The three problems with the A's
by Boone55 on Jun 12, 2011 11:53 AM PDT
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While I am as happy as anyone that Beane finally fired Geren I can't say that it makes me anymore optimistic about the future. There are still 3 major factors that are slowly suffocating this once proud franchise.
1) Ownership -As a lifelong A's fan for 20 years I have seen the good and the bad. I remember growing up and going to a packed stadium and watching future hall of famers like Ricky and Eck. It was the Giants that had the old crappy stadium with no marketable players. But ever since the Haas family gave up ownership it has been nothing but old rich men sitting on their hands collecting there revenue check. I cannot think one thing the Wolfe ownership has done to try and draw more fans or make the stadium and team more fan friendly.
2) Beane- As the years go by I believe more and more that Billy's success was more a product of having three #1 starters and steroids. Ever since the big 3 left, Beane has made some terrible trades and questionable free agent signings. I will never live down the Andre Either for Milton Bradley deal followed by the Cargo, Street and Smith for Holliday deal. All we have to show for that now is Michael Taylor who looks like a right handed Ryan Sweeney. And while the A's rarely spend money on free agents when they do or try to, it is on questionable players. Anyone remember what Estaban Loiaza did with the A's for 20M? I am thankful Rafael Furcal and Marco Scutaro turned down our multiyear 20M offers, as they have both been busts. The only good trade Beane has made in the past couple years was the Swisher for Gio, Sweeney, De Los Santos trade. What Beane also doesn't understand is fans need a core group of players to latch on to year after year to identify with the team. During Billy's entire time as the GM he has only keep one player, Eric Chavez for the duration of his career.
3) Selig-Everyone seems to forget that the A's gave the Giants the territorial rights of the South Bay back in the 80's when they were desperate for a stadium and the A's didn't ask for anything in return. But the bad guy here isn't the Giants, its the commissioner who has refused to give the A's a simple yes or no answer on whether they can move to San Jose. Any answer is better than no answer so the A's can at least move on to other options if their move to San Jose is denied. But After 2 years of hearing nothing from Selig a simple answer appears too much to ask for. I don't know how a commissioner can stand ideally by and let a franchise go down the toilet. A stadium would not cure every problem for the A's but it would solve the largest problem and distract almost everyone from the other issues.
Again it was time for Geren to go but until one of these problems is resolved the A's are not any closer to becoming a winning franchise once again
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I'm surprised
I thought this was going to say 1. Hitting, 2. Defense, and 3. Pitching…
WordUpThome: GWEN STEPHANIE IS CONFUSING AND MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE
by pbruins92 on Jun 12, 2011 2:35 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
+1
I was thinking the same thing…
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
um...
bradley and loiaza were major contributors in 2006, and while it would be great to have ethier now, without bradley and loiaza we probably never would have experienced the absolute bliss of marco’s base-clearing double in game three against the twins. i question plenty of beane’s moves, but not those two.
also, while you bash ownership (and perhaps rightly so), you then blame selig for the san jose situation. wolff is one of the people pushing for san jose, so if you’re upset with selig for slowing that down, aren’t you indirectly supporting lew’s efforts?
in my opinion the a’s have 4 major problems:
1. total lack of offense
2. surprisingly crappy defense
3. incapability of maintaining a healthy pitching staff
4. an alienated local fanbase
Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.
by mendelbob on Jun 12, 2011 3:09 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Yeah these are bigger problems, at least in terms of the team right now.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
Yeah
The three problems mentioned in the articles are problems, but stuff like the lousy lineup and horrible defense are real on-field issues that really affect the team on a day-to-day basis.
you hit nail right on head
quick, what crappy movie is that quote from?
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
here, let me google subzin that for you. hmm. that doesn’t have quite the same ring…
just kidding! anyway, i’m not finding it without the “the.” you sure it’s from a movie?
http://www.subzin.com/s/you%20hit%20nail%20right%20on%20head
nope
it was this one Man of the House (1995) with Chevy Chase and Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Chase is “talking” like an Native American because they joined the Indian Guides (kind of like boy scouts). I don’t know why that phrase stuck with me.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I stopped reading at "Ricky"
Was the rest good?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
See! It's exactly this kind of attitude that drives off...
…
I can’t do it. Never mind.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Trades
The only good trade Beane has made in the past couple years was the Swisher for Gio, Sweeney, De Los Santos trade
A few other decent trades Beane has made since then:
- Scott Sizemore for David Purcey
- Guillermo Moscoso for Ryan Kelly
- Adam Kennedy for Joe Dillon
- Michael Wuertz for Richie Robnett & Justin Sellers
There are more that I think were arguably good, but I don’t want to argue about those. The point is, it’s easy to notice the trades where the guy we gave away turns into a star, and it’s easy to forget the ones where the guy we gave away fizzled out and went nowhere.
All we have to show for that [the Matt Holliday trade] now is Michael Taylor.
That’s not quite true. We also still have Shane Peterson and Ethan Hollingsworth. Neither is beating down the door right now, but they’re still in the system and still might amount to something.
Anyway, you can’t judge a trade based on what we have to show for it now. Sometimes you trade present for future and sometimes you trade future for present. If a trade is a few years old, what we got for it may all be in the past now. Would you say the Jermaine Dye trade was a bad trade because “all we have to show for it now” is … nothing?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
take away the ridiculous babip and shane peterson is still putting up something like 285/360/475. .204 iso. that's slightly better than michael taylor and peterson can play 1B
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Yeah, but take away the 2 and he's only batting .85
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And here I thought the A's had low batting averages!?
Someone just has dropped the first number from them all season long!?
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I like Peterson and am pulling for him
Watched him a ton at Long Beach State. He and Danny Espinosa played together and seemed pretty comparable with the bat. He had a 20-game hit streak I think his jr year. He was even a decent pitcher.
Smart kid – an academic all-american, and comes from a good family. Maybe even some NorCal roots. I think his mom said they lived in the Bay Area at one point.
I personally don’t have any issue with the A’s moving to San Jose. I want the franchise to succeed and it’s not like Oakland is getting any nicer or having corporations moving there. And while the Scuturo playoffs were great the A’s would be in playoff contention every year with Brett, Cahill and Gio leading the pitching and Either and Cargo leading the offense, now that would be exciting.
that's a valid point, cargon and ethier would be great to have right now
but after the 4 consecutive division series failures and the team being way better in 2005 than anyone could have expected, i think trading some future for some present in 2006 made sense, and clearly it paid off that year. i don’t know what to make of the cargon trade, that one really is a head scratcher for me (although if holliday had led us to a division title, i wouldn’t be nearly as troubled by it), but when ethier was traded away, anderson and gonzalez weren’t even in the picture yet. in a’s years, you’re mixing two different generations. and besides, there’s still plenty of time for cargon to prove himself a bust. 1 good year and 1 great year in colorado isn’t all that meaningful (sour grapes anyone?).
Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.
Andre Ethier was a fine prospect, but
he wasn’t a sure-fire star at the time we gave him away. He was a pretty good player who was ripe for a try in the big-leagues. Sometimes those guys catch fire, sometimes they fizzle.
The same could be said of Vin Mazzaro, Corey Brown, Sam Demel, Aaron Cunningham, Jeff Gray, or Danny Putnam. But we only remember Ethier because he’s the one who turned out great.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Define "great".
In Eithier’s best year he had a 3.5 WAR, and he’s totally awful at defense and isnt much of a baserunner either. To compare: Ryan Sweeney has a 4.2 WAR season.
I cant stand people who fault the Bradley trade. Andre Either is just a barely average player. He’s exactly the kind of guy you trade, always. I dont give a crap he’s gone, and wouldnt want him here ever, if it meant missing the 06 playoffs.
I havent read this article yet.
That said: ONLY THREE?
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Two thoughts...
1) I know I’m in the minority, but I believe Schott/Hoffman deserve more credit than they get. There are times I’d rather have them than Wolff.
2) Is it possible that Beane isn’t the baseball god many have thought? Is it possible that his early stellar reputation was actually built on a foundation that Sandy Alderson put in place?
Pro-rated at 500 at-bats a year that means that for two years out of the fourteen I played, I never even touched the ball. ~Norm Cash, on his 1,081 career strikeouts
Beane
It might be interesting to compare Beanes trade performance before and after he got an ownership interest (4/5/09??). That is when he stopped investing other peoples money and began investing some of his own in the A’s.
by kimo from kauai on Jun 13, 2011 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Sort Of
1) I wasn’t fond of Schott&Hoffman, but they were better then Wolff.
2) Beane isn’t unbelievable, but he is a good GM. To be honest, Theo Epstein kind of did what Beane was doing in the early 2000’s, except he was more successful since he had much more money to work with. Needless to say, Beane’s moneyball formula wasn’t going to be successful in the long-term. It became famous because he used something no one had really used before, and it worked. Later, it started to fade, because ultimately, money’s important in baseball.
Alderson was the GM when the Big 3, Giambi, Miggy and Chavvy were signed
Beane was the assistant GM. He may have had something to do with some of those signings, just as Forst has something to do with signings since he became assistant GM.
Everyone complains about Wolff, and the A's not keeping players. I don't think people realize how the
salary structure has changed in the last 10 years. Jose Canseco, Mr 40/40 and MVP, never made more than 5 million as an Athletic, which would be the 5th highest on the roster, and with his talent, he would be closer to the A-Rod salary. Mark McGwire as late as 1997 was only making 7 million for the A’s. In 2001, when the A’s won 100 games, the Yankees led the league with a team salary of 109 Million, This year there are 12 teams over 109 million.
by theblackpearl on Jun 12, 2011 10:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
In 1990 the A's had the highest payroll with Kansas City coming in second!
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A's 3 Promlems
Let us not forget this decades old one! (my signature " Says It All ")
Ray Fosse... About as COOL as the Breeze Out A Camel's A$$!
I hope we haven’t fallen to the level that we are happy with winning one playoff series since the early 90’s. Beating the Twins was great but its not like they won a title. They got sweep the next round. We might as well be Pirates fans if thats the case And I do thing that there is a correlation with Beane and the moves he has made since becoming a part owner and father of twins.
We didn't beat the Twins.
The only team we beat in the playoffs since 2000 is the Tigers.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
No, we did beat the Twins and then lost to the Tigers.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oops. Um ... disregard previous comment.
<slinks away in shame>
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
at this point
i’m really happy with meaningful games in september. of course every fan would love to see a championship, but after those painful game 5 exits, just getting past the first round in 2006 was a huge deal.
Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.
All games are meaningful.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Blows my mind people are pointing the finger at Beane.
He’s not the one who told Beltre and Berkman not to come here. He’s done a fine job except for the Holliday trade and the Hudson trade, and even then the Huddy deal looked okay at the time. Signing Dye and Loaiza wasnt good, but this guy got basically an entire franchise out of Mark Mulder. Thats doing something right.
why wouldn't Beltré accept the most guaranteed years and $$?
the A’s did not make the best offer.
Why would Berkman rush to accept a DH job in the AL when he said he’d only consider it if he couldn’t get a starting position player gig in the NL?
Beltre used us to drive up his price.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
... your point?
He was successful. The price went up. The A’s not only didn’t match the increase, they didn’t even come particularly close.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
You think Beltre has 6 good years left? I sure don't.
I would have liked him in Oakland, but paying him $16M per for his age 35-38 seasons would have fucking SUCKED.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Er. 35-37, I mean.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
As would've paying him 13 million for those seasons,
like the A’s were planning to do.
Bottom line, any contract of that length to any player would likely suck by the end of it. The question of whether or not it’s worth it is determined by how much you think said player’s going to significantly increase your playoff chances in the first 3 or 4 years of that contract. A further factor to consider in this particular instance, because Beltre was either going to the A’s or a division rival, is how much he’ll help you increase your playoff chances by virtue of him being on your team instead of a division rival (and vice versa, how much he’ll further decrease your playoff chances if he’s on a division rival rather than your team).
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jun 14, 2011 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
he also used the Angels to drive up his price
he was quite clear that he wanted the most guaranteed years and money that he could get.
To both you and Paul Thomas
What I meant to say really is that it isn’t like we low-balled him. Its not like we came in below everyone else. We came in at a high competitive price, people beat us. It doesn’t make sense to put such a huge chunk of your payroll into one guy. I’d feel like we were really bad at making offers if we were low-balling people. I don’t think we did with Beltre.
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I wouldn't call it low-balling either
but the A’s did not make the best offer, or even the second best offer. I myself was not in favor of doing the kind of contract that would have been required to sign him. (I think Texas will regret the last half of that contract.)
But the A's made the first one, and made a decent one is all
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that's true
it was also clear that he wasn’t going to simply take the first offer. Boras spent considerable time trying to stir up a bidding war, which he eventually did.
This is the team we used on Monday....at AAA.
1B: Chris Carter
2B: Adrian Cardenas
SS: Eric Sogard
3B: Josh Donaldson
C: Anthony Recker
LF: Shane Peterson
CF: Jai Miller
RF: Michael Taylor
DH: Andy Laroche
You could absolutely argue that this lineup would do as well as the one the big league team is using currently, if not better.
it would be hard to do much worse
Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.
No, you couldn't.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
SO YOU'RE SAYING I CAN'T ARGUE WITH HIM?
by LoneStranger on Jun 14, 2011 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly!
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I'm not saying I am going to.
But if someone tried to, they could probably find a compelling argument for it, with SNTS etc at the heart of it. Some rookies destroy immediately because no pitchers have decent scouting reports on them, see: Weeks, Jemile.
7-21 is destroying?
OK.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I mean...
The DH is a guy who was cut because he had a .650 OPS and wasn’t good defensively.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
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