What Has Happened To Building Our Offense?
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 7:00 AM PDT
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PrintIn case you missed it in Dan's fabulous recap last night, Huston Street has unloaded on Bob Geren. In a text to Susan Slusser (read the full article by John Shea, it's a good one):
"Bob was never good at communication, and I don't want to speak for anybody else, but it was a sentiment reflected in many conversations during the two years I spent in Oakland, and even recently when talking to guys after I left. For me personally, he was my least favorite person I have ever encountered in sports from age 6 to 27. I am very thankful to be in a place where I can trust my manager."
From the same article, remember Mike Sweeney?
On that same 2008 trip, according to multiple sources, Mike Sweeney was furious with Geren for not allowing him to play more in a series in Kansas City. Sweeney thought it would be his final chance to play in K.C., where he spent most of his career. On a team flight, according to the sources, Sweeney had a blowup with Geren and was released shortly thereafter.
So not to pile on the A's this week, but as long as we're talking about it, let's shift the focus slightly and talk about the real problem with the A's offense, and why this problem has continued for the better part of five years.
Not to simplify what is no doubt a multi-faceted issue, but I'd venture to say that when you are a small-market team, you can't afford to buy a team; you have to build one from within. A quick glance at the A's offensive prospects should cause us to worry. Not only are there a limited number of highly-touted prospects in the system, but the A's simply don't have any offensive stars on their current team, and certainly none from their own system. In fact, the last ten years' worth of offensive draft picks are all but unrecognizable.
Looking at the A's current roster reveals exactly three offensive players that were drafted by the A's, namely Kurt Suzuki, Landon Powell, and Cliff Pennington. And if you think any of those are a true solution to our offensive woes, I don't know what to tell you. "League-average" or "solid" at best, "lacking utterly and completely in power numbers" at worst, it's pretty safe to say that none of the three will emerge as a true A's star.
Homegrown talent is what built the early 2000's A's teams. Drafting a score of offensive talent like Ramon Hernandez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, and Eric Chavez, the A's put together a lineup that supported their stellar starting pitching. As we should have learned from Moneyball, the A's can't outbid anyone to build a team; they have to create a team from scratch. Not to mention (adding insult to injury), it turns out that it doesn't matter how much money the A's offer top-tier free agents; none will sign with or stay here in Oakland anyway. There have been entire posts written about why, but whether you choose to blame the stadium, the foul territory, the management, the lack of fans in the seats or the weird smell in the clubhouse,the A's can't buy nice things. The A's haven't signed a top-tier free agent in years.
Need proof? Here is a chart of the last ten years of A's drafts, which includes all of the position players taken in the first ten rounds. You'll notice that some lists are short; the A's have taken a considerable amount of pitching over the years, perhaps to the detriment of building their offense. Of course, it's also too early to make any judgments on players from the 2008 and 2009 draft, and there might very well be some help on the way. I'm fully aware that most draft picks don't work out, but when you have the disadvantages that the A's do, what you need most is your own farm system.
| 2000 | 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | 2004 |
| Freddie Bynum (SS) | Robert Crosby (SS) | Jeremy Brown ( C ) | Omar Quintanilla (SS) | Landon Powell ( C ) |
| Daylan Holt (OF) | Jarrett Stotts (SS/2B) | John Mccurdy (SS) | Brian Snyder (3B) | Daniel Putman (CF) |
| Beau Craig ( C ) | Marcus McBeth (OF) | Nicholas Swisher (1B) | Andre Ethier (CF) | Kurt Suzuki ( C ) |
| Marshall Mcdougall (3B) | Austin Nagle (RF) | Mark Teahen (3B) | Dustin Majewski (CF) | Kevin Melillo (2B) |
| Daniel Johnson (1B) | Stephen Stanley (OF) | Edward Kim (1B) | Myron Leslie (3B) | |
| Clinton Myers (C/1B) | John Baker ( C ) | Luke Appert (2B) | Chad Boyd (OF) | |
| Mark Kiger (SS) | David Castillo ( C ) | Thomas Everidge (1B) | ||
| Brian Stavisky (CF) | ||||
| Brant Colamarino (1B) | ||||
| 2005 | 2006 | 2007 | 2008 | 2009 |
| Clifton Pennington (SS) | Matthew Sulentic (OF) | Sean Doolittle (1B) | Jamile Weeks (2B) | Grant Green (SS) |
| Travis Buck (RF) | Jermaine Mitchell (CF) | Corey Brown (OF) | Preston Paramore ( C ) | Max Stassi ( C ) |
| Justin Sellers (SS) | Angel Sierra (OF) | Gregory Desme (RF) | Jason Christian (SS) | Stephen Parker (3B) |
| Daniel Hamblin (1B) | Joshua Horton (SS) | Tyreace House (OF) | Ryan Ortiz ( C ) | |
| Christian Vitters (SS) | Daniel Hamblin (1B) | Jeremy Barfield (OF) | Myrio Richard (CF) | |
| Mitchell LeVier ( C ) | ||||
| Rashun Dixon (OF) |
In addition to drafting pitching instead of offense, it can probably also be argued that the A's just haven't been terrible enough to have received the draft picks of a team like the Royals, or the Rays. Have the A's been so focused on pitching that they have lost sight of offensive talent in the process? Are the A's scouts missing talent? Has the A's perpetual .500 record hurt them overall in the draft? Is there a way to build up the system without sacrificing their current pitching talent? Why can't we have nice things?
Current Series
4 game series vs Angels @ Angel Stadium of Anaheim
| Mon 05/23 | WP: Scott Downs (2 - 1) SV: Jordan Walden LP: Brian Fuentes (1 - 7) |
1 - 4 loss |
| Tue 05/24 | WP: Guillermo Moscoso (1 - 0) LP: Dan Haren (4 - 3) |
6 - 1 win |
|
Oakland Athletics Wednesday, May 25, 2011, 7:05 PM PDT Trevor Cahill vs Ervin Santana Clear. Winds blowing out to left field at 5-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 70. |
||
| Thu 05/26 | 12:35 PM PDT | |
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Comments
The main problems are
1) Offense is expensive
2) Building an offense takes a lot longer than building a rotation, because there are nine spots to fill instead of five
I think it’s also fair to say that Sandy Alderson was a lot better than Billy Beane at drafting offense, as the long list of draft suck you just posted illustrates. Beane’s talent for identifying pitching can still fill this void, by trading pitching talent that fills the offensive coffers with offensive talent others have identified. Of course, that will require that Beans gets good at even acquiring offense that is verifiably good.
In summary, Billy Beane doesn’t seem very good at knowing good hitting when he sees it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
The A's in the early 90's were also one of the first team to have an Academy in some of the Latin countries,
which is actually where Ramon and Miguel came from, neither was drafted. The rest of MLB, has since created Academies and can spend more money.
Great point, demonstrates how having a real advantage only lasts as long as it takes for the other teams to catch on.
That’s what Moneyball was really about, not OBP in particular. I think it’s become harder and harder to maintain an undervalued asset because of the increase in internet communication and digital video, making it much easier for even the old-schooliest GM to keep up.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
I think it makes it harder for even new-schooliest GMs to stay ahead of anyone.
That’s why I think Beane hasn’t been able to do as well as he had in the early 2000s.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
He should have never wrote that book, giving away
all his secrets.
by theblackpearl on May 26, 2011 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Ellis was acquired from the Royals in a trade, so that leaves 3
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
Exactly what I was about to post
by OaklandSi on May 25, 2011 7:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks! I didn't even look that one up, he's been with the A's as long as I can remember.
I fixed it.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions
but it's also a famous Billy Beane "fuck yeah" trade
Johnny Damon, Mark Ellis, and Cory Lidle for Ben Grieve, Angel Berroa, and AJ Hinch?
Oakland got a down season from Damon, but 7 WAR over two seasons from Lidle and all of Ellis’ cost-controlled years. So what if Berroa won RoY.
Beane's got more than a few holes in his decision making processes
From an utterly disastrous track record in the draft with position players to an insistence on keeping a visibly incompetent manager on board because he’s his best friend. (Heck, hiring his best friend to be the manager of his team in the first place.)
Somewhere along the line the guy that said this: “You’re either rebuilding for something special, or you’re on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish,” forgot just how wise those words were. Because his team has been maddeningly in between for five years running now.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
Well, The Offense Just Isn't All That Good
Everyone knows it. I mean, we don’t have real stars because they’re expensive. Offense is more expensive than pitching; it’s very evident.
From reading Moneyball, the 2002 draft sounded like one that would be very successful. Well, it wasn’t. Swisher and Teahen have have had pretty good careers, but the others haven’t even been heard of. Jeremy Brown was a complete failure.
Well, let’s see if we can make do with sub-par offense and excellent young pitching.
Cue predictable stathead response on how total WAR from Swisher, Teahen and Blanton
made the 2002 draft a success.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
re: Jeremy Brown complaints
Jeremy Brown was obviously a failure in the sense that he didn’t have a Major League career (much less a successful one). But if that’s your definition of success, then most draft picks (even in the first round) are failures. So I wouldn’t argue that Brown was a great pick, but it’s also not something that you can really hold against a GM.
So useless, but a good CYA tactic
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
There's nothing more useless than selective hindsight. Unless you've used it to become prescient?
At most, there are 1 or 2 picks a year that are “no-doubters”, and they go to the worst teams in baseball. Beyond that, you can only make your best guess. We could spend all day listing the number of "pass"es made on Pujols, including the ~28 that STL made before actually drafting him. But what use is that?
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
I agree
Brown was a waste of a high pick, but the best they could get within their budget and he was quite successful and on the verge of being a backup catcher when he retired.
Put a bird on it
And he wasn't that high of a pick
He was 35th overall in what turned out to be a pretty crappy draft, at least at the top end. The only reason anyone cares about him because Michael Lewis decided to make him the symbol of all things Billy Beane.
by Glorious Mundy on May 25, 2011 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
What is "success"?
Moneyball is about relative success, which means spending the same amount of money to get better talent (by buying the underrated). This gives you a small advantage over teams with more money to spend. One key revelation in the book is that OBP is not only an actual skill (instead of merely a result of facing wild pitchers), but an underrated skill.
Now, what the book did not very clearly point out is that Very Good Hitters also have pretty good OBP, but they are of course expensive. What Moneyball is talking about is going after Not Very Good Hitters who actually have good OBP, and who happen to be cheaper than they’re worth. It’s not magic. It doesn’t guarantee that draft picks make it to the majors, it doesn’t turn hitters into A-Rod. Baseball is an old and well-understood game, so there aren’t likely to be dramatic discoveries on how to rate prospects.
Thus, the question should be whether the 2002 draft would’ve been better or worse without Moneyball, not whether it was good or bad. Who would the A’s have drafted instead, and where are they now?
That isn't the question at all. The question is whether the overall drafting of the A's including
2002 has been good enough to produce a championship team, and the answer is “NO”.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
We haven't been bad enough to get franchise-changing picks
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
If it wasn’t clear, I was addressing the “From reading Moneyball, the 2002 draft sounded like one that would be very successful.” Just pointing out that if you felt that way, the book probably oversold the point.
But to address your point, I’d caution against judging everything by its end result. You’re basically assuming that the A’s or any other team can just choose to draft well, and end up with a championship team. Well, who’s actually done that repeatedly?
Look at Cody Ross for example, who was .265/.316/.405 in his first 120 games with Florida, and suddenly became .288/.354/.466 in 33 games with SF, and was a key contributor in postseason play. You can put together a good team, but much of the actual results are uncontrollable, unless you’re going to say that the Giants FO knew he was going to do all that.
Let’s also look at the Rays. They got Josh Hamilton and Carl Crawford in 1999, BJ Upton in 2002, Delmon Young in 2003, Evan Longoria in 2006, all together seven years apart. Kudos to them for making good picks, but good picks also have to happen to be of the right ages and become ready for MLB at about the same time. If they were farther apart in years, you may not have been able to assemble a single team with them, and would have to give up a few (but who?!*) for younger prospects to bide your time. They also picked up Carlos Pena, whose WAR went from a series of 0.somethings since 2001 to a whopping 5.3 in 2007.
Look also closer to home. Who’d expect Frank Thomas to hit 39 HR and drive in 114 for the A’s in 2006?
That’s why they play the games, right?
- They gave up Josh Frickin’ Hamilton! I’d say that’s easily comparable to losing Ethier and/or Gonzales.
Well, they gave up on Hamilton
Because he gave up on them and decided to become a drug addict.
swisher has power and defense
but a career 250 hitter i wouldn’t say is pretty good. whereas it would be great to have him for the power compared to what we have now i would prefer someone else
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I personally would prefer
ANY power whatsoever, which is why I love Josh Willingham. At least he can hit the ball out of the park.
Swisher would be better than any hitter the A’s currently have. And he’s, what, the 6th or 7th-best hitter the Spankees have? Ugh.
Another factor why we can't sign a free agent
If your a free agent why would you want to play for Geren if you hear from other players how bad he is as a manager. Ball players talk to each other and how much has this kept players away from the A’s.
by Arcman on May 25, 2011 7:35 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
that's a good and important observation.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
A good example
Jamey Carrol who spun the A’s better offer to play for his idol Mattingly. Think of all the players that idolize Geren and wants to play for him.
I can think of millions of reasons.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Really good (sad) point - we used to be a team with a rep for clubhouse chemistry, but now
for a lot of the potential FA targets that we can afford easily (ie. Berkman, Scutaro), Oakland may seem like a last-resort destination, for many reasons – crappy facility, empty seats, stalled new-park project, aloof management, cold nights, poor media coverage…
Admittedly, good vibes come from winning, but it feels like a vicious circle these days. It would be nice if we actually offered the most money to “turn-around” superstar FAs (Beltre) so we could really know if they would come here or not, but we simply didn’t in Beltre’s case, can’t think of anyone else we’ve really gone after in that “class”, let alone been the high-bidder for. It’s time to stop wasting our money on relievers and 1-WAR position players and really make an effort for some crowd-drawing, HR-hitting, media-darling stars. Have we really done that? It seems like we talk about it, make a low-ball offer, shrug off the consequences, and spend all that money on whatever is left. That needs to stop.
We need to get players talking about us in a different way. If that means firing Geren, we should do it for that reason alone.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
We certainly didn't outbid STL for him. It sure seems like he didn't like playing in Oakland, though.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
seems like it?
he didn’t like it at all. he even said it.
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
The trade acquisitions have been disappointing too -- DeJesus, Kouzmanoff, Willingham
Barton’s had one good year and one bad year. They have Carter in AAA, but that’s really it as far as potential future offensive stars at either the major or minor league level.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
If they pan out, Green and Weeks look to be good hitters in the future.
Cardenas too, if we can find a position for him.
I’m sure there are more, but no we don’t have any absolute surefire superstars hanging around our farm system you are correct.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Nope
We have guys with potential. if they don’t live up to their potential and promise, then that’s bad.
It's an improvement from what we had though.
We used to hang our hopes of people like Petit.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Not so sure on Cardenas.
I haven’t given up, either, but there’s a real chance that all he is is Ryan Sweeney 2.0.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on May 25, 2011 8:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That might not be his ceiling, but it's the poster tacked underneath it.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions
sweeney doesn't hit for power BUT he can hit
and we need hitters. defensively he is good too
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
We got Willingham for what, HRod and Corey Brown?
I think Beane came out ahead on that one. You watch WC, Willingham will end up with a wRC+ of 120+
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
That's nice for a bat-only player but nothing special. Think Jack Cust.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
.231/.364/.322 with 1 HR in 173PA?
Willingham isn’t THAT bad.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Willingham wRC+ 108
Cust wRC+ 103
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
Willingham is better, and he’s doing it while adjusting to a new league. Cust hasn’t even had to adjust to a new division. One trick pony is running out of tricks.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
They're basically the same
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
In that case, so is Willingham
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
pwnage.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
No, the point is that there is no difference.
It’s roughly 1 BRAA. If Cust is “washed up”, “out of tricks”, and “that bad”, so is Willingham.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
If you guys are comparing them based on the year so far...
That is a gross misuse of statistics. You should have your knuckles rapped with the SSS stick.
But Josh can play a passable OF
kinda a big deal
But don’t get me wrong. Cust was a criminally under-appreciated player.
Of course it is.
We’re comparing them using the SSS parameter that jeepers set up: this year.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, you set it up.
Willingham wRC+ 108
Cust wRC+ 103
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No, that is a statistic.
“This year” is a parameter. Using the statistics from “this year” to evaluate how good they are period is using SSS. Which is why it’s not a statistically sound.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Please point out where I compared their statistics from this year
other than citing your comparison.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Yes.
Willingham is not as bad at baseball generally as how Jack Cust has performed this year.
To be honest, though, I just wanted to point out that Jack Cust currently sucks and is washed up. lenscrafters couldn’t resist into making into some way to defend Jack Cust.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
This is hilarious.
It’s bad enough to compare small sample 1 season statistics between players. It’s mindnumbingly worse to compare one player’s career performance with another player’s small sample one season performance. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt before.
Keep going dude. I have about 20 minutes to kill before the game starts.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You're under the mistaken impression that I was attempting deep statistical analysis,
or care generally much about doing so. Mostly, I like it when Jack Cust sucks.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Oh believe me. I was never under that impression.
But like I said, your Cust-hate is really really funny to me.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
As is your innate uncontrollable urge to leap to his defense.
At least we’re amusing each other, I guess.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Nah. For some reason, it's only funny when you do it.
Usually I scroll right past the typical dumb Cust stuff by random posters.
This has been fun. Until next time!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
You cited Cust's statistics this year.
Then you said Willingham’s weren’t “that bad”.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Except one of them will have a spot on a major-league roster next year
and the other won’t. In fact, it won’t be a shock if one of them is designated for assignment within a month.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
can we get Cust then?
Matsui’s wheel may fall off by then?
by asfansince1989 on May 25, 2011 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Which has nothing to do with his and Willingham's performance so far this year.
Which is what we’re talking about and which is what you brought up in the first place. You’ve been predicting Cust will suck/no one will want him “next” year pretty much since the moment he put on an A’s uniform, so forgive me for not taking such a prediction seriously now. But on the bright side, you’ll be right one of these years.
In any case, why would the Mariners DFA Cust when he’s been their third best hitter this year? He’s also turned it up lately, hitting .286/.386/.450 this month.
If they do DFA him, the A’s should certainly pick him up as he’d be a big upgrade over our current DH (wRC+ 78, the worst of any full time DH in the league).
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
This
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
The A's should certainly NOT pick up Cust
if he’s DFA’ed. There is a reason Cust and the team parted ways and it has nothing to do with wRC+. That bridge is burned. If Cust has any choice he won’t come back to Oakland. If the rules are such that we can force him, then he will have one more reason to believe that the A’s dicked him around with bullshit contract shenanigans.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
If Cust has some sort of grudge against Oakland that'll affect his performance here
then I agree, they shouldn’t pick him up.
But then again, it’s the A’s fault for preferring inferior options and using “bullshit contract shenanigans”.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally. I mean we finally had what we wanted. A HR-hitter that can take walks
that costs very little, undervalued by his previous clubs – straight out of Moneyball. But we criticized him for his low BA. He made the adjustment, losing some power in so doing. We didn’t like that, sent him down and ruined his rep.
If he was willing to let by-gones be by-gones, I’d take him back in a New Jersey minute.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
"We're" talking about what, now?
I pointed out that Cust has sucked this year, then you got your panties in a bunch over it. Oh, and started making up predictions I made in the past. You’re cute when you’re angry.
The only year anyone has wanted Cust other than the A’s has been this year, and predictably, they’re regretting it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
They sure kept it quiet.
Either that, or they decided that a career minor-leaguer should prove it isn’t a fluke.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I haven't heard anything about other teams wanting Trevor Cahill.
That must mean they don’t want him or that he should prove it isn’t a fluke.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
It means he isn't a career minor leaguer with no previous big league success, who is also eons younger.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Or it means that teams assumed he wasn't available because he was very good and cost controlled for the next 5 years.
Like Cahill.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
He isn't.
They don’t have nearly the same skill set, though. Cust’s will erode much faster.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Also
they didn’t have the same talent level to begin with (hint—Willingham has more).
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
They'll do that.
They rarely turn out to be right about talent at that early of a stage, either.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Jeepers is talking out his ass but this is incorrect logic
Draft quality varies from year to year, pick order is not comparable year to year.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Were as I agree
Cust was 30th overall out of high school, three years later Willingham went in the 17th round. So in this instance, I we can safely assume that Cust was valued higher than Willingham.
Put a bird on it
Well then I retract my statement.... Good morning!
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 26, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions
"You" brought up that Cust has been worse than Willingham. "I" refuted it.
This is what “we’re” talking about.
Not exactly sure where I gave off the impression that I’m “angry” or getting “my panties in a bunch” as I find refuting your pretty-much-always-wrong opinions on Cust to be fun sport. I remain however, forever amused at how angry “you” get over a guy who’s probably not even aware of your existence and who’s no longer on the team.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
You didn't refute it.
You cited numbers that actually contradict that position, then dismissed the difference between them as meaningless.
Also, I brought up that Willingham isn’t as bad as Cust has been this year, and you assumed I meant that I was comparing both of their current seasons.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
It is meaningless. It translates to 1 batting run above average, like I said.
A tenth of a win. What is your definition of meaningless?
Also, I brought up that Willingham isn’t as bad as Cust has been this year, and you assumed I meant that I was comparing both of their current seasons.
What else could it mean?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
That Willingham's talent level is not equivalent to Jack Cust's current season statistics?
Cust has been in decline since his fluke first season, and is just now finishing it off. Willingham has been a model of consistency (if oft-injured and not amazing), and will be right back where he always is after he adjusts to the league (unless, of course, he gets hurt again.)
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Ignoring the faulty analysis of "trends"....
Cust put up a 135 wRC+ last year after a 108 wRC+ the year before. There isn’t even a decline “trend”!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
If you give him a pass on sucking out loud for the first month of the season in AAA, then sure.
His power, which is the only useful thing he does other than not hit, is well on its way out the door.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Miss the Cust debates on here.....
No other subject since has taken over for some great dialogue….I guess Cahill or Carter’s defense come somewhat close…….
Josh Willingham will be a better player than Jack Cust this year
Whether he plays LF or not.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I meant Cust as an A's member, not in 2011
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
The Cust love fest continues
I would take the good Cust from a few years ago when he was a good player.
as in cust 2009 > willingham 2011
if you just say cust > willingham, we all assume you(cupping) mean this year.
by MobiusKlein on May 25, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm saying if Willingham puts up a 120 wRC+ in 2011 he'll be about as good
as Jack Cust was for the A’s during his tenure overall. That’s nice but nothing special.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
If Willingham were a DH.
But since Cust puts twice the ADR in half the innings – I think it’s safe to say Willingham > Cust.
by sleepingcobra on May 25, 2011 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, Willingham's about a half win better considering defense and positional adjustments.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
And what about Baserunning?
Do you like the new Bsr on Fangraphs’ dashboard? That favors Willingham by a bit, too.
All in all, Hammer’s three last 3 fWARs were 3, 2.5 and 3. which = ~2.8
Cust’s were 1.9, .9 and 2.3, which = ~1.7
Willingham is quite a bit better.
by sleepingcobra on May 25, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Im not a big fan of it since there really is no depth component from what Ive read.
Basically a ball hit to CF is a ball to CF whether its a pop up behind 2b that the CF gets or a ball caught on the warning track.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Cust's WARs are affected by the fact that he played in the field for most of those years, except 2010.
For example, in 2009 + 2010, he was docked a combined -43 runs with fielding and positional adjustment. If he played as a strict DH, as he should’ve, the positional adjustment would just be around a net -35. Hence, it’s more of a half game gap between him and Willingham.
I haven’t read up on BSR yet and don’t know enough to comment on it.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
er...should say half a win*
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
And baserunning!
Cust is 9.8 baserunning runs below average for his career. Willingham is 2.3 below average for his.
(sorry, just wanted to use the cool new fangraphs stat)
by Glorious Mundy on May 25, 2011 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
apropos of nothing, in 2009 Rajai Davis was 5.3 baserunning runs above average
Sure it’s not nearly as important as hitting and defense, but that’s pretty impressive!
But....he's a terrible base runner.
It must just be about speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed and nothing else.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Well, yes, speed is a rather important part of baserunning
It can make up for a lot of bad technique/decisionmaking.
by Glorious Mundy on May 25, 2011 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
This.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
It would have been nice
To have hung on to Either and Cargo. To me the A’s have some nice spare parts on offense, but they need either 1 super star or 2 guys at least well above average to anchor the middle of the order. there really is no player other teams really fear. Green and Weeks look like more of what they already have nice peaces that you can win with but not the middle of the order run producers that are going to carry a offense.
ogallalabob
Definitely
If we had CarGo and Either in the lineup instead of, say Matsui and Willingham, our lineup could look like this:
1) Coco Crisp CF
2) Daric Barton 1B
3) Carlos Gonzalez LF
4) Andre Either DH
5) David DeJesus RF
6) Kurt Suzuki C
7) Kevin Kouzmanoff 3B
8) Mark Ellis 2B
9) Cliff Pennington SS
and we'd be bitching about how the A's haven' t made the playoffs since 2003
or won a playoff series since 1990.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Why? Ethier was better in the Majors in 2006 than Bradley was.
Higher OPS, more games. Why would having Bradley over him mean the playoffs?
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
don't forget defense
I don’t think Either can jump high enough at the wall to bump a ball over the fence.
by Oaktown Shutout on May 25, 2011 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure, but not nearly enough to say we dont evem make the playoffs
with Ethier over Milton.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, Ethier wouldn't have been playing much in Oakland in 2006
Highest he’d been was Midland. Not even Sacramento yet.
So yeah, I think it’s safe to say Ethier doesn’t help them get to the playoffs in 2006.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on May 25, 2011 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, Ethier played more games than Milton in 2006, and had better numbers!
2006: Ethier played 126 games for the Dodgers, batted .308, OPS .842, and hit 11 homeruns. His numbers were better than Milton’s in 2006, when he was a rookie! He would have been a huge help in 2006, I was surprised too!
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not what I'm saying, though
The Dodgers gave him a chance to play in the majors that year. The A’s rarely bump a guy up straight from Double-AA to the big club.
Most likely, Ethier would have spent half the year in Sacramento and then come to Oakland in the 2006 season if he was tearing it up there.
Remember them only giving Carlos Gonzalez about two months in Sacramento before bringing him here in 2008 and him stinking, possibly because he was rushed?
The Dodgers took a gamble on Ethier in 2006 and it paid off for them.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Gotcha...that's probably true too.
The A’s got Milton instead of bringing Ethier up.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, and we took the proven Major Leaguer, traded the prospect, and made the ALCS.
Paid off for us too. Things could have gone differently and we might have held on to Milton as well. I’d have liked his 2008 year with TEX to have been with us instead. Plus no way Geren wrestles Milton to the ground in 2007 and tears his ACL after that ump threw a racial slur at him. That was a freak accident. Hindsight isn’t even 20/20 – it’s pointless.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
We'd all have loved the season Bradley put up in Texas if it was here
But there’s no way it would’ve happened here.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
But, aren't you forgetting the major part of the trade?
We got the Dodgers best hitter, Antonio Perez, to play 3rd base!!! He put up some whopping numbers for the A’s in 2006.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Congradulations you found out that some proscpects don't pan out.
But Perez was a highly valuable component of the trade. He was an very well regarded prospect who had performed very well in a brief MLB trial, and could play every position on the diamond. Ignoring the value to the trade he brought is foolish.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep
My thinking was that he could have just as easily ended up like Ethier, only we needed a 3rd baseman, not another OF, right? It sometimes doesn’t work out the way we plan.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Well at that point the extent of Chavez's health problems wasn't 100% known either.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Ethier would not have come up with a phenomenal coordinated handshake routine with Swish.
by Billy Frijoles on May 25, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not...
But even if he comes up mid-season and plays half a season, he helps as much as Milton does. I think Bradley gets too much credit for that 2006 is all.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't
Nobody here can say what Ethier would have done with the A’s.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Totally agree...no way to project or predict that
which means we can’t say we wouldn’t have made the playoffs without Milton. I just think people remember Milton doing more that year than he really did is all.
I don’t really begrudge that deal that much though, they went for a final offensive piece for an OF prospect, just didnt turn out well long-term, it happens.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
But the playoff run was 2006...
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions
What I'm saying is he spent almost all of 2005 in Midland
There was no reason to expect him to play much in Oakland in 2006 had the A’s kept him.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Got it. Makes sense.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
this is a cheap shot but... still a funny milton moment
I was trying to find video, but instead here’s a recap: Sunday, April 16, 2006
D’Angelo Jimenez also homered, a drive to right that popped out of Milton Bradley’s glove and over the fence when he collided with the wall. Jimenez stopped between first and second just as first base umpire Jim Wolf signaled the homer.
“I thought it was a home run off the bat,” Haren said. “A lot of guys don’t get to that ball. You can’t fault a guy for going all out.”
<a href=“http:// ”http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260416111" target="_blank">http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260416111" >
http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260416111
by Oaktown Shutout on May 25, 2011 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I wrote an article on that...I was surprised at the numbers too, but you are 100% correct
In contrast, Andre Ethier has been an absolute stud for the Dodgers the last four years; he is also the walk-off rival of Marco Scutaro, except with the career .294/.364/.495 line instead of Marco’s .266/.337.385. In the very season he was traded, Ethier played twenty more games than Milton Bradley did, batted 30 points higher, with almost as many home runs, and a 30 percent higher slugging percentage. In his rookie year!
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Link
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2009/9/18/1035557/mortgaging-the-future-to-pay-for
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, Milton was horrible in the playoff series we won
1-13 in that series.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Which we got swept in.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly...the otiginal point was making the playoffs and winning a series
Which both have absolutely zero to do with the Tigers series.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Meh
Overall Bradley had one of his best seasons up to that point in his career, though he was hurt for close to half of it. He still helped, though a larger factor was Frank Thomas going back to being The Big Hurt.
In the playoffs most of the team won the Twins series and Bradley didn’t do anything, but the roles were reversed in the next one against Detroit.
It was always about trading a guy who wasn’t ready to contribute yet (in their eyes) for someone who was, that season. That and thinking Antonio Perez was going to be something.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Agree 100% with the last paragraph there
I dont begrudge that deal at the time.
Bring back Hammer.
by OaktownPower on May 25, 2011 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Another completely unmeasurable, "gut feeling" opinion, I know
But Milton Bradley brought an edge to the A’s in ‘06 (in my opinion) that can’t be measured strictly by statistics. He had swagger – an “we’ve come here to kick your ass” kind of mindset that poured over into other guys, as well.
Again, I realize that this kind of thing can’t be proven or measured statistically and therefore gets dismissed here on AN, but I’m a firm believer that mindset and attitude contributes to wins and losses much more than we may think.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I'd agree with this.
Look at the championship teams from the 70s. They had swagger and talent and attitudes. They didn’t always get along, but they knew they could and should and would win.
Not everyone has to be like this in the locker room. Quiet guys can still feed off the energy from the other ones. That’s why a veteran presence is important, and preferably one who isn’t quiet or keeps to himself.
Now, Bradley had other issues as well, perhaps related to his outgoing personality, but I think we need someone who can breathe a little life into the locker room and maybe teach the young players what it’s all about so that they can take over as leaders when they get older.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I think there's something to the idea of a general attitude/swagger/presence
Of course it can’t be quantified, but you know it when you see it.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
2006 was our best year in the BB era as far as getting closest to a championship.
And Milton was a part of it. We know that. We don’t know what Ethier’s role would have been. Period.
Let’s not talk about 2002 and what might have been:(
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
I think the point is that we can be reasonably sure that he wouldn't have had a large part
because players don’t typically jump two levels in one year.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's my guess too. Moreover, prospect bust-rates are so high,
it’s hardly even worth thinking about at all when you’re competitive and have a chance to add a Major League all-star (or near-enough). Plus we got a Major League utility-guy as well. I’m one of the few that still likes Milton, I think he’s got a raw deal from the media. Watching him and Swisher together is one of my fondest A’s memories, next to beating the Twins that year. Aaah, winning…
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
That was a good year.
I think Bradley’s personality and the choices he made about what he said drew the media to him, which makes sense because controversy sells. I still think he’s a nutcase and sees things that aren’t necessarily there.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Considering this outpouring of anti-Geren sentiment
is there ANY way Beane and Co. can really think “yeah, keeping Bob here is a good idea”? These comments from Street, Mike Sweeney, etc aren’t just sour grapes, they’re condemning statements…
by Johnny Bravo on May 25, 2011 8:04 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
I don't think the potential replacements are a whole lot better
That’s my biggest problem.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
perhaps, but I'd hope they'd go out-of-organization to find someone
rather than just cycle in Skinner (ugh) or someone like that
by Johnny Bravo on May 25, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What about Jim Fregosi as a "Grandpa Jack McKeon"-type?
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's a good
Jim Fregosi story.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
literally any human on earth is better
I forgot about that Cubs game where he didnt double switch and had to PH for Bailey…..he should have been fired immediately after that.
This....
Geren came in 2007. If, by 2010, in his fourth year, he still doesn’t understand the double switch he has no business whatsoever being the manager of a major league baseball team.
What’s obvious, though, is that Beane should have replaced him after the 2007 season. The players knew by then that this guy was a dud, and Beane should have known it as well.
Especially when a former member of the coaching staff has spoken out in the past too...
From John Shea’s article on SFGate.com…
After that season, three coaches were fired, including Bob Schaefer, who was quoted as saying, “I didn’t want to come back anyway,” and added the staff’s experience wasn’t always put to the best use. “I was happy they hired me, but I was happy they fired me.”
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I knew Sweeney was pissed off
You could tell every time he faced the A’s afterwards (Seattle) – he acted like every game was Game 7.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
would be a great hitting coach
Sweeney was given credit for helping the A’s hitters when he was with the team and after he left their hitting went down. Many times you heard Fosse talk about what a good coach he is for the younbg players but once again Geren blows it by pissing off a vet. Makes me wonder which A’s free agents will sign with the A’s next year like Willingham or DeJesus if Geren is still around. Why would they stay in a toxic situation with Geren as manager,
Why in the hell is he still not fired yet?
He seems just like an awful human being. Beane is making himself look like a nepotistic imbecile here by keeping him.
Not as easy as it looks
Beane can’t fire Geren because it will make him look like a poor GM plus Geren is best friends with Beane. Most likely both families are close and Beane would take much heat from the wife. What it does mean is the A’s are stuck with Geren until the end of the season or if they drop like 10 games under .500. Beane can promote Geren to a front office job making it look like a promotion and not a firing. From some of the quotes it looks like Beane is distancing himself from the matter so he doesn’t need to say BF was correct.
Geren is not a bad person just lack management skills very common in the business world where you see CEOs run their company to the ground. I am guessing you are being sarcastic in saying Geren is a awful person.
I'm not a Geren fan
But is he really that bad?
Really?
Earlier it was even suggested he might be scaring away draft picks.
Geren’s management is a problem and I hope his days are numbered but he’s being scapegoated for just about everything now.
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on May 25, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think he scares awy draft picks, but I can see where established stars would rather play elsewhere because of his management/personel handling style
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
not draft picks
They sign just to play and Boras guys for the money.
It's a good point, and needs to be said. The team isn't going to play significantly better if he's gone. BUT...
I think the incredulity comes from the certainty that we’d lose NOTHING if he went away. At least there would be room for a pleasant surprise, something A’s fans haven’t had since the Big Hurt. It’s more about image now than wins. Fan-base image, media image, FA market image. And what if we DID win, say, 2 more games because the better reliever was warmed up in time? 2 more wins could be the difference, just ask 2004.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
they don't need to play significantly better...
but an exta five wins would do wonders in this division.
besides… they would play significantly better. less mental errors, more effort, better concentration
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Organizational philosophy and outcomes...
Not an expert here, but is there any chance that maybe some of this is the result of organizational offensive philosophy rather than individual offensive talent? We used to be known for training (and drafting) younger hitters to be patient at the plate, cultivate a disciplined strike zone, and draw pooploads of walks as if they were high interest bonds. Can that actually degrade the offensive abilities of hitters in the long term by stripping them of their agressiveness?
I really don’t know, personally, but it seems we’ve had several players with power bodies and decent eyes who can’t do anything more than hit singles and the occasional double. I wonder if that’s a result of how they’re raised in the farm system.
Dan Johnson’s case was what made me think abit that way simply because I was familiar with him as a college player (typing from Lincoln, NE and a Husker) and he seemed to lose his approach at the plate entirely while with the A’s.
by Drone on May 25, 2011 8:39 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I've wondered this too, like in the situation of Michael Taylor...
In the Phillies organization Taylor had one year in A ball and one year in AA/AAA with a .968 and .944 OPS, respectively. His first year after coming over his OPS dropped to .740, and is around there this year, albeit in a SSS.
I know Taylor has dealt with injuries in his time with Oakland, which has something to do with the drop in production, but he just doesn’t look like the same hitter he was in the Phils organization. Is this because they tried to change him as a hitter? Or rather would Taylor have struggled because of injuries and being in AAA full time no matter where he went?
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on May 25, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
an injured player will always look like a different hitter
Bigger question to is if the Phillie’s knew he was injured, or if they felt like something about his routine made him likely to get injured. Course I always wonder this when someone gets traded and then has an injury shortly there after.
But there’s no way to know. So you just consider it bad luck anyways. Hopefully Taylor get’s healthy and starts to mash again.
by Oaktown Shutout on May 25, 2011 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I see what you are saying, I'm just not sure that the injury is the only reason for drop off.
Even when he has been playing and mostly healthy, his numbers are way down. He couldn’t have been hurt in all 127 games last year, could he?
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
Yeah, and IIRC it was talked about how we changed his swing-mechanics, took him out of his comfort-zone.
I would like to have some sort of formula that measures and holds accountable the Minor League coaches, Major League Coaches, Major League Managers, and Umpires. Unemployment is too high for seniority to be the lone factor.
I can’t help but wonder who is responsible for Jose Bautista’s change of approach. He never took walks, never hit more than 20 HRs, and suddenly he becomes Superman? If it’s possible for a candidate that looked so bad on paper, how can we be so consistently unlucky with guys that show a stronger skill-set on paper?
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
I remember something about them changing something with Taylor, and if it had anything to do with his struggles they are crazy.
Why would you mess with something that is very very very far from broke?
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
In Arizona Fall League Don Mattingly (who managed the team Taylor was on) apparently found something in Taylor's swing...
…that was limiting him somehow – and no, I don’t know if it’s just the “Stanford swing.” It might take a little time to see if that’s been worked on and how much of a difference there may be from a change.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I cant say for certain what it was. But I can tell you that Taylor was dropping his back elbow in the AFL and it was screwing up his swing IMO
He was also doing it in spring training when I saw him though.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I just think it's incredibly hard to judge how good college and high school numbers...
translate into big league numbers.
Why didn’t we draft Morneau, Pujols, Piazza, or the other dozens and dozens of really awesome players that we didn’t draft? Well… every other team passed on them too. So is Beane an idiot or are they all idiots? OR is it just really hard to figure this out.
The on the flip side, look at how many sure things aren’t very good. Wieters, Beckham, etc… sure they’re young, but they flame out at very high percentages.
Name one team that consistently turns out high quality hitters and actually still has them when they put up big numbers.
So what we’ve lacked is a big time star hitter… a Giambi if you will. Well, that’s probably where Beane’s original philosophy prevented that from happening. He took sort of high upside people who would be ready quickly instead of the high upside hitters. I’m not saying I know which style works best, but intuitively I think that drafting toolsy, high upside players will get you more stars, but fewer overall major leaguers.
And money plays an important part too. But to me it’s a terrible excuse. If you don’t draft Bryce Harper because you don’t want to pay him $5 million or whatever then in 3 years you’ll end up paying $5 million for some free agent bum instead. Paying big signing bonuses up front seems to be a better investment than the alternative. At least then you have legitimate prospects and it’ll save a ton of money in the future.
So all of my rambling leads me to ask a few questions:
1) Are the A’s worse at drafting offense than other teams?
2) Did the A’s actually draft the college types instead of high upside guys? If so, does drafting high upside guys lead to more stars?
3) Has anyone done an analysis on the eventual success of those who are paid over slot?
I completely understand what you are saying about the flame out rate...
But Matt Wieters may not be the best example. He has been great this year. A little above average on offense, but possibly the best defensive catcher in baseball. Although he isn’t hitting 30+ homers a year like the hype surrounding him said, he is still a great player.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on May 25, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I want Father Desme back.
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
Me too...
…I was pretty sad to see that year’s draft.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on May 25, 2011 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
BTW, thanks for putting this together, BBG...
It’s kind of fun to look at the drafts. I’m gonna go dig up my Omar Quintanilla cards now…
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe his prayers are behind these "Geren" revelations?
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
we should get a sandwich pick for that or something
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Oooh a geography joke. Nice.
And yes, Kent is south of me.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
thank you.
Save it for the fast money round, Paddy.
by Leopold Bloom on May 25, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
WE NEED A MANAGER,
NOT A HAM-SANDWICH-ER!
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Now I'm hungry
Time to kill something and eat it.
( hmm, that lettuce plant looks good.)
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
carnivore. I bet that lettuce is shaking in its...um...leafy, leafy boots.
Save it for the fast money round, Paddy.
by Leopold Bloom on May 25, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I won't kill it all at once. I'm a plant torturerererer!
I’ll just peel off enough of the outer skin for my sammich. Sort of like how we raise veal.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
A miserable farm system
Another bust is Michael Taylor the 5 tool star from the Phillies organization. Giving up Blanton wasn’t much but again got nothing in return.Another great Beane trade was dumping Wallace(313 for the Astros in the Holiday debacle. Essentially losing two quality players and winding up with nothing
He was a bust, now is pseudo-miraculously resurrecting
But still striking out at a very high rate…we’ll see how this pans out but the track record looks like El Busto.
by Billy Frijoles on May 25, 2011 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
this
His fielding aligns him with Carter in the DH player pool.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
So trading Holliday for him was bad then?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Not in the sense that Holliday had no intention of signing a FA contract with us.
We would have probably ended up with two picks( a crap shoot at best) if Matt remained all season. This was a gamble by BB to maximize his return. We also received Shane Petersen, who is still in the program, and Clay Mortensen in the trade.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
I now wonder if the CarGo for Holliday trade wasn't more of a....
dump Huston at any cost move. I did question it at the time, but was happy that BB finally got a “star”. It reminds me of the trade to get rid of T-Long, in which we had to include Ramon to make it happen.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Um that was also a very good trade.
Kotsay was awesome until his back let go, PLUS…
Jamie.
ungh.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Mark sleeps well at night
[and with a smile, I might add]
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Let's make HER our new manager.
(Phone Rings)
Jamie: “Who wants to warm up for me?”
Bullpen: “I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do.”
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
I agree that the trades were good, but I am not so sure that CarGo was the main reason BB began trade talks.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Here.
From The Baseball Cube:
2001-04-17 15 Day Disabled list - (-) 2001-05-01 Activated 2003-05-23 15 Day Disabled list - (-) 2003-06-05 Activated 2007-03-28 15 Day Disabled list - (Herniated Disc in back) 2007-04-23 Transferred to 60 day DL. 2007-06-01 Activated 2007-08-17 15 Day Disabled list - (Lower back pain) 2007-10-01 Activated 2008-05-30 15 Day Disabled list - (Lower back soreness) 2008-07-01 Activated 2009-04-04 15 Day Disabled list - (Back) 2009-06-02 Activated
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
But the question was ...
Why?
Could it have involved his abuse by Jamie?
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
"abuse"
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
The fact that he was injured suggests that quotations aren't neccessary.
She DID IT!
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
The A's could've dumped Street for value without having to include Gonzalez in a trade.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
He was at a low value, due to return from injuries, right?
By including CarGo and Smith, BB optimized his value. I’m just saying that BB wanted to contend, and also wanted to get rid of a cancer to management.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
If they really wanted to optimize his value they'd have let him accumulate saves
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Not if they wanted to cut and run from him.
They had no intention of breaking ST with Huston on the roster.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
OK, but that's not optimizing his value
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
This. The main problem with the Holliday trade was Street was worth two B- prospects by himself.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
But Carlos Gonzalez is God!!!
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm still waiting to see if Outman can continue what he started to show in 09
and if Cardenas can be serviceable before saying we got nothing in return for Blanton.
wait, we didn't trade Blanton for Taylor.
We traded Wallace for Taylor. Blanton got us Cardenas+others. And i’d still do that trade.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Cardenas hasn't amounted to anything so far
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I just checked.
17BBs/16Ks.
Dude is clearly trash, we should release him.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
plus they got experience........
invaluable
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
So what. We got rid of a poorly performing expensive pitcher for a B/B+ spec and an undervalued C+ spec and a C
you do that every day of the week.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not a big believer in managers, either way
That said, I think it might behoove us to hire a name manager for the sole purpose of recruitment. Whether it’s for draft picks, free agents, trades, whatever; I think having a well-known guy down there can help us in that way. That guy might cost us a couple wins a year, but I’d think that if we even lured ONE bigger name player or draft pick to sign here when they might not have otherwise, it’d be worth it.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
Ever changing relievers
From the article: “Brad Ziegler, the longest-standing member of the A’s bullpen”
I hadn’t thought about it like that. Ziggy, the face of the franchise?
by JohnDoe on May 25, 2011 10:03 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Wasn't it only yesterday that he was making his debut?!
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I still remember where I was when he ended his hitless-against streak.
Kaiser parking lot north of Santa Rosa. We had stopped to buy a boobie pump from the pediatrics department on our way up to Eureka to show off our new baby Hunter.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Imagine how many scoreless innings Ziggy could have gone if only Geren knew how to manage a bullpen
by Oaktown Shutout on May 25, 2011 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
That's why my A's jersey has MY name on it
The only thing I know for sure is that I’ll be with the A’s next year
I'm playing for a contract this year.
I’m thinking about hiring Scott Boras as my fangent.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
you can't quit.
Save it for the fast money round, Paddy.
by Leopold Bloom on May 25, 2011 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
When I re-upped my season tickets a couple of years ago
They offered up a free Home Jersey of “any A’s player since 1969”…I choose Kevin Thompson #51 because we shared the same last name..Sorta funny how anonymous the names on the roster have been the last few years.
Now I want to cry. :( :(
Wasn’t Danny on the team, like, not too long ago? A week, maybe? It can’t have been that long, I refuse to believe — Goddamn.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
I hate to think it, even worse to say it but
If geren is not gone this year, then beane has to go too.
I would be very strange if beane is not acting on this because of the movie.
Yes.
and more than one.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
There are more dysfunctional franchises....
The Mets are in Madoff-land; the Dodgers are in Selig-land; the Pirates and Kansas City have been stuck with inept management for years and years; the Marlins have Jeffrey Loria.
But amongst the functional franchises, the A’s are right near the bottom.
We just need Larry Ellison to buy the team.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I don't know what the feeling is among AN members, but I could go for Ellison or even more preferably, Mark Cuban.
I know Cuban gets on some people’s nerves, but man, the guy LOVES his team and it shows. I’m not a Maverick’s fan, but I love how enthusiastic he is.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
This.
Some people hate this kind of talk, because it becomes a discussion about what owners “can do with their own money”, and “you don’t know what goes through an owner’s head”, and “easy for you to spend someone else’s money”, etc. etc.
But yes, no doubt, having an owner that wants to win more than anything else makes a tremendous difference. It makes all the difference in the world, really. Mark Cuban knows he’s going to make money. But that’s not his primary concern – winning the NBA championship is what he wants more than anything else.
Lew Wolff and Mr. Fischer (sp?) know they’ll make money. They could sell the team today and make loads of it. The problem is, they want to make more of it. Now, there’s certainly nothing wrong with that – it is the American way, after all – but their priority will always be “how can we make more money” OVER “I want to win the World Series.” Always. Is that illegal? No. Is it unethical? No. But it sucks when you’re a fan of a team that has Wolff vs. someone like Cuban. Winning is not the number 1 priority with A’s ownership, and it shows.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
by Vacafan on May 25, 2011 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 on all accounts.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Cuban would be a friggin pipe dream
plus he could just write a check and buy the team.
He did try to buy the Cubs and the Rangers, though. That would be cool
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
I heard an interview w/ Cuban on 95.7 last week (don't remember who the host was)...
but the was being asked if he would be interested in buying the Dodgers. There was sort of some nervous laughter…I got the feeling he’s thought about the idea but couldn’t really say anything publicly without getting in trouble with MLB.
It gave me THIS feeling when thinking he still has interest in owning a team in MLB and the pipedream that he could someday own our A’s…
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
can you just see him jumping from the stands and arguing
with the homeplate umpire… better yet out to second base and kicking dirt on the umps shoes ala BM.
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd take almost any successful Silicon Valley entrepreneur over these real estate guys
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Ha ha
The worst of the not that bad franchises.
The A’s have been pretty much a .500 team for the past 5 years. The variation has been pretty much just noise.
I thinks there’s something to be said for Beane since he can cobble together an average to mediocre team even when he is rebuilding. The problem is getting over the hump in the good years (like now). He just doesn’t have the financial muscle/disregard for the future to take on a suicidal contract for a big name player.
The acquisitions are all high upside/high risk (like Bradley, Big Hurt). Not surprisingly, a lot don’t work out.
The only other option is to wait for the stars to align and get a bunch of good prospects coming up at the same time. If something clicks with CC then you could have a monster. Suddenly everyone is a genius again.
I like Carter's future, but he's just one player.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
That was just a "for instance"
Prospects are almost always lottery tickets – most of them never amount to anything. CarGo is a good example of how a guy can look like a failure and then suddenly he’s a star. And the A’s weren’t the only ones to trade him away. 90% of the time a guy like that doesn’t pan out.
Fortunately/Unfortunately he A’s have never been bad enough to get a “sure thing”.
The trouble is that there are no other "instances"
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
The A's are going to win at least half their games this year
At least 6 other franchises won’t.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
What makes you so sure that the A's will win half their games?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
yah well she's cheating on us right now with the Slegna
by Oaktown Shutout on May 25, 2011 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
No prob. We'll just bring home some flowers, chocolates(dark of course),
and a chick-flick.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Ugh. Chick flick. That's a high price to pay.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Well...
what if it included Jennifer Anniston, or Kristen Bell?
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Meh...they'd probably discuss their feelings
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
All in the art of communication and negotiation.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
oh, my!
How could I have forgotten her! (I haz a special spot in my heart for redheads)
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Redheads.....
They are so crazy! And often not in a good way…..
Often wrong but never in doubt
"The whole thing was a piece of theatre. Billy had told Art how and where to stand during a game so that the players would... take strength from his countenance, because when Art sat on the bench... he looked like a prisoner of war."
-Moneyball
I lof her
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Everytime the Mrs wants to watch one of Amy's movies,
I relent to watching it with her. Oh, the sacrifices we make!
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
I would watch her as she watched paint dry
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe you meant Rachel McAdams.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
No, but doing some research,
I don’t believe I would tell her no either.
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The pirates getting to .500 may argue with you. The astros farm system may argue with you, and on and on and on
by Slide Giambi on May 25, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't the Astros' farm system widely regarded as terrible?
See here, for example.
by Glorious Mundy on May 25, 2011 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
That was my point, there are a lot of things worse in MLB than the A’s
by Slide Giambi on May 25, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure that there are many worse franchises from the perspective of long-term viability
If revenue sharing magically ceased to exist, the A’s would be one of a handful of teams whose viability would be questionable — Rays, Pirates, Brewers, Royals would be some others.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
That is why if I am another owner I would vote on the A’s to move to San Jose because that is one less team I would probably be sending money to in revenue sharing. I know they are worried about territorial rights coming back at them, but there are very few if any teams that could get another team in their market. Maybe brooklyn, but that is about it.
by Slide Giambi on May 25, 2011 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes.
Ladies and Gentleman the Huston Astros
Also on the list, the Mets, the Dodgers, the Brewers.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Just a thought,
Isn’t Beane’s stubborness with Geren very Al Davis -like?
Making a bad decision and then holding onto players (in this case a coach) until it pays off so as to not lose face…and come to think of it…..
getting rid of players and coaches because of personal feelings.
IN other words, letting feelings get in the way of business decisions.
That is a plague of al davis management.
It seems it is a rash developing on billy beane as well.
heh Soo....
gratefuldude is Fuentes, to your Gio?
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Haha..Byrnes weighs in
His tweet: Bob Geren was one of the best and most communicative managers I ever played for #JustSayin
Bring back Hammer.
Byrnes only played for him in AAA, right?
I have to imagine that its different there and managers probably due deal with the players differently. The players outlook on how the manager deals with them is also probably different when they are still trying to make it to the big leagues.
by longtimeasfan on May 25, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
this
I actually like Geren as a player development manager. His style fits well in the Minors.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
agreed.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Excuse my dumbness
But how is that different? Communication is communication isn’t it? Or are all the Majors players primadonnas?
You'd think communication would be communication anywhere, but minor league managing jobs are more about teaching and less about winning games.
Perhaps when he was in the minors, he talked to every player because he was going around the field before games and helping instruct. Perhaps he didn’t adjust when he got to the majors and his role changed?
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
And Minor league teams WANT to put players in unorthodox situations in order to determine the best place for them in the majors,
as well as figuring out the player’s mental/emotional responses to those situations.
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
Geren in the minors = good.
Geren in the majors = bad.
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
pray tell
what is geren good at when teaching???
by heartstopper on May 25, 2011 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup. Isn't it interesting that the ex-A's commenting pro-Geren
are all involved in TV/Radio in come capacity? Company line. What if John Kruk or Eric Karros suddenly started bashing an ex-manager? You’ll never see it. It’s just not the way it’s done — it would seem ‘unprofessional’ or immature – and these guys all want to continue/advance in their broadcasting careers.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Is the keg at second base empty?
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
who cares?
Oh, you meant Byrnsies job.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Did it blow up?
Did it go away?
Did their generator’s gas tank run out?
by LoneStranger on May 25, 2011 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing in sports is that it pays to be really bad or really good. There is no in between. Look at the Giants, they were really bad or a couple years and they get Posey and Lincecum. I know Tampa should have taken him and Lincecum was 9 or ten pick , but if you are in the middle for a few years like the A’s were, there are no good options. The problem seems that fans will get really pissed you are so bad, but if you are mediocre, it is just another season.
That doesn't follow.
The thing in sports is that it pays to bereally bad orreally good.
The only thing you have to say in favor of being really bad is that you might follow it up by being really good. But that doesn’t mean it pays to be bad. It sucks to be bad.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
If you're really bad, you get high picks and a better chance at getting top talent for the future.
that’s the point.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Yes, or you could be the Pirates or Orioles
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
The Orioles are actually much improved. In another division, where you don't face the Yankees, Red Sox and
D-rays a combined 57 times, they might be competitive.
by theblackpearl on May 25, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
High picks is a consolation prize for sucking.
It still doesn’t mean it’s good to suck.
That’s like saying it’s good to unemployed and broke because then you can collect welfare checks.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I didn't say it was good, did I?
If you’re not winning, you’re either mediocre or really bad.
At least if you’re really bad, you get a high pick.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Slide Giambi said "it pays" to be bad.
Being really bad is worse than being mediocre.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
I think "pays" is in reference to profit-sharing revenue.
Rich owners who hold onto their money get paid more to let their teams suck. By trying to compete, we get a smaller percentage.
va-ma-NOS! at-LET-i-COS!
Right but if you are making like 125% of the poverty line, its not like you can live and youre still working three jobs.
Better to be unemployed.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
That is my point, the best way to improve is to get as many high draft picks because then you get the chance to draft well. Of course it is not good to suck, but if you are looking at being mediocre and drafting 15th all the time then the odds those impact players are there, then good luck
It's a good point.
DFA had a fanpost about it.
Yes, ask the Red Sox
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
OK, ask them too.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I wore my A's hat during the Giants series
I got a lot of crap from Giants fans. Funny thing was, I was in Oakland!
Time to move to a viable market.
that's sad
I live in Palo Alto and went to a bar to watch the game. Nothing but sycophantic Giants fans who think Tim Lincecum (“Timmy”) is made of magic.
He does smoke magical plants
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
by Tutu-late on May 25, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This... if only we sucked enough in the draft to get Trevor Bauer. Same magic dust.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 25, 2011 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Timmy is cool
He has the body of a greek goddess
I thought it was Ed's hairpiece...
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry...
Instead of “Ed”… I should probably say “Bobby’s over-protective and stupid Dad”.
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on May 25, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
been done before
see poor Ehren McGhehey in the finale stunt in Jackass Number Two
I would post photo but not sure if I would get banned
Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.
by johnjahafanclub on May 25, 2011 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Batting slump
Let us not forget the possibility used in some past occasions – to call up position players from the 40 man roster for a “trial run”, while sending down temporarily a pitcher. That can be done when there is a number of young pitchers on the team. At this moment, the A’s need help with offense, so why not call up Weeks, Cardenas, etc. for short stints with the Big Club, to see how they would face major league pitching. However, I suspect that Bob Geren is not flexible enough to communicate with his bullpen crew and have them collaborate in that project. We always come up against the same problem: the Team is not working as such, because one man is jerking everyone’s strings.
Let go Bob! You are too uptight, and make everybody else on the Team feel wound up in knots! Maybe what you should try is getting drunk with the whole A’s Team, to develop some good cheer and brotherly love and understanding! As it is, the A’s are looking like a big organizational joke, due strictly to lack of human perception in Management (that is, I am not talking about technical handling of pitchers, catchers, batters, fielders – we can all see the effects of mishandling in the A’s jerky performance).
Am I crazy?
I always thought one of the fun things about being an A’s fan was rooting for a team that can’t buy a pennant. I want to win as much as the next guy (or gal), but being a fan of a team like the Skanks, Red Sux or LAAAAAAAAAA of AAAAAA of AAAAAA isn’t much of a challenge.
I do admit it sucks to watch guys leave the A’s and tear it up somewhere else. Can I blame this on Geren as well? ;-)
by RudiFan on May 25, 2011 12:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You're crazy. I liked the A's in the 1980s when they had the highest payroll in the game.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 25, 2011 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
All "We were competitive" does is increase fans anxiety.
Winning is the only way to find relief
Life insurance s..cks. I'm now worth more dead than alive.
You know, maybe its time to have a change in the guard as a whole
Perhaps a new front office entirely.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
+1
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I still like Beane
That guy did too much right for me to suddenly think he’s forgot how to run a team. The past 2 years the team wasn’t good, wasn’t built to win. Still, hitting .500 in a rebuilding year isn’t bad, esp compared to the rebuilding processes of other teams (recently, the Brewers, Reds, Royals, Orioles, Pirates, Astros, Indians, Tigers, many others are in the midst of, or have emerged from very long rebuilding/sucking ass periods).
Beane’s moves and attempted moves this offseason made sense. He went for Berkman and Beltre (both would have been great). He did GREATLY overestimate the going rate for Iwakuma but at least he backed off and picked up McCarthy. Even David Purcey via Rajai was a good pickup. DeJesus made sense at the time, especially because we gave up jack shit for him. Same with Willingham (and really, it’s nice to have one guy that we can be sure will clear 20 jacks…Kouz with 16 as our team leader last year was unbearable).
Heck, Moscoso even seems like a great pickup, for basically nothing we may have gotten a good ML SP.
He is building a solid team and this rebuilding process has been WAY less painful.
So we haven’t been able to draft hitters well. Who’s lineup is full of hitters they drafted?
His achilles heel is of course his hiring and relationship with Geren. However I don’t think that outweighs the good he has done, and is doing for this franchise. I shudder to think what Steve Phillips or Jim Bowden or any other “proven” MLB GM would have done with this hand that Beane was dealt.
by Billy Frijoles on May 25, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, anyone else know about this?
I’m listening to CT on 95.7…he just reported how Geren told media members yesterday that Fuentes was no longer the closer and that Grant Balfour would be the closer until Andrew Bailey gets back. The media then goes to Grant Balfour to ask him how he feels about being the new closer, and uh…
Balfour has no fucking idea what they’re talking about.
Huge fu**ing face palm. God damnit Bob.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Not sure if I mentioned that, but yeah, I remember reading articles the past couple days reporting Geren saying that.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes. In fact he insisted everyone knew it all along, implying that Fuentes was lying or misunderstanding.
Because Fuentes said it had been his understanding from day one that he was the closer, specifically in response to the question as to whether or not he and Geren had ever discussed his role on the team.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on May 25, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
WTF is wrong with Beane
I know he is smart, why is he acting so dumb
Join my Quest to bring Back Faith and Family Values in America!!! http://faithandvalues.blogspot.com/
that is awesome.
How is this not his nickname on AN?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
because AN likes beer bongs and doesn't like Bob Geren.
"Bob Geren DOES communicate!
He just can’t help that no one else understands the language of the pheromones his fingers give off"- ChickenStanley
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 25, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I found a few good ones for Manager Bob Geren last time..
It was Garbage _ _ (forgot what the blanks were lol)
How bad is it that two former players felt the need to speak up and bash Geren?
I was like “ouch!” when I read Huston’s comments last night.
(Sorry if i’m repeating. Didn’t feel like reading 300 comments.)
BTW-Who’s going to tonight’s game?
hi.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
huh.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
How long of a losing streak would get Bobo fired?
I have a feeling the team is teetering on the brink of a break down, the starting pitching finally gets tired of carrying the team, players starting to press, and then mass injuries. If that happens, and the season goes down the drain, maybe we take Bobo with us.
Geren will not be fired this season
The A’s are not good enough to win 10 in a row, but not bad enough to lose 10 in a row either. They will most likely finish the year right around .500 again.
My friend compared us to the 2008 Blue Jays with Geren as John Gibbons
Such an apt comparison…now all we need is our Cito Gatson to come in and go 51-37!
It is a good comparison
But John Gibbons had a singular quality in that he always looked like a wino nodding off in someone’s doorway. The rheumy eyes, the unflattering lost weekend stubble, the dazed expression….Bobo may be a lot of things but he doesn’t look like a bum (yet).
by coffee roaster on May 25, 2011 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
IF offense suck!
As much as we jump on Willingham and DDJ for not producing, all 5 of our OF are in the top 6 on the team in OPS, only Suzuki is hanging with them. Our IF just simply suck! Penny is leading the IF with a 620 OPS. At this point a typical BoCro year would fit in and actually look good in comparison!
Penny hits well for a SS
The other 3 positions are who have been totally deplorable. 1B, 2B, 3B. We need better hitters at those 3 spots. All we need are 750 OPSs from those 3 and we are golden.
Its really funny that Swishers face is at the top of this post....
…because the way he’s hitting, the Yankees might not vest that club option and he will be on the market. Um, hello our new/old RF for the next 3-5 years?
Because if he hits like crap in Yankee Stadium he's going to come back to Oakland and tear it up?
also, $10M is nothing to the Yankees and there are no better options.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
If he's homegrown, yes
FA, not sure if they will keep him for sure, look at guys like Boggs, Clemens, Wells, all liked players, all major contributors to their championship, all went somewhere else when the Yankees had better options.
If you’re home grown, then it’s a different story, like Bernie Williams, Andy Pettit, probably now with Jeter, they will play as a yankee until they suck, and maybe play another year or so
by asfansince1989 on May 25, 2011 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Ask a hard core Yankee fan about Swisher
And they get very reverent towards him, “he helped make baseball fun in new york”, he was a breathe of fresh air in the clubhouse, he salutes the Bleacher creatures in the OF. The NY Media has really played up his contribution to the team during his tenure there….He really is of the Petit, Jeter, Williams, Munson type player to a common NYYankee fan. Case in point the all-star voting stories a couple years ago with Swish…..He will be wearing pin-stripes for a while.
The better argument is the Paul O'Neil comp.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 26, 2011 4:41 AM PDT up reply actions
That is a better way to put it, thanks DFA
Swisher has reached a Thurmon Munson/Paul O’Neil status with Yankee fans.
that picture is no good. I do not like it.
Save it for the fast money round, Paddy.
by Leopold Bloom on May 25, 2011 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Beane backs Geren
http://twitter.com/#!/pgutierrezcsn
Of course, we knew this. Gonna need a lot more turmoil to change anything.
Nice to have a team that won't complain much
team full of
1) talented but young guys who don’t know what’s good, and don’t know to complain
2) washed up vets who are happy to have a job and don’t want to rock the boat
3) new FA who either don’t feel like part of the team, or just stopping for a cup of coffee and don’t care to be part of the team
4) Injured players coming back after A’s took a flyer on them, see #2
5) Matsui, who can’t speak English
by asfansince1989 on May 25, 2011 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The last time that Beane fired a manager mid-season was...
Oh wait, it’s never happened. Even if he decides to make a move, I doubt it happens this year.
Hmmm
Paul Guttierez tweets that the whole team, including Lew Wolff, are in a closed-door meeting right now.
Interesting
Good to see Wolff there – although for all we know, he’s there to back up Bobo.
by coffee roaster on May 25, 2011 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
he lives in LA
I assume he’s been at all the games
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Heyman on the situation:
Geren is the best friend of GM Billy Beane, so everyone knows he isn’t going anywhere. A year ago Beane told one baseball coach, "Bob is the best manager in baseball.‘’ It’s possible Beane may have been showing his support for Geren more than providing a precise assessment, but the coach was taken aback by the glowing praise.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Heyman doesn't seem to grasp what happened over the weekend
Brian Fuentes always was known for having guts on the mound. But he showed a lot of courage criticizing A’s manager Bob Geren over what Fuentes saw as a lack of communication. Fuentes said, in fact, that it was "unbelievable.’’ Fuentes, now 1-7, was coming into tie games when it was his understanding he was the closer until Andrew Bailey returns.
He came into tied games in extra innings when all the other good relievers had already been used or were unavailable. It’s not as if Geren had replaced Fuentes as closer with DLS.
Lots of people don't seem to.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Tonight's lineup, from John Shea's twitter:
No Matsui, Jackson, Kouz, Suz A’s Crisp CF, Barton 1B, DeJesus RF, Williham DH, Sweeney LF, Powell C, Ellis 2B, LaRoche 3B, Pen SS, Cahill P
Not bad. But the A’s should really DL Kouz. They’ve essentially been playing without a backup infielder.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
What's the point of leading with the guys who aren't starting?
Seems like a over-eager attempt to stir shit up before his guest-gig runs out.
I don't get it either.
Shea isn’t an A’s fan though.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Covert Ops
He could be a sympathizer with La Resistance.
I'm glad SuSlu is returning soon
Even though the Sharks lost
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 25, 2011 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
AN, wanted to get some quick info on trades for a fanpost I'm going to write...
Can players drafted in 2010 be traded as soon as the 2011 draft has taken place?
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
One year moratorium
So, I think that means yes.
It's one year after they sign
So, if Choice signed on August 15 (I can’t remember when he signed), he can’t be traded until then. Except as a PTNBL, as you and Danny mentioned.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Ahh got it.
Thanks Everyone!
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on May 25, 2011 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think players can be traded at any time, if teams want to.
The ones who were just drafted are just designated as PTBNLs and announced later after they can be legitimately traded.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The PTBNL has to be announced within 6 months of the trade
So you can’t trade a guy within 6 months of drafting him.
ah didn't know that, thanks
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on May 25, 2011 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Offensive inflexibility
Wanted: New Batting Coach, Manager
Responsibilities: Teach BUNTING to move baserunners and get on base, hitting to opposite fields, making contact for hit and runs, pinch hitting contact hitters for strikeout players, and creativity to score runs and take pressure off starting pitching staff.
Starting date: As soon as is possible, so as to remain in playoff contention.
Recommended candidate: Joe Morgan – smarter than any three of current staff put together.
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