Opening Night's Middle Innings And Geren's "Sophie's Choice"
by Nico on Apr 2, 2011 7:15 AM PDT
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What I love most about baseball are the strategic subtleties that crop up in each unique game, and yesterday offered a real dilemma as to how to handle a game the A's led 2-1 in the 5th inning with Trevor Cahill on his way out at 105 pitches.
Geren came out apparently to tell Cahill he had one more hitter to try to get through the 5th and when Cahill yielded a hit I think Geren made the correct decision to go to the bullpen at that point. You'd love to get more than 14 outs from your starter just as you'd love to let your starter qualify for the win, but I think it was right move. Now what?
With Andrew Bailey out, Craig Breslow and Michael Wuertz available but about 1-2 weeks behind schedule and looking every bit behind in their Cactus League tuneups, Geren had relatively little to work with despite every single reliever being rested and available.
The manager has two fundamental choices in a situation like this. One is to go with multiple short relievers and the other is to go with one long reliever, until you can get the guys in there you really want pitching your high leverage innings -- which in this case were Brian Fuentes and Grant Balfour.
One thing I want to emphasize is that on the game thread I wound up taking a position contrary to the one I normally take, and that I generally agree with the position I argued against. DMOAS very correctly argued that it is very risky to count on several relievers to pitch well on the same day, compared to rolling the dice with one guy -- even if he isn't a great pitcher -- to be "on" that day.
Unless it's the All-Star game and you happen to have 4-5 terrific relievers at your disposal, you are usually better off counting on fewer pitchers even if it means putting all your eggs in a pretty rickety basket. And when Breslow was uber-shaky, and Ziegler's throws to Kurt Suzuki and Daric Barton kept landing only vaguely near them, we saw why.
That being said, fast forward out of theory and into practice of last night's unique game, and I have to tell you: If I'm the manager of the A's and King Feliz is dealing and I have a window of opportunity to beat him anyway with a 2-1 lead after 5 innings, I'm not going to Bobby Cramer for the next two innings in my quest to try to squeeze two shutout innings out of the middle relievers in an effort to get to Fuentes and Balfour.
I might ask Fuentes and Balfour to combine to get me 7-8 outs, hoping to need only 4-5 from the rest of the pen. I might roll the dice that Breslow or Wuertz is ready just in time for Opening Night (though I really wanted to see them out of high leverage situations for the first week if possible) -- and as it turned out, in hindsight, Wuertz was up to the challenge while Breslow wasn't. But turn it over to my worst reliever for multiple innings, with no margin for error? I wouldn't do it, and I don't blame Geren for feeling the same way.
Kouzmanoff's defense begat Cahill's pitch count (as did Cahill's pitching), and Cahill's pitch count begat a bullpen needing to get more outs than this bullpen is ready to take on at this moment. And then the A's infield kicked the ball around something fierce anyway, to where Mariano Rivera would have had difficulty making progress. Oh well.
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I agree with this
The interesting thing I observed was that Seattle took Cahill out of his element a little bit and he had to respond by relying on the strikeout. They weren’t swinging early on in his pitch counts and Cahill relies upon inducing batters to do so to be effective deep into a game. When he did induce the grounder, all heck broke loose on the left side of the infield. The first error was interesting because Kouz actually ranged too far to his L and the ball hit him in the heal. This may not have been completely his fault because a ball coming off of a L handed batter when hit opposite will commonly spin toward foul line. Too bad, he was 3 inches away from fielding it cleanly and getting the out
Seattle hitters have been known to strike out a lot. But this year’s lineup is better balanced and if they play to their capabilities, going from Ichiro to Smoak will produce success that wasn’t their last year. While I didn’t think Cust worked well in our lineup based upon the players surrounding him, I think he will do well in Seattle’s offense.
Our offensive challenge will be to see how much consistency we get out of the 3-4-5 spots. These guys will set the tone for our offensive success. Last night made that painfuly obvious. Once, Hernandez started going outside on WIllingham, he had more difficulty. Still, the HR was a thing of beauty.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
Tony Larussa
One thing I always like about Tony LaRussa is that he always managed by the series, and not by the single game. In a game like last night’s debacle, I think Tony would have taken his chances with the long relief and kept the ‘pen fresh and available for the remaining two, far more winnable games. It’s not really defeatist or conceding but more so saving your weapons for when they have the most value. If Los Ojos Loco struggles tonight Geren has put himself into a position with potentially fewer options because he ran guy after guy out there last night in a desperate attempt to win the unwinnable.
Good points, but two thoughts in rebuttal:
1. You can’t look at last night as “a desperate attempt to win the unwinnable.” A game you are leading after 5 innings is a winnable game, period. In fact, the A’s needed two shutout innings to take a lead into the 8th with Balfour and Fuentes available. What Geren faced was far from an unwinnable game; what he faced was a game that started with the M’s favored (thanks to Felix) but had unexpectedly become winnable with the Willingham HR. In a series where going in, you’d figure to lose the first one and win the next two, if you have a shot at stealing the first game, you go for it and use the “tomorrow it may rain” theory of saving pitchers.
2. The bullpen is fine tonight after last night’s work. Every pitcher had Thursday off, Balfour and Fuentes didn’t pitch at all, Blevins is totally available, and the others (Breslow, Ziegler, Wuertz, Cramer) could all probably go if needed — but almost certainly won’t be needed (and will thus be fresh Sunday).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Nico, do you really think we could have won this game 2-1?
Felix threw 1 bad pitch all night and Cahill had 92 pitches after 4 IP. That is never a recipe for winning no matter what your bullpen looks like.
Could have? Sure.
You shut out a bad offense for two innings, and get two shutout innings from Balfour and Fuentes at the end.
That’s why in the game thread I was talking about playing for one run if the opportunity presented itself to scratch out a run in any of the last few innings. More likely than winning 2-1 was winning 3-2.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I dunno man
Felix got better and better and Cahill while decent, blew up his pitch count while attempting and succeeding in a fine Gio Gonzalez impersonation. I don’t blame Geren at all for Breslow+Ziggy sucking, they shouldn’t suck like that. I mean, a HR to Figgins? GTFO.
Thankfully I braced myself early for this loss. Wonder if Selig will try and make it 4-0 for Felix against us on opening days next season too, sheesh. Can’t we open against a crap team who does’nt have the best pitcher in the game?
We had no chance to shutout a bad offense for 4 innings?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Why not?
Seattle’s offense isn’t anything special, is it?
The A’s beat themselves more than anything else with all the poor play.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Isn't Brett Anderson, not Gio pitching tonight?
During a contract holdout with Oakland in the early 1990s, Henderson said, "If they want to pay me like Mike Gallego, I’ll play like Gallego."
One thought that just crossed my mind, not that it proves anything...
…is yeah, the A’s were up against Felix Hernandez and that’s often a bad thing, but they were still facing a Mariners lineup that’s honestly not all that impressive. If Geren DID go to Cramer when Cahill got his pitch count up early, it’s not like you’re asking him to keep the Yankees, Red Sox or Rangers off the board for a couple innings.
This is an offense coming off a year where they scored the fewest runs since the advent of the DH.
It’s just too bad none of Geren’s moves ended up working out all that well with the A’s kicking (and throwing) the ball around like they did.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Very good point re: defense
I bet if we take out all those defensive errors, we have a much different ballgame, namely Cahill goes longer too.
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One can debate how good or bad Cramer or Ross is, or who's better,
but I’ll say this: If I have to make the decision Geren was faced with, if I have Ross I’m willing to turn the ball over to him and say, “Try to get me 2-3 good innings today” but I’m not willing to do it with Cramer. To me, Cramer is a “mop up/eat innings” long reliever whereas Ross is a “middle reliever who can go longer.”
The only second-guessing I would do is that Ross would have made sense for these first two weeks just because of the Breslow/Wuertz situation.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, with you on Ross
After getting shelled his past few spring outings, I figured Cramer was AAA bound. Ross or even Harden would have been perfect right there.
After Cramer came out, though, I thought for sure Ziegler was going to close this came out and Bob was sort “managing for series” as Asfan72 pointed out. He couldn’t have anticipated Ziegler thinking the plate was in San Jose.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not so much hate as what Nico said: Cramer is a garbage-time pitcher
The 12th man on the bench in the NBA. At the time when Cahill came out, we needed someone to go after Blevins who could eat up innings and not likely to throw a 4-spot up for the other team. It’s a failure of roster construction, in this case.
Ironically, of course, Cramer threw a solid 1.2 innings. Just wish he could be relied upon to do that.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
I’d have taken that chance with Ross (or Harden) but not Cramer. Cramer’s fine, though, to put out there in the 3rd inning of a game you’re down 5-2 and say, “It’s all yours for the next 4-5 innings” and hope he’s great and the team can come back.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I understand the opinion, but do you have anything to back it up?
He was nothing but solid as a starter for us last season.
I see you driving
round town with the girl I love
and I'm like, haiku.
Who, Cramer?
First off, he wasn’t really anything in that he barely pitched. Second off, he didn’t impress me much the couple starts I saw. Mostly, he’s a nice story but nothing about him suggests he’s more than a 31-year old journeyman making a quick pit stop on his way to oblivion. I have nothing against the guy; I just think he’s about as reliable as Edgar Gonzalez.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't think Cramer's going to go to oblivion.
He’s got a pretty good shot at bouncing back and forth between AAA and the bigs for a few years, then going into a front office or coaching.
Once Cramer threw his first pitch for the A’s, he was rescued from oblivion.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps "journeyhood," then.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
exactly
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I think what PL78 is trying to say
is he doesn’t understand why people think he can’t be relied upon to do that. Quite frankly, I feel he’s more reliable than Ziegler, Harden, Fuentes AND not-up-to date Breslow and Wuertz.
Also, the other side of the coin in the Ross debate: is it worth the regression in his development as a starter to keep him around for 2-3 weeks as a reliever? I feel it’s more important to have him pitching every 5th day as a starter than to have him be a bullpen guy for a month, then spend another month or two stretching him back out into starter space.
I see you driving
round town with the girl I love
and I'm like, haiku.
Regarding the second point,
I’d say it’s absolutely worth trading 2-3 weeks of Ross’ development as a starter if it made the major league team better. 2-3 months? Maybe not. 2-3 weeks? Definitely.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But those 2-3 weeks aren't just 2-3 weeks
it turns into 2-3 months when you have to factor in getting him back into the load of being a starter, spacing out his outings and keeping him on a developmental pitch count. Pitchers don’t normally go from pitching 3 times in 5 days to throwing 7 innings.
I see you driving
round town with the girl I love
and I'm like, haiku.
My thinking is that
if Ross were up until, say, April 10th, which is about when Breslow and Wuertz will catch up to “full strength,” and fortified the middle relief for that short stretch, he would then likely pitch, say, 3 innings at AAA around the 13th, maybe 5-6 innings around the 18th, and be back at full throttle by around the 23rd of April. Works for me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
neither is he going to go from relief to starting straight away
2-3 weeks isn’t going to materially affect Ross’ development. If someone like him is needed (say Harden gets injured after stepping into the long man role), we can bring in someone else from AAA.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
2-3 weeks is going to affect AN ENTIRE YEAR OF TEAM CONTROL
3 weeks in 2011 is not worth the entire 2015 season.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
by mikev on Apr 2, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's going to be up plenty in 2011 anyway, I think
I suspect he’ll be the A’s #6 starter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
would you leave brandon belt down in aaa for a few weeks?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Brandon Belt is significantly more ready than Tyson Ross.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
cool, now i understand your viewpoint.
remember when the giants couldn’t develop position players? now they have posey, belt and 2 outfielders coming. sigh.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I might move him up a notch if he buckled down.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yes.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't there, doc.
I live in Sacramento.
I’ll be there once or twice, though, later in the year.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Why is using Ross in a middle role a "regression in his development"?
We already have terrific starters. We need good middle role pitchers (middle relievers, long men, etc.) far more than we need more good starters. If Ross shows promise in such a middle role, that’s what we should train him for. If he does it better than Cramer et. al., give him a big raise, a bobble head day, a jersey day, and make him into a star every bit as big as the starters.
If we just throw people in middle roles because they aren’t good enough to be starters or closers, and marketing and fans ignore them when choosing who to laud as stars, we shouldn’t be surprised that we will often be faced with these kinds of “Sophie’s Choice” situations and lose many games as a result.
BTW, besides the two previously cited reasons why middle role pitchers should be among the best rather than the worst on the team:
(1) the growing enforcement of maximum pitch counts,
(2) the underrated value of taking starters out when they are having a bad day
yesterday’s game highlighted a third:
(3) relieving the pressure on starters to try to get batters to make contact in order to lower their pitch count
There absolutely is nothing wrong with Cahill’s pitching yesterday if we had a middle role pitcher as good as him, or nearly so. Indeed if we had a good middle role guy Cahill’s pitching yesterday would have been absolutely terrific. The fact that he had to leave after 4.2 innings due to his pitch count should be a far less important a weakness than it is. As Nico observes Seattle was just leaving the bat on their shoulders until they got the very easiest pitches to hit. Look for much more of this as the season progresses. This strategy of driving up our starters’ pitch counts way up works well against us because it takes our league-leading aces out of the game and replaces them with our awful middle role pitchers.
My complaint with how Geren managed the bullpen
Was that he used two pitchers with terrible splits, to face the “terrible side” of their splits.
That is fine that Blevins faced Langerhans (LHB) to get out the inning and he did so. But then they have him face Brendan Ryan and Jack Wilson (RHBs) and he struggles. Then inexplicably, Geren takes a guy with what is now a very favorable LH/RH split in Blevins, and replaces him with Breslow (a more even LH/RH split) to pitch to Ichiro. Ichiro hits a single game tied. That turns Figgins around to his good side (somewhat unavoidable so thats fine) who homers.
So onto next pitching change, it is clear Breslow isn’t so hot tonight. Then Geren goes to Ziegler, who basically is a ROOGY as he has bad splits too. So it is fine that he faces the RH hitters he does and though Langerhans is a lefty he has reverse splits.
After Ziegler throws pitches so far off the plate they are threatening maritime traffic in the Bay. THEN we go to Cramer – who does a bang up job.
When you have a tight game that IS winnable, and a bullpen that is so LOOGY/ROOGYish I want the pitchers that need to go longer to have less dramatic splits. Fortunately Geren avoided using Fuentes for any amount of time because he used his to big OOGYs for a series of multiple handed hitters in Ziegler and Blevins.
If you need to cobble together innings, these werent the pitchers to do it with.
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Hear hear
Being called a poet as a rock ’n’ roll musician is like being called a physicist as a baseball player. It might have some application but it’s pretty remote. - Richard Hell
by fridaynightfan on Apr 2, 2011 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
FIRE GEREN NOW!
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
Wasn't the old record
Waiting until the second game of the season to request this? New record?
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
"FIRE GEREN NOW"
Est. 2006
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I think what basically happened is that given the shortage in the pen right now,
combined with Cahill going short, each time he brought a pitcher in Geren tried to keep him in for a few hitters — which he hoped would be a few outs. I’m not sure you can afford to get too fine with LOOGY/ROOGY assignments in that situation, as compared to when your starter has gone 6.1 IP and half your pen isn’t hurt or rusty.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Winnable game with aggressive managing
Geren has to know that you either get to King Felix early or you don’t at all. The A’s needed to hold Seattle to one run. I personally hated the “let’s go with 4 or 5 relievers plan” vs. Going with one long man. Maybe I go with Blevins for the last out in the fifth but, considering the early April schedule, I would have gone with McCarthy in the 6th. I’m surprised no one posted this. I agree that Ross would have been a better dice roll than Cramer if he had been here, but McCarthy IS here. Apparently Geren didn’t even consider this option- this is my main problem with him—the robot-like conservatism.
Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier. The cigars taste better. The trees are greener. Billy Martin
by Steve in Napa on Apr 2, 2011 10:42 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
This did cross my mind --
they could have gone with McCarthy and then skipped his turn with the off-day Monday. The one question, though, is whether McCarthy would need 5 minutes or 20 minutes to warm up, given that he was not prepped to be available in relief last night.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
aggrsive managing, sure
but the A’s atrocious defense forced Cahill to get more outs and throw more pitches than he should have needed to, and gave the Mariners runs that Felix was going to make hard to overcome.
Aggressive managing most likely would have gotten us a 3-2 loss.
A non-excruciating loss, unlike last night’s embarrassment.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
the errors weren't the main thing that drove up the pitch count
it was the Mariners keeping their bats on their shoulders until they got the very easiest pitches.
This strategy works well against us because it takes our top-notch pitchers out of the game, replaced with our most awful pitchers. Look for opponents to be doing this against us all season long.
Ichiro is something like 2-8 against Breslow, 4-12 against Blevins.
i think that explained a large part of Geren’s reasoning. Unfortunately, it’s not really good reasoning.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I really doubt that played a part.
More likely, IMO, is “I think Breslow is a better pitcher than Blevins.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can;t see the difference there
and I think you may be right
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
Ironically Ichiro (wOBA wise) hits better off LHPs than RHPs
So this would’ve been a good place for a righty
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By the way, Nico, could you move the extra game threads to the overflow side? Thanks.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Good point, will do.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
My notes
-That’s 3 times Felix has beaten us on opening day, in out 0-7 rut, why haven’t we faced LAA or Texas as much?
-Ryan Langerhans had the most productive 0-5 with 4 K game anyone can have, he ate a whopping 31 pitches all by himself.
-I started punching things (ok, a pillow) when I saw Kurt stay out there. His ankle was screwed and we all got to watch the moron athlete tell the trainers he’s “fine” when the camera showed his ankle getting twisted in ways it should never twist. This stupidity happens time and time again and I can’t stand being forced to watch a guy hurt himself more by staying out there just because its a “big game”. Great, now we won’t have Kurt for 120+ games this year, what? You think stuff like this doesn’t effect a CATCHER like 3 months into the season? Stuff like this matters greatly, and you pull him out of there immediately. Powell was ready.
-I don’t blame Geren for Breslow & Ziggy sucking. They shouldn’t be sucking in the first place, and Cahill shouldn’t have worn through his pitch count by the 4th. That’s on the pitchers being terrible not the mgr making the wrong choice.
-Bottom line is, it was never expected that we’d win this game, King Felix is one of the top 3 best pitchers in baseball, and he was switched the hell on. His 9th inning was so filthy, it was like watching Mariano, not a SP finishing a CG. Real opening day starts today :)
We faced Joe Saunders in '09
(And still got trucked cause that guy is Cy Young against us.)
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
I saw Zito get obliterated against the Yanks in 06
And we even made the ALCS that year….can’t we just face a team who doesn’t have a pitcher who beats us 100% of the time?
I would have preferred to open against the Royals like the slegnA got to
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, the Rangers drew Lester and hit him hard,
so no excuses.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Lester was uncharacteristically bad yesterday
Felix was on his game. Plus, in general, I think Felix is a better pitcher, period.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Felix is the best pitcher in baseball
So yeah, there’s that.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 2, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
That lineup will hit lefties hard all season.
This could be a big potential problem for us.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
True dat.
Of course, there are “lefties” and there are “Anderson, Gio, and Braden buaaaahahaahahahaha!!!!!!!” But yeah.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Royals earned at least a split.
I hope they go for blood tomorrow.
I would love it if the Royals’ timetable were bumped up a little bit, and their window opens just as the A’s window has a series of exploding pigeons flying into it.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
This one was no better
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I thought the other was worse
not only because of the football-like score, but because it was the night that we held a moment of silence for Bill King, who had passed away during the off season. Some fool ruined the moment of silence by yelling “Yankees suck!” Much as I appreciate the sentiment, that was not the moment for it.
Again, I said I was sorry.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
but... the Yankees DO suck...
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd like to think Bill King would have yelled it too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sometimes it's painful to be an optimist,
but it’s better than the alternative.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
An ear doctor?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I was thinking of a psychometrist.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I expected to have a good chance to win this game.
I expected a low score and great defense.
Instead, I got a headache.
"So tired. So cranky. So full of rage. Ahhh, the baseball season." - Kyli
by Gaijin_Suketto on Apr 2, 2011 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
There would be little wrong with consuming the pitch count by the 4th inning
if we had middle role pitchers that were as good as our starters. And the pitcher doesn’t necessarily control his pitch count. The Mariners kept the bat on their shoulders and that unavoidably drove up the pitch count.
See signature.
But really, I thought his management of the pen was decent (for Geren) until you realize that Breslow was really off and Ziggy was trying to throw left-handed. When those things happen and you still have a chance to beat a guy like King Felix, you do what you need to do: put in Balfour or Fuentes.
I would dance and be merry, life would be a ding-a-derry, if Bob Geren had a brain.
I wonder if Geren even realizes...
that Ichiro is one of the few lefties who’s sustained better numbers vs lefties than righties over the course of the year. He ALWAYS brings in lefties to face Ichiro. Couple in the fact that Breslow is not extra effective vs lefties and it’s hard to imagine a reliever more ill-fitted for that situation.
bare y better numbers
tOPS+ 99 v. 102
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
Breslow IS "extra effective vs. lefties" though
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think you're misunderstanding me
That’s still not as severe a difference as your typical lefty. For lefties overall, the OPS against difference is 86 points. For Breslow, it’s 59 and less during his A’s tenure. For a lefty reliever, my guess is it’s closer to 100. He’s obviously better than lefties, but his split is less severe (albeit more slightly than I’d guessed) than the typical lefty Ichi Gaga faces.
I realize I may be picking nits here, but my basic point is: Geren ALWAYS brings in lefties to face Ichiro. He did the same thing last year on opening day. When Wilson-Ryan-Ichiro are due, that’s a perfect time to bring in a righty.
But all that matters is how effective Breslow is against LHs,
not how it compares to his effectiveness against RHs. Breslow is, in fact, very effective against LHs. That’s all I’m saying.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No
If Ichiro hits x against lefties, who on average, have a 90 point OPS split, he’ll hit somewhat more than x vs a lefty with a 60 point split. To use a more extreme example, if Matt Cain gives up a .201/.270/.300 line when facing pitchers, we wouldn’t say he pitches well against pitchers, even though he is still better against pitchers than he is overall. Cain:pitchers::Breslow:lefties vs lefties.
Again, the main point is: Ichiro ain’t Ryan Howard. Geren shouldn’t bring in a lefty for the sole purpose of facing Ichiro.
But he didn't. He brought Breslow in to face Ichiro and a bunch of other hitters.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Per SuSlu
Third-base coach Mike Gallego switched to No. 3 after checking with previous owner Eric Chavez. "Eric said, ‘It would be an honor,’ and I said, ‘No, it would be an honor for me,’ " Gallego said. "Eric said, ‘OK, just don’t get hurt in it.’ "
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
I think the question is,
did Eric check with anyone to see if he could get #3 on his new team
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
If they wouldn't make an exception for A-Rod...
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Apr 2, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
lol not even for A-Rod
Chavvy probably picked 12 because it was the lowest number that hasnt been retired yet. The Yanks are going to be the first team with triple digit numbers, they retire literally anyone who played for them for more than 5 years.
he's not a true Yankee like Eric Chavez is
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
actually, Geren first turned to Blevins when he took Cahill out
I’m pretty sure Cahill would have made it through five complete innings had it not been for Kouz’ two errors on successive ground balls.
and his non charged error in the 3rd.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
Quick question hoping someone can answer
On the pocket schedule it says comcastCA won’t have this game on TV, anyone know what channel it will be on? Will it be on TV at all tonight?
by Po' Boy on Apr 2, 2011 10:48 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Hmmm...
I have Dish and they’ve been having issues w/ comcast (last night I couldnt find the game till i searched all thre alt channels) Hope it’s on tonight
by Po' Boy on Apr 2, 2011 10:54 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Newspaper says no TV tonight
Sharks are on CSNCA but I don’t see anything indicating CSNCA+ and the Kings aren’t playing either.
Great way to start the season, having your second game of the year, on a Saturday night, not even on TV.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
If this is the case I will be extremely pissed off
IT’S THE 2ND GAME OF THE SEASON WTF?!?!?
by Po' Boy on Apr 2, 2011 10:59 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Comcast's brilliant explanation, apparently, is (see Bruce Jenkins' column today)
“We’d have to put it on CSNCA+ and we want to limit the number of times we push the A’s to the plus channel.” So you won’t broadcast them at all? Thanks. That’s much less disrespectful. WTF??
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
F'n Comcast
When there’s more than one team playing on the same day that’s normally broadcasted on that channel, what do you do? Use the plus channel designed for that, right?
WRONG! You don’t show one game at all!
GENIUS!
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Well, you know it could hurt the A's feelings
to be broadcast there too often. Better not to broadcast them at all. Oh, and we’re raising your rates again.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And they have a limit on bandwidth
So I could buy and stream games through MLB.TV but if I go over 250 GB twice in six months I run the risk of having my Comcast account terminated (someone said last night streaming a full 9-inning game in HD is about 10 GB a game). Maybe I’d like to watch some other games, you know?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Speaking of crap
Did you get a reply from CT about the pre- and post-game streaming?
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Does emperor nobody know him?
I can’t remember.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think you missed a joke.
;-)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I emailed The Wolf (one F)
Seeing if they could set up a “baseball” and “no baseball” stream. Let’s see if I get a reply.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
That'd fit
Everyone is missing out if the shows can’t be streamed online before and after games. One person on Facebook got a response from the station saying they would be streamed, then one of the media members reported they won’t be.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
yeah that was me
Perhaps they weren’t clear on the details or something the first time. Not sure.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I've emailed the same request to the Coliseum urinals.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That would be nice
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, this.
I’ve saved up enough for MLB.tv premium but I think I’m just going with the basic one instead. It doesn’t make sense to get the HD games when I have to “ration” the number of A’s games I want to watch each month or go to school and use the school’s wifi instead, heh heh.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Woah, if you did the latter
school would actually be useful!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
In my case it's a little different
I should be able to see the majority of the A’s games normally on regular TV, but there are times where I’d like to just have some baseball game on in the background or check out a particular pitching matchup, especially before or after an A’s game on a Sunday as I work. I don’t like the idea of having to go onto Comcast’s site just to see how close I am to 250 GB that month.
They say most people barely even reach 5 GB of usage in a month, but I do enough video downloading and uploading to be around 20-30 GB a month, and I uploaded a bunch of stuff from a cruise last month that pushed me over 50 GB.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
The real BS is if you have U-Verse
which is supposed to be IPTV. In other words, the bits I’m using for TV are the same bits I’m using to write this. I can watch TV 24/7 for the same price, but if I use 250 GB per month of internet on my computer, I’m screwed
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
This is bullshit I don't know any other way to put it
Not on TV and The Wolf comes with plenty of static in Tracy…guess no A’s baseball for me today! (probably the same thing next thursday since the pocket schedule says no Comcast coverage)
by Po' Boy on Apr 2, 2011 12:46 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Not on CSNCA they aren't, at least on my TV.
And the soccer game shows on CSNBA for me.
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For me its:
CSNBA Warriors
CSNCA Sharks
and + ’Quakes
all with 7:30 starts
What I don’t get is that I seem to remember this being a 1:05 start, why push it to 6:05 if there wasn’t an open spot across the CSN networks.
Oh yeah, the Warriors are playing tonight
I don’t get them up here anyway.
And if they played at 1:05 we wouldn’t be seeing the game anyway thanks to FOX.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
meanwhile, the Giants game today is being broadcast on KTVU, local (antenna OTA)
which the A’s used to be able to do on Channel 36 for at least a few games every season.
And yes, people did watch those games. I can’t tell you how many people who can’t have dishes and don’t want to deal with comcast have expressed frustration at not being able to see at least some games on non-cable/dish TV.
Yeah, that was me.
Whereas everyone complained about “Action 36/Cable 6”, I loved that channel cause we didn’t get FSN.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
if it starts before 6 PM, FOX and MLB say no TV for you
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
Yet it starts AFTER 6pm (6:05pm), so no excuses.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah, just saw that
well, thats lame. Plus everyone else is broadcasting games before 6 today
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
Most Cable providers are doing a free week of MLB Extra Innings
My guide shows DirecTV is broadcasting the Mariners feed on channel 739. Will it be blacked out? IDK.
OT: Whoa, Tejada batting leadoff for the Giants today.
When was the last time that happened?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
That Tejada led off for the Giants?
That Tejada led off? That a manager did something absurdly random and without logic? That I couldn’t find my pants?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
heh
That Tejada led off, period. I think you would have to go back to when he first came up with the A’s. He’s only had 5 career games in the leadoff spot.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
What's weird to me about it is that
he’s neither fast (at this stage of his career) nor is his strength “high OBP,” so there’s no apparent rhyme or reason for it. Maybe because he’s had two really bad games, they want to get him more/early ABs because he’s anxious to succeed? I’m grasping at straws, trying to think like Bochy here.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Or maybe they're searching for the best "Aaron Rowand comp" they can find,
since Rowand was such a brilliant choice to lead-off.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Dunno, I think Bochy just wants a righty (they're going against Lilly), non-Roward option at the top.
Honestly, I would move Sanchez to leadoff, Belt to second. The kid’s already shown remarkable plate discipline.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Apr 2, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Something tells me it's more about Tejada than it is about strategy.
But who knows.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
WHen was the last time someone lead off for the Giants that shouldn't
because their OBP was under .320?
I dunno, yesterday?
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot," or "Gambit"
tejada has 20 at bats as a lead off hitter (more than i thought). not sure about plate appearances. the last time was 1999.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Not sure if I've missed anyone saying that Cahill ought not to have been pulled after 4.2 IP at all.
Having your Opening Day starter on such a short leash is pretty annoying. Cahill hadn’t lost velocity (we thought, from Sec. 121). He was facing Langerhans with 2 out, and the end of the M’s lineup is pretty atrocious.
If Cahill comes out in the 6th, faces the 8-9 hitters laughers, then he can be pulled at 115 pitches instead. If Blevins can get Ichiro out, then we’ve got three innings for Wuertz, Balfour, and Fuentes. Why is that so hard?
I felt like our worst relievers were in at the highest leverage moments, and then Wuertz pitched an inning when the game was lost. (I know, there’s still a lack of confidence in Wuertz, but stil…)
"Honestly, the more I teach, the more I find myself in favor of medication. I don't think kids should take any, though." - Nico
He was pulled at the right time
There’s no reason to have him throwing over 110 pitches on Opening Night.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Chalk that up to Kouz, though, who cost him a ton of pitches.
I’m not sure I understand why over 110 pitches is so bad. The reason I suggested to leave him in was to gear toward the strengths of our pen, rather than the weaknesses.
"Honestly, the more I teach, the more I find myself in favor of medication. I don't think kids should take any, though." - Nico
Yeah, he was hurt by defense
But in your first start of the season, there’s no reason to have a guy throw that many pitches, especially when it’s still the middle of the game.
Last year Cahill threw 110+ pitches five times and in four of those he pitched at least 8 innings or into the 8th. His highest, 116, game in a 6-inning performance.
Also, last year in his first seven starts (mostly in May since he missed much of April) he threw over 100 pitches twice (both 106). The average for the seven was 94.6. After that he was around 100-110 fairly often.
But no, there’s no need to throw a ton of pitches in your first start.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I guess i'm just jealous.
As my game companion said, “You can bet Felix isn’t on a pitch count.” Not that he ended up needing one.
"Honestly, the more I teach, the more I find myself in favor of medication. I don't think kids should take any, though." - Nico
Well, he ended with 108 for a CG
If anything, not only did the poor defense behind Cahill hurt him, getting as many strikeouts as he did also drove up his pitch count early.
Felix Hernandez is a different story, anyway. Last year he was under 100 pitches in just five of his starts, over 120 in three, and 110+ in 23 of 34.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Felix is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Cahill isn't.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
And that is the true source of my discontent.
"Honestly, the more I teach, the more I find myself in favor of medication. I don't think kids should take any, though." - Nico
64 is terrific
Unless it’s in one inning.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Agreed.
I didn’t mean to imply that Cahill was pitching a good game, though I feel confident in saying he didn’t pitch a bad one, either. I was just scheming about keeping him around a few more batters so we could play to bullpen strength, not weakness.
"Honestly, the more I teach, the more I find myself in favor of medication. I don't think kids should take any, though." - Nico
On the positive side
With the errors that is all the errors for the week
Join my Quest to bring Back Faith and Family Values in America!!! http://faithandvalues.blogspot.com/
by Athletic on Apr 2, 2011 11:31 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Checking the result of the slegn-KC day game today
gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
I smiled.
The A’s can cut and run, or they can wipe the blood from their face and rise, eyes ablaze and fists cocked.
by Leopold Bloom on Apr 2, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions
You tailgating again today?
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Westside Club.
The A’s can cut and run, or they can wipe the blood from their face and rise, eyes ablaze and fists cocked.
by Leopold Bloom on Apr 2, 2011 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe 4:30.
The A’s can cut and run, or they can wipe the blood from their face and rise, eyes ablaze and fists cocked.
by Leopold Bloom on Apr 2, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, scored some tickets through CL.
I’ll be there at 4:30ish.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
when you getting there
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
The boys really want to go tonight but I gotta buy 3 tickets
or 4 since my brother talked about going, too.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
is tonight's game not televised?!?!?
I see the warriors on fsnba, the sharks on fsnca, and no sign of the a’s anywhere on my comcast guide…what;s the deal?!?! It’s game 2!!
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Apr 2, 2011 2:11 PM PDT reply actions
Kurt Suzuki is in the lineup
Jane Lee Tweeted:
Suzuki says he’s still a little sore but “good to go.” Says it can’t get worse so he can handle the pain.
I think this is where I facepalm and wonder how much attention he’s paid to the number of A’s on the DL over the last few years, and how an ankle sprain can’t get any worse if you’re able to at least go out and play the next day. Of course it can get worse.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
And SuSlu adds
Suzuki said it took a whole roll of tape but his ankle isn’t moving anywhere and he can’t hurt it further so he’s good to go.
Yeah, going out and playing on that is a great idea.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Yeah that's why you have a capable backup catcher, Kurt
I appreciate the sentiment, but take a freaking night off.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 2, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
This is where the trainers and manager need to step in and say "No, you're resting a couple days"
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Apr 2, 2011 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well he learned from Jason Kendall so it's
not all that surprising.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 2, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Especially since there happens to be a night game followed by a day game --
might as well take one of them off anyway, so make it tonight. Duh.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The thing about last night's game
is that this game had very little to do with managing. It was the players who booted five balls and the normally reliable bullpen also sucking. If anyone ever said to me that the A’s would commit five errors in a game and Felix Hernandez was the opposing pitcher, you would automatically mark it down for a loss.
I’ll tell you this much, I don’t suspect that the A’s will be committing five errors a game and the bullpen will usually be a lot better than it was, particularly against a poor offense like the M’s. That’s the good news.
The funny part is, Cahill had, what, eight strikeouts? Imagine how many balls the defense might’ve booted last night had Cahill induced ground balls like he’s capable of.
You have to just write the game off against Felix as what most would’ve expected, a dominating pitching performance against an improved but still not great offense (with a nice assist from defense and bullpen that was off last night). That’s the thing that scares me about this team in 2011. Even if the A’s pitching (starting and bullpen) is as great as it should be, the offense is still going to struggle against the best pitchers in baseball because it still isn’t great. Should the team win the West somehow, it’s still going to have a very hard time in the postseason because all they’re going to see come October is great pitching.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 2, 2011 2:59 PM PDT reply actions
That was the same knock on the 2010 Giants
They got some good midseason pickups, had special production from some vets, and one great rookie after trading the veteran away.
by OaklandSi on Apr 2, 2011 3:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
"the normally reliable bullpen"
When was the last time the A’s middle inning pitchers were reliable? Not this spring and not in any recent year.
OT
My wife made a funny. Watching Aaron Rowand’s stance at the plate today “He looks like a little kid playing baseball with his penis!”
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
My lame brother in law was complaining about baseball being boring last night on facebook (he was at the game last night)
this was my response to him.
you need to learn to enjoy the subtle nuances of the game. The crack of the bat, the pop of a fastball in the glove, the crazy stances of the batters, the superstitions of the starting pitcher, the anticipation of the pitch, the drama of the bases loaded. Baseball is great because you can discuss whats happening while it’s happing. Day games are fun to because you can enjoy the sunshine.
ALSO no sport is fun if the team playing is being sloppy, making errors, and losing. that’s why there are 162 games though, tomorrow is a brand new day, no need to stew over a loss for a week (he is a college football fan,born and raised in Oregon) . Winning is always more fun.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
In his defense
If someone isn’t taught how to look for and follow some of those things, it can’t just be picked up on in short order. For people like us who have followed baseball for years we know about the subtle nuances, but I don’t know what kind of viewing history he’s got.
Sometimes it takes others showing stuff like positioning, how you pitch someone, etc.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Yes
Think of it like this, mic. If aliens landed and we showed them baseball, how long would it take them to figure out just WTF was going on? And then, how long would it take them to learn to appreciate it? For the uninitiated, I would say that baseball is the least interesting major sport to watch on TV. In many ways, it’s really hard to be a “casual” baseball fan that actually understands the game, simply because there’s so much to understand.
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
(Also, the crack of the bat and the pop of a fastball in the glove aren't really nuances)
Last of the Ninth - Photography
oh
I guess I misunderstood the way to use that word.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Heh
I mean, I consider nuances to be the little bits of strategy, mainly, the stuff that goes on between each and every pitch and situation.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I understand but it's not like he doesn't know the basics of the game
If he doesn’t like it fine, then don’t come to the game and complain and make fun of my team while they are sucking and then say he is there to spend quaility time with me.
it’s more of just me being annoyed about that.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Did you buy him a ticket?
"Hey anyone can join in...as long as they talk about me." - Mr. Bed
"If aliens were going to communicate with Earth, they'd contact you first." - my GF
by cuppingmaster on Apr 2, 2011 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Green, Cramer, Ross & and Loss
As Nico suggests, strategic decisions are part of what makes baseball fascinating. As I watched the winnable opener fall apart, my thoughts went to the decision to ship out Ross, clearly the best guy available for the role of long man. Who made that decision—BB or BG?
oh yea
Because we have tons of terrific middle role people already, but we desperately need some good starters.
Ross is going to be more useful as someone who can step in and start if and when...
…one of the current starters go down due to injury, or in McCarthy’s case, being potentially ineffective.
The rest of the starters in Sacramento don’t really impress me at this stage.
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In other words
He’s too good to be “merely” a middle role pitcher.
And we wonder why our long men, middle relievers, etc. suck and lose us games.
We should be taking our most promising pitchers who can start strong in their first inning them and putting them in middle roles. And giving them bobble head days, jersey days and raises to emphasize their importance.
All the good starters in the world count for much less if the batters drive up their pitch counts as yesterday. (It wasn’t the errors that drove up Cahill’s pitch count so precipitously, BTW. That’s a read herring. It was an intentional Mariner strategy and it worked wonders). Driving out our best pitchers to be replaced by our worst pitchers is a repeatable strategy for our opponents and we will be seeing it all season and on into the future until we get some good middle role pitchers.
By the way, find me a team that does this
Your long reliever is not supposed to be one of your most promising pitchers. He’s the guy you use when you need someone to eat innings and save your bullpen.
Your relief pitchers who aren’t either the closer or setup guy ARE supposed to be good enough to use in most any other situation, whether it’s an inning or a batter depending on the situation.
The only time you really see a bullpen guy who isn’t in one of these roles not actually get used is when you’ve got a Rule 5 person the team is trying to hold on to without having to throw him into stressful situations. That’s something the A’s have done before and handled poorly.
But, this argument about taking their most promising pitchers who can have a strong first inning and making them relievers in “middle” roles…this really has nothing to do with Tyson Ross or any other starter. Nothing at all.
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You know what's worse than being wrong?
Being wrong and redundant. We got the sentiment the first time, dude!
The reality is that if any pitcher can be a #3 starter or better, you are better off putting them in the rotation than in the bullpen. Ross’ upside is considered to be that of a #2 starter, so no he shouldn’t be groomed to be a middle reliever until he proves he can’t make it as a #2 or #3 starter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ross
better than two of Cahill, Anderson, and Gio, three of the top pitchers in the league?
And since my three points haven’t been addressed, much less well rebutted, what’s the harm of repeating them?
The harm is that it's irritating and unnecessary,
since on a blog people can re-read if they please. Again, if you have a pitcher who can either be an average major league starter or a reliever of any quality, you are always better off starting him.
You are also vastly overestimating the A’s starting pitching depth. You need more than 5 starting pitchers to get through a season, and would be foolish not to plan for some setbacks with your best 5. Especially when two of them are Anderson and Braden.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
you are always better off starting him?
I have rebutted this claim with three very good arguments of my own that have not in turn been rebutted.
As for depth, this is readily provided by moving starters between the majors and AAA. Combined with the improved option to take out starters very early when they are having a bad day, provided by putting a good pitcher at long man, and depth for even the first half of the game is better covered under my proposal than currently.
"I have rebutted this claim with three very good arguments of my own"
No, you really haven’t whatsoever, especially if you think it makes sense to make Gio Gonzalez a relief pitcher instead of a starter.
To say that argument is lacking logic and common sense would be polite.
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OK so my three arguments that you haven't even mentioned muich less addressed
all “lack logic and common sense” simply because you don’t want to bother with them. If you wanted to bother with them, I assume you would actually bother to mention what they are. Or you might even get ambitious and point out where they lack logic if you are going to accuse them in this sweeping way of lacking logic. But you can’t even be bothered with mentioning them much less pointing out any point at which they’re wrong. Perhaps you don’t even know what they are, even though you have accused me of needlessly repeating them? Just throw out a few insults in my general direction and you think that’s a rational rebuttal?
There's really no reasoning with your position
So why bother further?
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Ross & the Loss
I hear what you’re saying. I would argue that it would have made sense to keep Ross as long man UNTIL the full compliment of relievers is back up to speed—and then let Ross go back to Sackamenna and resume his development as a starter. Having watched the guy pitch in AZ, including his outing against the D-Backs a week ago, I would say his future in the bigs is definitely as a starter.
OMG I'm bowled over by your intellect
You’re so right and I’m so wrong. It’s so obvious why bother to actually address my arguments?
I'm also bowled over by my "reply" skills
That was to flashfire’s “No it doesn’t — BOTTOM LINE”
Your arguments have already been very much addressed
You just aren’t listening to them.
There is no sense in training Ross as a long man or this imaginary role of some “most promising pitcher” that apparently is a starter and also apparently skilled at having a great first inning, especially since by putting him in Sacramento as a starter, the A’s have basically said “this is what we see him being most useful to us as.”
If McCarthy didn’t have the kind of spring he did, we’d almost certainly be seeing Ross as their 5th starter right now. Then McCarthy might’ve been the long reliever instead of Cramer because neither of those guys has the potential Ross does.
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repeating your arguments and ignoring mine
does not constitute addressing my arguments.
My point is the “McCarthy might’ve been the long reliever instead of Cramer because neither of those guys has the potential Ross does” is fundamentally flawed rationale for choosing a pticher’s role. My point is the more promising pitcher should be chosen for middle roles instead of starter, as long as they start strong in their first inning. A proper rebuttal to my point would be if (a) Ross has poor first innings or (b) you rebut one or my more of my three arguments for choosing better rather than worse pitchers for the middle roles. Neither has occurred.
I have three very good reasons for choosing better rather than worse pitchers for middle roles which I have stated. I won’t repeat them here since I’m now being accused of repeating myself. But if you aren’t addressing those three reasons then you aren’t addressing my argument, you’re just ignoring it.
So who else should have got this role you're talking about?
Because Ross isn’t it.
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if not Ross
then Gio, assuming, as somebody has suggested, that of all our good starters Gio starts the strongest in his first inning. And along with moving Gio to long man give him a big raise and a jersey day to erase the traditional idea that this is a demotion. And either Cramer or Ross get the 5th starter spot. Yes, that’s a radical suggestion, but whoever doesn’t like it should try addressing my three very good arguments about why putting our better rather than our worse pitchers in middle roles is needed now.
It might also be worthwhile looking at whether Balfour or Bailey can go several innings when Bailey gets healthy,. because we don’t need two closers. We need good pitchers in the important role(s) between starter and closer.
The reason middle relief isn't valuable
Middle relievers very seldom come in in high leverage situations. If a starter gets pulled off after 4.2 IP it’s not normally a close game. Unfortunately, yesterday was actually a situation where a shut down middle reliever would’ve been vital. Another time middle relievers could be essential is in long extra inning games. At almost all other times, a middle reliever like Cramer will only be used in mopup situations.
A solid starter on the other hand can influence to a great degree every one of his starts. If Ross has the potential to be a good starter, a loss like yesterday is worth the wins that Ross could create in the rotation.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
If a starter gets pulled off after 4.2 IP it’s not normally a close game?
I’d like to see the actual numbers. And even if it was true you have 4.1 innings to catch up.
Also, giving up on the importance of middle pitching because you consider these games lost causes is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If teams normally can’t catch up in this situation it’s probably because they’ve replaced their best pitchers with their worst ones. Because they’ve made their best pitchers starters and put their worst ones in middle roles. Having done that of course the odds of winning don’t recover when the starter leaves the game.
Furthermore, good middle role pitchers would give you the option to pull a starter having a bad day before the team gets so far behind that it’s a lost cause.
If a starter gets pulled off after 4.2 IP it’s not normally a close game?
In what world other than both team’s pitchers are getting absolutely rocked does this not ring true? That you have to even question this is silly.
Your second paragraph is also rather strange. You’re treating this situation like the A’s have the Yankee’s offense, as if any kind of lead is nothing at all. If you put out an anemic offense out like the A’s and are down five or six runs, I don’t care if you throw out the best relief pitcher possible, 99.99999999999999% of the time, the A’s are not going to come back. It’s not self-defeating, its reality. And if you put out mediocre pitchers in starting, you’ll be in these crappy situations more often. Bad days will happen and hopefully having your best starters will negate that problem as much as possible.
This is all very true, and I don't know why he's ignoring it
To use his Gio Gonzalez example, as good as Gonzalez is you want him on the hill, starting, every 5th day instead of keeping him aside for some sort of long relief role or an inning in a close game. He gives you a much better chance of winning on the day he pitches when he’s starting than he ever would as a “middle relief” pitcher, and that’s compounded by what would happen if you put some mediocre Triple-A guy in his place in the rotation. Then you’re already likely to see that guy knocked around and need to use your bullpen and/or Gonzalez, and your chances of winning are a lot less.
The entire idea is absurd.
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I mean, I KINDA understand where he's coming from
It would be freaking awesome to have a relief pitching squad that was as good as your starting pitchers. But unless your entire rotation is freaking amazing with ridiculous depth, I don’t see why you would see sacrifice putting your best pitchers in as starters in exchange for your best talent in relief.
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