Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow Traded to Arizona for Jarrod Parker, Collin Cowgill, Ryan Cook
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 3:41 PM PST
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PrintThe A's traded Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow to the Diamondbacks today for Jarrod Parker, Collin Cowgill, and Ryan Cook. It is official, tweets Slusser.
For the record, Parker and Cahill are about 9 months apart in terms of age and are under team control for the next 6 years, though Cahill will be more expensive. Parker missed all of 2010 after having Tommy John surgery, but regained his form and pitched in the majors last September. He has been a perennial top 50 prospect in all of MLB ever since he was drafted 9th overall in 2007. He made a relief appearance in last year's NLDS against Milwaukee. It is entirely possible he is in the Opening Day rotation.
Cowgill was drafted by the A's in 2007, didn't sign, and then was drafted by Arizona in the 5th round in 2008. Billy Beane evidently covets him, and he got his man. Cowgill is a small outfielder who put up good numbers in the PCL last year, but he will be 26 next season. He has a career .299/.383/.490 line in 360 minor league games. It is entirely possible he is a starting corner outfielder for the 2012 A's.
As for Trevor, he could be maddening with his lack of control, but his stuff is off the charts. He really does have one of the best sinkers in baseball and Arizona is lucky to have him. He will be 24 on Opening Day.
I'm gonna say now I'm not a fan of this trade. This is roughly 60% of what I think Cahill is worth. Cowgill and Cook look like "stuff" to me. Parker is a stud and could be better than Cahill as early as 2012, but he's simply not enough for 6 years of Trevor Cahill. I'm sure Jarrod is a super cool dude that I will enjoy watching for the next few years, but this trade slants toward the Dbacks favor in my view. I think Cahill and Parker are lateral in terms of potential, but hey, Parker is new! At least he'll be fun to watch next year. I'm disappointed that the A's didn't grab one more potential all-star in this deal.
Here's hoping Parker is more Dan Haren than he is Sean Gallagher.
Kevin Goldstein disagrees with me, though:
Really good trade for A's. Peak lines up better with window, Cahill good but overrated.
Jarrod Parker tweeted this:
Welcome the Jarrod Parker era in Oakland. I just wish there was a lot more to go with it.
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Is the big blockquote you, or quoting someone else?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I just copied and pasted from mlbtr
as a placeholder to get to 200 words while I added my other thoughts. Just tried to get the thread up.
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
Ah, much clearer now. Thanks.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Deal is supposedly done
Jane Lee is the A’s beat writer for MLB.com. I assume Steve Gilbert does the same for the D’backs.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Article says "closing in on a deal"
Although, I assume that means the players are set, just have to file the paperwork.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Dec 9, 2011 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
The important question
Does this deal vindicate you or the dude from the D-backs blog you were arguing with in that other thread? I couldn’t really keep up.
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 9, 2011 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
No big loss on either
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
Darn. I guess Collin Cowgill is the Brett Anderson, Chris Carter, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, and Aaron Cunningham of the deal.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Yeah, there are extra pieces we're not sure of yet.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
Supposedly.
The title is misleading.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
I really hope the third player in this deal
has some upside…
*Insert something witty here*. Oh, and Stanfurd Sucks.
looks like just a 3rd from Slusser's last tweet
susanslusser
It’s Parker and Cowgill and we’re not sure the third player yet. #Athletics
So the third player is to be named later.
That means it’s Bauer, right? ;-)
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Ryan Cook
JaneMLB
RT @dbackswriter Final piece of #A’s #Dbacks trade is likely RHP Ryan Cook going to Oakland. Details to come on mlb.com.
Holy shit, he's horrible.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Prepare for more if this is what's to come.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
I hope not if this is what Beane thinks is adequate value for his best assets.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Yes but this trade does nothing for the years after the 3 shitty ones
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
If this means Gio is staying put
then this doesn’t suck as much as it initially does, IMO.
Still, =/
Yep, EVERYONE must go.
Except the shitty players ’cos nobody else wants them.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I think, if anything, this means Gio's gone.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
We still need hitters.
This deal hasn’t changed that.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Dec 9, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think this means Gio is for sure staying...
If the right deal comes along, Gio will get moved as well. First pick of the draft here we come!
by Maverick10126 on Dec 9, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
This seems like a fair haul for Bailey
A- prospect who had TJS, plus a “David Dejesus” ceiling prospect?
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
But for Cahill? Damn nice job D'bags
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
why?
dont just say wrong, provide an argument
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
As an A- grade SP
Jarrod Parker is probably one of the Top 10 pitching prospects in baseball. Maybe Mariano Rivera nets you a Top 10 pitching prospect. But he’d be about it.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Correct, absolutely
But a Top 10 pitching prospect who had Tommy John surgery?
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Then why is Molina not enough for Santos?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
'Cause Molina comes with the rep of maybe heading to the bullpen
And there’s a pretty fair difference between an A- and B+ prospect.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Is there not a pretty fair difference between Mariano and Nestor?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
If Mariano is the only reliever worth an A- prospect, then you must think
Santos is worse than him, which means a B+ prospect is a reasonable return, no?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
McCarthy
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Sell high
injury prone, they wont sign him beyond 2012
I've already started collecting pitchforks and torches, the day that McCarthy is no longer and the green and gold I AM GOING TO START SOME SHIT LET ME TELL YOU.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 9, 2011 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
If he gets traded to Cincinnati
Could we call it the Red scare?
"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully
Here is the tweet
dbackswriter Steve Gilbert
Final piece of #A’s #Dbacks trade is likely RHP Ryan Cook going to Oakland. Details to come on mlb.com.
Bring back Hammer.
A future Sam Demel?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
Ryan Cook?
http://twitter.com/#!/JaneMLB/status/145290911205699584
RT @dbackswriter Final piece of #A’s #Dbacks trade is likely RHP Ryan Cook going to Oakland. Details to come on http://mlb.com.
Cook from Sickels
23) Ryan Cook, RHP, Grade C+: Another live-armed reliever who can be useful if his command holds up.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
Really curious as to what the A's could've gotten as secondary pieces if they didn't insist on Cowgill.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
At least he's not a pitching prospect.
Bleah, I hate trading for TINSTAAPP’s.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
this feels incredibly underwhelming
"BA doesn't stand for Batting Average. It’s Brandon Allen, as in the percentage of a hitter’s worth compared to Brandon Allen. Ted Williams, at his best, was only 4/10th of the hitter Brandon Allen is today." - YonYonson
Except we got parker...
How many A- prospects do we have in our system now? 1, and that’s parker…
by Maverick10126 on Dec 9, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
Cahill was an A- prospect and he's only 6 months older than Parker....with no TJS
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
but he is an average mlb starter
not saying he can’t get better, but it seems like Parker can step into the rotation right now. If he turns out to be an average mlb starter, which is a decent bet…then what have we really lost?
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
The chance to acquire a better return that would have been ready when the A's are planning to be competitive?
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
we will get that when we trade parker.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
Well, we'd be looking to trade for MLB ready talent then
Which limits the potential return.
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
glad i could save you the work
just wanted to get a thread up ASAP
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
#2, #14, and #23 prospects
I feel ripped off
Ive got to think this is financially motivated too
Az got an allstar frontline starter who is locked up
for a long time and a serviceable reliever.
Oak got what?
A maybe front line starter, a maybe serviceable reliever and a maybe replacement level OFer?
How did this happen?
It sucks to be an A’s fan right now.
Forst should be fired.
A number one or two starter,
a starter at the front of the rotation
by gratefuldude on Dec 11, 2011 7:58 PM PST up reply actions
If I weren't an A's fan I might support the Blue Jays
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
Go Rays!
Smart front office. Great 3b, small market. They’re the 2002 A’s.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Friedman is just better at that than everybody else.
It’s unbelievable.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Well for one thing he has potential superstars coming out of the minors every year
That eliminates most of the other teams right there.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, seriously.
Although pretty much every pro team I follow is terrible. Futility for life!
"The hard... is what makes it great."
A's love cowgill
drafted him, tried to acquire him a couple times last yr
but that was for ziegler, not freakin cahill
Cowgill is at least fun to watch
I’m in Reno, where he played most of last year. The dude is a good player – fast, aggressive, gap power, pretty good in CF. He’ll be a good player.
"I'm more into going home and being horizontal" - Lew Wolff
I feel your pain
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
You're not kidding.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
I want to know who voted "Yes" in the poll and what was their logic.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't vote but I'm not that upset. He didn't have a fantastic year this year....and I think we have some depth in the rotation IF all our guys get healthy.
I don’t see this as a sky is falling move. Not sure why this one does not bother me so much…..we’ll see what the future brings. Perhaps I have been mentally getting ready for the raiding the A’s moves that I somehow knew were coming. I have been getting ready for a crap season and the idea that there is no chance we are gonna do anything next year. The only thing I am not certain of is whether the trade was good enough for Cahill’s talent. Is it possible that the pitcher we got is BETTER???
AN Tailgate = Euphemism for food porn.
Yes it's possible that Parker is better. But it's not possible that Cowgill or Cook will
ever be star players on a championship team. Well they could be in the sense that Andres Torres and Santiago Casilla were, but it’s really improbable.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:46 PM PST up reply actions
I guess I like the D-Backs anyways after the trade last year
This just makes it more so.
Bring back Hammer.
I like the D-backs because they beat out the Giants last year
"Life is tough .... It's even tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne
Well...
…that sucks.
All we’re getting is three years of service time on Parker, who may turn into as effective a pitcher as Cahill already is.
Cowgill is the latest iteration of a fourth outfielder we keep getting in these trades, and then we go and let them start. He’s Aaron Cunningham and Chris Denorfia and gawd…the mediocrity.
So much mediocrity. But then that’s what we’ve exemplified for the last several years.
It's getting really old
As if Ryan Sweeney wasnt retch-worthy enough, now here comes another like him.
On the plus side,
Colin Cowgill scores highly on the make-sexual-innuendo-with-his-name stat.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
:(
Mrs_McCarthy32 Amanda McCarthy
D’backs are lucky. We love the Cahills- so glad we got to know them and took an awesome couples trip to the Bahamas.. I am on suicide watch
Yay Amanda!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
probably meant his parents
"We drank, we fought! He made his ancestor proud!"
by inspyro on Dec 9, 2011 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
my thought exactly,
followed by, does he even have pubic hair?
by my_cat_max on Dec 9, 2011 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
So Cahill is a 26 WAR player?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
a 4th OF, and a Relief prospect
this deal practically hinges on Parker panning out. Unless of course, the aforementioned blu ray lord of the ring discs are a PTBNL.
Parker is
And Cowgill might turn into some sorta Kotsay/DDJ hybrid.
But Ryan Cook?!?!?!
I don’t understand why the A’s focused on prospects from the upper minors. I mean, Parker makes sense ‘cause he’s really freaking good. But I’d have rather seen Cook replaced with a long-shot C/C+ prospect from Short Season.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I hope the Ryan Cook thing isn't true
Bah, but I’m not pleased with any of this right now.
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
I was hoping for Chris Owings as the third piece, or at least Blake Perry
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Yep,
it looks like the A’s are assuming all of the risk in this trade. Beane thinks this kid Parker is a sure thing. And if he turns out to be another Sean Gallagher, then this is Huddy part duex.
Imo, Beane could have gotten more. At least toss in another offensive spec in the deal..
Re-sign Josh Willingham now!
by sf drift king on Dec 14, 2011 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
Kevin Goldstein is a fan
Kevin Goldstein
Really good trade for A’s. Peak lines up better with window, Cahill good but overrated.
Bring back Hammer.
The Country Music Artist Association vocalist of 2015 is....
Collin Cowgill (que intro music of take me out to the ball game with twang)
ack-A
Häägëñ Dääs
Of course. Cahill has an albatross of a contract,
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
its not a *good* contract.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
At least it's not much
Trevor Cahill, an All-Star in 2010, was sent to Arizona along with left-hander Craig Breslow and small cash considerations, a couple of hundred thousand dollars
From the always reliable Susan Slusser
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 10, 2011 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
But the A's don't have any cash to consider....
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
by OldhamA on Dec 9, 2011 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I think people may be overrating Trevor Cahill here a bit
And it may be more of a reaction that our team is being blown up yet again.
by Pop N' Locktapus on Dec 9, 2011 4:09 PM PST reply actions
It's not that I'm overrating Cahill. It's that even a 2.5-3 WAR pitcher with his contract has
about $20M-$25M of surplus value, and that’s worth either an A- position player prospect or a B+ position player prospect with high upside and other low level prospects with high upside.
I don’t see the great advantage in trading for Clay Buchholz, Aaron Cunningham and Sam Demel.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
I really wish DFA wasn't banned for times like this
I would like to see his commentary on this trade
And actually PL78 as well, for entertainment value.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with one of those two statements
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 9, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
How long ago were they banned?
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
They're both gone?
Wow….I really have been out of the loop!
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
It was some time around June.
I think DFA was close to taking a voluntary sabbatical anyway.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Someone should write a breakdown of how and why those 2 and St. Joseph were all banned
Make for a great read.
I'm not so sure it would.
I think it would just add to disputatious meta discussions. But in the interest of “open government” on AN, here is the story as I saw it:
Both PL78 and DFA repeatedly got into exchanges of personal attacks, often with each other, and also frequently with others, including some well-respected veterans here. In some cases, with warnings and encouragement, they were able to pull back. Sometimes they were unable to stop. In nearly all cases, each protested that he wasn’t the one who started it, and there was some validity to that complaint, but it didn’t change the fact that the exchange of personal attacks did not stop. After several second chances, eventually there came a point where someone had to be banned.
With St Joe it was a similar story, except that he had the additional factor of having been banned and reinstated once before under his own name, and probably a few times before that under different names.
(St Joe and DFA also each would occasionally break the line and discuss politics on AN, which was sometimes strikeworthy, though I don’t think it had any bearing on his eventual ban.)
I would welcome DFA back, but it could only happen if he were truly resolved to stay out of squabbles, even if others were the ones who started attacking him first. I don’t know if he’s ready for that. It’s difficult, but others have done it (notably PT).
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I appreciate your disclosure on this
AN certainly has achieved a lot less meta with enforcing the bans.
I need to clarify a bit:
The shorter comment further up, where I said “I think DFA was close to taking a voluntary sabbatical” was idle speculation (and possibly projection) on my part and I shouldn’t have said it. Although I really did think that, it has been suggested to me that I thought wrong, and I concede the point.
The longer post is the facts as I saw them, and I stand by it. However, DFA himself tells a different story. Those who want to know what really happened should seek out his story elsewhere as to hear all sides. I’d link if I knew where, but I don’t, and anyway it’s not my place to speak for him.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Iam sure his opinion is somewhere on the intertoobs
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I don't recall seeing anything from him on Fangraphs or MLBTR
He’s gone rogue!
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 10, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
you are not looking Free enough
or Sour enough
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I don't mind this deal as much as most
I think Parker could very easily be better than Cahill
*Insert something witty here*. Oh, and Stanfurd Sucks.
That's true
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
If they got an extra mid tier prospect
especially with including cash and breslow a solid reliever
Optimistic on Trade
I think this would have been fair if it were Cahill straight up for Parker, Cowgrill, and Perry.
He's nothing exciting
But he should be a decent 4th OF (i.e. starting OF for the A’s)
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
Ryan Sweeney gets a friend!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
It always comes back to Sweeney
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
not like it could go back to anyone else....
he’s all alone in the outfield!
There's no crying in baseball!
half the size and twice the home run threat
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I should amend this to add
If this keep me from having to watch Miller then I’m slightly a fan of it.
There's No Way
There’s no way this team will be even remotely competitive next year or the year after. We’ll sink below the Mariners and when the Astros come over we’ll sink below them. Billy wants a top five draft pick for the next three years.
What made you think we we're competing or being competitive the next two year?
Or did you miss that the Angel signs Pujols?
"We drank, we fought! He made his ancestor proud!"
I had a plan in place for Pujols.
It involved a van with blacked out windows, zip ties and balaclavas. I can’t be bothered putting it into action now.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
I was just going to have him beaten to death.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
by OldhamA on Dec 9, 2011 4:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The competition for suckiest suck will be pretty good.
Should be a tight race between us, the Mariners, and the Astros
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I feel like the Mariners might actually have something going up here though.
I don’t have quite the same optimism about us. Which is fine because I feel like it’s about time a rebuild happens and I look forward to seeing some of the “younger” guys get a chance.
I'm hoping Beane trades Parker for another team's A- prospect hitter.
This guy is MLB ready, we dont need MLB ready pitchers yet.
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Parker is not big league ready
Needs to throw his breaking ball more and it be best if he does that in the minors.
The monster at the end of this blog.
How long can we keep him down? I'm in service time maximizing mode now.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
If he comes up mid-season
Then he’ll be in his prime in the new ball park.
And could look with envy at Trevor’s two NY Cy Young awards.
Absolutely!
That’s what I’m waiting for, really is the stadium to be approved!
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
Cahill Cy Youngs
Good one
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
OK, but can we keep him down for like 2 years, and bring him up in 2014?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:39 PM PST up reply actions
LOL wow that is a boring mode to be in.
but pragmatic.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
Myers, Montero and Brown
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Parker for Myers would make me excited about this trade
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Me too, except that teams never trade A- position players for A pitchers.
We’d be relying on Dayton Moore’s unorthodoxness.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
I think teams would
if the A- position player is at a lower level then the A- pitching prospect
The lower the level, the greater chance of not making it
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Also the greater the upside.
I’d much rather have an A- prospect in Short Season ball than one in AAA being an upside seeking person
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
but that's factored into the letter grade.
If two guys are both rated A- but one guy is at a lower level and the other is at an upper level, the lower-level guy has bigger upside.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I miss Cahill already
Why trade one of our best players? I an very upset with this trade. We are getting worst
instead of better.
same amount of team control, though
really just getting cheaper.
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
Cahill's 2 option years take him through '17
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
So the only difference is cost
Wonderful
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
Well...
Parker needs more minor league time, at least half a season in AAA, which buys the A’s a +1 year. Then, if they sign him long term (ala Cahill) they can probably add at least 1 more year to that.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'd bet a nickel
that Parker will be on the Opening Day roster.
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
Arizona thought he was good enough to go in the playoffs for them last year
so he should be good in April
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 5:19 PM PST up reply actions
I hope they don't start trading the fans for younger ones....
don’t worry, you’re safe for a while…
There's no crying in baseball!
I will be in deep trouble if they are looking for a younger fan base.
AN Tailgate = Euphemism for food porn.
Not me. I'm getting closer to childhood every year.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
I can't wait till I'm Brad Pitt.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:44 PM PST up reply actions
Because the team we have currently assembled sucks
We have to start over with young guys.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
2 years from now
BB will do it all over again… A’s are the Washington Generals of MLB
I wouldn't mind trading Cook and Cowgill 2 years from now. It would mean they still
had value
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
If the team sucks in 2 years, I'm fine with that.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
Dan Gilbert?
Is that you?
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 9, 2011 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
I don't mind being the Generals
if it nets us a #1 pick in the form of Stephen Strausburg.
Re-sign Josh Willingham now!
by sf drift king on Dec 14, 2011 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
I'm just sick of losing to the Globetrotters.
Them and their silly show-off antics.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Clearly you're way ahead of me.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
by OldhamA on Dec 9, 2011 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe, just maybe, in 3 years our haul for Parker would be greater than our haul for Cahill
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
This is possible
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
this is interesting
last week Baseball America published its list of the Diamondbacks’ top prospects. Only one of the three prospects that the A’s will get is on that list, and he’s #4.
This speaks more to the awesome top end of AZ's farm than Parker's status as a prospect.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
These are almost the exact words BA used.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
They also project Parker to be the DBacks closer
Hopefully that too is due to their abundance of pitching prospects
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
And check out where they project Parker in 2015
….The bullpen
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Nobody likes the trade?
Okay, I’ll just be over here in the corner by myself.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Why do you like it?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
I'm a big Cowgill fan.
I’m doing my homework on the other guys now, so not knowing about them yet could be why I like it
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
So he's better than Aaron Cunningham? To whom would you compare him?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not comparing him to anyone.
I think he’ll fit in nicely to the OF we have that doesn’t exist.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Well yes, Ryan Sweeney will only have to cover half of it now.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
I laughed at this.
and then I cried.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
At least you didn't kick me in the shins
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Not yet.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
(cowers)
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
(cowgills)
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I think Cowgill could be like a 2008
Cody Ross
*Insert something witty here*. Oh, and Stanfurd Sucks.
Uh.
Is that a good thing?
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
I'll take it!
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Nothing.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
high five!
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
I honestly think its not a bad trade
Cahill is likely not as good as we A’s fans think he is. We just all love the kid. I have a feeling that in 2 years we will look at this trade as Beane robbing Parker from the Diamandbacks.
I think the main reason we dont like this trade is that we felt like we could have gotten more from for Cahill
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Yeah,
It’s going to be sad without him but I really don’t hate this trade. Maybe because even Pre-Pujols I didn’t expect much if anything out of this season. Also, I’m assuming we aren’t trading Gio know, and that makes me very happy.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
I think at this point its best to trade Gio
We definitely aren’t competing anytime soon, and we might as well get some hitters so we arent doing this all over again in 3 years.
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Why would you assume that?
Dealing him would still work towards the A’s goal of maximizing production in 2015
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
I kind of assumed it was Gio or Trevor
getting shipped out. Since Trevor is the first to go, I just don’t see anything else happening. Then again, Beane could rain on my parade any day now…
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
Are you not old enough to remember the Hudson-Mulder incident?
I believe the waiting period is two days.
(On the plus side, the second deal turns out much better….)
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I'd love it if he came back at some point
Whether it be to get his curtain call in his last season pitching or as a coach or Spring Training instructor…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 10, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
He seems like a Brave for life though. The next closest team for him would be the Rays
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
Nope.
First trade when I became a fan was Holliday.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
I remember those 48 hours so vividly
Still the craziest time in being a fan of any team for me.
A distant 2nd was the dealings of Seto and Heatley this offseason by the Sharks…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 10, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
It's not that Cahill got dealt
it’s that the return isn’t enough.
by BWH on Dec 9, 2011 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
And for me it's not the right kind of return.
I’d rather have lower level guys with higher upside.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly
This just feels lateral.
Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!
It's like we're trying to win 72 games in 2012 with a tiny payroll
Maybe Beane knows that San Jose isn’t happening?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
He said if SJ doesn't happen, then he'll go into "win now" mode with whatever payroll we have.
This doesn’t look like “win now.”
It kinda does. You replace Cahill with a similar pitcher in 2012, you replace
Breslow with a cheap reliever and you fill the hole in LF for the minimum
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
Someone mentioned that we're possibly gutting payroll for a run at Darvish
This actually makes a ton of sense.
Him or possibly a FA who is actually interested in being the face of the franchise in anticipation for a move to SJ.
Either way, with Bailey most likely gone, Cahill gone already and Gio probably soon to follow, 2 of our 3 highest paid players will be Balfour and Fuentes.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
I'm all for this
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
I wish!
But I don’t see it, honestly.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 9, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
Honesty is overvalued
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
FWIW Bill James projects
a .344 OBA for Cowgill next year. I know he’s always on the optimistic side but is a David DeJesus type of player out of reach at all? I saw him twice last year and he smoked the ball in both games.
by JPShark on Dec 9, 2011 4:31 PM PST via mobile reply actions
.344 in Arizona is about a 112 wRC+, which would make him about a 2.5 WAR player
This would be useful if we were trying to fill a hole in a contending team with a replacement level corner OF. I’m not sure what it does for the A’s.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
The Oakland A's
Where Billy Beane develops talent for the rest of the league.
Parker and Cowgill could be great down the line for all I know but at some point, Beane has to stop shipping out established talent for youngins and try to build something here in Oakland, right?
The Curse of Lombardi
#TeamFireAndyReid
"Stats are for fantasy and losers. Winning is an attitude."
He's trying to put together a team that will peak in the new stadium.
You know, to hook in those casual people who will be coming to games because the stadium is new.
Meanwhile the hardcore fans get to watch a AAAA team lose?
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
OldhamA is that guy from Great Expectations?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
No, South Park.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Isn’t that what we all told ourselves when he traded Haren, Harden, Hudson, Mulder and let guys like Tejada and Jason Giambi walk? If this kind of though process was actually legitimate, shouldn’t the A’s be competitive now considering that he’s been doing this for years?
The Curse of Lombardi
#TeamFireAndyReid
"Stats are for fantasy and losers. Winning is an attitude."
The process is fine; the choices and/or outcomes have been poor.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You know less about A's baseball than you know about Eagles football
I didn’t think that was possible.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Unsubstantiated shot is unsubstantiated.
And who are you anyways? Seriously? It just sounds like you’re mad for some reason. Whatever, your opinion of me doesn’t matter especially considering everything I do gets rec’d. But that is neither here nor there and this is an A’s blog, not an Eagles blog so keep your Eagles issues on BGN.
The Curse of Lombardi
#TeamFireAndyReid
"Stats are for fantasy and losers. Winning is an attitude."
Parker and Cahill are the same age.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Trust me on this one...
Trying to get through to d-jack is a waste o’ time.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I didn’t know that but I’m speaking more in terms of established talent and mileage anyways. How are the A’s ever going to be a good baseball team if they trade away every good player they have. The entire premise of all these trades is to get players who will be good in the future, right? Well not all of those players work out and doesn’t it defeat the purpose to trade the ones who do work out?
I just think that maybe Beane should stop reestablishing the core of this team by trading away all the decent players for unproven players and build on the core instead. And don’t give me that small market stuff, the Marlins, Rays, Brewers, Reds or Rockies for example.
The Curse of Lombardi
#TeamFireAndyReid
"Stats are for fantasy and losers. Winning is an attitude."
You answered your own question.
They don’t want to be good now, they want to be good in 2015 or 2016 or so.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Cahill
doesn’t seem to do much else other than induce ground balls. He’s still only 23 and could refine his command as his career progresses, but Parker flashes up to three plus pitches. He still needs command improvement, more than Cahill, but I’d take upside here. He’s also cheaper, even if Cahill still has a good contract.
by CaptainCanuck on Dec 9, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
WAIT. IT MIGHT BE OKAY.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 9, 2011 4:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH WHEN MCCARTHY IS TWEETING
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 9, 2011 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
I'm glad you're not attached to him 'cos he's going to be shipped out soon too.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
"Duh-duh-duh- duh!!!!!"
:_-0
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
Is there admission for this bout?
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
It took 3 grown men 9 hours to remove the flag from his colon....
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
I didn't see anything funny there. Did I miss something?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
I suggested he check in with McCarthy. He'll put him on the right path.
There's no crying in baseball!
He is a very prolific tweeter though
Something good may come of this.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
Is he married?
Does his wife send him birthday tweets about his saggy balls?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Upside. Duh.
that’s what you get when you deal for a prospect.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
by mikev on Dec 9, 2011 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
Star Wars Legos
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Oh
and apparently Parker and Brett Anderson roomed together in instructional league. (Thanks SuSlu, even if I can’t figure out how to link it because of new twitter!)
There's no crying in baseball!
Good, Anderson can get him settled in before we trade him too.
"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury
post fail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Y91BqZDco
C'mon Beane! Close off the bottom deck and reopen the top!
Parker
sure is gonna miss those beautiful, new-ish lockers in the clubhouse. I hope he likes wet, moldy cement lockers too.
I miss Eric Plunk
Well, that's gonna do it
Looks like I won’t be a baseball fan for the next three years. See ya’ll in 2015!
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
by darooster on Dec 9, 2011 4:48 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
I would gladly pretend to hate the team in exchange for this all being a bad dream
Like Newheart
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
And there were these three woodsmen....
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
I know we got beyond the whole stadium thing in the last thread
but anyhow, I finally got the audio posted of the whole Quan and Company press conference, for those who care. Here and scroll down to “4:25 update”.
Scott Hatteberg, English major.
by Englishmajor on Dec 9, 2011 4:49 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Thanks a bunch!!!!!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
Rec'd for effort
But if I wanted to hear someone spew a bunch of bullshit and try to pass it off as news, I’d just watch Fox News
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
Fair but...
While the deal seems fair, I don’t understand what the rush was. Why not wait for a deal to come along that beats the pants off of “fair”? So you decide you want to trade Cahill— that’s fine — but he’s under control til 2017 so there’s not much of a reason to take a “fair” deal before the season starts. Why not start 2012, see how things play out and if you somehow find yourself in a pennant race because every prospect finally decides they can hit, then great, you still have Cahill. And if you are out of the pennant race, someone is always shopping for a SP and willing to pay double the “fair” price.
It seems like Game Theory is never taken into account in any sort of dealings like this, and as a foreword thinking GM, he ought to be incorporating better timing and leverage into his deals.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
by mrrickyg on Dec 9, 2011 4:50 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Market must have been pretty sour on Cahill
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Then why not keep him and hope he improves his value?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps Beane is sour on Cahill too
and he wanted to dump him now.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
Then he better know something terrible about Cahill that I don't
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
He lost a finger on his pitching hand in a terrible Lego accident a month ago
Shhhhhh, nobody tell Arizona!
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
by darooster on Dec 9, 2011 5:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Cahill was awful for pretty much the entire second half of 2011. It reminded me of
Mulder in 2004 – an impressively good first half followed by an equally impressively bad second half. Knowing how quickly, and sometimes inexplicably, pitchers can loose their form, it will be interesting to see what Trevor does next year.
So we traded for Dan Haren after all!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
Is it possible the horrible infield defense lead to the collapse of a groundball pitcher?
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
Maybe. His BABIP jumped in Aug and Sept. But his LD% did too.
Replacing Kouzmanoff, Barton and Ellis with Weeks, Allen and Sizemore definitely isn’t an upgrade defensively though.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
He hung a ton more curves and changeups, and had poorer "fastball command," in 2011
Hard to blame Allen, Weeks, Penny, and Sizemore for that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Except if he was trying to throw harder to strike people out.
And it just took the bite out of his curves and cost him command.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
True. That's what I love about baseball --
every “answer” actually just yields two more “questions/possibilities”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
also
we no have outfielders to start in 2010 apprenly :)
Ray Fosse thinks Pete Rose is a prick......
ON THE BRIGHT SIDE
This trade hurts the Giants. I want to bury those assholes. If we can’t win I don’t want them to win either. I know. I am bitter.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 4:55 PM PST reply actions 7 recs
I know...but it was nice last year when they didn't make the postseason
I want to keep that trend going.
I’m grasping at straws, I know.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
THIS
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 9, 2011 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
This deal doesn't make sense
It just doesn’t.
The A’s don’t need another Cahill and another Sweeney. They already have Cahill and Sweeney. Team control is six years for Cahill and (if he doesn’t come up til late in the year) seven for Parker. They’ll both be in the same position control and free-agent wise at the same time when the stadium opens. Cowgill may be good but he adds nothing to the team. The A’s can already afford another DeJesus type as a free agent. Breslow and Cook are a wash.
Before the trade was made, the A’s needed a third baseman and any player with power. After the trade, the A’s need a third baseman and any player with power.
Towers, on the other hand, gets an experienced starter with Cy Young potential right off the bat, plus the new team biophysicist and rabbi. And money.
Yes
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
Towers has the potential to be better than Cahill, its worth noting.
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 9, 2011 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know
Towers is a damn good GM. Cahill is only a kid.
who did he get with Cy Young potential?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
A's free up 25+ mill in commitments
that has alot to do with it
still think they shouldve got another top 20 prospect by adding breslow + cash
Cook was a Top 20 prospect
in the Diamondback system
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
Other than Sickels
What do we know about Cook?
He throws a slider.
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
Any chance he will be converted into a starter for some reason?
"You're all like big, fat failure turtles." - Edge
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 9, 2011 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
Sickels had Cook at #23 in their system.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I'm a little on the fence on this one
I like the looks of Parker for sure but I really don’t get too excited about the other two mugs. And, yes, we need impact bats for the future and we didn’t get one. Not yet at least….
Like I said earlier, it’s become “Who we gonna trade now?” every off season.
I just want a winner dammit! Hurry this shit up, tear it down, and build us a f$%^&Ug winner Billy!
“No time for losers….”
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
Color me unimpressed
The A’s needed one more prospect. This move just feels so lateral. Parker may have more upside than Cahill. Maybe. But he just had TJS and Cahill is coming off back to back to back 175+ IP seasons. I’m fine with Parker being the main piece for Cahill. But give me one more B prospect instead of 2 C+ guys. If it was Bauer instead of Parker I might have accepted the deal.
But I can’t. I think Beane is enamored with Cowgill and he cost Beane a ton of leverage forcing Cowgill in the deal.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
You really would rather have had Patrick Corbin or Matt Davidson than Cowgill and Cook?
I guess I might too, but it still wouldn’t have been enough for me. Chafin maybe.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Even if this is just lateral...
Given the new competition, it makes sense to prep for the future.
by Bleedin' Green In Philly on Dec 9, 2011 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yes Beane loves Cowgill
But he’s also 25, 5’9"..really how much upside is there? I’m sure he’ll get every chance to earn a spot.
I'm disturbed by the trend of the A's continuously pursuing a relatively limited number players
It makes it seem like they don’t have a broad base of scouting knowledge.
Do. Not. Like.
But then again I’m really not in favor of trading established, good, young starting pitching anyway.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
Cahill doesn't matter
We were going to be miserable anyway. Now we’re just more miserable and for less money—with a little more hope for the future. I think that was the goal here, and I think that will be the goal of future trades.
We need to sink low and acquire top picks by being awful while we build a stadium.
Another plus of the trade
Cahill was often a frustrating pitcher to watch. Sure, the next man up will be worse, but he won’t be more frustrating because I won’t expect him to be much good.
I don't hate it.
I don’t particularly like it either, but I don’t hate it. Just seems like it all happened really quickly, I have to wonder how the rest of the league views Cahill.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
While Cowgill and Cook may not be worth jumping for joy
We did just get a very hyped pitcher who still showed some decent control and ability to strike guys out at the AAA level after just returning from Tommy John.
Sure, he’s no Strasburg or Moore, but this guy could potentially be something Cahill never was.
I don’t trust Beane when it comes to trading for hitting talent, but if there’s one thing he knows it’s how to get good pitchers. I for one am excited to see what he’ll do repeating AAA this year…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
Sorry, meant AA
So, he’ll move up a level…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
eh
see earlier posts….
IDK, I love Jarrod Parker, but still, Cahill could have got us at least one other C+/B- Prospect
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 9, 2011 5:25 PM PST reply actions
As a neutral fan
I like this trade for the A’s.
Despite his age, just look into Cahill’s numbers and tell me how you possibly can be impressed.
OK, 7.5 rWAR at ages 22-23, batted .500 in 2009
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
Or 5.7 fWAR...
The upside in Parker vs. Cahill combined with the state of the A’s makes me like this one for the A’s..
Yes that is the only bright spot I can think of
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
I'm just confused why this came together so quickly
I mean I know Beane had said he’d listen on anyone, but it’s almost like the first team that offered a proposal for Cahill he accepted.
Either that, or he covets Parker and thinks he’ll be a #1. Which he very well could be, I don’t understand why he didn’t push for Davidson or Corbin though.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
Well then why was everything so quiet on the Cahill front?
Yet we seem to know every team who’s interested in Gio…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Wouldn't be the first time Beane made a lot of noise about one guy
then traded a different one.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
someone tweeted out that this was first discussed last week
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 9, 2011 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
That's still fairly quick, IMO
From everything I can recall, Beane typically will float a trade proposal around for the better part of a month or so before accepting anything…
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 9, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
its a good deal.
Saw parker and cowgill during my time down here. Cahill may just be a league average pitcher while parker is loaded with talent. Dbacks fans like cowgill too, he came up with some big hits this year; easily could crack the starting lineup.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
by thewhizkid on Dec 9, 2011 5:29 PM PST via mobile reply actions
You really think he can beat out Sweeney?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Oh yeah.
Or play them together. I think he can beat out Michael Taylor and Jermaine Mitchell, in other words.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
not a bad trade
Cahill for Parker straight up is decent. pitchers usually come to Oakland and do better than they would elsewhere. Sucks to lose someone that you figured would be apart of the team for a while but Cahill is extremely frustrating to watch and gets lucky. Problem is, our hitting situation is still unresolved. I figure we have 2 hitters in Choice and Weeks but still need 7 more.
Bauer can't get traded and Skaggs would only get sent if we traded gio.
"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."
Bye bye, Trevor-dactyl.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 9, 2011 5:43 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
I don't mind this trade
or the fact that the A’s going to suck the next few years as long as we get a new ballpark at end of the tunnel.
"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
I used to love you then I took an arrow in the knee
by sfniners4life on Dec 9, 2011 5:45 PM PST via iPhone app reply actions
I know that
but is the only reason I have that keep me sane and look forward yet other year of rebuilding.
"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
I used to love you then I took an arrow in the knee
by sfniners4life on Dec 9, 2011 5:52 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I would feel sort of meh about this trade if it was only Cahill. It's like Breslow was thrown in for nothing.
As others said, underwhelming.
Are the Dbacks seriously the only team we'll ever trade with again?
I know BB isn’t too fond of some of these new GMs, maybe Towers is one of the few guys he can work with.
This would be very bad if true
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
We trade with the Rockies too
I just hope the Mark Ellis trade turns out better than the Carlos Gonzales trade.
Bruce Billings!!!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
Poor Dallas
Guess nobody will get the joke when i walk in day 1 with nothing but a storm trooper mask on wielding a massive light saber & a box of legos
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 9, 2011 6:29 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The real loser in this deal is us and the A's -- because think of all the epic making-fun-of-Cahill we will lose. D: D: D:
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
That's what Saint just texted me.....
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
This was a horrible fucking trade
The only way to justify this deal is if the A’s believe that Cahill will never get better. That what we’ve seen through his age 23 season is as good as it gets. And if that’s not true then Billy Beane just stabbed us in the back. He made this trade NOT to improve the ballclub down the road but as some sort symbolic act trying to demonstrate how MLB and Bud Selig need to make a fucking decision about a new stadium.
Again, the only way to justify this trade as in anyway related to building a winning roster is if there is reason to believe that Trevor Cahill will never get any better. And I can prove it.
I was working on a piece that would try to establish some sort of guideline as to the value of Cahill and Gio on the trade market. For each player I would create a minimum baseline, a highwater mark and in between what I felt would be a “fair” market value. Trying to project performance 4 years down the road, especially for such young players, is difficult and I wanted to create a flexible and realistic measure of what could be expected barring either a traumatic injury or a breakout season.
I’ll just focus on the low of Cahill’s performance for now. Here’s what you need to know before wading in: The approximate cost of a Win (per Fangraphs) is going to be about $5 million this year. Cahill posted a 2.5 WAR in 2011 (again per Fangraphs; their WAR numbers will be referred to as fWAR). Trevor Cahill is guaranteed $29 million over the next 4 years, with $13 million and $13.5 million team options for 2016 and 2017. I will hold the cost of a Win at $5 million for the next 4 years… something that is almost certain NOT to happen. I will then kick it up to $6 million in 2016. People have been trying to quantify the dollar value of a prospect for years, in 2009 this piece was posted on Beyondtheboxscore. It breaks down the “value” of a prospect. It uses Sickels’ grading system to rate prospects.
The option years have a value, although since they’re optional and at the team’s discretion fixing that value can be difficult. Using this year’s numbers (2.5 WAR and $5 million a Win) Cahill’s new team would be breaking even if they got a 2.5 Win season (a $12.5 million value) out of him in 2016. I figure Cahill’s new bosses would want to see a 3 Win season before making that investment. (Why did I use the $5 million figure instead of $6 million? Because teams have to pick up player options before the start of free agency! The $6 million figure only becomes concrete AFTER everyone does their 2015-2016 shopping.)
So as my low-end baseline I figured Cahill would produce 2.5 WAR in 2012 and 2013 then improve to 3.0 WAR in 2014 and 2015. This represents, on average, only a .25 Win improvement on his 2011 season through his age 24 -27 seasons. This means Cahill would be worth $55 million during those seasons at a cost of $29 million in salary; that produces $26 million in surplus value. At $5 million a Win, essentially 5 extra Wins for the A’s then what they paid for.
Assuming both options got picked up and an average of 2.75 WAR for each option year, Cahill would produce 5.5 WAR or $33 million. His salary jumps to $26.5 million over the two years, reducing his surplus value to an additional $6.5 million.
All told, a low-end baseline that saw Trevor Cahill pitch well enough to have his team pick up both option years would produce $32.5 million in surplus value.
Using the research I linked above, we see that a pitching prospect like Jarrod Parker is worth no more than $15.9 million. Over 23 year old prospects like Cowgill and Cook are worth $1.7 and $1.9 million, respectively. That’s a total of $19.5 million in trade value heading back to Oakland for a pitcher conservatively worth $32.5 million in surplus value! The only way to make the numbers come close is if you assume that Cahill make NO IMPROVEMENT over the next 4 years AND the cost of a Win doesn’t increase, making it possible that Cahill’s option years aren’t picked up. This scenario, in which he’s no better than a 2.5 Win SP from 2012 through 2015, would produce only $21 million in surplus value.
GOD FORBID YOU THINK CAHILL COULD ACTUALLY MAKE MARKED IMPROVEMENT!!!
I think Cahill can produce a 4 Win season in the next 4 years. (I think he can do better than that, but I figured a 4 Win season represented a sufficient highwater mark.) So as the top end projection (for Sales purposes, as it were) I figured Cahill could produce seasons of 3.0, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 Wins. 13.5 WAR at $5 million a pop would equal $67.5 million in production. Minus $29 million in salary and that gives you $38.5 million in surplus value. His option years would be certain to get picked up and I figured (to be safe) he’d produce 6.5 WAR during those two years. That’s worth $39 million, minus his $26.5 million salary and you get $12.5 million in surplus value. So high end, for Sale discussion only, potentially $51 million in surplus value.
Getting $30+ million in prospect value should have been a no-brainer. Instead you have to scratch and claw just to get into the low-20’s on this return. Even worse, Cowgill and Cook don’t have much left in terms of upside. They are pretty much as developed as they’re going to get and it’s all about polish and refinement at this point.
This was a Fucking-A trade for Arizona. A’s fans deserve better.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 9, 2011 6:33 PM PST reply actions 12 recs
The so-called experts believe Parker's ceiling is higher than Cahill's...
Beane said he wants high-upside guys. He basically did what he said he’d do. If Parker has a good chance of being a better pitcher than Cahill in a couple years… then why not do this? Will they end up signing Parker to a contract as good as Cahill’s? Probably not. But so what? In a few years the A’s have a new stadium and can afford a contract that isn’t as good as Cahill’s, or they don’t have a new stadium and then nothing matters.
I think you’re over-thinking this.
by Brett Narloch on Dec 9, 2011 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Amen Grover.
I think you’re absolutely right about BEane and Co. giving MLB the finger sand saying, “See? We can’t keep our toys because they are out of our class range!”. Wah-wah-wah!!!!!!!
Rec’d.
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I basically agree, but the other possibility is that A pitching prospects have a markedly higher value now
than in 2009.
It’s also possible to value Cowgill not as a C+ prospect but as a 2.5 WAR CF right now. In which case Cowgill is worth $75M if he doesn’t improve or get worse for 6 years, with a possible salary in the range of $25M. In that case you’re getting a $50M surplus value.
There are ways to make this look good for Oakland but the lack of potential impact position players in the future makes it a bad strategy for me.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Entirely possible
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 8:39 PM PST up reply actions
The only thing we can't legitimately complain about w/this team is the quality of the posts on this blog
Thanks for doing a bunch of research and putting together a detailed, well-reasoned argument.
I don’t know if I agree with you and I also don’t know if surplus value is the best way to measure who wins a trade, and what kind of surplus value you could have for parker if you contract him through his arb years, etc. Any time you have a young player locked up for a while you have guaranteed surplus value. I know that you grabbed a $ amount for Parker from folks who put together a great algorithm, but so many things can change that I don’t think that really tells us all that much. What if we sign him to a Cahill-like extension?
But it’s something to think about.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
Right....you could value Parker as a major league player right now and get a number higher than $16M
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 6:49 PM PST up reply actions
What I would really like
would be the actual muppet grover appearing on MLB Network or ESPN to say these exact words to Kruk or Valentine or Reynolds.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Honestly, all I can say to this is 'fuck yeah grover'.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
I really enjoy having you around to do all this research and share with everyone.
It allows people like me to learn a lot. Keep up all the great work you do grover.
Someone actually flagged this post?
I hope it wasn’t me on accident?
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
grover's post, that is.
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I saw it before I replied again to grover's post.
I don’t know if that was a blip or waht….anyways, wouldn’t make sense if that was the case.
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
Uh oh. I guess it is almost impossible to accidentally flag something.
You have to submit your reasoning as to why you think it should be flagged. I think it might have been danbot that explained it a few threads ago?
Obviously fWAR isn't the best data available to the A's.
Regardless – I don’t find it that hard to believe Cahill won’t improve on his 2.5 WAR. He can’t strike anyone out unless he’s facing AA hitters or his curveball is working, which it looks like worked for a solid 7 starts last season.
The massive – MASSIVE – difference between Parker and Cahill is that Parker throws hard. Cahill looked like Nolan Ryan in single A, but his messy, 90-mph sinking junk gets spit on by the big boys. Don’t hard-throwers’ K-rates translate way more sturdily to the bigs, for instance, Jarrod Parker?
And yeah, he had TJS. Pffft. TJS is the new tribal tattoo – everyone has to get one even though they know it sucks.
by sleepingcobra on Dec 9, 2011 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, cause there's no chance he could get better with his curveball
Parker may throw hard (and I’m certainly not mocking his prospect status) but you’re hard-throwing boy has a lower K/9 then Cahill did in the minors.
Gee. Maybe being able to throw hard isn’t everything.
The monster at the end of this blog.
No, I was asking.
Aren’t hard thrower’s MiLB K-rates way less volatile projecting to MLB?
Cause Cahill can’t buy an 0-2 count.
by sleepingcobra on Dec 10, 2011 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
I have no idea about that, but I'd suspect the presence of a plus plus pitch would make
the K-rate more projectable to higher levels, whether it’s a Nolan Ryan fastball or a Bruce Sutter splitter or a Bert Blyleven curve
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
I think there's a consensus that Cahill has a different assortment of pitches
since he scrapped the knuckle-curve he threw in the minors.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Good point.
And after 3 season’s-worth of data, it sure looks like Cahill doesn’t have anything even remotely approaching one of those.
by sleepingcobra on Dec 10, 2011 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's also worth noting Cahill has averaged 1.8 fWAR a season.
Assuming he at least reproduces 2.5 fWAR every year of his contract is probably a bit optimistic. He, after all, hasn’t had a particularly impressive k-rate since single A – and an even worse walk rate.
Based on what we know, I think a safer bet is that he’s a 2 WAR player going forward.
by sleepingcobra on Dec 10, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't penalize him for having a crappy year after jumping from A+ to the majors
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
The big problem I see with this response
Is that when you factor in injuries, pitchers get worse on average every year, regardless of age. And Cahill’s just not that great to begin with – we’re talking about a 2.5 win player right now with three full years of MLB data in the bank. I think your low end baseline case is actually a well above average case.
He’s really getting overrated in responses to this trade. It’s just as likely he underperforms his contract by 2015 and has his options declined as it is that he improves on the mediocre pitcher he is right now.
by thelincolndude on Dec 9, 2011 10:46 PM PST up reply actions
Use Baseball-Reference WAR
And Cahill posted 4.0 and 3.5 Win seasons these last two years.
I think expecting Cahill to plateau at his current 2.5 Win status is a stretch. Expecting him to regress? Hate. Or stupid.
The monster at the end of this blog.
If he's actually 3.5 win player, then yes that's quite a bit different
I tend to go by FG numbers for pitchers because they don’t base it off of runs allowed, the way B-Ref does, but that’s a different argument.
I just went back and looked up the post I was thinking of (a really great post, I thought, and I was surprised it wasn’t more widely referenced). Clearly my memory is a little selective, because I hadn’t recalled the detail that pitchers were basically flat, again we’re including injuries, from about 21 or 22 through 26. (Damn MGL and his post titles…)
Anyway, this suggests that we shouldn’t expect him to improve just because he’s 23, and that in fact it’s not a stretch at all to expect the average case to be a plateau at his current level of production. The issue is how good he is right now. If he’s a true 2.5 win player, then your low-end scenario is actually above average. If you believe he’s better than that right now, then you have a good case.
by thelincolndude on Dec 9, 2011 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
Even if you think Cahill is over-rated
The fact is Beane sold him as if you being right is a foregone conclusion.
The monster at the end of this blog.
If you look at it objectively, it's really not that bad of a trade
It’s a little light, and I would have rather had Davidson and Pollock than Cowgill and Cook. I would have rather had Skaggs, but Parker should be a damn good pitcher. My only big complaint is that it was too early to trade him. I’m confident he would improve in 2012 and be worth more.
Of course, looking at it with a fan bias, I hate losing Cahill and his personality.
No, there is a valid argument that the trade was fair in terms of talent, but it's hard to see how
this fits into a rebuilding effort
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
Uh....how would this not fit into rebuilding?
It would give us another pitcher along with Gray who will come up mid-2012 or 2013. This would give them a couple seasons to develop to get ready for a “2015 playoff push.”
Because in rebuilding you don't trade a 2.5-4 WAR player for a future 2.5-4 WAR player
and a couple of role players. You trade the 2.5-4 WAR player player for 3 potential 4 WAR players.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
This concisely sums up why it's a bad trade.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
That doesn't really work when Parker will most likely be worth more than Cahill will
They aren’t both 2.5 – 4 WAR pitchers. I do agree that Beane sold low on Cahill, but there is no way in hell that Cahill is worth 3 4 WAR players. To be worth that, Cahill would either have to have a breakout season (in terms of FIP), or it would be 3 high risk, boom-or-bust single-A players. I wouldn’t want to count on that kind of crapshoot.
Yes you would get one A- prospect and 2 C+ high upside/high risk guys
Why don’t you want that crapshoot? You might win. This way there’s no way to win except for the fact that Parker is cheaper and may have a higher upside. Incremental possible improvements like that aren’t going to change anything fundamentally for this team.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not arguing for Cahill being traded
I’m just saying that that kind of return is a fantasy.
It's very fucking light
And as an A’s fan you should be pissed off.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Do you really think Cahill is worth, say, 3 A/A- players?
It would have been amazing to grab 2.
Cahill was worth more than Parker and change
The A’s really, really believe that Cowgill can play CF. Know who else thinks he can start in CF?
No one.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Who doesn't think he can stick in CF?
I’ve only recently been looking up scouting reports, but of the ones I’ve read, they describe him as being able to play all the OF positions. It may be as a 4th OF, but look at all the established OF’s we already have….
4th OF means he can spot in CF
But would hurt the team with prolonged exposure due to sub-par defense.
He might be able to do it. I don’t know. But non-A’s sources doubt it.
The monster at the end of this blog.
What Sickles article are you looking at?
From what I see, Cowgill seems to have the tools to be able to make CF work. Or at least, nothing to the contrary is said.
He has a very strong throwing arm and above average speed.
Nevertheless, with his speed, pop, and defensive versatility, he would fit perfectly into the fourth outfield role, but given his performance to date he deserves at least one shot as a regular.
I see nothing that doubts his defensive ability.
'Cause scooby
Any time a guy can hit a bit AND play an average starting CF he gets labeled a potential starting CF.
You qouted it yourself: 4th OFer. That means he doesn’t have the bat to start in the corners or the glove to start in CF.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Who says he has sub-par defense?
I’ve heard the opposite.
Matthew Haas in Baseball America's 2011 Prospect Handbook
He probably won’t have….enough speed to play center field every day…profiles better as a versatile fourth outfielder
Goldstein did not rank Cowgill in his 2011 Top 20 Diamondback prospects despite a system he called an ugly combination
Sickels ranks him below Adam Eaton whom he calls a future superb fourth outfielder
I don’t see anyone credible saying he’s a future starting CF
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Hope the A's scouts see something
Kotsay didn’t really have CFer speed, but he was an awesome CFer.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
He actually did have CF speed, but I also hope the A's see something
almost no one else does
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
He wasn't slow, but he was far from a burner.
He took impeccable lines on fly balls, which made him look faster than he was.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Cowgill's speed
In 98 games in Reno last year, he had 30 SBs with only 3 CS, and also hit 8 3Bs. I have no idea how fast he runs a 40, but those are stats generally associated with good footspeed.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yes it's a good sign for sure
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
The thing that worries me
is that maybe Beane has set himeslef up to be “low balled” by other clubs in maybe dealing Gio/Bailey etc… in further trade discussions. Anybody ever think about that?
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
That's what I'm saying....
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I think more likely the opposite.
If Beane had gotten a great value for Cahill, we’d now being worrying about how the other GMs will be scared of dealing with Beane, thinking he won’t offer anything that isn’t a fleecing.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
That's another way of looking at it.
So, do we get Darvish for Christmas, now?
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
You stay classy, Billy Beane.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Dec 9, 2011 7:12 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I can't read Twitter
What was his exact qoute, Trainman?
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
~
CraigBreslow
I can no longer denounce the relevance of Twitter. It broke the story of my trade…to me.
Wow....that sucks.
Jesus…….that’s horrible.
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I just hope Beane learns of his firing thru Twitter
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
In their defense in this day and age with almost instant info I can see how this happens
Different players being tossed about before it become final and someone leaking out the details. I’m sure if you are on the cusp of dealing someone you don’t want to tell them and then have the deal fall through for whatever reasons so then things like this happen.
Right. It can happen to Beane too.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:40 PM PST up reply actions
Hee
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
oops, I hadn't read yours when I wrote mine below.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I have to disagree with this.
In defense of Beane Forst et al, Twittering is so obscenely freaking fast these days that it’s almost impossible to stay ahead of it. I mean, they have to sign the papers and stuff, then call everyone involved. Even if they’re absolutely prompt about everything, by the time they get to calling the players 15 minutes later, it’s already all over the Internet. The only way you could possibly inform the players earlier is if you call them before it’s actually final, in which case you run the risk of telling a guy he is traded but then having it fall through.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Have you heard of this happening to other teams?
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
There was something last month
in NFL, where a backup guy got promoted when the main guy got traded, and he first heard it through Twitter.
I think we’ll be seeing this more and more.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Story on Big League Stew says:
No! Breslow found out about his own trade on Twitter? It’s not the first time an athlete has learned such news from the media. Every so often you’ll hear about a guy who learned he was traded from TV or radio or even a newspaper (once upon a time). But this Twitter social media thing is kind of a new deal.
Doesn’t list any examples, though. (link)
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Exactly
Also, when Breslow says he found out over Twitter it’s possible he’s being hyperbolic. There were tweets saying he was probably in the deal well before it was actually finalized. He may have meant those.
by thelincolndude on Dec 12, 2011 7:15 AM PST up reply actions
This smells like the Hudson trade to me
Priming the pump to maximize the return on the shortly forthcoming Gio trade.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Dec 9, 2011 7:11 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Starring Jarrod Parker as Dan Meyer, Ryan Cook as Juan Cruz, and Collin Cowgill as Two-Buck Chuck.
Eerie, the more I think about it. Only difference is that all players involved were more advanced in their development.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
So we're trading Gio for Dan Haren!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:41 PM PST up reply actions
Biggest difference is that Hudson had one year of team control, Cahill has six.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Yes but Hudson was a lot better than Cahill.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:42 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't come close to negating the tremendous value 6 cost controlled years has over 1
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Right, in a surplus value analysis Cahill is a lot more valuable. If you're trying
to win the World Series next year, 2005 Hudson looked a lot more valuable in the prior offseason.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions
Cost controlled? Yes. Cheap? No.
Let’s remember what Cahill is actually going to be paid over this contract:
2012: $3.5MM
2013: $5.5MM
2014: $7.7MM
2015: $12MM
2016 $13MM ($0.3MM buyout) club option
2017: $13.5MM ($0.5MM buyout) club option
He’s very likely to be a bargain the next 2-3 years, but he could also be a bad contract towards the end of his deal. If the A’s are really in their new ballpark by 2015, and for whatever reason, Cahill is a back-of-the-rotation starter by then, how valuable is it to be carrying a $12MM sunk cost?
At a minimum, you’re paying $26.8MM over the next four years for his services. That’s quite a commitment. Maybe better than what he would have gotten paid by going through the arbitration process, but maybe not. One injury is all it takes.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
It's $29 million over 4 years
And the “one injury” argument then invalidates all contracts for every player.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'm just saying "cost-controlled" is a bit of a misnomer.
If it were just about owning his rights, that would be one thing. If the wheels truly fall off with a team-controlled player for whatever reason, they always have the option of non-tendering him. Not so with Cahill, he’s going to get paid a lot of money no matter how good or bad he is.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
To be fair
Meyer was a great SP prospect who got hurt almost as soon as he came to Oakland. Hopefully, Parker is done with the getting hurt bit. I have more faith in Cowgill than I ever had in Chuck. Cook is meh.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I read that as "Cook his meth."
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
never watched it.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
Parker's appearance in the NLDS las year
One-third of an inning pitched, two hits, one walk, one run (earned). The only Arizona pitcher who did worse was Brad Ziegler!
Hey, Shooty Babbit is on 95.7 FM talking with Townsend about the trade!
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
just happy baseless speculation planted by A's sources
to lessen the blow.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 9, 2011 7:29 PM PST up reply actions
And it's working!!!!!
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
Our payroll is going to sit around $35M if Bailey and Gio are shipped out
That’s insanely low.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 10, 2011 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Not if they're shipped out for Vernon Wells and John Lackey
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
How will Parker win?
Who is going to drive in runs so Parker can get some wins? As soon as he gets good, Beane will trade him too so don’t get too attached to Parker.
by Charley Thompson on Dec 9, 2011 7:42 PM PST reply actions
Parker will win because his secret identity is Spiderman.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions
Anyone who thinks Gio will be an A at Christmas is smoking crack
Maybe we’ll turn these guys around + Gio for a good hitter, but I know Billy wanted Cowgill all year so I imagine he is staying. I think Parker for Cahill is probably, over the long haul, a + trade for us.
Don’t discount the idea that this might be nothing but a payroll dump. Basically about even in talent, but quite a savings in payroll. We already know that signing mid grade FA’s won’t put butts in the seats, so what’s the point in Billy trying that?
I think Tom Berenger may be our catcher next year.
I miss Eric Plunk
rebuilding rebuilding rebuilding
how bout start building a stadium…………..
Haters Gonna Hate
by Wreckonized on Dec 9, 2011 8:20 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think this may be getting lost in here
but I tried to emphasize it in my post: Jarrod Parker is gonna be fun to watch.
gonna have to disagree...
But more importantly his slider looks great.legit
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 10, 2011 10:29 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'm sad to see Trev go,
But this is the type of trade we should have been expecting. Traded for someone who supposedly has higher upside than Cahill (same age, cheaper money for time being), got a young reliever and dumped Breslow, got a possible starter for next season in our vacant OF. What were you guys expecting?
by Menechino_Incarnate on Dec 9, 2011 8:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Higher upside second and third pieces than Cowgill and Cook.
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 9, 2011 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
But is that realistic?
I feel like everyone is beating around the bush here. How good do we really think Cahill is? And again, you have to remember that it is widely believed that Parker is as good or better.
by Menechino_Incarnate on Dec 9, 2011 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
I'd have liked just two A/A- guys
let them keep Cook. Still, you can’t always get what you want.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
True, but I do get my fair share of abuse
I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2011 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Looks pretty good from what I can tell.
Jury is still out.
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
NEW POST UP
Because I know you just HAVE to hear what I think!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Not A Bad Trade
I think Parker and Cowgill have a lot of potential, and even though Cahill is a good pitcher with a great sinker, I think this could pay off for the A’s. Cowgill will probably be in the mix for a starting job in the OF next year, and Parker may soon be there. With Parker and Gray in our farm system, I think the rotation is pretty solid. Also, I would rather have traded Cahill then Gio.
I might take that bet on Gio
It’s always more likely a player is kept than traded. I’d put Gio traded this offseason at 35-40%.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Not a very good read
Someone tell Trueblood that AZ can keep Cahill for 6 years.
The monster at the end of this blog.
They aren't paid, are they?
And I’ll admit into being duped into briefly thinking he might be competent when I saw him use FIP.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Nope.
And as far as I know, anyone can make an account and start writing. It’s a cesspool of awful, awful writing.
I know a guy who writes for them is a sprinkler head installer in SF
He told me he is paid for writing for Bleacher Report and also a shiny press badge. Money is nothing to write home about, but is genuine $.
IS IT SHINY???
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's more of a bar graph these days.
I need to lay off the ice cream.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
bell curve.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
With more than a standard deviation, I'm told.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I was as stunned
IIRC, Athletics after dark had a press badge also, so it isn’t a huge shocker. He did have some interesting stories about how the players interact with the press, so I am confident he wasn’t blowing smoke.
Me to
I was lured by the FIP and then I read the rest of the article after I posted it. It was poorly written.
Slegna must die!
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 11, 2011 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
Billy Beane is like that stupid guy in your fantasy football league. The one everyone tries to fleece (2 terrible players that I just picked up off the waiver wire for your best player… sounds good to me!) and it pisses everyone else off that didn’t make the trade because it screws up the competitive balance.
Need to free up $ for new soccer stadium?
The overall budget for the 15000-18000 seat stadium would require “up to a $60 million investment” by team ownership and was not dependent on securing outside corporate funding.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/mls/san_jose_earthquakes/
AFC West Assassins...
Two different entities and only Wolff (from ownership) bridges both sides.
The state of the ’Quakes has zero to do with Oakland and vice versa.
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