No, I Said I Was On Sabbatical Until The Cows Came Home
by Nico on Dec 9, 2011 8:48 PM PST
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PrintAnd we just got a guy named Cowgill, so there. Sorry to be so bad at being absent, but it's hard not to weigh in with my (clearly precious) thoughts on a major trade: Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow to the Diamondbacks for Jarrod Parker, Collin Cowgill, and Ryan Cook.
To put the trade in context, I have generally fallen on the side of "Cahill supporter" in that I think Cahill is better than his 2011 season -- one in which I suspect his curveball was somewhat affected by a lingering finger injury -- and that I think his 2010 season, though not easily repeatable, was also not a fluke. I have often been quick to point out that Cahill's minor league career mirrored Brandon Webb's quite well with the one exception that Cahill put up his numbers 2 years younger at each level.
However, despite my belief in Cahill as a quality starting pitcher, I can see this trade working out to be a very good one for Oakland and if you'll jump with me I'll explain my reasoning.
Jarrod Parker, the key to the deal, has a chance to be a better pitcher than Cahill and, by nature of being completely unproven, has a chance to be a total bust. If you average out all the Jarrod Parkers who have tested their "top10 pitching prospect if he's healthy" pedigree at the big league level, from the Dan Meyers to the David Prices, you probably average about a Cahill.
The reality is that if Parker should turn out to be exactly as good as Cahill, the A's have already won the trade because Parker is, of course, much cheaper. He may turn out to be better, he may turn out to be worse, he may turn out to be about the same. But any time you have a 50-50 chance to win the trade on one of three players alone, you're off to a pretty good start.
This was alluded to in one of the first thread's comments, but there are similarities between Colin Cowgill and no, not David DeJesus, not Ryan Sweeney, but rather Mark Kotsay. Kotsay was coveted and followed by the A's for years before Oakland acquired him, played CF, and did not wow with his physical tools so much as his "ability to play better than his raw tools would suggest." If Cowgill is so much as "David DeJesus but a solid CFer," he's a good player, and if he's anything like Mark Kotsay was in his mid 20s then he's a steal.
Again, Cowgill is a total unknown and could be a bust. That's the risk of dealing proven commodities for question marks. But if the A's have scouted right, they may be high-fiving in the backroom right now about getting the gifted Parker and the "Mark Ellis-like undervalued" Cowgill.
Ryan Cook looks to be about as exciting a piece as Dane Cook, so I won't say much about him other than to say, "Yeah I know he's part of the trade too." Same with Breslow: I have little to say about his inclusion other than "Pretty good pitcher, easily replaced, don't lose sleep."
Now the "bad" news. This trade reminds me a bit of the Tim Hudson deal: You get a pitcher who has ace potential who, arguably, could make the deal a good one by himself, plus two additional pieces that can only help. We all know how the Hudson trade turned out: The key centerpiece busted and the trade was, ultimately, a disaster. Such is the nature of trading good pitchers for question marks.
But the hope that the A's have done their homework, only were going to make a trade they wanted to make, and sought out Parker and Cowgill for good reason, gives me rise for some optimism. Don't get me wrong, though: I think Cahill has a bright future and while the A's may have made a good trade for them I don't doubt that Arizona has made a good trade for their "win now" needs. It's not a slam dunk for the A's by any stretch -- but on the face of it, I see reason to give Beane and Co. the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing.
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Nico's "sabbaticals" are more like Brett Favre "retirements"
But I’m glad you’re back.
by Menechino_Incarnate on Dec 9, 2011 8:50 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
could call it a nap?
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
More troubling is that
the last three players I’ve interviewed were Cahill, Breslow, and Braden. I really need to stop interviewing people.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
please do
or, start interviewing opposing players!
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 8:58 PM PST up reply actions
Or Eric Patterson
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
is he even playing still?
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
When he tracked fly balls
he looked like he was playing still.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
what about those 2 HRs he hit that one day?!
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
cahill finger injury
what type of finger injury, which finger, and why do you believe he did have an injured finger.
Ray Fosse thinks Pete Rose is a prick......
Right index finger, IIRC. I believe it because it was reported with quotes from Cahill and the A's.
Someone better at it than me can undoubtedly find the link.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hudson trade is a fair comp.
Though if it’s 50/50 odds, this one should go our way. I think this is another one of Beane’s branded moves, it doesn’t hurt us much if the deal busts because we wouldn’t have been competitive anyway, but if we win we could win big. I personally like Parker a lot and Cowgill is solid, I liked what I saw from him this year.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Hudson was the A's ace and undisputed staff leader
Cahill was still unproven, with an all star season followed by a disappointing one, but so young that the jury was still out.
by OaklandSi on Dec 10, 2011 5:19 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
By the way, I should note that
I’m not suggesting Cowgill and Kotsay should be compared as “defensive CFers,” just that the A’s may have scouted Cowgill as a “Kotsay-like (and Ellis-like) gem” and if they’re right it could make this a very good trade.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The difference is that Kotsay and Ellis were good defenders at somewhat tough positions
Cowgill isn’t supposed to be that.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
Sure but he's not that talented
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
I'll reserve my judgement until I see him play....maybe we'll be surprised! Beane has wanted this guy for a while.
AN Tailgate = Euphemism for food porn.
Just like Erubiel Durazo and Conor Jackson!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
DDJ is supposed to be the upside of Adam Eaton who is supposed to be
a slightly richer man’s Cowgill
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
Kotsay vs. Cowgill
Kotsay, 6 feet, 210 lbs; Cowgill, 5’9", 185 lb.
Maybe the better comparison is Matt Stairs, 5’9", 200 lb.
ooo
I’d take another Matt Stairs :-)
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I'm 5'9" and 185 (cough) lb. Can I play CF for the A's?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
I'm sorry, but we're only considering OFers named Sweeney at this time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sorry, I'm 5"9" (cough) and 185 lbs, and I have the job already
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Do we have any NON-smokers applying for the position?
The coughs worry me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's just a seasonal thing.
He’ll be fine by Spring Training.
by LoneStranger on Dec 10, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
And on the DL by early April
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."
BIlly Beane and the Quest for the Holy Grails
….all of which seemed to be located in Arizona.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Not really
He’s significantly older than Cahill!
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
But younger than Breslow
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
Point is, what you see is effectively what you get with him
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Yes the value obtained in the trade is arguably better than the value given up
but the strategy of incremental upgrades (if you believe Parker is an upgrade over Cahill), and trading for stopgaps like Cowgill and Cook is really puzzling.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 11:21 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not even convinced of the truth of your subject line
See below.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Neither am I. I was just saying that even if you concede that point
it’s still puzzling.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:09 AM PST up reply actions
Do you think it's possible that Cowgill's hamate bone injury
affected him in his initial minor league seasons? The A’s obviously think highly of Cowgill, having drafted him, tried to get him in the Ziggy trade, and making him a pretty key “swing the deal as good or not” piece in the trade of one of their few real chips. That all makes me think that either the A’s recognize something in him that hasn’t shown up in the “track record” or that the A’s have no clue about how to evaluate position players.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I hope that Cowgill's coming into his own now and will be good, but
if they A’s really thought he was all that great, why did they pick Jason Christian over him? Why didn’t they sign him when they picked him in the 27th round?
It seems more like they liked him in a “good low round value” kind of way rather than a “he’ll be a starter for us” kind of way….sort of the way I have no objection to taking Rashun Dixon in the 10th round because he could conceivably learn how to play baseball and be an asset, but I wouldn’t trade anything of value for him since it’s highly unlikely that he’ll do that.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
That I don't know -- I don't follow the draft closely enough to say.
The only things I can think of are that maybe when they drafted Cristian they had reason to believe Cowgill wouldn’t sign with OAK again? Or maybe they really liked Cristian? Or maybe Cowgill’s hamate bone injury had come up?
I really don’t know exactly why the A’s like him but I’d guess they believe he has excellent “learn the game” skills and can continue improving in his mid-20s where most prospects don’t. But they had about this level of belief in Cunningham and it didn’t work out.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah I know.
The track record with “position player man crushes” is…spotty.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
at least swish worked out...
But he was a touted prospect.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 10:37 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I believer he is talking just about the "gem" aspect of the deal
not the particulars of why he is a gem
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
OK, but what I'm saying is that Kotsay and Ellis were "gems" because they had a
true plus tool. Cowgill doesn’t have that.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is...
A lot of what you can read from non-A’s sources doubt his ability to play CF. So the A’s have to be smarter then EVERYONE else.
And before anyone thinks that’s a given…
If they’re so smart, why haven’t they finished above .500 since 2006?
The monster at the end of this blog.
They're lulling everyone into a false sense of security?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:27 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
True, he may be a RFer in a CFer's body
In that regard, he’s probably very comparable to DeJesus. I was probably unclear in my post: The comparisons I see with Kotsay are not defensive or even necessarily position, but more “a guy we’ve followed for years because we see him as someone who plays better than his ‘frame’ or ‘tools’ would suggest.” Then again, the A’s seemed to like Sweeney’s frame and Taylor’s tools, so…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I liked DeJesus
I thought he was a solid player.
And I liked that the A’s gave up crap to acquire him.
Cowgill may end up a solid player and all it took was Trevor Cahill to acquire him.
That’s messing with the recipe!
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'd still like to see some of these non-A's sources that think he can't play CF
The most recent Sickles article on him doesn’t really suggest this at all. It suggests that he is more of a 4th OF’er because of his bat and size, not his defense.
Not that I doubt you, I just haven’t seen what you are talking about
I posted it in the other thread but here it is again
Matthew Haas in Baseball America’s 2011 Prospect Handbook
He probably won’t have….enough speed to play center field every day…profiles better as a versatile fourth outfielder
Goldstein did not rank Cowgill in his 2011 Top 20 Diamondback prospects despite a system he called an ugly combination. None of the comments brought up Cowgill.
Sickels ranks him below Adam Eaton whom he calls a future superb fourth outfielder
I don’t see anyone credible saying he’s a future starting CF
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
OK thanks.
That Sickles article seems to suggest that the main problem with Cowgill is his size and the fact that he’s a righty. Sickles seems to think he has both a good arm and good speed.
Is there anything else out there saying Cowgill won’t cut it defensively?
He sounds a bit, defensively, like DDJ and Sweeney:
Can play CF adequately or can play a COF well. That’s a good player if he’s hitting and a 4th OFer if he’s not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Basically yes.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:58 PM PST up reply actions
Reminds me of Aaron Cunningham
Except he isn’t flanked by Chris Carter and Carlos Gonzalez type guys, so it’s even more disappointing!
He seems better defensively and worse offensively than Cunningham though.
But the same low ceiling 4th OF in the end.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
Oh gawd I hope not!
to get another Cunningham (4th OF) and Sean Gallagher for Cahill would be a monumental fail on Billy’s part.
Re-sign Josh Willingham now!
by sf drift king on Dec 9, 2011 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
I called him "CowJack" on Twitter
In reference to a Conor Jackson comp I saw. But, the more I read about him, the more he looks like Andres Torres, but worse.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
From FanGraphs prospect guy Marc Hulet
For me, Cowgill is more of a platoon outfielder than a future starter. The 25-year-old appeared in 37 games for Arizona in 2011 and produced a wOBA of just .270. He has below-average power for a corner outfielder and doesn’t have the range to play center field on a regular basis.
the 37 game conclusion
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
right, not that every other baseball looker person hasn't said the same thing
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
he has good speed though
30/33 sb
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 10:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
And 8 triples in 98 games at Reno last year
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Thanks.
I disagree with your reading of that Sickles article though. He says that Cowgill would fit nicely into a 4th OF role, but he should get the chance to start every day. To me, that’s different than saying he’s too poor of a defender to cut it in CF, especially when Sickle’s main knock is that Cowgill is small and is a righty. I read that as saying Cowgill probably won’t hit well enough to be an everyday player, and that’s it.
I don’t know, if he had even one thing bad to say about Cowgill defensively, I might agree with you. But he didn’t.
Are there any other scouts that think Cowgill is not gonna cut it in CF?
It's not that he has anything bad to say about Cowgill defensively, it's that he
never says he’d be a “true centerfielder” or “has enough speed to stay in CF” or anything else like that. By calling him
a near-perfect fourth outfielder……[or] a regular in a David DeJesus-type way if all goes well
as he does in his 2011 book, he’s saying that he’s can play CF, but is better suited defensively for a corner the way DeJesus is.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
Does he really have to say "a true centerfielder" for Cowgill to be useful in CF?
I see what you are saying, I just don’t see any reason to read into that statement one way or another.
Do you have anything else besides Sickles and Haas?
DeJesus did play 500+ games in CF, so it's not like he could never play
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's about what I'm thinking for the A's hopes for Cowgill
If they could get “DeJesus circa 2007-10” that’s a good find.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That would certainly be useful.
I keep asking about additional scouts because I keep seeing comments like “no one else thinks he’s a real CF but the A’s” yet I only see two sources, one of which doesn’t really say anything one way or the other (maybe he implies it) and the other source knocks Cowgill’s speed. To me, saying that no one else believes he is a true CF’er means that multiple scouts have said that pretty specifically, and I’d really like to read that analysis. I like learning about our shiny new toys :)
I'm not a big Marc Hulet fan, but he said this today about Cowgill
He has below-average power for a corner outfielder and doesn’t have the range to play center field on a regular basis.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:23 PM PST up reply actions
BTF regular Levski, one of their most visible Diamondback
fans said that
I think Cowgill can be a good centerfielder, and hit enough to be valuable there.
I think he’s pretty knowledgeable about the Diamondbacks FWIW.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:45 PM PST up reply actions
cromulent- is that a Catholic thing? my vocab only went up to the 16rh grade.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 10, 2011 9:15 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Cromulent:
The crom you didn’t want your friend to have to buy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Crom, I have never prayed to you before.
I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That’s what’s important! Valor pleases you, Crom… so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!
by LoneStranger on Dec 12, 2011 12:34 AM PST up reply actions
I can see it both ways
When I read “he can play all 3 OF positions,” I think the implied scouting is, “He can play two COF positions well or CF adequately.” On the flip side, he may have enough “CF tools” that if he learns/improves at all (e.g., better first step, better read) he could be solid there too.
And since Cowgill profiles as someone who maximizes his abilities, I have at least some hope that he could “develop into” a good CFer. But Sickels isn’t suggesting he’s there or ever will be when he says “he can play all 3 OF positions.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Whyever would that be???
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well if Cowgill is "Kotsay" like
then that means eventually he’ll have the hottest wife on the team!
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I don't know where to post this, so I'll just post it here and hope it's okay.
From Bob Nightengale’s Twitter:
Source: The #Athletics wanted Parker over Bauer to make deal #mlb
I can understand Oakland wanting Jarrod Parker over Tyler Skaggs or Archie Bradley, but Parker over Trevor Bauer? C’mon, now. There’s no way we said we’d take Parker over Bauer, right? Arizona wouldn’t let us have Bauer over Parker, right? Damn.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 8:59 PM PST reply actions
I read it as more of a
“nyaa, I would have rather had paker anyhow” kinda way
hey little girl
…want a cookie?
by ChickenStanley on Dec 9, 2011 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
FUCK THE HECK
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 9, 2011 9:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, gimme a TJS-rebounding prospect instead.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Actually, a TJS-rebounding pitcher isn't
necessarily a bad thing. Our guy has a brand new elbow while all the other guys have 23-year old elbows. Or he’ll never be the same again.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The elbow is the same age. It just used to be his ass.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL, touche.
That’s why I’m never trying his elbow macaroni salad.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Unless they changed the rules
Bauer couldn’t come to Oakland until next July. He could have been included as a PTBNL in a January trade but that’s about it.
Nightengale is also the guy who swore Parker wasn’t part of the deal ’cause AZ planned on making him their 5th starter next year.
Thus far he’s been an EPIC FAIL when discussing this trade.
The monster at the end of this blog.
i was able to watch bauer for 2 years
at UCLA and i would luuurrrrrv for us to get bauer instead of parker. HOWEVER, if i am the d’backs no way i’m trading bauer for cahill. overall i think parker + others is a fair shot for cahill…
my dback friend told me “you wanted parker for haren 4 years ago and now you finally get your wish,” to which i replied “and i hope in three years we will get bauer when we decide to trade brett anderson xD”
"you miss all the shots you don't take"
"the way to a man's heart is through his...*wink and point down*...stomach. well the way to a woman's heart? is through lying. for example, sure I thought that my ex-girlfriend's sister was way hotter than she was. But should I have told her that? Probably not."
by krazygoliath on Dec 10, 2011 1:19 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, sure
I’d read earlier that perhaps the A’s might have pried loose Bauer for Gio but never for Cahill.
by OaklandSi on Dec 10, 2011 5:22 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I heard Beane is planning to flip Cowgill to another team.
Looks like it’s going to be a “reverse Cowgill”
WHAT!??!?!?!?!?!?!
by true torture on Dec 9, 2011 9:03 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Whomp, whomp, whawwwwwwmp.
Anyway, Cowgill had a fantastic season last year in AAA. It will be interesting to watch him. Hopefully Parker pans out.
Honestly, for our firesale, we got rid of our talented starter who came off a down year and already signed an extension (lowers his value, especially for win-now teams). I think we got good value. I wish we got Bauer though. I watched him at UCLA he’s superb.
WHAT!??!?!?!?!?!?!
Cowgill did have a good year
but his BABIP was around .380.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
What would you expect it to be when he hit .354?
More of a concern if that high BABIP barely got him to .300
The concern would be,
“So what can we expect if his BABIP regresses a bit and he’s not in a great hitter’s park?” How much of his excellent 2011 season came from unsustainable success on the balls he hit, how much came from the “Reno factor,” and how much came from “a breakthrough season”? The gamble is that the latter is the key factor, but that’s no sure thing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
tws...
ok, no.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
I put Collin Cowgill's numbers through an MLE calculator.
Here.
It’s Triple-A neutral, so it doesn’t account for his AAA numbers being from Reno. It asks for the league, though, so I went with PCL obviously.
It projected a batting line of .281/.349/.424 for Cowgill in Oakland. A .773 OPS? The guy might be our second-best hitter in 2012. Ha.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:07 PM PST reply actions
Does that projection account of Conor Jackson batting behind him?
Because if it does,….
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Oh, then it's...(punches a few numbers on calculator)...
.174/.223/.218.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
statcorner says Reno has a 105 Park Factor for RH wOBA so we may wish to temper that
a bit.
ZiPS has Cowgill at .250/.318/.405 in Arizona, which is about a 91 wRC+, or what Ryan Sweeney and Hideki Matsui did last year.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
Curse generic MLE calculators.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
Bill James' 2012 projection for Collin Cowgill is .283/.341/.434 in 223 PA.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
And .285/.352/.396 for Ryan Sweeney, which is probably about the same after park
and league adjustments
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:21 PM PST up reply actions
D'oh.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe we really are going for an all Ryan Sweeney outfield.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
nice on the eyes then. :-)
AN Tailgate = Euphemism for food porn.
by Berry Jo on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I hear Conor Jackson would fit in too
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
Ha!
But you would be swayed to increase his slugging slightly after you read a late February article on oaklandathletics.com detailing how Sweeney is poised to hit for more power after adding 5 pounds of muscle?
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
5 lbs is nothing. Suzuki added like 50 lbs didn't he?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
That's why Suzuki is projected to hit 56 HRs,
while Sweeney is only projected to hit 38.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And don't forget that Kila Kaʻaihue will hit for 45 bombs
All during night games at home with the presence of thick marine layers.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
From Wolff: "Lew wow!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
no teasing!!
AN Tailgate = Euphemism for food porn.
by Berry Jo on Dec 9, 2011 10:01 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Still our second best hitter!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Behind Sizemore?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yes.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
He might literally hit behind him too.
Man I’d laugh if Sizemore and Cowgill opened the season hitting 3 and 4.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
It would have comedic value for sure.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
Great trade for the A's
Cahill couldn’t get out of his head. Extremely over rated Coliseum made him look good pitcher who will flounder in Arizona. Breslow’s best days are over. Parker looks like the real deal, Cowgill is a true CFer, which we will lose when Crisp goes away, and you can never have enough relievers. This will be a Mulder trade, NOT Hudson.
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." -Jessica Rabbit
I want what you're smoking
by OaklandSi on Dec 10, 2011 5:28 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
December 10th
Happy Day 1000 since MLB started reviewing the A’s stadium situation (credit to Marine Layer’s fantastic site). It’s been a glacial rollercoaster-ride of excitement. Special thanks to Bud Selig for his timeliness. If only we all deliberated at such a rate, then it is likely nothing would get done (white bread or whole grain pumpernickel, boxers or briefs today?).
Here’s to 1000 more days of Purgatory and 3 more future Cahill’s and Haren’s to trade…
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
I know I'm getting old and all, but each year it seems that I can't tell the difference
between the As and my neighbors rotisserie team.
If any of you are necromancers, is there a chance that you could maybe raise Finley from the dead or something? Just for old time’s sake? Heck, i’d be thrilled with someone named Haas.
It’s truly getting harder and harder to be a fan of any sports team. Okay, now I’ll make myself happy again and watch some porn.
Momentary happiness
Let’s just hope there is a plot to keep you watching.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
that's the exact look I had on my face when I saw the news of yet another surrender
and the exact look I have on my face when I watch porn.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The A's come out ahead 'cause Parker is cheaper?
If the A’s can’t afford a 24 year old SP making $3.5 million then it’s time to contract the team.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 9, 2011 9:21 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
You forget they're going to get Darvish with the savings
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
The 2012 Oakland A's: Too Cheap for a Rule 5 Pick
At least I believed that before today’s deal. It made sense to reserve the extra spot for today’s three new players…
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Assuming we trade Gio and Bailey as well...
Then our payroll is gonna sit well below $50M considering we’ve got very few arbitration raises to factor in.
Will MLB allow us to take such a payroll hit or is Beane gearing up for Darvish?
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't Darvish going to cost around $90 million after winning the bid for him and then getting him to sign?
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
No. He'll be free because we'll bid $550 Billion for him and then not sign him
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:29 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And then we'll sign Matsui to "build our Japanese brand".
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
HAHAHA
Wow that was funny
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 10:52 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I suppose
but you’ve got to look at that cost as being spread throughout the length of the contract. Sure, a fair amount of that is paid up front as a posting fee, but you’ve got to look at it as a 6/90 or whatever the deal would be, instead of 1/55 and then 5/35
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 9:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not that they can't afford the more expensive one...
but if given the choice, why not take the cheaper one?
by Brett Narloch on Dec 9, 2011 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
We need a Japanese player for the Tokoyo series
And preferably not a Matsui, Hideki or Kaz
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Keiichi, Akinori?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
tim hudson was a year away from free agency
cahill was under contract (reasonably priced for most of it) for 6 years. thats a big difference!
Hudson had also put up 4 straight years of a fWAR of 5.2 or greater
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
If I recall correctly the Hudson and Mulder trades of yore...
then we can expect a Gio trade by sometime tomorrow?
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
To the Blue Jays, please?
For Travis d’Arnaud, Noah Syndergaard and Chad Jenkins?
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
and Trystan Magnusson and Danny Farquhar
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
I'm a firm believer that our successful rebuild
relies mostly on acquiring and trading both those guys at least 7 times before 2015.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
three musketeer names are the new undervalued commodity
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Even if those guys all suck, they have great names.
Let’s do it!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They sound like the International Four Musketeers plus Chad Jenkins
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:38 PM PST up reply actions
I swear I read this after my above comment
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
The A's need more players with an apostrophe in their names
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
In particular,
Pu’jols and Re’yes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ja'ckson
Melvin says he is good
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
C'rap.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
...of the bearded variety
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Parker is a stud
With Cook, think not quite Henry, not quite as fast, not quite as wild. Cowgill is a standard Oakland OF, more glove than bat.
All this will be worth it if Parker is in fact a true ace and stays healthy.
I knew Henry Rodriguez. Henry Rodriguez is a friend of mine. Cook is no Henry Rodriguez.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
A hard throwing reliever with mediocre pedigree?
Shiny! But not good.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well he could be useful in a Joey Devine or Sam Demel kind of way.
He just doesn’t have the upside I like to see in a rebuilding trade, like Chris Carter had for example.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Remarkably, I had forgotten we had Devine until I read this comment
Why is he not mentioned as a possible successor to Bailey, like Balfour and DLS have been?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't think he was even in the majors in September was he?
He didn’t pitch in the majors after July 24
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
He was a total mess the second half of last year
But when he’s on track, he’s pretty dominant. TJS recovery often follows this up-and-down pattern, so I would think he’d come to ST with a chance that he’ll rebound.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes but those questions are probably why they're not mentioning him
in any definite role.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
To error is human
To save.. Devine
by Tony Nochelino on Dec 10, 2011 1:20 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
cook is older than Henry ROdriguez when Rodriguez was elected
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I think an important piece to remember with these kinds of trades
(known commodity for prospects) is that scouting is a profoundly inexact science, and so much of it comes down to your team saying, “I think this guy will live up to his potential” and “I think this guy is better than he’s rated” and so on. The A’s have targeted Parker and Cowgill and they are either right or wrong to have done so. And that’s what’s going to matter: How well have they scouted other teams’ players? Hopefully better than they have drafted their own!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well if they're right about Cowgill, it would be really impressive since almost no one else thinks
he’s a real CF.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
Honest question:
What kind of defensive projections did Ellis and Kotsay get as minor leaguers? Did everyone know they rocked or were they overlooked because they weren’t “toolsy”?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
BA had Kotsay the Marlins #1 prospect in 1998 FWIW. He was #12 in their Top 100 Prospects that year.
He wasn’t considered a future 4th OF if they ranked him that high. Of course Ben Grieve was #1.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm just curious about how those guys were rated defensively,
not whether they were thought to be starters or utility players in the making, and not in regard to Cowgill. Just wondering if guys like that are fully appreciated by minor league scouts or whether their defensive abilities tend to be underestimated.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
One indicator is that Kotsay played RF in 1998-2000 with the Marlins with
Todd Dunwoody (1998) and Preston Wilson (1999-2000) in CF, supposedly to take advantage of Kotsay’s arm. He didn’t play CF regularly until traded to the Padres in 2001.
It’s possible he wasn’t properly appreciated for his defense in Florida.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:20 PM PST up reply actions
Right. I don't recall Ellis being a very talked-about prospect
and I could easily see him being underappreciated by scouts. Or maybe he was thought to be such a light bat that he’d be a Gregorio Petit type of utility INF.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Right he was a 9th round pick and never made BA's Top 100
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
Ellis in Baseball America
Just after he was dealt to the A’s in the 2001 prospects book they said about Ellis (as a SS), " He is a steady if unspectaclar defender. Ellis’ arm strength isn’t quite up to par for shortstop, which means he may have to settle for being a second baseman or utilityman. " Much the same the following year. BA did not seem to see his future as a stud defender.
Interesting, thanks.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
2002 book
One interesting thing… about Coco Crisp in the 2002 book, “To become a major leaguer he’ll have to improve his defence, though. He has the league to play center field but probably not the arm” So BA is not the be all and end all.
When thinking about Cowgill and BA saying “He’s a versatile outfielder who can play all three outfield positions with average defense. Cowgill sports the best arm in the system (D backs) combining strength with accuracy. It’s his top tool and grades at 60or better on the 20-80scouting scale.” in the 2011 book. Based on that , he does not seem much worse than T. Long, Damon, Crisp, Swisher or Kotsay over the last 15 years? Damon and Crisp had crap arms but could get to alot of balls. It may wishful thinking, but I would take average with a gun arm.
I would especially take "average tools" with a gun arm and good instincts/capacity to keep learning
along with an average bat but very good base stealing skills.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Based on past experience
They’re more likely to be right about Parker and Cook than about Cowgill.
by OaklandSi on Dec 10, 2011 5:33 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I don't get the negativity about this trade
Cahill just isn’t that good, and there’s no reason to think he’ll get better. Pitchers don’t age like hitters. He’s just as likely to get injured or decline and not even be worth his salary by 2015 as he is to improve.
That's a good reason to trade him, if you believe it. It's not a good reason to trade him for
another pitcher who’s probably about as him, maybe with higher upside and higher risk, and two fringe low upside prospects.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 PM PST up reply actions
I just expected a greater haul
than this from trading a frontline starter with AS experience. Not to mention, we didn’t get offense in return, puzzling?
Re-sign Josh Willingham now!
by sf drift king on Dec 9, 2011 11:50 PM PST up reply actions
Here's the part that worries me
http://twitter.com/#!/joestiglich/statuses/145323125465300993
I don’t understand why the team would even consider not starting him in AAA.
That would be beyond stupid
Wait… that’s par for the course today.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Yeah, extremely disappointing if we don't leave him in AAA for at least a couple of months
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 11:38 PM PST up reply actions
So that we can get get expensive sooner
So that A’s can trade him sooner for something similar with fewer service years
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
Very weird trade
It’s basically a one-for-one, once you subtract the “Breslow for the sort of mediocre filler prospects that you can get for a reliably average reliever” part of it.
And even as someone who’s not (relatively speaking) a big fan of Cahill, I’m not thrilled with the one-for-one. Parker has an injury history and has never been particularly good in the minors anyway. Hype notwithstanding, he was probably the worst of the three major D-Backs pitching prospects back when the Haren trade was being put together (Scherzer and Anderson being the others— ironically, all three were ultimately traded).
Trading a player simply for one younger guy that you hope might be better than he is… it just doesn’t compute for me. From a value standpoint, Cahill is pretty obviously the better asset.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 9, 2011 10:59 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I can't say "stupid" because the A's do have a good track record with pitchers--
and if they honestly think, based on scouting or whatever, that Parker is better than Cahill, straight up, right now— then I have a hard time arguing with this.
It’s just odd to me that they would think that. He’s never done particularly well before now.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It's a bad sign
when even our big trades elicit yawns and cynicism.
It’s possible that Parker will turn out to be better than Cahill, but it’s a tough call based on the numbers – and the injury history tips it for me. Cahill is not as great as some of us hoped after 2010, or as bad as he looked at times this year. Frankly, it looks like a salary dump, plus Billy getting some roster filler guy that he’s always wanted.
And why do the A’s need to dump salary? It practically seems like a threat to the rest of baseball. Let us move to San Jose, or we’re going to keep doing this stuff, and maybe we’ll just keep sending our players to the Giants’ rivals. So you will pay us to be terrible.
Well, to be fair, "yawns and cynicism" describes most of what is elicited from me by life, generally
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Touche
But I know that people on this site, including you, would be revved up about a trade that yielded some high-risk, high-reward prospects in exchange.
This isn’t that kind of trade, unless Parker turns out to be a much better pitcher than he seems to be.
I actually would not be that "revved up" about high-risk prospects
One All-Star is not going to turn this franchise around, and that, in essence, is what you’d be shooting for with that kind of trade.
What I’m looking for is value, more than anything else. What’s depressing about this trade is that, in essence, my response is “Wow, Cahill’s only worth THAT much? Either you just screwed the pooch on this trade, or this franchise is more incurably fucked than even I had yet realized. Neither of those is a good thing.”
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Poorly worded on my part
I basically just meant high-ceiling. Parker might turn out to be a good pitcher, but he’s riskier than Cahill – so risk isn’t all I’m seeking. As you say, that either means Cahill is really not highly regarded or that the A’s made a bad trade.
It also is an indicator that the A’s really have nothing in the cupboard, and very little that would yield the sort of value that might restock the farm system and give us some hope for the future.
They don't "need" to dump salary
by OaklandSi on Dec 10, 2011 5:35 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Fo' shizzle.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It would indeed be interesting if hurting the giants competitively was part of beane’s motivation for this trade.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 10:59 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
so the plan is to trade all the best players to the NL west mainly d backs
til the Giants give up San Jose?
Haters Gonna Hate
by Wreckonized on Dec 9, 2011 11:17 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'm with you there
Diamondbacks, Rockies and San Diego give em our best pitchers and hope they dominate the Gnats.
As long as that means
The Giants lose 5 more games, shit I’m all for that.
would rather keep him.
Pipe dream, I know
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 11:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well I'm glad we made the Diamondbacks a little bit of a stronger team today
Now I really hope Cahill just blanks the Giants constantly. Really the A’s have made it apparent they have no means of contending why keep this great pitching staff around? Just to lose another 80 games and still be able to say “Hey we had the 2nd to lowest ERA in baseball”!
This pitching staff isn't particularly great
One injury-prone ace, one pretty good pitcher, a couple of average pitchers and some better-than-the-typical-dreck back end guys? I mean, that’s fine and all, it’ll get the job done if you have a good offense, but…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Well as I said in another post in 2-3 years I could see our pitch staff becoming elite.
But at this point in time the A’s don’t care to win now or in 3 years from now. They just want their stadium. I felt Gio was the pride of the bunch, but he still needs another year or two as a starting pitcher. Anderson as you said is basically a walking injury.
Why would they become elite in 2-3 years if they aren't elite now?
Pitchers, by and large, do not improve over time. In fact, although there are problems with the data because of the influence of injuries, they generally tend to get worse.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Experience, obviously talent-wise they won't be improving in any manner..
But learning what to pitch to certain hitters in certain situations rather than pitching your best stuff and hoping it works.. As they learn from failure they’ll gain experience and improve over time.
This is not impossible, but in general pitchers don't get better with age
They typically lose velocity and are as likely to get hurt as to improve. Your scenario is possible but I wouldn’t institute a policy of buying young pitchers hoping they’ll improve after the age of 24 or so.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
isn't the question with Cahill if he can find the curveball?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Well sure, but many a hurler has been relegated to mediocrity for that reason
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not quite as bearish on the A's pitching staff moving forward
Let’s assume they keep Gio (since he’s still here).
In Gio you have a solid #2 SP.
In Parker and Gray you have two guys with “#1 SP” potential.
In Anderson you have another potential #1. Undoubtedly not all 3 will fulfill that potential, but you have not one, not two, but three shots at it, likely yielding a #1, a #2, and a bust.
In McCarthy (hopefully the A’s secure him beyond 2012), you have a solid SP.
In Braden, Ross, Moscoso, Outman you have depth amongst SPs with contract control left.
Now the obvious caveats are that Parker, Anderson, Braden, and Ross have injury histories and that Parker and Gray are untested. Such is the nature of SPs — they’re often either unproven, coming back from injury, or both.
But looking at a 2013-15 rotation that could be Gio, Anderson, Parker, Gray, McCarthy (Braden, Ross, Moscoso, Outman), that gives me a fair amount to smile about.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But the rest of the roster is so bad that even if things work out for that rotation as you idealized,
you’d still have to trade from it to improve those areas. That’s the impetus behind rebuilding right now, no?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
Or you have to draft and develop really well.
Which, ultimately, is what the A’s are going to have to do.
Weeks and Choice could be the start of a solid lineup, from Barton/Allen/Taylor/Sizemore/Cowgill/Green you might get one worthy piece (I’m only asking for one out of six here!), and you might hit on a really good player at another position in the next draft, and that’s four out of nine right there. But Choice has to be a “hit” and you have to hit on another without dealing a front line pitcher.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If you believed you could've made up the talent deficit between the A's and Anaheim/Texas through the draft,
then it’s a mistake to trade Cahill and Gio in the first place.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, which is why it's so underwhelming.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
What it was probably supposed to do was to
buy Oakland 3 free years.
Basically, if Parker is “at least as good as Cahill” (which one should concede is perfectly likely because his pedigree is high and Cahill has been very inconsistent so far), the number of “more years” you have that SP cheap (and can thus spend money elsewhere) is 3 years.
So now it’s 2015 and you have someone at least as good as Cahill, only he’s just entering arbitration or has just begun his “buy out arby years” extension. You can have Cahill while you’re ready to suck for 3 years or you can have Parker while you’re ready to thrive.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So you're risking TINSTAPP to save 16 million over the next three years? Less, if Parker becomes Super 2
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
What's the rationale for putting Parker in the majors until he's out
of options if you don’t plan to contend anyway?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
There is none, IMO.
Especially because he’s coming back from TJS and didn’t show great control in 2011. He should absolutely spend some or all of 2012 in AAA and start his service clock in 2013.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He Started against the Dodgers this past season right?
Will that affect his service clock?
I don't think so until he hits a certain number of days (which he didn't)
IIRC, it could speed up how soon he has to be called up for good, but not beyond what they would want to do anyway (e.g., 2013). I could have this all wrong, though.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's still way, way below 1 year service time
all it really means is now he’s on the 40 man so he starts burning option years.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Exactly. He has burned one more option year. That's it and is no big deal
since we’ll want him up before he could burn all his option years anyway.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The new CBA will make a lot more Super 2's, IIRC
I don’t think it’ll be a matter of keeping guys in AAA til May any more.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I don't care about Super 2 status
Not as much as keeping ’em around.
The monster at the end of this blog.
But Super 2 status is directly related
to how much you have to pay to buy out arby years (or arby years plus 1-2), right?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No I know, but what I'm saying is that
if the team’s intention is to buy out those years with an extension, players who know they would be Super 2’s can reasonably ask for a more lucrative extension because they would have gotten more, overall, in arbitration had they not signed the extension.
So I’m saying that the new CBA rules should mean, overall, less team-friendly “buy out your arby years” contracts.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It has an impact on $$/WAR, though
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I don't know. But Stiglich tweeted that the A's are considering Parker for a rotation spot.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
That tells me they plan to contend in 2012. They've got spunk.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Spunk and brains don't have to be mutually exclusive....
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
There's also the fact that Parker has ace potential
His average yield might be “Cahill” while his ceiling is “a #1” (and his floor is “oops, bust”). And again, that’s where scouting comes in. If the A’s internally have assessed that Parker is “the real deal” that’s very different from if they have assessed that he’s a big “post-TJS question mark”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Everyone knows Parker has ace potential. That's not something the A's have brilliantly realized through "scouting" while everyone twiddled their thumbs.
Whether he reaches that potential is completely in the hands of luck and injuries now, something you can’t “scout” for. Unless you want to argue the A’s have some newfound ability to assess the likelihood of a young pitcher getting injured, which I’m guessing isn’t something you’d want to argue.
You’d also have to factor in the non zero chance Cahill turns into an ace as well.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
For a guy coming off TJS
His velocity looks good in the low to mid nineties. He told Slusser he got up to 98 last year. Usually velocity increases in the second year from TJS. Maybe the A’s are counting on that.
That's the same as what he was throwing before TJS, and TJS velocity increases are a myth.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
but tommy john's nickname is the Bionic man
he must throw harder
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
My point is that not all "has ace potential" prospects are equal.
Reports on Parker are that his recovery from TJS has gone great. In the words of Sickels:
Fall reports indicate that his recovery has gone splendidly…Arizona officials seem very optimistic about him for ‘11 and don’t regard the injury as anything more than a bump in the road at this point.
I’m not suggesting the A’s uniquely understand this. I’m saying they have gauged that Parker, of all the guys they had a shot at landing for Cahill, is the one who will be “the real deal”. Let’s hope they’re right.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They're not equal because of the likelihood of injury!
Allow me to repeat myself. What I’m saying is that BY FAR the biggest reason why young pitchers don’t reach whatever level of performance they’re expected to reach is because their profession has such high rates of catastrophic injuries.
That isn’t something anyone has figured out how to account for and certainly overshadows whatever nth% of “ace potential-ability” the A’s have determined, rightly or wrongly, over everyone else.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
And what I'm saying is that Parker has already had the injury
and the reports of his recovery are positive. Will he have another injury? I don’t know. But that’s not the trend with TJS; in fact having “brand new parts” makes him a very good used car. Generally, you either don’t come back from TJS (see Devine) or you come back and are no more of an injury risk (maybe less of one) going forward.
You’re acting like it doesn’t matter how his first year of TJS recovery has gone for him physically, and I’m disagreeing with that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I see a lot of unsubstantiated statements here.
But that’s not the trend with TJS; in fact having "brand new parts" makes him a very good used car. Generally, you either don’t come back from TJS (see Devine) or you come back and are no more of an injury risk (maybe less of one) going forward.
Can you give me evidence that any of this is true or is this more in the vein of statements like “TJS increases velocity!”?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Nope, can't substantiate it
I believe it’s true/substantiated but I have neither the acumen nor interest to go searching.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
With the new pfx leaderboards on Fangraphs, this shouldn't be that hard to test.
Might have to wait a few years, though, until we can get a good enough sample of pre- and post-TJS pitchers in the PITCHf/x era.
or, you're Chris Capuano and blow the elbow out again and have another TJS
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Yup, no guarantees, for sure.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That is something I'd like to see tested
Are pitcher’s who’ve has TJS more likely to suffer a repeat injury then an uninjured pitcher can be expected to need TJS at some point in his career?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Right. I figure if such information was out already, it'd be well known and much discussed.
If you can assess the likelihood of a pitcher suffering a catastrophic injury, and whether it’s higher or lower than before or after TJS, that’s very valuable information to a major league team. It’d be a tremendous step towards the holy grail of injury prediction.
As far as I know, such data doesn’t exist yet, which is why I was curious about Nico’s claim.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not pulling it out of my own "well I think it's probably that way,"
just FYI, I’m recalling (correctly or incorrectly) what I’ve read over the years, but I don’t know where or how to find it; it’s just what I remember learning.
I recall one article that promoted (not that I agree with it) something like, after HS or college all pitchers should have “pre-emptive TJS” to sacrifice a year of pitching for a “new elbow” because they would come back stronger with an elbow that had no wear and tear on those ligaments. Or something to that effect.
Does that ring a bell for anyone, and if so what did it really say (I’m not quoting it quite right, but you get the idea).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah, but that's like saying "the sky is blue"
The A’s still need pitching. You could say “well, he might need TJS” to any starter in MiLB and you could be right. Doesn’t mean it’s something that should be weighted heavily, though.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
It's not a decision between Parker and another "starter in MiLB".
Sure if you’re choosing between two pitching prospects, injury is the great equalizer, so choose whoever you’ve determined to have greater upside.
The actual trade is between Parker, a minor league pitcher with an injury history, and a guy who’s already pitched consecutive 200 inning workloads in the majors, with no injury history.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
More generally, would you just have rather we traded Cahill for bats instead?
If so, I can get behind that. But, our pitching depth is so depleted/sucky that even drafting pitching in 2012 and beyond isn’t going to help enough to make a contender in 2015.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I said it below. It's not Cahill for Parker that I have issues with.
It’s Cahill for basically only Parker. I’m not concerned with the risk of pitching prospects if there’s adequate mitigation from valuable secondary pieces.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
It's not correct to say Cahill has no injury history
He’s not Dan Haren or Barry Zito. He’s suffered injuries in the past (IIRC his time at the Olympics was cut short due to an injury); they’ve just been minor and kept him out no more than a couple of weeks at a time.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
start of 2010
left shoulder
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
If you want to give the A's benefit of the doubt
They may be better than average at finding star pitching. That would mean Parker has a better than average chance of being an ace.
I’m not willing to give them benefit of doubt with the injuries. And that’s what makes this a poor trade.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
That is indeed one possibility.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It should be TINSTAST
There is no such thing as a “sure thing”. There IS a such thing as a pitching prospect. They’re ALL prospects.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I haven't traded Gio in my scenario.
You’re making it up with a combination of the trades and the draft, along with timing your ascension with TEX and LAA coming back down.
I didn’t even mention Bailey. If you can trade Bailey for one good position player (meaning a young “potentially good one” who pans out), there’s one and you still have all the pitchers I list. So:
Weeks – 2B
Choice – COF
BATSCG (one of my 6 from above)
Bailey returnee
Hit on 2012 draft
You could have 5 “playoff worthy” position players, right there, behind an excellent pitching staff. IF you hit on the right players in the draft/trade process.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
All I have to say is
Get a decent (potential) power hitter or resign and let someone else GM
Just thought I would put my regular Beane Rant in there.
I think we could have and should have gotten much more than what we got but I will reserve judgment on it at the moment.
Like I said, if you believed it was possible to make up the talent gulf between the A's and Yankees West through those means,
then you shouldn’t be in favor of rebuilding or trading Cahill for Could-Be-Cahill at all.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
What you're thinking is that
you can’t make it up by 2012-13 but you can by 2015. If you’re seeking “A guy like Cahill who is affordable enough that we can spend elsewhere” then Parker is better than Cahill in 2012-2017.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I can sort of see a justification that they'll take the Cahill savings
and spend on IFAs, but then they’d better do that. The CBA makes it unattractive to spend on the draft, although it makes it easier to sign FA without giving up a pick
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
For all we know they won the Darvish bid
That timing would actually make sense: The trade becomes Cahill for Parker and with it some $ to post/sign Darvish. Cahill (and $) for Parker and Darvish is pretty awesome!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They're sending $ to Arizona though.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Not much ($250K?)
Relative to Darvish, that’s negligible.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No idea.
But if they said they were doing it, who knows. Seems like a weird thing to do anyway.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
The only savings you can factor in for sure are that Cahill makes 9 million the next two years while Parker makes league minimum.
Beyond that, if Parker becomes like Cahill or better than Cahill, you won’t be saving much, at all, assuming you smartly sign him to a similar extension.
Like I said, that’s a big monetary gamble on TINSTAPP for what’s essentially a lateral move.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
Except Cahill's service clock/contract is running,
while Parker’s can be kept at zero for a while.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
OK.
Fixed.
that’s a big monetary gamble on TINSTAPP for what’s essentially a lateral move and flexibility.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
It sounds like you just aren't comfortable gambling on pitching prospects
Totally understandable, but also unavoidable in a real rebuilding process. You have to gamble on unproven young pitchers and position players and hope you have scouted well.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm uncomfortable gambling on young pitching prospects when they're basically all I receive for a young pitcher who's already producing in the majors and healthy.
This has nothing to do with being uncomfortable with the “rebuilding process” because it isn’t a rebuilding trade.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
This is correct
I could see a future argument for getting Anderson back and showcasing his health and pitchability and then shopping him a year down the road because his current contract runs out in 2015. The same applies to Gio.
But Cahill would be on the books (if his performance merited the team picking up his option) through 2017.
The marginal savings accrued over the next 3 years does not justify the trade.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Not that I am anymore positive on the trade than you.
But you would save later too.
If Parker becomes Cahill you pay him Cahill’s salary from 2012-2014 (17MM) instead of Cahill’s last year plus options (around 40MM). And that is during your new stadium splash, where you are able to pay more FA money.
the draft
The idea of gaining excess talent thru the draft may be much more difficult with the new CBA rules. Theoretically, talent will go pretty much in order with the new hard slotting rules, no more over slot deal$ to falling talent types.
It will now be all on the scouting/development staff to find the talent, not on overpaying either thru the draft or by free agency. I thing the A’s need to beef up the scouting and development departments in the organization asap.
I don’t like the Cahill trade but I admit this is the type of move they have to make for the next year or two as they adjust to the new CBA and try to get a new stadium going.
by kimo from kauai on Dec 10, 2011 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
I should have said two pretty good pitchers
But, one of them is highly injury-prone too.
Point is, any given time, I’d not really expect the current group to be more than an average or slightly above average MLB rotation, because so many of them have recurring issues.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I guess a lot comes down to Gray's development too
Seems like the upside of this rotation is legitimately another “Big 3” with Anderson, Parker, and Gray, and there’s even parallels with Hudson having “recurring injury issues” and Mulder dominating but then breaking down while Zito stayed healthy. That’s a reasonable “possible health outcome” for Anderson, Parker, and Gray going forward.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm almost happy now that Anderson had TJ
Doughboy was my favorite of the four. Even with all the time he’s gonna miss, that contract is really good. Glad he’ll be sticking around for at least a while longer.
by thelincolndude on Dec 12, 2011 7:21 AM PST up reply actions
I know pitching wins championships
but I would like to see some highly rated young hitters coming to A’s instead of pitchers.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Dec 9, 2011 11:26 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
You got that right
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Yea I felt our pitching staff with about 2-3 more years of experience would become championship worthy, of course you need a offense to back those pitchers.
I was surprised the A’s actually traded for another pitcher, rather than a hitter. I figure they have had more luck developing pitchers so they went for this Arizona guy. The only decent hitter we’ve developed in the past 10 years has been Weeks.
Uh, Swisher?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Damn! I forgot about him. Especially knowing I've met swish.
Alright so we have developed 1 good hitter in the past 10 years and a leadoff hitter that has potential to be great. And yea the A’s definitely have to go after grade A-B prospects(especially when your dealing with prospects) guys we can see starting in the next 2-3 years. I just felt the A’s would have went after a hitter in the minors.
We developed his GOld glove caliber defense
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Yea in the late 90's
Just because Giambi, Tejada and Chavez were on our roster 10 years ago we weren’t developing them at that time, they were already developed 11-13 years prior to now.
Wait are your referring to currently having a gold glove defense?
And my post was regarding hitting as in not counting fielding what-so-ever. Like as in the past 10 years we have only developed 2 legit hitting threats(Swisher, Weeks) who’ve been in our farm system and made it to the A’s 40 man roster.
i was making fun of his defense
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Yea but we didn't hang on to him, obviously they didn't think of Eithier highly enough to keep him.
We didn’t hang on to Carlos Pena either, hey! Let’s throw in Nelson Cruz too!
So when I mean developed I mean your in our minor leagues and made it to the professionals with the A’s.
Not your in our farm system and obviously you didn’t impress our scouting department enough to keep you, even though you end up a stud.
Meh
The team is desperately talent-starved right now. In no way should the A’s be accepting anything less than the best player(s) available in any trade, regardless of position.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I guess so
I just miss having good hitters on the team.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
I'd rather have position players just because of the lower risk of injury
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:14 AM PST up reply actions
this
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
wow
my 1st green post (I think). I feel special
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 9, 2011 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
In case my headline confused the issue, I'm not actually "back," just ducking in to discuss a big trade.
If the A’s trade Gio I may well be compelled to write something too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"I need an old priest and a young priest!"
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
"I feel like a little boy!"
- Jerry Sandusky
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
too soon?
:-o
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
The problem is the same as before
Even when dumping our best, salary-controlled major leaguers, we get a package of players that includes a banjo-hitting outfielder who basically just fills the roster, some random pitcher, and a prospect whose chief virtue seems to be that he’s cheaper – and possibly a little better – than the major league pitcher we traded to get him.
The A’s are making it too easy for even their hardcore fans to ignore them.
your last line says it all
but I will persevere – fans of other teams carry on when their teams make crappy moves, and I will too.
Cowgill Is Kind Of Like Kotsay
Except I envision him having a bit more power, and some more speed. Think along the lines of .290/25/85 in a good season.
The Hudson trade is a fair comparison, as Meyer and Parker are similar in some ways; however, I think that Cowgill is more promising then Charles Thomas was.
I seriously don't get all the Cowgill/Kotsay comparisons
Yes, they both throw left-handed, but…
- when they first entered the draft, one was a 20-yr old picked in the first round, the other was a 21-yr old picked in the 29th round
- one was ranked as high as the 12th best prospect in the game, the other basically doesn’t even get ranked within his own club’s system
- one posted an OPS of .919 in the AA as a 21-yr old, the other posted an OPS of .825 in the AA as a 24-yr old
- one got a signing bonus of over a $1m in 1996, the other barely over $100k in 2008
…
Basically, everybody thought Kotsay was a great player and nobody thought Cowgill was one until he had a great year in 2011 (fueled in no insignificant part by his .400 BABIP), playing in the minors as a 25 year old.
And yet, you project him to be better than Kotsay?
2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too
he's white, he plays centerfield, how can you not see the similarities?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Maybe he means 2010 Kotsay
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
hopefully his wife is hot like Jamie
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
Ooh.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
ONLY IF SHE'S 5'3
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 10, 2011 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
and if she has little bike shorts on
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Well,
I’m talking more about the kind of player they are: get on base, can hit for power, but are more contact hitters, good fielders, don’t have outstanding tools but still put up good numbers. That type of stuff.
I’m not neccesarily saying Cowgill’s better then Kotsay, but I envision him putting up similar stats, with slight differences eg. power and speed. If Cowgill ended up being like Kotsay, then I think that would be real good, because Kotsay was an excellent hitter in Oakland; his 2004 season stands out.
by Sean Fortuna on Dec 11, 2011 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Most of my disdain stems from the process
The A’s are allergic to selling high on guys. I know it was probably inconceivable to trade him last year, but if you’re gonna do it, it should be after a flukish all-star season. And it bothers me how enamored we are with Colin Cowgill. I feel like that is a bad way to do business. I think Parker will do well, but the only way this deal can truly satisfy me is if Cowgill sheds the 4th OF label and actually becomes a worthwhile player and validates our obsession with acquiring him. And if he doesn’t than I’ll probably have to go to the A’s front office and break their crayons.
So the part about crayon breaking is true?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
My problem with the perennial "sell high" argument
is that it always defines “sell high” as “sell right after the guy had a flukishly good season”. The presumption is that other GMs will automatically overpay for a guy just because his performance exceeded his true talent last year. And we believe that because why? If we fans can look up numbers on FanGraphs and figure out a guy isn’t as good as his appearances on ESPN highlights, you don’t think there’s someone in the other teams’ front office who can figure the same thing?
I think the true sell high has to do with things like which teams are looking to win now, feeling market pressures right now, temporary scarcities at certain positions, and things like that — not something so obvious and transparent as a guy having an uncharacteristically good season just recently.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I thought it meant "Smoke a joint and then make whatever deal sounds good"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I still think there is an opportunity to drain the Rangers of some talent.
They just have to be feeling the heat with Pujols and Wilson signings. It looks like they plan to deal prospects as a last resort. I expect them to go hard after Darvish or reconsider Fielder. If they fail to sign Darvish that desperation may reach a breaking point. They might be willing to consider a blockbuster trade.
Gio, Bailey, Carter to Rangers.
Olt, Perez, Profar to the A’s.
The Rangers get a top starter, a proven closer and get to move Nathan, Uehara and Adams to set up roles. Maybe the best bullpen in baseball. Carter may find Texas air to his liking and maybe you can still sell him as a first basemen. (One can hope).
The infield should be fantastic with Olt and Profar projected to be plus defenders with plus power. Parker, Gray and Perez are pieces to build a rotation around. There should plenty of cash to sign a plus OF to round out the team in 2015.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
I'd throw in more players from the A's side and still make that deal
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
Wait, seriously?
You drastically overvalue their prospects…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Maybe, but I really like Profar, Perez and Olt, and the A's don't have anyone else good
so it’s not like we could give up much more even if we wanted to.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 11, 2011 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Wouldn't Gio for Profar, straight up, be a good trade for the A's?
Just wondering — as you know, I suck at “trade equity analysis”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Random question
Would you rather have Parker, Cowgil, Cook or Erlin, Wieland (what Padres got for Mike Adams) for Cahill/Breslow?
I'd rather have Parker than any combination of the other guys
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather have Parker, no question.
If only because we have plenty of depth already, but fewer impact type players. Don’t get me wrong, I love Erlin and Wieland. But neither have the Ace potential of Parker. So if I have a choice between two #3 starters or a weak #1/strong #2 starter, I’ll go with Parker.
But it’s a false comparison anyway. No one would give up Parker for Adams. A fairer comparison would be If we would give up Tim Stauffer and Luke Gregerson for Parker, Cowgil, and Cook. In that case, I’d probably say no.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
I don't see why any rebuilding team, A's or Padres, would want Cowgill and Cook
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 11, 2011 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
The Cahill Trade.
Is this another round of Deal and Dump? We don’t know for sure. Sounds like it, smells like it…but it’s the season to be merry, so let’s try to put some holiday spin on this. Go Donner and Blitzen….go Hudson and Haren and Cahill. We don’t need you. We’re building for the future—again—and we can do it without top-notch players. We can’t afford them. Times are tough, and after all, MLB welfare checks go only so far.
Is this another round of Deal and Dump? Sounds like one, smells like one, but we don’t know for sure. Tis the season to be merry, so let’s try to put a holiday spin on this. Go Donner and Blitzen….go Hudson and Haren and Cahill. We’re building for the future, again, and we don’t need you. We don’t need top-notch players to built a winner. Can’t afford them. Times are tough. Like anyone else, owners of a major league baseball team have to eat….and MLB welfare checks only go so far.
I must say
it’s really hard to dislike any rebuilding trade when there are asinine, totally clueless comments like this one to make you want to not be on the same side of anything as the person making them.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2011 8:04 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Manny
Available but likely to have trouble finding a job.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/mlb-reinstates-manny-ramirez.html
Sign him for the minimum, sit him until June, play him for 2 months, and then trade him or cut him. Or, if the kids are playing well, just release him when his suspension is up and you’ve barely lost anything.
among other issues, he'll have to serve his 50 day suspension...
among the things lost: a roster spot…if we really need to sign an aging DH there are others I’d rather take a chance on.
Yeah but he's not taking up a roster spot while he's suspended
Maybe a 40-man spot? Like I said, if you decide when his suspension is up that there’s no room for him, you can just release him and you’ve lost nothing. But by June, who knows, there might be injuries, there might be demotions. Could let him hit for two months and then see if a contender wants him.
by thelincolndude on Dec 10, 2011 7:31 AM PST up reply actions
This isn't a terrible idea
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
One thing to like about this trade:
I got a fever, and the only prescription is More Cowgill!
The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart
by Hegenberger Road on Dec 10, 2011 7:50 AM PST reply actions 6 recs
mother of god.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
I can't believe that it never occured to me.
For chrissakes, I have TWO “more cowbell” tshirts
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
It seems you had a fever
And the only prescription was more cowbell t-shirts
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
Maybe that was why Billy insisted on including him nt
nt
The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart
by Hegenberger Road on Dec 10, 2011 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
And if Billy Beane thinks we need more Cowgill,
We should probably give him more Cowgill!
The glare was not practiced. I would get into the game situations, and when that happens, there comes a level of concentration that most can only imagine but can never achieve. You become what you are doing, and that is what you see on my face. -Dave Stewart
by Hegenberger Road on Dec 10, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
NEVER question Billy Beane!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I think the real question is, is a Colin Cowgill better than a Colin Cowherd?
There is no A in OFFENSE!!
There's a person named Colin Cowherd?
I had to google it to find out if it was a joke
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:20 AM PST up reply actions
The bigger joke is the guy's opinions
He is such a windbag, he makes other analysts look timid and wise by comparison
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
Yes, in the "causes global warming" sense...
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Yes. Cowherd is terrible
I agree with the selling high on a player you believe exceeded expectations but the A’s did not do that last year and it’s water under the bridge for me. If you look at the top 10 in the D’backs system Pollock is the only outfielder and he was at double A this year. I get that Cowgill isn’t a 5 tool player, but the fact is the A’s didn’t give up an ace in the deal. Getting Parker back and a serviceable outfielder(that’s what he is, serviceable) to either spot start or come in as a defensive replacement is a fine deal for me if the D’backs were the team that made you the best offer. I also would have liked to get a power bat for the lineup, hitters plateau later in their development and you’re giving up a Cahill in the deal what would you expect from the Diamondbacks in return? Also, keep in mind, Crisp hasn’t signed anywhere yet so there’s still the possibility he returns to Oakland, Sweeney is the back up OF, and Cowgill is in AAA….where he belongs.
The worst person to run from is yourself.
So are we trading Gio and Bailey today or should I go do something else?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Probably tomorrow. They waited 48 hours to trade Mulder
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
My guess is that a Gio trade happens in a week or two
after we find out who wins the rights to Yu Darvish and the teams that lose out start to get desperate for pitching
Another Beane man crush
Beane has been hot for Cowgill for over a year. Looking at his stats through the minors he does come back as a 4th outfielder or a mediocre 3rd best outfielder. Power numbers are so so and the hitting will be average. Even Micheal Taylor has a bigger plus side then Cowgill. That being said we hope his defense is good enough for CF so he can split between Taylor and Sweeney long enough to let Choice and Green to develop in AAA. I would love to see Coco back in CF but I doubt he signs because playing for a losing team is not very fun unless the A’s are the only team offering multi year contract. Man up people it will be a long year for us A’s fans.
Cowgill in the Sand
Cowgill is terrible???
2011 PCL Player of Year. Baseball America AAA All Star. Hit .354 with .984 OBP. 30/33 successful steal attempts. Strongest OF arm in AZ system. What’s not to like?
Could be superior cf for years. Or Not. Terrible? The A’s looking for upgrade over Coco, for chrissakes.
Wow! A .984 OBP!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
Can we just step back for a moment and consider,
“What IF there were a player who somehow could maintain a .984 OBP?” It would be so cool/weird.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
John Paciorek!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
Such a player would only be allowed to make roughly 10 outs a season.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
Eddie Gaedel.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 10, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Darn. I'm a lot less impressed now.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
thanks for pointing out some positives.
While I am inclined to believe scouting reports, you are right to point out the numbers are good
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 11:13 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, but they're also cherrypicked
He wasn’t anywhere near that good before last year.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
WOOHOO! Nico is back!
AN early Christmas present for ALL of us!
LET’S GO OAK—— LAND!!!!
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."
Thanks. ;-)
But I don’t want to confuse people — I’m not “back”. Had there not been a big trade I wouldn’t have written something. But I appreciate being appreciated by those who appreciate me! Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go back to depreciating.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But, this means there IS hope you will come back!
ANd, BB isn’t just sitting pat this offseason.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."
Pretty sure I'll be back
And that things will be a little different (and better, and not that different). I’m using the time off to gain perspective. (And, apparently, to comment on AN and write on the front page!)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I dont like this trade
I liked Cahills durability. His contract was team friendly and he had potential to return to all star caliber. Considering that Cowgills stats came at Reno I would consider him equivalent to Mitchell/Miller.
by gambler on Dec 10, 2011 9:24 AM PST via mobile reply actions
the a's have at least 1000 days before bud notices
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
"Beane of 1000 Days."
Didn’t the 1000 days end up with Anne Boleyn getting her head chopped off?
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."
And she's our top prospect now.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Quick! Who is currently the most expensive player on the A's for 2012?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Suzuki?
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 10, 2011 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
I just looked
both Suzuki and FUUUUUUUUUUUU get $5M in 2012
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
But Suzuki gets some sort of small bonus, putting him slightly ahead.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 10, 2011 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Shoot, I thought it was only FUUUUU cause I was looking at 2011 for Suzuki.
It would’ve been funnier if it was just FUUUUUUUU.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 10, 2011 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
also the image!
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
And the reaction we have to most of his appearances
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
FWIW, this is what Sickel's wrote about Cowgill earlier this year when he was called up.
I understand his scouting reports aren’t great (mostly because of size it seems), and his AAA stats are fueled by a ridiculous .397 BABIP, but I’m a little surprised people are overlooking just how good his numbers have been in the minors in general.
His peripherals in AAA in 2011 were 11.2% BB rate, 13.8% K rate, .200 ISO, and a .397 BABIP.
The year before in AA, he sustained a 9.9% BB rate, 12.7% K rate, .179 ISO, and a more normal .300 BABIP, good for a 127 wRC+.
Again, he was not young for these levels, but I don’t see too much more he could have done, his walk rate is high, his K rate is low, he has shown decent power, and his ridiculous BABIP has obviously not served to inflate perception of his skill, and should really be looked at as a good thing. Hitters have some control over their BABIP, and you’d rather see a prospect with a very high BABIP than a very low one, especially if the peripherals are there as well.
If he can really be a plus defender in right (assuming he’s average in center. meaninglessly small-sample defensive metrics for his time in the majors do support both of these claims… which is better than them not, but not particularly meaningful), then I see no reason not to project him as an above average major league player.
In any case, I think he’s being underrated here because people are angry at this trade, mostly because the A’s didn’t need to get players that “might be underrated” in exchange for Cahill, they could have gotten some more players that were “good by consensus.” But nonetheless, this may not be as bad as our guts are telling us.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 10, 2011 10:07 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
That said, why in hell would the A's "prefer Parker over Bauer"?!
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 10, 2011 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
They wouldn't. That's probably just internet-nonsense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yep. It all comes down to whether the A's correctly scouted
which pitcher and which position player would pan out as well or better than they projected. The A’s have undoubtedly done their HW; now we’ll see how good their HW is ultimately graded.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The scouting reports aren't tepid "mostly because of size". They're tepid because they don't
see enough of a power tool to be a good corner OF and not enough speed to play CF. The only ways that these could be invalid is either if they’re wrong and he does in fact possess those tools, or if he is going to hit for a very high average or walk a huge number of times.
The 127 wRC+ for a 24 year old in AA isn’t terrible but also isn’t all that impressive for a corner OF, nor is the .179 ISO.
I dislike the trade not because Cowgill might be underrated, but because even if he’s the superb 4th OF that he might become then it’s not all that valuable to the 2015 team. His absolute ceiling is supposedly David DeJesus, which would be good if it were highly probable, but it’s not.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
You know who Cowgill is sort of reminding me of as I follow the discussion?
Scott Sizemore. Maybe a “tweener” (fail) or maybe “better than you might think” (solid) at his final position.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's the best we can hope for at this point.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Sounds kinda like he was
Arizona’s Jermaine Mitchell (slightly younger). Somewhat unheralded by most scouts, only one really good season in his minor league portfolio, on the verge of being to old to be considered a prospect (well, Jermaine already is). So if we reverse engineered this trade so that we were trading for the young stud pitcher, it would be us trading for Ian Kennedy and David Hernandez and giving up Tyson Ross, Jermaine Mitchell, and Andrew Carignan. When you look at it that way – damn, we got screwed. I know Ross has never been the preeminent prospect that Parker is, but still….ouch.
Well Parker is worth more than all of Ross, Mitchell and Carignan combined
so trading him for Ian Kennedy is sort of fair.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:19 PM PST up reply actions
It's not a spectacular trade, but it could always be worse
We could have traded the best hitting catcher in the AL for Vernon Wells
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
We would never do that because we'll never have the best hitting catcher in the AL in the first place
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
dude we had the best hitting catcher probably EVER.
for like half a season. when he was old. and sucked. and couldn’t catch anymore.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 10, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We had Josh Gibson?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Probably my last year of season tickets
I’ll bite the bullet this year, but this is it.
Trades for the sake of trading and a bad team. No chance of season tickets when the team moves to San Jose because it’s too far. After this year, and until the move, the team will get younger and worse. There is no point in going to 25-30 games a year any more. The team won’t make the post-season so I get no benefits from that either. Parking is cheaper, as are the seats. But the same seats will probably be available because nobody will go to the Coliseum, and fewer games means less money over all.
Think of this, Mr. Forst and Mr. Beane, as getting a younger and cheaper fan base.
Im hoping Cook turns out to be the radar
Piece of the trade. Turn into a closer or something since nobody is expecting anything from him.
by gambler on Dec 10, 2011 10:23 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I liked Radar Piece better. Sounds like the mild mannered alter ego of a superhero
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
How 'bout the Radar O'Reilly Piece?
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Dec 10, 2011 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
I like the deal
The A’s are obviously playing for 2015. Yes, Cahill is a dependable starter that is proven in the big leagues and Parker is not. From the reports I’ve read, Parker has a higher upside, but obviously since he hasn’t really pitched in the bigs, a lower floor.
Not proven yet, but lets say (hope) Parker and Cahill cancel each other out.
But let’s not overlook that Cahill is set to earn 12 million in 2015. We can obviously use that money (whatever the difference between Cahill and Parker’s contracts in 2015) to go and sign some/a free agent to improve our team in 2015.
I look at the deal this way:
Parker/Cahill – even
Cowgill and Cook > Breslow (especially in 2015)
12 million extra to spend on FA’s – advantage A’s
If he rebuilds properly
and obtains Major League ready players amongst others (or for 2012), this team had better be contending in 2013 at the very latest I would think
Very well put
Pretty much what I’m trying to suggest, in many more words, with my post.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Being concise
You’re doing it wrong
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
Will he actually spend it on FAs though?
Maybe he can invest that 12mil for 2015. . .I can not remember a team actually coming out and saying we want to be good in 4 years honestly its absurd.
I think they will
when the time is right. Meaning with a new ballpark and a solid core of young players. I believe they will go out and spend the money.
I also believe
that they have zero chance of contending within the next 3 years with the current roster/minor league situation.
Maybe it's invested in Darvish, e.g.,
spending revenue sharing $ on the posting fee and Cahill $ on the contract. That would set the A’s up really well:
Darvish, Anderson, Parker, Gray is a pretty promising core to have in 2014 and beyond as a starting point.
Now you trade Gio for the kick-ass position player(s) you’re needing, knowing that 12 teams are serious about bidding for him and you hold the cards. Add Montero and Banuelos to that group, or add Jacob Turner and Nick Castellanos, or add Profar, etc. — the best deal offered in a pretty legitimate bidding war.
Adding Darvish and dealing Gio for the right haul, and you might have yourself a damn good team in a couple years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I will be very surprised if the A's win the bid on darvish
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Me too, but it would make the context of the Cahill trade make a lot more sense.
For all I know, maybe the A’s think/know they’ve won the bid.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Didnt they put in a 19-20 mill bid on iwakuma?
Anything is possible, you would think forst would flat out deny interest in darvish publicly then.
by J.J. Miller on Dec 10, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Depends when that nasty Pujols/Hamilton collision takes place
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I was upset breslow was a throw in
But like wuertz, ziegler these are setup/middle relievers. On a non contending team paying several mill is a luxury, not a need. As wuertz said one time, they are “smoke ands mirrors” Last several yrs, we’ve seen more high velocity relievers. A’s might 4 or 5 relievers that can touch 95 mph. In the mid 2000’s only casilla, maybe street/gaudin could do that, obviously a change in scouting since.
From an optimistic view they get a potentially higher upside pitcher in parker.
As we know if A’s like a player they’ll make every attempt to acquire them, cowgill is that guy. I guess we have to trust the A’s scouts judgements. Cook is a risk/upside choice. Skipped AAA, 1st yr as a full time reliever, was clocked at 100 mph according baseball america.
I highly doubt the A’s are done dealing. Maybe they even use the extra money on an int’l free agent (bid on darvish, offer to cespedes, try for iwakuma or wada)
Oh Goody!!! Turned the TV on and there is the slegnA press conference
and they are all there, Weaver, Haren, Hunter and so on. A couple of thousand fans there as well.
I wonder if they are going to contend this year. LOL
Go Texas
my slegnA is at an all-time high now
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
slegnA hate
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 10, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
C J Wilson says
“There’s no better manager than Mike”
I would like to see Gio go to Texas Just so he can keep beating these assholes.
That is if Gio is traded.
At this point I just say fuck it
and call the Angels up and say, “Hey, do you want to field the best pitching staff ever? We’ll trade you Gio Gonzalez and Andrew Bailey for Mike Trout, Garret Richards, Jean Segura, and a box of MC Hammer B-sides.”
Can we view this trade as a significant insight into the San Jose decision?
I feel like we can. From everything I’ve read from the end of the 2011 season till now, the A’s would be taking one of the following 2 routes…
- If they knew they’d be told “No” on San Jose they’d go into a win-now mode trying to make the team as attractive as possible to potential buyers as Wolff and Fisher would look to sell the team.
- If they were told “Yes” on San Jose they’d go into a rebuild right away trying to build a young team that’s playoff ready for the new stadium in 2015.
It would make absolutely no sense to trade one of your best (not saying much) and well-known players/pitchers if you were going to be in a win-now mode. I think this trade shows the A’s know they’re getting the ok to move to San Jose and that they’re going to be able to announce the move before the start of the 2012 season.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
In fairness, the A's weren't going to "win now" either way
Their team just isn’t that good.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Definitely not.
But from what I garnered, they were going to try and boost attendance by at least making it appear that they were trying to put a good team on the field for 2012 if they were to sell. Granted, boosted attendance would largely come from the casual fan and not from those of us that are the die-hard AN folk.
You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ
by bakerbeachboy on Dec 10, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, they were going to try to "win more"
Different from “win now” in that winning 80 games is “winning more” than winning 73 games, but is not a “win now” team.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
In that case I think this shows they're trying to win now
They acquired what could be 2-3 win players in Parker and Cowgill and a somewhat ready reliever in Cook. They didn’t try and get players who are going to be part of a 2015-2020 dynasty
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
Angels got a $3 billion tv deal, $150 mill a year
another punch in the gut
that's $100 million more per year than the last...
Pays for pujos and Wilson right there.
by Brett Narloch on Dec 10, 2011 9:28 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
With that kind of money they could sign Aramis and Madson as well
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
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