Dry-rot up Above
At AN, we all seem to have something in common, and if it is anything, it’s a loathing of Bob Geren. It has been well documented on the blog the incompetencies of Geren, and that is past due to move on. Further, it is not just us, former A’s, players and coaches, have come out recently about how much distaste they had for Geren. So we’ve had everyone from the fans, to the players, to those who are no longer in the organization calling Geren out. Yet, Geren is protected on high by Beane and Wolff.
This led me to ponder; has our management tree of knowledge grown old and defunct? Are they coasting on their past reputation, no longer the top of the line front office that they were portrayed in Moneyball, and now living off their image?
Should Billy Beane be replaced?
We all can admit that the front office record since the ‘golden years’ has been pretty dismal. Despite a flash of brilliance in ’06, the team has not played very well on the field. The pitching has fluctuated between good and great, but the offense has been bad to worse, with a distinctly downward trend. Every patch the FO has made to fix it seems to make it spiral deeper into the abyss. For an organization that was touted for its offensive philosophy, it seemingly has become something akin to the Giants when it comes to developing hitters from within (i.e. we can’t, therefore, we get them from elsewhere). On the team right now, we have two hitters in our starting lineup that are ‘home grown’: Kurt Suzuk and Cliff Pennington, and neither is a good offensive player.
The roots of the A’s offensive woes have to come from somewhere, with the most likely culprits being the A’s poor drafting record, (again, from a team that was touted as being draft geniuses), the organizational hitting philosophy, which has not translated into actual hitting, and the front office’s approach to player acquisitions, which has long centered around unhealthy players with limited power capacity but decent (at least minor league) on base skills. Unfortunately, that has resulted in a lot of trips to the DL, and a lineup full of guys who watch strike 1 and 2 down the middle, and swing at strike three out of desperation.
Truth be told, we do not know how much of the organization is run by Beane, or run by Forst. We all remember the rumblings the past few years that Beane was more interested in Soccer than Baseball, and that Forst was the one who was really running the show.
From a 2007 article on the subject:
For a man paid to unravel the mysteries of baseball, Oakland Athletics general manager Billy Beane spends a lot of time thinking about soccer for free.
There are as many as five – count 'em, five – hours each day spent listening to soccer podcasts ("on long walks with my dog and during my commute"). There are TiVo'd Premiership games and the heartache that comes with a devotion to Tottenham Hotspur.
Then there is the nightly tug-of-war with his wife.
"She wants to watch the baseball highlights on (ESPN's) SportsCenter. I want to watch Fox Soccer Channel," Beane said.
It might very well be a time for a major shakeup of the A’s front office, which has gone without such impetus on them, (instead harvesting faith from the remaining A’s loyal), and a new generation of brains brought in to man the ship. But, I fear that this will never happen, nor will the threat of it happen, due to Beane, his small ownership stake, and Wolff and Fischer’s complete reliance on Beane and Crowley.
The A's are dealing with both sides of the nepotistic coin, with seemingly opposite reactions, but similarly disappointing results.
On one hand, the A's have a Manager, Bob Geren, who, despite his clear incompetence, got the job and keeps it because he is a good friend of the General Manager, Billy Beane.
On the other side of the coin, the A's have a managing partner/owner, Lew Wolff, who got the team in great part because he was introduce to it by Bud Selig, the commissioner of Baseball, because he was a former fraternity brother of Selig.
But unlike Geren, who gets to keep his job because of incompetence, Wolff's dream, a stadium for the A's in San Jose, quite likely because Selig views it as a conflict of interest to show Wolff any sign of favoritism, and thus does nothing, in favor of the status quo (which suits the Giants just fine, and really no one else, just fine).
In other words, nepotism is hurting the A's in two distinct and different ways. It keeps incompetence around, and blocks the organizations best opportunity for getting better.
We have seen the organization’s medical team shook up several times in recent years. We have seen hitting coaches fired year after year for failing to turn our offense around. We’ve had other coaching staff members leave us, free agents scorn us, and prospects turn superstars once they’re out from our clutches. Aside from the stadium, the common thread is the front office. That’s where we should look, and that’s where we need to put the pressure on.
So yes, I say it. Produce or get out, Billy. If you won’t lead this team to victory, then we need someone who will. And please, turn off the Quakes game, there’s baseball to be played.
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As much as it pains me to acknowledge him....
we need an owner with the passion to win, like George Steinbrenner.
Every team needs an owner like that.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Every team needs a market like New York.
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Every team needs a market like Green Bay.
I’m not kidding. All teams should be owned and operated like that.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
zombie Steinbrenner ?
will he hire zombie Billy Martin, and coach zombie Babe Ruth?
Three yesses, no negatives.
I’d watch that circus.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
In a tragic play at the plate
Zombie Babe Ruth tries to eat AJ Perzinkie’s Brain, and expires due to hunger, and is called out.
Agreed on the passion...on that note, I'd LOVE to have Mark Cuban own our team.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 28, 2011 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
He can't lay off the outside slider
total crosby clone.
by MobiusKlein on May 28, 2011 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Well written article. I have felt, for some time now, the front office needs a shakeup as much as the manager position.
When you've played this game for 10 years and gone to bat 7,000 times and gotten 2,000 hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone 0-5,000. -Reginald Martinez "Reggie" Jackson
by Geronimo Berroa on May 28, 2011 7:14 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Compelling Comments
I think that a lot of what we perceive as A’s fans is guilt by association. To start with Geren, he is one of those career devotees to an organization who worked his way up as a manager. He was given a pass for several years in Oakland because of the multitude of injuries which hampered his ability to field the best team available. While managing Sacramento, he still was in a constant flux of seeing players come in from lower levels but he also had access to the best prospects which he had to assess and develop over time. It is reasonable to see that his communication with Beane was at a higher level due to their friendship, but that communication was something that Beane could trust, juxtaposed with Beane’s relationship with Macha who understood player productivity and brought a level of intelligence and independent thinking that didn’t mesh with Beane at times. Macha, a left brain predominant thinker took his engineering skills to baseball and woulnd’t cloud his decisions with emotion. Geren isn’t overly emotional but he comes across as both humble and aloof at the same time. His lack of response to Street’s comment was actually commendable. His lack of communication with Balfour appeared unacceptable.
All of this is to say that while I yelled, “FIre Geren Now” after the first game, he will be our manager until October. I doubt it will be any further.
Beane is guilty of his own mystique, which if her were to asked about it would probably laugh. “In Billy we trust” has gotten us to the point where his moves are scrutinized not so much for his forward thinking but currently for the sting of losing three incredible outfielders who represented the next generation of Oakland position players who have made an impact with their skills. The often injured Nelson Cruz, Carlos Gonzalez and Andre Ethier sting us every time we hear their names mentioned on ESPN or any other outlet. It’s easy to say that maybe we shouldn’t have traded for Bradley…but the point is Beane gave up the very chips that his eye for talent was able to bring into this organization or draft. I blame Beane for a lack of patience which he has given to pitcher development but was lost after Tejada made his way through the organization.
The perspective of drafting college talent has waxed and waned over the last several years but bringing Grady Fuson back was a good move. Let’s just hope we have enough talented people to help Eric Kuboda continue to make good selections.
I like Lew Wolf. Many here don’t. But his "guilt by association " which was alluded to in Monte Poole’s article this morning is interesting. Does Bud Selig hesitate in not acting in favoring a ballpark in San Jose b/c he doesn’t want to be accused of favoritism with Wolf? I think that’s more public perception than anything else. What’s wrong is the Giants " territorial claim" on a space of land 45 miles away from where they play and the lack of conviction on Selig’s part to end this mess. The A’s in San Jose makes business and MLB sense by increasing the opportunity for more baseball revenue…for every team! The reactionary stance by the Giants is myopic and selfish at best, but that is not surprising. I argued recently with Glenn Dickey about this and he still had to point out that the Bay area is the smallest two market area in the country. Rubbish, Bay Area fans will follow success and they have proved that over the past three decades when the population wasn’t as robust as it is now.
I frankly don’t think anything drastic will happen via trades this year, Geren getting fired or Wolf getting the stadium we all covet. Status quo continues this saturday morning.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
CarGo is really the only one that bothered me....
Cruz was an injury riddle and Bradley them as close to the World Series as they’ve been in 20 years. I would make that trade again.
Speaking of which, is Ken Macha the only guy to ever successfully manage Milton Bradley?
by AsFan72 on May 28, 2011 8:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll never forget Macha tackling Bradley during one of his meltdowns
Bradley was also buffered by the Big Hurt and found a friend in Swisher. Too bad he needed so much to be able to play. He took " high maintenance" to a new level.
What I failed to convey was that not only did our big 3 stabilize the staff but our position players offered stability in the lineup and on field every day. The 3 aforementioned players would have given us an outfield that and pop in the lineup for realistically 5-6 years and taken pressure off of the pitching staff due to more offensive pop given our superior infield defense ( up to this year).
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
If I recall correctly,
Macha had extensive training in a particular martial art skill. Bradley probably wasn’t real keen on getting his ass kicked on tv by an old man.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I thought it was Tae Kwon Do
Not much wrasslin’ in that flavor of MA
Tae Kwon Do, I believe?
Bathroom doors learned to fear Ken Macha.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Had a tantrum, attacked the bathroom stall with a bat, hilariously got himself trapped?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
i'm not bothered by the bradley deal but
the A’s were closer…2001 i think. would have had the yankees in 5 and gone to the WS if it hadn’t been for that bonehead jere,y giambi not sliding and being tagged out by posada
by heartstopper on May 29, 2011 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions
The Failure to replace Geren is Beane's Biggest Mistake
Everything else until now has two side of a legitimate question. Moving Either for Bradley. Moving Haren for prospects. No one could have predicted the CarGo turned as one sided as it did.
But leaving Geren there is an afront to the other players the organization and all of us fans who remained loyal even when preseason moves eliminated any real hope for a successful season.
This team can compete in this division this year. The younger players can develop confidence and more consistancy. We have enough talent to get it done.
We need a manager and a coaching staff that will get the players to believe in themselves and become better players.
There is no excuse for this team coming out of spring training and performing as poorly defensively as these guys have. They have not gotten better they have gotten worse under Geren.
If Beane does not do the right thing by the players, the organization and the fans, he should fire himself and go to work for the Quakes.
He owes it to the players and to us who pay his salary.
Thomas Walker
by Thomas Walker on May 28, 2011 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Players win games not managers
If a manager is being perceived as a deterrent to the players performance, he should be replaced. The last, most famous time a manager came on during the season was when LaRussa replaced, was it Boros or Jackie Moore? But two thoughts come to mind.
Who replaces Geren with the credentials or efficiency of LaRussa, if he is to be used as our standard bearer? Is there anyone out there? I am doubtful but truly I can’t answer that. Secondly, is there any precedence for Beane making such a move during the season? I can’t think of any. Beane has been patient through the 1st two months historically, before making a bold move by trade.
I can see Geren taking another position within the organization vs. being released by the the Athletics organization altogether. This is where Beane’s friendship intervenes, and in a good way as I think Geren has value, just not as a big league manager. He is a good case of the “Peter principle” if there ever was one.
I could see Beane bringing back Don Wakamatsu, who actually had a positive reputation before Chone Figgins and the other Seattle malcontents stopped playing for him. Beyond that, Beane values cohesiveness in the clubhouse, Geren gives Beane that but that doesn’t equate to the same degree with his players.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
The problem with replacing Beane (and Geren, to a lesser extent)
Is that the replacements might be worse. Be it far in the past or not, we know Beane has a track record of making good moves. I’m not sure if the apparent candidates to replace him could be better (or, if it’s true that Forst runs the team, we’d want him running the team considering the moves he’s made.)
To paraphrase DFA, “we need to draft better.” More talent = more winning.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
Plus, there should be more of a focus on teaching in the lower levels of the minors.
Too often, prospects are thrown in to sink or swim, without a heavy emphasis on eliminating flaws and accentuating strengths.
Coaching staffs in the minors should be larger than major league staffs, not smaller.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
They might "pick a position and stick with it" more often, too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Agree with your thoughts on Beane, disagree on Geren
Replacing a competent GM with Billy’s track record isn’t easy. Replacing a finger sniffing hack like Geren isn’t hard.
MexicAN AmericAN VegAN
I wonder how things would look now
If the A’s had “traded” Beane to the Red Sox for Youkilis and had DePodedesta take over a’s GM back in 2002.
by throwmonkey on May 28, 2011 9:14 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
...we'd have traded Youk in 2004 for prospects.
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
Excellent point
I think you’re probably right
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
I think there are a couple of things the A's could do without overhauling the front office...
Draft better. Why not hire more people to draft better? I’m looking at the A’s first round draft picks since 2000… it’s pathetic. You can buy a better staff for a few million dollars and get better hitters with more bang for the buck than trying to sign a bunch of old bums every year. $10 million on over slot players is better than signing bums for $10 million every season.
Interesting note: This link strangely has the A’s drafting Matt den Dekker in 2011. http://espn.go.com/mlb/draft/history/_/team/oak
So many people say "draft better"...
…but one would think that they feel they drafted as well as they could, and yet they still fail. To me, this strengthens the argument for a revamped front office, actually. If they could draft well they would, but apparently they can’t. If they can’t draft well, what good are they?
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
That's why I suggested a new staff for the draft...
I’m not sure how they currently structure the front office for scouting/drafting, but it would seem that they could hire some people from organizations that do draft well and give them a ton of responsibility.
by Brett Narloch on May 28, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Gotta have good information from good scouts and weigh it properly too.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe that's who they are assumed to pick?
I hope not. His numbers don’t really translate into a number 18 pick
I take that back
Every team’s 2011 picks on there are listed as den Dekker.
This is a fair question.
…has our management tree of knowledge grown old and defunct? Are they coasting on their past reputation, no longer the top of the line front office that they were portrayed in Moneyball, and now coasting on that reputation?
At some point, it becomes, “What have you done for me lately?”.
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
Wasn't it just a few months ago that we were pretty happy with the off season moves?
we just got some value back for an out of option reliever.
If we expect A’s to make some move to bring in a superstar type, they tried, with Holiday, didn’t work out. And before that, what other earth shattering move has the front office made that they have not followed-up recently?
by asfansince1989 on May 28, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
The HollIday aquisition was destined to "not work out" though.
He was a superstar rental. We need a superstar fixture. Or two.
"As the tag line of my favorite dirty joke would have it: 'Keep your hat on. We could wind up miles from here.'" ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus
I hate to say but
If getting rid of Geren means getting rid of Beane, I’m all for it….depending of course who the replacement GM is. Ed Wade isn’t an upgrade, yknow?
Not going to happen
Wolff sounds like the old grampa that is lost without his buddies. From all that has been said it sounds like Beane is playing out the season with Geren. No playoffs then Geren will be promoted up and Beane saves face. Wolff has about 0 input on the team and just does what billy tells him to do.
I find all of this a bit incredulous.
Beane will fire Geren. There’s little doubt that Geren has recieved a solid vote of “no confidence” from the majority of the team, which has been communicated to management in no uncertain terms. I rather think they are weighing options at the moment and figuring out what’s the optimal time to replace him. I have little doubt that his fate is sealed.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Geren will not be fired. He will be promoted out of the position.
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t do much for us this season.
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
question about the draft
how much is actually knowable. I mean, if you hit with a prospect like pujols or mauer and morneau, jeter clemens etc then you are set for a while.
But if you don’t hit with a player like blanton, swisher, what do you have, nothin
Put a bird on it
More like
Quick fix or wait and hope. The A’s did do many quick fix drafting in the last few years which means you draft major ready players but not impact players. A young high school hitter are the ones that are the impact bats but are higher risk.
Playing the what-if game
What if Justin Smoak signed with the A’s in 2005 instead for going to college? Would that have changed the A’s fortunes much?
right, its not just the $50,000 OMG BILLY GIT ER DONE
My question is is there some talent evaluation that can do better than the string of Pennington/brown/doolittle/simmons marginal talent?
Put a bird on it
I think your expectations are too high given where the A's typically draft
Pennington’s an above-average big league shortstop. Swisher is a huge success, both on the field and in what he netted in trade. Green, Choice and Weeks all have star potential to some degree. It’s too much to ask a team to regularly grab stars when they hardly ever draft in the top 10. I’d say we’ve done pretty well in terms of having relatively few outright busts.
by Glorious Mundy on May 28, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I get that
I know the 2003-2007 picks were later in the first round, but is there a balance of conservative to risky that can be used? I was thinking Choice was a high risk high reward guy, like mixing in people like that
I don’t have the answers.
Put a bird on it
tampa and KC
Are examples of team with many low draft picks while the Yanks and redsox are teams that can outspend on draft picks. Problems with the A’s draft over the years is where they pick and money problems. They have done a good job.
Doolittle was on the fast track to being a pretty damn good player before his knee troubles.
And Pennington isn’t the problem at the ML level.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Really? If we had 3 WAR players at every position in the lineup we'd be a .500 team?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Replacement level teams win 54 games, right?
54 + (3 * 9) = 81. Assumes pitching is 0 WAR.
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Except that it is not 3 all around
it is skewed by nature. Your top draft picks should be high WAR. Your team would be composed of several high war, several medium, and several low. But its the high war guys that carry the team.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
I'd rather have 3 WAR than 0
but the point is Penny is an adequate ML SS Doolittle is nothing, simmons is nothing, buck is nothing etc.
Put a bird on it
The A's great teams of the 70's and 80's were
all characterized by the following: superior pitching, defense, power and speed. They rarely had anyone hit for a high average, but they were always among the league leaders in homers, ERA, and stolen bases. They were also fundamentally sound.
I think Beane’s Moneyball philosophy is ossified and time has passed us by. Time to return to what works in Oakland.
by Reggiejacksoneout on May 28, 2011 9:59 AM PDT reply actions
Actually Beane's early teams were characterized pretty much the same way (with less reliance on speed)
I mean, depsite the new, cool ways to locate and secure hidden gems, the A’s most successful years under Beane were defined by Hudson-Mulder-Zito-Giambi-Tejada-Chavez, just as the 70’s were Hunter-Holtzman-Blue-Camapaneris-Jackson-Bando, and the 80’s were Stewart-Moore-Welch-Rickey-McGwire-Canseco. The difference in the three groups is the latter two were led by Hall-of-Fame managers who called on Hall-of-Fame closers to finish games.
I'm here to talk about the past.
You are absolutely right about the Hall of Fame Managers
Each of which managed to get improvement out of their players. Eckersley had to be convinced to be a closer. Players had a role and learned to rely on each other. The club house had a chemistry. It was volitile at times but the team was a team between the lines. The managers rode a “untamable beast” by keeping track of young egos in a very stressful public performing arena.
Not an easy job. Probably made impossible by a manager that seems to talk more to Beane and Wolfe than his own players.
If Geren wants to spend his days talking to the administration then give him a job upstairs and lets get a playe’rs manager. And lets not wait.
Thomas Walker
by Thomas Walker on May 28, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
We need to develop that thought!
It seems to me that current drafting is done off a stat sheet, rather than scouts’ reports – these are more expensive! However, that trade off is worth it, because the alternative is, truly, spending millions on second-rate temp hires for players. So, Charley Finley’s belief in developing a farm system is very correct – you draft as well as you can, then you teach as well as you can – the result is players like Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, etc. There is no alternative, particularly for a small-market team.
We've got bunt sacrifices, squeeze plays and base stealing
The As are not currently following the Moneyball philosophy.
Your sentiment and intentions are true.
But what it all really boils down to is the payroll budget.
I’d just like to warn all of you now: tread lightly with your anti-Beane fervor. If Beane leaves and this team spirals further into the nothingness with a GM who is even less qualified to construct a roster on a tepid budget – and you will be sorry.
by sleepingcobra on May 28, 2011 10:18 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
fair enough.
Then again, he’s always operated with a low budget. So I think it boils down to what UncleLeo said previously, “What have you done for me lately?” And that’s when you start to hear grumblings that Beane doesn’t care anymore. It’s almost been a curse-in-disguise that Beane’s teams were so successful early on. The benefit-of-the-doubt that we were so readily to heap upon him (and some still do) has worn thin.
I'm here to talk about the past.
We're all wearing a little thin.
I’m just pointing out that, even if Beane hasn’t watched an A’s game since 2008, I just really don’t see a different GM coming in and allocating resources in a markedly better way.
Ultimately, it’s about the payroll budget – nothing else. I often like to point out that if Beane had the Giants’ payroll budget, we’d be in the playoffs a good 3 times every 4 years. You know this. I know this. I got this. You got this. We so excited. Fun Fun Fun Fun.
Yet the Anti-Beane sentiment has grown to such hysterical proportions that people even deny that simple truth. All I’m saying is, thoroughly consider the alternative before you kick out a GM who has, when all’s said and done, worked quite effectively under his budget constraints.
by sleepingcobra on May 28, 2011 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That last "and" shouldn't be there.
Would there be some way to put in a 1-minute edit timer – so one could fix stupid mistakes 60 second after they hit post – sort of like a morning after pill?
see I need the 1-minute edit time to make this right.
by sleepingcobra on May 28, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I will say this, both Good Don and Evil Don were heavily amused by this.
I'm here to talk about the past.
OT but AJ Griffin had another spectacular performance
He needs to be at AA right now, and if he does the same thing there for 3-4 starts, AAA soon after that (whenever that time may be). Or even Lincecum him and skip AA altogether.
We might have something here, folks.
Jesus Christ
The guy just made his second start in High-A. Why are you so quick to rush him through levels? It’s not like he’s a hitting prospect tearing it up. He’s a pitcher, he looks like he could be a very good pitcher, and we have good pitching already.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Lincecum was drafted 10 overall.
Griffin doesn’t have the oodles of talent that Lincecum is blessed with.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
At this point it's utterly laughable to make any comparisons to Tim Lincecum
For starters, Lincecum was the 10th pick in the draft in 06 and pretty much EVERYONE expected him to be in San Francisco very quickly.
Griffin was drafted in the 34th round by the Phillies in 09, then the 13th the next year by the A’s. This is not a “fast track to Oakland” situation.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Well, nine teams thought he would get hurt first.
Which is why the best talent in that draft fell to 10. But yeah, otherwise.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Lincecum
His stuff was always considered electric, but with his small body and slingshot delivery it was questionable if he would be able to handle a ML starter’s workload.
It should be noted that his velo has been down year over year since he broke into the league. He’s been able to morph into more of a finesse pitcher and keep his overall effectiveness intact.
But I would say his long term prognosis is not good. He’s unlikely to age well.
Did you seriously cite a double Cy Young-winning first round pick as reasoning as to why AJ Griffin is ready?
sex?
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on May 28, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Irrelevant
Having a bunch of good pitching doesn’t mean you rush a guy through four levels in one season, barely giving him a handful of starts at each one.
You’re completely off the mark on this.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Are you secretly A.J. Griffin?
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on May 28, 2011 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
That's putting him in a position to fail.
I have no problem with being aggressive with real talent, but how about giving him 3-4 more starts in high-A, then see if he can handle Midland?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
If we're being reasonable, I think we could reason our way to some reasonableness:
I heartily doubt that anyone thought that:
1) Mark Ellis was going to put up the league’s first-ever negative slugging percentage.
2) Daric Barton was going to regress so hard that he put up a Mirror Universe Season™, where he does the exact opposite of everything he did last year.
3) Kevin Kouzmanoff was going to turn into a bespectacled corpse controlled Weekend At Bernie’s-style by Joel Skinner and Landon Powell.
4) Coco Crisp would stop drawing walks, forever.
5) David DeJesus would take his at bats with a hilarious miniature clown bat for the first 6 weeks of the season.
6) Josh Willingham broke into the offices at Fangraphs and Bloomberg Sports and raised his OBP .50 points across all of his seasons.
The list goes on, and gets continuously less funny. My point here, which I think you can already tell I’m honing in on, is:
A) Fire Bob Geren
B) It’s all about the payroll budget, not Beane’s “desire” or “roster construction skills with a tiny payroll budget.” About the former, we can speculate all day. About the latter, it’s pretty much unquestionable at this point that Beane is, at worst, above average at his job.
by sleepingcobra on May 28, 2011 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Add to the list
You might heartily doubt that anyone thought that:
7) Conor Jackson would turn out to be a decent hitter who can also play two infield positions.
The consensus opinion around here was that he’s terrible and Beane was insane for signing him.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You're in the minority, Kyli.
I mean, we love you for it, but not everyone worships at the altar of Conor Jackson.
Yet.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
The time will come. Oh believe me, the time will come.
I’m already getting the human sacrifice chains all clean and non-bloodstained for when the rituals begin.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Please tell me you're sacrificing Geren.
Or one of the plethora of 2B we have in the minors.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Bad mojo
You have to sacrifice something of value. Not something you were going to get rid of anyway.
If you burned an old Snickers wrapper the gods would not be pleased…
But.....we don't have anything of value to sacrifice.
Besides the new big 3.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Try a bunt
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
by elcroata on May 28, 2011 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The saint of scoring runs.
His eyebrows are independent saintlets that work with him to give him powers, much like the Planeteers give to Captain Planet. When the eyebrows combine, he is SAINT CONORJACKSON.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
You are awesome.
I too loved Conor even in the dark days when he was hated by AN, but you are the queen of Conor love.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
He inspires my soul and gives my spirit eyebrow-shaped wings to soar above all doubt and despair.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
♥♥
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
one for Kyli and one for Conor
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I liked him also
And I still do, of course.
Jack Cust: Nothing but true results…. Sac OPS: .964
by Athletics fan and runner on May 28, 2011 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm still not ready to put my faith in Connor Jackson.
The fact that we consider his sub .700 OPS to be decent speaks more about the A’s than it does Jackson.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on May 28, 2011 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Like all the best position players on the A’s currently, he’s considered good because he’s not God-awful.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
That's why I said a "decent" hitter rather than a good hitter.
You have to admit, most of AN didn’t even expect that.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Excellent summary of the issues. My biggest concern about Geren other than his
well-documented managerial deficiencies on the field is the potential impact on the A’s ability to attract top talent. The outspoken denunciation of Geren by Huston Street, a former A’s star, indicates that Geren’s reputation is not exactly a well-kept secret around the major leagues. Knowing about Geren’s rotten managerial style just might be an even more critical factor than the stadium issue in dissuading potential highly sought after stars such as Beltre from ever accepting a lucrative offer to join the A’s…..even if they outbid other teams. The renewal of Geren’s contract just might be the “kiss of death” for the A’s future free agent negotiations as well as his poor managerial performance.
Three years ago
if you wrote a post like this the Beaneiacs would respond with flame after flame. So things have changed or the Beaneiacs have gone to that great spreadsheet in the sky.
Beane is competent. Drafts and trades are mostly luck. Beane had quite a run for a few years. Now he has the reverse Midas touch with all but starting pitching. Would a change help the A’s? Sometimes change for change’s sake is actually a good thing. Right now I’d say there’s a staleness to the A’s.
by rovingralph on May 28, 2011 11:22 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
or maybe we're just tired of people like you making baiting posts like that
so we just don’t bother.
More than likely Forst has been running day to day operations for the last few seasons anyway. There’s a reason he turned down interview offers from other teams to be their GM. He wants to learn from Beane, and he’s getting to do most of the work anyway.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Do we have proof that Forst is running the team?
Not doubting it, by the way. Just wondering.
I don’t think that’s a baiting post. I have really mixed feelings about Beane. The institutional work in the area of pitching has been consistently phenomenal, and just when you think Beane’s lost his touch, he trades a Mazzaro for a DeJesus (who seems to be coming around) or turns a Lord Farquahar into a Scott Sizemore (i.e. turning a 4A reliever into a potential starting third baseman).
On the other hand, there’s Geren. It’s rare to see any manager remain in place for this long, with nothing to show for it. The only reason the A’s were ten games better in 2010 than before was that a potentially great pitching staff came of age - and that was due in part to the original scouting and to Curt Young and Ron Romanick. When Keith Smart had similar improvement for reasons that had little to do with him, he was nonetheless sent packing.
Outside of Geren, the A’s haven’t been able to do much with the big club this year. You can’t dump players who get off to slow starts, at least not for a while, and the A’s put themselves in a bind by keeping Conor Jackson (no matter how good the decision seems in retrospect) because there’s no room to maneuver barring injuries.
I was more concerned last year when both Patterson and Fox sucked, and it seemed like nobody was home in the front office. At least this year, someone is paying attention. But cronyball just doesn’t work: Managers may be unimportant in a “statistical” sense, but we really have no way of knowing how bad management affects any given player’s individual statistics. Is there a link between all the bad hitting and fielding this year, and Geren’s management? It’s a question that needs to be answered, and it’s one that the Beane Administration refuses to deal with, at least from a public perspective.
good managing cannot ultimately make up for bad play
Which is what the A’s have done half the year. Also, even though the losing streak sucked, it wasn’t like we were blown out of every game: we lost an extra inning game to Minnesota, did get blown out (because our starter pulled his oblique), and then lost two in extras to the Giants, and two by 3 runs.
This team is still capable. No one should be giving up on them.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 28, 2011 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
If the bad play is due to sloppiness in the field, not running out grounders, etc.
That’s the manager’s fault for not running a tighter ship, starting in spring training.
Wait. . .
If drafts and trades are mostly luck, why do we care who the GM is? Even better, why don’t we have multuple lottery winners come do these things for us?
Signings aren't luck, and the rationale behind trains is important.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
No dont replace Beane
Join my Quest to bring Back Faith and Family Values in America!!! http://faithandvalues.blogspot.com/
by Athletic on May 28, 2011 11:53 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Thank God someone agrees!
Join my Quest to bring Back Faith and Family Values in America!!! http://faithandvalues.blogspot.com/
I don't think Beane leaving, without more financial resources will change anything. The A's haven't changed
any of the things they have always done under Sandy, or Billy. The results have been drastically different over the past few years, but the process hasn’t. They have drafted the same types of playesr and same types of FA. Just like anything in life it is hit or miss, the last few years have just been miss.
Keep Beane
Fire Geren. We are average drafters as an organization. That really isn’t that much of a problem. The draft is kind of a crap shoot with a lot of uncertainty.
It's time for a couple more hitters
a new manager and let’s get some wins.
and someone made a good point: Macha did manage Milton Bradley well
I still think Beane is one of the best GMs, and
if we have to keep Geren to keep Billy happy, then I will have to live with it. Just too bad with all of Billy’s intelect, that he is blinded by his friendship to Geren. There might be 1 or 2 other managers in MLB as poor as Bob, but not more than that.
It's not easy to find good managers.
There needs to be tactical skill, but it’s mostly about motivation, getting players to play hard and be serious, and managing egos.
Scioscia seems to be solid. Gardenhire has had a lot of success. the old timers: Leyland and LaRussa are still good.
Who would be a good manager for the A’s?
Beane absolutely still has what it takes to be a top-flight GM
Problem is, for whatever debatable reasons, he doesn’t have the desire to be. Remember the days when he vested so much in the team that he had to ride the exercise bike during games to calm down? God that seems so long ago. Or when he would actually watch the games when Howe was here and question moves? All fans want to know ownership cares, and Beane needs to show us something to keep our faith.
by dashman33 on May 28, 2011 12:19 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Speculation of the absolute worst kind.
How do you know he doesn’t have “desire” anymore? Jesus, what are you, his therapist?
Beane's had the job since what...98 or 99?
that’s a long time in pro sports and maybe it’s just time for the organization to have a new voice.
I suspect Forst is the man calling the shots these days.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Sadly I don't have his number or I would.
I’d ring him at 3am.
“Hiiiiiiitters! Traaaaaaade for some hiiiiiiiiiiitters!”
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Okay, now I want to hunt down his number so you can crank call him.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
[ring ring]
“Forst speaking.”
“Is your refrigerator running?”
“Why, I don’t know, perhaps, let me go check—”
“Then you better start batting it leadoff! BWAHAHAHA!” [click]
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on May 28, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Ok so it was my idea, but you're much crazier (in a good way of course) than I.
You should do this. Probably from a burn phone though – I enjoy your posts too much and I don’t think inmate have quite the same posting privileges you currently enjoy. -)
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
[ring ring]
“Forst speaking”
“Is Homer Johnson there?”
“No”
“Is Homer Smith there?”
“No”
“Is Homer Brown there?”
“There are no Homers here!”
“So, that explains why you can’t score any damn runs, don’t it?” [Click]
by Mattel on May 28, 2011 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
This is excellent and you should feel excellent.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Why would you impersonate a zombie when calling him??
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
I think it would be foolish to get rid of Beane.
I can’t really fault him for having interests besides baseball, and it seems unfair to imply that he doesn’t care about the A’s simply because he has a passion for soccer. As far as drafting offensive talent, I think we do okay, but a shakeup in our organizational philosophy might be nice. If only Beane had a skilled assistant that he was grooming for the GM position the way Alderson had Beane.
Now to preach at the choir: Fire Bob Geren. Out of a cannon. Into the sun. I think the bottom line on him is that he’s just not a terribly intelligent guy in general, and he specifically lacks anything but superficial baseball intelligence. He’s had years to learn on the job, and now it is time to give up on him. Unfortunately, I think we’re stuck with him for the remainder of the year. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for 2012.
I do think it's fair to say his choice of football team sucks though.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Um, when you’re the GM of a MLB baseball team your first and main interest should be your team, period.
by dashman33 on May 28, 2011 12:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That's a judgement call.
It’s not some kind of universal truth, and I’m sure plenty of GMs have other interests which take away from the attention they might pay to their teams.
He didn't have one.
He got ejected for arguing shrimp and quiche.
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But nobody saw it because it was during the Maid of Honor's speech
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
by darooster on May 28, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've been thinking about doing a fanpost about how I was better on AN as sirbed
it’s really been all downhill since I started to let Geren manage my posts.
Barcelona FC. The football team.
It’s the UEFA Champions League Final (the best of the best club teams in Europe).
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
You follow a lot of sports
I’m pretty much down to football these days….although the fact that I’ve only seen 2 A’s games this year will not stop me from having wildly incorrect opinions on the A’s.
I don't follow them all with the dedication that I show to the A's.
I have season tickets to Blackburn Rovers FC and Wigan Warriors, and I check out the results for the cricket.
The NFL I watch if I can find it online.
I’m a sports geek.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Yeah I'm waiting for life to do that to me too.
Fingers crossed.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Now, in 1,000 words or less, explain why exactly I've moved to New Jersey. =P
But yeah if I moved to the US obviously it’d probably be one of the two US sports I follow.
Speaking of moving, did I tell you about the December invite from my friend?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
She's invited me to a big family reunion in December.
Like, the whole clan. 50+ relatives. =S
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Well of course. I'm pretty awesome.
Slightly terrified though!
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Ha!...yeah I could see how that would be a little intimidating.
but if you’re a hit you’ll be golden.
If?
If? Pffft.
Although to be fair I’ll be a hit or I’ll be buried in a ditch. I don’t think there’s a third option here.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
You should send portfolios to U.S. radio and television stations.
Foreign accent + good knowledge of American sports = intriguing to certain people in the business.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I honestly think it'd be like a US broadcaster trying to make it here.
They’d just get laughed out of the building.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Even if he had a broad knowledge of football, cricket, and Olympic sports, as well as a smooth voice and good looks?
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Well Olympic Sports he has a chance at.
But British/European sports? Nah.
Just picture in your head an English voice calling a baseball game. There’d be so many people ringing in saying “Why is this Englishman telling me what is going on? What does he know about baseball?!”
Though yes I do have good looks. =P
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I don't see it.
The Yankees have a woman in their booth.
There were a lot of smooth voices calling the World Cup, and if those voices were intelligently calling a game, the accent would only be a distraction to the worst of nationalists and racists.
Then again, maybe there are enough prejudiced provincials in the UK to make a severe ratings drop for football broadcasts. However, a good English or Scottish announcer with good enunciation would go over fine in baseball, because baseball is kind of ignored by the most ignorant in favor of NFL and NASCAR and MMA.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's more that people are set in their ways.
And those delightful Americanisms just make people chuckle when they’re used in reference to British sports.
Hold on, let me see if I can find a clip to illustrate my point.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Here:
Basically it’s seen as comical in this country. It’s not really the accent, it’s the Americanisms that people find humourous.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
That video is stupid
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
But it's not a symmetrical situation.
Americans like British accents. We have this peculiar cultural notion that Brits are smarter, sexier, and just more interesting than our own types. British culture doesn’t feel the same way about Americans.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Difference being,
that if you knew your baseball, the audience would realize it with a quickness. Then you be the most “charming” announcer around. We like different things.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I like neither of these teams
Can a meteor hit Wembley about now?
by throwmonkey on May 28, 2011 1:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
No, cos it'd damage my beloved country.
I wouldn’t be opposed to an SAS team sorting everyone out though.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I was hoping for 20 red cards
by throwmonkey on May 28, 2011 1:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I've had to sit through this boring football game, I want blood!
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Oh shush. I love 'soccer', but this game is dull as dishwater.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
It is fun to play but I've just never been able to get into watching it.
I might give it a try again someday though.
Ah you probably won't like it.
It’s something you have to be brought up on I think.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Hey Oldham..... Speaking of SAS
A crack SAS team has captured two top Taliban commanders without a shot being fired in a secret dawn raid in Afghanistan.
The 12 elite troops seized Maulawi Rahman and Maulawi Mohammed at a high-walled compound north of the remote town of Babaji in Helmand province.
Both men, who surrendered without a fight, are said to have been close confidants of Osama Bin Laden, the terror mastermind killed by US Special Forces in Pakistan last month.
Don't forget the NZSAS
they won a Presidential Unit Citation and another soldier won a VC
Delta Force was modeled after British SAS
British SAS are the Kings
The Navy SEALS don't agree.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
nor does devgru
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
And one must say, very deservedly so
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
I switched over to the Giants/Brewers game.
I was falling asleep. “Pass, move, dive.” Yawn.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I obviously haven't either, given as I missed the Gomez inside the parker.
I’m watching it on ESPN America (out of the corner of my eye) and when elcroata said Gomez had hit a HR my brain kind of went:
“Gomez. He’s fast, right? I guess it’s feasible. Played for the Twins………but they traded him……somewhere. Wait, wasn’t it the Brewers?!”
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Sign more Latin players
Don’t sign the old DH every season use that money for signing players not in the draft. This market is something the A’s should consider
Please fire Bob
I'd disagree with most of this
On Geren
It’s not really true that “former A’s, players and coaches, have come out recently about how much distaste they had for Geren.” Fuentes expressed displeasure with Geren, and Street reiterated his displeasure from 2008. John Shea misleadingly attempted to tie in a story about coaches being fired in 2007 to distaste for Geren, but the quote wasn’t a new one—it was originally published in a 2007 Slusser column, and it didn’t even specifically say anything about Geren.
As for Fuentes, I think people are leaping on his criticism due to opportunism rather than agreement. Fuentes said he didn’t have any problem with Geren until last weekend.
He first expressed his displeasure on Sunday after having been used in tied games in extra innings on Friday and Sunday. This criticism is ridiculous. Using your closer in those situations is what smart managers do; Geren didn’t have to communicate shit to Fuentes regarding that usage. Even if that weren’t a normal place to use a closer, the A’s bullpen was exhausted. Every other good reliever was either unavailable or had already been used; it’s not as if Geren was using Fuentes as a middle reliever and anointing DLS or Purcey as closer. Fuentes had absolutely no business complaining about how he was used on over the weekend, and Geren didn’t have any obligation to communicate to Fuentes that his role had changed.
Monday was a different story, and Fuentes had pretty clearly been demoted by being used in the 8th. Geren should have told him this. But I think it’s a bit silly for people to be jumping on that as a reason to fire Geren. First, that’s the way people have been suggesting Geren use Fuentes all year long; the most consistent criticism I’ve seen of Geren this year is that he’s too wedded to rigid bullpen roles. Second, it’s not as if a failure to communicate a demotion to a temporary closer is the reason the A’s have been mediocre the past few years, nor is it the reason people hate Geren. It’s just a convenient vehicle to jump on.
To be clear, I’m indifferent about Geren. I don’t think he’s a great manager, but I also don’t think he’s a problem. I wouldn’t be upset if he were replaced, but I don’t think it would be likely to improve the team’s performance. If he has lost the clubhouse, which is possible but does not necessarily follow from the Fuentes situation, he should be fired.
On Beane
Even over the past 4 years, he still gets more out of his payroll than the vast majority of GMs around the league. Whoever replaces him is likely to be worse.
One could make the argument that however good Beane is, he’s not good enough to make the A’s title contenders with their payroll—so they need to roll the dice with someone new, even if the odds aren’t great that this new person will be better. While this is a legitimate argument, I think it undersells the risk of the A’s turning into the Pirates.
On Wolff
If anything, I think Wolff and Selig being friends makes the A’s more likely to get what they want in terms of a new stadium. Selig has no problem doing blatant favors for people he likes—look at what he’s done for Henry and Loria.
But, in the end, Selig is only a puppet for the owners. They’re the ones who have to approve a move to San Jose, and they care very deeply about territorial rights.
by Danny on May 28, 2011 1:19 PM PDT reply actions 8 recs
I concur
This is exactly what I would have written if had Danny’s talent.
It's the best thing he's done
Since the Partridge Family
As usual, great insight
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Me neither. Mine just tend to get ripped by dan-o. Or recently, LS.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I paid attention to the donkey,
but not that stupid golf club.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
cRaZeeCaPsDuDe
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
That's true....I need a new place to hide.
I wonder if anyone is using that undisclosed location that Dick Cheney used to use?
It is not. =(
I will have to have some chocolate cake to make up for this disappointment.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
That describes pretty much every
woman on any television show.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
by iglew on May 28, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Says the guy who doesn't know
how to do hearts.
Some day you’ll understand.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
You mean you've been able to tear your eyes away from Steve?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Is it true his first post on An was
Ahhh…Dickens. The imagery of cobblestone streets, cragging London buildings, and nutmeg-filled Yorkshire puddings. Hello, I’m a British person.
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
AND DID THOSE FEEEEEET
IN ANCIENT TIIIIIIIMES
WALK UPON ENGLAND’S MOOOUUNTAAAINS GREEEEEN?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I'm not even so sure he's lost the clubhouse.
I mean if these guys had quit on him, that five-game skid would have seen double digits. Instead, amid the chaos, the A’s split down south and won last night. You can small sample that thing all you want, but there seemed to be a good opportunity for the players to jump ship, and it didn’t happen.
I'm here to talk about the past.
And to go further, the more I've sat and thought about it over the last few days, the more I find this Geren witch hunt distasteful.
It’s like everybody is using this as an excuse to pile on him, warranted or not.
Eh, he's done that to himself.
You can’t expect that the sharks wouldn’t move in for the kill when fresh blood hits the water.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
You can if it's the playoffs!
ZING
… too soon?
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
How cool is that?
Carlos Gomez hits an inside-the-park home run (3) on a ground ball through the hole at second base.
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Isn't he really, really, really fast?
The ex-Twin, right?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Found it. Gomez should be glad I'm not the scorer, cos that's an error.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
It looked like it took a crazy bounce down the right field wall.
But the camera angle didn’t cover it very well.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Wait, the RFer (Ross) just whiffed at picking the ball up. No magic.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Wow and than no error?
And a long time to recover. Gomez was just around first as he whiffed.
They just showed the replay from another angle. No magic.
He had the ball right near his glove between his legs and didn’t manage to pick it up. It’s an error.
An ITPHR is an error 99% of the time
So are most triples and many doubles.
They just don’t score them that way.
Really? Triples I can understand unless it's AT&T Park/Crawford on the bases.
But most doubles are legit.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Certainly it depends on your definition of a mistake
Right now, the ball pretty much has to hit the fielder in the glove (and be dropped) for it to be an error. Or a bad throw back to the IF.
But all sorts of misplays can happen. A lot of them you don’t see on TV.
Breaking in on a ball that’s over their head. Diving for a ball that they had no chance at. That kind of stuff.
I can't agree.
There are many many legit doubles. And given how few triples there are, and how many are hit by fast players to right, I’d think most of those are legit too.
Not at all
Most triples and doubles are legit. Many ITPHR come from an outfielder taking a chance on a dive and coming up empty. That’s not an automatic error.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Not when it's against the Giants
Then it’s not an error, it’s just great
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
He ain't that fast
Signed,
Ricky Bobby
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
I would quibble with several of the items
put forward as facts in the original post. But for now I’ll just address one:
but the offense has been bad to worse, with a distinctly downward trend.
It’s true that the offense has been bad since 2006 (though not as bad as it’s often made out to be), but a careful look at offense stats shows that the trend has been erratic and not “distinctly downward”.
For example, wRC+ — which I would say is the best measure of overall offense in a single number — looks like this:
2006: 97
2007: 99
2008: 87
2009: 94
2010: 97
2011: 88
For those unfamiliar with the number, it scales to 100, so 100 is average, below 100 is bad, and above 100 is good.
Other offensive stats move similarly over the same time period, bouncing around in the below average region, but not trending clearly downward.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
by iglew on May 28, 2011 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Hm
For those unfamiliar with the number, it scales to 100, so 100 is average, below 100 is bad, and above 100 is good.
How can something that scales to 100 have 100 as average and above 100 being good?
Of course, I’m only talking semantics of “scaling” as you obviously know the stat. Is that a proper use of “scales to”? I’d think that batting average scales to 1.000, for example.
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
I confess bad terminology.
I stand corrected, and trust that you all get what I mean.
I suppose a better way to say it would be “it is scaled so that 100 is average”.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Thanks for clarifying
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
I'm got a Geren fan
Getting rid of him seems like a good idea to me.
But the problems with Beane, staff and trades is mostly money. If you spend as little as the As, you have to spread the money around. And that means trading single players who might become stars for prospects. The prospects may be able to help the team as much but without having to pay as high a price.
I have no opinion on Wolff other than he owns the team, he can do with it what he wants.
The real problem that needs fixed is money. And by money, I mean the Coliseum. Moving to San Jose would make a huge difference in income and then of course in what kid of team the As can field.
A "loath" ?
“Incompetency’s” ?
Then there’s a sentence that starts with “Further” and has way too many commas.
I’m sorry, I stopped reading after that. The level of writing really shouldn’t be on the frontpage of this website.
Sure, it could be better.
I noticed, too, as I’m sure many of us did. But what the hell, it’s a blog and you get it for free and Zonis is taking the trouble to give us something interesting to read. He’s not paid for it, so give him a break.
The Internet doesn’t owe you writing assignments that meet your grammatical standards. If you want to stop reading, just stop reading. No need to come in here and be a pill about it.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
On one hand, it doesn't really matter, because we all know what he was trying to say.
On the other, this is why blogging is consistently derided, and deservedly so.
Constantly derided by prickish snobs.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Or professional writers.
It may be that there is little distinction.
It's derided for its general lack of professionalism.
Yes, this includes typographical errors.
We have stopped 'correcting' minor inefficiencies and errors from our writers. This has lead to a less grammatically-correct blog, but one that is more focussed on baseball.
Which is good. It’s a blog about baseball, not about grammar or creative writing.
I forget now who invented the word ‘groll’ (grammar troll), but ever since his front page article, there has been a noticeable drop-off in the number of grammatical ‘corrections’, and AN is for the better because of it.
One of our best, most influential writers makes numerous errors that a native English speaker wouldn’t, and yet, his overall presentations are so good, no one ever hassles him. (Nor should they!)
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 28, 2011 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
The Jewish Hammer is an angry man.
And nowhere near as good as he used to be.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Scratch that, he's picked it up massively since I last checked his stats.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
It may very well be Hebrew Hammer. I just knew he was Jewish and they made a big thing about it.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
righto.
I was thinking there was no way Josh was Jewish. :)
Ha. I wouldn't know.
And it is the Hebrew Hammer btw.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Yes he does.
He’d be our best player by approximately 1bn light years though.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Are there Jews in Alabama?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I was once in Alabama and the people we went to see
had black velvet paintings of Elvis and Bear Bryant….it was awesome.
My goodness this is drivel
I’m sorry, this whole premise is awful, and the execution is even worse.
First, if we’re gonna write on the front page, let’s make sure our grammar and spelling are correct at least for the first paragraph.
A loath of Bob Geren? You mean a loathing? Or as in “we all loathe Bob Geren”?
Incompetency’s??? The whole first paragraph is a grammatical nightmare, for the record. It makes this blog look like it’s meant to appeal to reactionary sports-talk radio lovers. Show a little respect for the readership, as well as the points you are making.
As for the idea that the front office should be revamped… That’s just unfair. This team was in the ALCS less than 5 years ago, and has a +9 run differential at the moment. That’s better than any team in the NL West, and second in the division. The A’s are a game and a half out of 1st place. Also, we are less than a third of the way through the season. Goodness, be patient. Talking about blowing shit up right now is what Mets fans do, not us.
This is the same front office that acquired guys like Anderson and Gio. They drafted guys like Bailey and Cahill. They stuck with Braden and formed the best rotation in the AL. They went out and got Willingham and Dejesus for 4 minor leaguers who don’t have a ton of promise, while Willingham and Dejesus have been two of the best hitters on the team (along with Sweeney).
This post is the same kind of shortsighted, reactionary BS that drove me from this site 3 years ago, back when people were willing to give up guys like Gio Gonzalez and Andrew Bailey for Clint Barmes or J.J. f’ing Hardy. The author of this blog doesn’t know better than the front office. Neither does anybody reading it. This post (and the poll results) reek of hubris.
The worst part, though, is the bizarre and unfounded assertion that Billy Beane is too busy following soccer to pay attention to his job. It’s absolute nonsense. So what if he listens to soccer podcasts? I listen to baseball podcasts, and I still plug in a 50 hour work week. Baseball easily eats up 5 hours of my day, between listening to the ESPN Baseball podcast on my way to work, listening to 95.7 on the way home, and spending 2.5 hours watching the game at night. Guess what, though? My interest in baseball doesn’t affect my job performance at all. See, I, like Billy Beane, am a human being who is allowed to have interests beyond my job.
So let’s all stop taking our frustrations with a slightly under performing team and turning them into a desire to completely blow up a relatively successful franchise. The Beane vilification is nothing more than an immature impulse to personalize the frustrations that go along with the downs of a, by nature, up-and-down baseball season (which, again, we’re not even 33% of the way through yet.)
by BWH on May 28, 2011 2:23 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Didn't want to sound crotchety
But the post needed a lot of editing…and as for Microsoft Word’s Spellcheck, relying solely on that is disastrous. Why not simply read and reread the post before it goes on-line??
I think what you’re looking at is four years of frustration. While there’s no question the A’s pitching program, top to bottom, is one of the best, if not the best, in the major leagues, the position players’ program, hitting in particular, is - in the words of Paul Thomas - poor-ish. Couple that with the perceived nepotism regarding Bob Geren, and a tendency to appear indifferent to the travails of the club (more evident last spring than this year), and I think it’s right to see things as problematic.
On the other hand, this management is notorious for pulling rabbits out of hats, so while I’m of mixed-mind about Beane because of the above issues, it’s also true that when it comes to finding hidden value, he’s still mostly second to none.
I just wish Geren could be promoted and another manager brought in. Sometimes change at that level really does work, at least in the short haul.
You rip him for spelling and grammer
yet still type That’s. That’s isnt a word. That is they are two words. They’re horrible contractions. They are not meant to be together like that. That is.
by Glomar on May 28, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not if you're referring to television star Kelsey Grammer.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 28, 2011 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
According to dictionary.com
’That’s’ is a proper contraction.
that’s
/ðæts; unstressed ðəts/ Show Spelled[thats; unstressed thuhts]
1.
contraction of that is: That’s mine.
2.
contraction of that has: That’s got more leaves.
by coffee roaster on May 28, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
What the hell are you talking about?
You shouldn’t rip someone’s grammar when you have no idea what you’re talking about. That someone rec’d what you wrote makes me very, very sad.
I don't think there can be any doubt
that BoBo has lost the players. It’s very clear that they have no confidence in his ability to lead, and by any proper mangement criteria, it’s time to make a change. I do not believe this includes Beane himself, nor should it. But there is a reasonable expectation that Billy take corrective action. Geren has been bad enough that even if the A’s go on an eight game tear, it would do little to change opinion at this point.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I'm cool with Geren criticism.
I don’t like Geren either. But this post was primarily about BB, and it ended with this awful kicker:
So yes, I say it. Produce or get out, Billy. If you won’t lead this team to victory, then we need someone who will. And please, turn off the Quakes game, there’s baseball to be played.
The thing that separates this post from the 99% of AN posts I read, don’t process, and immediately forget about is the frankly offensive suggestion that Billy Beane is too interested in soccer to bother with the A’s. It is absolute nonsense.
The front page of the most visible non-official A’s website is accusing the head of the organization of taking a highly competitive job, getting paid seven figures to do it, and then mailing it in. I don’t make 5% of what Billy Beane makes, but if someone accused me of shirking my responsibilities, I’d be pissed. Especially if that someone knew nothing of my work or of my day-to-day work habits. This post is essentially questioning a man’s integrity. Is it as bad as Dave Del Grande basically calling him a racist for releasing Milton Bradley? Not at all. But it is still a completely baseless attack on a man’s professionalism nonetheless.
by BWH on May 28, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I very much get your point.
But Beane did in fact hire his “best friend” for a job that said friend is no longer getting done. The criticism has validity. Like you, I rather doubt Beane will accept the status quo much longer. His manager has held sway in the past and changes were made in the organization based on his input. But that only goes so far, and I think Bobo has reached the end. Precisely because he’s getting by based on “who he knows” rather than talent. Now he’s embarrasing Beane. And everyone knows it.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
We who comment regularly on AN recently have stopped 'correcting' grammatical mistakes made by our writers. This has led to a less well-written blog, but one more focussed on baseball.
Which is good. It’s a blog about baseball, not about grammar or creative writing. ‘For goodness sake’, one can get better-written content on sfgate for free, but it shouldn’t be free.
I forget now who invented the word ‘groll’ (grammar troll), but ever since his front page article, there has been a noticeable drop-off in the number of grammatical ‘corrections’, and AN is for the better because of it.
One of our best, most influential writers makes numerous errors that a native English speaker wouldn’t, and yet, his overall presentations are so good, no one ever hassles him. (Nor should they!)
“Eye four won olney comment whan the poaster rghts stuffing that meaks mai hed esplode”
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 28, 2011 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not about correcting mistakes
It’s about bad writing on the front page in general
Yeah. Buster Olney makes my hed esplode too.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 29, 2011 5:11 AM PDT up reply actions
The loath part I admit was a mistake,
the misspelling of incompetencies was due to Microsoft Word’s horrible spell check.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
I think only God can do that.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
...and even then only with Bill's permission.
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
Not to change the subject, but...
This is the worst Memorial Day weekend weather I can ever remember!
Oh, yeah?
Here in Southern Oregon we have had rain, snow down to 3500’ and topped out at mid-50’s nearly every day this month.
It can’t possibly be as bad in the Bay Area?
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 28, 2011 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
No, it's topping out at high 60s though, and that's in the warm areas
That’s 10 degrees too cold for us at least. And it’s rained twice a week. And there has been snow down to 7000’ feet in Tahoe. This amount of rain and snow is unheard of in May. Any amount of rain and snow is very unusual in May in the Bay Area.
You two can chat while the rest of us go to the game. :)
by LoneStranger on May 28, 2011 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
So Bed, can I stop over in Hawaii on my way to the Philippines?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Jesus, the Giants have the most annoying relief pitcher ever.
Romo?
The amount of twitching he does on the mound is ridiculous.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
This game is SOOOOOOOOOOO slow
It was slow before and now with this hurt ump it’s even worse.
ZZZZzzzzz
That freaking suicide squeeze for the win was fantastic, though
And it game against the Gnats! Hahahaha
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
I didn't notice that. But he twitches his shoulders inbetween pitches. It's very strange.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Grass is greener
Nobody is going to magically pull Andrew Freidman or Alex Anthopoulos out of their butt if the team gets rid of Beane. More likely, the A’s go into GM hell, with a constant carousel of crap who leave the team in worse and worse shape. That’s why so many small market teams are such hopeless wrecks and quite a few large market teams are totally maddening to be a fan of. Good management is just really hard to find.
I’m not advocating mediocrity. I still like Beane a lot and think he remains a well above average GM. I still like the moves he makes. I appreciate that I can see the logic behind just about every one. I even liked a lot of the preseason moves last year at the time, like acquiring Jake Fox. Things just haven’t worked out for a couple of years, and the organization has had some pretty horrible luck on the farm with every single prospect getting worse last season. That’s just not something you can predict.
In fact, the only recent move I can think of that I really didn’t like was non-tendering Cust, and this season so far has shown that to be the correct move. The warning signs of serious decline were there, and while Matsui is actually worse, it looks like it was the right thing to do to move on and see if we could get something better.
It's true that you don't know what you got until it's gone
I think we’ve taken Billy (or Forst, if he’s really running things now), for granted recently. It hasn’t been hard to do so, since there have been very mediocre teams of late with terrible offensive players. But the truth is, Billy’s strengths have always been trying to exploit inefficiencies in the market and drafting starting pitching, not drafting good offensive players.
A big part of the failure the last few years was Billy trying to exploit a certain inefficiency in the market and guessing wrong: that inefficiency would be players with injury histories or aging veterans. He caught lightning in a bottle with Frank Thomas in 06, and has basically tried to replicate it every year since. The problem is, there’s a reason these specific guys are so easy to sign: THEY GET INJURED ALL THE DAMN TIME. So he guessed wrong. It seems like he may be shying away from this theory now, which is a good thing.
As for starting pitching, look at the studs Billy has gotten us. Cahill, Anderson and Gio are fantastic, and he seems to pull closers out of his ass at will. He can still draft pitchers, and I would argue starting pitching is more valuable than hitting (don’t want to start a big argument with this statement, BTW. Let’s just agree starting pitching is hugely important).
When you have a small payroll, you have to be a bit of a gambler. Billy took a calculated risk when he traded for Holliday, and it didn’t work out. He tried to steal the division and address the hitting and it failed. Again, when you have a small payroll, you gotta take risks, and if you guess wrong? You don’t have the payroll flexibility to bury it. I believe this was addressed in Moneyball. If the Yankees screw up royally (like signing Javier Vasquez twice when he can’t pitch in New York), they can just buy their way out of it. The A’s can’t.
Look at the last seven World Series champions: All were in the top half of MLB in payroll and most were in the top 10. Baseball is the sport where it’s easiest to buy a championship. The A’s don’t have the luxury of being in that club, so we have to rely on our crafty GM. And whether it’s Forst or Billy, whoever is in charge is doing a decent job. I doubt there is anyone out there who can do much better at this point.
Not firing Geren is a huge mistake, and looks bad on Billy. But I wouldn’t get rid of Billy just to be rid of Geren. In my opinion, that would be short-sighted and an even greater mistake than keeping Best Man Bob for the rest of the year.
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
Well reasoned.
I thought I had copyrighted ‘caught lightning in a bottle’ to refer to the Big Hurt signing, but it turns out it was Ben Frankling.
FIRE GEREN NOW!!!!!
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 28, 2011 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Just one of many things that ol' Ben frankled.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
He also liked to GET frankled,
as shown by his frequent attendance at whipping parlors during trips to England.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 29, 2011 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions
That is one of the weirdest damn references I've ever read, even by AN standards
Which is to say, I approve
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
Well, first of all, the idea is a non-starter.
Beane has an ownership stake in the team and the unconditional, perpetual faith of the owner. There’s no way Beane will ever be gone until Wolff is gone, so unless the BRC shoots down San Jose, Beane will be here until he chooses to retire.
That said, I agree with the general premise of replacing management when your company consistently underperforms. If you really want to advocate for that, though, you need to offer an alternative you think is better.
Geren should be fired unless the A’s catch utter fire, though, and it should ideally happen midseason. There’s almost no downside to doing this, and potentially a lot of upside.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The thing is
They haven’t been underperforming. At all. The early part of this decade caused hardcore fans to expect a serious contender every year, but given the payroll that is not a reasonable expectation.
In 2010, the A’s were 3rd in all of MLB in marginal cost per win. In 2009, 10th. In 2008, also 3rd. These numbers from bizofbaseball.com.
by thelincolndude on May 28, 2011 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Marginal cost per win is a rigged and mostly meaningless statistic.
It is far more reflective of who has money than who has management acumen. I prefer to look at how every year, the A’s have less wins than their Pythagorean record suggests they should.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Now we get to see if the Yankees offense is actually good
On this roadtrip they face Pineda, King Felix, Vargas, Cahill, Anderson & Gio all in a row, away. LOVE the idea of a weary Yanks facing BA+Gio last :)
Wow that is an awful road tip for them.
cant wait for the talk about the AL West being weak after they get dominated.
I'm a little scared of the Mariners.
They have enough money to get better in a hurry, if they can ever figure out what a good hitter looks like.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
This is true
But, arent we in the same boat? That article was right, we basically are the same team :/
Reading this thread and then looking out the window...
WTF? Heavy rain over Memorial Day weekend?
Last year the weather was mild....
but this is ridiculous. It hasn’t hit 90 degree’s in Fresno yet, which is unheard of. Not that I’m complaining. I need to send a thank you note to Al Gore for all the global warming.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
It didn't bother me that Wolff defended Geren...
…it bothered me how far he went in defending Geren. It’s pretty standard to do the vote of confidence thing even while plotting the guy’s demise, but geez, Wolff made Geren sound like Casey freaking Stengel.
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.
Eh, it's symptomatic of a very good administrator...
He’s not going to undercut a management (Beane) decision. He’ll expect Beane to do the deed.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Casey feaking Stengel 'managed' the Mets to a 40-120 record in 1962. I was there for that.
He was funny, but sometimes the joke was on him.
’Can’t anybody here play this game?’
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 28, 2011 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Fix the A's.
Start w/ moving the team. Oakland is not a viable choice for a MLB team. Hell the city itself wanted the Raiders more than the A’s. They ruined that stadium, in their zeal for Al Davis.
Do not fire Billy Beane. He is your single most valuable asset. We’ve been running out teams that by right should be 100 loss clubs for the last 4 years. They are a middle of the pack also ran team due to his eye for pitching. Name me another GM who can lay claim to having 6 pitchers the like of Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Cahill, Anderson, and Gonzalez come through their minor league in a period of 10 years
Beane has his issues(no hitters) but his positives far out weigh the negatives.
I implore you fellow A’s Fan. Reach down deep find a bigger set of balls and stand by the man who made your team relevant again.
Complacency
Too much of a feel of complacency around the A’s makes me unsettled. If you are a big league team, you need to spend like one. Why not get a real thumper at first and third? If we did that, we would be fine with this team as it is. But the two big holes at those critical corners is like a sea anchor to any offense the pop guns we have at other positions can muster.
Not sure, undecided, on Beane. I guess if forced to choose I would say: Keep Billy, kick Geren to the curb and hire a firebrand manager (I love what Gibson has done in Arizona) and spend on the corners.
Baja been here
I think the A's should invest lots of money into undetectable PED research
as long as 20 or 30 million would bring a guaranteed breakthrough that the club could use as a special advantage for its’ players for a season before free agents and traded guys spill the beans.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
Wouldn't it be easier to just stuff the detection committee with former A's personel?
Seems to have worked well for the BoTox.
" I call my puppy Liberace, because he's the peein-ist"- Benny Hill
BoTox... :-p... LOL!
I'm beginning to believe that Bud Selig wants to die of old age before he has to make a decision regarding Oakland vs San Jose.

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