SB Nation Bay Area Editor's Pick
The A's Starting Rotation: A Look at What's Stabilized
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Good overview
Thanks
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Another notable stat, BB/PA
2011 | Career
Brett Anderson: 4% | 5.3%
Trevor Cahill: 8% | 8.6%
Gio Gonzalez: 10.9% | 11.7%
Brandon McCarthy: 3.9% | 8.3%
They’re all giving up less free passes compared to their careers. Sure, McCarthy’s K/PA isn’t amazing, but his BB/PA sure is.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Yes but as the OP says BB/PA doesn't stabilize till 550 BF, so we shouldn't read too much
into this, especially McCarthy’s which is far different from his career rate. Here is some of McCarthy’s 2011 stats:
ERA – 3.26
FIP – 2.47
xFIP – 3.39
SIERA – 4.02
His FIP is a lot lower than his xFIP due to his microscopic 0.18 HR/9. His xFIP is remarkably low in large part due to his tine BB/9 rate of 1.45. Here is some sensitivity on xFIP if you vary his BB/9 rate between his current 1.45 and his career 3.20:
1.45 BB/9……..3.39 xFIP
2.00 BB/9……..3.58 xFIP
2.50 BB/9……..3.74 xFIP
3.00 BB/9……..3.91 xFIP
3.20 BB/9……..3.98 xFIP
SIERA thinks McCarthy’s been pitching like a 4.02 ERA pitcher, which is close to his xFIP if you substitute his career 3.20 BB/9 rate rather than his current 1.45 BB/9 rate. Basically, he’s got to pitch an entire season like he’s been pitching now before the numbers believe that he’s really a 3.40 ERA pitcher rather than a 4.00 ERA pitcher. Still the 4.00 ERA is a lot better than his career 4.41 ERA, so I’m very happy with him even if he regresses.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions
BTW I used the following formula to calculate xFIP
FIP=(13HR + 3BB – 2K)/IP +K and I used 0.815 for HR and 2.94 for K
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not the xFIP formula.
xFIP doesn’t just normalized HRs allowed, it normalizes HR/FB. So a groundballer like McCarthy would be expected, by xFIP, to give up less HRs than, say, Fuentes, who is a flyball guy.
Side note: is the constant really all the way down to 2.94? Wow. It was 3.20 two years ago.
Yes I know that that's the xFIP formula, and if you normalize HR/FB for McCarthy
then you appear to get .815 HR/9
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry the constant should be 3.00 not 2.94
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Run scoring so far this year is down to 4.26 runs/game from 4.50 runs/game 2 years ago.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Yes, the FIP "constant" is not really constant
It’s a recurring problem. If you hunt around for it, I’m pretty sure Tom Tango has come up with the proper constants to apply for each year going back to about 1900.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Why does SIERA think he's been pitching so much worse than xFIP?
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
And would it be completely out of the question to look at his BB rate for spring?
Dude only walked one batter during the entire spring. Still doesn’t reach the magic 550 BF, but still closer.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Spring is encouraging, it is true. But Michael Choice, the dude that is King up a storm and not hitting well in A+ ball also had a phenomenal spring.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, but I think someone's walk rate is more stable than someone's BABIP
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
I'm surprised by that, too
His LD rate is not unusually low, which is the situation when I would expect SIERA to say that a guy is worse than he seems.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It is strange. I did some sensitivity, varying K rates and BB rates for McCarthy
Actual K/BB 30/7 — xFIP 3.39, SIERA 4.02
35/9.45 — xFIP 3.39, SIERA 3.82
40/13.7 - xFIP 3.39, SIERA 3.72 xFIP 3.39, SIERA 3.59
45/17 -
50/20.3 — xFIP 3.39, SIERA 3.46
55/23.6 — xFIP 3.39, SIERA 3.35
It looks to me like SIERA weights K/PA a lot more than xFIP does
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
mccarthy has always shown the ability to throw the ball where he wanted.
command was his calling card as a prospect, and his minor league bb/9 was just 1.8. perhaps his stuff is just so dramatically improved as a result of the new release point that he’s now able to pitch more in the zone to mlb hitters?
really though, its pretty amazing to look at his pitch movement charts from before and after he changed his arm angle.
2011:

2007:

getting a little more sink on that two seamer now, eh? no wonder his gb% is way up. not to mention the fact that his new cutter drops almost as much, and, at 88-89, probably looks a lot like the sinker coming out of his hand.
That is pretty amazing!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks WC
I hope this is somewhat useful when thinking about the starting pitching so far and looking forward into the rest of the season
Dreaming of the connection
Most of us are no doubt dreaming, fantasizing actually- about the pitching and hitting coming together for this team. The current roster boasts some bats that should be popping right now and for whatever reasons (coaching. luck, motivation, star alignment? ) they just are flat as can be- but surely that has to break eventually. When the hitting finally comes alive and joins this magical pitching staff, could we see another 20 game win streak?
The greenmachine
Not A Huge Win Streak
But I think this team has the capability to win 5-6 in row, and stay way over .500.
Considering that has only happened once in the history of the AL
I am gonna go out on a limb and say it is fairly improbable.
by Henduland in Texas on May 9, 2011 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions
So it can happen!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I would think some sort of scoreless innings streak
is more likely than a double digit win streak this year.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 9, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
who is going to be scoreless ?
‘cuz I definitely agree there will be a long scoreless innings streak. I’m just not looking forward to it.
I'll see your .500 and raise you a game!
by eastcoasta'sfan on May 9, 2011 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not pesssimistic like that.
I’m thinking something like five or six shutouts in a row, whether from the whole staff, or just one pitcher throwing five or six shutouts in a row, or at least five or six deep starts giving up no runs.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 10, 2011 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions
It's pretty unrealistic to think ANY team is capable of winning 20 in a row, least of all this one
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Unrealistic maybe, but not impossible!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but I don't think this team/offense is even capable of winning 10 in a row
Even if the offense rounds into a basically average one, they’re still going to have stinkers fairly often.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
You're probably right
But a stretch of .750 ball could be very well possible, and I would be happy with that.
It's true. We took 3 of 4 from Texas.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Well... A .500 team has a .1% chance of winning any 10 particular games.
So given 118 remaining stretches where they can win 10 in a row (given they won yesterday), assuming my math is right there is about a 10.9% chance that they win 10 in a row assuming they are a .500 team.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
(note, this was just for my amusement)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
well it amused me too, and thank you.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 9, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
i would take 5 in a row with this offense
Chris Carter is the next Hank Aaron right?
by streetisclosedin08 on May 9, 2011 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Given the WLWLWLWLWL pattern so far this year,
I’m starting to question whether the team is capable of winning three in a row.
Am I correct in stating that the team has neither swept nor been swept in a series yet this season?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
You are correct, sir
I’ll call the longest winning streak this year at 5
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 9, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
You are correct in saying that they have not swept/been swept, but they have won three in a row.
The A’s have won three in a row twice this season (split over two series obviously), and lost three in a row once (coming after one of the 3 game win streaks naturally).
Nice stuff, UM.
Both Cahill’s K rate and Anderson’s GB rate are cause for optimism, not to mention McCarthy’s overall awesomeness.
Thanks!
I know that the offense hasn’t been that terrible compared to the rest of the league, but I still expect them to come around, so if the starting pitching is improving from last year too I think we really can see a hot stretch that puts us solidly above .500.
This is my thought process, exactly.
The pitching might be overperforming, but the offense is underperforming more. With a regression from both, we’re still right on target for that 85-86 win area. And if McCarthy really is a changed man (and stays healthy), 88 is not out of the question.
Well
The Angels and Rangers seem to be having a bit of trouble. If the rotation keeps on rolling, and the offense does a bit more, the we might really contend for the division crown. Needless to say, I doubt that any AL West team will win 95 games, maybe one will scratch out 90 W.
I agree that 88 is not "out of the question", and for that matter even 93 isn't "out of the question"
but where are you getting that we’re “on target” for 85-86? FWIW BB-Pro thinks we’re on target for 84 wins. 85-86 isn’t much different, but I’m just curious where you came up with it.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Rather than having stabalized / not as binary
Wouldn’t it make more sense to have some error bars for all stats?
Sure! Go for it!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 9, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm curious how error bars work in these type of situations
You don’t have independent observations for a single player. All you have is one data point (e.g Brett Anderson has a fly ball ratio of X, not all Brett Andersons have a fly ball ratio of X, Y, and Z). What do you use for variability? A standard number that comes from looking at the variability of all baseball players after the same number of innings? This is beyond my statistical knowledge.
by Henduland in Texas on May 9, 2011 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I suppose you could bootstrap
With each at bat considered a separate observation, find the fly ball ratio after resampling and repeat 1000 times. But something tells me that is probably not conventional.
by Henduland in Texas on May 9, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you
I like having this kind of analysis, but I absolutely hate that the word “stabilize” is becoming popular in sabermetric writing. FanGraphs writers are using (I would argue misusing) it a lot. The thresholds cited by that FG article are essentially arbitrary. I understand and appreciate that it’s good to have something to use as shorthand — a point at which you can say, “I’m no longer going to ignore this performance due to small sample size issues,” but the use of the word stabilize is, I feel, very misleading, even when the author adds a disclaimer (which I thank you for, UrgentMirth).
Just keep in mind that stats always need to be regressed, whether you’re doing it formally or just when you’re eyeballing it. The bigger the sample, the less regression is needed. In that sense, no sample is too small to be of any use, and no sample is large enough to be a perfect representation of true talent.
This is one reason I really like ZiPS RoS projections. I’m not sure what goes on behind the scenes there, but at least they are taking current season performance and doing the regression work for us, on a daily basis. I wish more of the projection systems did this.
by thelincolndude on May 9, 2011 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree... but but but how?
MobiusKlein wrote it flippantly enough that it makes it seem easy to do. Maybe it is, but I don’t understand how. From this type of data, I don’t see how you get a measure of variability to put on things like +/ estimates or 95% confidence intervals or whatever your favorite measure of variability is. We don’t have 20 samples of “Brett Anderson flyball ration up to the point of May 9th”. We have 1. Where does the error estimate come from? Can you break it up by start, in which case you have an n equal to number of starts? Or do you use baseball players as a whole and assume variability is the same for all pitchers? Bootstrapping would do it, but that takes a lot of analysis. Really, as a biologist who does a lot of stats, I am curious and want to know. I agree that this is important, and the use of the word “stabilize” is as arbitrary as alpha being .05, but I just want to know how to do it.
by Henduland in Texas on May 9, 2011 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
One AN's resident statisticians might want to chime in before I hurt myself
But I think what you would do is take the number of balls in play as n (in your example it’s 145), and add in a certain amount of either past player performance or league average performance. That amount would depend on how big the sample is and on how much the stat tends to vary.
by thelincolndude on May 9, 2011 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep.
The larger the sample size, the less past performance you add in. So if you had an n of 2 games, it’d be almost entirely past performance, obviously.
Thanks for the responses
But I am still a bit confused. So you use previous data and league average performance to supplement real data? So the variability will be similar whether he pitched 2 games or 32? It seems to me you should have large error bars after 2 and small after 32.
by Henduland in Texas on May 10, 2011 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, you'd add in past data if you were looking to regress a projection.
Or you could slap on error bars, instead of regressing. Two different things, meant for two different goals.
Please turn this post green
This is such an important point. The shift from “too-small sample” to “adequate sample” is gradual, not merely a matter of hitting a quota number of at-bats or innings pitched.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Has anyone else noticed McCarthy's BB rate increase over his last three starts?
Since were talking about small sample sizes, it would suggest a departure from the staggeringly low walk rates that have been key to his success.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 11:32 AM PDT reply actions
Eh I didn't see the intentional walk which would have made it nearly a full BB/9 increase from his season total.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
His control really has remained impeccable
Check out those four unintentional walks over his past three starts; in three of them, the 4th ball was in the strike zone. In the fourth, at least one of the balls was in the zone.

(not sure what happened to the third pitch…)

-

-

by Danny on May 9, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand that the strike zone box on these charts represent a generic strike zone, and not the particular ump's
but I don’t see what possible strike zone the ump for the first walk could have had for those calls to make sense. He blew three out of the four shown calls! Maybe he only called strikes from the waist up.
Thats interesting. Thanks for th info.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
He's walking so few people
He is in the micro-walk range!
by Henduland in Texas on May 9, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
So, should the A's try to re-sign McCarthy?
My guess is that it won’t be worth it if Ross continues to progress and Braden comes back, plus there’s Outman. But man, he seems like the real deal.
Don't have to, hes arbitration eligible next year
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Sweet
I’m confused on why. His first arbitration eligible year was 2009 according to Cot’s. Why is he stuck with a fourth arbitration year?
by Glorious Mundy on May 9, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Because he was a super 2
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
That coupled with his performance thus far
Makes it a great, (at the time) under the radar move to sign him.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
Oh totally. I thought he would pitch like shit. He still has time to fall apart and prove me right and considering his injury history its not out of the question but it absolutely looks like it was a great move.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
HRs allowed
Just looking at team leaders, A’s are second with only 18 HR allowed, best in AL, 1 behind Atlanta and…tied with SFG. Giants batters have outHR’d A’s 28-21, which is a bit sad since they have no DH.
A’s team ERA of 2.67 is well ahead of Atlanta’s 2.85 according to BBRef but once you see Atl has only 4 UER and the A’s 23(!) it’s not so impressive. Only AZ with 24 has given up more unearned runs.
by You sunk my blankenship on May 9, 2011 3:52 PM PDT reply actions
In fairness, like 6 or 7 of those "unearned" runs have been because of pitcher fielding errors
I still don’t think those should be “unearned,” even within the somewhat silly context of baseball errors. They’re the pitcher’s fault.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I agree with you.
That said, I would guess the reason for this has to do with ERA being a first iteration of an attempt to measure pitcher performance, and the performance that is trying to be measured is as a thrower, not a fielder. 20+ years ago, the pitcher with the most wins (and/or highest win percentage) almost inevitably won the Cy Young. Now, at least, some attention is given to ERA along with wins. Say what you want about ERA not being all that well correlated with actual pitching performance, at least it is more meaningful than ‘wins’, where a pitcher might get a ‘win’ because he barfed up a ‘save’ and then his team rescued the game, or a pitcher who pitched 8 0-run innings gets denied that same win because the closer [Fuentes, I’m talking to you here] failed to convert the save but got the win, etc. etc.
So, in the context that Cy Young voters still pay attention to wins, and MVP voters still pay attention to RBI’s, it’s not too earth-shattering that a pitcher improves his ERA by booting a comebacker…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 10, 2011 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
It's kind of humorous, though
that baseball’s idea of “modernizing” is to wait until the 1990s to replace a stat invented in the 1870s with one invented in the 1890s…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It's a grand OLD game, isn't it. Ah, well, at least it's an improvement on cricket.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 11, 2011 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sure this has been discussed.
But any chance we give weeks, Miller, or Cardenas a shot at giving this offense a jump. They all are off to very good starts in Sac, and I’ve heard Weeks is the real deal from a friend who attends many Rivercats games.
Mile High Salute
Miller is King in 40% of his AAA at bats. His numbers will come down when his 429 BABIP recedes back to normal levels
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
The readability of your discussion of K's would hugely benefit from a dash or somehing
Maybe it’s because my last name is King, but I get thrown off every time you say ‘King’ or ‘king’ and not, like, K’ing, or K-ing.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 10, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Ellis is well on his way to washed up
Not sure if Weeks is healthy again yet, but there’s no reason for the A’s to wait if he is. Though still quite good, Ellis’ defense is no longer special, and I’m pretty sure Weeks can manage a .507 OPS.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Do you actually believe that Ellis has a true-talent OPS of .507?
If not, why are you citing a month’s worth of at-bats?
On an unrelated point, I continue to believe the A’s’ long-term need for Weeks is as a center fielder, not as a second baseman. I suppose they could B.J. Upton him, but moving around constantly in the field screwed up Upton’s first couple of big-league seasons.
If they’re calling up someone for second base, I’d favor Eric Sogard. Weeks can come up when Coco Crisp inevitably hits the DL.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Has Weeks played there at all?
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 10, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope
Far as I know, he’s never played anything other than second base.
It’s more a matter of skillset and team needs than anything else.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Of course not.
I believe he’s well on his way to rapid decline, though, and he’s not going to cost us anything with the bat.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Okay, so, rephrasing,
“I’m pretty sure Weeks can manage to hit better than a basically arbitrary number that I know Mark Ellis is actually better than.”
Doesn’t say much, does it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Eh. Ellis looks pretty finished.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Okay then, say "Ellis looks pretty finished"
Don’t cite a number that even the person citing it knows is disingenuous.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I just did.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Christ
Everything isn’t a science fair. I pointed out what Ellis is currently hitting and suggested Weeks could hit at least that well. Sheesh.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Which is absolutely the wrong way to decide who will hit better in the future.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 17, 2011 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Cahill's going to regress all the way to a Cy Young award.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
What part of if he learns how to strike out pitchers he will be very good, but currently he is not did you not understand?
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 9, 2011 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
The revisionist history part.
What part of you’re not always right do you not understand?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on May 9, 2011 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to get a piece of paper
and tally up the number of times I heard “Cahill’s going to regress because he doesn’t strike out enough people” this offseason in one column, and “Cahill’s going to regress unless he starts striking out more people” in the other column. Except I’m going to need about three more sheets of paper for the former.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Who really cares any more?
They’re both saying the exact same thing, just in different ways.
And, he is striking out more people now.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Right
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 10, 2011 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah im not sure why jeepers doesn't understand that those are both the same thing.
The first one is the same thing as the last one. If you think that player X will regress because they put too many balls in play, if they change their profile and stop putting balls in play, guess what, they no longer put too many balls in play to regress off of.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 10, 2011 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
One is a more encouraging spin than the other:
1) This glass is 30% full, and therefore is not 80% full.
2) If you put more into the glass it will become 80% full.
The person who makes the first statement might think the second statement is obvious, but some people resent the phrasing in the first statement for whatever reason.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 10, 2011 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
They are absolutely not the same thing.
One is a conclusion he’s going to get worse, and the other is a statement regarding improvements he can make to get better. The former was repeated ad nauseum this offseason, and the latter was rarely mentioned.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No, they really are saying the same thing
One is just worded more as an absolute while the other has an “unless” attached.
The point remains the same, however – regression was expected if he didn’t start striking out more people.
Why it matters so much how people said it, I really don’t know.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Well there is one fundamental distinction:
Did he pitch well but need to up the K-rate to maintain that level of success long term, or did he not pitch that well and need to up the K-rate in order to succeed long term?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Both of those statements are correct.
It’s not really either/or.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Well, you can't really "pitch well" and "not pitch that well"
at the same time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If someone tells me,
“He pitched well, but he did not pitch that well,” I’m going to go with either:
1. They’re contradicting themselves
2. They’re drunk
3. Both
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Except nobody's saying that, specifically
Some people think he pitched well last year.
Some think he didn’t.
Some think he pitched well in certain ways but not in others.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
No, I very specifically, in my comment, said,
Did he pitch well but need to up the K-rate to maintain that level of success long term, or did he not pitch that well and need to up the K-rate in order to succeed long term?
That IS an either/or, precisely because you can’t “pitch well” and “not pitch that well” at the same time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And I'm not talking about the either/or
Because in general, some people were saying Cahill was pitching well based on some things while others were saying he wasn’t based on others.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
You can if you're Arthur Dent in the Hitchhiker's Guide computer game
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Okay
If the sole question— and I suppose it’s a reasonable enough question to ask— is whether he pitched well or poorly in the past, then data from this season cannot possibly say anything about whether he was good or bad last year. It’s in the past. He either pitched well or he didn’t.
So, at the very least, that question carries no water for the stat-baiters (viz., jeepers, supersugarCrisp, perhaps others) who want everyone who pointed out Cahill’s bad peripherals to perform the proskynesis and flagellate themselves over how wrong they were. It’s really a wholly separate issue (and one that I think has been rehashed enough times at this point that there’s little purpose in beating a dead horse).
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Let me google "proskynesis" and then reply.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Oh, okay. Right.
Yeah, I think I had the same sort of response elsewhere about that sort of thing, but I didn’t use fancy words like that.
Kinda funny, I recall in another thread someone saying that they think some people here would rather be “right” about something than have the A’s win — that sorta seems like the case with people who continue to beat this horse about Cahill.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
In this case
If being ‘right’ means Cahill is doing well, then the A’s are most likely winning.
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Being "right" or "wrong" about how well Cahill pitched last year
has absolutely nothing to do with either how many games the A’s won last year (which is still going to be 81 no matter what) or how many they’re going to win this year (because what happened last year is in the past and the past does not control the future). It’s an abstract historical question.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
No, they're really not.
You can’t draw conclusions about about things and then abandon responsibility for them when they don’t turn out that way. Anybody who said Cahill was going to get worse at doing what’s important, which is not allowing runs, was just plain wrong.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No one said that. We said unless he improved his K rate he was going to regress.
He improved his K rate.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 17, 2011 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
That's completely misrepresenting the offseason argument.
You’re looking at the final conclusion without considering any of the steps taken to get there. There was a very relevant chain of logical steps that led to that conclusion that have been simply invalidated this season.
Those steps, roughly going: Cahill’s luck-based peripherals fell firmly in the lucky end of the spectrum last season. The peripherals a pitcher can control generally stay fairly similar season to season (or at least you cannot count on a pitcher markedly improving the peripherals he can control). Given similar pitcher-controlled peripherals and more luck-neutral luck-controlled peripherals, Cahill’s superficial numbers should get worse next season (i.e. pitching just like he did last season, standard regression of his luck-based peripherals means that the superficial numbers will not be as good next season).
You’re looking at the conclusion and calling people wrong without recognizing that Cahill invalidated one of the assumptions and steps taken to reach that conclusion by improving his pitcher-controlled peripherals.
If he were pitching similarly to last season and putting up the numbers he is today, then the people arguing the above conclusion in the offseason would be wrong. That’s not what’s happening though. The whole argument is moot.
Cahill's 2011 BABIP is .260 and his 2011 BAA is .211
Give Cahill last year’s K-rate and what would his results look like? Very good.
He was very good last year and he’d be very good this year with last year’s K-rate. With this year’s K-rate, so far he’s a “top 3” contender for the Cy Young award.
You have consistently failed to give Cahill credit for the impact of his own fielding, his ability to reliably suppress XBHs, and his overall ability to induce weaker contact than average. And you continue to do so.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on May 9, 2011 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to consistently fail to give him credit for his ability to induce weak contact too
The burden of proof is on the “weak contact” people to prove that this is a skill, not upon the rest of the world to prove that it isn’t.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 10, 2011 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions
If he keeps up the low BABIP for another year plus finishes this one out like last year
I’d say he’s got the skill.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
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by cuppingmaster on May 10, 2011 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions
It's more like 5 years, no?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 10, 2011 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmmm... maybe I'm getting that confused with UZR samples
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 10, 2011 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
The rough rule of thumb I use is that if a guy isn't at least eligible for free agency, I'm not going to pay much attention to it
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
There's no magical moment where a stat becomes indicative of skill
As the sample size increases, there’s less regression toward the mean. The further the sample performance is from the mean, the further the regressed projection is from the mean.
So we don’t just have to look at sample size, we also have to look at deviation. In any given sample size, a more extreme BABIP performance indicates a greater degree of BABIP skill.
why?
I don’t think anyone can prove it one way or the other. Also, the “anti-weak contact people” aren’t even necessarily arguing that he doesn’t have a “weak contact” skill but that it wouldn’t matter much or at all to his babip, which is a little fishy.
He seems to get a lot of weak contact on the ground. His fb has crazy movement, which is a plausible explanation. That’s plenty of reason not to dismiss it out of hand because of aggregate low babip variance.
Do I have to prove that Ziegler gets weak contact against RHHs?
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on May 10, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, unless there's a study that shows that all GB pitchers get low BABIP on
GB then I’m going to continue to be skeptical that any particular pitcher has that skill just because someone on the internet asserts that his fastball has enough movement to generate GB but not enough to generate K’s. This skepticism will only dissipate as the pitcher repeats his success in this manner over a very long period of time
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 10, 2011 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
That's fine,
but again I’m not sure why you think the burden is on someone else. There’s not much babip variance in the aggregate. So what? Anyway, just looking at the numbers suggests he has the skill of limiting babip at least to RHHs (though not to the extent he did last year.)
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Well I cant tell you exactly what would have happened but I can tell you
He would have Ked 11 less batters so far. Getting 11 more outs would raise his ERA by . 73. It is highly likely that he wouldn’t have left 87% of his runners on base, since strikeouts are the most assured way of limiting runners advancing. So far he has face a deadball era offense twice (which saved him a run compared to a normal team and would have increased his ERA by .15 ) and pitched with the exception of 1 start in Chicago in all pitchers parks. So yes he would be pitching significantly worse if he wasn’t king batters (and that underpegs it because I multiplied the additional number of outs to his rate of R/out which is a rate that he got with including the strikeout). My eyeball guess is that if he had last years K rate his ERA would be in the neighborhood of 1.4 runs higher, but I don’t have the math skills to prove it.
As for the rest of the crap you spewed on the page. I have not consistently failed to give Cahill credit for the impact of his fielding (I believe I gave him credit for his fielding last year before you did). But no im not going to give him 10 runs of DRS credit for 200 fricking innings of play. That would be like judging a UZR of a player based on 22 games! 22 games and you want to say hes an amazing fielder. This judgement is especially bogus because he was only plus 2 DRS in 2009 and is on pace for half his DRS this year as he was last year… making him a merely good fielder.
Further, Cahill hasn’t been charged with an unearned run this year, in a year when the A’s infield defense is best described as OMG ARRRRRRRRRRRRRG at 3B
There is absolutely no evidence that suggest that Cahill consistently limits XBH other than him pitching in a huge pitchers park in front of a good defense.
Further, you have never explained how "weak contact’ was created, shown that it happens often, or shown that weak contact is actually good considering that it is harder to field.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 10, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One correction-- errors actually HELP a pitcher's BABIP
Which makes no sense, but it’s a natural result of the Orwellian rewriting of history that occurs when a batter is charged with going “0 for 1” when he actually reached on an error.
If it was not BABIP but rather “outs per ball in play,” having a lot of errors behind you would hurt that stat.
As for the rest, I agree… the reason why Cahill is doing well this year is not that he “isn’t regressing,” (he actually is— he’s been much less lucky this year than last year) it’s that he’s pitching much better (probably as a consequence of mothballing his crappy-ass slider and going back to the curveball which got him a lot of results in the minors). I mean, he’s seventh in the AL in FIP, for christ’s sake.
If he was named Clayton Kershaw, and hadn’t been really lucky when he came up, people would just be talking about how he’s finally living up to his status as a former top prospect.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I think people often conflate regression with results
As in equating “his luck-based stats are going to regress” to “his results are going to get worse (or better).” While this may often be true, the necessary contingent is that the stats that a player can control stay the same. If a player improves in areas he can control, you’re not going to see the effects of regression in the final results.
So far, Cahill has rendered the “he’s not as good as shown” v. “he’s better than you think” offseason argument moot by improving as a pitcher. The underlying assumptions of the argument are no longer valid.
by UrgentMirth on May 10, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
i agree that he's improved as a pitcher
but wonder if much of the change in his peripherals is simply a result of opposing hitters altering their approach.
batters know they can’t do anything with cahill’s sinker, so rather than beat the first one into the ground like they did last year, they’re taking it, working deeper counts, hoping cahill elevates something.
as a result, cahill is using his curveball more because he’s in a position to finish off more hitters. BABIP “regresses” because hitters are swinging at better pitches, K rate climbs because hitters expose themselves to more 2 strike counts.
They are laying off the sinker a bit more this year
Last year, batters swung at 42.3% of Cahill’s sinkers and 22.8% of them in play.
This year, they’ve swung at 37.1% and put 18.7% of them in play.
Eh
The difference in balls in play on the first pitch this year, as compared to last year, is basically that one extra hitter laid off this year.
Somehow I doubt that’s what’s responsible for change in skill.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
sure, im mostly just speculating
though by danny’s numbers above it looks like hitters have laid off about 20 additional sinkers already this year.
what do you think is responsible for his change in “skill”?
I already said
The curveball. His slider sucked— it was a “minus” pitch, really not an MLB quality breaking ball at all. It only occasionally worked as a diversion from the basic fastball-change combo.
Right now he has three legitimate pitches. That’s huge.
Re: laying off sinkers, my prior post was actually misphrased, so I’ll correct it. The difference is that one extra hitter failed to put the ball in play this year. BB-Ref’s splits don’t immediately tell us how many hitters swung at the first pitch (or how many of the swings that made contact put the ball in play rather than foul).
I can believe hitters are swinging less at the pitch, but I would not leap so quickly from that to “and they’re doing worse because of it.”
Generally speaking, baseball players are actually surprisingly good at intuitive game-theoretical problems like how often to swing at a pitcher’s offerings. If they’re swinging less, it’s probably either because the outcomes from swinging are worse (which could be because the pitch is better or because it’s more rarely in the zone) or because the outcomes from not swinging are better.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
agreed that the slider sucked
but he stopped throwing it pretty early last season and his peripherals remained the same.
the biggest difference i can see from fangraphs plate discipline stats is that hitters are swinging and missing at pitches outside the zone about 10% more often than last year.
maybe those 20 extra takes on the two seamer are putting cahill into more pitchers counts where he can bury his curveball in the dirt, maybe not.
he’s certainly an interesting case.
It depends what you mean by "luck"
Cahill’s BABIP on GBs is actually lower this year (.131) than it was last year (.151), which is crazy low. The reason his BABIP is higher this year (though still well below what one would expect from an average pitcher, especially one with his GB rate) is that he’s allowing a lot more linedrives this year.
Here’s the BABIP on GBs for the A’s SP:
Cahill: .131
Gonzalez: .196
Ross: .214
Anderson: .239
Braden: .250
McCarthy: .288
So the one aspect of Cahill’s performance that was the most bizarre last year (his BABIP on GBs) hasn’t regressed at all. Rather, it’s become even more extreme. If Cahill had the same BABIP on GBs as the rest of the team (.251), he’d have allowed 21 GB hits instead of 11.
I find it fascinating.
by Danny on May 10, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Has anyone noticed a confirmation bias into what is declared a line drive?
I could imagine the official scorer tending to give base hits a LD at a higher rate than an out – with all things being equal.
I would imagine this would be difficult to study anyways.
That is fairly odd, yes
I tend to view LD rate as something which is pretty much useless for evaluating pitchers, though, so the low LD rate last year was something I’d expect to regress.
It would be nice if we could get GB stats where balls fielded by the pitcher himself are filtered out, so that we can separate the (probably repeatable) part that’s Cahill’s own fielding ability from the (probably coincidental) part that isn’t.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Cahill's fielded 8 BIP this year: two singles and six outs.
I don’t think that’s going to help further our understanding.
Where do you get that data?
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Baseball-Reference Play Index
Cr# Date Batter Play Description
1 2011-04-17 Will Rhymes 1B Single to P (Ground Ball to Front of Home)
2 2011-04-23 Ichiro Suzuki Out Groundout: P-1B
3 2011-04-23 Carlos Peguero Out Groundout: P-1B (Short 1B Line) Gimenez to 2B
4 2011-04-29 Michael Young Out Groundout: P-1B (Front of Home) Andrus to 2B
5 2011-05-04 Orlando Cabrera Out Groundout: P-1B (Front of Home)
6 2011-05-04 Jack Hannahan Out Groundout: P-1B
7 2011-05-09 Michael Young Out Groundout: P-1B (Front of Home) Andrus to 3B
8 2011-05-09 Julio Borbon 1B Single to P (Ground Ball to Front of Home)
I didn't know they have a fielding play-index
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
and still can't find it
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
They have an "event finder" on the player pages
I first looked at all of Cahill’s ABs in 2011. And then it lets you filter for which position fielded the ball (in addition to many other cool filters).
I can't really follow your calculations
He would have Ked 11 less batters so far. Getting 11 more (I guess you mean fewer, right? ) outs would raise his ERA by .73.
Cahill has 1.72 ERA, courtesy of 10 ER over 52.3 IP. Even if he failed to retire any of the 11 batters he struck out, just the fact that he has 11 fewer outs would only increase his ERA to 1.85 (10 ER over 48.7 IP).
If you apply his BABIP to the 10 extra batters, he would only allow two of them to reach. Even if you were to argue to the extreme and say that both would come around to score, it would only still increase his ERA to 2.09. More likely, it would be either 1.91 or 1.74 (one additional run or two over two fewer outs).
So, I think it is safe to say that Cahill would have had really exceptional results this year even with last year’s K rate. Not saying it’s sustainable, but so far the results would have been there even without the extra Ks.
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
I definitely agree with this
Give Cahill the same K/PA as last year and leave his BB/PA and HR/PA the same (i.e. convert his extra Ks into BIP) and his FIP would only go up by half a run.
The difference between Cahill’s 2010 FIP and 2011 FIP is as much due to his decreased HR rate as his increased K rate.
The extra hits would also produce knock-on effects by moving baserunners along, though
So far Cahill has stranded 89% of baserunners, which is crazily unsustainable. More hits hurts that number.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
We *are* talking about two extra hits
How much knock-on effect can they have? One run? Two runs? Three? Six?
Or put this way – if one of those two extra hits was a grand slam, and the other a three-run HR, Cahill would still have lower ERA than in 2010
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
They wouldn't be home runs; those aren't part of BABIP
As a general rule the difference between a single and an out is about .8 runs. Cahill’s super-high strand rate might increase that a bit, but overall we’re talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 runs (I’m not sure where you’re getting only two extra hits— a .260 BABIP times 11 BIP is 2.86 additional hits), which would bump his ERA by about 0.45 or so.
He’s also made a minor fielding-independent improvement in his walk rate (roughly one less walk so far this season) and a major (though possibly luck-influenced; depends on how much control you think pitchers have over HR/FB) one in his home run rate (about two fewer home runs). Those are worth, if I’m remembering my linear weights properly, about three and a half runs more than three non-HR balls in play.
Overall his fielding-independent performance has been about a run better per nine innings than it was last year. If he keeps it up over a full season, that’s a huge improvement.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I do know that HR are not a part of BABIP
I was showing that even if they were HR, he would have a lower ERA than last yer. Which you seem to agree with anyway…
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Any reasonable method of accounting for 11 fewer Ks would leave him with a lower ERA than last year
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Does any stat factor UZR (or any defensive stat) into BABIP?
Or is that basically the mysterious Hit Fx thing?
We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

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