Catfish Hunter: Worst HOF Pitcher?
I posted this on my blog The Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan a few days ago and a reader here on AN suggested I share with the group as a whole so I am. I just want to add though that, I never saw Catfish Hunter pitcher, was born a year and a half after he threw his last pitch, and from everything I've seen and read think he was a very good pitcher. So I am not ragging on somebody here, I just read an interesting article and looking at the facts had to agree with it. Onto the piece...
Catfish Hunter is best known as the ace pitcher for the A's on their three consecutive World Series Championship teams of 1972 through 1974 along with his becoming baseball's highest paid pitcher and first real big-money free agent in 1975. He was elected to the Hall of Fame in his third year of eligibility (1987) with 76.3% of the vote. In a post earlier this week, Sports Illustrated's Joe Posnanski says that "unquestionably, the shakiest Hall of Fame choice of pitchers born in the last hundred or so years was Catfish Hunter." Those are pretty strong words, unquestionably means, we cannot question it but we will.
Posnanski's first point is that:
"He pitched at the perfect time — when hitting was almost non-existent. His career 3.26 career ERA looks good, but his 105 ERA+ does not. That’s because teams did not score runs then. Take 1968. Hunter went 13-13 with a 3.35 ERA in ’68, which looks darned good to the naked eye. But sharpen that eye with just a little bit of perspective and you see that nobody hit in the American League in 1968, and Hunter pitched in an extreme pitcher’s park in Oakland. His ERA+ was 84, which is terrible. He actually had a negative WAR. With that perspective, you can see that Hunter was probably the worst pitcher in the league to throw 200 innings."
He did have negative WAR in 1968 and also in 1977 and 1979. Furthermore in 1968, the "Year of the Pitcher" his numbers were particularly poor. But, really why compare him in a freak year? That is sort of unfair. However, he still had several years where his ERA+ was nothing to write-home-to-Hertford about like 1970 where he had an 18-14 record, and posted a 3.81 ERA (higher than both the AL average [3.71] and Oakland average [3.66]). That season his ERA+ was 93 on a team that boasted an ERA+ of 108. Or what about his 1973 season where he had a very pedestrian ERA+ of 107 despite a 21-5 record and 3.34 ERA. That year he was outpitched by Ken Holtzman (ERA+ 120) and Vida Blue (ERA+ 109) and failed again to live up to the team average of 109. Despite this he received more Cy Young votes than both Holtzman (who received none) and Blue (who placed 7th) finishing 3rd in the American League. Of course, this was offset by some truly fantastic years as far as ERA+ was concerned, namely his 1974 and 1975 seasons (which he finished first and second in Cy Young voting respectively) when he posted ERA+'s of 134 and 144 respectively. However in his entire career he finished in the top three of ERA+ in the AL only thrice, 1972 (5th), 1974 (4th) and 1975 (3rd). So despite being very selective in his choice, Posnanski is pretty much on the mark here, that Hunter wasn't that much better than his cohorts in the American League let alone all of baseball during his tenure in the Majors.
Posnanski's next point is:
"He had a high profile. He was a very good pitcher in three years — 1972, 1974 and 1975 — and probably a below-average pitcher the rest of his career. But the Oakland A’s won the World Series in two of those years, and the third was his first year as a high-profile free agent with the Yankees. This made his good years look even better."
As just mentioned those three years mark the three years his ERA+ was in the top ten, so I have to agree with him here as well. It certainly does not hurt to be in the spotlight with a three-time World Champion and when you're the highest paid pitcher in baseball people take notice. Even though I feel it is a meaningless statistic, Hunter did in 1975 also lead the American League in wins with 23 which in 1975 would have received far more attention than the sabermetrics that did not yet exist to evaluate him.
"He was wonderfully likable, not only as a man but as a pitcher … he was extremely efficient, didn’t strike out or walk too many, came after hitters (even if it meant giving up a homer or three) and threw a lot of innings. As Bill James wrote once, he didn’t make things any harder than they needed to be. He had a great nickname."
I have never read anything less than favorable regarding Catfish Hunter as a person, and I think if I were around in the 70s I too would have been a fan of his. But do I think his nickname propelled him into the Hall of Fame? No. Otherwise Hunter rotation mate Blue Moon Odom should be in as should Superjew Mike Epstein. So this is a weak argument, lots of nice guys aren't in the Hall of Fame.
"He retired at precisely the right time so that he beat the rush of great pitchers to hit the ballot in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Hunter made it into the Hall in 1987."
This is interesting because we have seen other players impacting other players on the ballot but I just don't feel like that makes a difference. Perhaps if he were head to head with some of these other pitchers from his era like Tom Seaver or Steve Carlton, but really his numbers started off strong with in 1985 him finishing with 53.7% of the BBWAA vote, followed up with a 68.0% in 1986 before his 1987 election. In the history of Hall of Fame voting (excluding those still eligible) only two players have received more than 40% on their first ballot and have never entered the Hall, they are (from this amazing analysis from Larry Stone of the Seattle Times) Steve Garvey and Lee Smith. So realistically once Hunter started at 53.7% he was in. It didn't matter who was down the pike so to speak.
"There is no question, based on all 62 pitchers in the Hall of Fame, that Catfish Hunter does not meet the Hall of Fame standards set by the voters. Writers voted him in because they liked him or because they were blind to the context of the time or because he just felt like a Hall of Famer in the gut. Hunter was a likable enough soul that nobody should feel too bad personally about him being in the Hall.
The negative is that Hunter’s name can be used to make the case for almost anybody, really. There are 150 pitchers in baseball history with a higher WAR than Hunter’s 32.5. Nobody wants Catfish Hunter to be the Hall of Fame standard … except, of course, when it comes to their favorite pitcher.
Do you know, by the way, which of the notable absentees has by far the highest WAR? That would be Rick Reuschel. In fact, Reuschel’s 66.3 WAR is the best for ANY eligible non-Hall of Famer. It’s a career that you might want to review. He probably should have won the Cy Young in 1977, too."
Looking at the different "Hall of Fame metrics", Hunter comes up pathetically short, Black Ink is 26 (with average HOFer being 40), Gray Ink is 151 (with average HOFer being 185), even the somewhat generous Hall of Fame Standards Test has Hunter flunking with a 42 (average HOFer being 50). Only in one metric, the Hall of Fame Monitor does Hunter pass with a 134 (likely HOFer being 100) but this statistic "attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving [emphasis mine]) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame".
Looking at Hunter he was not overpowering at all, during his career (1965-1979) he ranks 87th out of 154 among pitchers with at least 1,000IP with 5.25 K/9. It isn't like he made up for that by being a control specialist, where he still ranks a little above average at 33rd out of 154 with 2.49BB/9. His ERA (3.26) ranks 53rd out of 154, and his FIP (3.66) is 117th out of 154, the top-third or top 60% isn't exactly Hall of Fame material. He does rack up in wins however, and this sort of supports Posnanski's "high-profile teams" argument, because high profile teams tend to be winning teams. Hunter is 6th in wins between 1965 and 1979 and everyone who precedes his 224 is in the Hall of Fame as are the two pitchers who follow him.
What Hunter seemed to benefit most from in his career and what seemed to propel him from the average pitcher he appears to be, to the Hall of Fame pitcher that the BBWAA felt he was, was a bit of luck in the form of being on two very successful ballclubs, the Oakland A's of the early 1970's and the New York Yankees of the late 1970's and a very low BABIP. While there is some debate as to whether or not pitchers can control their BABIP, and I feel that they can influence it, Hunter's BABIP between 1965 and 1979 was 2nd lowest among the 154 pitchers who tossed at least 1,000 innings at an amazingly low .243. Which among pitchers all-time who have thrown at least 1,000 innings is the third lowest. Among pitchers who have thrown at least 3,000 innings, it is the lowest with the next lowest being Jim Palmer's .249. So while Hunter may not have been a deserving Hall of Famer he did do something interesting and right and was certainly a pitcher who helped Oakland and New York to a few World Championships.
All in all Posnanski is right that he is a very shaky choice - but it isn't unquestionable he is the shakiest. Depending on the argument regarding relief pitchers and their worthiness much can be said about Bruce Sutter's admission to the Hall of Fame. But among starting pitchers, Catfish Hunter has no equal in the Hall of Fame, everyone else in there is better than him.
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Is it the Hall of Stats, or is it the Hall of Fame?
Keep in mind also that a great many of the stats he’s using today either weren’t understood… or weren’t even existing… at the time of his playing days and election. With what we know today, he might not get in. With what we knew at the time, it was a borderline election, but not wholly unreasonable. We need to keep historical perspective when judging actions of the past.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
I agree completely.
Hindsight is 20/20. But it is really is amazing just how different he is from other HOF pitchers in quality.
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Interesting.
I too was born after Hunter’s career and know very little about him. I always assumed he was an unquestionable HOF, but some of those stats aren’t very good. Though, he did have 3 great years.
by theoriginalrods on Feb 11, 2011 11:33 AM PST reply actions
Moral of the story - titles matter.
Which is why Pettite is even in the HoF conversation. NOBODY would even mention the Hall in the same breath as Pettite if he was on the Royals his whole career.
by Billy Frijoles on Feb 11, 2011 11:51 AM PST reply actions
Well...they should.
He’s a hell of a pitcher.
by danmerqury on Feb 11, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah but his career stats line isn't that impressive
he’s only had a couple of really good years out of his entire career.
What did i tell you...didn't I say they would win? Yeah that's right I did didn't ? Wait.. what? They LOST?!?!?
His career stats line is very impressive.
Career 3.88 ERA, and he pitched until age 38? 3.75 FIP? Very groundball heavy? 66.9 career fWAR?
Posnanski had another article re: the HOF
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/02/06/pettitte-junction/
In that article he specifically talked about should the postseason really make a difference for players. And he compared Chuck Finley to Pettitte. The big difference being their postseason accomplishments (or lack thereof). Interesting debate.
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Also: New York matters.
Almost as much as titles…though of course they have often gone together.
There is no "i" in Teamocil. At least not where you'd think.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Feb 12, 2011 5:35 AM PST up reply actions
Great post. I really enjoyed it.
As for the Hall, I really don’t care very much one way or the other with anyone.
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 11, 2011 12:08 PM PST reply actions
I love the HOF, I love the HOF debates
Everyone has their own standards for the HOF. Things they think are fine and others they think arent, so I love the debate. Its always fun for me to talk baseball, and nothing stirs passions like everyone’s own HOF requirements.
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I know I'll probably get killed for this ...
but I never thought Nolan Ryan was all that great a pitcher. He had the kind of stuff that if he were “on”, he might throw a no-hitter (like a healthy Rich Harden) — but I was never all that worried when the A’s faced him.
Good pitcher, no doubt, and I have no problem with him being a HOF’er, based on the no-no’s alone. But I’d take 20-30 other pitchers over Ryan in a heartbeat if I had to choose.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
If you're saying he's the 31st greatest pitcher of all time that's pretty damn impressive
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 11, 2011 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
Yup, it is ... probably should've thought of a better way to put it.
But you know what I’m sayin’. LoL
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Great pitcher, but overrated
A lot of fan polls I’ve seen consistently put him as one of the top 1 or 2 post WW II pitchers.
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Feb 11, 2011 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, see, that's just CRAZY talk.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
I always thought so too, but I think Ryan is the opposite from Catfish
Catfish played for great teams and did ok. But Ryan played for medicore teams and did very well. His K/9 is 9.55 for his career which is AMAZING especially given he was still over 10K/9 in 1991 as a 40-something.
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I'm not a stats guy, so please don't perceive this as argumentative ...
I’ll concede Ryan struck a lot of guys out – no question – just not sure that makes him as “great” as some claim. He lost a lot of games – was this only because his teams were mediocre? What were his other stats like?
Also not sure I’d agree that Hunter’s A’s teams were “great” in the sense as is commonly perceived. They were very good because they had really good pitching and great defense, but their offensive numbers during their great run were very pedestrian, weren’t they?
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
he lost a lot of games because the 70s Angels weren't good
but also because he had a bb/9 of 4.7. He walked alot of people.
You are right, he was not the greatest. He was pretty average mostly. Sometimes really good.
But he also played for 27 years.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
I don't think you guys are realizing how many he struck out.
Career K/9 of 9.55. That’d be pretty great nowadays, but in his day? The league average was in the 4’s or the 5’s. Never touched 6. His 9.55 number is insane.
I think he is a hall of famer
I have seen ryan pitch more often than any other pitcher, I loved watching him pitch.
strickouts are exciting. But I don’t think he should be considered as one of the best ever.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
Strikeouts are more than exciting.
They’re the number one thing a pitcher can do. His historical dominance at strikeouts makes him one of the best ever.
See, strickouts are exciting!
So, why are people upset with Cust?
Fan: "Yeah, whatever. You’re wrong." Stat guy: "No, you’re wrong." Fan: "Cool. Pass me a beer." Stat guy: "Here you go." Sigh, if only it was this easy.
Let me go further.
Let’s call the average K/9 during his career as 5.25. I’m eyeballing it, but it’s likely around there. That’d make his K rate 82% better than league average. A K/9+ of 182. The modern day equivalent would be a career K/9 of 12.5. From a starting pitcher. Forget about career—the only semi-recent single seasons that have been put up by a starting pitcher with a K/9+ in the 180 range are all either Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez.
the era also swung at more pitches
he would not do well against todays red sox or yankees
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
You have to compare players to the competition of their era, not of future ones.
Neifi Perez is most likely a more talented baseball player than Babe Ruth.
I don't buy this.
Willie Mays is the best baseball player I ever saw, better than Barry Bonds I, Alex Rodriguez or Albert Pujols. Ruth played only 25 years before Mays. It’s not as though Ruth played 500 years ago or something.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 11, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
How do you know?
How do you know that Mays is the best baseball player you’ve ever seen? You can’t possibly know, just by the eye test. The competition is so different. This is an extreme example, obviously, but put Terrence Long in a community softball league, and he’d look like god’s gift to baseball. He’d probably bat .600 or something.
Sure, but the competition wasn't worse in the 1960s
It makes a lot more sense to me to follow my eye test than to believe that Neifi Perez would have been a star in the 1950s.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 11, 2011 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Without running analysis
why wouldn’t it be worse? Without doing one bit of research we know the game now represents the greatest talents out of Venezuela, Japan, Korea, Curaçao etc. Just the pool we draw from would lead me to believe top to bottom it has to be better. Not even thinking about how ballplayers now are all f/t ballplayers conditioning year round
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Fewer teams, fewer sports
Agreed on the conditioning
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 12, 2011 1:02 AM PST up reply actions
Here are some links to studies
We can see that the standard deviation for team wins is no greater in the 1990s compared to the 1970s
Ditto standard deviation for player performance
Nor is population per player much different
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 12, 2011 1:37 AM PST up reply actions
or rather those are interesting studies
I wrote the reply after reading the pop per player one :)
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I agree, over his career, lynn nolan ryan was 12% better than the average pitcher
snark aside, Ryan walked a ton of batters.
A quick (mostly meaningless) search on FG finds him 47th in FIP for pitchers (over 1500 innings) from 71-79. I get that that is totally arbitrary, and the like*, but it illustrates my point. he was OK for many of the years he would have been in his prime. he was very good longer than most has gaudy strike out numbers (4.67 k/bb though) but he was in my opinion, good, not the best.
*Make it 1700 innings and he is 4th behind Vida blue, Tom seaver and HOFer Fred Norman.
I am only pretty on the outside
dannycakes can also be called "hipsterbot"
I think the K's make him a HOF caliber pitcher no doubt
Strikeouts as danmerqury alluded to are pure pitcher beating hitter straight up. And he did that over parts of four decades
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Well, when he wasn't striking guys out,
then he must’ve been giving up an awful-lot of hits, because he lost a helluva lot of games. And most weren’t of the 2-1, or 3-2 variety.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
No, walks were his problem, not hits.
He led the league 12 times in least hits allowed per 9 innings. Obviously, Ryan was an incredible thrower; he racked up amazing strikeout numbers. But his reputation when I was growing up was as a guy with a big ego whose lack of control held back both him and his teams. Later in his career, he became a much more well-rounded pitcher (and still collected a ton of strikeouts).
A great pitcher for sure, well deserving of the HOF (and his longevity was incredible), but not one I’d count among the very best pitchers ever.
by andyinfremont on Feb 11, 2011 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
I should add...
…that the seven no-hitters are an amazing accomplishment. On any given day, Ryan could be a shut-down stud. But there were also a lot of days where his high-walk rate caused his club to lose.
by andyinfremont on Feb 11, 2011 7:43 PM PST up reply actions
When he left the Angels via free agency...
…the Angels’ GM said (I’m paraphrasing), “We’ll just get two 8-7 pitchers to replace him.”.
Without getting into the “wins aren’t a good measuring stick” angle, what he meant was that Ryan wasn’t as valuable to a winning team as his insane stats and K-rate would suggest.
Now, was his comment sour grapes at having lost him to another team? Yeah, I’m sure in part, but I do think his comment was at least partly accurate.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
I agree with this completely.
I’ve always thought Ryan was overrated. Flashes of greatness, no doubt. But, not really consistently intimidating. I think he also benefited from being able to stay healthy, thus allowing him to rack up great accumulated stats.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
Nice argument....not one that I particularly like as a Catfish fan, but still.....
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
Good ol' devo would have been proud.
“Catfish Hunter really wasn’t all that good.” you didn’t mean to type that, right?
I said it, I meant it, and I’ll stand by it.
Catfish was a workhorse – he pitched a lot of innings – and he had three fantastic seasons ‘72, ’74 and ’75 (the first two with the A’s). Over the other twelve years of his career, though, he posted a below average era. He was a heck of a mid-rotation caliber pitcher – a guy who would take the ball every fourth day, rest the ‘pen and keep the offense in the game – but, for most of his career, he simply wasn’t a top-line pitcher.
Hunter was good – but he wasn’t that good.
Catfish Hunter did not have a HOF caliber career in terms of productivity and, frankly, it wasn’t even close. But he was one of the stars of his time, a much beloved player who was one of the key players you think of when you think 1970s baseball. So there’s nothing wrong with him being there.
I'm here to talk about the past.
I would love to see how Dave Stewart's "best" years look through these eyes.
BTW, nice post, dwishinsky.
I'm here to talk about the past.
not that I could doa complete analysis.
but Mike Moore and Floyd Bannister had better WAR as contemporaries.
I LOOOOOVE Stewart, but I’d guess all sorts of extended SABR arguments don’t help him.
(Dar Haren already has more WAR)
Nick Swisher is handsome.
Between 87-90 Stewart was amazing
The problem was his career went from 1978-1995… :-/
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if we're talking just his starts against Clemens those years
He’s HOF for me.
Do you have a SABR analysis for those years for Stew?
Nick Swisher is handsome.
If you look at Stewart using similar metrics to those I used with Catfish
He was good but not exceptional even those four seasons. His fWAR (18.6) during those four seasons was 9th out of the 41 pitchers with at least 750 IP. K/9 (6.09) was 16th out of 41. His BB/9 (3.11) was 29th out of 41 and his FIP (3.49) was 15th. But wins he was #1 with 84, 2nd was Clemens and Welch at 76. I think its safe to say both Welch and Stewart were like Catfish aided by being on a phenomenal team.
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Good topic and well researched wishy
I would agree with Uncle Leo at the top…it’s the Hall of Fame not Stats, and in that era, Catfish was a bonifide star, a big game pitcher and part of championships. I also agree that if we went by stats alone, he probably shouldn’t go in, but you have to think of the Hall in the same terms as umpiring: the human element of the game. And it’s what makes baseball unpredictable. Catfish got in because he was popular and famous…Hall of Fame. The writers and the public loved the guy, hence, he is in.
Waiting for mikev to write my new sigline
This argument has been made before
See the quotes posted above by 67MARQUEZ. I think it’s fair to say that Catfish ranks as one of the “less great” HOF pitchers. However, I also think it’s also an example of how statistics alone don’t necessarily measure greatness. Catfish was an unquestioned star, a team leader, and a pitcher that other teams feared for many years. Other factors in Catfish’s favor also seem to have gotten little mention. Not all merit equal weight, but they do speak to what his generation thought of him:
- Eight All-Star selections
- Threw a perfect game in 1968. (FYI: The attendance in Oakland that night was just 6,298)
- Helped take the A’s from a laughingstock in the mid-60s to a powerhouse in the early-70’s
- Holds the mark for most complete games in a season since 1974, with 30.
- Was one of just three pitchers to win 200 games by the time they were 31 years old, joining Cy Young and Christy Mathewson. (Career ended at age 33.)
- Hit .350 in 1971 in 103 ABs. (OK, I just threw that in for fun.)
- Won 21 or more games five times in a row (just the fourth American League pitcher to do so, and the most recent).
- Was an incredible workhorse — 10 consecutive seasons of 234+ innings pitched (eight seasons over 250 innings pitched).
- Was a strong playoff pitcher with the A’s (7-2 over four seasons).
As for Rick Reuschel, that’s a great example of how statistics like WAR can make a decent pitcher look great. Reuschel had a few really good seasons scattered over his 19-year career, and he was a workhorse (especially in the first half of his career) but he was never particularly dominating or feared, nor was he ever considered one of the greats of his generation. Reuschel was also mostly horrible the few times he pitched in the playoffs. He didn’t manage to get the 5% of the vote needed in 1997 to stay on the HOF ballot, which I think was a fair assessment of his HOF qualifications.
by andyinfremont on Feb 11, 2011 6:31 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
This is an excellent example of how bullet points can make a decent pitcher look great
and greater than a better pitcher
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 11, 2011 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh the irony of saying statistics don't measure greatness....and then using a bunch of statistics to prove your point...
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 11, 2011 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't say that
I said “statistics alone don’t necessarily measure greatness.” But for the stat-heads in the room, I attempted to quantify how his greatness might be measured.
Analysis (statistical and otherwise) of HOF worthiness needs to go well beyond ERA+ and WAR.
by andyinfremont on Feb 11, 2011 7:51 PM PST up reply actions
You're right. Let's go beyond ERA+ and WAR.......to Wins and All Star selections.
Your comment would’ve been perfectly fine if you had just stuck to your thesis ("statistics alone don’t necessarily measure greatness"). Unfortunately, it would’ve only been composed of two sentences:
Catfish was an unquestioned star, a team leader, and a pitcher that other teams feared for many years.
Helped take the A’s from a laughingstock in the mid-60s to a powerhouse in the early-70’s
and not a lot of people would’ve taken you seriously.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Feb 11, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is, you've totally misinterpreted my "thesis"
The “thesis” of my post was that Hunter deserves to be the HOF. That statistics alone can be insufficient to measure greatness was something I noted because some people were posting as if ERA+ and WAR tell the whole story and the conversation can end there. But making such an observation does not oblige me to focus thereafter on non-statistical measurements (although I gave a few examples), nor to avoid mentioning different statistics that have been overlooked by others.
by andyinfremont on Feb 11, 2011 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think the thing analysis shows is
that he didn’t carry the teams. He may have in a sort of metaphorical way but the bullpen was PHENOMINAL giving him a lot of those wins. He oftentimes paled in comparison to his teammates like Blue, Holtzman and Guidry because he was the #1. I understand why he is in the HOF. But really the question is should he be? Just cuz he was on winning ballcubs doesn’t do it for me. And the all-star selections like the Cy Young votes are more indicative of his popularity rather than his ability
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You don't win 200 games by the age of 31 if you're not great, IMO
Catfish was undoubtedly helped by being on some great teams. But if it were easy to win that many games at such a young age, far more than three guys would have done it.
As for carrying teams, I’m not sure any individual pitcher does that. It is, after all, a team game where the starter only pitches every 4-5 days (in Hunter’s time). Still, on the A’s, Hunter was the unquestioned ace of the staff, having been with the club since 1965. Blue had a fabulous 1971 season, but Hunter surpassed him in ‘72-’74. In the four full seasons they pitched together, Catfish was 88-35, while Blue was 67-42. Holtzman had the best two years of his career in ‘72-’73, but in the three years he pitched with Catfish in Oakland, Holtzman was 59-41 while Hunter was 67-24.
Holtzman and Blue had the same defense, the same bullpen, and the same offense as Hunter, yet in the category that mattered most — wins and losses — Hunter was clearly better. So I don’t see how Hunter paled in comparison to either one. And if anything, the A’s bullpen helped Blue and Holtzman more, because they threw fewer complete games:
Blue complete games (‘71-74): 24/5/13/12 (54) vs 16/16/11/23 (66) for Hunter
Holtzman complete games (’72-74): 16/16/9 (41) vs 16/11/23 (50) for Hunter
In 43% of his starts, Hunter didn’t need the bullpen at all.
Finally, I disagree that All-Star pitchers or Cy Young awards are based much (if at all) on popularity. All-Star’s chosen by the fans (position player starters), sure, but not those who are chosen by the players/coaches. Likewise, the members of the Baseball Writers Association of America choose the Cy Young award, which makes it fairly impartial.
by andyinfremont on Feb 12, 2011 12:36 AM PST up reply actions
Wins and Popularity
In 1998, Rick Helling went 20-7 with an ERA of 4.41. He went 20-7 because the Rangers scored 5.3 runs on average in his starts.
In 1992, Jim Abbott went 7-15 with an ERA of 2.77. He went 7-15 because the Angels scored 2.5 runs on average in his starts.
I think we can both agree if we were able to trade “Rick Helling of 1998” for “Jim Abbott of 1992” their win-loss records would have looked much different on their new high or low-scoring clubs. Thats why wins don’t matter. They don’t tell us what Abbott or Helling did, they tell us more about the teams. The Angels didn’t score weren’t particularly good, the Rangers did score and won more ballgames.
The complete games are amazing, I agree but that doesn’t make someone Hall worthy.
In terms of All-Stars or Cy Young being a popularity contest, I mean come on? Jason Varitek in 2008 was not elected (Joe Mauer was) But he was selected by the managers/players but he was hitting .218/.299/.354. I don’t think I’d have to look too far in the American League in July of 08 to find a better catcher. While I think Cy Young voting has gotten better, there have been (and will always be) times that the best doesn’t win. Catfish Hunter only won ONE. That to me again doesn’t make someone HOF worthy. I mean we aren’t sticking Jack McDowell in there either.
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You're arguments keep changing as I shoot them down
You compared Hunter to Blue and Holtzman, claiming that Hunter “oftentimes paled in comparison”, yet in fact he clearly out performed them overall. Yes, comparing win totals of players on different teams can be a bit problematic at times, but it’s not problematic at all when comparing players on the same team, especially over 3-4 years. Regardless of how he got it done, Hunter won more, loss less, had more complete games, and was the acknowledged ace/staff leader, as compared to Blue and Holzman. You were simply wrong on this point.
As for Helling and Abbott, congrats, you’ve found two cases out of thousands to “prove” that “wins don’t matter” (an utterly ludicrous statement). Hunter’s ERA as a full-time starter ranged from 3.81 to 2.04, so I think we can ignore any inference that Hunter was ever like Helling. And while the A’s offense wasn’t as bad as the Angels of 1992 (at least when Abbott was pitching), it was never as good as the Rangers of 1998. Over the 10 years Hunter pitched with the A’s, the team averaged just under 4 runs a game. (I don’t have time to manually calculate the data for just Hunter’s starts; maybe there’s a page somewhere that has it?)
Your point about the All Star game and Jason Varitek has nothing to do with popularity. It was nepotism. He was picked by his manager Terry Francona, and I agree he was totally undeserving. But as far as I can tell, Catfish was never picked due to nepotism. In 1966 and 1967, I’m guessing he was the only representative for the K.C. A’s. In ‘66 his numbers weren’t that good, and he didn’t pitch in the game. But in ‘67 he pitched 5 innings of a 15 inning All Star game, allowing one run and taking the loss. (Now *that’s* an All Star performance.) On the other hand, he didn’t get selected in 1971, when he had an excellent season, and all his other selections seem justified. So his All Star appearances/snubs pretty much even out.
Regarding the Cy Young award, I agree there are times when the best pitcher doesn’t win, or when it’s an exceedingly hard decision among several pitchers. But the fact that Catfish finished in the top-5 four times still tells us he was extremely good. And I’m fairly sure he would have been nominated in 1971, except that was the year his teammate Vida Blue won.
You might also consider that quite a few HOF pitchers never won the Cy Young award (which started in ’56 as a MLB award, and in ’67 switched to one for each league): Bert Blyleven, Rich Gossage, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Jim Bunning, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Juan Marichal. Yep, Hunter has a leg up on all of them.
Lastly, your Jack McDowell comment has little merit. My argument is not — and could in no way be construed as being — that all Cy Young award winners deserve to be in the HOF. It’s simply one factor among many. McDowell did finish in the top-5 for the Cy Young twice, but he also had nearly 100 fewer wins, a much higher ERA and WHIP, was terrible in the post season, never threw a no-hitter, and only made three All-Star games, among many other ways he fails to compare to Hunter. You’ll have to give much better examples than that to make your case.
by andyinfremont on Feb 13, 2011 12:23 AM PST up reply actions
isn't a little funny that the guy claiming that we should judge a pitcher on wins
also called Hunter’s 67 All Star game an “All Star performance” when it led to Hunter losing the game after giving up only 1 run?
You don't need a religion, you have the A's. - My girlfriend
by designatedforassignment on Feb 13, 2011 2:02 AM PST up reply actions
Wins are important, but by no means of exclusive importance
I’m sorry you were unable to understand that from my posts.
by andyinfremont on Feb 13, 2011 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
My examples were more than enough
Even if I chose more extreme cases or less extreme cases those two alone prove wins aren’t a reflection of the pitcher. There is nothing else to prove. As long as wins are a reflection of aspects outside of the pitcher’s control, they don’t have much value. A guy on a good team will get more wins. A great pitcher on a worse team will get fewer: here’s another example Felix Hernandez, 2010. There are thousands simply because wins don’t hold value.
With respect to confusing who is better Holtzman, Blue etc I said oftentimes, meaning Hunter wasn’t consistently better nor was he consistently worse.
My comment regarding Vartiek has everything to do with popularity: “The player who has stepped up the most for the Red Sox in the wake of Ortiz’s injury is right fielder J.D. Drew, and the left-handed hitter with the sweet swing was informed on Sunday that he is an All-Star for the first time. Drew was voted in on the Player Ballot, as were ace closer Jonathan Papelbon and veteran catcher Jason Varitek.” That is available here on MLB’s coverage of the 2008 ASG. I’m aware of how All-Stars are selected and made sure that my example conformed to the popularity versus quality argument.
I’m totally fine with HOFers not winning the CYA or winning it, it doesn’t matter in the end. A good pitcher doesn’t have to be the best in any given year. If someone was second best for 20 straight years I am not going to make the argument he is worthless because he wasn’t ever number one. But at the same time, I’m not going to base something solely on wins (outside of his control), Cy Young voting (popularity contests to a degree) and All-Star Game appearances (absolutely clear popularity contests).
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Repeating yourself doesn't prove your points
With one exception, you’re adding nothing new here, just some variations on the opinions you’ve already stated and failed to support adequately.
You are right about Varitek; I’d forgotten the “Player ballot” (which actually includes coaches, managers and players) was added in 2003. I stand corrected on that. But that has nothing to do with Hunter — when he played, the All Star managers selected all of the pitchers. So your original point that Hunter’s selections were about “popularity” is still incorrect.
by andyinfremont on Feb 13, 2011 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
If my history is correct...
…fan voting was discontinued from 1958 to 1969, so all pitchers and position players were selected.
Not that that affects your points either way, just thought I’d throw that little tidbit in.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
I fail to understand how I failed to support my argument.
My argument is that wins aren’t a reflection of pitchers. I provided an example that you threw out with
“As for Helling and Abbott, congrats, you’ve found two cases out of thousands to "prove" that "wins don’t matter" (an utterly ludicrous statement)”
I mean there isn’t much more to say, if you’re going to say somehow a pitchers W-L record matters, I wonder what you thought of Felix Hernandez’ Cy Young Award? Wins for a TEAM matter. Obviously, the object of the game is winning. But a win for a pitcher is very different from a win for a team. Its pure fiction really. Bob Hendley pitched a one-hitter allowing one run on September 9, 1965. He got the loss in that game because Sandy Koufax pitched a perfect game opposite him. Most pitchers who throw a one-run, one-hitter will get a win. Hendley didn’t. Hendley went 0-for-2 so you could perhaps blame him in part, but really it was because the Cubs failed to score against the Dodgers that he got the loss, not because he did anything to lose the game.
You’re going to argue that is aberration etc, I see it as wins don’t actually tell us anything.
I agree that Catfish Hunter is a better pitcher than Rick Helling, any day of the year. Yet you write:
“Hunter’s ERA as a full-time starter ranged from 3.81 to 2.04, so I think we can ignore any inference that Hunter was ever like Helling”
I never said he was like Helling in talent, but they are similar in that they benefited from playing in front of good offenses. When Catfish Hunter got his 25 wins and Cy Young Award he made 41 starts, which is incredible. But had Helling kept up his pace in 1998 and somehow made 41 starts he’d have been at 24.84 wins, round that to 25. So if you’re making the arguments that wins make the pitcher, why is it that Hunter in 1974 and Helling in 1998 aren’t on par with one another? You’ll argue Hunter’s ERA was lower and Helling’s higher, and I agree with that. But then you completely discount ERA+, or his K/9 or BB/9 etc. If wins are all that matter, Hunter of 1974 and Helling of 1998 are equals. I’m saying theres way more to that, and that the W-L doesn’t tell even a smidgen of the story.
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I don't discount other stats
But other stats don’t change the fact that wins are an important measurement. I have never said that wins are all that matter, and in fact I went out of my way in prior posts to note other statistics and factors that, in the totality of his career, make Hunter a legitimate HOFer. These types of inaccurate statements on your part indicate that you’re not really reading what I write, and are just arguing for the sake of blindly defending your position.
I understand that you don’t think wins are important, and you have noted a couple of loosely related anecdotes to support your belief, which despite your protestations prove absolutely nothing. Your logic rests on the flawed assumption that if wins are not a valid measure in a small number of cases/situations (like those you cite), they are not a valid measure in any cases. Never mind that by that measure all statistics would fail, since all statistics have shortcomings and outliers. But since you can’t see that, there’s really nothing left to discuss.
by andyinfremont on Feb 13, 2011 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
I really take exception to what you say
Because, in my piece I had a whole host of statistics. You wrote: “You don’t win 200 games by the age of 31 if you’re not great, IMO” I’m saying that means squat. And we can agree to disagree on that. I am able to see that stats have shortcomings, but where are Catfish’s key stats that show his greatness? Strikeouts? Nope. Control? Nope. His ERA was nothing spectacular. He was a good but not great pitcher. I mean the one thing that stands out is wins which I acknowledge. About the only statistic you provide that is really amazing is his complete games statistic, which I think is a very big testament to how good a pitcher and how well conditioned he was. I am not saying he is garbage, I am saying he is un Hall-worthy but looking at his complete games he led the league in 1975 with 30 (which is a shocking and amazing number). His WAR in certain years was impressive, but career among every pitcher ever he is 195th. His WHIP is fine, his BABIP as I said was out of this world. Looking at the leaderboard for things though he is nowhere to be found.
I am an open-minded guy, you may not think so but I am, and I apologize if you feel I’ve become sidetracked on the wins, but tell me what I need to look at to see that Catfish is Hall-Worthy.
You write the All-Star Game selections – to me that doesn’t say anything about someone’s ability really. But fine, he was an All-Star a lot.
Throwing perfect game amazing, Dallas Braden wont go into the HOF, neither will Len Barker or Tom Browning or Don Larsen.
He helped the A’s go from laughingstock… sure so did Reggie Jackson, Sal Bando, Bert Campaneris, Vida Blue, etc, etc being a part of a championship team doesn’t really make you a HOFer just ask Moose Skowron.
The wins by 31. I won’t get into wins we both know where we stand there.
The hitting I give you, he hits like that as a f/t starter I first ballot HOF him! haha
21 wins five years in a row. We know where we stand there.
Workhorse – I agree wholeheartedly, but don’t feel just being able to throw a lot of innings makes you a HOFer. Quantity over quality. Though especially in comparison to today’s guys pitching over 300+ innings of quality ball is astounding.
Strong playoff pitcher – you demonstrate that by his record – no use getting into that argument. I think he wasn’t anything exception really, 4.8 K/9, 2.4 BB/9 but did he put his team in a position to win absolutely, so I will give you that. Big game pitcher.
All said and done, yes he is very good. But comparing him to his contemporaries he falls flat. I just don’t see this intangibles when the stats scream out solid starter carried by an amazing offense.
We just have to agree to disagree but I do appreciate you debating with me and I am open to other opinions.
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You need to look at the accomplishments in total...
…rather than dismissing each one just because a particular outstanding trait/stat does not, in and of itself, make Hunter HOF worthy. I’ve tried to make this point clear, but you continue to minimize most of his accomplishments using this flawed logic, while damning him based on things like K/9 and BB/9, which I do not see as being particularly good measures of greatness. I do not subscribe to the notion that you must have a high strikeout rate to be a great pitcher, or to have a great performance in a particular game. Strikeouts are sexy, but by no means essential.
As for how he compares to his contemporaries, I’ve demonstrated that he was the best pitcher on the A’s staff unless you can prove that he got far better run/defensive support over the 3-4 year period as compared to Blue and Holtzman.
Also, you keep saying the A’s offense was amazing during Hunter’s 10 years. It wasn’t. Overall it grades out a little above average. Even in the best years it wasn’t great, which is proven to some degree by the fact that Reggie is the only part of that offense in the HOF (Billy Williams was there in 1975, but he was a fading player, and no longer a star by any means). There were some other solid hitters, but none were even close to HOF quality. So Hunter got some benefit there, but not nearly as much as you imply. The A’s of the early-to-mid 70’s were more a product of their pitching than their hitting.
In short, I appreciate your opinion, but many of your criticisms of Hunter are overstated or not especially relevant.
by andyinfremont on Feb 18, 2011 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
After he left the A's in '74
Oakland won 98 games in ’75, more than in any of their World Series-winning seasons. Just saying.
I'm here to talk about the past.
"feared" does really mean much to me as a HOF credential
people feared Sam McDowell
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people fear the beard....
But probably only because it’s full of lice. Not HOF credentials by any means.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Feb 11, 2011 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
Catfish is one of the softest HOF inductions ever
I’m sure the “there’s more to greatness than stats” people here enjoy that argument equally when it is used to pump up Yankees and Red Sox players.
"Rollins helps them with the small ball when he's not in the lineup." - Joe Morgan
Andy Pettitte and Jim Rice for HOF!
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 12, 2011 2:14 AM PST up reply actions
Don Mattingly and Dwight Evans should be in!
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IMO: Mattingly, yes. Evans, no. Pettitte...
…maybe. I wouldn’t be offended either way if he got in or didn’t get in.
Rice is in.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
Evans made the HOM and Mattingly hasn't so far. Rice probably won't
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 12, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Rice was inducted in 2009. Evans has not.
I’m presuming HOM meant HOF.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
Very intereating post. Thanks!
I do have one problem with your semi-disagreement with Posnanski:
No number of on-the-other-hand Hunter statistics can raise doubt about Posnanski’s claim that Catfish was “unquestionably the shakiest” HOF pitcher born in the last century without your discussing some other HOFer who might be more shakey.
Posnanski’s claim is comparative.
If Hunter isn’t unquestionably the shakiest choice, that suggests that there is some other pitcher in the Hall whose selection was arguably shakier. This post is missing a suggestion of who that potentially shakier HOFer might be.
There is no "i" in Teamocil. At least not where you'd think.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Feb 12, 2011 5:47 AM PST reply actions
I agree with that.
I really was more looking at whether or not it was shaky by itself. Perhaps I will delve further in and see how others shape up. It’d be interesting for sure.
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I am sure that there are many HOFers that can be challenged
…based upon which team, era and relative competition that they were being compared with. It sickens me to take a late great pitcher from a previous era who was dominant when compared to others and challenge where he fits in the HOF.
Catfish Hunter was one of those pitchers. I won’t get into his stats, because we can all analyze them ad nausea. Anyone who experienced his abilities wasn’t crying afoul when he got elected because he deserved it according to the consensus of the BBWA vote at the time. There are plenty of players that we may feel are more deserving or less deserving but this process isn’t perfect. They get it mostly right and I am okay with that. Certain stats carry more weight than others but this feels a little like grave digging to me and in a sense a little disrespectful.
Let’s just enjoy the fact that one of our great players got in and let Joe Posnanski go suck on another sour lemon and find someone else to challenge. I frankly don’t appreciate this type of writing.
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