Susan Slusser
Before the game, knowing that he might get optioned out, Barton told The Chronicle, "I decided my own fate." #Athletics
Most people have been thinking that was a classy move.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, it's more truthiness than classiness...
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
.
Obviously, it’s not something I want to do. But when I went back in ‘09, I put a lot less pressure on myself and it let me get back to finding myself. I look at baseball in a simple way – if somebody’s playing better than me, then put them out there. My job is to produce, and I’m not doing that…they’ve given me every opportunity in the world and I’m thankful for it.
Here's what I want to hear out of Barton...
“It’s time for me to go back to the drawing board, starting with dietary habits, proceeding to mental and physical training, then to minor tweaks of my swing. I want to come back with more pop in my bat and more fire in my belly. I want to come back in the middle of a pennant race and be a God%amn hero and make opposing pitchers cry.”
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Is there something wron gwith ihs dietary habits and mental/physical training that we don't know about?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
At least he aknowledged that he needs to produce.
Instead of being a vegetable.
Aren't vegetables produce?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Produce includes fruits too.
My pun still stands.
nobody ever accused barton of
being too fruity
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
He did hit his melon pretty hard once
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks.
I agree: that is classy. Maybe just cliche talk, but at least they’re good cliches.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Not like Kouz
who was “surprised” he got sent down. Come on.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Welcome back Ellis?
There is a simple fact here: Weeks is, right now, and probably for the next decade, their best position player. Period. So I would actually hate to see Ellis eat into any of Week’s playing time at second base.
I like Ellis, always have, he’s an excellent fielder and used to be a decent singles hitter. But not anymore (obviously). I would say that he shouldn’t be taking up a roster spot, if he can only play one position, isn’t useful as a pinch hitter or as a pinch runner, and can’t hit worth a lick. But Sizemore is worse imo. Sizemore is an abysmal fielder, and is a career .220 hitter. And isn’t particularly young. So I’m not sure why he is on the roster either.
If you're calling Weeks our best position player over the next decade after 40 PAs, then Sizemore is Barry Bonds or something.
.343/.425/.486
Depends on if it's a commentary on the state of our farm system or not.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
agreed
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Well I find it very mature.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I would venture to say he is the spark plug we needed
pesky at bat and equally on base, but still needs work with the leather
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Absolutely
I was kidding entirely, but I do really enjoy watching him play…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
But Dan, he said "Period".
That means end of discussion, and you aren’t allowed to question it anymore.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
by iglew on Jun 22, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh. I thought it meant he had cramps.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
QOTM
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm, now that you mention it,
That does make a lot more sense.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It's not the end of a discussion til we get a
BOTTOM LINE
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
what's the takeaway?
what are our action items?
and the dreaded synergy.
Weeks might be the best player on the team and the best prospect in the system, but that's
more a commentary on the state of the team and state of the system.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
sizemore had less than 1/3 season last year
and less than 1/5 of a season this year. you can’t say he is a CAREER 220 hitter.
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
He has been VERY good in AAA
298/378/472 last year
He just hasn’t been able to show it in a SSS of MLB at bats – yet :)
Tigers gave up on him WAY too soon.
BB showed his brilliance again with this trade
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
stop bragging
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
aww shucks
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Beane seems to be one step ahead of the other GM's quite often
Getting players he knows other GMs want and trading them for a tidy profit.
Consider trading Willingham?
I think we could get similar from Michael Taylor at this point
absolutely not
when healthy I love his bat. Teams such as ours are clamoring for offense, let’s not give it away.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
No, if Billy pulls off a big trade, it would likely involve our pitching, either starting or bullpen
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Type A free agent
Willingham most likely be a type A free agent so he is worth keeping and offering arbitration to.
This is literally the only reason why I wouldnt trade him
but I’d definitely trade for Carlos Beltran, who is also a type A iirc
Beltran puts up the numbers
Another type A free agent that will cost a good prospect. DeJesus is the guy that should be traded first. A type B free agent who is another Sweeney.
I'd like to re-sign/extend DeJesus
Yes, he has underperformed, but that’s also why he’ll be affordable and he’s a good player at a position that is about to become understaffed.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't see him as much more than a platoon player.
I wouldn’t spend FA dollars on him.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
He wasn't until he came to OAK.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jun 22, 2011 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Before 2011 he averaged 3.0 WAR per 600 PA.
That’s adequate but nothing to spend big money on.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
we won't have to
2/$10-12M probably gets it done.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
That's a lot for a below average player
Beane’s pretty good at getting those guys off the scrap heap
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you seen the FA class in the OF?
Not pretty
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
DeJesus is pretty, but he isn't very good, and just because
everyone else sucks doesn’t mean that we have to sign him. True, the system is devoid of prospects, but there’s always a trade. For example I hear Michael Bourn and Hunter Pence are on the block. Matt Kemp is a possibility.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Yesplz on the latter two
Bourn… meh.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Matt Kemp is going to take waaaaaaay more than we have to offer
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
What they said
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
really? Sucks?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that's a reasonable description
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
he hasn't embarrassed himself
in LF… looks funny when he runs (reminds me of ron cey) but he has been adequate.
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sticking with sucks
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
0.2 WAR, 718 OPS, worst defense imaginable?
Sounds like a big ol pile of suck to me. Talk about AN hype, you guys act like he’s good. He’s not, really. He would be a nice DH but in LF, he sucks.
How can you guys be all about numbers, then ignore them when theyre slapping you in the face every single day?
Or is it only injury-riddled prospects that you guys like analyzing numbers of?
I give up.
"You guys act like he’s good. He’s not, really."
Except he is and he’s had a rough first half, especially with the soreness in the tendon and the higher strikeouts.
But he’s still a pretty good player whether you accept that or not.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
He's a fine DH
He’s getting Chris Cartered out there right now, and Godzilla woke up so there’s no room at DH now.
LF defense = kind of important. He’s murdering us out there.
Matsui is not going to be a full-time LF
So let’s stop that thought right now.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
huh?
I never once said that. I said Willingham would be a passable DH, but we cant do that bc thats Matsui’s spot.
I just haven't seen this
He isn’t great in the field, that’s true. But, I really haven’t noticed his play in the field killing the team. There have been occasions, but that happens unfortunately. When I think of bad errors by this team that have hurt – his don’t come quick to mind – usually I think of the pitcher’s throwing errors that have really hurt. I know that Willingham’s reputation is that he is bad – and he definitely isn’t good – but “murdering us” – I just don’t see it.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Infield defense is what's murdered them, not Willingham in LF
The ratio of bad plays on the infield compared to anything Willingham’s done out there is skewed far toward one side.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
That's because there are 4 IF and only 1 of him
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure, but that is what's murdered them more
And notice that’s where the A’s have made most of the changes first.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
If we're talking about who's the most terrible it's
a sign that everyone in the discussion is terrible
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's really more PL78 picking someone out to play the blame game with and overexaggerating as usual
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I agree with him. It sounds like you're reacting
to the messenger as much as the message
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you WC.
Some posters here will never ever agree with anything I say out of spite or whatever, even when I use facts and stats to support my argument. Its mostly by the immature sect, but annoying nonetheless.
Like, I try to put my points across and no matter what, they get shot down by the same 5 posters. They have it in for me, true, but luckily I dont really give a shit.
its not people out to get you, its people not agreeing with you based on their own facts.
the people who disagree are doing so based on career stats, while your trying to make an argument based on 64 games.
64 games or entire career, pick
neither of them are particularly good. at his very best he’s a solid hitter/crappy defender. he doesnt deserve to be defended like he’s Barry Bonds on here, AN should know better… and yes, 64 games is fine to judge a veteran player off of.
Have people not argued "he's our best run producer!"
He is actually very crap. Mostly because of his injuries, agreed with that, but we cant afford to stash him and wait to get healthy, especially when the Braves are fawning over him.
Lets go grab a few of Wren’s prospects for him and call it a day.
again, i dont have a problem with that as long as...
we have a replacement. and we dont. again im asking, WHO will replace willingham in left field and provide the offense we need in the middle of the order?
I'm not against making a deal if there's a good one to be made
But you’re hoping that the Braves are trading for a guy they expect to perform better, but they’re not going to pay for what they’re hoping he does. They want to buy low.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
no one is saying hes barry bonds. this whole time, all ive said is replace him if you have someone on the roster than can replace his numbers
and there is NO ONE on the roster that can replace his numbers. and theres probably no one we can get in a trade for him that will replace those numbers, either.
WAR, UZR, i dont care about that.
sweeney is NOT an RBI guy. hell hit a shit ton of singles, but he will not replace willingham’s RBI.
as far as taylor, maybe he will, maybe he wont. its not worth trying to find out in the pennant race. if the team was giving up, then do it. but if your playing to win, its not a good move.
RBI, i don't care about that
Willingham is NOT a good player. He’ll hit an occasional homer but he will not replace Sweeney’s singles and defense
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Willingham has a career .362 OBP
He’s not just some “occasional HR” guy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
plus.... look at his
BA with RISP. not sure what it is now but about 10days ago it was about 350.
not really worried about average without runners on. we don’t have people to hit and to bring him around anyway
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
And....congratulations, PL78!
You’re the new IP!
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll bite
They have it in for me, true, but luckily I dont really give a shit.
Then why bitch about it so much and threaten about leaving AN repeatedly?
If you don’t want it to be personal and wish to take the high road on this, then stop baiting this gang of five nor reacting to their counter-arguments with aggression.
I like reading what you have to provide as much as I like reading what Flash, dan, DFA, PT, or mike have to provide.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
You arent guessing very well with those posters
but I never threatened to leave. saying “I give up” means a lot of things.
Boston.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Journey.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Kansas.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Styx.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Asia
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Europe
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Creedence.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Little River Band
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Spinal Tap
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
ha! "Nobody knows who they were....
or what they were doing there…."
Reminds me of this discussion….:)
i really dont remember a certain time when i though "wow willingham, that play cost us"
i DO remember thinking that about barton, crisp, kouz, penny, suzuki, brett anderson, moscoso, mccarthy, fuentes, laroche, rosales, and sizemore.
so i REALLY dont think willingham is the problem in LF.
I remember lots of balls he let fall in front of him and the
double in the SF series that went over his head
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
How about this one, where he let Youkilis score in Boston
In this pic, Willingham already has the ball in his glove and Youkilis is like 2 steps away from rounding third.
He just flipped it back into second base. The play right before that, he fucking jaked it on a ball that Youkilis hit into the corner and that’s what gave him the double in the first place.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
he's, um...he's not a good LFer.
Based on the VERY sss on last night, it’s unfortunate that Matsui’s knees are bad.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I prefer an adequate sample size.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
TWSS
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
It's what *I* say all the time,
and LB knows it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I was almost as pissed off as you were after that bullshit.
In retrospect, I would guess that the general malaise hanging over the club at that time contributed to him playing like a moody schoolchild that day rather than like the slugging outfielder on a pennant contender.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe. My impression, though,
was that he was being very (and overly) hesitant/conservative playing in Fenway for the first time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Surprising he's never played there before
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
He really did play it poorly,
but it’s also one of the hardest parks to play, especially if you’ve never done it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It could be one of the easiest because
LF is so small there, but I can see how it could take getting used to.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
What's hard is to make good decisions
It’s a plus if you have bad range because there’s less area to cover, but there are a lot of unique caroms and bounces, and things like “off the wall singles”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Speaking of "hard to make good decisions"?
He seemed to have difficulty with that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I saw that as, he was in a regular LF position, and a single
scores a run. Anywhere else but Fenway when he gets a hit he is throwing it to second base. Brain fart maybe.
by theblackpearl on Jun 22, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Not in that specific situation, I don't think so.
Seeing the runner in front of you, fielding a ball hit in front of you, it doesn’t matter what park you’re in.
The only time it would have an affect would be playing balls hit off the wall.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
My thinking is that he didn't realize
how shallow he caught the ball. In most parks, you’re a lot farther from the plate when you field a ball halfway between the infield and the wall.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He'd been standing there all game
You don’t think he realized he was closer?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
My guess (and I have no way of knowing)
is that the thousands of times in his career that he has fielded a similar hit, he has not had a great chance to throw out the runner, and he played it accordingly.
I really don’t know, though. Maybe he just didn’t care because DeJesus smiles too much.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
plus he's looking at the ball, not the runner. his fellow players are telling him where to throw it.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
That's because he is so small and seems to have only one leg and one arm, both of them very short
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Then perhaps he should go to the Minute Clinic
that’s being advertised behind him. They’re great with minute people.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't accept it either. He's about as good as Cust, which at his
best is useful, and this year is terrible.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
he is better than cust
though he has had much more play there than cust. he also has a MUCH better arm. cust was voted as the 4th WORST outfield arm by players a couple of years ago
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
No, he is not better than Cust.
They are in fact, about even as hitters. If Willingham was a strict DH he’d be a little more valuable, but its about even.
so youd rather get rid of our only guy with 10 HR and 40 RBI and replace him with an unproven rookie who has yet to have a full productive year in our system.
that sounds like white flag shit.
.321 wOBA
Some players that have been better hitters this year:
Alberto Callaspo
Michael Brantley
Yadier Molina
Jamey Carroll
and my favorite,
Jeff Francoeur
Head Editor of JaguarsBlog
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by CaliforniaJag on Jun 22, 2011 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
i think they were hoping 20hr and 85 RBIs
if i remember right. he’s on track… achillles not withstanding
by heartstopper on Jun 22, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
been stuck on 10hr and 40rbi for the last two weeks
he gets pitched the exact same way nearly every at bat. fast ball in, away, and then a breaking ball that he swings and misses.
by DJAX4Heisman on Jun 22, 2011 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because Willingham is terrible and has trade value. You
presumably get something back if you trade him
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
thats not the point, the point is taylor isnt a good replacement at this point in a pennant race
jemile weeks spoiled us. not every prospect is gonna come up and hit like weeks has.
Whoever replaces Willingham doesn't have to be as
good as Weeks has been, they just have to be better than Willingham is going to be, and that’s not a very high bar
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not RIGHT now
he’s hurt and in a slump. he had a great week at the end of May but wasnt able to sustain that
by DJAX4Heisman on Jun 22, 2011 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we're going by his performance to date, I
think he’s been an average hitter and a terrible fielder — making him a bad player overall.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
average hitter for the rest of the league. for the a's, hes their best run producer.
argue all we want, front office is smart enough to not trade our best RBI guy with no one ready to instantly step up and replace him.
Whether they do or don't is a different question
If they do trade him for something worth more than 2 draft picks I’d be pretty happy
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
if we had someone step up and actually ABLE to replace him, i wouldnt mind it.
thats the whole reason i dont want them to trade willingham – there is NO ONE to replace him on the roster right now.
Willingham projects as something
like a 1 WAR player the rest of the way. I see no reason why DeJesus can’t match that.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Wait, where are you seeing that?
ZiPS has him for a 118 wRC+ the rest of the way. No way is that 1 WAR.
Well it can be 0 WAR if your defense
is bad enough — see Carlos Quentin 2010. But I was estimating it at 2 WAR or 1 WAR for half a season
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Ah, I see.
I thought you said he was projected to be a 1 WAR player for the second hald, which would be 0.5 WAR.
That said, Quentin was a -24 that year. I see Willingham at a -10, maximum, and more probably a -5 or -7.
Yes it's hard to be as bad as Quentin
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
ugh STOP comparing him to the rest of the team
the rest of the team sucks but arent as replaceable as him.
I dont care about RBIs, I care about players getting on base.
Who still gives a crap about a stat that relies entirely on other players being good?
SLG matters, too, in addition to OBA
RBI is, as you say, not a useful stat (q.v. Emil Brown).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Who's been driving in runs the last
few games when Willingham’s been out?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
he's still fouling balls off late.
good when staying alive with 2 strikes… bad when trying to drive a fastball…
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's about the same
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
DeJesus' numbers are padded by a few awesome games
Other than that, he’s been pedestrian. Plus, Melvin has it out for him or something and doesn’t like to play him.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Melvin's preferences are a different issue
I wasn’t arguing that DeJesus has been good. In fact he’s been terrible. I’m arguing that he projects about the same as Willingham, which is below average.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
You'd say Willingham has more upside though, right?
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I think they both probably have 4 WAR
upside in a great season for them
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
So you're saying he walks a lot?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
So you want to get Beltran to solve the "our players get hurt all the time" problem?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'd like to get him and Reyes to solve the "our position players
have no talent" problem
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Beltran is a 34-year-old with terrible knees
who’s missed the majority of the last 2 seasons. He’s got a lot of talent, but he’s getting to the point in his career when he’d start to slip anyway, and basically at any moment his knees could give out and that would be it.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
But but but he's had a great first half of 2011 and Willingham's sucked!
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Beltran is, in fact, a much more talented player than Willingham
but he’s also a huge injury risk. If a healthy roster matters to you, you shouldn’t go after Beltran.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'd roll the dice with Beltran that he wont get hurt over the next 3 months than keep limpy Willingham around.
Beltran passes the eye test and all reports are saying he hasn’t been this healthy in a while.
Well first, "hasn't been this healthy in a while" isn't saying much
The last 2 years he’s had Harden-like health. Second, is there any reason to think we could just flip Willingham for him? Sure I’d do that. Why not? By why would the Mets? Just a desperate-to-cut-payroll fire sale?
And again, your comment above was, “We can’t afford to have players hurt in a pennant race.” If you want to add, “unless they seem to be talented enough,” okay, but a 34-year-old who basically lost 2 seasons due to chronically bad knees would seem to be, according to your original criterion, “someone we can’t afford.”
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
So your solution is to avoid the risk of talented
players getting hurt by hiring untalented players?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Who would be one of the untalented players?
Because Willingham does not qualify for that list.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Willingham, DeJesus, Sweeney and Crisp
are all untalented compared to Beltran
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
For that matter so is everyone else
on the major league roster and all minor league affiliates
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Okay, but you're romanticizing Beltran
This isn’t 2008. He’s 3 years older and not the fielder he once was.
If you want someone with upside, trade for Wright.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
He's on pace to be about a 5 WAR player in 2011
There’s a lot to romaticize. Also I’d love to get Wright
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
only 2 of which we might benefit from and only this year
And he might only be 1 WAR better than a Sweeney/DDJ RF platoon.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Right we'd have to be willing to pay
for that 1 WAR. It’s only worth it if we think we’re in contention
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Then it's kind of a silly comparison to make
And Beltran is still as big an injury risk as anyone else in these discussions, if not more.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Yes but we only want him for 2011
We’re not signing him to a 7 year deal or anything
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't offering a "solution" I was questioning the seriousness of the argument
that Willingham is a bad option because he gets hurt all the time. It would be like saying, “Matsui is way too slow and over the hill — let’s get Giambi!”
If you’re arguing for Beltran, you’re arguing for acquiring a massive injury risk.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yes, that would be a risk I'd be willing to
assume if I thought the team was a contender, because he’d immediately be the team’s most talented player
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Probably true
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I have no problem trading away the farm.
The farm sucks
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Good thing Taylor's been a pillar of good health.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The bad defense is included in the WAR.
The numbers people who say he doesn’t suck are noting that he had 2.5 and 3.0 WAR in the previous two seasons.
And even then I don’t think those people say Willingham is really good, just that he doesn’t suck.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You're ignoring his previous numbers,
which are of course, more important than half a season.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
And, you know, I'm sure the achillies hasn't helped
Other than that, it’s more PL78 hyperbole.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
He fields better than Cust
I’m genuinely interested in anyone’s examples about Willingham’s bad fielding. Is it just the lack of speed compared to the spryness of Jackson and Sweeney?
He doesn’t seem to take bad routes to balls. I remember some iffy throwing decisions, but I don’t remember any throws to the infield missing.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
His negative defensive rating is pretty much all due to lack of range
He’s -3.8 Range Runs Above Average; -0.4 for Arm and +0.4 for errors. Whether that’s lack of speed or bad routes, it’s hard to say. I’ve watched a couple of plays where the routes are a bit bad, but I don’t get the chance to watch enough games to make a good judgement call.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
That's great to hear that it's his range
I don’t understand when people claim a player is a butcher in the field. To me, that makes me think of a dude that just swats balls down whilst attempting to catch a fly-ball.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I tend to think the term "butcher"
should be reserved for infielders where fielding grounders/ball swatting is a bit more of an issue.
That said, there’s always exceptions:
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe less bad routes and more bad "first step"?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe, I don't know.
It’s frustrating. It doesn’t seem like he has to be that bad of an outfielder, but here we are.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Hmm...
My limited impression of him is that he’s got below average speed in the field. Not Cust-slow, but not fast, either.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, FWIW
Fans Scouting Report for the last two years in Washington has his speed at 40 and 41. Not exactly blazing.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Basically, he isn't good at balls hit over his head
But there have been maybe 4 plays this year where I felt it was really noticeable. Mostly, he’s conservative but while that means not a lot of great plays it also means not a lot of mistakes. And on balls in front of him, to his left or right, he actually seems fine.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hanley Ramirez? He sucks.
So does Dan Uggla! Expendable, both of them. Always.
Willingham is hitting better than any regular on the team, and his career stats are FAR better than his current line.
Well, you gave the "Oh, Hanley's hurt" excuse but Willingham just sucks
Last of the Ninth - Photography
uhhh, Willingham is ALWAYS hurt dude
Hanley isnt. plus Willingham has lost bat speed, resulting in more strike outs than usual.
I cant believe a 718 OPS having, bad defending, always injured LF is getting defended so much here!!! AN always blows my mind on stuff like this. You seriously need to wake up, we shouldnt accept or defend a player like this.
plus Willingham has lost bat speed
What?
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
K rate has skyrocketed
Either injury or getting old, probably both, and neither are what we need on this team.
If anything, it's the opposite.
Slow bat speed generally results in more contact. Worse contact, to be sure, but more of it.
Not even half a season
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
But its a veteran and a known quantity.
You don’t need giant sample scales for those guys. He simply has a ton of red flags that something is wrong with him.
Exactly, he's a known quantity
And what we know about him is that he’s been a pretty damn good hitter his entire career except for the first however many games this year.
We also know his defense isn’t great but that his bat normally makes up for the hit on defense.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
You can move Crisp, DeJesus, Sweeney, etc. Willingham’s bat is still more valuable than theirs.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Okay
Player A has:
718 OPS
Plays LF
Is the 4th worst defender
Has a long injury history
Player A isn’t a guy I want.
What do you classify as "a long injury history," then?
In terms of games missed? Affected production?
Because he’s still probably on pace for 130+ games this year and that’d be four out of his full six MLB seasons playing in 130 or more.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Aaaand if we're talking about injuries affecting his production, over those past five years...
…we’re talking about a guy that’s ranged from an OPS of .827 to .863.
I think this year has more to do with him adjusting to a new league and playing in a new set of ballparks along with a nagging achillies.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
and how valuable is that in a playoff race?
We cant afford that luxury. We need everyone healthy and hitting.
Why don't you go ahead and answer the question above about his "long injury history?"
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I did look it up
140 games is 86% of a season. Nothing wrong with that.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Last 3 years: 102, 133, 114
and he should have been on the DL a few times this year already, but he’s an Athletic and the Athletics never put their players on the DL.
Dont accuse me of cherry picking, youre the one going off his health 5 years ago LOL
No, I'm looking at the full body of evidence instead of a few dozen games
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Which I never claimed
Just that he isn’t someone who misses tons of games every season. A couple years, yes.
How many has Beltran missed lately?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
give us an example of when his defense hurt us. go ahead.
and then well provide you with examples of when his bat helped the team. he has a .988 fielding percentage on the year. thats murder? so effing what if he doesnt have the range of crisp or sweeney. thats cause hes NOT crisp or sweeney. hes willingham. his job is to hit homeruns and drive in runs, not chase down fly balls. and in oakland in the awful stadium he plays in, hes doing his job just fine.
And yeah, I'm defending a guy who's got an OPS of .830 for his career instead of flipping out over...
…half a season that’s been a struggle as not indicative of how Willingham usually is.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Holliday 2.0
Next we’re going to be hearing that Corey Brown is an MVP candidate.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Bad idea
Without Willingham, we will lose our love during game nights.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I love golllllllllld.
I would dance and be merry, life would be a ding-a-derry, if Bob Geren had a brain.
by Boonee on Jun 22, 2011 9:48 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Jai Miller
Hey, Tallahassee, FL A’s fan here. I don’t usually post or anything but I read a lot of stuff on this site. Watching the A’s play on my MLB package is now much less melancholy than it was before thanks to some new blood in the lineup. It got me thinking about some other ‘not exactly prospects’ AAA players. I realize that AAA performance doesn’t exactly translate into big league success, but what Jai Miller is doing right now is pretty impressive. Is there a particular reason we haven’t tried seeing what he can do up with the A’s this year? He may not have the friendliest profile picture on the Rivercats site, but he is hitting fairly well and is, as i’m sure you guys know, 10-10 in stolen bases. Does it have something to do with not showing other teams he can’t hit outside of AAA or something to keep a decent bit of trade value? Or is it just a forgone conclusion that it wouldn’t work. I would think we would want to reward our system for hitting well when our team hasn’t exactly been doing that.
This just popped up when a friend and I were watching Hideki Matsui playing in the outfield yesterday while Willingham is nursing that Achilles thing. Sorry if this post isn’t super suave. The regulars are pretty intelligent sounding with their questions and comments haha. Thanks in advance for responses. I’ve got some errands to run but will check back when I get back to my apartment.
You need to click the "Super Suave" setting when posting, it's right next to the Sarcasm Font
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
What about Rico Suave?
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Jun 22, 2011 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
True story: My nickname in college was "Nico Suavé"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Still?
I wish.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, you probably now look like
he looks now. I’m thinking the picture above is out of date.
Also, did they really put the accent on the e?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I'm not suré
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
who's having a soirée?
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
only after an apéritif
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
and a matinée
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
but first, to the café!
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
do we want to have the matinée there??
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
non. it will be a quick in an out because
as you know, I am a cause célèbre
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Be sure to wear your matinee armor.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
thats him??
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, no :)
It’s a Gerardo (Naranjo). Just not THAT Gerardo.
who the hell is that? lol
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
hahaha that was good
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Kinda looks like it could be Rico Suave though, huh?
After a couple decades of hard living.
I was here last week defending Miller
Saying he really seems to have turned the corner as a hitter this year…. then I see 6 of the worst abs of the year from him over the weekend. Maybe he’s just losing focus being stuck in AAA so long but whatever it is he’s looked completely lost at the plate lately.
hence, he is in AAA
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Have you seen his strikeout rate?
No way he makes contact in the majors
You won't get enough out of him to warrant trading him.
Right now, we’re expected to get ~1 WAR (solid estimate of what he can do imo) and 2 draft picks. We’d have to get that much back in value in order to make the trade worth it. I don’t think other teams value Willingham that much.
If you're out of the race you just need to beat the 2 picks though
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm assuming we're still in the race as of now.
And I still don’t think teams would give 2 draft picks worth of players for a LF that can’t really field and is an alright, but not great, hitter. If Billy gets a great offer for him, then take it (regardless if we’re still in the race or not), but I don’t think anyone will make that compelling offer.
In that case we keep him and get the picks
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
What do you think we would look like if we got a masher at DH or LF right now?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
except defense
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You ever see that big metal thing attached to the front of a bulldozer?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
qotm
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
It actually would make more sense
To move Matsui and bring up Carter -
assuming you were willing to take a huge gamble and were trying to cash in on a player who was showing some signs of life.
BTW Carter has been killing it in AAA since he came back from the DL
333/425/727 in nine games
As has been noted here before,
the draft picks are not guaranteed. The compensation pick scheme is a function of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement, which expires Dec 11, 2011. That’s after the date when arbitration must be offered, but if GMs know the compensation picks may not be extended they can easily wait until after the expiration date before signing any Type A or Type B free agents.
So far I haven’t heard any solid news about whether the new CBA is expected to renew compensation picks for free agents in some form, but in an interview leading up to the recent draft, Theo Epstein specifically referred to the uncertainty of compensation picks being gone next year.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Wouldn't it be great, Harden comes back and pitches great for a month
then Billy flips him again
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
For Patterson, Murton, Donaldson and Kouzmanoff
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Bring up Taylor & Recker, get rid of Powell, Ellis & Willingham
Willingham has a 718 OPS and is the worst LF defender not named Pierre, Braun or Ibanez. He is actually hurting this team, while Taylor may not be the answer, Carlos Beltran absolutely is.
Agree Recker deserves a look
But Willingham has been money in some pretty big situations this year… I don’t get the trade Willingham crowd.
I don't get the "trade Willingham" crowd,
but I do get the “where ’s the other .150 of OPS that we expected?” crowd
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Not even half a season
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Jun 22, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you've got this perfectly backwards
Veterans have a large body of work that establishes their talent level.
“Scouting” is much more important for the young guys.
The guy has a track record that transcends 60 games
It’s not like he’s, say, Barton, who kind of came out of nowhere with last year’s results and has unfortunately gone into the crapper again enough to be sent back to Triple-A to work on things.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
The reason I get that crowd
is that other teams seem to want him. We don’t have a whole lot of guys that other teams want.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
This is where I am. He's not good, and he has trade value.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Sample. Size.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
I absolutely agree we should try and nab Beltran from the Mets
Even if we have to take on all of the salary to avoid giving up one of our best prospects.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on Jun 22, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Let the Golden Shower continue to rain on the Mets!
by sleepingcobra on Jun 22, 2011 9:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
If it's so gross, then why do I have to pay extra?!
I mean, um…nevermind…nothing to see here. Move along.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
No showers on this road trip please.
It would suck to have to make up a game in New York or Philadelphia late in the season on a mutual off day.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
if ANY outfielder should be traded, it should be crisp or sweeney.
i could care less about sweeneys 4 hits, he has no power and hes eventually going to decline. and im tired of seeing crisp in center fielder with a noodle for an arm. surely someone would want those two.
Crisp maybe. I don't think Sweeney has much trade value.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd like to keep Crisp around
and move him to left, where his defense becomes HOF-caliber because his arm is hidden. That would require having a suitable CFer to replace him, though.
Crisp has a surprising amount of sock in his bat, if not home run power. He hits baseballs hard. Sweeney, not so much.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'm excited about the recent turn around
But let’s wait til our starters face an actual viable offense before we start thinking AL West winners
by dashman33 on Jun 22, 2011 9:59 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think they're playing well
Don’t know if they have the talent to compete in the division, but I think they’re better than a last-place team. Optimistically placing them 2nd in the division at season end.
Melvin is a huge upgrade and removing a few automatic outs in the lineup – Barton (hasn’t played much), Ellis and Kouz has helped. Suzuki is still an automatic out but at least the lineup isn’t full of them. Would still like to see Carter come up – if he can hit, a middle of the order of Willingham, Matsui and Carter actually looks decent.
by coffee roaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:17 AM PDT reply actions
Boy, a lot of "grass is always greener" on the other guy's team going on here.
If you think you’re a contender you trade your farm for MLB players.
If you think you’re out you trade your MLB players for farm pieces.
A’s are in limbo right now. Not in it, not out of it either. Kind of a stand pat situation unless a stupid good trade falls in your lap.
Ellis needs to be moved, but that’s because he’s become redundant.
You don’t trade starters who have been underperforming. That’s how you get hosed. Nor do you trade for guys that are playing over their heads.
by Mattel on Jun 22, 2011 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
All pretty much what I was wanting to say after reading all this 'let's hurry up and trade someone. It's so exciting'
Pretty sure without even checking some of the same people wanting to trade someone, anyone now so we can put more RiverCats on the club were probably certain that Matsui was completely done and he ought to have been dfa’d to make room for Carter (who at the time was still rehabbing and on the DL). Now that Willingham is ‘day-to-day’, THAT wouldn’t have been the greatest idea in the world, would it? Matsui responded pretty well to the assurances that his manager believes in him. Not setting the world on fire, but fairly reliably advancing runners, hitting productive sac flies when he ought to, etc, which is more than many in this lineup can manage.
Any actual GM who made trades as frantically as the AN crowd would have a hella short career.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Jun 22, 2011 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
This should be tonight's lineup
1B: Carter
2B: Weeks
SS: Penny
3B: Sizemore
C: Suzuki
LF: Sweeney
CF: Crisp
RF: Taylor
DH: Matsui
Bench: Recker, Rosales, Jackson, DeJesus
Ellis, Willingham, Powell are known quantities, and they arent good ones. I’d rather roll the dice with this team and see what happens….I bet it wouldn’t be as bad and may even be better.
New undervalued commodity in baseball
Extra DH!
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Taylor won't, because he'll be exhausted
from chasing all the balls hit to Carter and Weeks.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You just said, in this same thread
that Carter doesn’t belong in the field unless he’s batting…
So, what?
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 22, 2011 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesnt belong doesnt mean its not going to happen.
Is context an entirely foreign concept to you? You can’t quote someone for saying that they wish something would happen then call them out for quoting reality later. Why even post this? Its tantamount to trolling.
The f*ck?
Trolling?
I didn’t use any remarks about you personally or anything, I was just asking for clarification.
You could have stopped with the first sentence, but then you go ahead and make yourself look like an ass once again.
Well done, considering I’ve had nothing against you…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Jun 24, 2011 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
i remember when i joined this forum back in september and my first post was about my extreme dislike of jack cust.
and i remember the entire board telling me to not bring up cust because of the huge argument that it would bring.
and here i am in june defending willingham. who looks like he has become to new cust.
Just as of today
now that Barton has been sent to AAA – he was the “new Cust” before. Seems to be a rule that there always has to be one player on the team to argue about in this way. For me, just like I thought with Barton, Willingham is not performing as well as I’d like but I don’t see any replacement who will be better. I don’t understand the idea of bench or get rid of someone because they “suck” even when the people caling for that can’t point to anyone currently on the team who will perform better.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I nominate suzuki as the new cust
only with way fewer walks.
‘new cust’ is a synonym for ‘scapegoat’, right?
by MobiusKlein on Jun 22, 2011 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Drat.
then who is the ‘new cust’?
perhaps if the jesus walked more, we would have a new cust.
by MobiusKlein on Jun 22, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Why would someone like Willingham but not Cust? They seem like very similar players.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Cust's defense is worse
Plus, their OBP/SLG lines are the inverse of each other.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Is that really enough of a reason?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Cust's ISO continues to drop
Willingham’s is dropping, too, but Cust’s is plummeting.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
This year yeah
But career wise their numbers are pretty similar. .262/.362/.469 for Porky and .243/.376/.440 for Cust. It was mostly Cust’s willingness to take close pitches in RBI situations that always pissed off people, not his general hitting profile. People are just offended by not swinging in some situations. It means you’re not a “run producer”, you see.
Right
But when you’re in the clean-up spot and you’re the only guy on the team with any power, and you’re not driving in runs (and that’s your job because you’re the only guy with any power, and because no one else is driving in runs), it’s a problem.
Why isn't it everybody else's problem too? Why are you pinning the lack of RBI on one guy?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Because he's the only guy who can get the job done
Clearly, the lack of decent hitters comes back to the Front Office. Yes, if you want to bring baseball down to one size fits all, then you blame everyone else but Cust. But when you’ve got runners on base, and you strike out looking on 3-2 counts over and over again, then yeah, maybe you should be actually hitting the ball and driving in runs, particularly since you’re the only guy who can hit one out on the entire team. Maybe it’s better - and I know this is sacrilege - to take a chance and actually hit the ball in order to drive in a run. (Of course, Cust’s other problem is that usually on 3-2 counts with runners on, he would swing and miss, but that’s another tale).
One size fits all is a philosophy that has been adopted by several folks here as if it’s uncontrovertible fact. I simply don’t think it is, and I think Cust is proof of that.
Wait, so he sucks because he strikes out a lot when it's a 3-2 count?
rofl.
OK dude.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
it's not sacrilege because you disagree with the house view or my view. it's sacrilege because you disregard a mountain of data that was presented by elcroata on this very site.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
It's about interpretation of data and how that applies in a game situation
Not the data itself. My point to mikev was that the frustration with Cust came because too often he simply didn’t put the ball in play. PT came up with the conclusion that it’s better not to swing on a borderline pitch because the odds are 50-50 that you’ll get on base, whereas if you swing the odds drop. However, when you’ve got runners on base and your team is only scoring maybe a couple of runs a night, then the reward of swinging ((i.e. driving in a run) trumps the statistical idea that it’s better simply to get on base and leave the problem for the next guy (because most likely the next guy is REALLY gonna suck).
This, by the way, is the reason that I like Willingham. Sure, his overall stats aren’t that great, and he’s not the world’s most nifty outfielder (he throws well though), but when the game is on the line, he’s more likely to hit one out that anyone else on the team, so you can talk all you want about WAR, but in the end, this guy actually does win games and has the highest potential to turn a game around than anyone else on the A’s (except maybe Matsui if this resurgence is real).
So, again, you're penalizing Cust for the rest of the hitters around him being bad.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
In essence, yes
That’s because I’m not relying on the idea that one size fits all.
Look, if Geren had been smart, he might have decided that because Cust doesn’t show power often enough to be down in the order, but has a great OBP, maybe the idea would be to try to have him hit more singles, walk as much as he did, and put him at the top of the order. I know it’s counter-intuitive to have a rhino leading off, but a high OBP is a high OBP. Under those circumstances, I would have warmed up to the guy.
these are reasons to dislike people other than Cust.
It’s not his problem that the hitters around him sucked, and it’s also not his decision where to bat in the order.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
If he's a drag on the offense, it certainly is
Within the context of the A’s of 2009 and 2010, Cust wasn’t being properly utilized. A lot of players are often not properly utilized, or they never get a chance to prove themselves, or they’re put in positions where they’re more likely to fail. I think a lot of these one size fits all stats have value in terms of talking trades, or in terms of comparisons, but when a player is put into a position where he’s more likely to fail, and he fails, then …. he fails.
You might be right logically
The data just don’t show it; or if it does, it’s only a few (inconsequential) runs per year. Remember that less outs = more ABs. Even for guys that suck, they will eventually come through given more chances.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
.
However, when you’ve got runners on base and your team is only scoring maybe a couple of runs a night, then the reward of swinging ((i.e. driving in a run) trumps the statistical idea that it’s better simply to get on base and leave the problem for the next guy (because most likely the next guy is REALLY gonna suck).
this is an interesting line of thought. people have shown mathematically that it doesn’t even make sense for a hitter on the caliber of albert pujols to swing at borderline pitches in full counts.
i’d imagine that while it makes more sense to swing more at borderline pitches in low run scoring environments or if the rest of your team sucks at hitting (in the same way that bunting and stealing bases make more sense in these environments), it still comes nowhere close to the break even point as the benefits of not swinging at borderline pitches in these counts are huge and you’d still be hurting your team’s overall run production. do you have any data to back up your assertion that it does make more sense for a hitter on a team like the a’s to swing more on borderline pitches in these counts?
I''m not a statistician and wouldn't even begin to look for an answer to that question
And I’m not even sure whether statistics would back up what I say or not because in any game situation, you’re always talking about the smallest of sample sizes, i.e. what the score is, what the inning is, who is batting behind the hitter, etc. In Cust’s case in the 2009 and 2010 A’s, he was your basic power on the team. This year, for instance,, you have two guys (Matsui and Willingham) who have the power to hit homers, so emphasis will shift slightly.
So, for instance, if you have a 3-2 count on the 2011 edition of Jose Reyes, and two outs, and you have the 2011 edition of Kurt Suzuki batting behind him, and you’re one run down and it’s the bottom of the ninth and you have a runner on third, on a borderline pitch that’s been called both a strike and a ball earlier in the game, do you want Reyes to swing or not? (I’m picking an extreme case here, of course, and one that’s impossible).
Oddly enough, I completely agree that the mountain of data provided by elcroata told me that we could expect to see more run production with Matsui over Cust, however you want to phrase that.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Jun 22, 2011 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
We had the same experience
Posting on the awfulness that is Jack Cust would bring an avalanche of sabermetric stats to otherwise…. meanwhile some of these same people are after Willingham’s head ignoring the fact the guy has at least the one thing you want from a 3 or 4 hole guy…. drive in runs. I swear some people must just read box scores and look at stats and never watch the games themselves.
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry I love this place
but some of the stuff I’ve seen here is just ridiculous
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
OH, THE IRONING.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
There's a whole baseball world outside AN
just sayin
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
OMG SERIOUSLY?
DO I HAVE TO LEAVE THE BASEMENT THOUGH?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
THE SUN IS SO BRIGHT THOUGH
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Look, some of the stuff on AN is indeed ridiculous
It’s just that it so happens that on this particular issue you’re the only one being ridiculous.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The "ridiculous" comment was a bit elitist
My apologies
Sorry I’m just one of those “old” baseball guys moneyball likes ot make fun of
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
i love comments like this
every single area of study in the world has advanced in the past 100 years. not baseball though. they nailed it analytically in 1904. riiiiiight.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
by stm72 on Jun 22, 2011 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You guys can't help yourself can you?
so much for peace offerings
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
dude, i'm not picking on you. i'm just self-aware to know that a.) i don't have all the answers. b.) i can learn from others.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
you clearly don't know me
im mean yeah of course you don’t… but even on here I’ve admitted to being wrong… many times.
Let’s just part as fellow A’s fans and enjoy the game tonight
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
i'm not shocked that you fail to see your own illogic. but whatever.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
There's no illogic.
Your comment just amounted to kicking a guy when he’s down, and didn’t offer anything constructive. It could have easily been constructive. But as you say, whatever. This doesn’t need to devolve into a meta discussion.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
i specifically said i'm not picking on you. and i gave my philosophy. then you jump in with the "pretty weak" comment. and somehow i'm the bad guy? whatever dude.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I made my comment before I saw you say that you weren't picking on him
I probably wouldn’t have otherwise, though one wonders why you’d say it in the first place if you had to qualify it later.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
and it only turned into a meta discussion cuz you were disrespectful to me.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
The problem is that "driving in runs" isn't actually a skill
It basically means “hits with people on base in front of him”. It correlates somewhat with SLG, too, but getting RBIs just isn’t a hitting skill.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
This really sums it all up
If you believe that then I can understand why someone would think Cust is a good player.
I’ve been over this too many times to go into it again but I will leave it at this…… I believe good teams have players that fill different roles…. and if your role is to drive in runs then taking close pitches in RBI situations is going to have a negative impact on your team. Cust is not and had never been a run producer and it’s due as much to his approach as it is whos hitting in front of him.
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
That belief really shouldn't be a matter of faith
but of pointing to actual teams and actual players and showing that the particular players on those teams actually have this particular “RBI” skill that helps the team win.
Here, for instance, are Jack Cust’s career stats in various runners-on-base situations. I suppose if there’s any proof that he lacks the RBI skill, you could find it there. So take a look at those actual results of what the actual Jack Cust has done in actual, major-league baseball games, and tell me if you find something there that demonstrates that he doesn’t have the RBI skill, and that it’s because he’s taking close pitches in RBI situations.
Lastly, many people here who liked how Cust played for the A’s suggested he’d be an excellent lead-off or 2nd hitter, because he got on base all the time and, since he had the teams best OPS+, wOBA, etc, he should be getting more PAs than anyone else.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Jun 22, 2011 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't pull back the curtain
People hate that
Faith?
We can make this really simple
Cust drove in 56 runs for the A’s in 425 PA last year
Hammer has driven in 42 in 229 PA so fat this year
He’s only 14 shy of Cust’s entire total last year with 196 less PA…. and we all know the A’s haven’t exactly been an offensive juggernaut this year either.
One guy is a run producer and the other isn’t….. this isn’t faith this is just how it is
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
[face palm]
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
by stm72 on Jun 22, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's like you didn't read any part of his comment
;-(
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't know why I even get sucked into this
Yeah I read it… seeing anyone half way suggest Cust would make a good lead-off or #2 hitting just shows we approach the game from a totally different standpoint. Over the years I put my lineups together in a way that is consistent with what managers have done for the last century and it’s always worked out pretty well for my teams. I don’t mean any disrespect but I just can’t buy into what a lot of you are selling.
It’s best to just leave this be and focus on getting #7 tonight
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Quick questions
1) How many PAs with RISP did Cust have last year compared to Willingham this year?
2) How good was Cust overall compared to Willingham overall? That’s relevant because you’re claiming that there’s a specific RBI skill.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Naw Im done
I promised myself I wouldn’t play this game again…. im already disappointed in myself
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not really a game
I’m asking if you can provide any evidence or analysis for anything you want me to believe, or if it’s all a matter of “trust me”.
I’m not asking for much. Look at the links I found. If you won’t even do that, frankly it looks to me like you want to have your beliefs no matter what the evidence might say. In which case your beliefs don’t hold much water in my book.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I'm usually game for any back and forth
Ive just exhausted this topic far too many times to want to get all the way into it again
Especially now that Cust is in Seattle and isn’t my problem
by sactownbull on Jun 22, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, any time you want to offer some reason for me to believe your assertion
about the RBI skill I’ll be happy to read it. But I’ve been watching baseball for over 30 years myself, so I’m not just going to take your word for it, and it didn’t escape my notice that I went and found some facts about a player whom you brought into the discussion and from what I can tell you decided to ignore them and just say, “trust me” again.
Cust isn’t the issue. The issue at hand is Willingham. And if you want me to believe that Willingham has a particular RBI skill that others on the team lack, and that this skill (beyond his basic skills as a hitter, getting on base and getting XBH and such) uniquely helps the team win games, then yes, you’ll have to persuade me with more than “look at all his RBIs” (which might well be due to lots of PAs with runners on base, or to blind luck).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Willingham really has been awesome with RISP this year
.333 BA, 163 wRC+. He’s hit an amazing 74% fly balls as well.
Cust in 2010 had a 103 wRC+ compared to 160 with the bases empty.
I’m not sold that it’s going to continue this way for Willingham, and he’s not been doing this his whole career, but he has certainly done it so far in 2011.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
And that's all fair to point to
in that that’s what he’s actually done. Whether in such a SSS it indicates a skill, as opposed to just luck, is the question. And over his career, his numbers with the bases empty, and with RISP, and with a runner on 1st are basically the same.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Right, it's not a skill, but it's a notable accomplishment
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I've noticed recently on the broadcasts
that they’ve been showing % of runners on base scored in certain situations for various hitters. Is that a valid way of evaluating this, and if so, does it capture anything of significance that looking at slash lines wouldn’t?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
It's usually "driving home runner from 3B with less than two outs"
and it pretty much becomes meaningless due to SSS from the git go.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The small sample element makes sense.
It would account for some things that look good in a slash line, though (e.g., walks). I wonder if expanding it to RISP, less than two outs, but only looking at the % of runners scored would yield interesting results, and address the sample size issue.
I know it’s really hard to quantify, but I feel like there’s at least something to what sactownbull is saying. Confirmation bias and selective memory and all that, but I know when I watched Don Mattingly growing up, he inspired confidence that your RISP would be scoring shortly. He could intentionally hit baseballs high in the strike zone if a hit was called for in certain situations. I saw it happen enough to believe it was a skill.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Look at the Cust link I provide
He’s had a lot of PAs over his career, and the numbers are all over the place. He’s been terrible with runners at 1st and 2nd, but fantastic with runners at 1st and 3rd. Does he get super-distracted by that guy at 2nd? Then why is his OPS with a runner just at 2nd so much higher than 1st and 2nd, and with a runner at 3rd so much worse?
Sure looks pretty random to me.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The fact that you conveniently omit "cloudy Thursdays" in your splits
tells me I shouldn’t take anything you say seriously. Which, luckily, I haven’t for 30 years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"Driving home runner from 3B with less than two outs"
may be too small a sample size for any individual, but it’s a goodly sized sample over all of baseball. From that, we could measure if it’s a repeatable skill generally. You still would have a hard time identifying which guys have it, but you could make a case for or against it being a meaningful skill at all.
Are some guys better than others at getting a run in in an RBI situation, and is their measure of that significantly different from their skill in all plate appearances?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
It's better than raw numbers
This came up in the Mauer v. Teix MVP “debate” as a way of showing people who care about RBIs a thing or two. Teix had more RBIs, but Mauer got an RBI much more frequently when given the opportunity.
It doesn’t really mean much, but it means more than raw RBI counts. Just like you wouldn’t say Gio is better at getting strikeouts than Papelbon just because he has more of them this year.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Sorry, my comment was ambiguous
I meant “hits” as a verb, not as a noun.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
WAIT! YOU MEAN THE GAMES ARE REALLY PLAYED OUT WITH REAL PEOPLE?!!
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
on the moo
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I thought "on the moo" was some kind of new expression
meaning “seriously” or “that’s what they say.”
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
on a cow is what you mean
If you'll excuse me, all of you, I'm going to go tearily spill my heart out to my only friend, the water heater. --danmerqury
yeah, that
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
its all green cheese
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Target is Texas
The Rangers are the team to beat. If the A’s can stay within 4-5 games by the All-Star break they have a shot. PITCHING is still our strength.
I love the way the team seems to have responded to the new skipper. Just proves that if you think the boss is a turd you will perform like one. Keep the Solid Gold look going!
I for one am not surprized by this resurgence.
I have been watching A’s games all of my life, and I am 45 years old this year. My father took me to games when I was still in a stroller. I watched the entire Bob Geren train wreck and concluded 2 years ago that GEREN was a MORON. That he was holding the team back and causing a distrust and a negative vibe in the clubhouse. I railed against BOBO the CLOWN after every dumb mistake he made. Geren always left a pitcher in 3 batters too long. The game would hang in the balance and Geren always made the wrong call. I don’t believe he ever had the pulse of the team. He did not seem to push the right buttons. He was a failure.
Now enters Melvin. I am not sure how he will do in the long run, but the players have spoken with their game how much they disliked Geren. This winning streak isn’t a coincidence. They beat good teams in this 6 game winning streak. They have the Gold Uni’s to rally behind. They are all stepping up and doing their part. Pitchers are pitching, hitters are hitting and defense is defending. That catch by Sweeny was a snapshot of the A’s effort level and how it has risen after BOBO was booted out of town. I dont think it is a coincidence that the A’s are playing good baseball now. I just hope that Melvin can take this resurgence and parley it into a June that sees the A’s getting back to .500 and challenging for the AL West. Geren was a symbol of what was wrong with the A’s. Now that he is gone, the players are re energized and playing their best ball of the year. Young players like Weeks are giving the team energy. Players like Barton who were not producing are being sent down as they should have been long ago.
I’m not surprised at all by the A’s sudden turn around. They cut lose their anchor and are now sailing full speed ahead. I hope that the A’s keep this effort level going and they finally keep that spark that allows them to compete. This is a great time to be an A’s fan.
Another year, another chance to hope for the team !!
You said DUNG GOT TO GO!
and by gosh, DUNG WENT!
And NewBob & co. are 7-4 since then.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
No, but rest assured, you'd do well.
Us polar bears value analytical thinking.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
oh it's fair. but i will destroy extra biebers just for fun.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
yay! he SO deserves it, for that haircut, if for nothing else.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
and for being untalented and tainting kids with his brand of crappy music
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
i could take 33 biebers in a fight
thanks to tallishness and the fact that i would spit fingers at others…
Bad spellers of the world untie.
Oh, also,
per SuSlu
Secret weapon: Guillermo Moscoso … switch hitter? Moscoso, who starts Friday at Philadelphia, went deep at spacious Citi Field from both the right and left sides of the plate (“Upper deck!” he said) during batting practice, but he said he’ll stick to hitting righty in games.
So MOOSE COSTCO might be my favoritist PLAYER EVER!!!!!!!
and in large industrial quantities, to boot!
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
This
I’m surprised he doesn’t come attached by plastic wrap with two other number 5 pitchers
He will be facing their lone non-great starter
So he has that going for him.
Semi-related
Did everyone see Huddy’s tater the other day? I’ve always wanted to see him go, “Welcome to ME, motherf^&*er” on a baseball. It was awesome.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
He tweeted about going there yesterday
Asked him if he got any new Punisher shirts and he said no but he wants some.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Not quite ecstatic yet.
Don’t get me wrong, I am loving this golden winning streak, but I still have the bad taste of the losing streak in my mouth. Before the 10-game losing streak, we were at 27-27. I’ll be happy when we get there again, not just because it’s .500 but because that’s where we were before the downward spiral.
Sadly, the team would need a 10-game winning streak
just to get back to where they were…Actually not, because now the season is 1/6 more completed and you’re still only at .500. 10-game losing streaks are very, very bad.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Would this be the first time ever some team had a 10-game losing streak
And 10-game winning streak in the same month?
It's pretty weird.
Since May 26th, we’re 12-13. 10 of those losses and 7 of those wins have come bunched together.
Well, it'll be at least a year before we're back to 27-27.
I’m hoping for 40-40 some time soon, though.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Not that it's a surprise
Slusser just tweeted that Ellis is not in tonight’s starting lineup.
Lineup looks like last night’s lineup.
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 12:24 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
BIg deal. Yesterday she said we weren't having gold unis
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I expect Ellis, in a gray uniform, starting at DH
And yes, I’m aware we’re in an NL park.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I bet if Geren were still manager, that in the bottom of the 1st that Ellis and Weeks would both start going out to take second.
by Slide Giambi on Jun 22, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
And would ask Fuentes, "Hey, what the heck are YOU doing here?"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Willingham out, Jackson playing first, and still no DDJ
He got unlucky in that there’s no DH this series, otherwise I’m sure he would be getting out there more.
Slusser says -
Mark Ellis will be playing more 1B and 3B, he tells The Chronicle. He says he might be at 1B tomorrow. #Athletics
STUPID.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
more
Ellis has no trouble with becoming a utility player, he tells The Chronicle. He says this is not about him, it’s about the team. #Athletics
by Johnny Bravo on Jun 22, 2011 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
My favorite part is that everybody bitching about Barton now has to see one of the worst hitters in MLB
playing first instead
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Lyle Overbay and Aubrey Huff have been worse than Barton.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
but Huff wears a red thong
and has a World Series ring and is super cool in orange and black etc
by Johnny Bravo on Jun 22, 2011 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
for somebody even weaker
who has no or very little experience playing the defensive position.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
this HAS to be some kind of showcase
or a sick joke
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
would somebody trade for ellis after a handful of games at 1B or 3B?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I think you have your answer
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Hardly
Barton has more of a chance of being a future key player here than Ellis does. It makes more sense to give Barton some time away from the big club to work on getting back to some basics without it affecting the A’s than it does to keep sending him out there while nothing’s changing.
If anything, sending Barton down for the time being to get right shows more about their hopes for him than doing anything else. If that means Ellis gets a few games at 1B in the meantime, so what?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Isn't that dependent on whether Ellis is going to be an everyday 1B or just a utility player/back up player?
If Conor is getting the majority of the time at 1B, then we’re not seeing one of the worst hitters in MLB playing first instead of Barton, right?
basically Ellis should never play 1B.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I don't see what's wrong with him being a back-up 1B (as well as backing up the other IF positions)
Play him there just few games a month. He shouldn’t be there on a regular basis, granted, but giving someone else a day off, IMO, is just fine.
we need him to play somewhere, Mikey. He's obv. being shopped.
by Leopold Bloom on Jun 22, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd go as far as to say that it negatively affects his trade value
Seeing as he’s probably not elite defensively at either position
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree. They fetishize versatility in the NL.
Play him in the outfield too for a couple of innings if it’ll get us back better trade value from whatever NL team he gets traded to.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Why would Ellis need to be shopped? I think all of baseball knows what he is capable of
or, more succinctly, incapable of
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty much how I feel
run him out there ever 3 or 4 days at 2B or whatnot, the GM around baseball know who he is not much will change that.
You pick up Ellis for an AA prospect
if you need a veteran stop gap at 2nd. And that is IT
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Trout is an AA prospect
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
no such luck
and he probably should be starting for them as bad as the Slegna are playing
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Shelby Miller?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
again, lets give gms some credit here
playing ellis in the outfield for a few innings (or at 3b, or at 1b) isn’t the difference between getting a B prospect instead of a C prospect in return.
lets assume that gms have a functional intelligence and competency above that of a newt.
by Tripp on Jun 22, 2011 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is a stretch, don't you think?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody acquiring him cares about his glove
because the acquiring team will be playing him at second, not as a supersub. They need to see if he can still hit at all.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
and they can look at the season thus far to see
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
But he needs to play, including at bats
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 1:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
yes, at second base, where he can showcase his best, only, skill
otherwise, no, he doesn’t need to play
this
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Nobody doubts he can play second.
People doubt he can hit.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
i don't think anything ellis does hitting wise in his presumably sparse playing time
will convince teams much of his hitting ability.
of course, if the a’s plays him a lot at first and third to give other teams a larger sample size of his hitting ability, then they’ll be hurting themselves.
bottom line, i don’t think ellis’s trade value will change much at all from now til a month from now. i think the team is simply trying to prove he’s healthy, and looking to trade him asap.
Ellis wasn't an awful hitter until this year.
He was never great, but at a .325 career wOBA, he’s been far from bad, either. If he gets scouted at a couple of games and gets good reports on his bat speed, they can move him. Agree they need to prove he’s healthy too, of course.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
someone tell ellis
to just swing as fast as he can during his at bats, regardless of where and what is thrown at him….
Isn't that what he has been doing?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Nah
Everyone knows what a good defensive 2B he is, whether he’s playing there right now or not.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
At this point he increases his value
If he can play multiple positions as a utility player. A utility player who can only play 2B would be less attractive.
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 1:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Playing 1B or 3B a few times over the course of a few weeks doesn't make him a utility player.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
It does to an NL contender decimated by infield injuries.
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
i dont think any time would be so enamored of his ability to play first or third once every two weeks
enough to pay significantly more for him than they would have before he showed that “ability”
gms arent that dumb
He could also butcher non-2B positions and cause his already limited trade value to plummet
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
sounds to me this is just a way to keep him on the roster
to see if anything materializes on the trade front. this is PR out of respect to Ellis. i seriously doubt the A’s will have him playing time as a utility player.
trade him to the giants for thomas neal
pick up salary if need be. then call up carter
I'd be up for this
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
How about?
Weeks in LF (not sure about his arm, but I thought he played CF for a bit [unless I’m thinking about someone else]), Ellis at 2B, Willingham/Jackson at 1B, Matsui at DH (once we’re back to playing in AL parks). Rotate Jackson into RF when he’s not playing 1B, and have Matsui get a day off or 2 and just PH and have Willingham DH.
I didn’t really think this out well yet (like adjust for Conor against righties [I’d say sit him]). Just wanted to throw this out there.
I could see that in a 9th inning defensive replacement.
After Matsui/Willingham’s last at-bat, Ellis comes in to take over at 2B and Weeks gets bumped out to LF.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
we should occasionally prevent cahill from pitching too and use him as a pinch runner
or prevent willingham from hitting, and use him as a designated fielder
Huh?
Cahill doesn’t pitch 162 games a year. Position players need the occasional day off. Is it really so bad to have a good defender able to give your every day players a day of rest?
the point is that in each of those scenarios, youre depriving your player of utilizing their best skill
ellis’s best skill, probably his only skill at this point, is playing second base well. no, putting him at first or third once every two weeks isn’t going to drastically hurt or help the team. but it’s a pointless, inefficient use of your resources, just like using willingham as a defensive replacement or using cahill as a pinch runner occasionally won’t actually hurt or help your team. but it’s still just pointless and dumb
We know Ellis plays second base well. Can he play a good defensive first base?
Can he handle the ball well at third? If so, I don’t really understand this as being a problem as we are utilizing Ellis’s only skill – good defense. If he can’t handle the ball at those positions, then I agree that having someone only back up 2B is probably worthless. If he can back up all IF positions with good defense, then how are we not utilizing his skill?
because he probably doesn't
the team (and ellis) has maintained for the last seven years that he doesn’t have the arm for 3b or ss. its unlikely that at age 34, this has changed. the most important skill in playing first base well is scooping up errant throws. its unlikely ellis has been practicing this ability much the last few years or recently
ellis’s best skill as a defender is excellent range. this skill is best utilized at second or ss. it wont help much at first or third. i see little reason to believe that he’ll be a good defender at those corner positions
Jackson really hasn't been much better than Barton
To me the difference is that Jackson has been better than most expected while Barton has been worse than most expected. But, just because he’s been better than we expected doesn’t mean that Jackson is lighting it up – and he’s not.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that Jackson hasn't been better than Barton
What I’m commenting on is the notion that Ellis is a downgrade from Barton. If Ellis plays 1B on a regular basis, then yes, he is a downgrade (at least offensively). If Ellis is merely a back-up player or utility IF, then I don’t see this as a downgrade as Jackson now becomes the everyday 1B and the team has added a solid defensive utility player.
Either way
in my opinion whoever is playing 1B – Jackson, Ellis, Rosales – it is a downgrade because there is no offensive improvement and worse defense at 1B.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
unless Barton's problems are significantly in his head, and a couple of weeks in AAA getting hot would do him good...
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah,
That is the only reason that I am not really upset at the move. If there is a good chance that being moved down to AAA will give Barton the chance to regroup a bit and get back on tractk to come back up in a few weeks – then I’m ok with that.
I just get annoyed when people were saying send him to AAA because he sucks when the alternatives are worse. If this move though means that Barton improves substantially then the couple of weeks with Jackson, Ellis, Rosales, Powell at 1b is ok.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
This
is why I am against sending Barton down. The replacements (Jackson/Ellis?) aren’t going to be any better.
BUT NO DINGERZ
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
makes room for a call up or trade though
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Not that there is room, just room at first so to speak
not an incumbent there
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
like?
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Oh, I don't have the answer
Carter could be a plus bat but negative glove. At this point I would rather run CoJax out there every day
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
But he's not going to be much better offensively
and is much worse defensively
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Right now, they are talking Ellis over there
so basically, anything is an improvement over Barton
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
And both decisions are stupid
Neither is an improvement
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
WER'E ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!111
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
What's the alternative?
DFAing Ellis and putting yourself at a great disadvantage when trying to trade him? Weeks isn’t going anywhere. Right now, they have to park Ellis somewhere until they can deal him, so they have to park him on the big league bench.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I would use him as back up at 3rd and SS and pinch hit
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
sorry, pinchNOhit
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
This is why all the calls to send Barton down started to drive me crazy – the alternatives are no better – and in Ellis’ case worse – on offense and definitely will be worst fielding the position.
by longtimeasfan on Jun 22, 2011 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless Ellis gets his hitting together
Then he’s eminently trade-able, and in the meantime, he can serve as mentor to Weeks.
Melvin fail
I’d rather have Jackson or Rosales there.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
so it sounds like
Jackson/Ellis/Rosales/Sizemore for 2 spots? Okay….
by Johnny Bravo on Jun 22, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
He went 2B-DH-2B in his three games in Sacramento
Having a three-game rehab with one of them likely a ‘day off’ in the field since it was a day game after a night game really isn’t enough time for him to do anything at another position anyway. They’d have needed to keep him down there at least a couple weeks for it to make a difference, and even then it’d hardly be much of one.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
if they're planning to use ellis like that
they might as well cut him. there’s no point in him taking up a roster spot if that’s how he’ll be used.
might as well give carter a shot right now and hope for lightning in a bottle
This will probably happen pretty soon.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I kind of doubt he
- and his less than half gone $6 million salary – would be cut.
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 1:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Well he'll be traded then, and we might have to pick up salary. The point is
that Carter will probably replace him pretty soon.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I have no problem seeing him at 1B
his defense will probably be better than CoJax’s. But I’m not sure about his arm at 3B. That will likely be an adventure.
Interesting he didn't mention SS
If he can throw from 3B he should be able to throw from SS. That was actually his original position.
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 1:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
SS is an even farther throw that I doubt he can make.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Barton was blocking Ellis at 1B?
Interesting.
yes, but can Ellis do the splits?
Or just the CanCan?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
BUT GOOD THING BARTON ISNT PLAYING FIRST
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
upon further reflection, I think Melvin's thinking here is the same as with Matsui
Melvin played Matsui every day and batted him third, because if Matsui isn’t an every day middle of the order player then why is he the DH? Similarly, why is Ellis still on the roster if he can’t be a utility player? If he proves that he can do it that’s fantastic, if not then he has to be traded. I think he has a sink or swim approach.
He is on the roster
because he came off a good year in 2010 and before this season Weeks was an injury-prone enigma who couldn’t be counted on.
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
oh, yeah I know
I just mean now that Weeks has had a great start to his MLB career and Ellis is having a real down season. I don’t even know if I agree with the logic, but I’m trying to figure out the thinking based on the other moves that the team has recently made.
Ellis at 3B??
I join the doubters. If he could play 3B, why didn’t we try him there long ago? It’s not like we’ve had anyone good there since … um, I don’t even remember. Healthy Chavez?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Ellis at first against lefties is ok
CoJack to the outfield. DeJesus and Sweeney sit against lefties. I don’t think we lose much that way. Against righties, Ellis needs to sit.
Ellis as late inning spot replacement in the field and pinch hitting. I don't want his anemic bat in the lineup
I love the guy but we need wins not warm fuzzy unicorn goosebumps
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I want to be the millionth person to say it was good to see Matsui performing well in LF
Despite following an AL team, I still see DHs as wussies by default and Matsui showed he has good fielding skills, even if his age means he can’t roam as well as some.
Also, it’s nice to see the As hit like big leaguers again and the infield has managed to get the error rate down too.
Agreed. DHs are wussies.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Jun 22, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Ellis's comments make me love him even more
Truly gracious. I’ll be interested to see how things work out with him playing other positions.
Help the A's help Japan. www.oaklandathletics.com/japan
by Englishmajor on Jun 22, 2011 1:46 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
This is my heart speaking
If Ellis can competently back up 3B, 2B, and 1B, should the A’s option Rosales to AAA?
by OaklandSi on Jun 22, 2011 1:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If I were a GM, which I have played one in a major motion picture did I mention
I pick up Ellis just for extra unicorn power. What a class act.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Is Ellis in the movie?
Who would play him if he was?
George Clooney
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
or Kareem Abdul Jabar
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Now THAT's a big IF!
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Actually Ellis is a medium-sized IF.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
This is why Ellis really just needs to be traded
ASAP
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
I'm sure that's what they're trying to do
But until it happens he has to be somewhere. We’re in NL parks — let him pinch hit for the pitcher. That’s still an upgrade (I think).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
people don't think his arm is strong enough for 3B. wouldn't that be a bigger concern at SS?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
It makes me sad that he won't be an everyday player but I also refuse to let him go.
Can he just retire and be a coach for the A’s or something?
If you'll excuse me, all of you, I'm going to go tearily spill my heart out to my only friend, the water heater. --danmerqury
You can hang his coat in your closet
and from time to time, take it out and smell it.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
*sigh*
If you'll excuse me, all of you, I'm going to go tearily spill my heart out to my only friend, the water heater. --danmerqury
Woohoo outta work and jumping on the 7 train!
Excited to see the game, Weeks, Gio on the mound, Matsui in the field, et al. Hell, I’m definitely going to give Melvin some good old hollerin’ love.
Gold is good. Let’s go A’s!
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation,"
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.
Get off there, you will get hurt!
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
So we can deduct that GranolaNerd is NOT John Rocker
"If you wrote something for which someone sent you a check, if you cashed the check and it didn't bounce, and if you then paid the light bill with the money, I consider you talented." —Stephen King
When I saw "open thread" and 653 comments I just knew there'd be a PL78 fight in here
but I didn’t know I’d get a clutch hitting discussion, too!
At least we are not pitching our tips
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
This thread even has manatee armor.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Jun 22, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Starting Lineups
1.) Weeks 2B
2.) Penny SS
3.) Crisp CF
4.) Matsui LF
5.) CoJax 1B
6.) Sweeney RF (thank you Bob Melvin!)
7.) Suzuki C
8.) Sizemore 3B (batting behind Kurt, heh?)
9.) Gio G SP
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Jun 22, 2011 2:32 PM PDT reply actions
needs moar DDJ
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
In theory, anyway
it could be because Sweeney is 4 for 6 career against Dickey, while DeJesus is 1 for 5.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
If that was the real reason
I would cry quietly to myself.
and because Swingles had a great night last night
I’m glad he is in there. I wish Sizemore was up in the order though.
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Jun 22, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be Old Bob's reasoning
New Bob is smarter…right?
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Sizemore and CoJax should be swapped
but Melvin loves him some CoJax.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Good pitching matchup for us as well
Dickey is pretty mediocre in spite of the knuckle.
This is a great matchup for us
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Jun 22, 2011 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Tired of Crisp hitting third
And no DDJ
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Wow! I didn't know that Fosse had a band before Cleveland drafted him!
"I heard the reason Geren never played Powell was so he could have someone around to fetch him a cushion."- UrgentMirth
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jun 22, 2011 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
a little known fact that he has tried to keep hidden
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Yuck
Try again with green pants please.
by Glorious Mundy on Jun 22, 2011 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
They burn us!!!
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
gold pants are too much
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
srsly
they look like prisoner work pants
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I was thinking more like rejected "That 70s Show" wardrobe choices
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on Jun 22, 2011 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
i think it’s an improvement over the grey through.
by AV on Jun 22, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Really, no
Nobody should have that shade of yellow on their ass.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Scuse me - Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
a pyramidworth of oregon ducks cheerleaders all say quack hi!
by AV on Jun 22, 2011 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
That doesn't change my opinion.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Jun 22, 2011 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
even the grey pants are pretty bad with the gold tops
The gold jerseys go best with white pants and SUN.
no doubt. but they can only wear the white pants half the time.
by AV on Jun 22, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I just laughed
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
laughing is good. one time, riding my bike down fruitvale on my way to the coliseum for a day game, i heard some kid yelling “ice cream! ice cream!” thing was, there were no ice cream trucks around, no paletas either… then it dawned on me. he was commenting on my full-body monochromatic wardrobe. go A’s!!!
by AV on Jun 22, 2011 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
lots of arguing over things that don't matter
you know, some ol’ same ol’ :D
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Jun 22, 2011 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
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