The A's Second Base Problem
by Nico on May 14, 2011 10:31 PM PDT
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PrintJust a quick primer on why the A's are stuck between rocks and hard places, without much soil in between, when it comes to 2B.
We all hope Mark Ellis, the longest-tenured Athletic, an extraordinary fielder and consummately professional player and person, can find the hitting stroke that made him worthy of starting every day at 2B. If he simply can't, however, and continues to hit around .181 too much longer -- and perhaps more importantly, continues to look every bit like a .181 hitter -- then the A's will need to look at other options.
For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, Adrian Cardenas is no longer playing on the infield either at 3B or 2B. Perhaps he is no longer in the 2B mix simply because that position is blocked at AAA by Jemile Weeks. Perhaps he is no longer there because the A's just don't feel he can handle the position well enough to play there in the big leagues. Whatever the reason, the reality is that the A's could not call up Cardenas to play 2B because to do so would be to put him at a position he hasn't played lately, knowing that when he did play there he was not considered a sure bet to stick there. A pity, because Cardenas is tearing up AAA to the tune of a .361/.415/.496 line and it goes without saying (or would have) that the A's could use another good bat in the lineup.
So that leaves you with Jemile Weeks, who is also thriving at the plate in AAA (.330/.429/.491) and profiles as a better 2B than Cardenas does. Weeks has also been playing there all season. Now 24, Weeks is old enough, and has enough minor league experience by years, to be deemed "ready" or "not rushed" as a prospect, though on the flip side injuries have cost him so many games each previous season that he has actually appeared in only 202 minor league games, logging 796 total ABs. But still, it's enough that he could be considered ready and it wouldn't be a huge stretch.
Trouble is, what do you do with Mark Ellis? Ellis is limited because as good as he is at 2B he is not able to play SS or 3B and as a result is not an option to slide into a backup infielder role. If he's not your every day starting 2Bman, he's probably released altogether without much room in between.
And if you cut ties with Ellis, you are banking on Weeks not only being ready but also on Weeks staying healthy, and history suggests that is not necessarily a good risk. Perhaps he would only need to be healthy until Adam Rosales returns, but as Kendrys Morales, Rich Harden, and countless others will tell you, you might want to see full health before you depend on the timeline. Your recovery time and recovery level may vary.
What does all of this add up to? Perhaps that the A's will stick with Ellis, through thick and thin, at least until Rosales' return is imminent. Or maybe that the time Ellis has to turn things around is strongly correlated with a AAA coach's call to the A's saying, "Jemile's ready for a one-way ticket to Oakland."
Ellis' lack of versatility on the infield may actually be working to his advantage right now, because he can't lose his full-time job without losing his job entirely. Or it may be that the longest tenured Athletics' tenure is on the verge of ending -- something you feel each time you catch Ellis' eyes after he sees another infield pop up, weak bouncer to 2B, or swinging strike three.
All I know is that I cannot overstate how much I love watching him play 2B and I find myself appreciating each great play he makes as if it were his last -- because someday soon, and maybe very soon, I think it probably will be.
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Ellis’ lack of versatility on the infield may actually be working to his advantage right now, because he can’t lose his full-time job without losing his job entirely.
This is exactly it. Unless the A’s trade or release Ellis, which is highly unlikely, Ellis will be the second baseman until the end of the season, which is kind of sad because I would very much like to see Weeks get a shot. Our prospects aren’t getting any younger, you know. Carter, Weeks, Cardenas, Taylor, Donaldson, and Sogard aren’t exactly “babies” at this point.
Donaldson is regressing right now, which is sad, especially because Stassi isn't really lighting it up either
Suzuki is struggling, Powell cannot be a starting catcher even if he wanted to (for a long list of serious health reasons), and I have no idea whats happening with Gallaraga.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
I think this is as good as Suzuki will get in his career. I don’t think he’ll improve offensively anymore. Powell is a good backup so I have no problem with him. Donaldson either needs to learn a new position or Beane should trade him.
Learning a new position will not help Donaldson,
his bat is cold right now, and if it stays that way, only Catcher will save him.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
I wouldn't say Suzuki is struggling right now
He’s had a rebirth since his daughter’s birth, both at the plate and with his throwing, more akin to his best season a couple years ago.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The "small sample" retort only makes sense
when someone is presuming to draw conclusions about a player’s true value or projection going forward. Nico and Zonis are explicitly discussing how Suzuki has been since his daughter’s birth, so yeah, of course that’s a small sample.
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
And probably a small child.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Find the difference
Suzuki last-10-day line: .239/.310/.376/.686
Player X 2011 stats: .237/.312/.378/.689
(Player X is Carlos Gonzalez)
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
That's not a fair comparison, elcroata
You and I both know that PatrolCraft’s line is Coors-aided.
by el generico on May 15, 2011 4:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Recker would make a very good backup catcher in the major leagues. Powell’s not bad either though, he’s just really really slow.
Unfortunately Recker is not on the 40 man roster
So Donaldson or someone else would have to be exposed…but I don’t think C is our worst problem right now. Does anyone have the stats of where our Cs fit compared to the league? Seems to me most Cs are doing worse than ours. It’s just not a good offensive position at this point around the league (my theory).
The benefits of Ellis at 2B for a team of ground ball pitchers should be considered. This exposes the weakness (to me) being 1B and 3B. I do not understand for the life of me why Barton is still hitting 2nd. Slide him to 8th and platoon him, start LaRoche at 3B, bat DeJesus 2nd.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
I have to disagree
Kouz and Barton are just as important to the defense. I have to imagine any offensive improvement by Weeks, for example, would far outweigh any defensive problems.
Barton’s still hitting 2nd because only Jackson and Sweeney have better OBP than he does. He still draws a lot of walks.
Stassi seems to be the replacement for Suzuki when the time comes
And is probably 2 years away at least. So, I’m not TOO concerned with his struggles right now.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
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by cuppingmaster on May 14, 2011 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions
and we remember the discussions of Suzuki's ups and downs whist in minors.
alaska A in northern idaho
Gallaraga was lent to a Mexican League team.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on May 15, 2011 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Weeks and Cardenas should be up and auditioning for the 2B and 3B roles.
We are not gaining any value out of those positions right now, so we would not be losing much by promoting them if they do not perform well. On the contrary, if they do perform, then we will gain a lot. There is little to risk and much to gain. Also, both prospects are doing well right now at AAA, are healthy, and are old enough that they should not be hurt by the call up if they do need to be sent down eventually.
I do not think we should just wait. If we simply wait, we will be sacrificing games for just the sake of time.
And Buan is not here to make Ellis’s singles into inside the park home runs anymore.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
The A’s aren’t the type of organization that would simply release Ellis in May. If he’s still on the interstate by June 1 and Weeks keeps tearing it up in AAA, he needs to be brought up. The problem is that Ellis can only play 2B so he can’t really be an utility infielder. Cardenas to be brought up as well. Matsui should be the one to go so that Willingham can slide into the DH role and Cardenas can play LF. However, releasing Matsui would probably make the A’s look pretty bad.
Interestingly, there are several non-baseball things that are hampering the A's in a sense
Unlike what Beane liked to say in Moneyball, he does have an attachment to his players (see: Chavez), and that might be keeping Ellis on board. But the A’s are the type of org that should be able to release non-performing players.
For Matsui, I suspect that a combination of factors will keep him around even if he fails. From being a ‘high profile’ FA signing in the off season (for the A’s at least), to wanting to come to Oakland, and especially the revenue and attention generated in Japan.
For that latter point, even though he would cost a fortune, I wonder if it would not be a wise move for the A’s to go after Darvish next year, even though pitching wise we are stacked, since it would give us an instant superstar, and an instant grasp on Japan. We might even be able to then flip one or more of our SP for offensive talent.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
Darvish will cost a fortune...way more than Iwakuma
I also doubt Darvish would want to play in Oakland. Unless a new stadium is built, I still don’t see any high profile free agents wanting to come to Oakland.
The coliseum is very pitcher friendly
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2011 7:46 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't get why a Japanese pitching star would NOT want to play in Oakland
As OaklandSi says it is a pitcher’s dream park, and the Bay Area has such a sizable Japanese population especially compared to places like Texas or Minnesota, etc.
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I think the local population really matters.
But that’s just my gut instinct. Does anyone have first-hand reports on that? When a Japanese player comes here, does he like to have a community of Japanese to live among?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
My guess would be that
The guaranteed money and years are far more important, as with most free agents.
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2011 12:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think to a degree
But I have to wonder if youre in a work environment where no one speaks your language… look at how Asian players have sort of gravitated to the Dodgers, Mariners, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox… I mean its hard to separate the two out (they are also all high-revenue teams) but they also are teams with bigger Asian communities.
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I do think the notion that we are "stacked" at pitcher is inaccurate
We’re an injury away from having to put Cramer or Moscoso in the rotation right now, and the minors are not exactly chock full of great pitching prospects. So maybe not Darvish, but certainly the A’s ought to be looking to add in the area where they’ve actually been very successful at bringing in new talent, and that’s SP.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I saw Banwart last night in Nashville
(see my post with a pic) He looked really good, what is the word on him in terms of future plans – if any?
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I say stacked because even with Braden going down, we have 5 very good starters
and if Outman can recover in AAA, we might have a 6th next year (we’ll see what happens with Braden).
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
It may just be that we view "5 SPs" differently
You may look at it and say “that’s a lot” and I may look at it and say “that’s not very many” and yet we’re looking at the same thing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Outman needs more time, but he's looking better every start.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 15, 2011 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions
We have 6 front end SPs.
Most teams have one or two. I think you are right in that our “back end” choices aren’t great, but every team in baseball has at least one crappy SP except us. We are as stacked as it comes.
Ross/McCarthy are better than other teams' 4th/5th starters, but Cramer/Moscoso wouldn't be
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Ross/McCarthy/Braden
Are #3 SP’s on pretty much every team except Phily. They’d be aces on the Royals/Pirates etc.
Braden no longer counts.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes on Darvish
If he’s truly as good as advertised, it might be cheaper to sign him, then potentially be able to trade one of the golden three for a good and young available bat.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 14, 2011 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Matsui v Giambi
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Matsui released a la Jason Giambi 2 years ago. It is a nearly identical situation.
by jeffro on May 15, 2011 10:02 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
He might be blocking a better player when Carter gets healthy
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
There's not much reason to release Matsui
He’s in the middle of the pack in terms of A’s hitters. He’s shown plenty of value, and just needs to get hot. Plus, Matsui’s tenure in Oakland shouldn’t be decided by how well Cardenas is doing. If Willingham moved to DH, 2 of Sweeney/Jackson/DeJesus. Cardenas isn’t an outfielder, no matter how stupid the A’s office is
Right. I think Matsui is the least of the A's problems
He has usually done better as the season goes along and he hasn’t been terrible, just not good. The issues at 3B and 2B are a lot more of an issue than DH (where the A’s can always start platooning Matsui with Jackson if need be).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Weeks needs to be given a shot at 2B. Unfortunately, the A’s are in a win-now mode so they won’t deal with the ups and downs of a rookie. They’ll use the excuse that Ellis is a veteran and his career stats are such and such and that he’ll eventually come around.
They might deal with the ups and downs of a rookie
if it’s in contrast to the “downs and downs” of the incumbent. I’m not sure the A’s are being overly loyal to Ellis at the moment — I think you give a guy more than 6 weeks to show what he can do, especially if he’s still excelling somewhere (defense). If Ellis is hitting .181 on July 1st and is still the every day guy, then maybe it’s Chavy-syndrome. Right now it’s still totally acceptable.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Agreed...
Main problems are 1B and 3B. Platoon Barton with CoJax and start LaRoche for a couple of weeks. When Rosie is ready, I expect it will be Kouz or LaRoche that is gone, not Ellis.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
I think Barton will be ok
He’s hit a lot of balls hard for outs, making a “poor” start to the season look like a “terrible” one. Look for him to go on a nice run about now, bringing the average up to .250 and the OBP closer to what we’ve come to expect.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hopefully you're right
And, same argument with other batters, doesn’t help him that those hitting behind him stink at the moment. But I still say platoon him to take the heat off.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
He's not a good platoon candidate, because he handles LHPs well (if not better)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'll defer then...
But bat him 7th or 8th for a while perhaps?
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Not as long as his OBP is one of the best on the team
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
i believe
cojax deserves to be in the lineup daily..and with sweeney hitting now, how much longer does barrton get to right the ship? obviously the FO is thinking the same by putting cojax at 3rd
Ray Fosse thinks Pete Rose is a prick......
CoJax at 3rd makes the most sense to me as an immediate fix
He played it in college as per Korach & Cotroneo he has been taking ground balls at 3rd in practice consistently, though allegedly “just in case of emergencies”. But that’d be a great way to get his bat in there.
Proud Member of the: I-told-you-so-CoJax-would-be-good-this-year-club-though-I-had-a-brief-was-I-really-right-moment-in-spring-training.
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Jackson has a lot to prove against righties.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 15, 2011 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
If Ellis doesn't improve, he will be gone without a doubt
2B is just as much as a problem, if not more
I tihnk it's two things at once.
Ellis will be gone only if he doesn’t improve and Weeks is deemed ready. One without the other isn’t enough.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Weeks can provide more production than Ellis
The thing that should be considered if he should be brought up is the mental side of it. In which case, bringing him up while he’s hitting well would be the easiest transition.
I think Weeks is ready.
Cardenas is kind of a butcher in the infield, unfortunately… Maybe not so much a butcher as someone with slow reaction time…
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 15, 2011 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions
It's unfortunate.
We both would love to see him excel there, of course.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 15, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Weeks is TINY
Sat front-row by the River Cats on-deck circle yesterday. That dude is like that guy who climbs in the boxes and stuff in Oceans Eleven.Tiny.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Except that he's not fumbling balls like Kouz is and 2B isn't traditionally as much of a power slot
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Kouz isn't fumbling balls anymore. He's been great defensively lately
Power slot or not, you just can’t have a .180 hitter at ANY position. Plus, 2B is easier for us to fill than 3B right now, with Weeks either major-league or near major-league ready, and the billions of other IF at Sac that can all be more productive than Ellis is
Ellis wont be gone.
For one Beane wont treat him like that. Two we need him to mentor Weeks/Cardenas for 2nd base. I would expect Ellis to show Weeks the rope about mid season.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
As nice as that might be, at no point should we have 2 2B-only players
That’s incredibly stupid. And yes, Beane will do something if he can’t come around. Ellis knows it, and it won’t be “treating him badly” for doing it.
Right. History even supports that Beane is willing to do what's needed,
just that he’ll do it in a way that’s respectful to the player — which is a good thing. Think Nomar, Giambi. Billy acted, but he didn’t callously release them like, “Sorry, it’s a business” — it was more of a partnership than a “firing”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wait until at least July to judge Matsui
It can’t be helping that no one around him is hitting either. My guess, if DeJesus and Willingham heat up, so will he – or vice versa.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Matsui had a 955 OPS in the second half last season.
Lets hope we get to see that version of Godzilla sooner than later…he doesn’t look awful at the plate and like Barton, just needs time to sort himself out. He’s not chasing bad pitches and leaving the ball when its right down the middle like Ellis is.
And Ellis had a .987 OPS last September.
So either both Matsui and Ellis get to use that argument, or they both don’t…but not one of them.
by danmerqury on May 15, 2011 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Matsui gets to use it because he projects better than Ellis right now
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Both of those have equal value in the context of the players' careers
which is to say, zero.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Ellis could stay with the team if we decide to stick with 2 backup infielders and only 1 backup OFer
Theoretically, the Mets are willing to move David Wright and the A’s have been rumored to be looking for offensive upgrades. I have no idea how much the Mets expect in return for Wright, so this scenario is purely conjecture on my part, but maybe the Mets would trade Wright for Barton, DeJesus, Kouz, Laroche and maybe 1 or 2 okay prospects not including Green, Carter, Choice,Outman, Cardenas or Weeks. Maybe Ynoa or Parker would work. After the trade, Jackson, Carter or Cardenas can slide into 1B, Weeks can go to second, Wright to third and Sweeney to the outfield. That would make Cardenas the likely backup OF/ utitlity man, along with Powell, Ellis and Rosales if he is healthy.
by Rygoslinglover on May 14, 2011 10:53 PM PDT reply actions
Ross
My hope is that he continues pitching well, building his trade value. I like the guy, and love the fact that he’s a local product, but he looks like a major injury waiting to happen. Even though improved, his mechanics are still pretty bad.
I understand the pitching depth concerns, as they are legitimate. The starting 5 look great now, but if we lose even one more were gonna be singing a different tune. That said, we absolutely need another bat or we are going to waste this ridiculous starting pitching staff on another .500ish season.
There are gonna be 5th starter types available on the trade market, as well as some veterans still sitting on free agency so fifth starter options will be there. If come mid-june the Mets are way out of it, and we are still condending with health on our side for the most part I would absolutely be willing to deal Ross in a package for Wright. Without including one of Cahill, Anderson or Gio we are gonna see some of our better prosepcts leaving us but the time for this team to win is over the next 3-5 years while we have this great pitching intact. If something like Ross, Choice, Green and an additional 1-2 spects’ can get it done then I think it needs to happen.
No way would I trade Ross this year.
The A’s need to go for it THIS YEAR, because there aren’t enough prospects to replace all the departures, and there are going to be a LOT of departures.
The Cats have a lot of sh!tty-fielding hitters, and our pitchers are gonna look worse with them in the field, for the most part.
"OK and now everybody who said 'game over' at some point
GO KNEEL IN THE CORNER!" - elcroata
by Gaijin_Suketto on May 15, 2011 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't trade Ross simply because
the A’s success starts with dominant, not just good, starting pitching and contrary to popular belief the A’s don’t have too much of it. There is amazing quality, but not amazing depth.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Mets won't take LaRoche (backup) or DeJesus (1 year contract), and Kouz is prob a detriment to a trade
Since they are going to be looking forward. They will probably want players who are going to be there for a while.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
I'm all for getting Wright, but I don't see why they'd trade him for prospects not including
Green, Carter or Choice.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Cardenas tonight.
Cardenas pulled in the 5th tonight. Got hit in first AB, played D, and hit again, then was replaced.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
He was HBP in his first AB
Knowing the A’s, he likely was feeling it and they pulled him.
He’ll be Day to Dead.
Even a blind squirrel is right twice a day.
Was at the game live
It was a cold rainy night, got hit right by his unsleeved elbow. Looked painful to even watch.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
No word yet.
Strange to be pulled mid game for a call up tho.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Plus, per this very post Cardenas would be called up to do what?
He’s been playing LF (and DH) and the A’s already have 5 OFers vying for time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Knowing the A's, probably both, in that order.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
great write-up
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on May 14, 2011 11:16 PM PDT reply actions
Thank you -- always appreciated!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can't wait to see what Weeks can do in the Majors...
But, I will definitely miss Ellis when the time comes. The best defensive player in the MLB to never win a gold glove
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on May 14, 2011 11:17 PM PDT reply actions
It's sort of interesting (sad?) how so much of our future decisions
rely on the health of someone who is supposed to be the backup in Rosales.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
Grant Green
What about Grant Green? From what I hear, he likely will need to move to 2B from SS. I’d view Green as the heir apparent, especially considering Weeks’ health concerns, and also that we have Pennington.
He's considered to have a fringy arm, so 2B seems more likely than 3B
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's what Goldstein said:
He’s a tall, rangy athlete with a tick above-average speed and enough arm for the left side of the infield.
Green committed 37 errors in 114 games in 2010, and had so much trouble with throws that at times it seemed like he had a case of the yips, often rushing plays when unnecessary and rarely setting his feet correctly. He can’t afford to regress athletically, or he’ll be forced to slide over to second base.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
As bad as he's been hitting
Ellis hasn’t been the A’s worst infielder this season, because he can field. And while he appears to have lost range, I still appreciate his reliability in the field – especially early in the season, when all of the other infielders were stumbling and bumbling all over the place.
My question about Cardenas is simple: What’s his position? From a need perspective, third base would be ideal, but that apparently isn’t happening.
Ellis got off to a slow start last year too, although not as slow as this year. Weeks may be forcing the team to make a move, but his injury history and short period of success worry me.
Ellis hit last year when it was sort of too late to have a real effect on our playoff hopes
We need someone who can hit better starting like now.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 15, 2011 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think Ellis was waiting for his hits not to matter
Ellis may have hit a wall, or Weeks may simply be a better option.
But I’m in no hurry to dump Ellis, for several reasons.
First, Ellis is very unlikely to continue to hit as poorly as he’s been hitting.
Second, his slump is not affecting his fielding, which is more than I can say for other A’s infielders. And that good defense is invaluable on a team that plays many 2-1 games.
Third, we’re talking about replacing him with Weeks, whose career has been marred by injury and inconsistency. I want to see a longer track record of success. Six good weeks aren’t enough. [I would feel a little differently if the alternative was Cardenas, but apparently it’s not.)
Fourth, I’m enough of a loyalist to want to give Ellis a chance.
Ellis deserves a chance to work through his slow start.
by IM4Oakgal on May 15, 2011 12:24 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I Agree
I still think he’s solid, both offensively and defensively, and he can get the job done. But sooner or later, I think Weeks will have to be called up, and I hope he’s ready for that. As mentioned in the article, he’s got the experience, and he is a very talented player.
Yeah, but i'd rather he do it from the bench.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
Perhaps Ellis really has a batting average too low for the A's lineup
But he still beats the DH for the $200 mil Yankees
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Which one? Their most recent choice for DH refused to play!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
DHing and hitting 9th temper tantrum!
I cannot believe such ego exists, who cares about the batting order—-wait this is a man who has made millions playing a game and probably isnt that smart to begin with, nevermind it makes perfect sense.
Tough call
This isn’t a decision you can make strictly on the stats. If you dump Ellis what is the impact in the clubhouse? Among fans? How does it affect the A’s reputation in the league? Does any of that matter? No easy answers. Right now the backup IF is LaRoche. He never played SS in the majors before this season. Why is it out of the question that Ellis or Weeks could fill in for a game at SS or 3B?
That Is True
With Chavez now in pinstripes, Ellis is by far the guy with the longest career in Oakland on the team. Trading someone like that will have an effect on the team and on the fans as well, because I think that A’s fans respect and admire (if not like) Ellis for his long-standing Oakland career. They will miss someone like that. I know I will.
However, we can’t hold back prospects like Weeks because we want to have someone like Ellis on the team. Sooner or later, I think he’ll be going back and forth, playing some games at the Major League level, but eventually fading away. It’s a shame that his decline couldn’t be more graceful. However, if he starts hitting (and hitting consistently), then i think he can end his career respectfully, and end it with the green and gold.
Ellis' bat speed is gone
That’s true of Matsui to a large extent, too. You can’t beat father time. Ellis, for whatever reason, has aged faster than most. It’s been fun watching him, but it really is time for Ellis to hang it up.
He is 34 (33?). That's about when middle infielders fall off a cliff.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Thanks for the thorough write-up
It would be lazy to simply write this off to bad luck on balls in play; he’s hitting .213 on them compared to .290 career and .321 last year, so there’s no question that will come up. However, his plate discipline numbers are horrible (2.7% BB and 17.7% K; last year: 8.1 and 12.8; career: 8.1 and 15.2). Also, this article from the off-season unfortunately sounds possibly applicable.
All that said, Ellis has been one of my favorite A’s players. He’s just a pleasure to watch with the glove, has shown no signs of decline there, he’s only been an A, and he has always hit plenty for his position in the past. A month and a half is not nearly enough to judge whether a player is done, especially for a guy who is still shy of 34. I also firmly believe that our eyes will confirm the stats: if a guy is hitting .181, he’ll look like a guy who is hitting .181 until he snaps out of it. Ellis has earned a good long opportunity to snap out of it.
I’m also not at all excited about the alternatives. Rosales is a backup/utility player. I don’t know anything about Cardenas’s defense, but unless he were a plus defender at second or third, which definitely doesn’t sound like it’s the case, I just can’t get excited about him as a starter. His AAA line looks good because of the high batting average. He’s not going to have a .390 BABIP in the majors. If he were promoted now, I think his major league numbrers would look a lot more like his numbers in AAA last year. With below average or bad defense, that would make us all pine for the days of Ellis or Kouzmanoff.
Weeks is interesting, but I absolutely want to see him get a full season in AAA. If he had a strong, healthy track record in the lower minors, you might consider giving him a shot now. But obviously that’s not the case. If everything goes right, it’s still 2012 at the earliest for him.
Well Written
I do agree that Weeks should get a full season with Sacramento. However, if Ellis continues to struggle, then we may have to think about speeding up the process. If Ellis hasn’t picked up his game by the All-Star break, then we may have to think about giving Weeks a chance. However, Eric Sogard could also be a decent option, just to give Weeks some more time.
Sogard isn't setting the world on fire at AAA, but I'm not sure he would hit any worse than
Ellis. It could be that if they jettison both Ellis and Kouzmanoff they bring up both Sogard and Weeks
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I Think Sogard Could be An Improvement
But for now, give Ellis a serious chance, and let Sogard and Weeks have time to really heat up in AAA. That way, if Ellis is still having trouble come July, both of the youngsters will be in great shape to take over and prove themselves at the big league level.
anyone know about sogards defense?
it didn’t look good in the spring, but i don’t trust my eyes/ears.
WIthout good defense, I’d prefer ellis to sogard
Put a bird on it
I think Sogard's 2B defense is supposed to be very good
It’s at SS where he’s stretched too thin because like Ellis he doesn’t have a strong enough arm for SS. My guess is that in the big leagues, Sogard would be an above average defensive 2Bman with a hitting line of around .240/.340/.350: basically another Pennington.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I NOES!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't think his defense is supposed to be that good
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
No? I thought he was more of a "defense guy" but with a high walk rate.
Does he not have good range? I really don’t know.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Here's what Sickels said:
Scouts will tell you that Sogard lacks great tools…He supposedly has limited range around the bag at second base, but his range factors are consistently above average, and Oakland felt comfortable enough to give him 25 games at shortstop for Sacramento…
BA wrote:
He’s an average runner who had been considered a defensive liability, but Oakland was pleasantly surprised by his work in the field last year….and he also improved his ability to turn double plays. His arm strength is fringy but good enough for second base…
So basically he seems to play above his defensive tools.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Now I don't have to write a comment saying I don't know either and hem and haw
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
LOL. Kind of sounds like scouts don't know either
“Not great — but really gets it done!” Very Eckstein.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
his
infield pop up rate is down litttle, so id his Line drive rate.
Groundball and flyball rates are about the same (no homers so obviouisly the HR/FB rate at 0 career 7.4)
So, the big things, to me, are the K rate and to a lesser degree the LD%.
XSSS his fielding seems to be normal.
I don’t think its really time to super panic.
Put a bird on it
No
I wouldn’t panic at all right now. I think Ellis will improve, and won’t be an offensive liability anymore. However, it’s good to know that we have two strong options in case he just keeps on struggling.
I don't get this statement. What does age have to do with anything? If he's good enough, he's good enough.
Now 24, Weeks is old enough
If anything doing what he’s doing at 24 is less impressive than doing it at 21 and more impressive than doing it at 27.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
Oh, what I mean is
he isn’t a 20 year old who would be being rushed just because we have a need. He’s at the age, and number of minor league seasons, that suggest he isn’t being rushed unduly. Yet he also only has 800 minor league ABs, which is more like 2 seasons than 4 seasons.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
OK, then I'd say that "rushing" has nothing to do with age. It has to do with ability and
performance. If he were 20 with the identical performance in AAA I’d be more inclined to bring him up because it would be more impressive. If he were 27 with the identical line, he’d be Steve Tolleson.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Production has never been the problem with Weeks.
It’s always been his ability to stay healthy.
He’d be starting at 2B now if he could stay healthy (and he should be in my opinion).
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I would give Ellis a bit more time to prove he can turn it around
by a bit more time I mean until the end of the month. If not I would bring up Weeks to see what he has!
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Ellis isn't the problem
There are many issues with the offense. Virtually every position isn’t producing on offense. Ellis at least is giving us solid defense. All we need to do is get someone in there who isn’t solid on d., and we’ll realize how valuable his d. is. Willingham has been decent on O. No one else is really doing anything.
Any time someone is batting .180 a quarter of the way into the season with a regular spot in the lineup, it's a problem
There are other issues going on with the offense, but that’s still a big one.
He’s got 23 hits in 130 ABs and his OBP is barely over the Mendoza line because he’s only walked 4 times.
There is no way to spin this as not a problem. Not THE problem, but definitely A problem they can’t afford to let continue much longer.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on May 15, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right, and as far as where the offensive problem needs to be addressed,
the answer may lie in what’s available. If a good hitting 3Bman becomes available, you need to look at the opportunity. If a good hitting 2Bman becomes available, you need to look at the opportunity. So whether or not “Ellis is the biggest problem the A’s have” really has a lot to do with whether the chance to improve the lineup involves a 2Bman or a something else.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And if you look at his past month it's even worse
11-for-76 with 1 walk. .145 / .165 / .184 / .349
There has to be a time limit for him to show improvement by.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on May 15, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most importantly (to me), he looks utterly lost at the plate in every way
He isn’t distinguishing balls from strikes, he’s trying to go to RF just to see the pitch longer and punch a few single and still just hitting routine fly balls and gentle bouncers, and he isn’t turning on pitches down the 3B line like he used to. There’s legitimate cause for concern outside of the stats — which happen to fully support everything I’m saying.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They aren't producing but they are showing signs of life
Ellis is pulling a Brandon Wood out there. He’s the worst hitter in baseball (funnily enough, just beating out Miguel Tejada for lowest wOBA, who is also clearly done as a big leaguer), and its never good to have the worst anything on your team.
although
The top 35 worst wOBA list includes Carl Crawford, Justin Morneau, Dan Uggla. Hanley Ramirez, Brian Roberts and Nick Markakis, so I don’t know what to make of it anymore.
He should have until the end of June
then he needs to go if he isn’t hitting. This team is contending for a division championship and can’t suffer subpar production in the rare cases when it actually has a viable alternative.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Er, end of May, excuse me.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on May 15, 2011 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We all knew this was going to be Ellis's last year as an Athletic
due to Weeks/Cardenas/Rosales presence and the end of his contract. What we didn’t know is that this might be his last year as a pro. The aging/declining 2B market doesn’t bear too much fruit. At this point he just looks…done.
I wouldn't be surprised if he retired after this season
Not everyone plays until they’re 40 or until no one will take a chance on them. I see Ellis going about the way of Nomar; the question is whether ties will be respectfully cut in May, June, August, or October.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Because Ellis mashed last September
I think he will wait around until the end of the year in hopes of beating down the expanded rosters cup of coffee pitchers again.
September may have been only 2 baseball months ago,
but it was also 8 calendar months ago.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Kind of like if I was offered for free a really nice
car or SUV that I otherwise could not afford….to be given to me. But….the “genie” says to me …“this car is brand new but the only problem is the steering wheel works 90% of the time.”…. no other information for what 90 percent means, no solution, no fix….as is. Hmm, would I want the car?
alaska A in northern idaho
If there's any team that doesn't care if their 2Bman hits a lick
He’d be a perfect fit for them. I think he has another 2 years left solely for his glove.
"Once you go Bed....everything else is dead." - Bed
"So you're saying we should skin the Rangers and wear them as uniforms? I’m down." - Kyli
by cuppingmaster on May 16, 2011 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Of the three infielders not doing squat with the bat right now
Ellis is the only one with a viable replacement waiting in Sacramento. I expect Barton to eventually turn it around. Kouz is Kouz, and I don’t expect much from him. Sad as it is to say, Mark will probably have to go. He’s a class act, but we don’t always get the ending we deserve.
MexicAN AmericAN VegAN
So many issues with the A's offense
Ellis and Kouz at the top. Matsui. Barton. Pennington.
Pennington is going nowhere and we’ll be living with who he is. Matsui’s problems are easier to hide or can be rationalized via platoon, interleague play, and faith in him to get better.
Barton actually worries me. The complete lack of power is really troubling. Nico above says that Barton is hitting a lot of balls hard. I’m not seeing that at all. I’m seeing a player I can’t imagine hitting a home-run right now (no doubt he goes deep today). Sure he’s one of the better performers on the A’s, but zero power out of first base is unimaginable. So Barton’s year so far is, for me, a very bad sign for the team’s future.
As for Ellis. I’d have brought up Weeks yesterday. Much of the waiting—even here—has to do with allegiance and fear of the unknown. But the current known is as bad as it gets offensively.
The A’s have a shot this year and need to go for it. Because after this year, I’m not seeing much of a shot with how many players are on the last years of their contracts.
He is popping up an awful lot, actually
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2011 11:59 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Although he's certainly not the only one
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2011 12:00 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Just bring up Weeks
Since Bob uses the same pitchers every game just send down a Rp and bring up Weeks. Have Weeks and Ellis Platoon
Please fire Bob
by Dylan Robinson on May 15, 2011 10:22 AM PDT reply actions
This makes some sense to me. We don't really need Magnusson.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Seriously, how valuable is the 13th pitcher? Especially over a 3-4 week period.
They only have 12. If they sent someone down it would be 11
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
We have more than two guys in the bullpen each game?
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
Good thing she's not Adrian Beltre
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Something that seems to get left out of the equation (unless I missed it in the comments)
is that Ellis is made of glass, too. The whole “Weeks can’t stay healthy, he needs a whole season at AAA!” line is far less powerful when you remember that Ellis is constantly getting banged up as well.
In my mind, it’s all the more reason to call up Weeks, and call him up soon (if things don’t change).
The injuries have prevented Weeks from posting a full season
If he had a strong track record in A and AA ball, you might call him up after 25 hot games at AAA. But he doesn’t, because he’s been injured. It’s not so much the risk of injury after you call him up as the fact that his injuries mean you’d be basing the callup on pretty flimsy evidence that he’ll be able to handle the majors. No doubt I’m excited about him and think he has a chance to be a decent player if his defense is ok, I just don’t think there’s much evidence that he’s ready.
by thelincolndude on May 15, 2011 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
"Don't think there's much evidence he's ready"
Doesn’t his being a #1 pick account for something? Doesn’t his current success? Why does that have to be reduced to “25 hot games”? Doesn’t he have a pretty strong track record as a player? This isn’t some nobody at age 28 we’ve never heard of.
I guess what I’m asking is how you end up saying there’s not much evidence he’s ready. I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I just don’t understand the argument very well given what Ellis is doing right now. Is there some established procedure for bringing guys up that we’re all supposed to know and understand?
Another way to look at this:
Clearly whatever the A’s have been doing hasn’t been working. Now isn’t the time to stay the course.
by sleepingcobra on May 15, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Can Ellis fake an injury to get on the DL?
And then call up weeks for the 15 days?
I assume you are joking
because no major league player would willingly take himself out. Oh…Posada?
THUS SPOKE MO. -danmerqury
by MissOakland on May 15, 2011 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey, let's bat him 9th at DH and see if he'll just storm off!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Don't give Bob any ideas
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
No A had better even think if doing that
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2011 12:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It would be amazing if Kouzmanoff and Ellis somehow stayed healthy and on the roster all year
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
OT - looks like CJ Wilson has walked the first batter he faced today
Stupid Southern California lawyers!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Not sure whether to root for the Angels as the 1st place team or the Rangers as the better team when healthy
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Look at the two teams and ask yourself, "Who really has the better team?"
I think it’s pretty clearly Texas. (LAA isn’t bad but has a pretty weak infield defense, a shaky bullpen, and a meh offense.)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Go Slegna!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
MORE OT: Sarah Silverman is awesome.
She nails the whole “Boston = loser but we win now” mentality and might have been on LSD herself when she says pitchers should be allowed to do it “as a treat” lol Buck & McCarver were so nervous.
O/T: Jose Bautista goes deep 2 more times
If only we had a hitter like him
And he's missed quite a few games
Averages 1 almost every two games
Who knew changing your leg kick would turn you into a super human hitting machine.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
Matsui sitting again today
It says in Rotoworld he will be sitting in NL parks later on as well
Poor Gojira
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Gojira a good broadcast?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Also a healthy breakfast
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on May 15, 2011 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
No no, you misunderstood, Hideki.
We said Designated Sitter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd sit on the bench for half of his pay cheque.
And……..I guess I’d bring in a ton of British fans?
So where do I sign?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
We usually sign on the right side,
but you should sign on the left.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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