Trevor Cahill: A Product Of Park, Defense, Luck...And 4 Things He CAN Control
First of all, if you missed DFA's excellent Monday piece on Trevor Cahill, give it a look when you have a chance. With Jack Cust having taken his unique brand of walks and strickouts to Pike's Place Market, and with Adrian Beltre's destination and earnings no longer in limbo, Cahill stands alone as AN's most polarizing figure. That is, pretty much the only thing we can all agree on is that we can't agree on exactly how good the baby-faced righty is and/or will be. This is because when looking at Cahill's 2010 season on a 0-100 scale, depending on what you look at you are likely to draw highly disparate conclusions.
On one hand, at the most cursory glance (18 wins for a team with a mediocre offense, a 2.97 ERA pitching in the American League, a BAA (batting average against) of just .220), you might give Cahill a rating of "90" -- about the rating you would give a pitcher who wasn't quite a serious contender for the Cy Young award but who was "in the conversation for top 10"; not the elite of the elite but an excellent pitcher who is better than about 90% of his peers.
On the other hand, looking at the most sophisticated and predictive metrics (a tERA of 4.38, an xFIP of 4.11, an unsustainable BABIP of .236, and a K/9IP rate of just 5.40), you might give Cahill a rating of "60" -- about the rating you would give a pitcher who was slightly above average but needed a ton of luck, defense, and park advantages to produce great win, ERA, and BAA numbers; a decent pitcher who is better than only about 60% of his peers.
No wonder discussions about Cahill's skills are so contentious: On a 0-100 scale, a difference of 30 is huge! In order to determine Cahill's "true talent level" in that possible 60-90 range, we need to distinguish between the qualities Cahill can control and the qualities which depend on factors Cahill cannot control. This post attempts, after the jump, to answer the question of what rating Cahill really deserves going forward, and why -- specifically focusing on four key attributes Cahill actually brings to the table that make him legitimately better than the predictive metrics show.
"Pitcher Fielding"
Though the sample is still small because his career spans only two seasons, fielding metrics rate Trevor Cahill as one of the league's better fielding pitchers. This is highly significant because Cahill is strongly a ground ball pitcher, and thus how he fields his position is actually more tied in to his success than, say, how Barry Zito (a fly ball pitcher) fields his position.
Cahill's fielding stats may be enhanced by inducing more soft ground balls, which are more likely than sharp ground balls, line drives, or fly balls, to be fielded by a pitcher. But bear in mind that Cahill's nickname, "Pterodactyl," comes from his large "wingspan," so some of the enhancement may also come from his ability to reach more balls that are headed up the middle than other pitchers can reach.
Stop for a moment and just consider how significant it could be if a ground ball pitcher, who is his team's 5th infielder, can offer appreciably more range than average on fielding ground balls to the left and right sides of the diamond's spine. I don't know if the A's intentionally position Mark Ellis and Cliff Pennington a step more to the hole when Cahill is pitching (this is a question I intend specifically to ask Mike Gallego et al when I'm at spring training mid-March), but if so then by being able to rely on Cahill to stop more bouncers up the middle, the A's are simultaneously able to put their middle infielders in position to get to more ground balls between 3B/SS and between 1B/2B. That's three key holes on the infield better covered because of an attribute Cahill himself brings to the mound.
"Quality of Contact"
This is a controversial concept and one we do not yet have the Pitch F/X data to confirm or deny in a scientific and data-based way. I am honestly surprised, though, that it is so hard to get consensus on what seems to me like an intuitively self-evident notion: That not all pitchers induce batters to hit ground balls the same way.
It's not a matter of pitchers shaking off the slider, then shaking off the changeup, nodding their head to the third sign and intentionally throwing a "hit the top part but don't miss it entirely ball," which is a nonsensical notion. Here's what's going on...
There are some pitches designed to miss bats entirely. One, thanks to it's velocity, is the fastball. Another, thanks to the sharp break that makes it difficult to track, is the curveball. Another, due to its "late diving action," is the splitter. (Please note that when I refer to "late movement" on pitches, I am referring to what the batter perceives, not necessarily to the ball's actual path. What the batter sees/perceives/experiences is far more important than what is actually happening.)
Meanwhile, there are other pitches that are designed less to miss bats and more to miss the sweet part of the bat. One, thanks to its late movement, is the cutter. (There's a reason that Mariano Rivera breaks so many bats every season. Rivera has also put up solid K/rates in his career, but that is due, separately, to the unusual velocity and command he has with his cutter.) Another is the sinker, a pitch whose movement is significant enough to be hard to "square up," but which doesn't miss as many bats entirely because it lacks the velocity of a two-seam fastball or the sharp break of the curve.
Cahill's sinker has a ton of movement, much of it down and some of it in/away, and when batters make contact they often either "beat the ball into the ground" because they hit the top of the ball, and/or they hit the ball off "the sweet spot" of the bat (off the end of the bat or on the hands).
What this produces is a lot of medium ground balls (these are the routine two-hoppers to 2B, the tappers to 3B, the rollers to SS, etc.), and a lot of soft, or "mis-hit," ground balls (these are the dribblers in front of the plate, the choppers up the 1B line, the squibbers between the mound and 3B, etc.).
One rebuttal that has been made to the notion that Cahill is an outlier in getting an inordinate number of low quality of contact ground balls is that "the hardest ground balls to convert into outs are really hard grounders and really soft grounders. So is Cahill somehow magically avoiding difficult to field hard grounders while not avoiding difficult to field soft grounders?" The answer is no. He gets plenty of very soft grounders; he just converts more of them into outs than most pitchers do. Why? Because guess who his 5th infielder, the guy whose fielding ability comes into play a lot dribblers and squibbers, is? Trevor Cahill, one of the league's better fielding pitchers.
The Benefits of a Low "Slugging Against" Profile
Ground ball pitchers tend, by nature, to give up more singles but fewer extra-base hits, than average, simply because ground balls tend to find more holes than fly balls do but when not successfully fielded, fly balls have more of a tendency to become doubles, triples, and homeruns.
We've just looked at how/why Cahill might mitigate some of the inherent tendency to give up more singles on ground balls, by inducing a lot of choppers, bouncers, and squibbers, and then unleashing his pterodactyl wingspan on some of the balls trying to get through the middle.
However, just by simple regression -- be it of luck, defense behind him, or good old fashioned "nowhere to go but up" -- he is almost bound to give up more singles this year than he did in 2010, and if I'm a betting man he's also going to give up more HRs. But as a pitcher with a very good GB/FB ratio, one thing you can reasonably expect from Cahill is that he will limit the number of extra-base hits in general because limiting extra-base hits is one of the things extreme ground ball pitchers do well by the nature of their craft.
What happens when a pitcher gives up some walks and some singles, but not many extra-base hits? You get a lot of innings that go (out, single, out, walk, out), or (single, out, single, DP), or (out, out, single, single, walk, out), or (single, walk, out, DP), or (out, single, out, single, walk, out)...
What you're seeing is not a lot of runs, but a lot of guys left on base (or wiped out by DPs). Does this remind you of anything? Yes, that's right: Trevor Cahill turns opposing teams into the 2007-2010 Oakland A's offense! Run for the hills! Hide the children! Or don't, because that nightmare we have endured for years is in fact being perpetrated on the opposition.
Do the stats we have available confirm this? A league average "strand rate" is about 72%. Cahill's "strand rate" in 2010 was 76.5% (and remember that runners erased on DPs are not even counted as stranded). Unsustainable and bound to regress? Quite possibly. But will it regress all the way to league average? I'm not so sure it will. Cahill has a skill-set that makes it easier for teams to get runners on base than for them to efficiently move them all the way around. We've seen it for years, only to our great frustration, with Oakland's "middling OBP, middling BA, low slugging" offense.
Adaptability
This is a nebulous concept, but one I want to throw into the conversation because I think it is such an important one when looking at why some players improve, while some stagnate and others disintegrate before our very eyes. Baseball is a game of constant adjustments, and while talent, muscle memory, and health are among the factors that play clearly a huge role, don't be too quick to overlook how essential it is for players to be willing and able to adapt in order to survive and/or thrive.
On the more mental level, Bobby Crosby illustrates the pitfalls of a stubbornness that led him once to claim that "his batting approach worked for him in high school and would work for him now," and we saw what his refusal to embrace change brought him. On the more physical level, Crosby also illustrates the results of an inability to recognize a slider better than he did yesterday, so that pitchers have been able to fool him the same way for years.
In contrast, Cahill's teammates have marveled over his adaptability, even noting that he is unusual in his ability to fiddle with new pitches, or grips, or mechanics, in the bullpen, sometimes even fixing a problem during a start. (From the linked article by Susan Slusser: Messing around with grips and trying different things is the norm for him. He said that at one point last year, he threw a cutter for three games after trying one out while throwing on the side with Brett Anderson. "It seemed like he had a new pitch every day," Anderson said. "Like, 'Oh, I'm going to do this now, and I'll be in contention for the Cy Young.' Pretty crazy.")
Have we seen any concrete evidence of this? After failing throughout most of 2009 with a knuckle-curve that was not serving him well at all, Cahill developed a slider. It wasn't a good one, but it was a slight upgrade and Cahill finished the 2009 season a little stronger than he started it. Then he upgraded again, this time to a curve ball which was much more effective than the slider that had been a little more effective (or less ineffective) than the knuckle-curve.
That a 21-22 year old was able to adapt his repertoire, in real time, while pitching in the big leagues, is significant. The fact that Cahill appears to be ready, willing, and able to adapt is a very good sign if you're trying to figure out whether he will find a way specifically to improve his K-rates, or will find a way generally to adjust back to the adjustments batters make.
The Grand Conclusion?
What I have not discussed in depth are the factors that are beyond Cahill's control, and those are also very real. The home park he pitches in is very favorable to pitchers, the defense behind him is excellent and could not have hoped for better UZR showings in 2010, and no matter how much skill he brought to the party, Cahill's BAA (.220) and BABIP (.236) suggest that if Lady Luck played a part in Cahill's 2010 season, she was a huge fan.
At the same time, however, Cahill's own fielding ability, which is especially significant because he is a ground ball pitcher, his ability to produce weaker-than-average contract with a pitch that has exceptional movement to oft escape the sweet part of the bat or ball, his capacity to force teams to build station-to-station rallies, and his adaptability, are attributes that are within Cahill's control. He brings them to the mound in whatever park he pitches, in front of any defense, and within the framework of any level of luck.
For the sake of simplicity (since I have no exact way to assign them values), and round numbers, let's suppose that the four factors I have discussed at length (fielding, quality of contact, suppressing slugging, adaptability) average out to be worth, on that 0-100 scale, about 15 points total, and that the three factors outside of Cahill's control that are known to be key as well (park, defense, luck) average out to be worth, on average, about 15 total points as well.
You wind up with a pitcher who is, in fact, currently pitching at the level of about a 75, which is where I personally believe Trevor Cahill should currently be rated. If so, this would mean that if in 2011, you are hoping to see an 18-game winner with an ERA under 3.00 who is in the conversation for "Top 10 Cy Young award candidates," you are going to be disappointed. It would also mean you have a pitcher who, as he makes his Cactus League debut on or about his 23rd birthday, is better than 3/4 of his major league peers -- and that's a good thing to have.
Post Script: What might all this translate to in numbers, if Cahill completes a full and basically healthy 2011 season as a pitcher in about the 75th percentile? If you're letting park and defense enter the picture, perhaps it looks something like 15-10, 3.42 ERA with 190 IP, 165 hits, 75 BB, 120 K, a .240 BAA and a .280 BABIP, and if you're looking at more park and defense neutral stats perhaps it looks something like a 3.85 xFIP and a 3.68 tERA -- maybe a tad higher if Cahill, however "really good" or "only decent," does prove to be a bit of a true "FIP-buster" by nature.
461 comments
|
13 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Expected response from snobs:
tl;dr
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, I took "75th percentile" numbers
but then realized (and try to acknowledge at the end) that part of “FIP-busting” means his xFIP and tERA would probably be higher just because the K/BB numbers aren’t “good enough.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't see why he's so polarizing
He’s a between above average and great pitcher who outperformed his peripherals and will almost certainly regress in his common pitching stats this year. (ie era, wins)
Why is this so polarizing?
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 8:09 AM PST reply actions
Because some people are personally offended by statements that he's slightly above average
I’ve no idea why. I was never offended by statements that Jack Cust sucks. I just thought the poster didn’t know what he/she was talking about. As far as I’m concerned Trevor Cahill is slightly above average and young enough to improve. I don’t know why that’s so hard for some people to hear…er see.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 17, 2011 8:12 AM PST up reply actions
The other end of the spectrum gets personally offended too
Some people get outraged by statements that Cahill’s more than slightly above average (or that he’s above average at all). Likewise, even rational criticisms of Cust, such as his steadily declining power, got denied/dismissed by some of his most ardent admirers. Some folks just think they’re right about everything and will broach no disagreement. All you can do is shrug your shoulders and move on.
by andyinfremont on Feb 17, 2011 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Because the advanced metrics don't even think he was above average
and the posters who choose to ignore advanced stats for whatever reason act like the people who do cite the advanced stats are “Cahill haters” or hope that he doesn’t do well so they are proven “right”
Which, of course, is dead wrong. We all want the A’s to win the WS and Cahill to throw 27 pitch perfect games every time he starts.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Really?
Is a FIP 4.19 FIPx 4.11 from a 22 year old not considered above average?
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
The 22 year old part doesn't really count
Pitchers don’t improve with age the same way that batters do (except if you allow for survivor bias, which weeds out the worst pitchers over time)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
That's right I'm remembering that from DFA's piece
It’s hard to believe though that a pitcher doesn’t get better with some experience behind his belt.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
I would think that decline in velocity and increased intelligence would cancel each other out.
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
But what I don't get is 22
It’s not unheard of for college pitchers (drafted at 22/23 years old) to gain a mph or 2 in the minors. 22 is also not completely developed. And as dwishinsky says below learning to pitch rather than throw. I can’t imagine a 22 year old being fully developed.
But I don’t completely doubt the fully develop argument either. For example I read about how 17-19 year old hitters in rookie to A, typically have poor numbers due to pitchers developing much faster than hitters. So obviously there is validity in the argument about 20 year olds being fully mature as pitchers.
But still I’m just not totally sold on the conclusion that 22 year old pitchers don’t get better.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Its not unheard of for college pitchers to drop MPH either and most that gain MPH are a result of a professional training system for a first time in their careers.
There is also the assumption that Cahill will be better just doesn’t make sense especially given that he is a high school pitcher and pitchers development is nothing like a hitter development curve.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 17, 2011 9:15 PM PST up reply actions
Cahil
He was a Shortstop until his senior year. He started pitching when he was 18 years old (IIRC).
by Colorado Fan on Feb 18, 2011 7:11 AM PST up reply actions
I get what you mean
So frequently we say things like pitchers “learn how to pitch” as opposed to just throwing.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
The advanced metrics say he was a bit above average
The rhetoric over whether or not he was “good” seems to cloud this fact.
Random boxscore: 7.1IP 5H 2R 2ER 2BB 4K
That is a well-pitched game, correct? I mean even if after the “5” and each of the “2” there was an asterisk along with a footnote that read: “Yes, but an advanced metric says these should have been higher”. I know I want to call this very good.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily, actually.
Dana Eveland pitched some games where he would walk a guy, then give up a sharp single, then give up a smash down the line that the 3Bman speared to start a 5-3 DP, have another inning like that, and by the end of the appearance it looked good on paper but in fact he had done something that was neither impressive nor sustainable. And of course, it all caught up to him very soon.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Let me rephrase.
That is a very good result and as a fan, one should be pleased with it, correct? And as far a sustainability, that kind of result, or better, was done another 18 times last season by the pterodactyl.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
It's a result I'm very pleased to see 19 times by my pitcher, fo' shizzle.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And these helped produce an overall very good result on the season, correct?
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
Yes.
The debate is largely over how much it was essential to that result to have Kouz and Ellis, and not Butcher McKicky and Bobble McOops out there.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2011 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good!
I just wanted to make sure that it was pretty much a unanimous opinion that his results on the 2010 season were very good. At this point it’s as important for me to push this idea as it is for others to push the idea that he’s very lucky. The two opinions can be held together — and I do hold both of them.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
It depends what you mean by results
The number of runs allowed while he was pitching was great.
The relationship between the number of strikeouts he got and the number of homeruns and walks he allowed was about average.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Number of runs allowed, yes.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
but you cant attribute that to him.
If Cahill was the only person on the field all of his ground balls go for hits
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 17, 2011 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
That's been established and would go for flyball pitchers as well.
So, given that what was being discussed above was the results — the results being the number of runs allowed when Cahill pitched — I do not understand the ‘hate on Cahill’ that you’re seemingly pushing right here after what I had carefully tried to establish.
Your comment just seems like you want a regression in the dialogue. Has DFA regressed to being the mean?
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 18, 2011 3:10 AM PST up reply actions
You didn't establish anything besides the teams RA.
You have failed to establish any quantifiable effect on the team that Cahill had.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 18, 2011 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
Strikeouts are more important to a strikeout pitcher than they are to a groundball pitcher.
Ideally, everyone would be a high strikeout, low BB pitcher. But that’s not everyone’s game. A sinkerballer is trying to induce weak contact and is depending on the defense to make the play. The better the defense and luck, the better the results. He’s depending on double-plays to erase his BB’s and seeing eye singles. In high leverage situation’s with multiple runners on base. This is when a sinkerballer can be very effective.
That’s why I don’t get all this “he was lucky” stuff. Well, no ****, he’s a sinkerballer. They rely on defense and luck.
So sure, better to be a high strikeout pitcher, but that doesn’t mean that sinkerballers are without value. If your judging his value by K’s and BB’s to a lesser degree your comparing an apple to an orange.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
I don't think anyone said Cahill was or is without value, just
less value than Anderson, who’s also a GB pitcher but then with more Ks
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:03 AM PST up reply actions
um...because I'm a poler bear? Jeez....some people.
Waffle House is good for two things: 1 – coffee; 2 – finding cheap whores -- Jennifer
by Leopold Bloom on Feb 18, 2011 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
Great piece Nico and one more thing to look at...
How good is he at holding on baserunners? It’s for sure part of the things he can control and I think it parallels the low slugging against section. (I remember seeing that he’s above average but I’m unable to find anything to confirm my not always correct memory)
He’s the typical ground ball pitcher, who will see balls find holes, and (a single, stolen base, single) will hurt him.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 8:17 AM PST reply actions
Fangraphs gives him 1 run from SB prevention in 2010 and 0 runs in 2009.
They think he’s basically average at it.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 17, 2011 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
ok so it's rSB
on fangraphs right? Thanks!
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions
Hey, here's a shock: Harden shut down with stiffness in his lats!
Harden has stiffness in lat area. Shut down for a few weeks. #Athletics
Harden threw 10-15 pitches Tuesday and felt a little stiffness that didn’t improve immediately. #Athletics
Geren says, "It could definitely affect the fifth starter spot " but he calls Harden’s lat stiffness “just a minor setback.” #Athletics
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Just saw that
In other words, RIP Rich Harden
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 8:34 AM PST up reply actions
I really want them to get a real starter for that 5th spot
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 17, 2011 8:34 AM PST up reply actions
We have Bobby Cramer, who might actually be able to hold it down.
He’s just like Cahill except he will probably pitch TO his peripherals! lol
Buy some class, act like you've been there before.
He could actually be the 5th starter
I’m with WC, though. I’d love to have Joe Blanton back or someone like that.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
cramer has excellent control. i think suzuki called him a left handed duchscherer...which is a good thing
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Cramer wasn't nearly as good as his ERA was last year.
Whether he has actually developed a decent changeup like he said he did in FF’s interview, or whether it’s your average “best shape of my life” spring training talk remains to be seen. Barring any drastic improvements, he’s probably last on the depth chart for the fifth starter position after a healthy Outman, McCarthy, Ross, and Harden.
Well, maybe he’s ahead of Harden.
John Maine
Who Colorado got today would’ve been a nice pick up at that price.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Eh, Maine's only had one good year (2007)
and he was really, really bad last year. The A’s have better internal options.
I love the idea of going after Travis Wood
Stuck in a roster crunch the past couple years in Cincy. Stellar numbers in AAA and had always been one of my favorite prospects. He was pretty good in his half-season last year. If he gets beat out by Leake he might be someone worth looking at. Projects to be a solid 4/5 at the least.
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
www.domingobeisbol.com/Domingo/Home.html
Shoulda looked here before I made a fanpost.
Well….That plan didnt last long now did it?
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Harden's body is like a traumatized dog
It sees a baseball and just preemptively shuts down.
by UrgentMirth on Feb 17, 2011 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
But he's not permanently broken, honest
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Nice try Nico -- taking your points one by one
1) Fielding — would definitely help a pitcher outperform his peripherals
2) Weak contact — GB pitchers with low K-rates typically don’t outperform their peripherals. Just ask Justin Masterson.
3) Low slugging — true of all GB pitchers and taken into account in peripherals
4) Adaptability — He certainly improved a lot from 2009 to 2010 so I hope he can continue to do so. He’s certainly young enough
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
i dont know if i agree with 2
i actually think its an interesting area of study, and the truth might be the opposite.
tim hudson is a good example. his career ERA is 3.46. career FIP 4.08. career xFIP 4.12. k/9 6.09.
Very interesting comparable....
Very similar to Cahill’s numbers last year. (Though the strikeout are lower with trevor.)
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
apologies - i was looking at the wrong stat line
hudson’s actual career numbers are:
3.42 era;
3.82 fip;
3.80 xfip; and
6.06 k/9.
the point remains.
3's not true, either
this is the GB=singles v FB=doubles and triples issue that FIP does not deal with.
That's a good reason not to use FIP here
But, fortunately, there are stats that account for this (and they essentially agree with FIP in Cahill’s case)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Justin Masterson's problem
Is that his stuff isn’t good enough to get left-handed hitters out.
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
www.domingobeisbol.com/Domingo/Home.html
Quality of contact
It is actually true that some pitchers are better at throwing GBs. What I don’t think is true, is that pitchers have control over the type of grounders hit. That would mean, then, that some guys can induce an [n]-hopper, whereas other guys induce slow rollers. We need hit f/x to conclude anything meaningful about groundball type.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
Doesn't it matter where the ball hits the bat?
For instance, aren’t Mariano Rivera grounders pretty damn good if the ball is meeting the bat at the end of the barrel (vs. RH Hitters) and in-on-the-hands to LH Hitters? The velocity the ball comes off the bat in both of these situations means something, right? Mariano doesn’t “control” this situation at all?
by Colorado Fan on Feb 17, 2011 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
That is probably cancelled out by batter adjustments (to the extent they happen)
And the fact that he can’t control HOW a batter swings. Rivera can control that he’s a GB pitcher, though.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Batter adjustments? To Mo Rivera?
I agree that batters adjust to starters whom they might get a couple-three at bats against.
In a 3-game series, if a batter is extremely ‘lucky’ (not), he might get to face Rivera three times, spread over three games. I don’t think he’s going to do a lot of adjusting.
Rivera, by his extremely long history of pretty untouchable stuff (with only one pitch) is probably the guy you least want to use to make your generally valid point. Most pitchers can’t control what comes off the bat (as opposed of course to the obvious fact that the bat itself is actually in the batter’s hands, not the pitcher’s), but it’s actually possible Rivera somewhat can…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Feb 17, 2011 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
Colo fan used it, I was just responding to him
But, if there is an outlier whom you could argue that MIGHT be able to control GB characteristics, it would probably be Rivera. Everyone else probably has no case for that.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
Relievers seem to be able to sustain lower BABIP than starters, so there might be something to this
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Wouldn't crappy pitchers, coaches that throw BP, and pitching machines...
…be able to sustain a higher BABiP if they were ever tried in game situations? Pitchers and people/things that hurl baseballs can affect BABiP based on what they’re doing to the baseball, correct?
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 17, 2011 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
Sure
but there’s a practical ceiling on the degree to which one can impact BABIP in the major leagues, just like there’s a practical ceiling on the speed with which a person can run 100 meters.
It’s not that everyone and anyone has the same true talent BABIP, it’s that everyone except the very best at it get selected out long before sniffing the majors, and the difference among the remainder is just not very high in practical terms.
People keep making the mistake of assuming that MLB players are normally distributed and so there must be pitchers who are “really good” at BABIP, just like there are ones that are really bad at it. That’s just not so. As I’ve emphasized a number of times, we are looking at the radical right edge of a talent bell curve here.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
think of it this way
have you ever watched batting practice?
The balls being hit aren’t all going to be hits right?
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Yes, I have indeed watched Cedric Bowers pitch
And you are incorrect. All the balls being hit are going to be hits.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
People keep confusing
“He can control it” (as if he decides, “I want them to hit it like this”), and “What he throws naturally produces this” (like, “When batters hit his sinkers on the ground, compared to the average sinker, batters tend not to hit it as often in the middle of the ball on the sweet part of the bat”).
Those are two entirely different concepts, the first of which is absurd and the second of which might actually explain some of Cahill’s success.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
i really, really want to believe you. but that would make him an extraordinarily unique talent in history. or am i wrong?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
More like "in the 95th percentile in that one area"
Kind of like knuckleballers can be in the top 5% in “consistently suppressing BABIP.” Sinkerballers with extraordinary movement on their pitches are the ones you’d expect might well be in that “top 5%” group in the specific category of “weak contact on ground balls.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
i agree but are there other examples that might suggest cahill can hold his very low babip (with his pitching style)?
i mean…brett anderson is every bit the ground ball pitcher cahill is. better k/bb ratio. more sustainable babip. better era and alt metrics.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Can Cahill hold up a babip like .236? No.
One like .280? Maybe. To me the best comp for Cahill, all things considered, is Derek Lowe (nasty sinker, K-rate a little under 6.00, “very good but not Cy Young good” pitcher).
Lowe does have better BB rates than Cahill probably ever will, but otherwise they have an awful lot in common. Lowe’s career BABIP is .293. I’d say put Lowe at the Coliseum with an excellent infield defense behind him and he’d put up a very low (.280-ish) BABIP overall.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Right, and this may reflect that while
Anderson, like Cahill, gets a lot of ground balls, Anderson’s arsenal doesn’t naturally produce as many that are low quality of contact — which would make sense in that the distinguishing strength of Cahill’s stuff is “insane movement on his sinker,” while Anderson’s are his “miss bats slider” and his “excellent command.”
The .303 BABIP could also just be a small sample fluke, given how few innings Anderson has been able to throw.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
oh of course, i'm just sorta dumping stuff as i find it or it occurs to me to post
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
AN is not The Goodwill or a landfill!!!!!!
OK, it kinda is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes, but as has been pointed out time and again, weak contact and low BABIP have nothing to do with one another
and he’s already getting credit for pitcher fielding in the metrics, so double-counting it is a no go.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
How is pitcher fielding credited in FIP, xFIP, tRA or SIERA?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:17 AM PST up reply actions
No, I meant DRS and that sort of thing
I agree you need to adjust SIERA for your estimate of pitcher defense. It’s just not okay to adjust it based on DRS and then also claim “he’s better than he looks because his batted ball profile lets him field a lot of balls.” That’s double-counting. If the quoted sentence is true, it will show up in DRS, because he will have more opportunities to generate positive numbers in that statistic.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Ah, OK.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:04 AM PST up reply actions
The difference is that there's evidence that knuckleballers and extreme flyballers
can sustain a lower than average BABIP. No such evidence exists for groundballers.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:16 AM PST up reply actions
Because most groundballers can't
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Kind of off topic but related
It’s the same with hitters who “kind of aim” at certain areas, i.e. going the other way.
I think some fans actually think a player (say Rod Carew) can/did actually just hit it where they want when they’re really just kind of adjusting their bat angle and timing to get it in that general area.
Hitting is SO MUCH harder than it looks. I always tell the casual fans i hear venting frustration over a hitter to go down to the batting cages and try to hit even just a 50 mph ball coming out of a machine with no off speed or breaking pitches.
So much tougher than it looks. And they’ve got pitchers knowing the book on them, throwing in and out, fast and slow, up and down. The time you’ve got to recognize the pitch, “decide” and get your swing right is incredibly small (i think more often than we’d think it comes down to guessing right…and even then you still have the matter of hitting it, and it not going right at someone.)
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think you may find an article that BP wrote today rather interesting
Spitballing: Always in Motion is the Future? by Jeremy Greenhouse.
It has some great graphs showing the different locations that hitters tend to hit depending on pitch location. It ends with a really cool graph showing what fielder is most likely to field a batted ball by Ichiro by location.
"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle
Thanks, good read
And i think i saw a sail boat in that ichiro graphic.
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
It's a schooner!
"As the tag line of my favorite dirty joke would have it: 'Keep your hat on. We could wind up miles from here.'" ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus
How about "he tries to" and has random bouts of success doing so?
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
A pitcher doesn't know how to "try to" get a certain kind of ground ball,
other than “throw the way I throw” or “hit my spots.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes, tries to hit his spots
He sometimes does, he sometimes doesn’t. Independent of this, hitters have variable levels of contact naturally, and thus the variability in groundball type.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 6:59 PM PST up reply actions
Correct. Now add the third component: "Insane movement on the sinker"
That’s where you might see separation between pitchers, in general, hitters in general, and outliers like Trevor Cahill.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I sure hope you're right
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 7:20 PM PST up reply actions
I think this is one of the best pieces you've ever written
Some reactions:
Fielding / Weak contact: I don’t think there is any debate that his ability to play defense should factor into his value. As you acknowledge, we don’t have much of a sample because pitchers play infrequently and two seasons isn’t great even for position players. Any analysis that ignores his defense is wrong. That said, I think if you are trying to tell me how good a pitcher he is (as opposed to how good a player) you don’t get to add his defense. For the same reason that Kz is a better player than he is a hitter.
The rest of your weak contact part I don’t necessarily buy. Does anyone know whether aggregations of the raw fielding data is available? I know the scouting services categorize each GB as hard/medium/soft, so it would be interesting to see how his profile compares to other pitchers. (and, yes, of course, that categorization isn’t always accurate at the margins).
Slugging against: Yes. Because he has demonstrated an unusual ability to induce grounders, the DIPS-y stats that do not consider batted ball profiles are likely to be less accurate than the ones that do. The ones that do will incorporate this point. On the strand rate question, you might want to look up DP-against to add to this analysis. I have no idea whether he induces significantly more than average (but I would expect he does).
Adaptability: As you’d expect I see confirmation bias here. If he was posting the same DIPS-y numbers but his ERA was much higher, these same facts would be cast in a negative light (he “lacks confidence in his stuff,” “overthinks,” etc.). It’s kind of like how teams on a winning streak are always “doing everything they can to win” and “engaged in the game” while teams on a losing streak just look like they aren’t even trying up there.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Feb 17, 2011 8:47 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Kouz is a better player than he is a hitter
But this is a bad comparison: one separates offensive stats from defensive ones because they are actually separate parts of the game. The player is attempting to add runs in one half of an inning and prevent them in another, and, presumably their success or failure in one category doesn’t effect their success or failure in another. Pitching and fielding the pitchers spot are wholistic activities. In other words they may be defined differently statisticly, but cahill is only doing one thing, which is being the pitcher.
by ilikeike on Feb 17, 2011 9:15 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
But what you are saying is that all defense is run prevention and therefore should b credited to the pitcher
that is incorrect.
What we are tying to figure out, is how good is cahill at throwing a baseball. To do so, we have to eliminate all fielders, including him.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
No, I don't think that's what we're trying to figure out
We’re trying to figure out how much of a contribution Trevor Cahill makes to the team’s run prevention when he’s the starting pitcher. His ability to field his position plays into that. I mean, in an abstract sense we could try to separate out the contribution made by his pitch-throwing and his fielding, but since it’s impossible to make Cahill the pitch-thrower but not fielder, or vice versa, it’s a kind of academic exercise.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Ok, I guess that makes sense
Kinda like making baserunning adjustments for your WAR score.
Something about it makes me think it doesn’t change the analysis much.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Maybe it's just semantics
And either way his value as a player is what the A’s should really care about.
Seems odd to me to say that immobile-pitcher-x is a worse pitcher because he can’t field, instead of that he is a less valuable player.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The immobile pitcher is in fact a worse pitcher to put on the mound
than his evil twin who is identical only he can field — precisely because the pitcher takes his own defense out there for every pitch.
In other words, he can’t throw the pitch and then quickly have Dallas Braden run out to the mound in case the ball is chopped up the middle. Cahill can only play defense when he throws a pitch and can only throw a pitch when he is the one playing defense. Whereas Kouz could DH…Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Kouz DHing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That would be awesome
It’d be like coach pitch peanut league where you get to be the pitchers helper!
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
"Ghost fielder!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Like I said, it's all semantics.
And you’re right that you’d take the evil twin every time because he is a better player.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
what about a catcher
who manages the pitchers extremely well but absolutely cannot throw out a runner to save his life. We all agree his identical twin who can put a runner out is a better player, but wouldn’t you also agree he is a better catcher, even though throwing someone out is not, strictly speaking, catching?
How about two equally talented pitchers, one of whom hits better
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
That would make him a better player, but not a better pitcher
Because these are two discreet jobs with two discreet purposes. The fact that the AL uses a DH is sort of the enactment of this.
I guess it might help him stay in a little longer in a game in which he’d otherwise be pulled for a pinch hitter, so he could maybe end up with more strikeouts or something, but otherwise his ability to score runs doesn’t impact his ability prevent them.
It seems to me like the difference is obvious:
If two things can only happen concurrently — basically with a correlation of 1.0 that when one happens the other is also happening — such as “pitching the ball” and “fielding your position as a pitcher” — then they are part of the same category (e.g., “pitching”), whereas if two things can happen non concurrently — such as batting and fielding, or pitching and bunting — they are part of different categories even though they may both impact how useful or valuable that player is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
As I've now said several times: Whatever
It’s just semantics.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Oh my god
I cant believe what i just read. Seems like everyone is arguing and agreeing at the same time. What I take from this is that we all need baseball season to hurry up and get here, that way we can just watch it happen. Here’s to Trevor Cahill, and I don’t really care how he repeats last years numbers. Whether it be more luck and defense or more his pitches and fielding prowess, just so long as he has another good year.
by Toast4 on Feb 17, 2011 10:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but
Whether it be more luck and defense or more his pitches and fielding prowess, just so long as he has anothergood yearslightly above average.
There; fixed!
Just kidding. +1.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 18, 2011 3:22 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know why this is a response to my comment here
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Just putting it at the end
Not trying to single anyone out. I just thought that the conversation was turning circles.
Is that what we're trying to figure out?
I thought we were trying to figure out whether if you replaced TC with pitcher X you would expect better or worse run prevention, all other things (park, defense) being equal. In that case, his fielding ability is part of the package you have to account for.
by Glorious Mundy on Feb 17, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks, by the way, for the kind words in the subject line
I don’t take them lightly.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You know what, ur right
I can’t believe what a talentless worthless piece of sh*t Cahill is. We’re just fortunate that our ballpark sucks for hitters and he had sooo much luck. That would be the only reason he was as dominate as he was last year. Because luck is a measurable stat
AN, are you guys bored outta your minds? If you guys hate the A’s so much, why are you on here? The guy was great for us; give him his due. HE’S ONLY 22! HE’S STILL LEARNING THE GAME AND IT’S ONLY UP FROM HERE!
I'm Captain Anti-Metric Around Here........
But did you even read the piece?
by AsFan72 on Feb 17, 2011 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
Seriously Nico’s arguing from a pro Cahill being a great pitcher side.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, I did read the article
And I don’t read it as a pro-Cahill article. The way I read it, it’s another ‘Cahill is over-rated and we can’t him credit for his talents’ article. For 2 years, the jerks on here won’t let up on Cahill. All I read is “He’s over-rated” or “He’s lucky” or some other b/s excuse. To me, I see Cahill as a Tom Glavine type of pitcher and if he lives up to that standard, we’re gonna have a great 10-12 year run with him (unless Beane trades him for prospects)
Okay Screamer, you're new
But you’ve now referred to people who disagree with you about Cahill as “jerks”, and your first comment was sarcastic, inaccurate, and completely unfair.
Please stop posting these kinds of comments, or I’ll start flagging them and you’ll be on your way to being 86’ed from AN.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Nah, you clearly did not read the article.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
I'd love him to be Glavine.
But listen, and this is from a prospective of someone the “The Jerk on here” don’t really like.
He had a BABIP of .236. I mean that is microscopic, and extremely abnormal. It will not happen again. But what can we expect from Cahill when his BABIP looks more normal or even unfair to him.
And from a not stats prospective, if you’ve been to the Coliseum for a 7 PM game you know it’s not a hitters park.
Now, I expect him to still be a good pitcher. Hell, maybe he’s even a great pitcher. The 1997 Glavine had a BABIP of .248 and had an ERA of 2.96. The 1999 Glavine had a BABIP .309 and had an ERA of 4.12
All we are trying to argue here is that Cahill is probably the 1997 Glavine and what he will look like if he’s has a high BABIP.
So what kind of pitcher will he look like with a .307 BABIP?
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
The comparison isn't apt.
Cahill is an entirely dissimilar pitcher from Glavine. Glavine is a left handed fly ball pitcher and pitchers of those ilk seem to have an ability to limit BABIP (see Zito and Lilly). Cahill is a right handed groundball pitcher in the vein of Lowe, Webb, and Hudson, who all have career BABIPs around .300.
If Cahill had a .300 BABIP last year, he would’ve probably put up an ERA around 4.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Oh of course they are totally different pitchers
Handedness, height, weight, even style…I’m just trying to give the argument to someone who’s not stats oriented.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, in this case, the point is that the difference between fly ball pitchers and groundball pitchers is substantial,
and directly affects control of BABIP. Stuff like height and weight is relatively inconsequential.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
Their faces are different as well.
One is 45 and the other is 22. I think the comparison was for simplification of the argument because he said he hope’s he will be a “Tom Glavine type pitcher”
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
First of all
So what if people are skeptical? What is it to you and why go off? I too think some are a bit too skeptical, but i just say “i think he’ll not be as good, but still good enough,” along with maybe a shake of the head towards some who didn’t even want him in the majors (yet he did what he did.)
Secondly, you’re wrong. Nico is rationally pointing out (and i agree) that Cahill “will likely settle” around “not quite as good as last year but still pretty damn good.”
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Also, wow, an A’s fan who’s not clear on the financial realities of small payroll teams, and how to field a good team they almost HAVE TO trade away valuable assets as they reach their big buck seasons (after six mega FA hits.)
Nothing bothers me more than actual A’s fans who don’t understand this. i mean, how?!
So they then blast the team and Beane for actually making shrewd moves that the A’s are FORCED BY THE SYSTEM to make. (I’ll bet Screamer, good name, here hated the Haren trade too, yet now loves Bret Anderson and pines for when Chris Carter will come up.)
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Screamer quite literally misreads what I wrote
at the impressive angle of 180 degrees. He basically attributes to my words the exact opposite of what it actually says.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
do you have a hat, captain?
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
do you take the unitard to a reputable dry cleaners often,
or do you have multiple duplicates of the outfit?
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
I find....
The a nice long soak in a sink filled with warm water and a cap full of Downey is all my delicates need.
I do however have a sandwich board and beer helmet on stand by just in case a WAR Invasion occurs while my delicates are soaking.
by AsFan72 on Feb 17, 2011 5:39 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
That's why you're my hero.
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 11:32 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously
If he didn’t he’d realize it’s the wrong spot for that comment.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
...
…
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
by mikev on Feb 17, 2011 8:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah the stat-heads are all snobs and jerks.
I want AN to be populated by more comments like this instead.
"As the tag line of my favorite dirty joke would have it: 'Keep your hat on. We could wind up miles from here.'" ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus
by Elvez on Feb 17, 2011 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
why are you screaming?
BK: This guy is on fire, he is really smokin'.
KenKo: Oh yeah, Bill? What's he smokin'?
I was disappointed int he lack of exclamation points ending in 1's
To me that always is the best online scream. Those that cause you lose cotnact with the shift button. For example:
JACK CUST STRUCK OUT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111
HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY HAVE BOB GEREN AS OUR MANAGER!?!?!!?!?!?!????////////
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
One has to be running at a slow clock speed to lose contact that long and not notice
and I mean brain speed, not computer speed.
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
The appropritate word is STRICKS
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
sorry for harping on, but you petted my pet peeve the wrong way...
The word you were looking for is “dominant”
“dominate” is a verb.
I used to be a dominatrix, so take it from me. I know.
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
dominate me, dominant one!
Waffle House is good for two things: 1 – coffee; 2 – finding cheap whores -- Jennifer
by Leopold Bloom on Feb 18, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
when you read the post...
…you’ll realize it’s a well-reasoned argument for why Cahill is quite good, despite what the advanced metrics say.
Read it again
And I still don’t read it that way. I’m reading that Cahill is only good because of the defense; because of the park; because he’s lucky. And all that just puts him in the top 75% of pitchers and that’s the best he’ll ever be and don’t expect anything more out of him
What a bunch of bull
Reading comprehension fail
Nico puts him in the top 25%
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Considering the way he's gone on about this
I don’t think “fail” is a phrase nearly strong enough to register the true level of reading comprehension ineptitude.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Feb 17, 2011 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
Those are absolute truths, though.
He most certainly was helped by the park, defense, and a certain amount of luck. The debate is over how much. If you think that’s false…you’re just wrong.
This is why Cahill supporters can't have nice things.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Feb 17, 2011 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
[Insert repetitive "this is what stat-friendly posters mean about classless comments" comment here]
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Feb 17, 2011 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
The guy was slightly above average for us. There...I gave him his due.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:18 AM PST up reply actions
Defense Was Certaintly Key
Cahill, a groundball pitcher, was able to play in front of a fantastic defensive infield. That would definitely contribute to his strong stats; perhaps if he had been a flyball pitcher, Cahill wouldn’t have been so successful.
Looking at his stats, it would seem that the fact that he plays home games in the spacious Coliseum also helped. He started 15 games in Oakland, and 15 away from home. But on his road starts he threw 10 fewer innings, allowed just as many hits, and gave up 7 more homeruns, all adding up to a 3.86 ERA and a 7-5 record away from home, but a 2.18 ERA and a 11-3 record while pitching in the Coliseum.
Great post, Nico, and DFA’s was really interesting as well.
“Cahill, a groundball pitcher, was able to play in front of a fantastic defensive infield.”
The quote above is the key for me. It’s not luck if you put a groundball pitcher in front of an excellent defensive infield. The A’s will have the same infield and same grounball-inducing Cahill in 2011. For that reason alone you’d expect Cahill’s actual ERA to be better than his SIERA, FIP, etc.
Of course you would
But a better groundball pitcher would do even better, so I’m not sure what the point is.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Nobody's calling that luck.
That seems reasonable, to say that a groundball pitcher playing in front of a fantastic infield, is not luck. The luck is because his BABIP was so ridiculously low, that you wouldn’t expect that BABIP if he played in front of four Ozzie Smiths.
I don’t expect Cahill to post another BABIP of .236, but I do expect his BABIP to be below league average and for him to outperform his FIP.
Assuming he’s not going to be traded any time soon, I don’t care much what Cahill looks like in front of some generic defense or what his “real” value is. I care how he pitches for the A’s in 2011, and a big part of that equation is he is an extreme groundball pitcher pitching in front of an ideally suited defense.
I think it should also be pointed out that Barton, Ellis, Pennington and Kouz all have superficially high defensive #’s because they get to play behind a groundball-inducing machine every five games.
It’s not just Cahill’s #‘s that benefit from his infielders, his infielders #’s benefit from Cahill.
This is a really good point,
and it’s also part of the reason UZR/150 was created. Not only does UZR/150 adjust each fielder to 150 defensive games, but it also normalizes the amount and difficulty of the defensive chances he got.
Ahh that's why some of the UZR/150 numbers look weird
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Yes
Not to mention having good pitchers who pitch fast keeps fielders, generally speaking, on their toes more, more apt to stay sharp vs long games and innings which make guys’ minds wander.
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:11 PM PST up reply actions
There's essentially no evidence of any such effect
See here. I’m aware that he, like a good analyst, holds open the possibility of detecting a small effect in the future, but I don’t see anything in his data that supports it once you account for correlation-causation problems (like the fact that worse pitchers on a given day might pitch more slowly because they are struggling) and sample-size issues at the extremes.
Frankly, too, I would wonder at the inability of defenders to maintain focus for thirty seconds in a high-stakes professional environment. I mean, really? You can’t stay in the game that long without thinking about your pet hamster? Fortunately, there’s no evidence that it ever happens.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
tl;dtiam
Waiting for mikev to write my new sigline
by OptimistPrime on Feb 17, 2011 9:36 AM PST via mobile reply actions
(too long; didn't turn into a movie)
Nico, this is an awesome post!
Waiting for mikev to write my new sigline
by OptimistPrime on Feb 17, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Excellent Post, Nico
I agree with the factors you eloquently pointed out. Beane’s “baby faced assassin” points to his mental makeup which drives statisticians crazy but Cahill’s adaptability to stay ahead of the hitter’s ability to adjust to him shows how driven he is as a competitor.
Could you have a “perfect” pitcher for a ballpark and team concept? I think Cahill comes pretty close, although you might have an argument from Braden.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
I like the part where Cahill pitches well for us regardless of how he does it.
by Rebuilding Season on Feb 17, 2011 10:13 AM PST reply actions
This we all can agree with
Whether it’s his intangibles not accounted for in advanced metrics or it’s the fact that he will continue to be the luckiest pitcher in baseball…We’ll take both!
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
i believe cahill was a high school ss
who converted to pitching full time as a junior or senior, so it makes sense that hes an excellent fielder.
You are right
Cahill was a shortstop/pitcher before gaining velocity unexpectedly his senior year in HS. He definitely has faster reactions than most pitchers and a big reach helps too.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
With Cahill's body type
I’m not surprised he gained velocity. I mean, if he was a ss with that body, well, i’d like to hear what year he “shot up and filled out” ‘cause that ain’t no SS.
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:13 PM PST up reply actions
Half the players in MLB were high school shortstops and pitchers
Perhaps I exaggerate, but only slightly. The level of base athleticism involved in being an MLB prospect means you’re likely better than 95% of high school players at both pitching and hitting.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
So someone like Cramer is a quintessential Outlier?
He described his HS varsity career as mediocre (having a hard time even reaching the Varsity level).
Very much so
but, then, it’s not like this is the first time that the words “Bobby Cramer” and “outlier” have been found in close proximity to one another.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
did he say he had a growth spurt?
that could explain some of it.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
It's a "too-ma"
Non-stat guy: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Non-stat guy: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I don't have time to fully digest this right now, but one quick thought about point #3:
The low-slugging part about his batted ball profile should be more properly accounted for in SIERA than any other of the advanced pitching stats.
And…he has a SIERA of 4.16. No help there. It’s actually worse than his xFIP or tERA.
This we all can agree with
Whether it’s his intangibles not accounted for in advanced metrics or it’s the fact that he will continue to be the luckiest pitcher in baseball…I’ll take both!
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 10:30 AM PST reply actions
really? it's a fact?
it’s the fact that he will continue to be the luckiest pitcher in baseball
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
by stm72 on Feb 17, 2011 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is a double post...
It will make more sense if you see it as the reply above.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Whether....
It’s the fact that my connection is poor, or it’s the fact that I’m careless and dumb, it’s a repeat post. Either way, or more like both, my bad.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Your post up there makes the same false assumption
If he will continue to post the numbers he posted last year, no one really cares about why. The fact that stats point to him being lucky suggests that he will not.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Maybe this was poor wording choice but what I was saying
If he continues to have a good ERA because of luck or because he has skills not accounted for in advanced statistics no one cares as longs and he doesn’t allow runs to score. I don’t really see the false assumption?
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
anything that repeats is in an advanced stat. everything unexplained after that is good luck or bad luck.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I don't know that that's true.
I would say everything unexplained is either good luck, bad luck, or something we simply haven’t yet figured out how to quantify.
the oakland athletics: hittin' ain't easy
by walk off bunt on Feb 17, 2011 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
if something repeats, it's measurable. if its random, it's not.
the goal of advanced stats is to isolate luck and remove it. the advanced stats aren’t perfect, but they’re actually pretty good.
perhaps i should have said it differently, but i stand by the premise
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
You can never remove luck....
Hints this entire argument is based on the fact that stat people say “He was really lucky.” Hints his BABIP. Are you arguing that he wasn’t lucky with his BABIP?
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
what?
cahill’s era was better than it should’ve been than his luck independent stats like FIP, xFIP, tRA, SIERA.
the advanced stats are closest to what is repeatable. the difference is luck or things that may not recur.
that’s all i mean
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I think you're implying an if that I don't see in your post
If you mean to say IF HE CONTINUES TO POST TINY ERAS it doesn’t matter whether it’s luck or intangibles that’s one thing.
The false assumption is that he continues to post tiny ERAs
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Weird wording aside...
Of course. If he continues to be lucky or magical or whatever, I’ll take it gladly.
i think he's a swell guy
BK: This guy is on fire, he is really smokin'.
KenKo: Oh yeah, Bill? What's he smokin'?
Swelled maybe
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
He's a chameleon!
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:20 AM PST up reply actions
Unlike the rest of the A's players, who merely come and go
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Cahill
He’s one of those guys that provoke you to start thinking about karma and dharma in baseball, and that’s always the most mind-boggling aspect of baseball analysis. Separating skill from luck is so much easier in other sports, but in baseball it is almost impossible to form a conclusive opinion after just two years of data.
My best guess right now is that Cahill is probably one of those pitchers that can beat the peripherals in long term to a certain degree. I don’t think his ERA will be over one run lower than his FIP/xFIP/tRA every year like it was in 2010, although that would be an amazing thing for few different reasons. My prediction for him this year – 3.40 ERA, 3.85 FIP.
I do think he has more chance of improving his Ks and BBs than the average third-year pitcher. Let’s not forget that Cahill was rushed to the majors and that his performance curve can’t really be compared to guys who were allowed to master the minors fully and reach the bigs as a finished product.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
It is possible that he's slightly behind on the pitcher knowledge curve,
due to his relatively late start as a pitcher.
I’m glad the A’s have Romanick. He’s a smart pitching coach who understands mechanics.
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
So Cahill is not merely a chameleon, he is actually a karma chameleon?
You can’t make this stuff up.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Feb 18, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
"Boy" Trevor
Non-stat guy: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Non-stat guy: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
He already wears gold and green....now about the red.....
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:06 AM PST up reply actions
Geren is still trying to figure out if Barton will hit second or further down the order. #Athletics
Really…. /Sigh
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
And by that he really means
trying to find good articles about batting order on Google
"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10
hell hath no fury like a Cowboys fan scorned. -Leopold Bloom
by MissOakland on Feb 19, 2011 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
Great read
I am a true believer in Cahill’s ability, and I really believe that he will be the most consistent pitcher in our rotation for the next couple of years. He doesn’t blow anyone away, so that makes him a bit less injury prone than Anderson or Gio. I also find Cahill really interesting. I would like to know more about his personality, but he seems to be into classic rock because I have seen him donning a motorhead and a AC/DC shirt after games. His warmup song is hands down the best and most unique song out of any starting pitcher.
by Rygoslinglover on Feb 17, 2011 11:57 AM PST reply actions
Not blowing hitters away has very little to do with being healthy
Plenty of finesse guys, or non-K guys, get hurt, because pitching is generally so terrible for a pitcher’s arm. Duke was constantly hurt, as is Braden. On the other hand, Gio has had an excellent track record of staying healthy.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I once read an interview with a sports doctor
who said the closest thing to pitching, physiologically, was trying to throw your arm off of your body. That’s crazy.
didn't early hunters throw spears overhand?
I don’t think its as “abnormal” as its made out to be.
Sure doing it repeatedly for 2 and a half hours is nuts, but the motion itself is not extraordinary for the human body.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
It is terrible for the human body
Check out Cy Young winner Mike Marshall’s analysis of “Injurious Flaws in the Traditional Pitching Motion”.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Feb 17, 2011 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
because he delivers everything like the Captain of the debate team
"If you choose to question my fandom based on games I attend, you can f*** right off." - mikev
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 17, 2011 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
Hm
Has anyone ever seen him and DFA in the same place at the same time?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Yes I am also former Cy Young award winner.
Cant believe I forgot to mention that all these years.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 18, 2011 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
I bet those hunters would have needed TJS if they threw 200 times every 5th day
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
The strike zone was mammoth in those days
by ilikeike on Feb 17, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
ISWYDT
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
The Amazons
Threw their spears underhand. Fast and effective though.
My ancestors went side armed (which is why i have a poor OF noodle but solid IF arm.)
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but the Amazons played on a smaller field.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I know that Gio has had a good track record
and Duke and Braden suffered a lot of injuries but it was rearely because of their arm or elbow. Dallas had/has foot problems and Duke had a lot of hip problems. Of course, finesse pitchers do get hurt, but they are less likely to suffer long term injuries. That’s all I’m trying to say.
by Rygoslinglover on Feb 17, 2011 12:31 PM PST reply actions
No, both Duke and Braden have had arm problems
Duke has had a bad shoulder, and Braden was shut down for elbow surgery in the minors (and his bad elbow still causes him problems from time to time — there were starts last season when he couldn’t throw breaking pitches because his arm hurt too much).
And, in any case, I’ve never seen any evidence that soft-tossers in general suffer fewer arm injuries or fewer long-term injuries than hard throwers. If you have any evidence for your position, I’d like to see it.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
My guess is that "type of pitch" is what matters a lot
Braden threw a screwball, had elbow problems, now throws mostly fastball/changeup and mostly doesn’t have elbow problems. The hard slider, a sharp curve — also really hard on the arm. Maybe the best reason for optimism on Cahill is that a “sinker, changeup, curve” arsenal is a recipe for relatively good health.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Knuckleball
Niekro and Wilhelm…but then there was Candiotti.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
A few thoughts
mostly repeating from the previous Cahill post:
1- to think that a 22 year old isn’t going to get better is silly. Anybody who ever spent any time looking at the back of baseball cards knows this. The analysis that suggests otherwise is mixing in the 25% of pitchers that blew out their arms with the 75% that peaked at age 27 or whatever.
2- “advanced” stats FIP and tERA don’t so a good job of measuring pitchers like Cahill. There’s no reason to expect that they would and plenty of evidence that they don’t. SIERA seems promising if you’re into this type of thing.
3- all you have to do is watch Cahill pitch to see why he’s likely to be good fielder. Think of a one-hopper straight through the box- Cahill barely has to move his glove to field it, whereas a lot pitchers have to try catch it behind their back.
An extreme sinkerball pitcher with a 2:1 K/BB ratio is a rare and valuable commodity. You guys should stop fretting about whether he can sustain a 2.80 ERA and get excited about all the quality innings you’re going to get over the next few years.
by peter745 on Feb 17, 2011 12:53 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Re2.
I’m not quite sure you’re understanding FIP, tERA, and SIERA. They’re all very similar metrics. If there’s “plenty of evidence” that FIP and tERA have issues evaluating Cahill, then SIERA probably does as well. Incidentally, Cahill’s SIERA of 4.15 is very much in line with his FIP and tERA.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't Siera
Account for the type of contact? So his point would be valid. But yes, you’re right his SIERA was right in line.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 17, 2011 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
So does tRA.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
If by "type of contact" you mean GB/FB/PU, well, fine.
But SIERA and tRA say literally nothing about the type of GB. Grounders can vary in power from dirt-scorching concussion grenades to a 90 year old woman spitting just in front of home plate.
I think there’s a real chance that if anyone in the public arena got their hands on hit f/x data, pitcher evaluation would be revolutionized (and the Three True Outcomes philosophy would fade away into obscurity).
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, if your point is that we'll know more about pitching once HitFX comes out that's not really anything anyone would disagree with.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
My point that to use tRA or SIERA to confidently justify Cahill's averageness when you know the method is at least partly faulty isn't totally fair.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
let's talk about it this way.
he’s either the most unique pitcher in a long, long time (unlikely) or he will regress to something that looks more like pitchers similar to him (more likely).
i will take no pleasure from his regression, but i will not hold out false hope that he’s some miracle pitcher.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Where did I do that?
My only comment about tRA in this thread is that it considers type of contact.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
allow me to retort
by “silly”. I mean counter-factual. to suggest that pitchers don’t get better is incorrect, and the analysis that suggests this is seriously and obviously flawed. Is that better?
FIP and SIERA are similar only in that they are trying to get at the same thing. One is a serious regression analysis and the other is just playing with numbers. If you understood statistics and had taken the time to understand how the metrics were develioped, you would know this.
My best guess is Cahill=Derek Lowe. A little better, if I had to guess. My guess is a lot of the posters here are too young to a) really understand math, and b) have watched enough baseball to develop any sort of intuition about what they’re looking at. I’m really, really sorry, but that’s the only I can thing I can think of that would explain why anybody would think Trevor Cahill isn’t a really promising young pitcher.
"My guess is a lot of the posters here are too young to a) really understand math"
I’m going to guess that’s a big no.
Not only is this post extremely condescending,
but it is also extremely wrong. In fact, anytime a commenter uses this many wrong statements to lecture other people that they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about….well, that should set off anyone’s “bullshit” sensor.
FIP and SIERA both use countless amounts of historical data to establish run values for certain outcomes of baseball events. To chalk that up as “playing with numbers” without backing it up with any evidence is quite insulting.
Actually, you don’t have to take my word for it. I’m just some random dude on the internet. You have an issue with tRA? You can take it up with Matthew and Graham who are both only a few clicks away at Lookout Landing. Issue with SIERA? Send Matt Swartz an email. All of those guys have a very stats heavy background and certainly “understand math”. Please go explain to them how flawed their metrics are and why they’re just playing with numbers.
b) have watched enough baseball to develop any sort of intuition about what they’re looking at.
And there it is! Enjoy your flag and your permanent induction into the Dylan Robinson/oakwin Hall of Stoopid-Things-People-Say-That-Make-This-Site-Less-Enjoyable-For-Everyone.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
do not mean to condescend
don’t know tRa enough to say. Siera looks good to me at first blush. FIP is a mess, IMO. The big problems are:
1- that BABIP cannot be controlled by the pitcher and doesn’t vary much across pitchers is more or less true. To assume that the run value of BABIP does not vary (as FIP does) is not true.
2- the variables (BB,K,HR) are treated as independent of one another, when they are not.
3- the relationship between the variables and runs allowed is assumed to linear, when it is undoubtedly not.
Don’t mean to be a jerk. Sorry. I’ve tried to engage the FIP guy, but he didn’t have time or wasn’t interested. Siera seems commendable. I honestly don’t understand how FIP has been the standard for however long when it really doesn’t pass the laugh test, much less measure someone’s “true” ERA.
As regards Trevor, I’m honestly baffled as to how anyone could be anything but excited about him. Maybe you can explain this to me. Granted, his ERA probably will not be 2.80 next year, but this is a guy who’s going to make 9 figures playing baseball unless I’ve totally missed my guess.
i love the gordon gekko meets hallmark comment in your final paragraph...but...
the issue being discussed (in general) is whether cahill is our best pitcher or how good is he really (specifically). nobody disagrees that he’s a very good pitcher. but how great is he exactly? by my count, i think there are two pitchers on the a’s better than him. brett anderson and gio gonzalez. some might debate gio and others might fight for dallas braden.
but that’s what AN is about to me.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I think there's a lot of disagreement as to whether he's a "very good pitcher."
His xFIP, tERA, and SIERA suggest he isn’t, hence the debates.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"I honestly don’t understand how FIP has been the standard for however long when it really doesn’t pass the laugh test, much less measure someone’s "true" ERA."
Because it does. If it didn’t pass certain tests, it wouldn’t have become what’s essentially the universal standard advanced pitching stat. Believe me, Tom Tango and crew haven’t been running blind this whole time.
And, of course, it correlates better year-to-year than ERA
Suggesting that it’s doing a better job of measuring skill.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The reason why FIP has been used for so long
is that it still correlates extremely well with ERA in subsequent seasons — much better than ERA, slightly worse than tRA, worse than more predictive based stats like xFIP. If those issues you listed were really that big of an issue, it would not nearly be as well correlated as it is now, and would’ve been discarded a long time ago.
And if FIP really did miss that badly on a significant subset of pitchers (groundballers), that would also affect its effectiveness. Since it’s still pretty effective overall, we can assume that, for whatever reason, it’s generally useful for groundballers, along with other pitcher archetypes, or else the results wouldn’t be in line at all with year to year ERA. I’ve been using Hudson, Lowe, and Webb as examples throughout this thread so why not one more time…their career FIPs are all relatively in line with their career ERAs. Hudson shows the biggest discrepancy at 40 points but that’s due a low BABIP and perhaps park factors (pitching in Oakland for 6 years).
I wouldn’t say that there’s anyone on this board who isn’t “excited” about Trevor. The fact that he was a slightly above average pitcher, by advanced metrics, at the age of 21 for chrissakes is something to be excited about. What we ask is that people don’t take it as some sort of personal affront to the suggestion that he’s “merely” above average instead of hastening to christen him as one the most awesome pitchers in the league.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
thanks for the thoughtful responses
My sense is I’m a latecomer to a running argument where folks have gotten touchy about the idea that Trevor is not HOF-bound. My thought is Anderson and Cahill have the look of classic #1 and #2 starters, respectively. I don;t think I’m reading anything too terribly different from that..
Other points:
- “If it didn’t pass certain tests, it wouldn’t have become what’s essentially the universal standard advanced pitching stat.” This is exactly my point. I frisked it, and I think it’s junk. For the reasons I listed and others. It beats ERA as a predictor because its flaws are dwarfed by the BABIP randomness that affects ERA. That doesn’t mean it’s good. It isn’t, IMO. I really don’t know why it’s the standard, but I guarantee it’s not because it’s been peer reviewed and judged to be methodologically sound.
- A 40 point ERA v FIP difference (Hudson) is huge. It doesn’t prove anything- maybe he’s had super-grest fielders. FIP=ERA for Webb, Lowe doesn’t prove anyhting either- there could be a huge gap that’s closed by fielding, ballpark, etc.
- history’s littered with groundball pitchers with crappy K/BB ratios that had long and productive careers. I confess I have not done a study on this, but I suspect even SIERA is missing something with these guys. Take a quick look at the B-Ref page for Dan Quisenberry and a few other similar pitchers and see of you do not agree.
- does someone really think Gio Ganzalez is better than Trevor Cahill? Boy, I wish there some way to bet on stuff like this.
- what’s “gordon Gekko meets hallmark” mean? was this directed at me?
best to all.
Plenty of smart baseball people think Gio Gonzalez is better than Trevor Cahill
That’s perfectly reasonable, when you look at their hugely disparate K-rates and the fact that Gio is also coming off of a season in which he performed really well and showed plenty of signs that he might be something special.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
the walks don't worry you?
well, you guys have undoubtedly watched him pitch more than I have. I was trying to find guys who succeeded long-term while walking 4+ guys per 9. It’s not a long list, I don’t think…
Same, though, with guys who strikeout fewer than 6 per 9 IP
And Cahill’s walks aren’t that low. So there’s good cases both ways; it’s definitely not obvious who is poised to be better long-term.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
do guys strike out more often than they used to?
I ran these numbers for the best pitchers from when I was a kid:
Carlton 7.134
Seaver 6.849
Blyleven 6.702
Jenkins 6.383
Tiant 6.237
Sutton 6.090
Perry 5.945
Niekro 5.566
Hunter 5.250
Palmer 5.043
Kaat 4.889
John 4.290
My take: Trevor’s going to make you happy. Not ecstatic, but happy. Gio could go either way. Just my opinion.
I agree with your take --
that Cahill will make you happy and that Gio could go either way. Which is why it’s not at all clear who is or will be better.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Those are also career numbers that include decline seasons when those guys were old
Yes, there were fewer K’s in the past. But Seaver, for instance, averaged 7.7 K/9 over his first 10 seasons, with a peak in his early 20s around 9K/9. If Cahill can move his peak years into that territory, then he’ll be able to afford a decline and still get people out.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
are you sure about Webb?
the siera inventors present him as an example of an extreme pitcher type that FIP under-rates. 2004-2008 Webb ERA 3.01, Siera 3.18, FIP 3.45. In the articles, they get into the reasons (fewer XBH, more DPs, etc). Apparently, GB% exhibits increasing returns. i.e. getting grounders has more value to pitchers who already throw a lot of grounders.
Why would you not count 2003?
Brandon Webb (career): 3.27 ERA 3.50 FIP 3.31 xFIP. Seems pretty much in line with everything to me.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
dunno why they did what they did
I recommend their write-up, though. It’s like a 5 part series on Baseball Prospectus.
I don’t think you can eyeball these numbers and conclude much. 3,27 v 3.50 seems like a real difference to me. But it could be totally explained by defense. Or the “real” difference could be much bigger.
FIP has been the standard for however long because it passes the "predicts next year's ERA better than this year's ERA does" test
With flying colors.
And that’s what people care about, basically, not whether it’s a perfect mathematical model of pitching. That it can be improved upon is obvious; however, FIP can be calculated on the back of an envelope.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
At the risk of being boring
I guess I’m saying that better than ERA as a predictor is a very low standard. And that FIP is unscientific- not really a mthematical model of pitching at all other than that it’s numerical. I make the point because I see a lot of conversation about whether and how it’s possible for pitchers to outperform their FIP. The implicit assumption being that FIP is the “true” ERA or something close. My contention is that it’s just a number, and you need a decent model, like SIERA seems to be, before you can evaluate things like whether certain pitchers have a knack for inducing weak grounders or lazy flyballs, how much of the over- or under-performance is due to defense and ballpark v “luck”, etc.
None of this is to say that my man Trevor didn’t run into a fair amount of “luck” in 2010. It seems pretty clear that he did.
A low standard which mainstream baseball has apparently struggled to clear for the last hundred years
And again: back of an envelope. It is important to have a good, easy to calculate statistic that can be applied in situations where complex, computer-generated statistics like SIERA are not available.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
agree somewhat
the problem is that FIP seems to get taken very lterally. So you get long coversations about whether certain guys have magic FIP-beating BIP -controlling powers when what’s really going on is that the model’s wrong.
And maybe this is just me, but 4 simple terms v 6 complicated ones is a matter of 2 minutes on a spreadsheet v 5 minutes. Except that SIERA requires GB%, FB%, PU% data, I guess….
SIERA is not calculable without a computer, nor is it calculable from information on the back of a baseball card
As for the rest, the reason those conversations occur is that the FIP model is not wrong (at least not more than trivially so) very often, and even in the rare instances when it is, it takes a metric ass-ton of data to prove it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
And, of course, it's very rarely much different than SIERA et al.
In that sense, it’s much better than OPS (which can be substantially different from wOBA)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
last thoughts- interesting discussion. thanks.
Not sure how much I’m really disagreeing, but:
-SIERA can be alot different from FIP. Several tenths of a run, depending on the type of pitcher. And the differences are, unsurprisingly, for pitchers with unusual skill sets. Which are often the pitchers you’re interested in evaluating.
- of course it takes metric ass-ton (is this more than a regular ass-ton?) to disprove FIP. It’s hard to prove or disprove someone’s “true” ERA. That’s sort of my point. People are hyper-analyzing Matt Cain’s stats like he’s some freak of nature becuase FIP and xFIP don’t work for him. My take is that there’s no real reason to think that they would.
- SIERA requires GB, FB, PU data, which isn’t all that readily available, but otherwise you’re on a spreadsheet, same as FIP. I mean, you could probably calculate FIP with a pencil and paper, but you wouldn’t really want to…
FIP is trivially easy to calculate with pen and paper
I’ve done it myself a number of times for players who were not major leaguers.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
too much long division for me
give me a calculator and I’m with you.
FIP moved the conversation forward, no doubt. Folks get into trouble taking it too literally, though. I myself wasted some time looking at really good and really unusual pitchers before I was like “hey, wait a minute”.
I would suggest that you retract the flag
It would be a bad idea to stress the system (think “boy who cried wolf”) by flagging posts that are merely poorly reasoned and/or hubristic.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Done.
He apologized for it and showed that he wasn’t intending to troll as I initially thought.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
[Insert repetitive "this is what stat-friendly posters mean about classless comments" comment here]
I mean, seriously? We don’t understand math or watch baseball?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
what i find funny is that brett anderson is every bit the ground ball pitcher that trevor cahill is...
proof: brett anderson gb% – 52%, cahill – 52%
proof: anderson gb/fb – 1.7x, cahill – 1.6x
these are for their albeit brief careers from fangraphs
…and yet, i don’t hear anyone here say that anderson is over-rated or posting unsustainable numbers. i wonder why. we must just all hate cahill or perhaps we should just leave the basement and actually go watch a game.
word
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
"…and yet, i don’t hear anyone here say that anderson is over-rated or posting unsustainable numbers."
I don’t want this to sound rude, but I think you’re misunderstanding what people are arguing about. I’m no stats guy, but what people are saying is that advanced predictive metrics think that Anderson’s ERA is representative of how well he is pitching, whereas Cahill’s is not. This is largely because of the very small number of balls in play that became hits during Cahill’s 2010 season. Conversely, many more of the balls in play during Anderson’s starts became hits. The stats lead people to believe that Anderson will be able to replicate his 2010 (*if healthy), whereas Cahill will not. What Nico is saying (and I agree with him) is that some things like pitcher defense will allow Cahill to outperform those predictive metrics.
No one hates Cahill, I doubt anyone on here lives in a basement, and I’m sure we all watch the games.
Lots of us played baseball in high school as well.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 3:15 AM PST up reply actions
You're missing the point of his satire
Why are there not tons of articles being written on how smart Anderson is? Answer: because he has a normal BABIP, so it’s not necessary to clutch at straws to explain away his otherwise unexplainable luck as somehow performance-based.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Plus, some of us have seen his Twitter stream
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Very well thought out article, Nico.
Couple of thoughts about pitcher defense…
Cahill could very well be one of the best fielding pitchers in the league but I’m not sure that it matters that much. A large part of defensive production is opportunities and a pitcher simply doesn’t accumulate enough opportunities to make much of significant contribution defensively. For example, the average infielder (not playing first base) is involved in roughly 300-400 plays a year. Even good fielders like Kouz, Ellis, and Pennington need that amount of chances in order to produce +5 to +10 defense. Cahill was involved in 70 plays last year. Even if you optimistically assume that 25% of those plays are plays that the average pitcher can’t make, that still doesn’t come out to more than one or two runs saved per year.
What I’m saying is that Cahill’s contributions defensively are inevitably limited by that fact that defensive runs saved is a counting stat. Would Mark Ellis be as valuable if he was only involved in 70 plays a year? I don’t think so. Cahill may well be a true talent +10 or even +15 fielder but unfortunately, that doesn’t mean much when it comes to actual production if you’re getting that few opportunities. To use a clearer example, Albert Pujols may have the ability to drive in 100 runs but if you only give him 100 at bats to do it in, he’s not going to reach 100 RBIs.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
I think you're walking over this too fast.
Cahill’s defensive opportunities are insignificant relative to other positions, but not to Cahill himself.
In 2009 Cahill made 29 assists in 179 innings.
In 2010 Cahill made 54 assists in 197 innings.
That’s an 86% increase in assists in only 10% more innings.
Cahill snagged/was involved with a significantly higher amount of ground ball outs in 2010, presumably many of them weakly hit. Surely this explains part of the 13% decrease in BABIP (from .272 to .232).
The meat of the argument to me is whether, with the addition of his curveball, which he added in 2010, he had hitters off balance enough as to induce a crapton more weakly hit ground balls and, if so, it’s certainly a reproduceable skill. Maybe not at a .232 BABIP clip – but I for one wouldn’t be surprised at all if Cahill clocks in at an 80 on Nico’s scale of Pitcher Awesomeness in 2011.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Among pitchers who make 30 or more starts,
50 assists hardly seems like a number out of the ordinary. Sinkerballers like Lowe, Hudson, and Webb all seem to have partaken in 30-50 assists yearly and still have had career BABIPs around .300.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
Actually Hudson's is .280 and Webb's is .286. They're just as "around .260" as they are .300.
If you want to be a bit more rigorous about this, you should look at how many assists per 9 innings they’ve actually gotten over their careers.
Hudson has averaged 1.5. Lowe’s averaged 1.55. Webb’s averaged 1.82.
Cahill has averaged a flat 2 assists per 9 over his fledgling career, and is coming off a 2.5 season. Considering he added a curveball at the age of 22 and SIERA and tRA are piss poor at evaluating ground ball pitchers – I’d be inclined to say Nico’s pterodactyl theory hold more water than maybe you’re giving credit for.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
"SIERA and tRA are piss poor at evaluating ground ball pitchers"
This opinion is unsupported.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
you're right. i overstated it.
SIERA and tRA can’t tell one ground ball from another.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you believe that Cahill produces an abnormal number of medium-speed ground balls?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I might agree if I have ever seen a baseball game,
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Because he made 2.5 assists per nine innings last season.
That’s a lot of easy-to-handle comebackers. That certainly helped his BABIP.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 18, 2011 7:02 AM PST up reply actions
Those were presumably low-speed ground balls
And yes. Fielding is important.
Has anyone in here run the numbers on what his BABIP would be with a normal assist/nine ratio? My prediction is that the difference is less than you think.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Which, if true, is awesome!
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:08 AM PST up reply actions
It was a Saarloosss reference
It traveled through Tomko then settled on Cahill. I am sure in 3 years we will be using it for Haviland or someone
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Ah, but Trevor isn't as bad as those guys
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
I'm using Baseball Reference for BABIP.
Which I nearly always do for pitchers. I find their formula for calculating BABIP to be a more straightforward, literal interpretation than Fangraphs’. In which case, Webb’s BABIP is .291, Hudson’s .284, Lowe’s is .296….“around .300”. If you want to assume that Cahill is already as awesome as Hudson or Webb, two of the best groundballers of this generation, that still requires regressing his BABIP nearly 50 points, which would have made his ERA last year gain at least three quarters of a run.
Even if you assume that Cahill’s assists per game is 2 going forward (which is a stretch considering there’s only two seasons worth of data for him), that’s still only a difference of 8-15 plays per year between him and H, L, and W. Not nearly enough to produce much of a difference.
I’m not sure why you keep mentioning his curveball. It doesn’t seem to be anything more than a show me pitch at this point. Sure he’s throwing it more now, but it hasn’t lead to an increase in swinging strikes (his percentage last year is actually lower than ’09’s) and it has a slightly negative run value. Maybe you’re implying that it’s lead to more groundballs but isn’t it more likely that it’s because his sinker improved (an astounding 27.7 run value) than the curve?
And of course, that statement about tRA and SIERA is completely inaccurate….especially considering that a stat like tRA was developed specifically to account for groundball pitchers. Obviously, it’s not completely foolproof and doesn’t account for every possible variable….and no one’s saying that it does. But it’s good enough at what it does that it’s very useful.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
tRA and SIERA cannot tell one groundball from another, thusly can't account for the truckload of weak comebackers Cahill snagged last year.
I’m not sure why you keep mentioning his curveball.
Surely you’re familiar with combinative pitching. One pitch plays off another; one weaker pitch makes another, stronger pitch even more successful.
Cahill suddenly developed a pitch that breaks away from righties. He had no such thing before (his changeup and sinker tail in to righties – as sinkers and changeups are wont to do). His sinker became more effective in part just because he has a curveball.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that off balance hitters probably hit a few more weak comebackers than hitters who aren’t fooled. I think Nico’s pterodactyl theory holds more weight than others are crediting it for. 2.5 assists per 9 bears that out; it means you’re 1) getting a lot more weak contact than other pitchers and 2) playing great D.
Luck certainly has a lot to do with it. Cahill being a good pitcher probably has a lot to do with it, too.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 18, 2011 7:21 AM PST up reply actions
This sounds like a bunch of post facto reasoning to me.
The notion that throwing more of a weak pitch increases the effectiveness of a strong pitch is not backed up by any evidence that I’m aware of. In any case, it’s counter intuitive and doesn’t even hold up logically: if you’re throwing more of a weak pitch, you’re still decreasing your overall effectiveness because you’re, well, throwing more of a pitch that’s not good at getting outs. Even if it does increase the effectiveness of a strong pitch, the net overall effect mostly cancels out.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
No, he's right on this one
Even where a pitcher has a pitch which is better than another pitch in all circumstances and counts, it can be correct to throw the other pitch a percentage of the time for game theory reasons, and doing so will indeed, in some sense, increase the effectiveness of the other pitch (really, what it does is decrease the effectiveness of the hitter against the other pitch).
Which doesn’t say much about Cahill, to be sure.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Fair enough. I see what you guys are saying.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
To flesh it out a bit further:
Most batters try to see what the pitch is going to be as it’s delivered (some hitters just try to make educated guesses beforehand). All the batter has to do is know that you have another pitch in your arsenal that you can throw for a strike (especially one that moves differently from all of your other pitches) for it to have a positive effect on your bread and butter pitch.
Any effect on the batter’s timing/recognition will have positive results. In this case, I think it created quite a few more weakly-hit ground balls (because the bread and butter pitch in this case was a really good sinker).
by sleepingcobra on Feb 18, 2011 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
I'd think there's a pretty big difference between 30 and 50 assists
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:22 AM PST up reply actions
It's 20 plays.
Maybe 10% of the plays are plays the average pitcher can’t make. 2 plays isn’t significant.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
This is the key question. Is it 10% or 50%?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:09 AM PST up reply actions
83 assists in slightly less than 400 innings pitched, man
In the scheme of defensive runs, that’s probably around 4 or 5. Not a whole lot.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
I don't understand fielding stats very well
but fangraphs lists his DRS as 9 for 2010. Which is almost a win, right? It’s 2 for 2009, so that’s only 11 in two years, but still…
I’m sure someone here can make more sense of this than I can…
This sounds like a big deal. If he can really add half a win per year with fielding
that’s a lot.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:22 AM PST up reply actions
But the assists themselves are highly variable
It’s hard to say what an average pitcher doesn’t do that Cahill does as a fielder. Let’s say average pitcher has a spread of -3 to +3 in DRS and Cahill is +5. That’s really then only 2 runs above average, which is probably insignificant.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 18, 2011 12:32 AM PST up reply actions
Doesn't +5 mean 5 runs above average?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:42 AM PST up reply actions
er, 2 run difference
It’s late. Still, not a lot.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 18, 2011 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not talking about defensive runs. I'm talking about Cahill's 2010 vs. Cahill's 2009 and why his ERA was so low.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
My bad
Still, I’m not convinced he can create poor contact. Moreover, I’m not sure pitcher assists are a good proxy measure for this if it indeed exists.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
needs moar bacon
by cuppingmaster on Feb 17, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
I think they are a proxy of something if you have a Ruthian BABIP and you essentially doubled your Assists over last season in only a few more innings.
Something’s up that SIERA, tRA and the like aren’t telling us.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 17, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
A large number of extra outs surely correlates with a 13% decrease in BABIP, but it hardly explains it
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
What's the difference between correlation and explanation in this context?
If Cahill pretty much blew away the whole league in assists. He got more weak comebackers than anyone else. Of course luck was involved – but how does that not explain a decrease in BABIP – all your extra outs are accounted for right there.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 19, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
Or he speared comebackers other pitchers couldn't get to (so they went for hits)
Pterodactyl spears, assists up, BABIP down. That’s assuming his assist total was high; I’m getting different claims on that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Nico I posted this further down:
Trevor Cahill was second in all of baseball in pitcher assists (3 behind Tim Hudson), and he did it in over 30 less innings than Hudson. If you look at the leaderboard, it becomes even more impressive when you begin to realize he picked up almost twice as many assists per 9 innings as everyone else.
Sort this by assists.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 19, 2011 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
And I'm focusing on "weak comebackers" as opposed to "spearing line drives" primarily because I think there's something larger at work here.
I think Cahill may have been inducing weaker contact in 2010 – and it’s precisely all his assists that serve as evidence – how many weak comebackers must one accrue before it stops being pure luck?
by sleepingcobra on Feb 19, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
What I'm saying is it's ALSO evidence
that there may be something to the “pterodactyl” theory: that he fields many comebackers that get through for other pitchers. That would also increase his assist total. Either reason, or both, could be in play here.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Having a low BABIP in and of itself means that your defense, and likely the pitcher himself, will have more assists
If you, by pure luck, produce a whole lot of weak ground balls, then you may rack up a lot of assists in a given year.
It’s as likely that you’re inverting the causation as accurately identifying it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
The only correlation I'm establishing
is that Cahill’s inordinate amount of assists (per 9 innings) necessarily means that there was an inordinate amount of weak contact. His inordinate BABIP bears that out. One would be remiss to ignore the implication.
The more one moves the measuring needle toward either extreme the more one must allow for something being a repeatable skill (or lack of). Let’s see how Cahill performs in 2011.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 24, 2011 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
But Nico was also suggesting that Cahill's range allows his defenders to be better
by covering turf they’d otherwise have to. Not sure how to evaluate if this is true, but if it is it would apply to every single groundball, whether it got anywhere near the pitcher or not…
The way to do it, I imagine
might be to look at overhead photos of the infield when Cahill is facing a lineup, and look at photos of the infield with another pitcher on the mound facing the same lineup, and see whether it looks like Pennington and Ellis are positioned farther from 2B with Cahill on the mound than with other pitchers.
It’s not perfect, since the IFs will set up differently with a LH than a RH, but it might tell us something.
Or, you know, Nico could ask Gallego like he says he will ;)
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I will. I plan to introduce myself by shouting "GAGS!!!!!"
and go from there.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Try knocking the cap off his head from behind. That usually gets a lot of laughs.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I prefer to start with racial epithets,
but yes, then I’ll move to “Guillening” him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This could be true or it could be ex post facto reasoning. We don't know which it is right now.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
hold on
if an infielder’s involved in 300-400 plays per year, and Cahill was involved in 70, isn’t that suggesting that the pticher is just as important defensively as the other infielders? I.e. that if Cahill had been out there every day, he would have been involved in 400 plays, too?
Thanks for the kind words, first of all.
You’re correct that a pitcher’s fielding ability can only matter so much, but my rebuttal (which is in the OP) is that it matters more with Cahill than it would for most pitchers because not only does he get a lot of ground balls, thus increasing the number of opportunities, and not only may more than average of those be softly hit, thus again increasing the number of opportunities, but the very wingspan from which Cahill derives his nickname, Pterodactyl, is what enables him to cover more range than a typical pitcher.
That’s three separate reasons he is in a position to impact games more positively with his defense than most pitchers can — there are more ground balls overall, more of them are hit in front of the mound, and he can cover more up the middle ground than most pitchers can.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The point is that:
1) He wasn’t involved in a significantly larger amount of plays than any average pitcher (54 assists). Basically, there aren’t significantly more plays or groundballs overall.
2) That amount is small enough that a significant defensive contribution can’t reasonably be expected. It’s not 54 plays. It’s how many of those 54 plays are plays that he makes and the average defensive pitcher can’t make. I used 25% in my original comment and even then, that’s not enough to make much of a difference.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
Actually 25% is kind of ridiculously high.
That would be saying that every fourth play Ellis, Pennington, and Kouz makes isn’t one that the majority of other infielders can’t make…
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
Got it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So where did his high defensive rating come from,
if he wasn’t involved in more plays than average? I’m actually not sure how the defensive metrics came up with a strong showing for Cahill. Do you know?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Defensive ratings =/= actual defensive production.
UZR doesn’t post its numbers for pitchers. His high defensive rating probably mostly comes from scouting reports.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
I see.
Interesting that he rated so high with scouts without handling an unusual number of balls in play. What is it he did so well that didn’t cause him to have more assists?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
After releasing the pitch...
Cahill squares up perfectly to the plate. He is ready to field his position after every pitch. He can move forward, left, right, etc… very well. Plus, he was a HS Shortstop until his senior year.
(You knew all of this)
by Colorado Fan on Feb 18, 2011 7:29 AM PST up reply actions
That should all lead to more assists, is my point.
The only thing I can think of is maybe more “1 unassisted” putouts and more “3-1” putouts. Did he have a lot more putouts than most pitchers?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Tons of pitchers used to be HS shortstops.
That really doesn’t mean a hell of a lot. The best pitcher on the team in HS was usually the SS or the CF or something when he wasn’t pitching.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
Does DRS include scouting reports in its numbers?
Which ones?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:23 AM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily scouting reports but subjective factors.
Or perhaps more accurately, factors that might not be measured entirely accurately. For example, DRS takes into account a pitcher’s ability to hold runners as well. Using mainly caught stealings and pickoffs, it calculates a runs saved number that makes part of DRS. But the problem is this: how is it able to isolate the pitcher’s ability to prevent caught stealings from the catcher’s throwing ability?
Actually the notion that a pitcher’s ability to hold runners well can contribute far more defensive runs saved than a pitcher’s fielding ability makes a lot of sense to me. To use an example, Mark Buerhle is widely considered to be one of the best fielding pitchers in the league and yet his actual fielding only made up 3 runs of his 8 total DRS. The rest (+5) comes from DRS’s calculation of his ability to hold runners.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
He was definitely involved in more plays than average
which gives him more of an opportunity to post a high (or, for that matter, low) rating.
I’d hesitate to generalize from infielder fielding to pitcher fielding on the issue of what percentage of plays are sufficiently difficult that the average player can’t make them. Pitchers deal with a lot of extremely difficult plays which they are not really “expected” to make. That’s not necessarily true of infielders.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
54 is a lot
54 assists in 200 innings is about the rate at which shortstops accumulate assists. I think this is very interesting. I had no idea that pitchers’ fielding was so important.
You continue to miss the point.
It’s not about “rate”. Defensive production isn’t a rate stat. It’s a counting stat like RBIs. There aren’t enough x amount of plays that average fielding pitchers can’t make in that 54 play sample size to propel Trevor Cahill’s defensive production above a significant threshold.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
How do we know this? Pitcher plays are hardly ever as routine as SS plays.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 12:24 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know if that's true.
In any case, we’re comparing Cahill to the average baseline established by all pitchers.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
...but it becomes more significant if you limit it to innings where Cahill is on the mound
(which you would obviously have to do). I think peter is pointing out that when Cahill is out there, he seems to be getting plenty of assists relative to other fielders, which means that he may have a significant effect on his BABIP.
If you want to compare defensive counting stats, you would have to calculate all the fielders’ defense for only those innings when Cahill is pitching.
correct
yes that is what I’m saying. I would have guessed that pitchers field a lot fewer balls than middle infielders, but that appears to be incorrect. I.e., if he is in fact a good fielder, this is a bigger deal than I would have thought. This point is just unrelated to the other fellow’s (valid) point that it’s hard to draw conclusions from 54 balls.
FWIW, I suspect pitcher fielding has a lot to do with how the pitcher is positioned when he finishes his delivery, and that Cahill has a big advantage over most pitchers in this regard. don’t know how you would measure this, or if there’ve been studies done……
more
but I disagree with the idea that this is too few balls for the defensive contribution to have been significant. At first glance, it looks like it’s no less significant than the defensive contribution of the other positions.
It would not surprise me if pitcher fielding varies more than fielding at other positions. It kind of stands to reason if you think about it. Another topic for somebody (else) to research, perhaps.
Again, 7% of the time he's the one responsible for making a play and getting an out.
74% of the time, the rest of the defense is responsible for getting him outs. The latter can obviously be expected to be making a huge defensive contribution. The former is not.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
You can't compare his assists to an individual fielder.
Sure, his assists per game might look significant when compared to say, Ellis’s assists-per-Cahill-start. But you have to compare it to the total assists contributed by everyone else on defense.
Cahill’s averaged 1.34 assists and 3.35 strikeouts per start since he entered the league. With roughly 6 innings per start, that means roughly 74% of the time the other eight guys on defense are getting him outs. He’s only getting outs himself 7% of the time (non strikeout division). It’s not significant.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
sorry?
so, if Trevor (or whoever) is accumulating assists at the same rate as Mark Ellis, that’s not significant because……..the contributions of one of the nine fielders isn’t all that significant? I.e. Mark Ellis by himself isn’t contributing all that much to Trevor’s success, either? If thatr’s what you’re saying, then I’m looking at the same info and drawing the opposite conclusion- i.e. if Trevor is in fact a really good fielder, then this is a non-trivial part of the overall package of goodness (above average-ness?) that is Trevor Cahill.
No.
Ellis’s contribution in Cahill starts is probably not significant. Cahill’s contribution is probably not significant.
Ellis+Kouz+Pennington+Barton+Suzuki+whoever the heck is playing the outfield….the total of those players’ contributions in Cahill’s starts is very significant compared to Cahill’s individual contribution. That’s what matters.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 18, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
agree to disagree?
I guess it depends on what you consider to be significant. If you’re saying that his fielding doesn’t really matter, I disagree. If you’re saying it can’t possibly explain much of the gap between his ERA and DIPS, then sure.
curious...how does your last sentence fit with your middle sentence?
if his defense doesn’t explain the difference between his ERA and DIPS, then why do you think its significant?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
it seems to me that you talk about cahill as if he's the greatest ground ball pitcher ever
if cahill pitches 6 innings. he’s gonna strike out 3.3 guys, allow 5.6 air outs and 9.0 ground outs. eh, roughly.
you’re posting like he’s recording ground outs at a rate similar to webb or lowe. he’s not.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
yes
well, I mean you could drive a truck through the gap between Cahill’s ERA and DIPS. I mean, it’s like 30 runs in 2010 depending what you think his DIPS was. Could his fielding be worth 30 runs or even 10? No. Could the difference between his being a really and really bad fielder be worth one win for the A’s? Yeah. Or at least without having crunched the numbers, it seems plausible.
Yes, I’m assuming Cahill is the prototypical groundball pitcher. His GB% was 5th among MLB starters last year. Hudson was #1, Lowe #3, and Fausto Carmona #7. Isn’t that what Trevor is? The kind of guy where you wish he’d just throw regular grounders instead of baltimore chops that never come down?
wouldn't 10 runs be 1 win? so it'd be less than that, no?
it’s a pretty steep drop from 1st to 5th
notably, hudson is probably my favorite (non rickey henderson) a’s player of all time
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
oops, yeah
Oh so sayeth the sages. So maybe half a win. Anyway, it would be nice if he were a good fielder. And it seems like he is.
Point one is completely wrong.
Trevor Cahill was second in all of baseball in pitcher assists (3 behind Tim Hudson), and he did it in over 30 less innings than Hudson. If you look at the leaderboard, it becomes even more impressive when you begin to realize he picked up almost twice as many assists per 9 innings as everyone else.
As to point two, I agree that it’s not going to significantly affect his WAR (or DRS or whatever), but we need to think about what it means in a practical sense, and this is something SIERA or tRA are unable to comprehend:
A weak comebacker to the pitcher is literally one of the worst kinds of contact a batter can make. Of course there’s an unimaginable shit load of luck at play – it’s baseball – nearly every result stems from an infinitesimal instant; a collision between two unwieldy objects hurtling toward eachother at combined speeds approaching 200 miles an hour.
But when you have an outlier like Cahill in 2010 – who blows away the league in pitcher assists – I find it unacceptable to wave your hands and say “NOPE, SORRY, IT WAS ALL LUCK. MOVE ALONG. NOTHING TO SEE HERE.”
I do not intend to say that Cahill’s Comebackers are a repeatable skill year-over-year. But I think it’s unfair to omit the possibility that he had a particularly nasty sinker in 2010 and that he (hold your ears Voros McCracken) induced a good deal of shit contact.
by sleepingcobra on Feb 19, 2011 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think I'll have to rec this post...
which means you’ll be targeted. But, hang in there… I think you’re on the right track. ;-)
"... and A-Rod is forced to admit that Dallas got to the Hall of Fame before he did." - en
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 19, 2011 10:23 PM PST up reply actions
I tried
To hit the Like button at the top for Facebook (never done that with an article before) but it seemed to freak out a pop up window. Is that functionality not working?
Think this is an excellent, well written post, and for the most part, the comments have been well thought out and not as – trying to think of the best word – might be snippy? – as in some previous threads.
derek lowe had one year with a .235 babip
he never sniffed it again. it was his first year as a starter.
he had a higher groundball rate than cahill did (67% and 3.36x gb/fb ratio vs cahill at 56% and 1.93x)
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Let's look at some history of A's pitchers
From 2000 to 2010 A’s pitchers lead the AL with a 3.98 ERA. Their FIP is 4.17. 4.34 xFIP A’s pitchers typically outperform their pitching metrics. I think most of this has to do with the park. Either that, or Billy knows something about pitchers or defense that the metrics don’t. Their BABIP in that time is .287(and that’s with a team UZR of -1.4 in that time, average) and a 9.3 HR/FB(Cahill’s was 11.2, a bit unlucky maybe?). With an average defense, the team usually has a low BABIP. You can easily expect BABIP to be lower than that with the current defense.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Interesting
And it makes sense.
I think something like a “rich get richer, poor get poorer” sort of thing is at play. By that i mean, when a park is tough/cold to hit in, and the pitchers are good, as the A’s have been, a collective “giving up” by the opponents or slightly not trying as hard/playing the game out until you can leave Oaktown takes over. This over time could add that bit of discrepancy.
It’s subtle, but when you go to a park you know is a hitters park, somehow the opposite becomes true too. Just the perception, combined with the realities of the park, makes human nature play out to accent the factors. (Like Colorado pitchers probably underperform their pitching metrics, or used to all those years before the humidor.) It’s a thing where hitters look to feast there, focus more, and then get the nice park effects too.
Confidence breeds success, and vice versa.
I also think this helps A’s pitchers another similar way. When you’re early in the season, or even early in your career, and still finding your rhythm, to have the park help you really helps their confidence, which then helps them everywhere.
by supersugarCrisp on Feb 17, 2011 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
The Teanm UZR wasn't that good in 2010
I bet a lot of the negative UZR was from DyeLongJustice, ByrnesGiambistairs etc.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
This comment just uzr's with sarcasm.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What do you mean?
They lead the AL in UZR
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Anyone can lead the AL
Talk to me when you lead China, or the sun, or something.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
did they? I thought the OF defense was lousy last year?
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
It did hit a wall at one point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I thought it hit a mat-t
Non-stat guy: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Non-stat guy: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
It was. outside of Coco
Which says something about the IF defense.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
is that stat based statement?
I thought Davis and Sweeney were meant to be good defenders. If not, what the heck were they doing out there?
Yeah it is
Davis had a bad year defensively. Sweeney regressed and was hurt. And then we also threw out a bunch of players like Eric Patterson, Jack Fox, Gabe Gross, and Chris Carter
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
i predict cahill will have a Made Up Stat of 6.27 this year
that’s pretty good, but nowhere near halladay’s 8.54
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 17, 2011 6:14 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
I have him pegged at between 6 and 7 this year too
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Mmm...I have him at no less than an 8 but certainly no higher than a 4.5
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Would you then consider 2011 an "outlier" season for him?
It sounds like it would place better than the best, and worse than the worst in the AL.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I enjoyed his 2011 season and think it portends great things to come in 2008.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We're on the same page, then.
Though I haven’t bought the book yet.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I've studied it cover to cover
Though I haven’t learned how to read yet.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, I been dictating this to my dog, since he is the only one who can type.
It’s just hard for me to get the barks right.
I know I live a long ways from the Colliseum, but I would love to hook up at an A’s game with some of you AN’ers.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I tried letting my dog help transcribe my interviews,
but he was terrible with the paws button.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2011 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Be more patient...
…give him or her some leash in this process.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 18, 2011 3:31 AM PST up reply actions
Great post, really well crafted but what about the offense?
Great article! Thanks. I have a question though. Pitcher specific stats aside, should we also factor in the offense that is supporting the pitcher? I ask this for two reasons, obviously, if the team scores more runs, the pitcher will win more games. In Cahill’s case, does anyone know how many more games he would have won last year if the A’s scored 1-2 more runs/game? Additionally, is there a way to consider how a pitcher pitches differently based on scoring advantage? That is, does a good pitcher change how they pitch (and their associated stats) when they’re ahead 1-0, down early, ahead 10-0?
For us offense-deprived A’s fans (now that we got rid of Cust we’re no longer offense-depraved at least) how can we expect all of our pitchers to change/improve statistically now that we should score another 1-2 runs/game on average and potentially score them earlier in a game?
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
My take would be that
the main effect you can anticipate from a better offense is a higher win total, and not much else.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah, but wins are such an outdated stat.
I don’t know why they are even used anymore.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
I'm not ready to go that far with it.
Pitchers still have the most influence over the game and deserve most of the credit for it’s outcome save for the efforts of the opposing pitcher.
Thought experiment: if the Athltics trotted out a scrub pitcher like myself, give me one solid reason why I shouldn’t avoid the “loss” that I would certainly have caused for the team?
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 18, 2011 3:38 AM PST up reply actions
You could do a lotta damage at SS as well.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 3:54 AM PST up reply actions
Any particular reason why you didn't directly answer the question?
And where would I likely have more influence in causing a loss? Direct answers would be great.
UncleLeo summing up pretty much all Meta on AN
"It boils down to this. You guys aren’t fans of our management and look through that prism." ~ DrDoom
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 18, 2011 4:24 AM PST up reply actions
I didn't care to
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 4:43 AM PST up reply actions
I meant TEAM wins.
Why do we rank teams with a W-L matrix? There must be a better way. Average team hottie-ness? W-L/payroll? Can we somehow allow for pranks? I’m just tired of the “best” team losing.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
Answer:
They never would, because there are too many freely available players who are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than you.
If you want a “credit for impact on outcome” stat, go with WPA. You’ll see that often the winning pitcher has the highest WPA, but not so often that they’re a wise bet against the field.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Besides, just because you can single-handedly lose a game doesn't mean you can single-handedly win it.
Exploring the limits of what's acceptable in a CT thread.
You may be right
But I’m just thinking about stress innings. If you have a 4 run lead, for example, you can be a bit more selective with your pitches and not worry about giving up a single or a walk and you can rely on your defense more (which plays into our strength). That compares to when you’re in a 1-1 or 1-0 situation and you have to be extremely careful.
So, I would propose that if our offense increases our average scoring output by two runs, our pitchers will get better, providing that our defense remains at least as good as it was last year.
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
I would propose that if our offense increases our average scoring output by two runs,
the A’s will win the World Series!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2011 8:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I would not object to this.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And then...
We’d be able to sign Albert Pujols cuz we’re a world series champ and then we could win about another four world series in a row!
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Speaking of Pujols,
it’s hard to know whether the Rangers are “almost bankrupt” or “the new West Coast Yankees” — but let’s assume it’s actually somewhere in between.
If the Beltre signing puts them out of the running to bid for Pujols next off-season, all I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you, Adrian Beltre.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Especially if Beltre tanks...then it's a double bonus!
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
Why would it?
Their payroll is at roughly 75 million right now. Signing Pujols, even at the monstrous 30mil/year sum, would only push it slightly above 100 million.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 17, 2011 9:50 PM PST up reply actions
They never were almost bankrupt...
Hicks was bankrupt and his creditors wanted to auction off the team to the highest bidder. The MLB gave them cash in hopes of directing the sale to Ryan’s group. The team was always financially fine. As Lenscrafters said they got a $80m down payment on their tv contract and could easily push their payroll to the 100m range.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 17, 2011 9:54 PM PST up reply actions
Final thought on this
I’m not very good at stats (which is why I went into marketing) but if anyone can figure out two things, it would be interesting to validate or invalidate my hypothesis:
1. How many games did the A’s lose last year by 2 or fewer runs?
2. If a quality start is 6 innings, in how many games were the A’s down by 2 or fewer runs after 6 innings?
Of course, then there’s the impact on the bullpen at that point but that’s taking us off topic. Again, great post. Thanks!
Hey dad, I got this guy's autograph, Rollie
Fingers. Who's he?
If the A's score 2 more runs/game than they did last season,
they will almost certainly win over 100 games. Even if Cedric Bowers is the closer.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And this is on top of us outscoring our 2010 opponents by 37 runs.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
Not to mention one of the best offenses in MLB history
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I'm in favor of this
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:12 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
quality of contact
matters a great deal and is within the control of a pitcher with Cahill’s abilities. put a strong infield defense behind Cahill and he’s going to have similar numbers for quite a few years. think of all the other pitchers who “over performed” without being overpowering. one former A’s pitcher in the hall of fame comes to mind right away. many here would have been waiting for Catfish Hunter to regress for many, many years.
Um, it's been, like, 14 hours
and I still haven’t seen OptimistPrime’s dramatic reading of this post. Hello???
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
needs moar meta
It’s so loud inside my head, with words that I should have said.
As I drown in my regrets, I can’t take back the words I never said...
Excellent...
I’d have to say you’ve nailed it, Nico!
"... and A-Rod is forced to admit that Dallas got to the Hall of Fame before he did." - en
Quality of contact
As noted by several commenters, that seems to be the critical issue here.
If I have missed this, please clue me in, but I haven’t seen a statistic that attempts to measure how hard balls are hit against Cahill compared to other pitchers. Everyone talks about the A’s great infield defense last year, and how much it helped Cahill. That’s obviously true, but in the games when he pitched well, I don’t recall a lot of diving stops and screaming liners that landed in gloves. I recall a lot of routine ground balls. That’s probably selective memory on my part, but it seems like the hitter’s contact quality is awfully important in determining whether Cahill was quite lucky or actually good.
Stat folks, is there a way to determine this, or even make a reasonable stab at it?
By the way, Nico, I wasn’t really looking forward to another Cahill piece, but you did a nice job with it. You and dfa made the Cahill-fest of a week quite tolerable.
and, if there is such a stat...
I’d be interested in seeing it compared to other great pitchers (like Cahill). ;-)
"... and A-Rod is forced to admit that Dallas got to the Hall of Fame before he did." - en
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 17, 2011 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
good luck wouldn't look like diving stops
it would look like an unusual amount of balls hit more or less towards infielders. I think? Or I just drank a bottle of wine by myself. Either way.
It could be either...diving stops or atem balls that is. The wine is separate.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 18, 2011 3:17 AM PST up reply actions
I hate ala carte.
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
Well, i Don't Think There's Such A Stat
But a hitter’s contact is partially based on the pitch he sees. Most guys won’t be able to make good contact on difficult pitches, particularly ones that are placed in the batter’s “cold” zone. Thus, their contact quality will go down.
Cahill was pitching well last year, and he was throwing effective pitches, particularly his curve and sinker. Thus, he probably quite a lot of pitches that made it difficult for the hitters to hit well, or get the ball on the sweet spot of the bat.
So ultimately, part of it is based of the pitch thrown and part on the hitter’s actual skill.
You'd think that, but you'd be wrong
Very few pitchers (non-knuckle division) demonstrate an ability to maintain a below-average BABIP.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The agencies that collect raw defensive stats categorize the speed of each ground ball
I asked somewhere in here if that was aggregated and reported anywhere, but if there was an answer I missed it.
You could, of course, buy their stats and do it yourself but I assume neither of us is willing to do that.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I remember someone at fangraphs measuring the ball speed and angle coming off the bat of Jose Bautista.
In an effort to prove the power surge was real. If they’re keeping that info on batters, you’d just have to compile a list of every batter he faced and average that out.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
someone is keeping track
you can probably have the info for $20,000
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Is there anything we can tell from the vast difference between his BABIP against lefties and righties?
I mean, his BABIP was .270 against lefties, and .192(!) against righties. Is this just a coincidence, or is there something more here?
Wow.
In theory, I suppose you could chalk it up to a factor like, “better infield/outfield defense on one side of the diamond than on the other” and where LH/RH batters hit more balls. But in practice, I think you’d be foolish not to give some credit to the pitcher who allows less than 20% of the balls RH batters put into play to go for hits. But you’d also be foolish not to expect that number to regress upwards in 2011.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I guess I'm going to be foolish for another couple of years then, because I don't buy Cahill
has control over that until he proves it some more.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:13 AM PST up reply actions
well, you are going to be proved foolsh....
Cuz Cahill is gonna be great! Even to Nico’s chagrin (he really believes the dumb statheads on this one.)
"... and A-Rod is forced to admit that Dallas got to the Hall of Fame before he did." - en
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 19, 2011 2:49 AM PST up reply actions
I'm kind of torn
Normally, I’d just go with the “BABIP isn’t something that pitchers can really control,” because that’s what everyone who’s looked into it seems to be saying. However, if we assume assume that the “true” BABIP (for RHBs) against Cahill should be, say, .280, then there’s only a 0.09% chance of him putting up that .192 over a full season. I suppose the only reason we’re even talking about it is because it’s so ridiculously low, and it could be him hitting that 1 in 1100 chance, but I’m not sure if that’s more likely than him having some ability to limit RHBs BABIP (but not .192 limit, of course) AND getting super lucky.
You know what I find funny is that the stat guys last year were the ones
Trying to convince everyone that Gio was actually probably a good pitcher. And now that the numbers tell them that someone might be worse, they’re all the sudden the bad guys.
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
This. Or two years ago when I made the case for Outman in the starting rotation.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 18, 2011 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
I believe you've just discovered the magic concept of "telling people what they want to hear"
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I think you guy's should trade him now while his value is artificially high.
You guys need a 3rd basemen of the future. How about James Darnell? He’s a legit power 3rd basemen. If not for the injury bug, he would’ve produced better last season. Cory Luebke is a better than decent left hander I would include in the deal. Darnell and Luebke could be a decent haul for a guy likely to have a 4 ERA with 13 wins next season.
If not that, then I could go with a Drew Cumberland and Donovon Tate for Cahill. Cumberland projects as a power 2nd basemen and Tate is a toolbox. Raw, but extremely high ceiling.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
None of those guys projects as a 2-3 WAR player in 2011. I wouldn't do it.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 2:14 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know that any of them projects as a 2-3 WAR player ever
Luebke and Darnell are chaff (Darnell is a year older than Parker and coming off a much worse season). Tate’s done nothing in organized baseball and has horrific contact problems that make Max Stassi look like Tony Gwynn. Cumberland’s about the only semi-interesting guy of the lot.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Well the point is I wouldn't make any trades that didn't improve the team in 2011
Er…that is unless we’re in full rebuilding mode which maybe we should be, but I wouldn’t operate on that basis yet.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 20, 2011 5:13 AM PST up reply actions
Partly a tongue in cheek trade proposal. I know you're in "win now" mode.
This was mainly for the benefit of those that don’t think he’s going to be a fantastic pitcher. Truth is, we couldn’t afford to part with the prospects to get him if that list included names like Kelly, Castro, Rizzo, Decker, or Lollis. We desperately need most of these guys to produce and maybe get lucky on a few surprises (Oramas?) to be competetive over the next 4-6 years.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
Ah, got it.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 21, 2011 6:56 AM PST up reply actions
not sure that would work
I don’t think any FOs would be dumb enough to over-value Cahill based on W-L and ERA. Not in the AL, anyway. I don’t think there’s a single AL team that doesn’t have a really good grasp of this this type of stuff, whether it’s intuitive or stat-based. My further guess is that some of the teams (the A’s being one) are way ahead of SABR and friends on some of this stuff. i.e. valuing minor leaguers and draft picks, DIPS, fielding, the relative value of different positions, etc. I’d love to know whether or not I’m right about this.
White Sox gave up on Swisher after one year
He had a pretty low BABIP but a pretty good line drive rate
""Expelliarmus!" said Eckstein, attempting to knock the bat out of Matt Kemp's hands, just before Kemp laced a single to center." -Ken Tremendous
Twins might take him. They have "pitch to contact" guys in their rotation
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 19, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
Cahill walks too many guys to be a Twins pitcher...
I think Braden’s more their type, to be honest.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
OK then the Yankees might take him. They need a starter. Cahill for Montero!
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 20, 2011 5:14 AM PST up reply actions
Fantastic post Nico
“Quality of Contact” and “Low Slugging Against” is going right in my baseball lexicon. These are absolutely important tools to consider when evaluating pitchers. I think it complements BABIP, FIP and xFIP and puts their numbers in the proper perspective.
"Never have a motto, that's what I always say" - Me
http://marcel-oehler.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1986/05/19860506.gif
"I Hate SF" - The Chosen One.
Thanks -- I always appreciate your perspective.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal





























