Banning mikev - a Tragicomedy in (now) Five (f)Acts
by elcroata on Dec 28, 2011 4:06 PM PST
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PrintEDIT: After I posted my FanPost, it was deleted by someone about two minutes after I posted it. Fortunately, I had the text saved. I am not sure for how long this one will be up, though.
(f)Act One
November 24th
Nico announces he will take a two month sabbatical from AN.
I am taking a leave, or "sabbatical," through the end of January.
...
I will continue to serve officially as blogfather, even in my ghost-like form...
* * *
(f)Act Two
December 9th
Nico posts a front page story, effectively ending his sabbatical.
* * *
(f)Act Three
December 10th
- Leopold Bloom and mikev comment on Nico´s unexpected return
- Nico and another moderator flag mikev´s comment
- Nico uses a warning button* to log-off mikev
- Nico claims to have sent a message to mikev, demanding he contacts him. He never specified in which form such a request was sent. Mikev acknowledges he was logged off and saw that he was warned for inappropriate comment, but claims not to have received any additional messages from Nico.
- Mikev´s e-mail address is stored in his account, visible to all moderators and the address is current and functioning.
-
* A warning is a built-in mechanism used in situations where a user runs out of control and needs to be cooled off immediately. The moderators usually only use it if someone's being disruptive in a time-sensitive situation where the usual flag/review/mod discussion process will take too long.
* * *
(f)Act Four
December 22nd
Nico, through his powers as "The Chief Administrator" bans mikev from AN
* * *
(f)Act Five
December 30th
Nico sends an e-mail to Mike, saying that he is reaching out for dialogue. In it he demands Mike comes to his place for a talk, or, if he is unable to do so calls him.
He declines to give Mike even the faintest hint to the reason of his banning. Mike says he is open for dialogue, but feels that e-mail is a good medium to do that, as this was exactly what Nico demanded in the past.
Nico declines to do that, citing his frail health (pain when typing), e-mail as a poor medium to convey emotions and his fear that what he writes might become visible to public (as did some of his threats to other users).
Mike doesn´t see a reason to have the dialogue outside of the aforementioned and requested e-mail, and doesn´t agree to visit Nico or call him. He thus remains banned.
Nico breaks silence and informs AN community that he has reached out but that Mike declined to engage in a dialogue.
Nico discusses the reasons for Mike´s banning in public. Mike has still not received a single word from Nico on why he is being banned.
Blez breaks silence and fully supports Nico´s actions.
These are the facts. They are all either publicly visible or have been confirmed to me by multiple moderators.
So, allow me to sum the facts up.
- Mikev is one of the longest tenured and most active members of the community.
- To the best of everybody´s knowledge, he has never received a strike in all the years of participating in the community.
- The comment that triggered the warning and the subsequent ban is not of a CGV quality
- The comment that triggered the warning and the subsequent ban is directed at Nico, "The Chief Administrator" (TCA)
- TCA was obviously offended by the comment and although he claims that all he wants to do is talk, he never contacted mikev through a mail, although he had the means to do so.
- TCA banned mikev using the following provision of the CG
The site’s chief administrator may, at any time, choose to bypass the three-strikes process and ban a user if he feels the circumstances warrant it. If a user’s offense is judged to be exceptionally grievous in nature, that user may be banned immediately and unilaterally.
And one more time, without any bullets.
A moderator has levied the highest possible penalty and expelled a valued member of our community over a combination of a non-CGV comment and very questionable failure to answer a message that might or might not have been received and acknowledged. The moderator insists on not lifting the ban, until the user who appears to have done nothing wrong by community standards fulfills his explicit demand to be contacted, although the moderator has the means to contact the user all along, if he wishes so. The moderator has circumvented the standard procedure for banning the users and used the powers that should only be used in the case of most egregious offenses. As of right now, said user is still banned.
Whatever your feelings for Nico and mikev might be, stop for a second and think - is this how you want this place run? Do you feel this was a proper way to handle the situation or abuse of power?
Don´t let this one just go - this affects all of us.
1281 comments
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Comments
I don't think it was handled well.
Cover up and crime is always a problem
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Second attempt
If you think that mikev´s banning was unfair and that he should be immediately and unconditionally reinstated, please do one of the following:
- rec this comment (anonymous support)
or
- add “+1” as a response (open support)
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by elcroata on Dec 28, 2011 4:12 PM PST reply actions 69 recs
Is it just me, or did all the +1s disappear? o.o
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
er, wow.
At least all the recs are still there. 58 of them, I should note, in case they too just up and leave.
by whiteshoes40 on Dec 30, 2011 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
They've been banned as well. I wonder what CG they violated?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
Huh? You're joking, right?
I logged out and back in just to check.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, I'm joking. Fret not.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
I don´t see them anymore, either
However, my profile page shows that there are 51 responses to it. Before thinking that there is any foul play here, I am assuming we reached some kind of technical limitation (to me they disappeared once the number reached 50), as I believe this is a first time a comment received 50+ responses.
Or, in other words, we might have broken the internet.
Careful Brenarlo
Well..that'd really suck if it's true
Maybe it is a bug, but what if they were all 50 comments with actual content? Boom, disappeared once it hit a limit?
If true, of course.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It might be a built-in guard against spamming, but then it should only kick in if
all 50 are from the same poster
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
I agree
But we just don´t know. If I had to guess, I would (unlike with deleting of my own post) say there is no foul play involved.
It would be interesting to learn how this works, though, so if anyone with technical knowledge of how the system works wants to chime in, it would be very welcome.
Careful Brenarlo
Strangely,
They’re totally gone. Perhaps you can see ‘em on your profile, but I don’t see the +1 I posted on my profile page….. The recs are still listed there, though.
by Sean Fortuna on Dec 30, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
how odd....
I still see them, though they are shaded on my screen…..perhaps the system automatically hid them?
There's no crying in baseball!
They show gray for me, too.
That means the comments were hidden, but I can’t see by whom. If a person did it, he’d have to go through and hide each one individually.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I don't know about the rest of the mods, but I sure don't have the patience to go through and hide them all one by one
probably something in the system?
There's no crying in baseball!
or direct access to the database
update comment_table where parent_id=1234 set hidden=true;
commit;
by MobiusKlein on Dec 31, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
+1 (let's ring up 50 more replies and troubleshoot and see if it deletes them again)
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
A 51st reply without a delete would prove a human deleted them, right?
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
+1
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Deleting the previous +1 list was BS – shame on whoever did it.
HINWEIS MIR! HINWEIS MIR!
by doctorK on Dec 30, 2011 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
chill out everyone
they aren’t deleted — it looks like they are hidden, since I can see them, but again, I can’t tell if someone hid them, or if the system automatically hid them since they all say the same thing.
There's no crying in baseball!
they are shaded for me
(I have moderator access….so I can see that they are still there, just “hidden”….again, I don’t know if someone else has hidden them, or if the system has, but I’m just pointing out that they are not deleted)
There's no crying in baseball!
+1
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Dec 30, 2011 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
No mikev, no peace
Know mikev, know peace
by Mike Garza on Dec 30, 2011 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I know I don’t post here often anymore, but I do know that a ton of us (including the principals in this discussion) have been here since around about 2004-2006. I know you can’t recreate the atmosphere from then, and you can’t erase past history, but can’t we just get along? In the end, it’s just the internet, guys.
"The hard... is what makes it great."
Yeah, this all seems pretty bush-league.
Everyone put on your big boy/girl pants and get this shit straightened out.
"As the tag line of my favorite dirty joke would have it: 'Keep your hat on. We could wind up miles from here.'" ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus
In spite of whatever policies there are about keeping things private, this has turned into something that, for the good of AN, deserves full transparency
I may have jumped the gun by being the first one to ask about why mikev was banned, but this whole thing has become a huge mess that could have easily been avoided.
It seems clear by now that it isn’t going away without some sort of additional explanation since it doesn’t look like everything is adding up. Whatever anyone’s opinion of mikev is – and I like him – it’s hard not to look at this and not see an abuse of power, even with what Nico’s explained so far.
Early speculation that this was just related to an e-mail address issue appears to be false, and the more that’s being dug up, the more it sounds like a personal matter. True or not, it’s time to air this out and go from there. It looks like it’s running a real risk of costing AN people it shouldn’t be alienating.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 28, 2011 4:16 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
yes. transparency, please.
Lady Jesa
by Athletica on Dec 28, 2011 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
it does seem like an easy fix
email mike, reinstate him. Let him edit the tag lines
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
The balance between maintaining privacy and transparency in leadership can be a fine one. This isn't really one of those situations.
In this case, it seems like maintaining privacy only serves one person and it sure as hell ain’t mikev.
Especially since going outside the normal CGV/3 strikes system is an extreme measure, and normally something that rates that kind of attention would be noticed by someone. With the normal system, we know there’s multiple people involved, we know the system, we know the oversight in the process.
In this case? We’re not seeing anything other than a decision made by one person under questionable circumstances. For the most part, authority in a community relies on the faith and/or trust that community has in its leadership to fairly use that authority.
This situation is punching that faith, that trust, right in the face.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 28, 2011 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
The only time I ever heard of the normal CGV/3 strike system being circumvented is in extreme cases of someone spamming AN, being obnoxious to everyone, etc.
Something where it has to be nipped in the bud immediately before mods can review it.
Even if mikev was banned for the “Notice me!” comment, it’s not enough in my mind and it sure doesn’t warrant a ban without at least going through the strike process, notification to “come talk to me” included or not.
I’ve defended Nico in the past when I thought I saw things being directed unfairly toward him because I know running any site, especially one this active, is a lot of hard work with little reward. But this time, the whole sequence of events just doesn’t sit right with me. I know how easy it is to let something get to you when you have some power because I’ve been in that position before. Still, this is at the point where something needs to be done to make it right and I don’t think that something is making mikev approach Nico before being unbanned.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I wouldn't say that running this site has little reward. Whoever does it should get lots
of satisfaction from doing it, and they get paid as well as far as I understand it. Anyone who accepts that deal is doing it on a arms-length basis and is not doing anyone a favor by taking that job. It certainly does not give that person any right to act inappropriately.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
It's certainly something that gets threatened in cases outside of that
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
transparency, yes
The part of the process the posters here see make the ban seem unwarranted.
I don’t know if there were other harsh words exchanged off-AN, or some longer history of animosity.
I also have an memory of Nico as being more thick skinned that elcroata’s presentation of evidence.
But I also do know there have been Fan Post disappearances with no explanation. (eg, one about sucky ads showing up with sound on.)
Transparency for that and other actions would be good.
eg – killing a non-spam thread that has drifted into bad terrain should not disappear, but at the least be replaced by a closed thread saying why it was killed.
Please.
Whatever harsh words were uttered off-AN have nothing to do with banning someone on AN
I see nothing in the CG that says that harsh words offline are a V
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:44 PM PST up reply actions
it would add to the context
if person A is grinding an axe against person B offline, it would color B’s judgement.
A and B are not specifically the two protagonists in this fracas.
The public words could be the tip of the iceberg in some underwater feud.
Hence the call for transparency!
We want INFORMATION.
Oh sure, but nothing done offline is a justification for banning according to the CG
Therefore it could be seen as irrelevant to the issue. It’s like if you sleep with a judge’s wife, he’s not allowed to use that as justification for giving you the death penalty for jaywalking, even if that’s the real reason.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
I am reserving judgement until I hear from both parties
So, I would like to hear from both parties, and just know I will probably give this the full “Masterpiece Theater” treatment at some point.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Dec 28, 2011 4:21 PM PST reply actions 8 recs
Ah--elcroata's swan swong.
You are banned from Athletics Nation.
You can browse the blog, but you can’t participate.
Kiss my ring and we'll talk.
I agree with this...
On one hand I think it’s important that all people regardless of how frequently they post are held to the same standards. However if MikeV is banned because of a personal grunge than that’s not fair.
Hopefully they work it out and we get the meta out of the system early this year.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 29, 2011 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
I liked grunge better.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Another trade today
Who’s turn is it to be banned?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 4:26 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Me
Because I still think Cahill has no future ;)
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 28, 2011 10:59 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Whatever you say, DFA.
Come to think of it, DFA got bANninated outside of the bounds of the strike system too.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 7:06 AM PST up reply actions
I got banned once.
I said something something silly like “scrotum-sucking sycophants” while describing Beane love…I don’t think my wisdom or lack thereof was talked over amongst the moderators. I was gone. Gone. For a year, I was gone. I probably should not have defended my POV by e-mail. Once my re-education was completed, I came back. But I seldom post, because I don’t want to be GONE again. LOL. But really: why deeply and emotionally invest oneself into a community, online or not, where the whim of one individual can remove you?
by BoyHowdee on Dec 28, 2011 5:07 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Yeah, calling people who believe Beane knows what he's doing that is probably ban-worthy, especially if you said it as a newbie
And the “whim of one” was never really an issue before this. The community aspect of it is one of the biggest things in AN’s favor.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I disagree that that's ban-worthy? Which CG does it V?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
You don't think being called a "scrotum-sucking sycophant" is a personal attack?
Strong editorial commentary is one thing, but that’s just being a gratuitous asshole.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2011 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Only if it were directed at a particular person
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:17 PM PST up reply actions
That's the murky area of it, since it's an attack on anyone who believes in Beane
You don’t have to name people specifically for it to be offensive.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It could be interpreted as applying only to those people with an unquestioning
love of Beane, rather than all those who think he generally does a good job based on his track record. It’s not clear who fits into which category
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
If I recall correctly
I meant it as a “if the shoe fits, wear it” comment, but at that time, on this site, maybe a LOT of people wore that shoe. That was back when we were still enjoying the last of the euphoria related to the Big Three….
It's not clear to whom the shoe fit
Banning a person for saying that anyone with an unquestioning love of Beane is a sycophant is tantamount to saying that the official policy of the site is that unquestioning love toward Beane is a requirement.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Back then
that WAS pretty much the official position.
What utter nonsense
This site was not, is not and never has been opposed to reasoned, evidence-based critiques of team management.
What it was (at one point— the policy has, sadly, deteriorated to such an extent that a lot of smart people got sick of it and left) opposed to was people spouting the type of deliberately obnoxious tripe that you saw fit to spew out, while wrapping themselves in the cloak of martyrdom anytime someone bothered to point out that insults are not argumentation, and that fact-free “opinions” are not entitled to equal weight when weighed against hard evidence.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If that's true why ban a person for saying that unquestioning
love is figuratively tantamount to scrotum-sucking? According to what you just said, it applied to no one.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
That's not what he said, but feel free to continue misconstruing the OP in the most bafflingly favorable terms possible
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I should be a defense attorney
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
Except (and again my memory isn't perfect)
I don’t recall you being there at that time. Maybe you had a different handle? And haven’t you been banned a time or two? Careful with the paintbrush there, Paul.
Do all banned people meet somewhere and plot to overthrow
the government?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
I was banned once, for about a month
I didn’t agree with the reasoning, but I did accept it on the grounds that things had gotten increasingly rancorous around the site and it was worth taking a break anyway (as it happened, the break lasted more like four months than one).
I’m not sure what your point is, to be honest. Whatever my other sins as a poster, which are no doubt legion, I don’t make posts or write comments with the specific intent of insulting people.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Really? "Gratuitous asshole"
is a loving aphorism in your neck of the woods? “Deliberately obnoxious” is a friendly jibe? LOL. I’m not offended; truly I’m not. I think my skin is thick enough to deal with it. But you should look at your posts in the mirror if you think they’re not inflammatory, insulting, and in many cases simply condescending. I’m not saying that’s your intent, either….but maybe you should think about the intent of other posters as well. THAT’S my point.
by BoyHowdee on Dec 28, 2011 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Both of the phrases you quote are, and were intended to be, harsh criticism
I don’t condone the kind of crap you pulled, and I’m not shy about saying so. If you want to break out the bazookas, I’m not fighting with a water pistol.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It's really wonderful that you can
turn a phrase so well, except your hypocricy overwhelms me, so you won’t need the water pistol. “Gratuitous asshole” is “harsh critisism” like “scrotum-sucking sycophant” is “harsh critisism.”
But nice to see you haven’t changed any.
I think it's pretty fair to say that the latter is loaded with some serious connotations.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
So is
“gratuitous asshole.” It really just depends on what sort of insult you might be sensitive to. I, for instance, am not sensitive to most insults from anyone, let alone one from a complete stranger on a message board on the internet. Unless you’re going to suggest there should be a rating system for “serious connotations?” Like “g…a…” is only a 5, but “s…s…s…” is a 7, and anything over a 6 gets you banned, but first you have to throw the bones and see if they all land pointing east?
If "scrotum-sucking sycophant" doesn't make you immediately wonder, "hm, is that homophobic?"
I’m not sure I have anything else I can point out.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
by speckops on Dec 29, 2011 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Truly? For reals?
Not only is it not a homophobic comment, but you have to stretch your politically-correct mind waaaaay out there in order to make it so. In fact, the very idea that one would need to explain this to you is scary as hell.
It can be a heterosexual action as well
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
This is correct
You don’t get to act like an asshole just because you’re offering criticism, and/or because you’re right. Asshole is asshole, period.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by jeepers on Dec 29, 2011 9:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It's hypocrisy in the same sense that shooting someone who was about to shoot you is "hypocrisy"
If that’s your logic, cleave to it! Just don’t expect me to follow you.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I really don't know
what the heck you’re talking about. The s.s.s comment was years ago, and was brought up, by myself, in an entirely different context and in a context that had nothing whatsoever to do with you. I truly have no idea what you gleaned from my post(s) that suggests I particularly cared what you wrote, let alone gave you the impression I was “about to shoot you.” No sir, you fired a broadside YEARS AFTER the remark was made (and paid for through banning) because you wished to …. hell, I don’t know what your intent was. It doesn’t matter. Field strip your bazooka, or water pistol, or slingshot or whatever and make sure it will work for the next salvo. I genuinely don’t care beyond this casual commentary.
My intent was solely to point out how risible your attempt at martyrdom is/was
The sole point I’m making is that in a situation where someone comes onto a thread with that kind of opening, frankly, I really don’t care what’s said or done in response, and if the OP gets banned for it, I’m not interested in the sob story.
Everything since then has pretty much been you being unable to distinguish the rather different concepts “person A is being an asshole” and “person A is always an asshole.”
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Hmmm. I like the word "risible."
Unfortunately for your ongoing meme, I’m pretty sure you’d need to experience a burst of linguistic calisthenics of Olympic proportions to decipher any attempt at even self-perceived victimhood, let alone martyrdom from my patented and printed perspicacity.
As well, one cannot tell from your context if the sin of “coming onto a thread with that kind of opening” was in reference to the ORIGINAL quote (which was not, be any stretch, "coming into a thread " etc.; that was a running discussion) or if it was in reference to THIS thread’s discussion, in which case, (for those of you as sorely tested by reading comprehension as some here seem to be) a calm and careful reading of the text would demonstrate simply that the original banning was not in keeping with the established guidelines, whether or not the original sin was a bannable offense.
Now, a responsible (alliteration cryies out for risible, but dammit you used that one) yet wrathful writer will make a demonically desperate dash to a timpanically intemperate typewriter in order to radically rebut this editorial, and to that, I simply say, may the gods be with you. Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!
by BoyHowdee on Dec 30, 2011 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hee
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
It was in reference to the original quote.
And it was, in fact, in keeping with the established guidelines, because you were trolling.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Allegedly trolling.
I shall demonstrate to the court that banning him was a terrible miscarriage of justice
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Especially since
the first line of defense, and as such easily proved, is that I was a semi-regular poster, and not trolling by any stretch. The fact I disagreed with the prevailing sentiment of the time vis a vis the brilliance or lack thereof re: Billy Beane placed me squarely at odds with said prevailing theme. I agree with the premise a man is best off to not act as his own defense council; thank goodness I have able, pro-bono representation. (And it WAS a terrible miscarriage; children were hurt.)
What was your handle when you were banned,
BoyHowdee?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Even if someone does fall into that category, it's still a personal attack
It has no basis in reality. No one on this site has orally contacted Billy Beane’s genitalia. The only purpose of the comment is to offend.
That’s really what I care about— intent.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Another purpose might be to provoke thought, and to critically evaluate
Beane on the merits rather than to praise him without question.
Also you can’t possibly know that no one on this site has orally contacted Billy Beane’s genitalia.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Provoking thought probably isn't best encouraged by being insulting like that, though
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Clearly it didn't have that effect
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, thoughts WERE provoked
Just not the kind that involved baseball.
Yes, because using the phrase "scrotum-sucking" is well established as a rhetorical device among serious thinkers
Wait, no, argumentem ad hominem is a well-established logical fallacy. Oops.
As for your second statement… give me a fucking break. The person using the phrase doesn’t know it either. Which of the two statements is more likely?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Wait now...to be fair
I didn’t say — or even suggest — the scrotum(s) being sucked was Beane’s; nay, the initimation/implication was that the commentary in praise of Beane might well have been emoted towards the editorialists on this site who were praising Beanes. Sort of a “scrotum-sucking-once-removed” type of scenario. BUT I AM SORRY I DID IT.
I'm not sorry you did it. I'm enjoying this.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
I am trying very hard
to not get banned again.
pretty sure I heard that very opening in one of the presidential debates...
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 28, 2011 11:02 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't know
“scrotum-sucking” as an opening line doesn’t really work for me. Better to bozo early and risk missing out on displays of intelligence later.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Hee
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Case in point
We let Bloom stick around and are still waiting for the first signs of intelligence.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Isn't suggesting I'm a
gratuitous asshole a personal attack? Shouldn’t I be offended?
Are there non-gratuitous assholes?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
Are there situations where assholism is necessary?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Sure
If you’re a Marine drill instructor, being an asshole is essentially an occupational requirement…
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I'd certainly say strike-worthy, but ban-worthy?
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
It could and should be noted
that while it was my first alliteral broadside, I was indeed less-than quiet about my opinion of Beane. I don’t recall making it personal against posters though. But maybe my memory is faulty; my wife says it is almost every day. Ask grover; he was there. He might remember.
Yeah, it was years ago
But seeing this thing with mikev is why I took the “trouble” to log in and comment: I browse this site almost daily, but as I said, I don’t invest myself much. Just thought I’d point out this isn’t the first time an individual ticked off a moderator, with immediate and arbitrary result.
Sheesh...
I’ve been involved in so many episodes of scrotum sucking that yours really doesn’t stand out to me.
The monster at the end of this blog.
LOL
You’d remember my previous life as GM2000 on the Elephants in Oakland blog. If you remembered that many years ago at all. Or that blog at all.
I remember EiO. I always thought they should have made it EIEIO
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It was a great blog.
All six of us had a great time.
Ah, but that begs the question:
Am I stupid because I read it, or do I read it because I’m stupid?
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
Or a little scrotum-sucking
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 28, 2011 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This sub-thread has now reached its climax
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 7:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
(post coital sigh)
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
FREE MIKE V
Maybe if nico wants to keep the meta off the frontpage, he could post an overflow game thread with an explanation?
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 28, 2011 5:08 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Free? I will take two please.
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Dec 28, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
There was an accident.
People were stranded.
Food was scarce.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 6:37 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
BRING BACK MIKEA YOU FKer
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Oh, by the way?
Add one +1, and take away one “something.”
This would all be solved if the A's didn't suck.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
At any rate, both mikev and Nico are die hard fans who do a lot for this community.
I hope both are back in full force.
"Some of us know him as the a-hole who piled into Ray Fosse in an All-Star game (it's why Ray is the way he is folks)" - OptimistPrime
by travdog6 on Dec 28, 2011 5:14 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Is Bloom gone too?
Or is he just hidden away in other threads? I haven’t seen anything from him in awhile.
That's awesome!
Good for him.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
This is an incredibly stupid shitfit
It’s reminiscent of the hi-jinks at Bruins Nation and Halos Heaven, which I don’t consider reputable websites. It’s fairly embarrassing that higher-ups have not stepped in to deal with this situation, as it clearly warrants attention from someone not personally involved.
Someone deal with this. It’s seriously damaging the credibility of the site, for no benefit whatsoever. I don’t really care what mikev did; it obviously did not warrant a ban. End this. Now.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2011 5:24 PM PST reply actions 24 recs
Yes, it's damaging that it's gotten even this far
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
trying?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Dec 28, 2011 10:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You know
I’m not sure how many people will remember far enough back to put this in context but…
At this point I’d rather have the Rev.
The monster at the end of this blog.
you already used your swear this month.
fucking banned
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
This guy?
http://www.sbnation.com/users/Rev%20Halofan ? I know he brags at HH about his banning powers, I think he banned DFA for “trolling”.
page views, baby
and Halos Haven gets views, sets their own policy
by MobiusKlein on Dec 29, 2011 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, money does and should dictate policy within the law of the land
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
Well Said
AN isn’t Halos Heaven, and it shouldn’t fall to that level.
by Sean Fortuna on Dec 28, 2011 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
i'd also like an explanation for why elcroata's first post was taken down.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
by stm72 on Dec 28, 2011 5:45 PM PST reply actions 13 recs
Yeah. Me too.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
I'm almost afraid of getting an explanation at this point.
I don’t want to see how far down the rabbit hole of butt hurtery goes.
MexicAN AmericAN VegAN
Wait, this goes all the way up to Bud Selig?
No wonder it’s been a blunder….
by LoneStranger on Dec 28, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I could answer that
But it would probably lead to my being banned e-mailed.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Obviously, I second that
And if any of the moderators with the knowledge of why and by whom it happened want to share, my e-mail address is correct and working – thanks in advance.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by elcroata on Dec 29, 2011 3:44 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I checked the record and I see no sign that
Elcroata’s original post was removed. I’m not 100% clear on how the tech works for this, but usually when content is removed there is record of it.
Did anyone else see the original post before it was removed? Did anyone comment on it?
At this point, I wonder if it was just a glitch.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I saw it, rec'd it, and commented in it before it disappeared
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 29, 2011 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks.
I see no record of your content deleted, either. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding how that works then. If I delete someone’s comment, it shows on their profile as comment deleted with a date stamp. Maybe there’s another way I don’t know about.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
One way to go about it
Would be to make the list of people who have the permission to delete other people´s posts. If deleting such posts leaves an entry in some sort of a log and that log shows nothing, then make a list of people with permission to delete entries from said log.
It shouldn´t be a long list, I suppose and it shouldn´t take long to ask the ones on it who did it.
Careful Brenarlo
You shouldn't even need to ask them. The software should record it
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
That list already exists.
It’s at the bottom of the page.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
not the second one (people who can hide deleting posts from where you would normally see such action)
Careful Brenarlo
How does that work?
Does anyone understand the tech of this? I just know what I’ve seen.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
It wasn´t a glitch, Mark
I commented on it and Glorious Mundy did, too.
I was able to go back in history and still had the text cached so I hit the post again. It got posted under the same link as the first one, which would not be possible if the first one had not been deleted.
Thanks for looking at it, though.
I read it as well.
I didn’t comment, or anything, but wondered why it disappeared
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
It can't possibly be a glitch
unless there’s a script in the code that erases controversial content.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
my god
You would think Nico makes 100K running this site from all the heat he is taking.
It is a completely thankless job, and he has done the best he’s can. I believe he is a teacher, doing the best he can to help the future of America, and I also believe he’s had more than a handful of A’s fans to his house for food and brew. Sounds like a guy worthy of burying online, definitely.
Leave the guy alone, and let MikeV get himself reinstated, you know, himself. Believe it or not, this is not kindergarten class – grown adults can stand up for themselves in private.
by SeanR on Dec 28, 2011 6:45 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
It seems you're missing the point of why this is an issue that bothers so many people
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 28, 2011 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
let me guess
You miss the F word being said on this site every 4 words?
Wait, no. I know!!! It’s because you are actually deluded enough into thinking the POSTERS on this site are the site, and not the creators?
Without the community sites like this are useless
Look at some of the barren wastelands of SBN blogs that get next to no fucking (threw that in there for ya) traffic compared to others and tell me they are a better place.
by Copenhagen on Dec 28, 2011 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I wasn't sure
if SeanR was being clever or sarcastic or what… Perhaps SeanR will clarify for those of us who have no irony font reader.
The creators?
I’m pretty sure almost every one of the current front page writers began as a “poster”. And do you think you’d spend as much time on AN if you couldn’t comment?
The posters are the creators here.
"As the tag line of my favorite dirty joke would have it: 'Keep your hat on. We could wind up miles from here.'" ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus
by Elvez on Dec 28, 2011 7:44 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
This, basically
Community-content sites are worth jack diddly without the community. Everyone here is, in effect, making money for someone else, for fun. If it becomes not fun, you can and should say “fuck it” (irony intended) and leave.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 29, 2011 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm deluded enough to think that the posters are the site.
There are zillions of sites created by “creators”. Almost none of them has any commercial value. SBN is a for-profit enterprise. Its profits depend on the posters here. The administrators are employees of the company that work for shareholders. I can’t imagine that any of the shareholders are very happy with the way this is being handled.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
Are you that guy who said "Leave Britney Alone"?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
I remember when I wrote a piece on Carlos Gonzalez that was not about Carlos Gonzalez at all
And even though I explicitly stated the contrary, some people couldn´t help but feel that I was discussing whether Carlos was a good hitter or not.
I´m afraid the same might happen here.
This is not about Mike, the person or Nico, the person. I don´t know either personally and even if I did, I would definitely not feel entitled to pass judgements on either one. I am sure Nico has good qualities, including and not limited to the ones you list, and that Mike has some bad ones.
We all do.
And it is also totally besides the point.
I can´t speak for anyone but myself, but I sincerely hope that at least the vast majority of the posters who recommended the fourth comment in this thread or added a “+1” did so because they believe that, to the best of the information we have available, there was a wrongdoing in how our community is being moderated. Not because they think that moderating is without its challenges. Not because they don´t like Nico.
This is not a popularity contest.
I feel very strongly, perhaps overly so, when people´s right to speak up is being unjustly taken away from them by someone who abuses the power that enables him to do so. Now, I do realize that this is but a silly baseball blog where everyone (including, or perhaps even starting with me) takes themselves too seriously. Nobody´s career will be over because they were banned from Athletics Nation. Nobody will go to jail, just because one person unilaterally decided they were not fit for the society.
I know all that.
Yet, even though the consequences might be laughable – the principle is the same. Someone with power to do so is taking someone´s right to speak away from him because he apparently doesn´t like the message.
And as absurdly as this might sound to you, I am not really “standing up for Mike” or “standing up against Nico”. I am standing up against what I think is really wrong in a community that, even though disenchanted as of late, I am emotionally connected to.
To me this is not even as much about lifting the ban anymore. To me, it´s about making sure that we have a system in place that will not allow someone to ban anyone just because they don´t like what that person said.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by elcroata on Dec 29, 2011 3:33 AM PST up reply actions 21 recs
what bugs me is that while nico can't talk about it, he's talking about it. either you go all the way and explain what's going on or you don't say a word.
nico did this with the adrian beltre thing too. “i have information that you don’t have. it’s from a priveledged source, so i’ll just say that you’re all wrong that texas out bid the a’s on beltre.”
if you’re not willing to share why, don’t get the community agitated with a partial comment that seems unfair to one side.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
by stm72 on Dec 29, 2011 8:20 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The whole point of due process, established rules, community guidelines, etc etc
is to set up a system of rules which is more nuanced and fair than “Person A is a good person and Person B is a bad person, so Person A must be right.”
Those sorts of systems have value. There’s a reason why people gravitate toward them even in situations, like this blog, where they are not in any sense required.
What’s the value of the CG/strike system right now? Pretty much zero.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 29, 2011 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Pish posh
What do you know about due process? What are you, a lawyer?
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 29, 2011 6:54 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
"These are the facts."
You really think you know the facts?
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
Nope, I can't
But I can tell you that I am FOR everything that is good,
and AGAINST everything that is bad.
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 28, 2011 7:40 PM PST up reply actions
Haha
Yeah, but the insight you bring is one of the reasons I keep coming here. You’d definitely be missed.
My insight can be found elsewhere on the interwebs...
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 8:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm partial to Mary Steenburgen's use of the FACT theme in her opening argument...
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Dec 28, 2011 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
fixed
I’m partial to Mary Steenburgen’s use of the FACT theme in her opening argument…
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
She gave Steve Martin Head in a moving car.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:53 PM PST up reply actions
Who's Steve Martin Head?
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 28, 2011 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
At the risk of getting banned myself
Might I point out that in the same thread mikev wrote the comment that got him banned, Nico himself made a pedophilia joke.
“I feel like a little boy!”
- Jerry Sandusky
by Nico on Dec 10, 2011 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
If we wanted to talk about offensive comments, that should be considered more offensive than whatever mikev said.
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
by darooster on Dec 28, 2011 8:30 PM PST reply actions 10 recs
That would be a fair point
I’m just not certain how important “fair” is these days.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
At the risk of getting banned myself...
I think Ryan Sweeney was poised to hit 15 dingers this year.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Dec 28, 2011 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
How many of those in actual games?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 8:54 PM PST up reply actions
I have a very complex algorithm that I plug into the super-computer housed in my garage, which happens to run merely on crystals.
In addition to the Sweeney prophecy, it foretells a 2012 season in which Brian Fuentes saves 43 games.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Dec 28, 2011 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
You don't get paid 5 million dollars by William Beane to not pitch
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Dec 28, 2011 9:13 PM PST up reply actions
When did they start calling the girls at Michell Brothers "dingers"?
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 28, 2011 10:33 PM PST up reply actions
it's not attacking an AN participant
tasteless; offensive; but not directly insulting to a particular person.
The question for me is does every similar insult on AN get policed the same?
I offended / insulted elcroata by accident once – but not ban worthy, and something even if I didn’t clear it up, might have been just part of the baseline internet grumbling discontent.
This whole endeavor doesn't even warrant intelligent discourse, therefore...
Keep hiding and backpedaling, mods. The community is upset, and you should not feel enabled to be judge, jury, and executioner of the momentum and energy of this fantastic baseball community.
You’re all overstepping the duties expected of the moderator team. I know this because this shit is typical. It happens at work. It happens in WoW guilds. It happens on reddit subs.
Same shit, different day. Take responsibility for your actions and stop hiding.
"Whether they find life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet." - Jack Handey
by bluthbanana20 on Dec 28, 2011 8:55 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
meh
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 28, 2011 9:09 PM PST up reply actions
Pitchforks and Torches!
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Dec 28, 2011 9:12 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think I speak for most mods when I say
we’re not “hiding”. For me, at least, the real issue here is that I’ve been busy in real life and I don’t spend hours every day on AN. I’m still catching up trying to figure out what the hell’s going on. And I’m ahead of most of the other mods.
There is a definite disconnect in how fast you guys expect things to happen, and how fast we even notice it. For fuck’s sake, it’s Christmas. We have jobs, we have families, we want to be on vacation. I didn’t even know Mike was banned until I stumbled upon it at the end of the gigantic 2,000-comment Gio trade thread.
Maybe that means we need new mods who have more time to devote to keeping up with all this. OK, fine. Volunteer then. Take my spot.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 29, 2011 11:28 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Hell, aside from that:
Until Nico and the mods collectively agree on a course of action, I’m not going to stir up the pot by speaking for anybody else. I’m not “hiding”. I’m just remaining neutral for the time being.
I'm with dan
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
We can haz GOGz, still, pleez?
"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D
Great point
The moderators volunteer to do community work with no personal benefit whatsoever if they go about said work as laid out in the CG, which they almost always do.
I, for one, am thankful for that.
For the record, I do nothing.
I am shiftless and full of plans to grift you all.
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 29, 2011 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Yay Bloomie!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
You can grift about 40 lbs from me.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Nah, I just grifted about 110 off of me...
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 29, 2011 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
I want to go there tuu!
as soon as the knee work is done..
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
I'm hoping for February...
Then the second one about 4 months later.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Google Huddle
You can guys can have like a 10 way video chat to discuss various topics.
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 30, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
Has anyone contacted Blez directly about this?
If Nico wants to keep his head buried in the sand about this, it’s about time to go over his head.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by jeepers on Dec 28, 2011 10:10 PM PST via mobile reply actions
And you haven't because?
Fixed:
If Nico wants to keep his head
buried in the sand
This whole situation has to be far beyond anything Nico expected or intended when he ‘invited’ (nay, compelled) mikeV to contact him. Was this a cool move on Nico’s part- assuming (and I’m pretty sure the assumption is correct) that he was forcing mikeV to contact him because he was annoyed at mikeV’s continuous hostility and belittling of his “power” to write front-page pieces, or whatEVER it was that caused mikeV to sarcastically say “NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!”? NO! However, I for one would be much less likely to visit AN, should AN succeed in getting Blez to shit-can Nico, or even compel him to prostrate himself before we mighty commenters for his egregious error, because either outcome would make it highly likely that Nico would vacate this site, and I truly value his contributions.
Truthful disclosure: MikeV has messed with me in the past, and gotten under my skin, and then asked why I didn’t attend tailgates, and when I explained I was NRAF, was gracious in his reply. I, personally, would be far less agitated to lose his contributions than I would be to lose elcroata’s, grover’s, or Nico’s. But, apparently, I no longer have any choice but to lose either elcroata and grover, or Nico. This is like watching a gun being drawn at a party or something. That said, Nico was wrong, wrong, WRONG to abuse his (technical) powers as a blogfather to attempt to compel mikeV to communicate with him.
Please, everyone, just re-holster your firearms and stand down.
Otherwise: This is a real pickle. It can only end with an out, no matter how long delayed.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
it is a real pickle, WWKRD
what would king richard do
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I thought he used honey
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
You'll never know.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 29, 2011 11:52 PM PST up reply actions
that said, what was the question?
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 29, 2011 11:52 PM PST up reply actions
I asked because I didn't want to litter Blez's inbox with complaints.
I was offering to volunteer if it hadn’t been done. It has been, as I suspected. Up to him now.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
Petition
Please either rec or +1 if you pledge to leave this site forever if this issue is not addressed by close of business Friday.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by jeepers on Dec 28, 2011 10:11 PM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Can't promise that much
I’ll never write another fanpost on AN but there are still a couple folks that pop in from time to time that I’d be inclined to stop and say “hi” to.
The monster at the end of this blog.
It would be very difficult.
But the issue is just going to get swept under the rug if there aren’t any teeth.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
There's also the fact that merely addressing the issue isn't going to cut it for me
And since what I think needs to happen isn’t going to happen… I need to weigh my declarations carefully.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I understand.
That was the other petition I thought of drafting…still may make it a FanPost. I have rare time on my hands.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
That would be a Hell of a fanpost
Almost worthy of making me break my vow.
The monster at the end of this blog.
How ever this ends
for those that have left or plan to, it was nice threading with you. I have no intentions of moving on to a new site no matter who goes or doesn’t go.
I'm staying out of it.
And, boobies.
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 28, 2011 10:20 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
And then be concussed from the sheer rock hardness off them
by Copenhagen on Dec 28, 2011 10:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Worth it.
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 28, 2011 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
I believe in a woman's right to choose!
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 28, 2011 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
Real or fake, big or small.
Boobs are boobs. We like ’em all.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
this entire thread is devoted to a pair of boobs
Don’t ban me, bro!
by MobiusKlein on Dec 29, 2011 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Sometimes your charts are even better than those of dan, and elcroata.
You be a genius!
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
My genius is as an aggregator, not a creator.
Google image search FTW.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Don't go all techie on me, please!
Your genius is in the application.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
One more for the good doctor
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 29, 2011 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
What ink?
"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D
the three ounces of eyeliner... THAT paint!
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
Please either +1 or rec this or pledge to leave this site forever if
the mods don’t give us free tacos.
We got free tacos at the UNLV game tonight.
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 28, 2011 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
I've been meaning to make it down there sometime
I’ve heard the Thomas & Mack Center is amazing. Considering heading down for the MWC Tourney.
"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully
Meh.
It’s an old building. But it gets noisy pretty fast.
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 29, 2011 8:10 AM PST up reply actions
do the tacos come with boobies?
if so, +1
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 29, 2011 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
I guess we have to go through one of these messes every year
Sadly, this is more interesting than the team right now.
Just in general, though, I tend to be pretty forgiving towards occasionally jerk-like remarks, if the poster has an established history – and, perhaps, a penchant for wiseacre comments. (The “Notice Me!” post would seem to fall into the latter category, if that’s really what the ban was about.)
This reminds of why I’m so glad I declined the invitation to join the group that makes decisions about strikes and bans many years ago.
Hi bear88!!!
If only this issue was as simple as calling strikes.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Actually, given that umpires blow about one pitch in five, I'd say calling strikes isn't exactly an easy task...
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
The best solution I can think of is that if Nico banned mikev then mikev should get to ban Nico...
but its okay, Nico doesn’t even have to write to mikev. He’ll get banned anyway. mikev will take care of that for him, regardless.
It would be nice if AN was a democracy, not a corporate site.
That’s not the case though, unfortunately.
If it was, danmerqury would be the blogfather and none of this sh!t would have ever happened.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 7:16 AM PST up reply actions
Let's all take a step back
and remember that this meta back and forth reflects very poorly on this website and often serves to drive people (old and new potential ones) away who could participate and bring new energy to the table, but can’t or won’t because of internal dirty-laundry airing as expressed in this thread, itself the most highly visible rec’d Fanpost right now.
I am working on a resolution to this with all the appropriate people and doing my best to get it resolved amicably and acceptably so we can go back to the real bitching and complaining… about how the Athletics are going to win 20 games a year until they are allowed to move. Stay tuned and let’s give everybody involved the benefit of the doubt at least for now, OK?
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 28, 2011 11:14 PM PST reply actions 11 recs
I always like to think that cooler heads will prevail
in situations like this.
I’m sometimes disappointed, but glad to hear you’re on the case.
by bear88 on Dec 28, 2011 11:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ditto to this.
[We are] working on a resolution to this with all the appropriate people and doing [our] best to get it resolved amicably and acceptably so we can go back to the real bitching and complaining… about how the Athletics are going to win 20 games a year until they are allowed to move. Stay tuned and let’s give everybody involved the benefit of the doubt at least for now, OK?
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
i think too little, too late, folks. but thanks for trying. :(
Lady Jesa
by Athletica on Dec 28, 2011 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
It's never too late
People need to A) raise hell, B) maintain perspective. Ya gotta have balance. Don’t go off all half-cocked and talk about scrotums and such.
Shouldn't that be "scrota"?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 28, 2011 11:57 PM PST up reply actions
las scroatas?
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 29, 2011 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
Hi grover...I miss you!
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
Been busy
Plus, you’re usually too cheerful for the state o’ mind I’ve been inhabiting lately.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Even I have to admit defeat occasionaly. Cheerful is pretty hard around these parts, these days.
You okay?
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:42 PM PST up reply actions
Not really
But chatting with you always brings a smile, so thank you for that.
The monster at the end of this blog.
:-(
I’m sorry.
If you ever want to chat; hit me up. I can’t solve problems, but I can listen. I hope it turns around.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:47 PM PST up reply actions
But I'm glad I got to say Hi before stuff really hits the fan
Hope things are going good on the home front.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Things are good there...it's this family that's falling apart. :-(
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
Don't be sad. Stuff like this happens in my family all the time. We get through it.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:01 AM PST up reply actions
EN, I have no issue with you so please don't take this the wrong way.
Hell no.
The time for “the benefit of the doubt” has long passed. If I was mikev you couldn’t pay me to come back after this crap. If you’re really worried about losing “new energy” from the table then you have to focus on what is really draining away the lifeblood of this website and it ISN’T someone like elcroata writing a fanpost calling bullshit on an outrageous act.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 11:38 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
But how about benefit of the doubt for the other people behind the scenes,
who are really trying.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
I'm sure you are
But from where I sit there’s only one move that “fixes” this and I don’t think you have the power to make that call.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 28, 2011 11:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
it's very very imporatant to remember
that this is uncharted territory, what this has become as a website is straining at the limits of the previously-largely-anonymized interactions one might have expected from the internet. The truth is that the adversaries in this particular situation, as well as so many of us in here right now, know each other and have broken bread together many times. The two people in question, one has been in the other’s living room more than once. This has led to a very high-stakes situation that requires a tone and timbre and sensitivity of leadership skills that are largely unexplored by anyone as of yet in a position of “authority,” such as it is, over a website on the internet like this. It’s important not to get out over our skiis and be forgiving of this reality, no matter what Maginot Line or Rubycon we perceive has been crossed and obliterated, never to experience forgiveness or r’approchement.
I say it over and over: the real substantiation of us as human beings lies not in the quantity of the challenges we face but in the quality of the responses and reactions we form based on those challenges. This was never more true than in this situation, so I’d ask that everyone take a step back from the fire of this and let the people who can take the initiative to reach a resolution amicable to all parties.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 28, 2011 11:58 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
It doesn't sound to me like it's only a spat between two people anymore
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
it's not
it speaks to greater issues but those have been in want of addressing for a long time and I am working hard on doing that with the people who hold the power here right now. Just give me some time and try to temper your reactions to this admittedly bad situation so this doesn’t completely go the way of all flesh as a community all of us have built for 8 years now.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 12:01 AM PST up reply actions
I appreciate that you're trying to fix things but you allude to a fundamental
problem in this comment:
I am working hard on doing that with the people who hold the power here right now
AND
community all of us have built for 8 years now
If the power is held by someone other than the “community”, how tenable is that situation? From where I sit, it looks like the power IS in the hands of the “community” whether the people you reference as “hold[ing] the power” know it or not.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
this is how we find out what we want and make the necessary alterations
to provide a better and more inclusive environment that emphasizes justice and community values. Like i said, the way this blog is is kind of at the edge of “blog” ness and has become more attached to stakes one might associate with a social network in a lot of significant ways. This strains the limitations of both community particpants and community leadership in unprecedented ways that require we reach out to each other with a higher degree of dignity and clarity than it otherwise would.
I’m working on it, but in the interim here just try to see it as growing pains and an addressing of issues that come up that are somewhat uncharted territory for an internet site and more along the lines, as someone above said, of a workplace or a housing project.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 12:13 AM PST up reply actions
Justice. Community values. Dignity. Clarity.
The common thread to all those ideals is trust. Trust between the leadership and the participates. But trust is earned, not given and I’m trying to help you here when I say in no uncertain terms that Nico has destroyed whatever trust he had established as the head of this community.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 12:18 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
that's understandable
all we ask is that you not give in completely to that impulse to react with permanent dismissal and remain, in some way, a member of this community because your participation is more highly valued than perhaps you know or can believe.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
I'm flattered, truly
You make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
I don’t trust Nico. I don’t trust him to do right by this community. I love AN. I have so many good memories of my time spent here. I’ve made friends here. I’ve learned so much. I feel like I’ve helped shape what it is today and it’s a powerful sense of ownership that I just can’t shake.
Give me someone in charge that I can trust.
Please.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 12:38 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I’m talkin’ about friendship. I’m talkin’ about character. I’m talkin’ about – hell. Leo grover, I ain’t embarrassed to use the word – I’m talkin’ about ethics.
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 29, 2011 12:22 AM PST up reply actions
nice.
"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang
by King Richard on Dec 29, 2011 12:27 AM PST up reply actions
You got references? You been to college?
We only take yeggs what’s been to college, ain’t that right, Bloom?
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 30, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I appreciate what you're doing, EN
Thanks and good luck.
by coffee roaster on Dec 29, 2011 7:51 AM PST up reply actions
I think it was Kyli who said
that the basis of this community is trust and Nico’s action was like a punch in the face to that trust. If he can’t take being the butt of the joke on occasion then he shouldn’t post all over every thread. Odds are, you post enough and the day’s going to come when you’re going to say something that 30 seconds later you’ll be wishing you could delete.
Don’t ask mikev to turn the other cheek here. Don’t ask ME to lower my guard.
When someone is taking shots at you the only sensible course of action is to remove the threat. AN has always been a benevolent dictatorship; Nico crossed the line. If you want a tyrant running the place then be my guest. But you’ll pay for it in lost content and a decline in the “new energy” you seek.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 12:13 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I get that
I don’t disagree that lines have been crossed, but what I’m trying to say to you is that those lines are sort of unprecedented lines for a blog, given that the players mostly know each other beyond the guises of their screen names. So what’s required, given the animosities that have come bubbling to the surface from Nico from his perspective as well as the unhappiness being expressed from yours, is a coming together to establish better and more amenable community structures so that those animosities can be in some significant ways resolved. I know that sounds impossible right now and I get that you’re deeply offended and I don’t even really blame you, but i am asking you to suspend your disbelief with it all and see above the hedgerow of your own frustration and impulse to react so cooler heads can prevail and we can make this thing work better for all concerned.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 12:18 AM PST up reply actions
No.
If you had stepped in the day this all went down then maybe, maybe I’d agree to your suggested course of action. I’ll make this simple. Can Nico. Put anyone else in charge. If it’s Bloom or BBG I’ll back them 100% in every thread they’re in where they’re talking about the shape and structure of the community. (As long as I’m actually online at the time.)
I give you my word on that.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 12:27 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I regret not acting sooner
I was wrong in thinking it would just blow over and to be honest it was the holidays and I was busy with other stuff.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 12:33 AM PST up reply actions
We all got regrets, EN
It’s the actions we take that drive us forward.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Again, it doesn't sound to me like this is an isolated incident.
If it were it probably would have been resolved quickly. The problem seems to have been simmering for a long time. it sounds to me like people think they hold “power” that they really don’t have. What a site administrator, moderator, writer or any other officer or worker have is responsibility. With that responsibility comes the authority required to do his/her job. Authority required to do your job is not “power”.
The power always lies in the hands of the consumer — whether that is a paying customer in a business, a voter in a political entity or a participant in a website. If the officers of this website or SB Nation ever thought they had any actual “power” they were sadly mistaken. I hope they realize it now.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:42 AM PST up reply actions
It's not.
DFA was also banned outside the guidelines of the 3 strikes system.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 7:24 AM PST up reply actions
And many others have been threatened with it
Like me
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Dec 29, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The fact that EN used the word "power" in describing
the role of officers, tells me that there’s a culture where the customer is a “subject” and the officer is an authority figure. What you and GS have just posted reinforces that impression. It’s an incorrect impression and one that does not bode well for this business.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
In almost every other SBN blog
it is routine that the blogparent has absolute control. The only reason this has even come up is because AN has aspired to be more than that. We have a pseudo-democratic system from which lapses can happen. On most blogs there is no three-strikes system due process that someone can complain about not getting. On most blogs the rule is simple “if I don’t like you, I ban you.”
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
So you're advocating that system? That would be
fine with me. But “pseudo” anything is a farce.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
No, of course not.
AN is what it is because it does aspire to be more. That is worth saving, and EC is right to lobby for better freedom and transparency.
I just think it’s ironic that all the shit Nico is taking for being a despot has come about as a direct result of him trying not to be a despot.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 29, 2011 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I see how that might be ironic.
But a conscious decision to share banning responsibility implies that not all decisions made will be ones you like or agree with.
If ultimately the administrator wants absolute authority to ban people he/she should just say so. It apparently works fine at other SBN blogs.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
It doesn't work fine.
I got banned from DRaysBay for being “a fake woman.”
They like to ban real women there, too.
Silver+Black Pride used to be “No Homo Pride”
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
It works fine in the sense that shareholders
in the company that owns SBN think it works fine and they’re not breaking any laws. It’s fine with me since I don’t care about DRB.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
wait what
How can you get banned over that?
"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully
That's inaccurate
Despotic blogfathers who act despotically (see: Nestor, Rev Halofan) take plenty of shit for it; you just don’t see it on the blogs themselves because they are heavily censored. (On the other hand, you’ll take plenty of shit for it on Cal Golden Blogs’s open threads…)
The fact that criticism is occurring outside of public view does not mean that it is not real.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Does that effectively serve as advertising
for HH?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
You're right.
What I really meant to highlight as ironic is the fact that all this debate becomes a gigantic topic right here on the forum.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
So does AN continue to aspire?
Or do we stop?
You can’t have a community (with all its glorious idealistic meanings) run by a tyrant.
Do you want the tyrant or the community?
Make a choice.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well you can have a community run by a tyrant
if that’s what the community wants. Apparently it works at other SBN blogs. You just may get a different community than the one that’s here now.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
is AN still the most heavily tracked sports blog? seems like the democratic way is better than the tyrannical way?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Yes and BTF. I guess you could include
the comments part of ESPN and Yahoo!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Not a community in the manner that iglew speaks of
Are we going to accept a tyrant and give up the idealized vision many have for AN?
It’s certainly a choice and now seems to be the time to make it.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I think the tyrant model is simpler and
could well work. BTF basically has that model with Furtado in charge. Same with other SBN blogs. Why not move to it, and just live with a more docile community that makes the administrator more comfortable?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Athletics Nation Green is PEOPLE
Insta-bans are good for some things – spammers, new members who turn out to be trolls, old members who go bananas, and post hundreds of comments.
They are bad for other things, like grudges between members and moderators. A strike should suffice at the most.
by MobiusKlein on Dec 29, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well sure, the United States is PEOPLE
If the rules are that the administrator has the right to make “insta-bans” in any instance he/she chooses, whether “grievous” or not, then that should be outlined in the CG.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
yes
I agree with you.
What’s funny to me is that folks are so much more civil in the AN day parking lot tailgate. Even Nico, many blessing on his shadow.
i think this is what makes AN special. people have relationships online and offline.
by the way, i still have your cooking tongs (tee hee).
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
It would also have the advantage of eliminating
the need for moderators. It’s a much simpler system.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
The situation with DFA was very different from this.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Care to elaborate?
Even if the specifics of the case were different, is it fair to say that he was banned extrajudically, for something other than the “grievous” conduct required for such an action?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
Sure.
With DFA there had been a great deal of discussion among the mods about banning him long before it ever happened. Some supported a ban before it happened. Some of the discussion was about the failings of the three-strike system whereby it was possible for a person to be a disruptive influence without technically violating any CGV. It was a difficult problem and I’m not sure everything was perfect, but it was a process.
With Mike, and here I’m speaking only for myself, it came out of the blue and he was banned before I even knew what was going on. And as of this point I don’t see why the three-strikes system couldn’t have worked here.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Did the "disruptive influence" rise to the level of "grievous"
conduct? If you’re saying that it didn’t even violate the CG, then I’m having a hard time seeing how it would be “grievous”.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
What I don't get is how a DFA or PT can be labelled a long-term disruption
for having strong baseball opinions they’ll defend tooth and nail, and that a long-term rationale can be used to ban these people even when they haven’t violated a CGV.
Meanwhile its par for the course for the site admin to gratuitously make (non-baseball) jokes about shit like pedophilia and gay people, and if you go back far enough, beastiality. This has been going on since I started reading AN, and these one-liners are a more conspicuous aspect of Nico’s front-page contributions than actual baseball analysis. And this is the same person who had the nerve to ask people to stop swearing, and plays a role in moderating AN’s ban on politics.
This seems like a double-standard, and its why it doesn’t sit well with me when someone points out “mikev had been taking shots at Nico for a while.” I would always want someone who says the shit Nico does to have shots taken at them. It worries me that once again we’ll get the same “long-term distraction to the community” excuse even though said excuse is coming from an administration that apparently condones offensive comments as long as they come from the blogfather.
And I’m no prude… and certainly mikev isn’t either. But the difference is Nico’s vulgarity is frequently homophobic and violent for no other reason than to gratify Nico (and this is a baseball site, remember). Meanwhile, mikev’s transgression is criticizing Nico in this particular instance. More generally, mikev is at least topical whereas Nico is like a series of non-sequiturs randomly dropped into a baseball discussion
And when Nico does get around to talking baseball its usually pretty light. He doesn’t use concrete evidence to back up his opinions. Generally he’ll take commonly held views and couch them in his own warped sense of humor. So yes, it does come across as a cry for attention, to me anyway. Its someone who doesn’t know much about baseball trying to get noticed for being clever. This is the same person who once said he didn’t believe in WAR, which is sort of like not believing in socks, or the number seven.
by Aufheben on Dec 29, 2011 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Here's the difference
The one guy is sort of comically depraved, the other two guys are tremendously polarizing and often make/made others feel small or stupid.
Pick your poison.
Often make/made others feel small or stupid
is exactly right. And think that being right actually justifies that kind of behavior towards other humans.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
People can only make someone feel small
or stupid if a person lets them. No one has to let condescending comments hurt them. Just reply in kind, or use rapier sarcasm. That’s always fun.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
Bullshit.
Only small people need to add being an asshole to being right.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by jeepers on Dec 29, 2011 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Maybe, but no one needs to let it
get to them. People call me stupid all the time and I still have an inflated ego.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That said, it's very easy to be right while not being a condescending jerk about it
It’s also part of simply being civil toward others, but some people take an attitude of “Why should I worry about that?” or “Why do I have to be the better person? The other guy’s being a dick too.”
It’s easy to say “don’t react to condescension with anger or hostility,” harder for most people to actually do.
Put another way, at times people resort to debate tactics to browbeat others instead of simply having a conversation centered around disagreement.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 29, 2011 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If you react in kind, the terrorists have won
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And yes, I know these are points that have been brought up many times before
Nothing new, just tossing it out there again.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I think that's too simplistic a view.
I do not get big swellings from mosquito bites nor anaphylactic reaction from bee stings. That doesn’t mean other people don’t.
Not everyone is like you, WC. And I think it is facile and unsound psychological theory to say that they can just choose to not be that way.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
See. Your calling my post facile and
unsound doesn’t bother me in the least.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:01 AM PST up reply actions
In many instances
it is impossible to demonstrate that someone is wrong without offending them in the process. Being wrong is inherently unpleasant, and it’s more unpleasant the more deeply held the belief is.
I don’t doubt that there are better and worse ways to tell someone that they’re wrong, but if you actually look at the foodfight threads, they’re almost always the result of either long-standing personal grudges or overreactions by the person being refuted.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Well there's telling someone they're
wrong and there’s implying that they’re stupid or ignorant. I can deal with either since I’m old and have been told all kinds of things. I think some others might be more easily offended.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
The disproof of a deeply held yet irrational belief,
in and of itself, creates the implication that the person holding that belief is stupid or ignorant.
It’s more or less a direct logical corollary. While it’s true that “the earth isn’t flat, idiot” creates, more strongly than “the earth isn’t flat”, the implication that the believer in a flat earth is an idiot… both of them do it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Not true. Lots of very smart people
have very wrong deeply ingrained beliefs on specific issues, because the truth is counter-intuitive and the issue has not been at the forefront of that person’s mind.
For example it’s a commonly held belief among non-professional investors that it’s more risky to hold high volatility small cap international stocks than cash or bonds, when there’s lots of evidence to show that a diversified portfolio that includes high volatility international stocks is less risky than one that holds either no stocks, only low volatility stocks, or only domestic stocks.
Similarly a person who deeply believed after 2010 that Trevor Cahill was a vastly superior pitcher to Justin Masterson were basing that belief on intuitively appealing idea that the guy who allowed the fewest runs per game was the better pitcher, even though that is frequently not the case.
Such a person is not necessarily stupid because they might be a rocket scientist for all we know, and they’re not necessarily ignorant because they may be very well versed in a wide spectrum of subjects. They just don’t happen to be aware of the relevant evidence in this particular issue.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm not saying the implication can't be rebutted
Yes, it is true that plenty of smart people hold irrational beliefs, especially on subjects they haven’t thought much about.
But if I learn someone believes in a flat earth, that instantly lowers my a priori guess as to their intelligence and knowledge level by a significant margin. If I later learn they design complex software, that would raise it again (but my estimate would still be lower for them than for a person with the same profession who does not believe in a flat earth).
Even more importantly, they KNOW it does, and will typically react aggressively in response to being disproved, as a way of protecting their self-respect. This is really the key point— people know being wrong makes them look bad, losing face is damaging to people’s future prospects, and thus aggression is an understandable response.
I’m not excepting myself from this, by the way.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Ah I see a SSS problem there.
You could be evaluating Albert Pujols on one game.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Or course,
a current run of 5 consecutive seasons without a winning record, in a division until very recently deemed by many “AL Worst”, as well as projected losses over the next 2-3 years suggesting the elusive winning season is lo, many many moons in the future, could very easily be presented as an example of a management style that purports, in allegorical fashion, that the earth is, indeed flat. In which comparitive case we would indeed see outrage and puffery exhibited by some, as the very idea of this particular emporer having no clothes would challenge said emperors fans to disgard their deeply held yet irrational beliefs.
by BoyHowdee on Dec 30, 2011 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Conclusion doesn't follow from the premise
The A’s should be about 15 wins worse than the Angels in any given season, based solely on payroll. There’s no real reason, given the rules of baseball as they’re currently constructed, that A’s fans SHOULD have any hope.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Regardless of your views on the quality of anyone's
contribution, I don’t see where being a “long-term disruption” is not allowed in the CG, and I also don’t see where it’s defined. If it comes down to “is this guy’s contribution worthwhile?” that’s a pretty arbitrary guideline.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
The existence of lightness on AN,
in my opinion, is a good thing.
And when Nico does get around to talking baseball its usually pretty light. He doesn’t use concrete evidence to back up his opinions.
There are many here who think AN would be a better place if people were only allowed to make rational comments backed up with data.
Maybe it would, but it would surely be smaller and less inclusive. It’s an example of what I mean by tightly moderated forums being more narrow and uniform.
I like that AN has room for both serious and non-serious comments.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 30, 2011 2:04 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Yes, that's another thing
Opinions about baseball aren’t required to be backed up with extensive analysis, concrete evidence and so on just to satisfy everyone here. The main people who want that are the ones who seem more interested in debating others, when a lot of people are just here to talk about the team they love.
There’s room for everything, regardless of what some would say about that.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
What bothers me, and I suspect others with similar views
is not the mere whimsical expression of data-free opinions, which is basically harmless (and, in fact, something that I and most “statheads” do constantly).
No, what is bothersome is the direct or implied assertion that those opinions are equally valid, in actual debates that the person has willingly inserted themselves into, to opinions backed by extensive analysis and concrete evidence.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Well, yeah. That'd be a different story.
And, as someone who’s been involved in some of that in the past, I understand the annoyance toward it. I like to think I’ve grown a little in that sense, though. There are still things I may be stubborn about but I’ve tried to understand certain types of evaluation better, at least personally.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
There are two definitions of "light" being used here
1) Aufheben appears to be using it in the sense of “lightweight”, or not particularly valuable, whereas
2) iglew is using it in the sense of “lighthearted” or not particularly serious
One can be lightweight whilst attempting to be taken seriously, and one can be lighthearted while being very valuable.
You’re talking about two different things.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
I was going to say "holy straw man, Batman!"
Then I realized that sounded ridiculous. I thought for a bit and couldn’t do any better, so, eh. Holy straw man, Batman!
I’ve yet to ever encounter or hear of a single person who wishes that no one would ever make a comment on this site which is rational and backed with data. That’s a level of seriousness which would go well beyond, for instance, the standards for making official comments in the public record for rules made by administrative agencies (a topic much on my mind of late given recent events hereabouts).
If you want to have goofing-around threads, that’s great. In fact, I don’t even mind if you want to have goofing-around subthreads, as long as they aren’t right at the top of the page where they’ll crowd all the serious responses to the bottom. (Though some people really don’t want non-serious comments on serious threads, so that isn’t a straw man.)
But, seriously? All rational, all the time? There’s no such faction.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I have no problem with "non-serious" comments. They make me laugh.
My point was about double-standards and hypocrisy.
In the same meta-thread that earned mikev a ban Nico said, “‘I feel like a little boy’ – Jerry Sandusky.” Nico has been making these sorts of comments as far back as I can remember. I honestly think he must have some latent issues to work out, but it certainly seems like he’s begging for attention if he’s posting shit on a baseball forum that would send most of us running to HR if we heard it at work.
My point is that DFA was banned for being a chronic nuissance (the CGVs were circumvented). Paul, IIRC, was issued a third strike, but it was for something that didn’t technically violate the CGVs (not thinking a police officer was heroic), and in the thread that wasn’t supposed to be about PaulThomas (so-named by Nico) Nico justified the third strike on the grounds that Paul had simply been a nuissance too long. So it wasn’t all that different from the DFA situation – both were effectively banned as a result of chronic behavior.
Nico, meanwhile, has been making sexist and homophobic comments for years. I would say this is a chronic problem, but nothing is done about it. This has nothing to do with serious and non-serious commenting.
And I feel bad for bringing all this up – the last thing this thread needs is to rehash past debacles. But your comment above about DFA’s banning is the first I’ve read about the process of his ban (maybe this was common knowledge and I just missed it til now), and to me this is just as egregious as the circumstances under which mikev was banned. I don’t know which upsets me more.
by Aufheben on Dec 30, 2011 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
FWIW, I've always interpreted Nico's comments as him just being weird
OTOH, I’m pretty DFA always meant what he said. I don’t think Nico literally has homophobic or sexist thoughts as part of a chronic problem.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 30, 2011 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
This argument ignores the central issue.
Questionable humor isn’t the issue. It’s when that humor is directed repeatedly at one person at their expense. That’s a form of harassment. It’s disingenuous and a cop out to say “I was just joking, you joke too” as a defense. When Nico jokes, it’s clearly meant in fun and not directed at anyone in particular. MikeV repeatedly made rude and insulting comments directed at Nico. That’s a whole other ballgame and it shouldn’t be allowed.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
by padmadfan on Jan 1, 2012 11:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand the need for serious and non-serious comments
The problem is the non-serious comments that wish to be taken seriously.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Are you going to let us turn the page?
Or will that just bring us closer to the monster at the end of this blog?
Oh, please
So ridiculous. I’m gay and I’ve never been offended by anything Nico has written. In fact, I’m comfortable within this whole community who, many times, have called out anti-gay comments by new users.
Contrast this with HH where I’ve seen some truly offensive homophobic crap and it’s tolerated by the moderators (and most of the community there).
So let’s not pile on here where it’s not called for, okay? This is one of the most gay-friendly sports sites out there.
by coffee roaster on Dec 30, 2011 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough. You're right. I don't think it was prudent of me above to
insinuate Nico is a “homophobe.” I’m pretty sure he has no problem with gay people (although I may have found some of his comments referring to gay-ness to be in poor taste) and I know it to be true that he will discuss all manner of sexuality with equally polymorphously perverse zeal – its not like he has singled out gays. And the truth is we all enjoy getting a bit blue when we’re at the bar with our friends. I apologize for the poor choice of words.
But my fundamental stance, that a double standard exists, remains unchanged. You talk about calling out new posters. I expect that if someone’s first comment on AN was the Sandusky comment I mentioned above, and if this was followed by a few similar comments, that eventually someone would call them out. I think Nico has historically benefitted from his position in the community. He once suggested that if he was at a bar with Paul he would want to punch Paul. He is just as raucous and unrestrained as mikev, who has just been banned for reasons unknown.
My point is that if there is a precedent for considering a user’s entire history in doling out justice (as in the case of Paul and DFA’s bannings) I think it becomes clear that Nico has been held to a different standard than other members of the community. Of course, as people have posted elsewhere on this thread, its really up to the administrators to run the site as they please. My own sense of justice doesn’t play into it at all.
by Aufheben on Dec 30, 2011 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
But that double standard
really exists for most regular users, doesn’t it? If any long-time poster here had made the Sandusky joke it wouldn’t have caused a stir. But if some little snot came in and it was the first thing he/she said it would of course attract some attention.
Everyone benefits from their ‘position’ within this community if they’ve been here for any length of time. Witness all of the boob comments for proof it you need it. They’re here in this thread. As a woman I find them kind of stupid but I just pass over them…which anyone can do if they don’t like what’s being posted. It’s not my house and I don’t make the rules.
by coffee roaster on Dec 30, 2011 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Nico sometimes tells jokes in bad taste.
He is not even remotely homophobic.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 30, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Totally agree with that.
They contributed to a toxic atmosphere on this site. So did I, for that matter, in appointing myself their unsolicited personal watchdog.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
Crap
Is there no such thing as gentlemen having the ability to issue a mea culpa every now and then, and just move on?
At the same time, the primary reason I stopped posting here on a regular basis long ago was NOT the banning, although Blez’ rationale, to me, left a lot to be desired. It was because the attitude at the top was exactly the same as it seems to be now: if you want to post, it isn’t enough for a published apology; the sinner has to CRAWL to the moderator alter and beg to come back.
I have a life. Most people here do. And just as I can choose to stop going to my favorite bar if the management or crowd becomes untenable, I can (and did) stop coming to my favorite blog because management became untenable. And when you have acolytes who reinforce the idea; who accept the premise, that a “benign dictatorship” is a beneficial arrangement … well good luck with that.
To me — and again, I browse this site a LOT even though I don’t post much; this is just an issue that resonates with me — this ALL blows over with Nico issuing a mea culpa (maybe with an explanation that he didn’t get what he wanted for Christmas, and it pushed him over the edge) and a general apology to the AN community. And maybe a simple rule change that dictates at least 2 moderators have to agree to ban someone before they can be banned, and the banning and rationale should be made public.
Because it would be public in a bar. All your friends and acquaintances are going to know anyway. Strangers SHOULD know so they can modify their behavior accordingly. THAT’S how you establish community mores; not with mystical bannings that have problematical rationales in the first place, and an obligation to the “bannee” that they grovel before the moderator before they can come back. That doesn’t happen much at the bar, at it won’t happen much here.
by BoyHowdee on Dec 29, 2011 8:33 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I basically agree
With all due respect, emperor, the fact that the dispute involves two blog participants who know each other doesn’t really put us in uncharted waters. It really boils down to the basic principles that should always guide personal interaction — trust, a willingness to follow whatever rules are in place, fairness, etc. — however messy that may be in the course of day to day life.
There is an evening coming in/Across the fields, one never seen before,/That lights no lamps. -- Philip Larkin, from "Going"
When I am POTUS
EN can be my Sec. of State.
you and me should talk
I need your help on this, I think. It’s approaching Fukushima status fast, unfortunately.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 28, 2011 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
I've been out of town until today, so just catching up....I'll hit you up tomorrow.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 28, 2011 11:55 PM PST up reply actions
please do
I’m doing my best but I need your expertise with this.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 28, 2011 11:58 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks EN! I feel for you and love that you're trying to fix things.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:01 AM PST up reply actions
grover, I love your contributions to this site, but you really need to google "holidays", take a deep breath and remember:
Holidays are not “Hollidays”.
Shit happens slower during these two weeks than at any other time of the year, expcept the 4-day Thanksgiving “Day” weekend. I say this as someone who was always trying to get the requisite “authority” figure to sign off on something important during either Xmas/New Year or T-giving, and guess what? Thy were ALWAYS “unavailable”, even if not actually scheduled as on vacation.
The time has NOT “long since passed”. The time is still nigh.
(30 years in the telecommunications industry, where "*your* “emergency” is inevitably going to shorten my “holiday”, while leading to no more optimum result for you".)
So, go lift a tall cool one, be patient, and expect the best.
ps. I couldn’t bear it if you left. But, then, I also couldn’t bear it if Nico were forced to leave, warts and all.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 6:29 PM PST up reply actions
Guess Nico shouldn't have banned mikev during the holiday week, then
I didn’t pick the timing of this fight.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Pardon my very late reply. This is a long thread! But you deserve acknowledgement
I’m not beefing on your timing. I’m asking you to give the cooler heads such as EN a bit of a break that they didn’t get involved sooner. That’s all.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
when in danger, when in doubt
run in circles,
scream and shout!
by MobiusKlein on Dec 28, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
hee
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
If this is enough to make anyone go, then just go
I understand tempers are hot and people are upset, but making a grand gesture out of leaving by threatening to do so is inflating your own sense of worth. On a blog most of us visit as a means of release, fun, for discussion, whatever. Many of us have come and gone, taken our own little breaks and come back, so be it.
This isn’t directed at anyone, I want to be clear with that. But air your grievances, provide your side of the argument, have fun, do whatever you do on here. If you can’t do that anymore because of this or that, then leave, whether it be temporary or permanent. If you’d like to make a comment indicating your departure, there’s nothing wrong with that in my book.
I’m sorry to those who disagree, but I just don’t understand why you would need to publicly threaten leaving unless certain action is taken.
"Minutes from the last save opportunity...Balfour got 3 outs..."- Nico
by stranahanahan on Dec 29, 2011 12:51 AM PST reply actions 6 recs
Having just read the entire thread,
I’d have to say that this seems pretty easy to resolve. Just one big mea culpa post. So Nico overreacted. But it’s understandable. He’s made himself a target in some ways, but he probably doesn’t want to be a target. It’s not really any fun being a target after awhile. And sick of being a target, he went too far, and abused his power. It happens. I feel for the guy for the abuse he’s taking here.
MikeV popped off one too many times and Nico decided to lay him out. Big mistake. Now fix it. Seems easy enough to me.
by RLangford on Dec 29, 2011 1:37 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
If you look at the history of these 2
I think you’ll find a long history of mikev intentionally being a smart ass to Nico. I’ve almost chimed in a few times w/ how disrespectful mikev has been with his replies to Nico, but why bother. I don’t think this is a one time thing/warning. This has been going on for years. (Note: I haven’t read every reply mikev has written in response to Nico)
by Colorado Fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
This implies that the customer is in a subordinate position to an employee of the company.
mikev intentionally being a smart ass to Nico
It is simply not true. All posters are allowed to say anything that does not violate CG, whether company employees like it or not. Mikev is under no obligation to censor himself other than as specified by the CG whether you or anyone else consider it “disrespectful”. No company employee is deserving of any greater respect than any other poster
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
Fixed:
mikev intentionally being a smart assto Nico
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
but why did his comment cross the line this time when the 100s of other times it didn't?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
It's a counting stat☺
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
I don't know. It's only part of an issue, and I don't think the comment itself was the real reason for the banning.
The banning was a result of mikev not getting in contact with Nico, for whatever reason.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently he IS under an obligation to censor himself or risk being labeled a "disruptive influence"...
whatever that means.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
you could have flagged the comments
and have the CV folks sort it out.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Yeah, I guess
But with contributors like mikev and Nico, you would just think they would sort out their issues themselves. Doesn’t sound like it ever happended.
I’ve been here from the start and I’ve never flagged anything. Guess I don’t care enough and would hope people can just say sorry, apologize and move on.
by Colorado Fan on Dec 29, 2011 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
right and the aggrieved party could have flagged it
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I flag things all the time.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
FLAGGED!
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
See. Wasn't that fun?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not as much as...
REC’D!☺
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
If any smart-ass comment by Mike crossed the line
then it should have been flagged, and if it was deemed strike-worthy it should have gotten a strike. Then Mike would know he is out of bounds, and he could decide whether to back off or to continue and collect enough strikes to get himself banned properly.
If his smart-ass comments did not cross the line, but possibly were still offensive, then we should just accept that as part of the price for greater freedom on AN.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
If you look at the comments one by one, None of it was flag worthy enough...
mikev never crossed the line (IMO). But responses to Nico were bully-ish in nature, bitter w/ a pinch of snark in almost every response to a Nico opinion… and Nico never deserved the treatment he rec’d (IMO).
by Colorado Fan on Dec 29, 2011 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
There is a "Harassing/Baiting of Users" CG. If that was applicable to MikeV's comments
it should have been invoked and the process followed via the moderators who have been given that responsibility. It appears that that was not done.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
And it may well have applied, but yeah - doesn't look like that process was done at all
Last of the Ninth - Photography
So, Nico is guilty of "abuse of process"
For which he should apologize.
What is Mikev guilty of? Some would say: “ntohing”. I don’t agree. As somewone who has been exposed to his ire, mikeV can seriously throw his ‘weight’, as a long-time contributor and serious tail-gate maven, around. He is NOT a fun guy to be on the wrong side of. Mea culpa: before this shite happened, I had no idea he and Nico were at odds. did Nico overreact? YOU BET! Can mikev be a pain in the ass? YOU BET! Is it his right?
Is it his right? Ask dfa and PL78. Was it their right to continuously biat each other in whatever thread they ended up jousting in? I guess, but it was for the good of the blog that both of them got ejected, no matter if PL78 was full of shit and all the statistical arguments were in dfa’s favor, it was still the case that their war was to the detriment of the blog….
Mikev is also guilty, but those who are in full-on revolt have not owned up to the fact that he is perfectly capable of making a complete pain-in-the-ass of himself.
This revolt is all "Occupy/Arab Spring, and NO: ‘but he was asking for it’ "
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
As an aside, I noticed PL78 is pretty active on Halos Heaven, at least in terms of rec'ing things
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Perfect place for him, given that things REALLY went to a head when he got all snarky about dfa's post re: Angels finances (which, in light of subsequent events was NOT AT ALL correct as to what Arte was willing to spend...)
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
Well, since you are saying DFA is wrong I bet he would counter:
How can they address these problems going forward? From the spreadsheet, it appears that the Angels have already over extended themselves. Despite jettisoning Fuentes’ $9m salary and $5.25m in dead weight from the expiration of Justin Speier’s colossally bad deal, they are projected to spend $132.4m. That figure is beyond both their 2010 payroll, and what is reasonable for a team that lost $10m at a lower payroll just last year. With these levels of expenditures the Angels can expect to lose money. They can cut bait with Mike Napoli and Reggie Wiltis to save $6m this year to give them some more flexibility.
The need to extend current players and going over budget would seem to preclude adding a big FA acquisition, but I wouldn’t be so sure. If the Angels add a large contract they should be able to structure it to avoid a significant hit this year and pay for it in future years where their commitment to deadweight players like Gary Mathews Jr. expire. Next year for example, if the Angels signed Cliff Lee to a 7 year $168m deal, they could pay for it almost completely with the expiring contracts of Kazmir and GMJ. I expect that the Angels could take a $10 million hit to their pocket book to remain competitive and acquire a FA, while using the length of the deal to make up for it being short in the first year.With that being said a longer contract is probably better for the Angels financial health and Cliff Lee fits that profile, since his contract will likely be 6 to 7 years. Adrian Beltre would also fit that profile since he will have a 5 year contract.
Because he did, and he endorses this block quote
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
so he did predict a big signing
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Ah but did he predict TWO big signings?
I didn’t think so.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 9:54 PM PST up reply actions
i don't think he foresaw or should have foreseen a regional sports network adding so much in revs
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Right only Moreno saw that. It's one of the reasons
why he’s awesome.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think talking about "rights" is helpful
No one involved in this has any real “rights” to speak of. AN does this sort of “due process” because it increases customer satisfaction, not because it’s obligated to.
If you look at this from the standpoint of “did this abrogation of the process increase customer satisfaction?” the correct answer becomes somewhat obvious (no, it did not). The reason that snap bans are normally limited to trolls and spammers is that insta-banning trolls and spammers clearly increases customer satisfaction, but insta-banning other people very rarely does so.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Excellent analysis.
Bravo for getting to the essence here.
What matters is what makes AN better. The weird hybrid of due process and authoritarianism generally does. The specific implementation in this case does not.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Perfectly stated. Thanks.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 30, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
Which one is your sigline? It could be both.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
I mean NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME! could be interpreted as irreverent or it
could be interpreted as calling the person an insecure attention whore….or both.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
Ah, thanks for clarifying.
It’s a rallying cry to make people pay attention to the bullshit being perpetrated on mike. It seems this is no longer necessary.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
Well yes I assumed that. I was just making a point that being a smart ass
can also be belittling.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Sarcasm is anger's ugly cousin
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 30, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
From where I sit, Nico probably shouldn't have banned mikev, but I can understand why he did it.
I don’t see it as Nico flexing his ban hammer to make himself feel better. I see it as a simple mistake. Mikev should not have reacted the way he did either, which was extremely stubborn. He also should not have went directly to Twitter, making the issue public. I’m sad that it went down this way. I regret the rhymes that I wrote in that initial thread, that probably only served to fan the flames.
But most of all, I’m ashamed of the way a vocal few turned it into a Nico-bashing issue. I think way too many people are overreacting. I understand everyone needs a cause. This is not it.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 4:10 AM PST reply actions 16 recs
A simple mistake?
If that’s all this was then why didn’t Nico fix it when he realized the mistake?
Unless, of course, he doesn’t think that banning mikev was a “mistake”. In which case your defense of Nico’s actions is in tatters.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I said I see it as a mistake of an action. I don't know what Nico thinks.
I believe he wanted to be sure that mikev saw it, and apparently thought he was being ignored or mikev for some reason wasn’t getting the email. There were two things here; the first offense that Nico wanted to talk about, and the lack of a response. The second thing is what brought on the temp ban. Either way, the quick solution would be for mikev to email Nico to see what the hell was up. Instead, he got real defensive and stubborn and went to Twitter. Be mad at Nico all you want, but mikev escalated this whole thing.
If the SBN software supported private messaging, maybe Nico would have had another option to contact mikev in a way that he could be sure it would be seen without resorting to the ban comment.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
There's a problem with your scenario
If you can’t find mikev on AN to ask in a thread if he got your e-mail, you don’t have your computer turned on.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I don't believe he wanted to make it a public issue.
Which is fine.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
Asking someone to check their e-mail isn't making the "issue" public
It’s saying “I sent you an e-mail, did you get it?”
The monster at the end of this blog.
Yours is a ridiculous position
Rather than ask if an e-mail was received the sender instead bans the person they were trying to contact. Brilliant. Because banning someone in the middle of a discussion on the day Gio gets traded doesn’t create a public spectacle.
Oops.
The monster at the end of this blog.
If you want to get technical, yes, the banning mechanism was used.
Was it a real ban? Not according to the effect Nico wanted. He just wanted mikev to contact him for an initial issue.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 6:41 PM PST up reply actions
Can mikev post on AN?
Nope.
Then it was a real ban.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 29, 2011 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Not in the traditional sense. Usually bans state the person is gone for a certain length of time, or indefinately.
This ban was only until mikev was able to communicate with Nico.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 1:21 AM PST up reply actions
So a non-traditional ban then?
A nude wedding of bans, if you will.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
I was going to do that, but my mom freaked out.
So we both wore dresses instead.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
That's not even the issue for me anymore
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
This would be fine if it was a procedure outlined in the CG. Did Mikev actually violate
CG? Where did he do that?
If no CG was violated then is it necessary for any poster to contact the site administrator upon demand or else risk being banned? If so where is this policy outlined?
If MikeV was banned for doing something “grievous”, what what it? If it was not a CGV, how can it be “grievous”?
I’m not mad at Nico or anyone else. I just want to know what the rules are, and to know that things are proceeding according to them. If things are proceeding according to a different, unwritten, set of rules, I am wondering what the purpose is of having the written set of rules.
Are these not reasonable questions?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Fuentes' career ERA?
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 31, 2011 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
The number of days A's players spent on the DL last year.
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
Sure, some of those are good questions.
It would be nice to know what exactly happened, but it shouldn’t really be our business. Now that everything is blown way out of proportion, we probably should know what happened to remove some of the unknown and ease the tensions.
Honestly, ever since mikev went public with the issue, I think it’s fair that Nico do the same.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
but nico didn't. he continued posting but only very small parts of the story. then he would retreat and say that he can't spill all the beans.
i’m not anti-nico or pro-mikev. i’m pro the issue being aired out for public consumption and ensuring that things were done fairly to all parties.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
It should never have escalated this far, but I agree, at this point we probably do need an explaination.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
In a sense you're right, it shouldn't be our business. I don't have a right to know
what exactly transpired. Only the site owners have that right. But if rules are not being followed as written in CG, I WANT to know. Then I can act accordingly.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
One of the things that concerns me here:
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:22 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno what happened, but the rest of my reply went missing;
One of the things that could have gone wrong and which concerns me here, is: I am ALWAYS logged on to AN. Is it at all possible that mikev is, too? If so, he would NOT have gotten Nico’s message, would he? Since said message only shows up when someone attempts to access AN while not logged in?
Perhaps both are right: “Nico lied, he never tried”. “mikev lied, he never replied”.
A serious mistake is ‘misunderestimating’ the ability of the (not well-understood thechnical aspects of our endeavor- ) web to fuck up all intercommunication beyond the fuckups which would naturally occur with direct misunderstanding!
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
As far as I understand, the warn button automatically logs a user off.
You can log back on immediately, but you have to read the message.
SBN does support private messaging
from any mod to any user. That’s exactly what the first “warning” was.
Mikev could not log on to AN without seeing it. Since he did indeed make posts after the warning, Nico can know that he saw it.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
So then mikev willingly ignored it?
Sounds like that might be grounds for a temp ban.
Ok, let’s say I throw a gum wrapper out my car window as I’m driving down the street. A cop sees it, and wants to pull me over, so he flips his lights on and only whoops his siren once. I see the lights behind me, but I choose not to stop, and just continue on my merry way. Doesn’t the cop now have the right to arrest me and take me down to the station for booking? I probably wouldn’t spend much time in there, maybe a few hours at the most.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but that implies Nico's a cop and MikeV's a regular citizen.
In the context of AN, a more proper metaphor would be that Nico’s a cop and MikeV’s the head of the citizen task force that investigates the cops.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
It's only grounds for a ban of any kind if it's a "grievous" action according to
the rules set up by this community. So sure it’s grounds for a temp ban, as long as someone deems it “grievous”
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Appreciate the attempt at an analogy
But I don’t think just ignoring a police officer is going to go as smoothly as you anticipate. Feel free to do it and report back, I could be wrong. :D
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I think that's LS's point
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
"I probably wouldn’t spend much time in there, maybe a few hours at the most."
Wouldn’t you now be facing a wide range of felony charges?
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
For littering and failure to stop for a single whoop?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
in ca it could be vc 2800.2 evading a police officer, a felony, punishment up to 3 years in state prison
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Plus littering
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
I love when they smack you with crap like that.
I think every murderer who disposes of the weapon in a pond should get smacked with littering too. Just pour it on. Spaghetti strategy, throw at the wall til something sticks haha
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
You want them to get the death penalty plus a $50 fine?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
Littering and . . . littering and . . . littering and . . .
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 30, 2011 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The shnozberries taste like shnozberries
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
by MissOakland on Dec 31, 2011 12:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I trust Future Ed on that
But, I don’t think a single whoop with you not stopping doesn’t lead to more whoops. More whoops sans stopping equal whoops from multiple cars. Equals whoops heard from television helicopters. Equals whoops seen on TV as you drive up the 405 with a former teammate at the wheel of your Bronco. Leads to being acquitted on murder charges which leads to you beating up someone selling your sports merchandise leading toa life in prison. Or… what Future Ed said…
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
You ever seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0xewi_Gdc8&feature=relmfu
So weird…
SEMINARS!
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I actually have seen that
And I saw a documentary on their most recent one.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
This is an interesting, if somewhat disturbing, read
In a random double-blind test, I'd take a juggalo over a crustpunk any day.
Juggalos, at least, are generally not nihilists. The best among them are justice-minded and very anti-bullying.
The most violent ICP songs are told from the eyes of vigilantes.
A lot of those kids come from messed up homes, and the sometimes backwards nurturing they get from their peers is better than what they get at home.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
I'll take your word for it
Since I’ve had no direct dealings with juggalos and don’t know what crustpunks are.
Being a big 311 fan, I know the typical stereotype of their fans is that of stoners who just smoke pot all day. Never had it, never see myself trying it, but I just love the music.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 30, 2011 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
just for being another non pot smoking 311 fan.
That is interesting.
Every community has their quirks. I am sure my wife thinks I am weird for talking about baseball with strangers online like this. Haha. If you get something out of it, and it isn’t hurtful to others, good for you I suppsoe.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
The Great Malenko is one of the best produced albums I've ever listened to.
Not like, top five or anything, but it’s very well put together.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
We obviously come to different conclusions about who and in which proportion is to blame for this mess. This is fine. People will often disagree looking at the same facts, and I urge everyone to think for themselves.
However, when you say:
[Nico apparently thought that] mikev for some reason wasn’t getting the email.
You imply that Nico sent an e-mail to mike. Unless you have very specific, non-public knowledge about it, I don´t think it is fair to state that.
What we do know is:
- Mike claims never to have received an e-mail from Nico
- Nico himself never claimed to have sent an e-mail to Mike
- Other moderators succeeded in sending e-mail to Mike using the same mail address that was available to Nico had he chosen to use it
Knowing all of the above, everything points to Nico never sending an e-mail to Mike, and that for some reason it was important to him that such e-mail be sent from Mike, not himself.
There is already enough controversy based on the facts. No need to make everything more complicated by mixing in assumptions as if they were facts.
Careful Brenarlo
I missed however this started so my opinion doesn't mean much. I just wanted to say I love Bloom, and I think Nico is
the funniest guy here.
I also love Mikev, cantankerous as he may be.
I live with a bunch of animals, including a pigeon that at times draws blood. He’s my kid, so I love him regardless.
In the same vein, I consider Mikev part of the family here. I take him as he is. And he did turn on me at one point. He also got over it. Maybe we should all get over “it”. Whatever “it” is.
Just my two pennies with admittedly not seeing the original transgression.
Mike, this is for you: OYO.
...being a role model I probably wouldn't recommend eating dirt. But at the same time, I'm not trying to be a role model. I'm just trying to eat some dirt.
by attijah on Dec 29, 2011 4:49 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
atti, in a non secret thread?
WHAT IS HAPPENING!!!!!!!
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
You have the wrong worrie?
heh.
Of course she knows you’re not a guy.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
That's not what my birth certificate claims.
Are you calling my doctor a liar?
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
Moi aussi, att-EE!
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
There is only one solution to this issue
THUNDERDOME~!
No mikev, no peace
Know mikev, know peace
by Mike Garza on Dec 29, 2011 9:16 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Nico is way out of line on this and its been going on for a while
I received a “strike” from Nico, because of a political analogy i made. I thought it was wrong and emailed the dude and he was a total douche about it.
Clearly, Nico, cannot handle a “leadership” roll on this website.
Lastly, that “strike” drove me away. Someone in this thread mentioned how these current “issues” could drive folks away. They’re correct!
AN – Stop being the “grammar police” and lighten up. Its like a little club in here sometimes and its not inviting to casual A’s fans, or fans who don’t feel like using their thesaurus or spell check, on every post.
Also, where are the kids (young A’s fans)? not here with the grammar police …
by GrewUpAtTheColiseum on Dec 29, 2011 9:51 AM PST reply actions
it's a no-no
but there is often some latitude in it’s application.
Stalin Jokes: OK
Nixon Jokes: OK
Reagan Jokes: Probably not, unless it’s his acting career.
Bush / Obama jokes: mostly no. (dude above said obummer, which could be considered political.)
I’ve pushed the limit a few times,never got a strike.
And when politics intersects directly with baseball – e.g. congressional hearings about steroids, which Oakland mayor will keep the A’s in Oakland, it’s not possible to avoid it except through total silence.
by MobiusKlein on Dec 29, 2011 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
It's always amazed me that that's his real name from childhood
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
parents never went to maryland?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Apparently he was named after
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Like the man who named his daughter, Cellar Doer?
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Connie Ling
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
ouch, or more properly, oh my!
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Liberal political references are always allowed, too.
And this is coming from a card-carrying, bleeding heart liberal.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
FWIW I flag all political references I see.
But I don’t go looking for them.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 9:56 PM PST up reply actions
I like FK BECAUSE you can talk politics and religion.
I’d love to debate political and religious things here, and if AN ever changed the policy on that, I might come back as a regular member, rather than just as an occasional lounger and blatant meta whore.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
I'm glad those topics aren't allowed here, honestly
They almost always lead to hostilities. If it works on FK, great.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It seems to work pretty well on BTF as well.....well sometimes
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
That may be, but I think most people are here to talk about the A's
Too much religion and politics and that starts to become secondary.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Oh, I'm not objecting to the rule at all. As I said, I flag political comments
whenever I see them.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
My only religion and political belief is OAKLAND A'S BASEBALL!!!!!!!
(any flags? [in the outfield])
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 30, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Same here. And with the size of AN, it could definitely lead to... problems.
I’m one of those people who can’t walk away from a political debate, so I would have gotten my ass banned long ago if they hadn’t been ruled against. :D
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
I am with you.
I WORK in politics, I am a political consultant. I like a politics free zone where I can just talk baseball. I think it is a benefit to this community to check political beliefs at the door. There are plenty of places to go for political chat.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I'm not advocating for that particular change... just stating my opinion.
Maybe that’s where the 2-state solution has its’ positives.
AN is more anonymous and rigid and does create a safe zone to talk baseball without a lot of real-world intrusion. Some people like that.
I just don’t think there’s nearly as much baseball worth talking about, these days, now that the stat revolution has slowed and become more proprietary and secret. The economics of the sport are crooked and messed up, and baseball players are not exactly the most likeable people in the world to begin with (the Brandon McCarthys and Brad Zieglers of the world notwithstanding).
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
And politicians are? ;)
Haha.
I get where you’re coming from. It’s my personal preference.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I disagree, personally
The only non-awful political debates I’ve ever seen (much less been involved in) on the internet have been on sites that were specifically unrelated to politics.
It’s the only way you will actually get a fair cross-section of the community, rather than a group of die-hard junkies. I wish AN was open to it, as I think some pretty good discussions could be had.
That said, it’s not my call.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 30, 2011 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
That is my experience as well.
Political debates on political sites are always awful. In contrast, I’ve been involved in some truly excellent political discussions on forums devoted to another topic.
Nevertheless, I don’t think that would work on AN, for many reasons. For one thing, I really don’t think it would be a well-distributed cross-section of the political spectrum.
If I could hand select a subgroup of AN and take them somewhere else for a political discussion, I would love that. But politics on AN as it is? No way, sounds like a disaster.
(On the other hand, if there were a protocol for designating a fanpost as politics-allowed in that post only, that might work.)
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I'm not opposed to the political talk prohibition but out of curiosity
why do you think AN specifically is a bad place for political discussion — worse than other non-political blogs?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
The main thing is size of the community.
It’s just too big. When a group feels like a large group of friends but still a forum where you know everyone, I think that’s more conducive. The larger and less personal the group, the more likely it will turn into partisan cheerleading.
A second thing is that my best political conversations have been in groups which are very close to evenly split over the political spectrum (preferably with several who are unpartisan and aren’t easily categorized), which I don’t think is the case here.
Finally, even though this group even in its entirety is still more intelligent than the national average, other forums where I’ve really enjoyed political discussions have been even more narrowly selected for intelligence and thoughtfulness.
Possibly my standards are too high, given my past experiences. On reflection, I have to admit that AN would still be better than most other Internet communities these days.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
So we're too stupid and narrow minded for you? Is that it?
Happy New Year iglew!!!!!!!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
When the Yahoo forums
were formatted differently, that’s exactly what two baseball forums did (A’s and Red Sox, RSN especially) after the prevailing opinion developed that politics was over-riding the conversation. Once the political boards were created, it was relatively easy and effective to ask people to effectively take it to the other page. No moderators; just peer pressure, and it worked.
Using a browser with built in spell check isn't asking too much
Nor does it involve using a thesaurus.
No mikev, no peace
Know mikev, know peace
It's 'role', not roll.
Love,
the grammar police
by coffee roaster on Dec 29, 2011 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Dude, that is a terrible comparison.
In your case, you made a blatantly political comment (here). AN’s rules clearly state that comments that bring partisan politics into the discussion are not allowed here. That is a simple rule that is widely agreed upon.
Your comment was flagged by a user. The mods saw the flag, and there was widespread agreement among them that it deserved a strike, so you got a strike. This was not abusive or oppressive to you; it is exactly how the system is supposed to work. No one attacked you. No one thought your comment was a big deal. Many of us assumed it was a simple mistake and you just didn’t know the rule. The strike tells you what the rule is, and if you see that and remember to follow it in the future then everything is peachy.
If the strike “drove you away”, then that’s your problem. Your case has nothing at all to do with abuse of power.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 29, 2011 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't give a shit about this whole mess
but in that link I find it amusing that another blatantly political comment is located about 2 comments above the one in question, and nobody seemed to care. The politics rule doesn’t seem to apply to a user here.
by BWH on Dec 29, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What, the part about how Huffington interviewing Rove would lead to a certain bias in how something is presented?
If you can’t see how that is completely different from connecting Wolff supporters to Bush voters, I don’t know what to tell you.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I basically saw "Rove is the devil"
also, it was pretty unnecessary to mention political names in that analogy. Also, that’s not the only time political comments have been ignored.
Did the 2nd comment get flagged?
Did you flag it?
If not, then you’re part of the problem.
The monster at the end of this blog.
No, I didn't read it at the time.
It’s over a year old and this is the first time I’ve read it. But I have flagged political posts before and nothing happened.
In other words, chances are it has to be pretty blatant to get the flag
And what GrewUpAtTheColiseum wrote was.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Again, it needs to be flagged for it to be looked at
And it also wasn’t attacking people on AN, which is an almost surefire way to get the flag.
One more time: flag it if you don’t like it. It’s pretty pointless to complain about something this late in the game.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I think he's pointing out the arbitrariness of it all
No need to get touchy.
The arbitrariness happens. It’s going to. Emperor Nobody gets cut a lot of slack on his political views. I don’t have any problem with that. BWH is making a valid point.
I'm not a big fan of EN's political views being put out over AN
But it’s up to enough people to flag it when it comes up, or for the mods to tell him to keep it out of here. BWH bringing up two examples of things he didn’t like just makes it look like he’s going, “Look! Look! Why didn’t HE get in trouble too?”
Last of the Ninth - Photography
He does it
all the fucking time. I’m not gonna sit here and find a whole bunch of examples, because who has the time, but they’re definitely there. I have no idea why it’s allowed. It’s ridiculous.
sure my post was political ...
i just wonder why i was targeted and EN wasn’t? I don’t have any problem with his comments and I thought my post was fine. I saw it as an abuse (giving me a strike) when another contributor, in the same proximity of the thread as me, made a political comment. And apparently EN gets away with it all the time and a lurker like me cannot.
Oh well …
There’s a lot to like about AN, but its not as inviting as it could be. my 2 cents.
by GrewUpAtTheColiseum on Jan 2, 2012 6:36 PM PST up reply actions
For better or worse, chances are a lurker is going to have a much shorter leash than somebody who's well-established as a regular here
Especially if that lurker comes in saying obnoxious and controversial things. There isn’t much else to go by but those things, so chances of a strike are greater.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
A flag is not a strike.
Did you actually get a strike?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Oops, nevermind.
I thought you were talking about a current comment, not the original one.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
And not just him. I just don't see as many political comments as I used to
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
I think
that EN guy is a worthless loudmouth who should have been banned the day he registered here. His political views, such as they can be determined through the drooling incomprehensibility, are often muddled exercises in infantile self-aggrandizement and that’s on his good days. If a contest were to be held between him and a recently-deceased gibbon to determine who was the more idiotic commentator, the gibbon would lose.
I say ban him, unban him and then ban him again!
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 29, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
I wanna see the Emperor & the gibbon in an ass kicking contest.
Or a beard growing contest…
…unless the gibbon is Billy Gibbons, who obviously would have one heck of a head start!
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 29, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
I think Billy Gibbons would win a beard-growing contest betwix the two.
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 29, 2011 6:16 PM PST up reply actions
I just nominated these 2 replies
for AN Top Comment of the Month.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 30, 2011 4:23 AM PST up reply actions
which brings up a CGV clarification
if you attack yourself, is that a CGV violation (or CG violation to avoid superfluousness)? after all, it is an attack on “anyone”. OTOH, it’s not a direct attack on “another user”, and so I would be inclined to think it’s not a CGV.
But I’m sure the moderators of this site are having too much fun on other matters to be too pensive on this issue.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 29, 2011 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
one move, and the Sheriff gets it!
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 30, 2011 4:51 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Would you like another schnitzengruben?
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 30, 2011 6:29 AM PST up reply actions
Well, I'll be damned.
Glad to see that a left-wing comment got a CGV (this again coming from a card-carrying liberal).
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
We shouldn't be talking about left wings or right wings. This is a baseball blog people!
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Yea, if you want to talk about left or right wings, I'm sure there is a soccer blog dying to have people comment on it.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 1:23 AM PST up reply actions
However
you may all feel free to talk about buffalo wings, the Horten Wing or Paul McCartney & Wings.
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 30, 2011 4:45 AM PST up reply actions
The grey goose was a steady boat, people said she'd never float
But one night when the moon was high, the grey goose flew away
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 8:52 AM PST up reply actions
I flag left-wing political comments all the time.
I truly think left-wing political comments are more damaging to AN than right-wing political comments.
There are two ways in which political discussion harms AN. One is that when a comment is provocative enough that someone with opposing views feels compelled to rebut it, it tends to create lengthy political debates which aren’t what we want this blog to be about.
The second is that if a certain political viewpoint becomes part of the community’s identity, individuals from the other side will feel unwelcome and excluded here.
It’s no secret that the A’s fanbase includes more liberals than conservatives. Frequent liberal comments — especially if they are throw-away lines included as rhetorical devices that presume everyone reading already agrees with the view — are a strong threat to alienate conservatives. There is little threat of the reverse here.
On other sports blogs, it would be the other way around.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
There's a simple reason why the A's fanbase includes more liberals than conservatives
It’s common knowledge that larger metropolitan areas are, in most cases, more liberal than rural areas.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
The Texas Rangers fanbase may disagree with you...
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Well, that's Texas
And I did say “in most cases.” ;-)
At least in this, you can see where the majority of areas were that voted for Obama. Typically those “liberal bastions” include those metropolitan areas, but also a lot along the coasts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/2008_election_reults_county_by_county.png
By and large that mostly holds true in other elections as well, but it all depends on the candidates. Granted, I doubt I’m telling you anything you don’t already know about this!
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I wouldn't call any place that voted Obama in 2008 a "liberal bastion"
(braces for strike)
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Curses! Foiled again by quotes.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
We can teach you
http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I think there is more to it than that however...
And I would start a huge war about it on here, so feel free to hit me up on Twitter @tvprcretireplan or via e-mail (below) if you really care about my opinion and I’m happy to share it.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
quite the drama indeed
I appreciate emperor nobody’s good faith efforts to come up with a resolution to preserve this community, but I’ll just cut to the core of my comment.
The public trust is at stake (sorry if that sounds dramatic) and I’m very uneasy with how Nico has conducted himself based on Electrola’s post.
This is one of the best boards/forums I’m a member of. The statistical debates on this board are second to none. The ensuing comment sections are loaded with enriching contributions and furious debate (sometimes too furious), but they also contain plenty of sarcastic pot-shots between regulars.
Banter is a healthy component of this board. I’m drawn to this place not just for the team analysis, but for the comical exchanges ripe with sarcasm. These exchanges are part and parcel for any healthy relationship between fans. I consider this a site for passionate fans, not merely posters adding their 2-cents.
While I’ve enjoyed reading and responding with Nico in various comment sections, I find Nico’s actions in this case unbecoming of our chief administrator.
Nico may have a personal, rocky relationship with mikev, but the comment to Nico’s post was hardly out of line given the tempo of this board. What bothers me more, is what i perceive as an over-reaction by Nico.
1. the auto log-off of mikev – i would only think this to be used when a poster turns extremely vulgar, repeatedly types foul language, or responds to every new comment with a personal attack. Yet mike’s comment, though in bad taste, nothing more than a ribbing to Nico.
2. Nico “demanding” that mikev contact him to discuss – I think this is what bothers me the most. We are not school children living in fear of the head master. This feels like a big pressure move by Nico to intimidate a regular poster on this board. Nico has all the power, as demonstrated by the auto-logging off of Mikev, and unless Mikev comes begging for forgiveness, Nico will expel him.
Whether mikev received Nico’s communication “demanding” contact is irrelevant. This is a community board of people who come and go as they please.
Nico should have issued mikev a strike with an explanation, included a brief summary of pertinent board rules, and given some misdemeanor penalty of perhaps a 24-hr posting block and called it a day.
I hope this gets resolved soon. Based on what i’ve seen i consider this a major overstep and not one i expected possible from this board.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
I disagree with two points
1) Nico has all the power — this is clearly not true. SBN is a for-profit enterprise and therefore the “power” lies in the consumers (us) and the owners (shareholders). Officers are employees hired to do a job.
2) Nico should have issued mikev a strike — I looked at the five CGV which merit a “strike” and Mikev did not engage in any of them. You said yourself that “the comment… was hardly out of line”. Further the administrator is not empowered to issue strikes. There is a group of moderators for that purpose.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
#1. we can certainly work through the definitions of “power” but Nico was able to exert the authority/control/power to have mikev banned.
#2. I’m in agreement that mikev, for his comment, should not have been issued a strike. However, that is a disagreement upon the merits of a strike.
My concern is that the 3 strike system, which is the noted recourse of the moderators, was never used to begin with.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
#1 Nico was able to have mikev banned, but it has come at a pretty big cost to him
judging from the response here.
It’s like saying the manager of Starbucks has the power to refuse service to people for any reason. However, doing so might cause the store to lose money if the people who were refused service were able to get others to not want to go there. The Starbucks manager is accountable for his/her decisions to his boss, and the boss to the shareholders and the shareholders to the customers. That’s how business works.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
a misuse of power/authority
which is what i was getting at.
he holds that power/authority – delegated to him by his superiors – to exert within his directive. In the end it will be up to the ’boss" whether or not he retains such authority.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Everyone is assuming he abused his power.
Do we know what the original offense was?
Do we know if mikev ignored the email? If not, and he didn’t see it, then he should have had no problem responding to Nico’s temp ban message to quickly get reinstated. If he did see the message and ignored it, then what else should Nico do? A comment in a thread is not necessarily going to be seen, nor is it a private thing. The tempban message seems like a way to be sure the person is going to see it without making it public. As I said before, perhaps the SBN software needs to have private messaging so that those who run the sites can have an alternative way to reach members that isn’t subject to spam filtering or people not checking an external email account.
by LoneStranger on Dec 29, 2011 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
i think elcroata's take at the top of the fan post is similar to my understanding.
the only additional thing i recall is that nico (or someone else) said that the ban was originally for mikev not having a valid email in his profile but that an email was somehow sent to mikev. i might be wrong (and i apologize if i am) but that’s my recollection from the gio trade fan post.
other than that, the community members need help.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
sorry i'm wrong. the email thing was speculation by "nick," not nico. i apologize.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
That's how I saw the "email" thing.
Someone asked if no email warranted an automatic ban, and Nico said yes. Then, everyone ASSUMED this was why mikev was banned.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Even that's not accurate.
Yet another reason why this whole fiasco is rooted in miscommunication between parties who refuse to fix it. Nick said:
Could it have to do with the “every user needs to have a valid email address in their profile” rule?
Then I said:
That’s a rule?
To which Nico replied that yes, having a valid email address is a rule. NOTHING in that conversation had anything to do with mikev’s case.
I agree that you comment had nothing to do with mikev, dan.
However, when you connect the comment before yours, with the comment after Nico’s response, it becomes obvious that some took this as the reason for the ban. There is a whole lot jumping to conclusions in this mess.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
and by that point people that see mikev on the other parts of the internet knew his email was in his private profile and valid
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I've finally caught up with this thread,
and one thing stands out as widely misunderstood.
In response to Mike’s “notice me” comment, Nico used SBN’s “warning” function to write a message to Mike. What this means, tech-wise, is that the next time Mike logs on to AN that message shows up as a special window for him to read. He can then click OK on it and proceed as normal. This function exists as a means for moderators to contact users when necessary.
(This should not be confused with a “warning” as defined by the CGVs in any way. AN’s CGV system with strikes and warnings it specific to AN as created by the blogfather, mods, and community. Each SBN blog can use the available tech tools however they choose.)
That warning message was the one where Nico said to Mike something like, “I’m concerned about your comment, please email me to discuss it.” At this point Mike was not banned.
Mike was banned 12 days later. This is clear in the dates that EC lists on his main post, between act 3 and act 4, but a lot of people seem to have missed that. What happened between the warning and banning, I don’t entirely know. Nico says that if only Mike had emailed him everything would have been fine. This is what several people on this thread have equated to “come begging for forgiveness”, “the sinner has to crawl”, and so forth. Apparently Mike felt he shouldn’t be required to email Nico and so he didn’t.
My point here is that a lot of people seem to be assuming that Mike was insta-banned immediately upon his “notice me” comment, and that simply isn’t the case.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 29, 2011 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
So is it fair to assume that if any poster is asked by an administrator to contact that administrator
and fails to do so, that person can be banned by the administrator under the “grievous” action cause?
Or is it the case that such failure to respond is not a “grievous” action but is still a bannable offense under some other “unwritten” rule that is not widely known? If so, what is that rule?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
I think that most people who were around for the previous discussion in the Gio thread are aware of the time-lapse?
It’s just that between the NOTICE ME and his banning, there didn’t seem to be anything happen publicly on AN that would have warranted his banning. The lapse in time is part of why it’s bizarre.
And it still doesn’t eliminate the fact that banning someone to try and get their attention is the equivalent of running up and punching someone because you waved at them and they ignored you. As someone only able to see the public, on-AN side of what’s happening, banning someone to get their attention seems like an abuse of power and a disproportionate response.
Nico says that if only Mike had emailed him everything would have been fine.
But emailed him for what purpose? What’s the intention? If Mikev had sent him a blank header with ‘.’ as the content of the email, would that single act have gotten him to be unbanned? If all Nico wanted was some sort of magical email to prove… whatever? I’m not sure how many ways it CAN be interpreted, since obviously it wasn’t for a “Hi Mike, how was your holidays?” If that was the case, why the banning? To ban someone to make them contact you is to put an obligation on someone and force a response, it’s more than ‘just an email’, it’s more like forcing a conversation on someone. Which, if that person hasn’t violated the CGs, seems more than a little rude and ridiculous.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 29, 2011 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
He wanted an email so they could work it out
That seems pretty clear. Plenty of stupid lines being drawn in the sand by both people here. But since one is an administrator and another just a patron, the bar should be higher for the administrator.
If Nico wanted to talk it out, why didn't he just email mikev directly?
Why make mikev come to him?
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
I'm going to try to find a way to articulate it, because I'm not sure I can--
We don’t know why we wanted an email or how it would go down. Presumably, yeah, it’d be to discuss “the issue”, whatever the specific “issue” is.
But here’s the thing. No one is obligated to settle a beef. Tons of us have our spats and issues on here all the time. Sometimes we settle it on-site, sometimes we settle it in email, sometimes we drink it out at a tailgate, sometimes we don’t settle it at all and let delicious antagonism reign.
If Mikev is banned because of something specific he said or did, it should be handled within the CGV/strikes system. That’s what it’s there for. And this whole ‘banning until you email me’ is in no way laid out in the CGs as a consequence. If it’s within the system, I’d say the mods should be the one emailing him to notify him of why he’s received a strike/ban and it should be handled per the guidelines. According to the rules that we’ve all agreed to on the site.
This just feels to me like Nico’s using his powers as an admin to deal with a personal issue, and that makes me as uncomfortable as hell. If I’m pissed at you, I can’t go and ban you to make you email me. Someone else can’t do that to me. If I’m getting a strike or Officially Getting In Trouble, it feels like it should be dealt through the official, laid-out system. Not… this weird in-between mess that seems to be happening. Especially since making Mikev be the one to email him is just so fucking weird. If there’s a reason he’s banned, just email and say why. It doesn’t have to be this drama, there were plenty of non-drama options available to Nico.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 29, 2011 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
like how kyli is so fucking wrong about Gold alts
they are awesome. Her position is failure.
But I still can say hi at a game.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Oh Ed, it's not my fault that the baseball gods have deigned to give me excellent taste.
It’s such a burden. :(
And I will still eat various grilled products in your company.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
I seem to recall a time when I had moderator abilities that use of the "warn" function was strongly discouraged
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I was never told to avoid the "warn" function,
but it does seem to be non-standard practice.
I thought Nico’s original warning (to say nothing of the ban later) was a bit strange. The normal thing would have been for him to flag the post and send an email to the other mods drawing their attention to it. Then the rest of us could contemplate whether we thought the comment strike-worthy or just another personal gripe that doesn’t warrant serious action. If we did find it strike-worthy, then Mike would get a strike.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I do recall BBG once saying something about using one of those functions not being the way AN does things
It’s been a while, though.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
The timeline matters not one iota.
It doesn’t matter if there was a MONTH between … the only question really is this: was Mike’s remark a bannable offense? Not complicated really, and it doesn’t take a hell of a lot of research to determine that answer.
Probably
But unless flags or warnings were being handed out otherwise, a pile of straw should not have made a difference, and this instance should have stood on its own merit.
But the overall discussion has clearly morphed into the arbitrary aspects of moderator control. Or lack thereof.
that seems like an improper use of that tool
that I never knew existed before
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
This is very clear, iglew.
However, the requisite question here for Nico is: If I require that mikev contact me prior to RE-logging-in to AN, have I also logged him out????
I ask this because, as for me, I am ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS logged in to AN (on firefox, at least). If some fictional administrator were to become so exercised with me that he/she were to demand my bowing-and-scraping before his/her highness before I would be allowed to re-enter the sacrosanct site, the above process fills me with absolutely NO assurance that I would actually RECEIVE said poison message (which I might very well fail to respond to, anyway)- however, you can rest assured that I would be highly more likely to escalate my response if I had not actually received said message because at no time was I actually LOGGED OFF, and therefore, I never needed to LOG BACK ON, at which time I would have received the message.
I think this is what happened, and we are all out on the limb, chain saw in hand, fired up, and fully ready to cut off the offending limb, even though it is necessary to cut closer to the trunk than we sit. I’d appreciate it ever so much if we could just s-l-o-w d-o-w-w-w-n and examine what went wrong without blame or assumptions!
FOR SOMALIA!!!!
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:48 PM PST up reply actions
You may think you are always logged in, but technically the blog software automatically logs you in when you visit.
It’s done by storing an encrypted value, or token, in the browser cookies which is sent to the website every time you request a page. The token can be invalidated on the server side, which leads to the the auto-login failing. This may appear like you’ve been logged out, when in fact, you just haven’t been logged in for this session.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 1:27 AM PST up reply actions
Wouldn't step 2 be to email mikev?
Or just flag the comment and move on?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I say a cage match is in order.
The proceeds can go towards finding a right handed power hitter.
We just got Head
What more could we ask for?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
sammiches!
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
I was nice about it.
I responded as an answer to your question, rather than as “the mAN”
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
No way! Bloom is one of the good guys.
You are the one who screwed up the spelling.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
I am THE MAN, though. Shiftless and yet somehow in a position of authority.
My clients feel similarly…
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 29, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry.
I didn’t mean to dis your Lordship.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Lords don't have crowns.
They just own the castle.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Why on EARTH
have we not had any response from those involved? Seems to be exacerbating the situation. Can’t we have some clarification and resolution?
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
Well, mikev can't respond, I'm assuming
And dunno if Nico can either right now…
by stranahanahan on Dec 29, 2011 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Would any of this meta-drama be happening
if we had a) any resolution to the stadium issue or b) any shred of hope that the team would be much fun to watch in 2012 or even 2013?
Scott Hatteberg, English major.
Ya I think so too.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
I'm sure nobody agrees on this
But a pretty fun thread to read through if you’re not Nico or the people who have to run this site. Plenty of comments worth reading.
I wouldn't call it "fun" exactly but it is worthwhile sure.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, this is the least fun thread I've ever seen.
I’m disappointed that we’re currently a day in and five-hundred comments deep and there’s still been no response.
Be thankful Bud Selig's Blue Ribbon Panel doesn't moderate AN
"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully
by YonYonson on Dec 29, 2011 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
It's like a car wreck
I don’t want to look but I can’t help myself
And 2013, 2014...
But I will most definitely buy the Extra Innings package once again
And there's your 500th comment
Pretty appropriate
Onward A's Fans . . .
C’mon everyone, get over it! This topic has gotten really tired and has taken on absurd proportions. In his long history with AthleticsNation, Nico hasn’t ever shown an ego problem in my opinion and has come across as fair-minded and tolerant of almost anything. To say he’s using unfair TCA powers is ridiculous and keeps the vast majority of us from enjoying real baseball-related issues, not personal emotional injuries.
If I were in Nico’s situation, I can understand why I would take a sabbatical from AN — it’s gotten to be REALLY “not fun” with all this pettiness.
Mikev should just simply write to Nico privately and discuss the matter without our voyeuristic involvement and resolve the matter.
Hey, if this goes on publicly here on AN, I certainly will go on permanent “sabbatical” from this blog site. I’m sure no one will miss my withdrawal and eventually no one will miss any other long-time “valuable” contributor to AN in due time.
Let’s get on with baseball talk. F%&# the Giants, Angels, and Rangers. Go A’s!!!
by quietfan on Dec 29, 2011 4:17 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Just because nobody's made the reference yet in ALL of this:
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 29, 2011 4:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Holy (AN ) hell.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
"For the love of God, Montresor!"
“Yes, for the love of God”.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 29, 2011 7:59 PM PST up reply actions
Poe's story works perfectly when you think about it
One guy being haunted by the constant taunts of another, so much so that he eventually chooses to permanently silence the taunter, only to discover that his revenge has ultimately destroyed him as well.
I’d say “The Cask of Amontillado” should be required reading for this thread.
by RLangford on Dec 29, 2011 8:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You made me chuckle
But it’s a rueful chuckle, in part because my daughter has to write a short story in Poe’s style before school starts.
If you shot me an email,
I could provide some good tips for that assignment. It’s one I have my students do, though not over Winter Break.
I LOVE Poe's writing
but it terrifies me. Thanks anyway.
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
by MissOakland on Dec 31, 2011 12:09 AM PST up reply actions
See what happens when you leave us, MO?
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Um.
oops? Can it be better now?
Someday her tombstone will read,
"Here Lies MissOakland Barton. Hot baseball wife, beloved friend, defender of aprons." --Kyli
I sure hope so.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
um, this site is owned by Blez, he can do whatever he wants
do a godaddy.com search on this site and it clearly states who can do whatever he wants, regardless of “rules”. one person is making out the checks to godaddy.com, and it ain’t me.
if you don’t like it, no one has a gun to your head forcing you to click “www.athleticsnation.com” into your computer for a place to hang out for awhile. This is a free service (paid for by advertisers, though I don’t think the advertiser on my login, “Qualcomm Snapdragon” is an immediate purchase I’m contemplating). If you want a “citizen’s democracy”, vote with your feet and look elsewhere for your A’s news. If the site owner wants to retain some sense of value that this site has built up from the contributions of its users, then he should quickly figure out a solution or risk trying to sell ad space to a site with all of 7 unique viewers.
This reminds me of all the people who complain about Facebook’s changes and privacy – it’s a free service and no one’s forcing you to use it. If you don’t like the contract you’re about to enter into, don’t enter into the contract!
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 29, 2011 11:21 PM PST reply actions
My guess is that the site is hosted on their own servers somewhere, and GoDaddy is only the domain registrar.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 1:28 AM PST up reply actions
I think you've nailed it.
If you want a "citizen’s democracy", vote with your feet and look elsewhere
AN is not a citizens’ democracy, no matter how much many of us would like it to be that way. That line was crossed once Blez decided to go take his site and make his fortune, dragging us along with, for better or for worse.
I should have left with the first wave, but I was too busy arguing with those cats about other petty things to agree with them on what was truly important… the preservation of the A’s blogging community as a close analogue of a free citizen democracy.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 8:55 AM PST up reply actions
I don't get your dissatisfaction with Blez' choice?
There are only a few ways to provide a satisfactory experience for the users of a ‘successful’ (i.e., widely used) website:
- charge advertisers in order to pay for the costs of running the site, like this site does. If the site is big enough, which SBN is, then it needs paid administrators/behind-the-scenes people to keep it running smoothly.
- constantly request donations and have a huge community of dedicated administrators/behind-the-scenes people, e.g., Wikipedia.
- use one of the huge (also for-profit) aggregators such as Yahoo or Google, and be beholden to their rules, formats, etc.
- charge users.
- rely on a wealthy benefactor.
In NONE of these other cases is it reliably more likely that a wildly successful site such as SBN can achieve any higher ‘analogue of a free citizen democracy’ than is achieved right here at AN.
For example, if we were truly a ‘free citizen democracy’ we would either have eventually had to vote on whether either or both dfa and PL78 should be banned, or else we would have had to abandon the site to their constant flamewars, and the same people who are unhappy about dfa being banned would be agitated if a majority voted for the ban, and the same people who are happy that PL78 is banned would leave the site if the majority voted not to ban him.
Same result, different methodology. Nothing wrong with the structure of the site itself, just overreaching by the administrator Nico, whose fate is being hashed out right here, right now, in public. At least until such time as we are told ‘move along now, nothing to see here’. Which hasn’t happened at all, yet.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 8:52 AM PST up reply actions
This makes no sense
Why would I quit the blog and hope some kind of attenuated economic impact eventually causes some kind of change, when I could ask the owner to change instead?
That’s a far more efficient solution.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Only if it's effective. If you request falls on deaf ears, then it's a stay or go question
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, sure
I’m just saying, “exit” is rarely an efficient solution when “voice” has not been proven to be ineffectual.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
which you did do (ask the owner to change instead)
my indirect point was the same as your above appeal to the economic interest holder of this site to take action if they wish to preserve the goodwill value built up by the members of this site.
I think we were aiming at the same point. I apologize if I didn’t reference your point above.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 30, 2011 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
do a whois search, and it's all publicly accessible info.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 29, 2011 11:23 PM PST reply actions
I see that the site is worth $7,406 according to website2value.com, while halosheaven
is worth $2,564. Is this at all credible?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2011 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
I would guess its like a zillow estimate
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
That's not the website value. That's the domain name value.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2011 1:29 AM PST up reply actions
Good.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 8:48 AM PST up reply actions
A few last thoughts on this
While compelling and eye-opening in its way, this meta thread is very depressing, in large part because I know and like many of the people who are involved or are most affected by this.
Stuff I’ve learned…
— People flag others on AN all the time. I’ve never done so, even when bothered by something directed at me in a discussion. Mostly, I just remind myself that it’s still an Internet site, and people are ruder – or more blunt – in such venues than in real life.
— There are these rules, and subsets of rules, and exceptions to rules that are invoked, and I didn’t know most of them even existed. I’m not a big “rules” guy (see my first item), but if you’re going to have rules, you ought to be clear on what they are so there aren’t so many misunderstandings and allegations of “abuse of power” and other things.
— Even if every rule is written down, there are still going to be exceptions and inconsistent decisions that some people aren’t going to like. Some people will respond by leaving, or getting banned, or threatening to go. That’s just the way it is.
— As noted by rollierollieOxenfree, this is Blez’s site. He decides who will run AN, and he makes the rules. I remember one of the first flaps, between Blez and a regular contributor over the no politics rule. I liked the contributor, and didn’t think the rule was necessary. The regular contributor left, for that and other reasons. I wasn’t happy about the outcome, and there weren’t hundreds of posts written over it back in those days, but these sorts of tensions aren’t new. They’re just magnified.
— It’s not going to be a lot of fun being an A’s fan for a while. It would be nice if this site could still be fun. I don’t have any magical solutions, and I only have a partial view of the facts, but it’s something that anyone involved in trying to resolve this should keep in mind.
by bear88 on Dec 30, 2011 1:39 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
Good points, all
But especially the last one. I need a place for smart, rational discussion of a team in rebuilding (?), relocation (?), tear down (?) mode. Insight about the low minors will be more important than ever. This is the only place to find it. Let’s get this fixed and move on. Please.
Umm... this is certainly not the only nor even the best place for smart rational discussion of the A's in rebuild mode.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Please educate me
I’ve been disappointed in other A’s sites, but I’d be happy to learn about any I’ve missed.
I would like to ban “umm” on this and all blogs. It’s unnecessary and condescending.
I know there is a cool site out there for content but not discussion...
Can’t remember what it is……..
AN is awesome for discussion though, even if we all get feisty and ornery.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Can't remember if I've mentioned it, but I like your site
Big ups to you for writing it.
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 30, 2011 10:18 AM PST up reply actions
Thank you!
In the name of shameless self-promotion have you checked out the podcast too that I do with cuppingmaster, MrBendy and davidwiers?
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Tarp Talk
http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/tarp-talk-an-oakland-as-podcast/id486176218 for direct download.
Or tarptalkpodcast.wordpress.com gives you some more options.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Thanks
I will most definitely download and listen.
by Glorious Mundy on Dec 30, 2011 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Well thank you!
We record a new one tonight :D
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
NO! Haha
Gio and Bailey trade breakdowns
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
we refrain from meta
especially now that Jai Miller is out
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 30, 2011 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
Someday, when I have microchip implants and can process audio information at at least 60x speed,
I’m totally going to go back and listen to your podcasts,
as well as the entire King Crimson catalogue.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
AN tends to get a little... angry... when the team is in rebuilding mode.
Just a little.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Good Point(s)
Particularly the first one. After all, it is the Internet, and because you’re not actually really talking to someone, there can be misunderstandings, whatever they may be about. I’m sure people have had arguments or falling-outs over a text, comment, tweet, etc, because they misunderstood the other person and it couldn’t be properly clarified. Just try to think about what you’re writing, make sure your point is coming across the way you want it to, and try to get over misunderstandings or such.
by Sean Fortuna on Dec 30, 2011 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
In the words of Rodney King
“I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?”
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
Occasional poster's thoughts
I’m not a diehard A’s fan (GO JAYS) but I have always been a fan of this community and have loved the passion of your fans. This thread I find pretty troubling as banning a longtime community member for a seemingly non-offense and then refusing to justify your actions to the community is rather unsettling. I feel that Nico owes it to the community to post in this thread but it seems that he enjoys the attention he is being given here and I have a hunch that he either won’t respond OR will only respond after the thread has died down so he can bring the attention back to myself. It is obvious that Nico is still watching this site (he did ban the poster after all) but he is doing nothing to defuse the situation which seems contrary to the roll of moderator.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 9:59 AM PST reply actions
On the other hand
If I was Nico, would I jump into this shitstorm and roil the waters even more? Probably not.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 30, 2011 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
A simple "my bad" often goes a long way
I always tell my students to admit your mistake and apologize for your actions. How much angrier can you get at somebody when they say “I messed up and I will do better in the future”?
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
You know this is the internet, right?
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 30, 2011 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
perhaps Nico is cooling off a bit too
Take a break, chill out, and think.
by MobiusKlein on Dec 30, 2011 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
Banning a poster and then taking a sabbatical seems kind of dumb
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
The irony is that he was on sabbatical while banning the poster
who needled him for posting while supposedly on sabbatical.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
Oh no, it's not improper, just amusing.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
That was my thought process
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
I wasn't going to be the one to say it
But even if Nico doesn’t HAVE to make a public statement on this, I think it’s the right thing to do given the entirety of the situation.
Yes, mikev can and does poke and prod at people and sometimes act like a jerk. He’s far from the only one who’s ever done that. Hell, I’VE done that before on more than one occasion, and I’ve got a strike for it in the past.
But, see – I got a strike through the CGV process. I wasn’t banned, temporary or otherwise, and told “You have to talk to me before I let you back in” or anything like that.
If this really is all over the “Notice me!” comment, I don’t see it as grounds for even a temporary ban. If that’s what it was for, the normal CGV process should have been followed and, if applicable, a strike issued. An e-mail goes out, the strike is explained, and everyone moves on.
All actions have consequences, no matter who takes them. From what appears to exist on the surface, the punishment, even if Nico considers it light or a slap on the wrist, does not fit the apparent crime and it certainly looks like it was done outside the normal guidelines.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 30, 2011 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
If I was Nico, I would publicly resign and have Blez hand it over to BBG or dan.
That way, this would all blow over and I could make almost all the off-color remarks I want and still attend tailgates and not be seen as some sort of social leper.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
Honestly, the year I spent as a gameday writer and all that was both fun and very stressful for me
It just wasn’t worth the extra stuff that goes with being in any position of power. I’d rather be able to be a regular poster without being treated like I speak for AN any time I say something.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Then again, I could see it the other way too.
I could see someone really liking being in what they perceive as a position of power, and not wanting to let go of it, especially when it connects to someone’s past dreams and paths not taken. And what in our society represents past dreams and paths not taken better than baseball?
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
There is that, yeah
It just wasn’t for me, in the end.
Besides, apart from photo stuff it’s really hard for me to come up with interesting topics on a set schedule.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Its fun but difficult to do front page
You get a lot of criticism. If you miss the mark on something, there is overwhelming group “condemnation” of it as it is easier to take a contrarian position (and this is true fo anyone) than heap on a “hey good job!”. But I do find it rewarding, it is nice to sort of set up a debate, it can be a bit thankless and I think a lot of people would better understand how difficult it can be. Like on my personal blog I can be briefer or more “this is the news”, whereas here you want to bring your A-Game more, which can be daunting at times.
Love your frontpage writers! :D
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Hey good job!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
Thank you
I know we frequently disagree, but I am glad we can always keep it civil and joke around too! :D
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
You cannot be serious.
Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to work for this site? To give up hours, sometimes days of your week to create stories about a frankly horrible team, knowing that as soon as you post anything, people will tell you how wrong you are in 87 different ways, or mock your language usage, or whatever else is sporting for the day. Do you know what’s it like to try to keep the peace on a site when the ONLY thing people agree on is liking the A’s, and I’m not so sure that is the case any more?
It is a thankless task. Where the hell is the, “thanks baseballgirl, Dan, EN, LB, NICO, Blez, Don, etc. for keeping the front page up and running with fresh content during one of the worst years in baseball for the Oakland Athletics, with no real hope for the next few seasons.”
Hey, thanks for taking away hours of our precious holiday with the number of meta-posts we have had to deal with. But don’t worry; having the position of power sure makes up for it.
My god, I’m disgusted. And just flat out pissed. I’ve given so much of my personal time, money, physical and emotional energy to this site, and it’s just nice to know how little we are thought of in return.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 30, 2011 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 26 recs
Thank you BaseballGirl!
From, “etc.” :D
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Rec'd
"Hello and welcome to another wonderful and frightening night of A's baseball." - Gaijin_Suketto
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Dec 30, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
thanks BBG!
I’m sorry you feel it’s a thankless task, and I’m sorry you’re disgusted and pissed. I’ve always enjoyed your writing.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
Well said.
In fact, it’s all that needs to be said. This will be worked out, or not worked out, between two parties. In the meantime, it’s damaging to the people who put in long hours on behalf of a not very good team.
Hope your holiday looks up. And thanks to you and the others – especially Nico, who gets his ass flamed here constantly – for the work you do on our behalf.
by coffee roaster on Dec 30, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
I know how hard it is, having been on that side
But as bad as the whole timing of this thing is, and whatever fault there is that may be directed toward mikev and Nico, the ban was also enacted during the holiday season after a major bit of news about the Gio trade was learned.
There are also serious concerns about the way authority was used to deal with mikev in a form most of us have not seen done before, leading to a number of legitimate gripes about just how power is being used here in lieu of the CGV/strike system.
I don’t know what’s being done to address that, but it is a necessary discussion. It’s obviously one that a number of active, longstanding members of AN care enough about to voice those concerns.
Holidays or not, it matters enough that there ought to be something more to be heard soon, whether that’s “Nope, mikev’s still banned until he does what Nico asked him to,” “Hey, mikev’s back and we’re going to look at how this was handled so it can be done better in the future,” or whatever else that ends up being.
The issues people have with this, as a whole, are completely separate from the appreciation people have given you and the rest of the writers time and time again.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 30, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
And don't get me wrong...
…I don’t do this to be thanked. I do it because I love the A’s, I love writing about the A’s, and I love the community that has been built. I don’t do it for power, or recognition. It’s just too big of a commitment and too thankless a task to do for any other reason than personal enjoyment.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 30, 2011 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
I'm all for the power.
When I walk down the street people always ask me my AN screenname….
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
It's not on your AN tatoo?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
I really don't think G_S was alluding to you, BBG.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 30, 2011 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
I've always thought that the "need" to produce constant front page content does little for the community and a lot for SBN's bottom line.
I’ve argued since 2009 (when I started caring) that ALL front page contributors should be paid, even if the pay is a symbolic pittance.
I’m sorry I hurt your feelings and that you thought I might be possibly talking about you. I was trying to talk about how someone in the chief administrator’s position might feel, without crossing the line into a personal attack on the current chief administrator.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Not having fresh content makes the site look dead at first glance
Like or not, fresh content is generally a proxy for quality for most people.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 30, 2011 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
I like freshness in general.
It smells like spring.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
On the real...
Thanks for the work you do BBG. Keeps the FP fresh and interesting. But if you’re not getting tossed down some cabbage from the powers that be, for your efforts of assistance in making AN what it is, then I volunteer to be your Scott Boras to secure you some proper Quan.
"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff
by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 30, 2011 12:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ya it seems like there should be some compensation however small.
Just because a person loves their job doesn’t mean they shouldn’t share in the money.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
The selling-out for money of the community in the first place was the original sin.
I was too cynical, depressed, and stoned to care much about it at the time, but that’s my problem, not anyone else’s.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, I'm all for money. It's very useful. I'll take anyone's if they don't want it.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
even if its in some pseudo-currency like the euro?
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 30, 2011 10:20 PM PST up reply actions
Sure, I hear it'll be tradable for Drachmas soon
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
My Guess Is That:
This was not a one-off reaction. There had to be more to it. A build-up over time. I know both of these guys and I don’t think Nico would do that for a one off statement.
That being said, I believe in allowing sites to be Web Logs. Places for people to share their experiences and express themselves to whatever extent they wish, even if it is a personal attack on someone’s opinion, not the person themselves. As long as it isn’t directed at race, religion, sex or sexual orientation (You get what I’m aiming at).
the whole Notice Me! Notice Me! post was a bit Mikev-like, he can be snarky at times, but want’s banable in itself.
Without Blogs to express myself, I don’t know what I’d do on some days. I’d probably be reduced to wearing a sandwich board around San Jose.
Vast boars and huge gigantic bull
Elephants, rams, eagles, condors...
- J Kerouac
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on Dec 30, 2011 10:32 AM PST reply actions
You better not that is in my sandwich board territory
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 30, 2011 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
has mikev been reinstated?
Is there really any other resolution here? It seems relatively simple, and yet I read that various moderators and parties are “working” on a resolution. Shouldn’t he be reinstated before the “truth and reconciliation” committee is established? Come on!
I know it's the holidays, and people are busy, and something like this takes some time if there's actually multiple people involved in the decision making this time--
but yeah, it seems like reinstatement now and working on the details later would be a good-faith gesture.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 30, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this entire post warrants this...
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 30, 2011 10:47 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I think it's weak that several of us are so damn sensitive
If someone calls you an asshole, big deal. That rarely happens, but just sayin’. I love the Bay Area, but it’s a product of the region we live in. There should be a giant sign on I-5 just south of Stockton – “Now Entering the Bay Area – Watch What You Say, Because Everything Will Be Received as if You Meant To Hurt Our Feelings.”
We take ourselves far too seriously … I got a strike because I sad PT probably lived with his mother – I had no idea I was right – it was just poking fun … but you’d of thought I’d written all sorts of racist/vulgar things. Unbelievable.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
by Vacafan on Dec 30, 2011 11:36 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
The nuances and layers upon layers of politeness in the Japanese language exist,
because back in the day, the culture was so warlike that most anything could be received as if it was meant to hurt feelings, and tens of thousands of people died in battles that started from diplomatic miscommunication and perceived linguistic aggression.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm going to have to learn Japanese to post here now? Fine. I'll make the effort. It'll be fun.
Also I don’t think Paul lives with his mother anymore.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
This is true
(The living with my parents part, that is, not the learn Japanese part.)
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Very gracious of you, given that you already know Japanese
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
I think it would be more accurate to say that I have forgotten a lot of Japanese than that I know it
Though, my dad did recently give me a 50-episode samurai drama on flashdrive, so perhaps that will refresh my memory a bit.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
That will just be samurai japanese. You'll need to brush up on karaoke
Japanese separately
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
"Gratuitous Asshole"
is even MORE rare. It’s like a unicorn; almost never happens.
Mark Ellis!
http://www.mjvspring.com/images/Catpicts/0211R-063FGN_LG.jpg
Slegna must die!
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 30, 2011 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1 Vacafan
Some people here a way too sensitive and/or flag happy.
That has nothing to do with me being flagged here and there as probably over 50 percent of the time I deserved it.
Along with the majority here, I enjoy and appreciate BBG and other writers for the time they put in here to make this a better site.
I love the A’s like everyone here and I do respect and appreciate all the time that posters put in with their stats and analysis.
I keep it simple in that department. I watch the game (Have done so since 1989) and make my opinions on players and teams etc. If someone sucks, I say it and don’t feel the need to type 15 pages of info why I think they suck. For those that go into a detailed explanation, that’s fine too. I just don’t have the inclination or time to do so.
There is room on this site for everyone and we should tolerate each other a little more and not run to the flag button when they get their feelings hurt.
As far as MikeV and Nico go. I hope this is worked out for all concerned and we all move on with a better understanding.
I like Mike, he calls it like it is and is straight to the point and I enjoy Nico’s articles and mostly his sense of humor so I would like to see a solution to this and see everyone back so we can rip the shit out of why this team will suck for awhile (LOL)
Now I am off to buy a $5 Mega Millions ticket. I got 6 numbers last time but the problem was only 4 of them were on the same line and the remaining 2 were on the next.
Maybe I can get all six on the same line. If I do, I will be awakening from the dream shortly thereafter.
what right do I have to not be insulted?
or perhaps ‘right’ is to strong a word – how about
What consideration do I deserve to have a place in my life where I do not have to fend off various hostile words?
Come home from work, want to hang with some folks online. Can I want a place with fewer mean words, more nice words?
Having zero offending glyphs is not possible. But when does the occasional slight become a stalking presence?
I figure that I can give some back at someone who starts it, but not start hazing the new guy just cause he’s an easy target. Not all of us are crusty 43 year olds with stone skin. It’s not boot camp, where we gotta toughen up for the war.
by MobiusKlein on Dec 31, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
Japanese is easy.
日本語を学ぶには非常に難しいそうしないようになっている。単語を発音すると、当然、ヘリウムをsnortingしているかのように音を強制的に。
I know only enough Japanese to be a dumb tourist.
The history and the development of the language and how rapidly it has assimilated foreign words and domestic social concepts and evolved accordingly is incredibly fascinating, though.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
This is hilarious in Google Translate
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
back-up catcher
I think MikeV is pretty funny. This entire issue is actually pretty funny. When I was banned it wasn’t funny. Billy Beane gutting the major league team is so funny the team will probably be unwatchable next year. Time to sign Richie “Wampum” Allen or a washed up Willie McCovey.
Hello, good sir.
You got banned too, outside of the context of the three strike system, not just mikeV and DFA.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 30, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
In a strange way,
that makes some sense. Most of the guys who are otherwise going to be on the MLB roster could do the AAA thing, while 23-25 old timers with one foot on the banana peel could be signed to 1-year, 1-million-dollar contracts. So your 25 million dollar payroll would be a roster full of retired All-Stars, and hell, that might draw pretty good. Who wouldn’t pay to see 76-year-old Sandy Koufax make 32 starts? (Yes, he might only last a total of 32 innings, but let’s not digress, ok?)
And if these contracts are pro=rated, why, the roster-churning could be endless, and it isn’t like management isn’t down with that process, right? This idea should be fleshed out.
Bobby Shantz is apparently still alive. And Jack Cust.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 30, 2011 6:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Hi Folks
I’m sorry that I’ve stayed silent for so long, but one of the things I feel most strongly about is that if I contact an individual privately about anything of a problematic nature, I should not discuss it publicly with the community, certainly not before discussing it privately with the individual.
However I have reached out directly, by email, to mikev, and suggested that we talk on the phone or meet in person, and he has declined. It remains an open offer but until/unless he changes his mind I feel I have done what I can at this point to have an open dialog with him.
And to those who feel strongly I should have said more, or been more specific about details, please know that I hear your opinion, but that I just didn’t feel it was appropriate for me to do so.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 30, 2011 6:24 PM PST reply actions 7 recs
Thanks Nico!
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Dec 30, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
This does beg for further questions, though
Is mikev still banned?
If he is, until when? Until he meets you in person or talks to you on the phone?
If so, is refusal to meet you in person or talk to you on the phone a banable offense on AN?
Also, there is the issue with deleting this post that I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 30, 2011 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Happy New Year Nico and Poochini!!!
Good to see you here.
Hang on..Not ignoring..On the phone!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
As it is 4:34 AM here, I might not be around when your phone call is over
Let me just preemptively say that if Mike remains banned after this, we need new CG which will just say “TCA does what TCA wants”.
You have banned Mike without a single explanation why, neither to him, nor to community. Once you finally wrote an e-mail to him and he was more than willing to engage in a discussion about what the mysterious reason for his banning is, you change your mind and you now say “e-mail is not good enough, it has to be in person or on the phone”?!
And you present it to the community as if Mike refuses the dialogue?!
Really?
Careful Brenarlo
Honestly, if it turned into needing to call or meet, I'd turn that down too at this point
Last of the Ninth - Photography
That's fine.
It’s his choice.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, I can only speak for myself...
…but it’s been tons of fun having my personal emails posted on the internet.
"Oh who am I kidding? The A's and Giants could stage a pillow fight, and I'd still care who wins." -67Marquez
by baseballgirl on Dec 30, 2011 8:41 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly, he's had the opportunity every step of the way
either not to have commenting privileges interrupted in the first place, or to have them reinstated if he wanted to.
On 12/10 I asked him to email me, in a message I know he received, and had he none of this ever would have happened.
On 12/22, I asked him to email me and he didn’t, though I was planning to reinstate the moment I heard from him.
On 12/30, I reached out to him and asked for a phone or in-person conversation (I do not feel email would be the right way to have this dialog at this point), and was planning to reinstate him thereafter, and he has (so far) declined.
Sure, you can say, “You keep setting the parameters,” which is absolutely true, but I can also say, “He can accept them anytime,” which is also true. I’ve asked him, in each correspondence, to engage with me in a dialog, in a manner that I thought, at that point, would be appropriate. He has declined each time. If he changes his mind, we’ll talk and he can be reinstated, if that’s what he wants. The ball’s in his court; in fact it has been in his court the entire time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm confused.
Was it not possible to follow exactly the same steps, but without banning him?
by oblique on Dec 30, 2011 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, no question.
From my POV, I wasn’t “banning” him, I was “suspending commenting privileges until you honor the request I made 12 days ago,” but I totally understand how from the community’s POV “a ban is a ban”. And given that he had completely ignored a specific request from the chief administrator to contact him, I felt that was a show of disrespect sufficient to warrant “suspending commenting privileges until you honor the request I made 12 days ago,” and I recognize that this perspective is one some will share and others won’t.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I still say the CGV/strike system should have been used
But, that’s not my call. That’s yours. And, it also ultimately affects how some people are going to perceive the way power is used here from this point forward.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 30, 2011 8:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I would greatly, greatly suggest updating the CGs to reflect this because this doesn't jive with how that page reads to me.
If this is policy, it should be far more clear.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 30, 2011 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did you read the whole page?
Because there’s been a disclaimer at the bottom of it since it was posted, AFAIK:
General Disclaimer: What is written above are guidelines that help to explain the policies, procedures, and processes AN generally uses. This is a private blog and it is entirely at the administrators’ discretion how to interpret and implement these guidelines. AN is ultimately a “benevolent dictatorship,” not a democracy.
And I’m saying that not in order to call Nico a “tyrant”, but to point out that the Communities Guideline page explicitly states that these are guidelines and normal practices, not absolute rules.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I've read it. Several times.
And while it has a disclaimer and also says elsewhere that the chief administrator has unilateral ban power, it also has the implication that the CGV system is the primary system used, and that use of banning is for “grievous” situations.
I feel that it should be a little more clear that apparently certain obligations exist outside the site itself in order to maintain posting privileges.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 30, 2011 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Gow explicit do you think this needs to be?
The CGV page is already long and somewhat convoluted. I’ve been here for the whole history of the thing — the genesis of the system, all the tweaks, the various debates over Violations “rolling off” and how people could exploit that system to schedule statements that cross the line, but do so in a way that avoids bans.
Yes, it could be edited to repeat that disclaimer a few times during the text. Is that the kind of edit you’d suggest?
More and more and more specificity isn’t always helpful or enlightening. This is just a blog, not a labor contract. At a certain point we’re just going to say, “Use common sense.” This whole discussion boils down to people trying to figure out where the common sense lies here.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 30, 2011 8:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been here the whole time, too. Through all the growing pains of it, I'm well aware that it's long and complicated. :)
I’m just sayin’ — if I can get banned on a whim, I want to be well aware of that. It’s hard for a community to operate when we assume a particular paradigm for dealing with issues and then we see something entirely different done.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 30, 2011 8:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well as a technical matter, the disclaimer basically adds up to "you can be banned on a whim"
I mean, let’s be blunt about that. That’s the way it is and always has been.
The issue here, I think, has to do with the merits of the situation, the “common sense” thing I referred to above. From the discussion below it sounds like Nico had concerns relating to some of mike’s comments, and contacted him directly asking mike to get back to Nico about it, and mike decided not to respond. 12 days later (and I’m not sure what might or might not have happened over those 12 days) Nico suspended mike’s ability to post.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Right, except it's become increasingly clear that it's not benevolent
This entire episode is a perfect example of the kind of cynical manipulation and propaganda that real, nasty dictatorships engage in.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Amen to that
I lived in one, I should know
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
why no flag and go through the cg'c?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
So, in order to participate all members have to read all the TCA's communications?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I'm sorry I don't know what "TCA" means
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
the chief administrator
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Oh, gotcha. Sorry!
Yes, I think if TCA specifically asks you to contact them offline, you are obliged to do so and that not to is a statement of disrespect. If the implied question is, “Are members obliged to show some basic respect for the chief administrators?” the answer is either “Yes” or “I think they should be.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This sounds like you didn't like mike making fun of you
so making fun of tca is bannable.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Per below, that wasn't the only issue I wanted to discuss with him
I’m not aware, though, of many places out in the world, where publicly making fun of that place’s chief administrator won’t get you “banned” so I’m not sure of your point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, the United States of America, for one
I get that the blog is not a democracy. But I’m not sure I would’ve figured out from reading the rules (and participating quite a bit, though it’s been a while) that making fun of you would precipitate a ban, especially when there are community rules in place around “personal attacks” and the like.
by oblique on Dec 30, 2011 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmm...I don't think "making fun of me precipitates a ban"
is very accurate. I’d say in the time I’ve been Blogfather, a lot of people have gone out of their way to publicly disrespect me, without getting banned.
“Repeatedly making fun of a chief administrator, and repeatedly making other problematic comments to others, over a period of time, and then ignoring an administrator’s direct request for contact,” however, can get your commenting privileges suspended until you honor the request from 12 days prior.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This should be posted in the CG if it's actually
the guiding principle of this site. It renders the CGV/Strike system a farce, and totally disrespects every moderator who gives up his/her time and efforts for free. Why should they bother to do that if all it takes is a little needling to cause you to take extrajudicial actions rather than the “grievous” actions that are described in the CG? You yourself admit that MIkeV did not actually violate any of the CG that would warrant a strike.
There are numerous comments in this thread defending you, and the work you do from moderators and posters — particularly iglew and BBG. In bypassing them you have insulted them, whether they say so or not. You have not thanked them for their efforts here. I hope you do so regularly off line.
"Repeatedly making fun of a chief administrator, and repeatedly making other problematic comments to others, over a period of time, and then ignoring an administrator’s direct request for contact,"
This comment is completely unprofessional, and is a very poor reflection on you and SBN.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 30, 2011 11:37 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Nico is very appreciative and thankful
I am not taking a side in this issue. I can see both points of view. But it should be known that Nico has been great to me. My stuff this fall hasn’t got much attention because on Sundays everyone is all football, but it means a lot to get an e-mail saying, you’re doing good work, thanks for your contribution and Nico has done that. Whatever anyone’s disagreements are here, let’s not forget that behind screennames there are people.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
by dwishinsky on Dec 30, 2011 11:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's very nice and I'm glad to hear it.
Are you a moderator as well, or strictly a front page writer?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:28 AM PST up reply actions
Nico does thank me regularly
— he gives out far more thanks than he receives — and I don’t feel disrespected by his comment here. Also, you exaggerate how good a mod I am. Most of us have gotten a bit lazy about monitoring flags, and that contributed to the problem here.
I do wish Nico had let the situation with MikeV run through the three-strikes system rather than pursue it privately on his own. I do think that was poor judgment and a mistake. But in the context I can understand how the mistake was made, and I don’t think he was the primary culprit in the way that mistake ran out of control and became uncorrectable.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
It's good to know that work, however mediocre,
is appreciated.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
FK does this on the front end by hiding itself from google searches, right?
Take down that barrier and the mods there would be forced to start banning people (if, indeed, no one’s ever been banned from there).
That isn’t to say that that model is wrong, it’s just very different from the AN model, and the SBN model that evolved from it.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 7:51 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, it's a smaller community.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Exactly -- it's small by design
Both communities have had to answer the question, “How do we make sure we like coming here and communicating in this forum? how do we make sure the forum doesn’t drift off base, get dominated by bots or trolls, or otherwise deteriorate?”
AN has answered that question by having an absolute open-door-in policy — anyone can join in about a minute and start commenting. AN discovered that that kind of open-door-in policy necessitated some kind of (involutary) open-door-out policy. That is, the community and the owner and Admins et al have developed systems for 86ing people who screw the place up.
FK, it seems to me, has gone the opposite route: I suppose the door is technically open, but it is deliberately hidden. There is no way to chance upon FK unless you are looking for it and know the URL ahead of time. If you have a huge bouncer at the door making sure only previously-known or -approved people discover the door, you can basically do without an out door.
I have noticed that even the FK’ers (BTW, I am not using that kakophemistically here, that just seems like the best abbreviated term) avoid referring to it by name, and don’t link to the site. And since I’ve never tried to join there, I’m not even sure what the approval process is for participating there.
If AN is a sportsbar, FK is a speakeasy. That’s why I’m referring to it as FK, and the folks there as FKers. It’s their business if they don’t want to provide a map to their door. I don’t belong there and it’s not my business to do so.
Thing is, I’ve looked from time to time at their discussions (I was invited back when it opened, and declined to join), and I’d guess that 95% of their comments are made by current or former ANers. I suppose they could reach out to other online A’s communities to find new members, but to a very great degree I think FK relies on AN’s open-door-in policy to vet and screen potential new FKers. I don’t think, for instance, that el croata or mikev or DFA or Jennifer would be at FK unless they’d first been at AN. To say nothing of the first generation of FKers, like monkeyball or FSU or sal.
So to the extent that FK relies on AN (and I don’t think that’s a 2-way street, BTW), which I think is a fairly large extent, I think they’re in a somewhat difficult position to…well, to denounce the moderation system here (and it’s gone beyond just denouncing Nico — el croata, for instance, has indicated on this thread that he believes that the moderation system at AN is intrinsically authoritarian), or the existence of blog moderation per se.
I think they’re in a difficult position for two reasons: 1) Putting a bouncer at the door is also questionably democratic. It seems to me that they moderate the community on the front end, by keeping people from joining in the first place. 2) Without the structurally authoritarian place over here, their community would be much worse off. That is, they take direct advantage of AN’s open-door-in policy, which is what allows AN to vet and recruit future FKers. And as I said above, you can’t have an open-door-in without an involuntary open-door-out.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't recruit at all
(and you acknowledge that with “avoid referring to it by name, and don’t link to the site”) and it would be tacky to do so
Someone over here does our recruiting for us.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Dec 31, 2011 7:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
There's been recruiting over here in this thread
Not the kind that would attract people you don’t want in the speakeasy. But there’s been one “I can email you the URL” offer.
And I was myself recruited when FK first started up by one of FK’s original members.
I don’t have anything against the speakeasy concept, I became online friends with lots of your members, and I’ve been IRL friends with FSU and Mrs. FSU for nearly 20 years. I like many of the FKers.
In any case, I stand by my analysis: FK is sort of a speakeasy in the back of the AN sportsbar. FK has always relied on AN’s reach and open-door-in policy, and AN needs to match that open-door-in policy with moderation and a way to 86 people in order to avoid deteriorating into crap/chaos. Thus, I think that FK relies and piggybacks on AN’s system, warts and all.
Maybe I see it this way because I used to be a lit grad student, and deconstructing a binary opposition (Oppression/Freedom, Authoritarian blog/Democratic blog) is in my blood.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
To clarify:
I mean we don’t come over here and post links/requests to sign people up. Obviously people ask their friends (e- or otherwise), and I’m not surprised someone asked you.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Oh right, I realize you don't post links and have blocked off search engines
which is exactly why I’m not calling it anything other than FK and I’m not posting any links, either. As I said, that’s the choice you guys have made and, especially since I’m not even a member over there, I feel I ought to respect that choice.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Fair enough
And you’re certainly right there are benefits from all of this
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I mean it beyond just this current shit-storm
IIRC, the actual break happened way back when Nico announced the new SBN policy of posting FP post titles on yahoo sports or something, which was going to have some impact on exactly how the titles could be worded from then on. In other words, SBN was going to insist that FP titles have some relation to the article content that would be clear to a person on the yahoosports page, so that those people would want to click on the link and visit AN and maybe eventually join.
monkeyball, IIRC, considered this an imposition on his freedom to title his own posts, said it was a straw that broke this particular camel’s back, stepped down and in pretty short order founded FK. Where there continues to be a tradition of baroque post titles to this day, as far as I’m aware.
That is, the dispute was about AN commercializing and selling out, chasing new eyeballs at the expense of the current members, etc, hemming in freewheeling (and uncompensated) creativity for the sake of pageviews and, in the end, money. At least that’s my memory of it. I could definitely be forgetting part of the story (or I might never have known it in the first place!).
FK was founded in protest of the yahoosports links, of selling out to new eyeballs, etc. But in fact, FK benefits from AN’s having “sold out”, because SBN’s reach is exactly what brings so many people here. And bringing people here is what brings people (by subsequent invitation only) to FK.
Now, I don’t know exactly what brought each of the FKers to AN originally, but it wouldn’t shock me if a fair number of the 2nd, 3rd, xth generation FKers found AN originally only because of some of the choices made by Blez that monkeyball, in particular, found so objectionable. As far as I can tell, FK is thus directly connected both to the commercialization of SBN blogs, and to the active moderation that has been characterized by some here as undemocratic or authoritarian, and is reliant on both for members whom FK values.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 8:20 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
If you mean connected because attracting yahoos did, in fact, change this site
And people wanted their old site back, then sure.
But you’re overstating the barriers to entry and I don’t really understand why the connection bothers you. Either way, I’m feeling like this is entering/has entered the tacky zone as far as openly recruiting here.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
To put it briefly:
Some of those yahoos are probably now FK members.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I never meta A's fan I didn't like
Happy New Year, Nick!
Everybody's got a little light under the sun.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 31, 2011 9:41 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Happy New Year, FSU, From 2012 back to 2011!
So far the view looks pretty similar.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
So "insubordination" is now an "egregious" CGV?
You’d better add that to the CGs, as I think a lot of people will be interested to know that you consider yourself to have the power to command them to take specific activities in specific manners as a condition of continued posting privileges.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
I'm pretty sure everyone knows that now
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
BTW, just a general disclaimer:
I apologize if my answers become short or less frequent, and please don’t interpret it as reflecting any “tone”. My right elbow, where I have a ligament injury, is killing me and typing this much hurts like heck.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The question that I would like to see answered:
if there’s an issue with something mikev said or did on AN, why wasn’t the CGV system used to address it?
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
To me, the CGV system adequately manages
any specific comments that may cross the line. If I get involved one-on-one behind the scenes, you can reasonably assume that no one specific comment is at issue but rather that I feel the need to address a pattern or trend over time, not any one comment in particular.
In those cases, it may not be that any specific comment is worthy of a “flag” or “strike” yet a private one-on-one conversation needs to take place about a more chronic concern.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But if specific comments aren't worthy of punishment, is banning really a fair response?
If the rules aren’t being explicitly broken?
And I guess my other concern is… if this is a pattern that involves behavior towards you, specifically (I am not privy to whatever the communications between you is, so I don’t know if that IS the case or if this is an unrelated issue — I’m just using the conjecture from here), are you necessarily the most impartial person to deal unilaterally with this issue? Wouldn’t the other mods be more neutral arbiters?
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 30, 2011 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
and why didn't a mod them initiate an email exchange with the person
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Comments around me were not the only area I wanted to address
My expectation was that I would receive a reply soon after 12/10, and I’m sorry, for everyone’s sake, that it didn’t play out that way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Stop with the modest act, please
You had ample opportunity to contact mikev, both via e-mail or by simply finding him in one of the various threads he was participating in and asking him to contact you via e-mail in a reply.
You purposely chose to avoid either action that could have ended all this before it began.
I know, I know… you’re decisions in this matter have all been mikev’s fault.
The monster at the end of this blog.
How would that help?
Nico did ask Mike to email him. In the one and only place where he is guaranteed to see it. There is no question about that.
But you’re saying here that Nico is at fault because he didn’t make the same request in two other places (ie, within an AN thread and by private email) where he is not guaranteed to see it.
How is that any better than what he did? How are either of those actions ones that “could have ended all this before it began”?
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying here, because even apart from whether we agree on the merits, this just doesn’t make logical sense to me.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 30, 2011 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
i'm confused by how a single act not deserving a strike but the actions on whole need to be discussed. i get there's gray area but it does not compute for me.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I get pop ups and notes and notices and emails from programs/people
all the time.
I usually click through them and forget about them.
It is totally reasonable for a person to close the pop up and move on and forget about it
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
This is the equivalent of saying,
“Well sure that’s my signature on the contract, but I didn’t read it!” The warn function specifically requires you to click that you have read the accompanying message. It essentially gives AN a “receipt” you can’t get with other methods of communication.
If you sign for a certified letter, which confirms “Yes, I got it,” but don’t read it, or do read it but later want to claim you didn’t receive it, and then you broadcast loudly to everyone on Twitter and Facebook that you never received it, well…ok.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What I don't understand is why you escalated this thing so quickly.
You sent him a message that he received. You waited 12 days to hear from him, then summarily banned him. WHy not wait 3 or 4 days, then send him another message warning him that if he doesn’t contact you, you’ll be forced to ban him? Or ask one of the other mods (maybe someone he seems to have a good relationship with) to try contacting him?
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
by ozzman99 on Dec 31, 2011 9:47 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't know why it took almost 2000 comments
but I just realized this is like many things my people deal with at work.
We have a system set up where, whenever a change is made to person’s schedule they get a pop up and an email reminder. This way they know they should go to training, take time to read new guidelines, go to lunch, etc.
Many times we have associates who say they “didn’t get the reminder” and that’s why they didn’t follow their schedule. Now could we simply say “well screw that-we tested the system and know you had to have got the reminder” yes. But seeing as how we are not in the business of just trying to turn over hired people, we work with them, and often have to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Dec 31, 2011 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
right, I have
a license for word perfect that I installed at home. I get a pop up everytime I open the program. I hit ignore, because I am too busy at the time, intending to do it later.
But I don’t
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Totally same page-So are you saying
you wouldn’t then expect the president of Word Perfect Inc to then demand you call or visit him before you use it again?
I’ve had times where I know damn well someone had to have seen/known what was going on and I had to take the heat because we are the bosses and thats how it works. When I took the job I understood there would be heat and bought big boy pants to handle it.
At the end of the day all of this matters little. Blez has made it clear that tca is doing a heckuva job here, and hell…its probably a good thing to have an article that gets lots of comments. But to say you got a pop up so clearly you were aware is just ignorant.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Dec 31, 2011 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Let me first answer the question
The week of 12/12-12/16 (the week leading up to Winter Break) is one of the weeks in the cycle of a school year that is “crazy busy”. Like iglew’s period each spring, I have periods at the start of the school year, end of the school year, and various points in between, that are “crazy busy”. AN was not a big part of my consciousness during that time.
I regret not making one more contact of the nature you describe (“…if you don’t contact me, I’ll be forced to suspend commenting privileges until you do”), basically following the baseball “3 strikes” principle of Try 1, Try 2, OK then… Do I think this would have played out any differently had I done that? Personally, I doubt it. Would it reflect better on me, in the aftermath, to be able to say I did that? Definitely.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not sure it would have changed anything, either.
I get the feeling that mikev, like many of us, doesn’t respond kindly to threats. That’s why I wonder why you didn’t go through someone else. Gigs, for instance, might very well have been able to open a dialogue with him on your behalf.
I know that’s it really easy for me to sit here and 2nd-guess your decisions. It just feels like you’re sentencing a guy to death for a speeding ticket.
"The Lord has blessed us with birthday cake!"
by ozzman99 on Dec 31, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
I don't even see where MikeV broke the rules.
The alleged transgression was “making fun of the chief administrator”. It’s like laughing at the mayor’s ugly sideburns with bald head…..repeatedly.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The most significant transgression was
“ignoring TCA when the TCA specifically said ‘contact me’.” I totally understand that you, and other members of the community, may not perceive this to be a significant “transgression” and it is truly a matter of opinion.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You're right, I think it's totally inappropriate
that you expect site users to contact you upon demand.
You wanna take a poll on how many posters would have contacted you if you had made a similar demand to them? The results might surprise you.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:43 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I have not heard any of Mike's side in this,
not being on Twitter and all, so I can’t say whether this is he case here. But I would say that, as a general principle, anyone who wants to get himself banned without actually breaking any rules, can easily arrange to do so.
EC has said this isn’t about Nico-Mike, it’s about what the rules should be, and in that context I’m saying that this is a universal problem that can’t be legislated around. Some people just want to defy authority. If someone is pissed off, doesn’t care about coming back, and wants to say, “I got screwed over by the Man”, he’s going to find a way to do it, no matter what the rules are.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Potential outcries using your technique:
“Why doesn’t he contact someone himself if he has a concern?”
“What a coward!”
“What is Gigs, his secretary?”
“How sexist!”
And so on.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah, cuz this is better. happy new year man. best wishes in 2012.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
If you're too closely connected to someone or something, there is nothing wrong with having an intermediary open the lines of communication
Especially if that’s made clear when it’s done.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 31, 2011 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
heck, global diplomacy wouldn't work without go-betweens
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
"What is Gigs, his secretary?"
"How sexist!"
….What.
I’m pretty sure that trusting someone to act as an intermediary in a situation isn’t sexist.
I expect the reaction would more be, “Huh. Nico’s trying to keep this fair. Okay.”
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 31, 2011 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And yes, I know that you're saying it would be an accusation, not the act,
but given the number of things that DON’T get called out as sexist on this site, if that got called out for it EVER, it would blow my mind. So yeah, I’m just calling straw man on that.
Using a neutral 3rd party normally gets at least grudging acceptance.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 31, 2011 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It appears you don't want to understand the problem
good luck
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
no its not
just like this isn’t a bar, and the A’s don’t “battle” every night.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
You've had opportunities as well, to avoid all this and to resolve the matter
Yet you refuse to acknowledge your responsibility for creating this situation.
This has happened before. I’m thinking most graphically with your efforts a while back to censor language and restrict PG-13 words to certain threads. At the end of that one, you switched from making a declaration about how things were going to be done to claiming that all you wanted to do was “have a conversation”. You create a mess and when an uproar ensues you do your best to avoid responsibility. It’s always someone else’s fault for “misunderstanding you” or some such thing.
It’s mikev’s fault you banned him.
It’s mikev’s fault you insisted he contact you before you’d reinstate him.
It’s mikev’s fault that now he has to call you or meet face-to-face before he can come back.
What else is going to be mikev’s fault?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 30, 2011 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I believe I predicted Nico would wait until the thread died down to post to bring the attention back to himself
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 30, 2011 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
Blez, BBG, and danmerqury were amongst people who suggested I needed to
come onto this thread and say something, which I declined to do until I had made a “directly reach-out to mikev” effort to open a dialog with him, but I was willing to come comment publicly once I had confirmed I had tried to open that dialog with mikev and he didn’t wish to. In general, I think it’s fair, and pretty obvious, to say that what I would like is a lot less attention on myself.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No offence but judging by your actions "a lot less attention" is not something you have been reaching for
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
Also
I’m not saying you have an easy job (quite the opposite) but it is a job you accepted so certain standards and expectations are required of you.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
I keep hearing that the administrator job is not easy. I'm not seeing
that it’s that difficult. There’s no backbreaking labor or rocket science required. How is it any more difficult than being manager of a Starbucks?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
At Starbucks you get paid and stock options
Admins don’t get anything but headaches.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
So it's about equally difficult, but pays less?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
No need to insult Starbucks managers
LOL
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
If it is "as easy as managing a Starbucks"
That is a lot of work. No one manages a Starbucks for an hour a week… If you want to say those are comparable, it means Nico is doing a lot of free work for a long time, managing many different moving parts for OUR ENJOYMENT.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I agree managing a Starbucks is a lot of work
A good friend of mine manages one. I am stating that being a mod is not nearly as time consuming as managing a Starbucks.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
I was under the impression that the administrator was paid
and was not working for free.
It is the front page writers and moderators who are doing the free work
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The Admin gets paid?
If so, they are open to criticism.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
"I had tried to open that dialog with mikev and he didn’t wish to"
You, dear Sir, are a liar
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
And, I´ll say this preemptively
I ain´t flying over to anybody´s fucking house
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not even mine? :(
…Yeah, actually, I’d rather fly to yours.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
yeah, that is plain not true
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I mean nico's statement
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Wait, wait, wait.
You’re way off base with the “e-mail is not good enough” thing. Nico emailed Mike in an attempt to talk about what he originally wanted to talk about. After hearing Mike’s side, Nico suggested that this would possibly be better done over the phone or in person, because with internet communication, it’s often incredibly hard to convey emotions and such. Mike turned him down.
That’s all. It certainly wasn’t a “first I wanted email, now it has to be more” ultimatum or anything like that.
Dan
You’re right about email. Not only is it tough to explain where someone is coming from but with the recent history of emails appearing everywhere, it’s a wise decision to have a one-on-one conversation.
I honestly think Nico runs this community very well and in a much more democratic way than many other SB Nation communities. In this particular incident I’m of the opinion that Nico contacted MikeV through our warning system as he’s required to do per our newer privacy policy on SB Nation and that user ignored the warning (we tested the warning system internally to be sure that users actually see this warning) in essence giving a big middle finger to the main person who runs the site. Nico then banned him saying that he needed to talk with him about his overall approach with the community and said he would let him back once they talked. The user then didn’t email. Nico then emailed the guy requesting to talk on the phone or meet in person for multiple reasons (one being the concerns about email privacy the other being Nico’s current medical condition). I also suggested that Nico talk with Mike over the phone or in person as well because in my experience in interpersonal communication, in person is always the best way to do things especially when it comes to contentious issues (phone being the next best thing and email is the last way you’d want to do so). Mike still refuses to communicate.
I know Mike is pissed off and I get it but the best way to solve issues is to work through them and communicate. Meet and talk it out. IMO Nico has reached out to ask for that communication and he’s been stonewalled.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 31, 2011 12:03 AM PST up reply actions 10 recs
I keep seeing this repeated and I don't understand its relevance
I honestly think Nico runs this community very well and in a much more democratic way than many other SB Nation communities.
I personally do not care whether a site is being run “democratically” or not. I would like the ground rules to be transparent and followed consistently. If it is true that an administrator can ban a user just because he feels like it, then that should be clearly stated, rather than creating a farcical CGV/Strike system that wastes the time of several moderators who seem to care deeply about this place.
Saying on the one hand that the administrator can ban a user for “grievous” conduct and then clarifying that to mean “making fun of the chief administrator without violating community guidelines” is not a sign of good corporate governance.
Your comment above reflects a belief that this is nothing more than a dispute between one of your employees and a particular individual. You do not seem to have gotten the message from this thread that it has far wider implications on your business.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:19 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
What is written and what is actually followed in practice are always two different things
The CGs cannot possibly account for all circumstances. I like mike, I really do, but even he admits he can be a stubborn ass; in such cases, that stance also cannot be allowed to win out based on a supposed democracy.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 31, 2011 12:51 AM PST up reply actions
Once again, I do not care whether this is or is not a democracy.
I want to know why the stated policies were not followed. Just saying the user is a stubborn ass does not cut it.
If the CGV/Strike procedures are merely written but not actually followed, why are all the moderators there? What is their function? Why should they bother to do any work for free?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 1:16 AM PST up reply actions
Well, I think they should be paid, too. In fact, I generally agree with the "you get what you pay for" philosophy
They are there, as the other rules are, to give at least an illusion of organization.
"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer
by cuppingmaster on Dec 31, 2011 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
Do they know that they're just a facade or do they think that they
actually have a real purpose?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 1:49 AM PST up reply actions
As I posted higher up the thread, the CGV page already makes that explicitly clear
Read the disclaimer at the end of the page.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 6:10 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
reasonable minds can disagree that this situation is clearly stated in your quote
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
How much wiggle room is there in "AN is ultimately a 'benevolent dictatorship' not a democracy"?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
It's similar to a supposedly vegetarian restaurant having a
a giant list of of procedures outlining the pains they take to verify that their foods are in fact devoid of meat, then at the very end stating that they can serve anything they want. It’s true, by the letter of the law they can.
Now let’s say the manager of this restaurant decides for whatever reason that beef stock tastes good and puts it in all the soup.
Somebody finds out and screams that they’ve been misled. The manager then points to the disclaimer saying that the restaurant can serve anything it wants.
If that somebody were you, would you be satisfied?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Why are you arguing from analogy?
The CGV page lays out a long list of procedures, then says that the procedures are guidelines, not absolute rules, and the blog is in fact run by the blogparent as a “dictatorship, not a democracy.”
As I said to Kyli somewhere else in this thread, I suppose the CGVs could be edited to repeat that statement a few times throughout the text. But if someone reads that whole, detailed Community Guidelines page in order to understand all the steps of the system, I think they’re fully capable of reading that last, very explicit statement as well.
More to the point: the mods who maintain that system presumably have read that page as well, including the disclaimer.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Because the totality of the CG does not convey the
message that the disclaimer will be invoked arbitrarily, and it’s not widely believed among the relevant parties that the disclaimer is the only relevant part of the CG.
I’m pretty sure that the moderators wouldn’t put in the time and efforts to moderate if they believed that they were merely window dressing and that their jobs were meaningless.
Posters wouldn’t bother to flag offensive comments for moderators, they would just contact the moderator and demand action.
I am using an analogy because it helps in explaining my point.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, here's another part of the CG page that's pretty explicit
The site’s chief administrator may, at any time, choose to bypass the three-strikes process and ban a user if he feels the circumstances warrant it. If a user’s offense is judged to be exceptionally grievous in nature, that user may be banned immediately and unilaterally.
If a user establishes a persistent pattern of interacting in a way that is disruptive or upsetting to the community, the administrator or moderators may ban that user for a 30-60 day “cooling off” period, after which the user may return.
Again, people are perfectly free to say, “I don’t think anything that mikev did fell into these categories. This was bad judgment and an injustice” — but what I’ve quoted is a very, very clear statement that the Admin can act unilaterally, and can skip the CGV process “if he feels the circumstances warrant it.”
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 31, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Absolutely. No one is disputing the legality of the action.
The question is whether it is good for the site or whether it sets a precedent that will:
1) Make posters uncomfortable and irritated
2) drive sticky eyeballs away and hurt the AN brand.
It’s pretty clear to me from the reaction here that both are true
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't want to put words in your mouth
but on this thread alone, grover has called Nico a “tyrant”, PaulThomas has analogized Nico’s decision to the propaganda of totalitarian regimes (I think that’s the term he used — apologies if that’s not an exact quotation), and el croata has compared Nico’s leadership to that of Tito, I think (depending on how old el croata is, I suppose). And you’ve questioned how any mods can carry out their responsibilities if the TCA can act unilaterally, and outside the bounds of the rules.
So that all sounds to me as if people are questioning the legality of the action.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
If there's one thing I have issue with as far as WC's position is concerned...
…it’s the points being made about how the other mods feel.
I’d rather leave it up to each of them to decide whether or not this situation is something they’re comfortable with or not instead of seeing anyone attempting to basically speak for them.
For all any of us know, they’ve talked about this since then in private. Maybe they haven’t. I don’t know.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
We have two mods -- iglew and
Bloom — who have both said they disapprove of this action. iglew calls it a “mistake”, while Bloom seemed genuinely offended that the mods were not consulted.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
So just to be clear, here
are you saying that Nico’s decision was legal within the posted rules of AN? If so, then it sounds to me as if you’re saying that the system, as written and designed, is inherently authoritarian, in that it explicitly allows the person in charge to make unilateral decisions of this type. Do I have that right?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yes, it was
Just as for example Tito´s decisions (well, those of his employees) to jail people who voiced opposition to the system were legal because the leader basically had the authority to do everything “should the situation warrant it”, the fine print of the AN CG makes it legal for Nico to ban whomever he pleases and to delete all the posts he dislikes.
I can still find both appalling, each one in its own right and own gravity, of course.
Careful Brenarlo
Missing the point
It was perfectly “legal” for those regimes to do what they did. If the laws legalize arbitrary action, then taking arbitrary action is not “illegal.”
You’re confusing legality with legitimacy.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Oh, and the term "benevolent dictatorship" is taken right out of the rules, so don't be accusing me of Godwinning the thread
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I don't think I am, Paul
They’re distinct issues, but they’ve both been discussed on this thread. A number of people (e.g., Kyli and WC) have asserted that the rules don’t allow what Nico did, or that the part that allows it wasn’t clear or explicit. Others seem to be saying that the rules allow it, but imply that they shouldn’t.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
legal or not (and i think it's legal), it was without precedent to my knowledge (i don't remember the outrage at any other banning aside from dfa's). that's significant too.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
and nico's modest proposal confirms this view, me thinks.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I'm saying that disclaimers are meant
for legal protection and should not be relied upon in the normal course of business.
If I pulled out our disclaimer that we’re allowed to do whatever we want every time a client questioned one of our actions, we’d have no clients
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:48 PM PST up reply actions
OK, to clarify, I'm not questioning the
legality of the action. I’m questioning whether it’s appropriate behavior in a business setting.
In my business it would not be.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
While I side more with Nick than with you
on this point, one thing I will agree with is that the CG page is an unwieldy mess in great need of a rewrite.
I’ve witnessed and been involved in many of the recent evolutions of it, and it has long been in my mind that the whole thing needs a complete overhaul. For more than a year, I’ve hoped to find time to volunteer for that, and now I wish that I had. Perhaps after this storm passes, under whatever new regime we end up with, I’ll find time to volunteer to draft the new constitution.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Excellent analogy
Rec’d.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
the implication of guidelines means there is restraint on that power
otherwise they are meaningless and the final disclaimer is all that is needed
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
OK, try this.
Call it a working theory.
Nico fucked up. He should not have banned Mike. Instead of the initial warning, he should have identified a comment that exemplified the problem and put a flag on it. He should have emailed the other mods to draw our negligent attention to that flag. If enough mods agreed with the logic, it would become a strike, at which point Mike could either back off or else get himself two more strikes and be banned properly. Lacking that, if the mods were paying attention there is a chance one of us would have foreseen the shitstorm and quickly unbanned Mike before it got out of control.
But he didn’t, and we didn’t. We’re human and under certain circumstance we make mistakes, and under certain further circumstances a mistake can snowball and becomes a major crisis where we’re facing the prospect of losing half the community if Nico isn’t driven out.
The point of this working theory is to answer your questions:
Q. Why aren’t the stated policies followed? A. Because sometimes people fuck up.
Q. What’s the point of having procedures if they aren’t followed? A. Because most of the time they do work.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 31, 2011 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
OK, if someone who actually works for SBN agrees that the administrator
in your words, “fucked up”, and the action will be unconditionally reversed I think we’ll be on our way to a resolution.
Right now we’re getting defiance.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
The business has been set up so each community
can run and moderate their community as they see fit (with some basic overarching rules for all of SB Nation). Nico is allowed to run this community as he sees fit and make decisions based on what he views as the best interest of AN. I trust him to do that and do it the right way and professionally. I chose him to run it because he has very similar sensibilities as I do.
So while the CG were set up to aim for a democratization of AN and 95 percent of the time it works perfectly (Nico was the one who essentially not only wrote but has implemented the decision), remember that Nico can ultimately make decisions that he views in the best interest of the community. This was one of those instances as he has clearly explained above. I don’t believe that he made the decision based on the way someone did or didn’t insult him. I think it was a much larger pattern of behavior leading up to that.
Again, the system in place works beautifully most of the time. In this instance, Nico chose to use his ability to run the moderation as he sees fit which is expressly stated in the rules: General Disclaimer: What is written above are guidelines that help to explain the policies, procedures, and processes AN generally uses. This is a private blog and it is entirely at the administrators’ discretion how to interpret and implement these guidelines. AN is ultimately a “benevolent dictatorship,” not a democracy.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 31, 2011 1:23 AM PST up reply actions
It's admirable that you are standing up for your employee, but it seems to
me that both you and the aforementioned employee are, in your words
in essence giving a big middle finger
to the moderators who work so hard for your for-profit business for no pay, simply because they care deeply for the place. By enabling one employee’s arbitrary behavior, you are creating dissatisfaction on the part of those core customers who should be your biggest supporters — the moderators, front page writers and others who work for you for free.
I cannot believe that this is good for the value of your business, and I would never run my business this way. But hey, it’s your money at the end of the day.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 1:48 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Dude, stop speaking for the moderators.
Blez has been in contact with all of us. If any mod thinks Blez is giving him the middle finger, he can say so, but I’m sure most of us do not.
Blez is not enabling one employee’s arbirtrary behavior. Like the rest of us, he has come into this disaster aftermath and tried to make sense of it (and by the way he knows more of what happened than you do). He has drawn his conclusions and stated them here.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
You're saying I'm wrong and the moderators are all happy as clams?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:54 PM PST up reply actions
Nico may have made the decision he made because he viewed it in the best interest of AN --
but I feel like… this post and all the meta explosion over the last few days aren’t in the best interests of the community. The hurt feelings that have occurred aren’t in the best interests of the community. And yes, mikev is stubborn as hell, no one’s disputing that, and in his individual situation there’s stubbornness and questionable behavior on BOTH sides of the fence, from my perspective of chillin’ on the site. Neither mikev nor Nico has made this and ideal situation in this particular circumstance.
But that’s not totally what this is about anymore.
This has become about more than just that issue — this has become about whether unilateral banning of regular posters without oversight by the other mods IS best for the community. And if it is, why not just do that? Why have the other mods, why pretend that there’s any sort of semi-democratic system in place?
I like the CGV system. I like the work that the mods do, I think the strike system handles things well, and for the most part, I feel like AN can also do some internal policing when someone gets out of line (that sweet, sweet mob justice). I just don’t understand why going outside that system was necessary in this case and why going with a unilateral decision for someone who isn’t a spammer and solely here to cause problems (because while mikev can be prickly and even problematic on occasion, I don’t think it could ever be argued that his purpose here on the site is to just be a troublemaker) is in the best interest of the site and its community.
That’s really what’s coming up in this debate — what IS in the best interest of our community, in terms of the relationship between those in charge and those here to talk about Barton and bacon? Because there’s obviously a lot of people here who don’t agree that this was in the best interest of our community. Because even if we aren’t the ones with our names at the bottom, we ARE the community and want to feel heard in this situation.
At least for me, making us feel like our participation here depends not on the rules outlined but on something more arbitrary is… unsettling. While other SBN sites work that way, I like to think we’re more awesome than that. Because we’re hella awesome.
(and seeing your full name instead of just ‘Blez’ is still totally weird for me, :D)
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 31, 2011 8:59 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
(at least, this is my interpretation about what some of this conversation has become about)
(I’ve been playing a hell of a lot of Skyrim, so the sleep deprivation may be making me read some of this conversation entirely wrong)
(in which case I apologize for misrepresenting people’s arguments)
(and we still would like mike back, he brings delicious grilled things)
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Mike brings many delicious things to AN,
and not just with the grill. I too would like to have him back if somehow this can be resolved in a way where that isn’t impossible.
I will furthermore go on record and state that I, for one, would favor granting him full rights as AN rotating tagline editor, if that’s what it takes to bring him back.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I like my discussion of prospects and my stats grilled and covered in bacon.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Unsettling
At least for me, making us feel like our participation here depends not on the rules outlined but on something more arbitrary is… unsettling.
If your worry is that you too might be arbitrarily banned, perhaps you can take consolation in this: If ever that does happen, there are two very simple options available to you. (1) You could simply email Nico back when you got the first warning and none of this will ever happen. (2) You can send an email to all the mods and say, “This looks like a mistake to me. Can you please either correct it or else explain to me why it’s correct?”
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 31, 2011 5:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the best interest of this site is to have mikev back.
I think it’s incredibly selfish of him to decline a dialog with Nico.
I think your point would be more apt if
I bypassed the CGV system often. However in reality, I have chosen to contact a user privately, one-on-one, rather than use the “strikes” system, how many times over the years I’ve been Blogfather? Maybe 3 or 4 times? And always for the same reason: An ongoing pattern, not any single comment, was at the root of the issue I felt needed to be addressed.
The CGV system is used, to a tee, the other 99.8% of the time. And all I aimed to do, back on 12/10, was to have a private offline conversation with mikev and come to some mutual understandings, no “strike” no “ban” no nothing. And please don’t lose sight of the fact that had mikev emailed me, per a request he most certainly did receive, none of this would have happened. That is not to say I didn’t make mistakes after that (that’s a matter of opinion, which parts were mistakes and which weren’t), but it is to say I would not have been a position to have to make more difficult decisions that were more prone to being controversial.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Out of curiosity, if he had emailed you with "I don't want to have this conversation." would that have been considered an adequate email response and the ban wouldn't have occurred?
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Dec 31, 2011 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Do you mean in response to the "warn" message back on 12/10?
If so, I probably would have replied with something like, “Hey Mike, thing is there’s stuff we need to talk about regarding how you’re participating on the site. I feel the right way to do it is one-on-one and offline. Can we do that?”
If he still said “No” I wouldn’t have suspended his commenting privileges, since he had emailed me and hadn’t totally ignored my request. (So the answer to your specific question is, “Yes, that would have been considered an adequate email response” for the purpose of fulfilling the “email me”.)
But I would probably have said something like, “Well, ok, just FYI I’m concerned about X and Y, I’m trying to discuss it with you, and until you’re willing to just know that X and Y are problems and I can’t help you understand where the line is, or how not to cross it, if you won’t discuss it with me.”
Then I probably would have alerted the mods and they would have been on the lookout for future examples of X and Y to flag and “strike”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
that is no way to run a railroad
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That would have been fine.
Especially the last paragraph.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
no. not "often"
This was without justification.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
How many people have been banned using the strike system,
and how many have been banned “extrajudicially”? My sense is that very few have actually been executed through the strike system.
That’s the relevant comparison here. Bans (of non-spammers/trolls, that is) are inherently rare. Saying “look how rarely I do this” is not meaningful. If 80% of bans occur through administrative fiat rather than CGVs, there’s little reason for anyone to bother flagging posts.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Remember, though, that the goal of "strikes" isn't to ban people
It’s to tell them they have crossed the line and give them a chance to say, “Ooh, I don’t want to be banned, so I’m going to observe the line.” Most people who get a “strike” don’t get banned. Similarly, most people (or “all people” until this month, IIRC) who are contacted privately and asked to discuss something offline, respond and that is that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not asking to remember things I already know
I’m asking for specific information.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Once you remove the insta-ban of spammer/trolls
the “extrajudicial” bans are the minority. How many of those have their been? DFA, Mike, and who else?
PL78 went out by strikes. So did St-Joseph-Burning-Oak-Trees. So did that guy with crazy capital letters in his name. I dimly recall some guy named “HCF from Oakball” who also did. I’m pretty sure there have been others. Yes, it’s rare, but less rare than “extrajudicial” ones. Those just get more attention (as indeed they should).
Also, lots of people have gotten one or two strikes and backed down, which is really more what the system is about than actually banning people.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
BlueMoon. He wasn't a troll, he just had sort of a cultural disconnect with the saber crowd.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
RBIs baby, RBIs...
Saying RBIs instead of RBI… that’s right…
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I do care, as I would prefer that sites I frequent be run democratically,
but I agree that I’m more willing to put up with undemocratic decisionmaking as long as the rules of engagement are clear. Even if they’re as simple as “don’t be an idiot, signed, ownership.”
There’s nothing worse than a forty-page rulebook followed by a disclaimer stating that none of the rulebook matters if you feel like it doesn’t. It’s a waste of my time to even read the rules.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
That's totally fair.
Perhaps a small group of people who think they understand where that line actually is, under my leadership, can write a short version of what “don’t be an idiot, signed, ownership” should say on AN. Words like “ongoing,” “polarizing,” “mocking,” and “disrespect” might be in there.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It sounds to me like the only person you do not wish to be mocked
or disrespected on an ongoing basis is you.
Piggybacking on Paul’s question:
1) How many people have been banned via strike/CGV process by moderators for comments 100% unrelated to you?
2) How many people have been banned via strike/CGV process by moderators, in part or whole, for comments directed at you?
3) How many people have been banned by you unilaterally 100% for ongoing mocking and/or disrespecting of people other than you?
4) How many people have been banned by you unilaterally for ongoing mocking and/or disrespecting you, in whole or in part?
I would count MikeV under 4) regardless of any technicality regarding whether he is in fact banned or whether his current position is because he did or did not care to contact you.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
OK, starting with the fact that I don't know off-hand,
here are my best guesstimates from memory:
1) 6-8?
2) 0, if “in part” means any significant part, maybe 1-2 if “in part” means “even in small part”?
3) 0, or 1 if you feel PT’s situation falls under that category?
4) 1, since you count mikev under this category?
Apologies if I’m overlooking a specific situation/user. This is off the top of my head in real time and I need to log off…To meet a cool ANer for lunch!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So you are now claiming that DFA was banned due to the CGV/strike system?
That ain’t what I was told.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Where does Nico claim that?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Where he said the only people banned outside that
system were Paul and Mike
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm still not seeing it.
Which comment is that in?
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
The one immediately above mine?
Categories 3 and 4 only include me (debatably) and mike.
Since those are the two categories that deal with non-CGV bans, the implication is that DFA received a CGV ban, which is at odds with what I’ve been previously told.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Oh, I see now.
When I read #3 and #4 I was not interpreting “banned unilaterally by you” as synonymous as “banned outside of the CGV system”, but I can see how you and WC might have.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Thanks for the response and have fun at lunch!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
5) How many people were threatened by you to be banned if they don´t ease in their responses to you
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
0?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Understanding, of course, that there are two Nicos involved.
1. Threatened because of remarks to Nico the commenter.
2. Threatened because of remarks to Nico the Administrator.
There is a big difference in my book.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
it's a distinction without a difference until i see the emails that elcroata is referring to. my sense is that he's seen something or told something.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I understand.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
You know, there is this one place somewhere in the interwebs
Which is probably the reason Nico was so conscious about not putting any of the communication with Mike in print, I guess. Had I written such bullying e-mails to members, I wouldn´t want the chance of them going public, either…
Careful Brenarlo
i think it's appropriate to air them here...because not everybody knows this other place on the interwebs or would go even if they knew where
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
sorry, i didn't mean you. if somebody shared them and is a first party, they should share them. it seems like an important part of your discussion.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
He's referring to me
And I’m not going to paste here because tca already looks bad enough.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Can't make you, obviously, as they're your emails
but if you have additional evidence of abuse of authority, it would be of great assistance to those posters seeking to resist said abuse if that evidence was made public.
The more violations there are, the worse any given violation looks, as it can’t be dismissed as an isolated incident.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It happened.
If a certain someone disputes that it happened I’ll prove it, but for this purpose an undisputed statement that it happened is enough.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
hmm...
When Blez sold out AN to venture capitalists for money, it started an ONGOING POLARIZING problem that began to split the membership of the A’s blogging community, which has been compounded by the inconsistent management and often thoughtless MOCKING of members by his successor as chief administrator, whom has a penchant for banning members outside the guidelines of his own rules whenever he senses too much DISRESPECT is coming his way.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
Have I mentioned how much I approve of money?
I’m strongly pro-money.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The CGV system is not farcical.
Nico is the chief administrator. In his capacity as chief administrator, he chooses to employ a quasi-democratic system that frequently defers to the community and offers up a set of rules that are followed most of the time. He does this because he feels that, in spite of the awkwardness and difficulty of it, it creates a better blog.
In the current situation, mistakes have been made with many unfortunate consequences, and the system has been put to a hard test, but the basic concept is still sound.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
but that is not what was said a week ago.
email, instant reinstatement.
not emial and I will judge whether or not you are worthy
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Dan, please don´t. Not you of all people
I have no idea why you are doing this or what information you are basing your response on. But you are factually wrong and your voice carries a lot of weight around here.
Nico emailed Mike in an attempt to talk about what he originally wanted to talk about. After hearing Mike’s side, Nico suggested that this would possibly be better done over the phone or in person…
(emphasis mine)
That´s just not true. Nico opened the e-mail communication with his demand that Mike comes to his place or, if that is not possible, calls him. That was the very first and the only thing Nico wrote in that e-mail. He never showed any willingness to discuss it via e-mail, which is in contrary to numerous statements he has made on this site.
I say that he demanded it and I stay by this with my conscience pure as snow, as suggesting that something would possibly be better is when I tell my wife that buying green napkins might be better than the yellow ones. If by that I really mean I have changed the lock and if you don´t buy the green napkins you will not be allowed to enter our apartment anymore, than I´m not really suggesting anything anymore, now am I?
I will not even get into the part of how telling our kids that mommy is not at home because she “declined to engage in a dialogue”, “had the ball in her court” or “decided so as it was her call to make” would sound.
I don´t understand how you can feel the way the spirit of your comment indicates. That I can live with. It´s the twisting of the facts by someone like you (and with all my heart I hope it was unintentional) that I can´t.
Careful Brenarlo
IGNORE THE YELLOW NAPKINS!
NOTICE GREEN! NOTICE GREEN!
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 31, 2011 7:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I've read the correspondence, too.
I would not characterize it as a “demand”.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I've read the correspondence too.
And I would characterize it as a demand.
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 31, 2011 10:52 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You can demand without using the word "demand"
You can decline without using the word “decline”.
People who like to have a lot of leeway to later freely interpret their actions will use neither of these keywords, yet convey exactly that significance.
People who have no such plans will just say what they mean.
Careful Brenarlo
I really don't want to know the particulars, ec, so please don't take me wrong.
I don’t like any of this issue, and find it extremely distasteful. I think I understand that the issue for you is one of rule application, and future clarity. I agree with you in this. I do, however, find it interesting that one can demand, without demanding, yet others can’t bully because they haven’t crossed the CGs. There IS bullying on this site, and it needs to be addressed. I hope that Nico & the mods, with the help and input of the community members, especially those like yourself( who are such an integral part of the community), can fix this soon. I really like the concept of this site, and don’t want to see it fall apart.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
by Tutu-late on Jan 1, 2012 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
"and he has declined it"
cf
“I should not discuss it”
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
I hope you have a happy New Years, my friend.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
Thank you! You too.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
If only this sensibility was present a few days ago
As for what you feel was appropriate even your most ardent supporters would agree that your sense of what is or is not appropriate to say on AN is… prone to misjudgment.
You said mikev would be unbanned once he e-mailed you. You’ve made contact, he’s still banned.
Obviously what you really meant to say was that once you had a talking to to mikev and straightened him out then you’d allow him to return. See, you say one thing and then almost purposely it seems do something else. This is why I don’t think you’re to be trusted.
You thought mikev was picking on. You banned him to get his attention; you used your position to get back at another poster. That is the very definition of an abuse of power. You finally crossed the line that I know you’ve toed before. I’m not mad at you or disappointed that you’ve done this… this is what I ultimately expected from you. And I expect it to happen again.
Iglew said AN was striving to become something other than another sports blog. That dream, however idealistic or impractical it was to begin with, lies dormant while you’re in charge. Maybe it’s time to acknowledge that that dream can never be anything more than a dream.
A community cannot flourish under a tyrant and that is what you became when you banned mikev. Not because he was an innocent lamb that you led to slaughter… he was being an ass. But because you placed your personal agenda ahead of AN. You banned mikev in the middle of maybe the biggest Oakland A’s news cycle of the offseason. You made AN about you.
And that was never the purpose of your position.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 30, 2011 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 15 recs
Shifting explanations: classic indicator that those explanations are pretext and the underlying explanation is unsavory
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
my only point is that you started to talk but didn't finish. if you don't want to finish, don't start. thanks for the comments nico.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I've been on AN for about 4 years now...
and I’ve always thought of Nico as a rational, well-informed, witty fan with a good sense of humor. I think he, blez, prime (and anyone else I’m forgetting) do a fantastic job with this site and make it a respectable blog, while other SB sites (golden state of mind and ninersnation, in particular) basically seem like a bunch of monkeys who broke into an internet cafe somewhere. Im sure he has his reasons and would probably like to share his side of the story at some point.
P.S.- nico made me write this or face IMMEDIATE PERMABANNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rage
Thanks, elBONESAW
P.S. Buuuuaaaaahaha
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wow. I just read this whole damn thing. Again.
My take:
Yes, mikev can be an a-hole, but is valuable to AN.
Yes, Nico got his feelings hurt (or something), but is valuable to AN.
AN will survive.
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was an idiot.
here is where I disagree
I don’t think mikev can be an asshole.
I think he has strong opinions that he voices strongly and with humor.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good night, AN!
{logs off…ok fine, passes out}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
After reading through a 4th time
I stand by my initial take.
I’ve loved this site from my first lurking, but this is extremely uncomfortable. I don’t post much, I’m usually wrong, people point out my idiocy along with a tightly wound jab in jest, i take my shot, learn and grow. I take it in stride because I’ve seen everyone take their shots (low to the person who denies the value of Cust). This is a great fanbase that wants to encourage each other to be the most knowledgeable and it forces you to take greater care in your comments because there’s always someone ready to call you on your post. This site has been amazing for a fan base being pushed to the limits over the past few owners and the only glue holding us together (and venting together) has been this site.
But this is the ugly side of the internet message boards. I’m very uncomfortable with the fealty Nico is asking for from a community member. It’s great operating in the ether and jiving with a board. Many of you meet outside of the board at ST and games to tailgate and that’s awesome, but I’m just a fan who’s primary relationship is with the team. It’s fun to see the regulars in the comment sections and I respect everyone, but that doesn’t make us neighbors. I’m not about to ask you to babysit my kids, or pick me up from the bar when i’m drunk. I’m here to get your thoughts and provide my own about the Oakland A’s.
But this banning has pulled us out of that paradigm. Posters are beholdent to the feelings of the TCA & mods, not over gratuitous disruptions of the board, but for comments which seem, based upon my years here, to fall well within the posting norms?
I’ve only been here a couple years, but i’m not one for intimate contact with folks i don’t know. If I was in mike’s position, i would have preferred taking the strike, accepted it as a check that i needed to step back from that line (whether mike’s comment warranted it or not is irrelevant) and moved on. The message (strike) received and i can get back to the A’s, cut back on the snide remarks and enjoy the forum I follow. A mild punishment, a tap on the shoulder to tell you that, “hey, maybe you’ve had enough to drink tonight”. boom, story over, walk home, done.
Instead, mike is ambushed with an intervention. An intervention by people he doesn’t even know.
That’s not cool. Now mike has to have a “come to Jesus” moment, say he’s sorry to Nico face-to-face, then he’ll be allowed to be an OAKLAND ATHLETICS fan again?
I thought this site was for fans.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
by ru155 on Dec 30, 2011 11:12 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Who is saying he needs to say he's sorry?
I don’t want to speak for Nico, which is why I stay away from things like this on AN these days, but I do believe that the original communication was to just talk about the overall tenor of things on the site and MikeV’s ongoing contribution to that. It would’ve been by email initially had Mike sent the email requested. But Mike ignored it. For some time. Then he was banned and asked again to contact Nico to discuss. He ignored again.
Nico reached out to him (only after Mike gave express permission to contact him via email per our privacy policy) and is asking for an in person meeting or phone call (in person since Nico and Mike have met several times in person) to discuss things like adults and hopefully move beyond this. He’s been told no. Nico isn’t asking for someone to beg or say sorry. He’s looking for an explanation and discussion of the vision of AN and what Nico wants AN to ultimately be. He wants to express that to Mike over the phone or in person so Mike understands it as a long-term valued member of the community. Mike says he doesn’t want to discuss. There is not a vindictiveness to this, there is only the desire to make this community a better one.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 31, 2011 12:16 AM PST up reply actions
Once again, the issue is not why the administrator wanted to speak to the user. The issue
is that your own stated policies do not appear to have been followed other than in some very far-fetched sense. Why did you bother to create the CGV/Strike system and create a bunch of work for moderators who do it for free, when what you really meant was that those things only applied in cases when the administrator did not get his/her feelings hurt?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:25 AM PST up reply actions
These aren't my policies
SB Nation only has a few overarching policies for our communities such as no racism, no sexism, etc. Other than that Nico runs this community as we have 300 plus people who run our other communities. Our main front page editors are allowed to moderate their communities as they see fit which is why you see such diversity in the way communities are run on the SB Nation platform.
Nico decided to bring in a committee to implement and moderate the rules he created for this site. He has strived for more democratization of AN than almost all SB Nation communities. But he, and baseballgirl as well, are allowed to interpret and implement them as they see fit. I’ve seen the warning Mike was issued. We did what we could on the back end of the system to tested to make sure that Mike had, indeed, seen it prior to the banning.
At the same time, it’s up to Nico how to interpret and implement his rules. I just gave my opinion on how Nico implemented those rules. I still think given all I know about the warning system and the message Mike received, Nico acted both fairly and justly. But that’s Nico’s call to make ultimately since that’s what we pay him to do.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 31, 2011 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So the administrator is the one who is not following
his own policies, not you.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Acting fairly and justly
Just a question. Does deleting posts critical of one´s behavior also qualify as “fairly and justly”?
I mean, it is covered by the fine print in CG, too, so I guess that it´s fine with you, too?
Careful Brenarlo
I'm actually OK with Tyler Bleszinski not wishing to micro-manage each
site administrator’s every decision. Giving managers autonomy within their fief, accompanied by a show of public support is a valid way to oversee managers. In his place, I’d be concerned with these events, and he may be. He may not wish to play his hand just yet.
Remember, Bob Geren got public support from Wolff earlier this year too.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
I don´t disagree
However, I am a customer who feels wronged by the business. The responsible person refuses to address the issue. I am asking a superior who is fully supporting his employee if this is a pattern a behavior that his business endorses.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
you’re kind of compounding the different moments, and the reasoning of each, into the present one. you’re retroactively using what you now understand on each of the moments in this history and that’s not the way to go about it. if you break it down, moment by moment, you’ll see that nico’s intention may not have originally been to get a “sorry” from mike but it definitely was to get mike to say something retractive and/or capitulatish; otherwise the single message, nico-to-mike, would have sufficed: mike, you fucked up in my view, strike one. however, nico’s get-in-touch-with-me carried more than a strike call. it was a strike that nico wanted mike to capitulate to. that is strange. why would a moderator acting under normal circumstances want the person to get back to them if not to imply some kind of: you need to tell me sorry or acknowledge shame or promise never to do it again. this was beyond the bounds of what a normal first strike message should do. all one of those needs to do is communicate one way that the authority figure claims the other person is in trouble. IF, and only if, the other person disagrees, should there be any back-n-forth. mike did not mess up by not getting back. was it not the friendliest way to handle it? perhaps. but he was under no requirement to do so other than in nico’s mind. especially if you consider mike’s POV, which might have been: i did not break any rule; on AN people call other people’s bullshit out all the time; i called out some bullshit in the same manner i always do—sarcastically and in all-caps: if that’s a strike fine, now i know where i stand.
summation of first moment: that was that. nico got to say strike one. mike saw the message. everybody gets to move on.
but here comes moment two. nico pulled rank, apparently deservedly so, by the fine print in the CG, and banned mike. mike gets hella pissed and calls “abuse of power,” which, you know, if it wasn’t abuse of power, it was at least highly subjective use thereof. if anybody else on AN had been made fun of, even repeatedly and flaggedly, that person would have gotten a strike and then things move on. in this particular and singular instance, the strike is doubled without a second violation. at this moment mike loses all interest in continuing his participation here. his refusal to contact nico isn’t because he doesn’t want to talk to nico. it’s because there is no point in talking to him since and because mike has found a place that’s better suited for him.
moment 3, the community wonders WTF. we have no idea what’s going on. nobody will tell us, so we do the best investigating we can using the tools and clues we have. we break into a gio thread to do so. nico, as know only to himself at the moment because he doesn’t say so and because he acts otherwisely, “refuses” to comment. unfortunately, he does make some of his funny remarks and feeds information tangential, parallel, and, who can really tell since he’s the only one who knows the fuller story, seemingly to the point, we have to guess, of why mike was banned: something about a public/private email being posted. a bigass red herring, really. then nico says he refuses to comment, after he made a bunch of comments that, hey, because we have no idea how to sort the relevant from the circumstantial, all seems relevant to us. the community begins to splinter.
this carries an undertow of weirdness until elcro goes and makes it explicit with moment 4 and 4.1, this post we’re reading now. or, rather, with the first version of it which, at my last reading of the messages here, remains unexplained as to how it disappeared. the community continues to shatter. now with serious doubts about how the truth of it is being handled. people are calling for his head.
moment 5, today. nico reappears, head attached, and with a calm attitude and explanation about how he wants to talk to mike. too late for that, as i’ve already mentioned. mike is long gone. he has no more interest in that conversation than gio would have in whether japan’s going to have nice weather on opening day.
i know i’m ranting and i know i’m mentioning nico over and over. my point is your point. sometimes there is a pattern of behavior that’s disruptive to the community. one such pattern is about abrasive comments, especially if repeatedly pointed at one person. another such pattern has to do with duplicity. saying one thing and pretending to mean another. saying “here i am” and then acting like you’re dumb for looking for me there. using certain rules most of the time to curb aggression, but benefiting from other rules when the aggression hits closer to home. (seriously, if mikes strike comment had been directed at anybody else, would he have received the same summary treatment?) i don’t know if both patterns are divisive. i do think that if you’re the head of something, yes, you’re going to be in the scope and inevitably catch flak. from everybody. even me.
and why do i care about me? because i’m hurt. this sucks. what i know of this community is crushed. irrevocably split. it seems i’m to either lose one friend or lose many. this is not an choice i want to make.
i’m sorry nico if this sounds like a personal attack. i recognize you’re humanity and value. and your hard work. and the difficulty of this position. but i do not recognize that you did the right thing every step of the way. i think you somewhat blew it and i guess i’m writing it down like this so that you reflect. and i am not of paul’s mind, that there is something wrong with people who are wrong. actually, i think the people who should feel stupid are the ones who need to be right all the time, as i’ve intimated before.
i am now on sabbatical. watch it fucking stick.
by AV on Dec 31, 2011 3:00 AM PST up reply actions 8 recs
Just for the record,
my position is not that “there is something wrong with being wrong,” it’s that “there is something human about feeling like there’s something wrong with you if you’re wrong.” And that that human feeling can provoke disagreements regardless of the tact employed by the person doing the refuting. (Obviously tactlessness can provoke plenty of disagreements too.)
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Blez,
this is an internet forum and, in my view, has natural limits. We are posters to a website and it should be handled within the website. Nico has ample means for communicating his grievances with mike through private message and email which are suitable avenues within the framework of the internet.
Nico’s face-to-face begets a potentially heated exchange.
“discuss this like adults” may be done through email, and that’s as far as I would expect contact from this site. We are posters. There is an implicit comfort level we have agreed to by contributing via written statements.
If mike declines the face-to-face, why does Nico elect not to respect mike’s wishes and communicate through email, which mike has already agreed to?
I know I would far prefer an email exchange. It allows me to gather my thoughts and deliberate upon each point. For me a phone call/face-to-face is a pressure move.
Why have it face to face unless you are there to debate and intimidate? You say it yourself that Nico wants mike to give him “An explanation” for his posts. I can only read that as Nico is upset with mike’s pointed post and expects mike to explain his actions. When someone is asked to explain their actions, it’s because they didn’t follow the rules/screwed up, so the boss has them in to make sure they know they messed up.
Finally, Nico wants to press into mike “the vision of AN and what Nico wants AN to ultimately be.” Which clearly mike has violated, or else Nico wouldn’t feel it necessary to sit down with mike face-to-face, thus Nico must have some latent desire for an apology for mike’s perceived corruption of Nico’s vision of AN.
Nico is judge and jury. Nico and mike know that Nico holds access in the balance, and if mike doesn’t meet Nico’s expectations for the conversation, mike will remain banned. It’s in mike’s interest to appease Nico if he values this community highly enough, whether he feels he is personally being wronged or not.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
by ru155 on Dec 31, 2011 7:37 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention e-mail is a far-more preferred
forum for professional communication, because there is little idle chatter, emotions are seldom conveyed unless that’s a desired outcome, assuming proofing takes place ONLY what is written is what is meant to be said, there are very few instances of “I didn’t mean it like that,” and in short, you neither fall in love nor have a “f.u.” moment over e-mail, while you OFTEN have those moments in f2f or phone coms.
The point made about “gathering thoughts” is PRECISELY why e-mail if FAR to be preferred, and suggesting com now has to be in phone or in person is not only disengenuous, but in the end ineffective as well.
And to suggest to thinking individuals the motivations are other than arbitrarily disciplinary is cross the sabermetric line of logic: statistically, people who behave thusly are very reminiscent of spin doctors.
by BoyHowdee on Dec 31, 2011 7:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree.
In my line of work, where I deal with the customer, it is always better to communicate by the phone because there is less ambiguity in the context of both words and intonations. If there is a point that needs clarification, you can ask immediately and not have to wait for a back-and-forth. And finally, what may make sense to you may actually be interpreted in a different way by someone else. Especially when someone else is looking for reasons to misinterpret or prove a point. Remember that Reading Rainbow where they played a video of an alligator crawling along the grass? When they played scary music, it looked menacing. When they played silly music, it was less threatening.
It has also been my experience that customers who are quick to berate you and essentially insult you via email are usually your friend over the phone, even in the same day.
My point is that phone conversations are better than email.
From my view
what you’re referring to is a different environment.
While people make the case of this being a business and we are the customers, there is nothing directly being sold to one side or the other. We operate in the ether and this is a sounding board for personal opinion and information about a sports franchise.
I work with contractors, a business environment where you are all working towards the same goal of making money. It behooves you to find a way to make things work, and protect your reputation and professional career. Many have personal qualms with those they work with, but they keep it to themselves because it is not relevant to the business and bringing these issues up publicly will only further the difficulty of working with said person. Also there are steep penalties for unprofessional behavior: lawsuits for harrasment, loss of customers, get fired, etc.
There are different expectations when I’m on a conference call with consultants. It’s very dry and focused on the task and disagreements are dealt with very politely because cursing or belittling another is considered in bad form and you develop a reputation as “difficult to work with”.
AN is the bar scene meeting up with friends after work. On AN we can give our true thoughts, and while a common respect for all is expected, it’s by no means a corporate board meeting with minutes being taken. The AN board features a high level of sarcasm because this is a casual forum. We are not posting with the intent of winning favor.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
by ru155 on Jan 5, 2012 7:49 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
why didn't Nico email Mike?
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
SBN's established policy, for reasons unclear to me,
is that the blog administrator should use the warning function and not private email. Nico was following that policy. When Blez stepped in and encouraged Nico to email instead, then he did.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
this has to be bullshit right?
Nico reached out to him (only after Mike gave express permission to contact him via email per our privacy policy) a
you require email.
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
by Future Ed on Dec 31, 2011 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
"Mike says he doesn’t want to discuss"
Please, everybody – repeating a statement does not make it true. Mike was willing to discuss.
At least say “Mike and Nico couldn´t agree on the medium for the discussion, and as a result Mike remains banned”.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wait a sec...
We’re at the point now where the two parties involved don’t want to speak via the same medium? Yeesh… I’m sorry gang but this is ridiculous. This is two guys trying to have a discussion about some issues on an internet site, not a tense North/South Korea border discussion. Just grow up and have the conversation.
by RickeySteals on Dec 31, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
If it was a situation in which it was a conversation among equals, I would agree.
However, Mike doesn’t run a web site that Nico’s on and may or may not want to be a part of.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
but Mike doesn't run a website that Nico may or may not want to be a part of.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
well, the catalyst for this yes
but be clear, this is not about mike and nico.
Mike is not driving this discussion
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Sounds like he's being stubborn and everyone is blaming Nico for that.
Why isn’t anyone emailing mikev and telling him to STFU and call Nico?
KOOOOUUUUUZ!
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
BOOBIES
MOUNTAIN DEW IS A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT
by doctorK on Dec 31, 2011 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Geren hates us!
"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D
A few more thoughts, now that I've heard from Nico and Blez
The rules on the site make it clear that AN is a “benevolent dictatorship,” ruled in the end by the Blez and his designee, Nico. They can pretty much do what they want, and that’s always been true.
The problem, and what bothers people who aren’t normally bothered by such things, is that the issue revolves around a personal attack, or perhaps a series of them, that are covered by the Community Guidelines. So I think there was an assumption, and perhaps an unrealistic one, that such attacks – even those aimed at Nico – would fall under the system that was established years ago – strikes, et cetera. Instead, Nico appears to have bypassed the system because he was fed up with mikev for some combination of reasons. And mikev will stay banned until he complies with Nico’s request.
By definition, banning someone because they insulted you is a conflict of interest. You’re the wronged party. If I was in Nico’s shoes, I wouldn’t want to ban a long-time contributor without a bunch of moderators making the call – especially as the storm that has followed was very predictable.
I’m uncomfortable with the “respect my authority” vibe coming from Nico and Blez, but that’s probably just me. There seems to be plenty of stubbornness to go around. I hope cooler heads prevail eventually.
by bear88 on Dec 31, 2011 1:17 AM PST reply actions 13 recs
This is a good summary
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 1:37 AM PST up reply actions
The issues that prompted me to contact mikev initially
were not limited to comments made at my expense. He was contacted due to an ongoing pattern of comments that I felt were bad for the site, some having absolutely nothing to do with me. He was “suspended from commenting until he contacted me” specifically because he ignored an earlier contact saying he needed to email me. Agree or disagree, those are the facts.
I’m seeing a lot of references to my “hurt feelings”. Repeated “public TCA-bashing” can be bad for a community, not just bad for an individual. And that wasn’t the only issue anyway.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Funny how nobody flagged Mike on any of these comments that were bad for AN
You´d think with thousands of users around here, someone else would have shared your sensibility for the greater good of the community and objected to at least one of them.
Yet, since August, the only flagged comment Mike made was … the one about you.
And it was flagged by… you.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 8 recs
This is very telling
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
this is my point
the sum of the posts is bad or the trend is bad but no individual post was flagged. worrisome.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Well, a person can bully without crossing the line.
That doesn’t mean there wasn’t bulling going on. Nor does it mean it didn’t offend. Most here don’t tend to flag comments made against themselves, for fear to look thin-skinned.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
mikev is a special case. he posts a lot. he's a known entity. for none of his posts to flagged and then this to happen? shaking my head
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
And this justifies bullying?
All you have to be is well-known? a special case? Some of the people that have been bullied here, just left. I, for one, wouldn’t want any administrator to allow that condition to continue without addressing it. Its like workplace harassment. As a supervisor, if I notice the harassment and don’t address it, whether I am informed of it or not, whether someone complains or not, I am responsible for correcting the behavior. PERIOD.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
it doesn't. what it justifies is that mikev's behavior was fine. suddenly nico changed his mind. that worries me and it worries others.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Ask Nico to share some of the e-mails he sent to users on this site
If you want to know what bullying is.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
You're saying MikeV was bullying the administrator?
Interesting
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
I never said that.
This is another case in this whole debacle, of words being put into another’s comment. I was referring to Nico’s comment, that he was concerned with mikev’s behavior towards many on this site.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
It's pretty obvious that the administrator was most concerned about
the poster’s behavior towards the administrator, specifically not contacting him when directed to do so.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 5:59 PM PST up reply actions
It's too bad Nico thought more of mikev to handle this in a special way.
He should have just treated him like he would a newbie and used a strike.
Also, quantity vs quality. Just because one individual comment wasn’t enough to warrant a strike doesn’t mean that ten of them will not.
Also x2, mikev is well liked here. It’s possible someone didn’t flag him because they don’t want to hurt their friends.
How do we know that most here don't flag comments made against themselves?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Since these supposed comments are all made on a public website,
it should be a routine matter to produce them.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
To be fair, I have yet to see any of the thousands of users ever respond by telling someone to "back off"
Not through flagging, but rather through self governing. A simple, “Hey, X, that was uncalled for. Y is only here to discuss the A’s.” Does this mean that everyone here approves of all the comments on AN? People want democracy, yet I don’t see a whole lot of self governing for the greater good of the site.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
I see it. I've seen iglew and danmerqury intercede in heated exchanges and
ask that things cool down where they thought the tone was shedding more heat than light.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Joe Como and myself the other day
Started of rocky, I was snarky, he was bitter, we both realized it, “self-governed”, apologized and adjusted in the thread and moved on.
Had one of us had administrative privileges, the other one might be buying the plane ticket now or be banned, according to the accepted behavior for the TCA
Careful Brenarlo
Yeah I am big on apologizing on the spot.
I’ve misread things. We all have. Or not understood tone/or context.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
This is true.
You two handled it very well. I am not referring to the two individuals policing themselves to work out their differences. I am also not talking about reactions to those who are new to the site. In the exchange you presented, how many others told you that your snarkiness was uncalled for? As I remember it, most eluded that you were entitled to do so, given your expertise in the field of baseball analysis.
I wish mikev and Nico had been able to come to the same understanding as you and Joe did. It does take TWO people to say “I’m sorry” for that to work.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
It actually doesn't take two people.
It really only takes one. Either one, in this case.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Well, it does when one says I want to talk to you about this, and the other tells him to jump in a lake.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
No. Had either one of you
had administrative privileges, you would have worked it out as you did.
What made your situation different was that you two, after an initial misstep, found it in yourselves to step back and work things out. Nico and Mike, so far, have not.
The difference here is the individuals, no the tools and rules and positions of authority.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
I would say I'm referring to the more "common" ANers.
I would expect certain people to step in.
"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."-anonymous
"i guess i just like beer"-stm
There is a lot of self-governing on AN.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again that self-governing is the most important of AN’s regulatory tools. The Community Guidelines and the chief administrator’s ultimate authority are other tools which are sometimes helpful.
The current incident is one in which all three tools failed, but I believe the failure was due to poor implementation, not a flaw in the system. If and when this situation is resolved, I hope that we’ll all learn from it and do better next time.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 31, 2011 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Repeated "puublic TCA-bashing" CAN be bad for a community, true.
But at this point even you, Nico, (and so, too, Blez) must surely realize, even if you are too proud, stubborn or whatever to publicly admit it-
the net result of your actions have by now been far more damaging to the community than whatever damage you were concerned that mikev was creating. Take a good look at the cast of characters that have been most vocally upset with the arbitrariness of your approach to the problem on this thread, and with the notable exception of most of the mods they form the very core of the community: elcroata, grover, WaddellCanseco, PaulThomas, Kyli, FutureEd, Gaijin_Suketto, etc. If they all should choose to stop participating here because of this clusterfluck, AN would be immeasurably less valuable to a great many more of us who don’t participate nearly as much, but who do contribute site hits and who read, value and appreciate the above contributors every bit as much as we read and value the front page writers, mods and yourself.
Whether or not that matters to you, it does affect the site, and possibly even the site’s viability going forward, at least in the short-to-middle term. Sure, in the long run a bunch of new and valuable contributors might arrive to take their place. Or not. Certainly in the absence of the above contributors there will temporarily be many many fewer site hits…
I for one, no matter whether I agree with your justifications (and I really don’t have anywhere near as much issue with them as the majority of those I named above) will be mighty annoyed if you, by sticking to your POV, by rationalizing that this is all mikev’s fault, drive these folks away.
I hope you will realize the right course going forward. My two drachmas worth would be: admit you didn’t intend to set the barn on fire, and, now that it has burned down, pledge not to play with matches any more. Which is to say, pledge to not use your extra-judicial mandate unless you first get feedback from your mods that it’s the preferred course of action…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
this site has already lost many valuable posters entirely and we've lost big market share of some posters to other sites. your concerns are valid.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I don't have a long history here, so I don't know who left before I arrived
A several years ago, even the drumbeat actually had useful discourse, and then it just petered out and all the cooler heads just went away, and it took me a year or two to realize they went to AN, which I hadn’t even known might exist. Now, obviously, nsj, dfa and many others are gone/banned from here, and I see references to other better sites, but they are obscured on here so as to deter trolls. However, if you’d care to email me, I’d like to check them out…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
thank you, kind sir
I was just too dummm to parse it out…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
Which, in and of itself might mean I'm exactly the kind of guy you're trying to weed out...
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think so.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
What I like about this comment is that is asks me to do something I am totally on board doing, publicly,
and that is to say, and I am saying: I didn’t intend to set the barn on fire, and pledge not to play with matches any more. Which is to say, not use my extra-judicial mandate unless I first get feedback from my mods that it’s the preferred course of action.
Seems like making and honoring that pledge will be best for everyone in 2012 and beyond. Thanks for facilitating.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 31, 2011 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Cool, then let's reinstate mikev and move forward with things made better for the future
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 31, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
No problema, Nico
It looks as though you have done exactly what I asked. And that’s great.
It also looks as though several other folks will be satisfied if you do just one teensy thing more: reinstate mikev. No more.
I didn’t demand that, and they didn’t demand that you promise to stay ‘judicial’ in the future.
To me, promising to not use extra-judicial processes in the future is by far the bigger outcome.
But the community would really like it if you’d reinstate mikev, too! I can hope…
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Sigh...
… I love the smell of meta in the morning …
This community trades opinions… lots of them. We also form opinions, sometimes without all of the facts. We also have a tendency to ascribe ulterior motives to people’s actions, even if that means refusing to take what someone says at face value.
We haven’t heard Mike’s side of the story (or at least, I haven’t) but… if I take what Nico has said at face value, it seems as though he cut off Mike’s posting privileges not specifically for one or more personal attacks but rather because Mike refused to respond when Nico reached out to Mike to discuss his behavior on the site. I have no problem with Nico reaching out to a member of the community to discuss how his/her behavior is affecting the community at large, in fact, that is exactly what I would expect someone in a leadership position to do! One thing that is lost in all of this is that Nico tried to address all of this out of band, without it becoming a “thing” for the larger site. He wasn’t the one who dragged this into the public.
Quite frankly, the angst of some members of the community seems a bit misplaced. I’d be worried if Nico had just unilaterally banned mikev without any reason, but that isn’t what happened. I’d also be worried if Nico’s reason was something frivolous but in this case, what else could he do? As the admin for the site, he reached out to a member to discuss that members participation in the site. That member refused to engage in a dialog. He could’ve let it slide but that seems like a bad approach when dealing with someone so active.
The leadership of this site has an extremely difficult job, one that hasn’t gotten any easier as the A’s have gotten worse and worse on the field. I’m thankful that they do what they can and I think we all need to give them a bit more latitude than we do when this sort of stuff comes up. There are no easy answers and there is no book on how to handle communities like AN. They do the best they can, and I think in this case that is what Nico did.
by RickeySteals on Dec 31, 2011 2:20 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
You're saying banning someone for saying "notice me" isn't frivolous?
What could be more frivolous?
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 2:25 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
That's not what he did...
He banned someone who refused to respond after he, acting as the site admin said to that person – hey, we need to talk about how your participating on the site. Again, I’m just taking what Nico said at face value, not ascribing some ulterior motive…
by RickeySteals on Dec 31, 2011 8:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Sounds like we have a different definition of frivolity
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
Why would you take what Nico says at face value at this point?
As I said above, the explanations for what’s going on keep shifting. The action taken was wildly disproportionate to the apparent “precipitating factor.” The cynical explanation is perfectly plausible, probably more so than the surface explanation.
These are pretty much hallmark signs of arbitrary action.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He's acknowledged that it was an arbitrary action
“Repeatedly making fun of a chief administrator, and repeatedly making other problematic comments to others, over a period of time, and then ignoring an administrator’s direct request for contact,”
Why should we not take that explanation at face value? The explanation is arguably more mockable than the action itself.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Er, right, I forgot about that one
There have been so many different explanations tossed around, it’s hard to keep them straight without a spreadsheet.
That’s pretty much a straight admission that this is about a power thing.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Are they shifting, or are you just reading what you want to,
and using your debate skills in an attempt to tear things apart?
by LoneStranger on Jan 3, 2012 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, it would be frivolous
if the ‘notice me’ was entirely the reason for the banning. We don’t know, but I’m guessing it’s the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back.
There’s a lot of ugliness on this thread. Nico is paid to run this site and not act as a punching bag for people who think the paid help should take any amount of abuse, sarcasm or constant needling. Everyone has a breaking point and I’m giving Nico the benefit of the doubt that he reached his.
That said, he probably should have worked out any personal issues with Mike before it reached this stage. Possibly he has. The point is that we don’t know the full history and for that reason the piling on here has gotten a little excessive and entirely too personal, to the point where Nico is now accused of being a homophobe and excusing pedophilia. The perspective is getting lost and now it’s just getting ridiculous.
by coffee roaster on Dec 31, 2011 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, having helped adolescents come out of the closet,
and having had to report child abuse many times, I’d prefer not to have those labels thrown around just because people are mad. I do need to exercise better judgment about what humor to throw out there, though, no question about that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I like your humor, and am not put off in the least by it.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks, but many in the community are bothered by my off-color jokes,
and I need to stop making them out of respect for the community as a whole.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's fine. I just wanted you to know that some people enjoy your comments
and sense of humor
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 10:48 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I could agree with the straw camel idea
heck, I think it was used with other examples that have been discussed here where the rules were not followed in the past..
The problem with it is, as mentioned above, there has only been one comment by Mike in the past several months that has been flagged by anyone and that was the “notice me”. From what I have read in here, many people flag many comments a lot, so if Mike hasn’t had one done, it would seem that the community as a whole did not have an issue with how his participation was working.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Dec 31, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of people don't react to things by flagging,
they react by leaving. You can’t measure impact just by flags and bans.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 31, 2011 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That sure as heck is a good point
A lot of people react to changes and things that are unacceptable by leaving. Most are just lost to the world and the next Yahooligan takes their place. But when you start having people who regularly post strong content to the site either quietly exiting, or loudly saying they do not like x y and z and are leaving as a result, I would think it would mean maybe making some changes.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
It sounds to me like you're referring to what's happening now WRT mikev
but it also sounds to me that the dynamic you’re describing might have motivated Nico’s concerns in the first place.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
It feels to me like I'm referring to lots of different things
People respond every day to what they see, do, hear. Hell we’ve been given that as the reasoning behind folks decreasing their time here or leaving for years and it is true to a degree. People get older, get new jobs, have kids, lose interest in a bad team, and any one of a hundred other reasons.
The difference here seems to be that several people have stated in public that this simply doesn’t pass the sniff test. And these aren’t people who show up to make a random go A’s or A’s suck comment. These are people who post frequently, provide good content, and in some cases have even been part of the “leadership” if you will.
Others think it is overblown-adults disagree and that’s fine. But eventually you move enough passionate people away and you do change your product.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
However
Unlike flags, people leaving is not something you can count and directly attribute to someone.
For all we know, the users that did leave might have done so because they were offended by silly jokes or bored by the lack of content.
The only objective evidence of how disruptive Mike´s presence was is the number of objections that were made to it using the well established system to do so, known to everyone.
The number of such objections in the last four months (aside from the “notice me” comment) is z-e-r-o.
It would be interesting to know how many users received at least one flag over that period. I´d bet we are talking about at least dozens. However, their flags were not earned by “disrespecting The Chief Administrator”, so they are not equally important, obviously.
Careful Brenarlo
by elcroata on Dec 31, 2011 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I got a strike on 9/28 but I earned it
It was for calling PL78 something I don’t regret saying in the least.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
PL78 is an interesting case. he shoulda been banned a year before he was. mikev shouldn't have been banned as quickly as he was.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Well he was a terrible poster, but he should have gone through the
CGV/Strike system like everyone else, and may well have.
The determining factor shouldn’t be whether someone thinks you’re a good poster or not.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i believe he did go through the process. i flagged many of his posts.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Yes, PL78 did go through the three strikes process.
A big part of the reason it took so long was that PL78 had a knack for being disruptive without actually violating a CG, so he seemed to misbehave longer than he actually did. He got a ton of flags that were deemed not strikeworthy. But he also had a few that were, and eventually enough of them caught up with him.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
i'm well aware of his strategy. which is why i flagged his posts anyway. i found my own way of being a nuisance to him.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
I'm pretty sure he had a bunch of stuff flagged, whether there were strikes issued or not
And I think there may have been at some point.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
as i recall, you and i had some epic knockdown dragouts with him
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
We are all equal
but some are more equal than others.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
Flagging should be for something outrageous and egregious
That’s probably why most things here aren’t flagged. Everyone has a different perspective on what’s truly offensive and I think most people just tolerate differences, unless something is racist or homophobic or a blatant insult. I think there’s a degree of sexism here that probably drives down the participation of women but I haven’t seen anything particularly flag-worthy, just a general vibe. I’m certainly not going to flag things that have the general approval of the community.
Flagging probably isn’t a great indicator. Most people aren’t that confrontational and aren’t going to invest a ton of energy flagging stuff. The only time I have is when some shiftless noob has arrived and spouted offensive garbage in a game thread. I think I’ve done that once, maybe twice.
If you think we should all start flagging every single post where someone makes a snide comment, gets confrontational or makes a joke that doesn’t meet with someone’s personal standard of approval I promise you that this will become a second job. And it would make this place a never-ending flame war that would drive scores of people away.
by coffee roaster on Dec 31, 2011 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the sexism thing, and if more women were here and vocal it would
be better. I suppose it’s a vicious circle.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of the FLAN (Fabulous Ladies of AN) laid their +1's in at the top of the thread.
Too bad that section of Revolutionary Square got paved over.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I love FLAN
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
definitely better than CUSTARD
Call Unless Severe Termination And Restriction Desired
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
rec'd that by accident
Although I guess I agree about the vicious cycle part. Hard to feel 100% comfortable being vocal on this or any other topic when I’m confronted with pictures of boobs and and sigs about boobs and the usual nonsense. So I go back to my nail polish blogs.
by stormtown on Dec 31, 2011 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
You can unrec it if you want.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
I'm totally into the fashion blog thing, but even when I post pics with my head cut off, trans-phobes flag things.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
I think the AN demographic used to have a higher percentage of women.
The sexism was still here. Apparently our “chick talk” was “disruptive” to “real baseball talk”.
But on the upside, we had an amusing time mocking the misogyny. >:)
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
HEY DAN. [boom] [boom] [boom] CHANNEL 9!
IT’S THE BREAST EXAM!
by LoneStranger on Jan 3, 2012 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
I think there’s a degree of sexism here that probably drives down the participation of women but I haven’t seen anything particularly flag-worthy, just a general vibe.
Oh, there’s been plenty that’s been flag-worthy. [polishes flagging button]
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
"Polishes flagging button"
Now there’s a FKcilliary term waiting to get out, right there.
Everybody's got a little light under the sun.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 31, 2011 5:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You're missing the point
People are not complaining about Nico’s jokes, they’re complaining that his jokes are approved of while other, similar jokes get the user banned as being “disruptive to the community.”
And the only real distinction between those jokes is who’s being targeted.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2011 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
We actually don't know that Nico's jokes are approved of. The fact that he said
that he recognizes the need to tone them down indicates that they’re not approved of. The difference is that the consequences are inconsistent
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps "tolerated" or "not punished" would have been more accurate
That was imprecise, sorry.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Sounds to me like Mike has chosen not to put it out there...
… I’m sure it would find its way in if he wanted it to do so.
by RickeySteals on Dec 31, 2011 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
There are ways
I suspect that if he really felt the need to tell his side of the story then he would find a way. For example, he could write something and ask someone else he knew to post it.
Thank you, so much, RickeySteals, for this comment
Of all the comments I’ve seen, this one probably best captures all the key “what really happened” points, as I experienced them in real time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This about a failure in leadership and responsibility
I’m a wildland fire fighter and on any given day I can be responsible for the care and welfare of anywhere between 4 and 25 people. When we’re on a fire it is my responsibility to keep my people safe, fed and effective. I am a leader.
Here’s the first thing you learn as a leader… the job is supposed to be difficult! You have a responsibility beyond yourself to your community and it doesn’t matter we’re talking an engine crew or a baseball blog, you are responsible for your people. And it’s when things are going bad, when the fire has spotted outside the control lines or your baseball team hasn’t had a winning season in half a decade, that you are expected to step up and be at your best. Those are the times when your leadership is needed the most and you don’t get a pass just because things aren’t going well.
The second thing you learn as a leader is the importance of communication. When you have important information you need to impart on another person it is your responsibility to insure that the information is received and understood. Failure to do so lies at the fault of the sender… not the receiver.
It is obvious that Nico felt he had an important message he needed to get to mikev. What the exact nature of that information seems up for debate but that is relatively unimportant; the key point that everyone agrees on is that Nico needed to get in touch with mikev. That places the burden of responsibility for opening up a dialogue on Nico, not mikev.
This is where things go sideways. Nico attempted to communicate with mikev via a warning system known for being unreliable. Mikev says he never received the notice and we have no way of knowing with absolute certainty if he’s lying or if the message failed to deliver. But Nico feels like he’s done his job.
Let me stop and ask you this, RickeySteals: You feel that Nico’s decision to ban mikev in order to engage him in a dialogue was justified. Would you still feel that way if you somehow knew with absolute certainty that mikev never actually received Nico’s message?
Almost 2 weeks pass between the time Nico sent his message to mikev and when he bans him. During that almost 2 week stretch mikev appears on a number of threads and posts comments, making his presence in the community known. And during that almost 2 week stretch Nico makes no further efforts to communicate with mikev.
Right there is a classic example of a failure in leadership. Nico did not take responsibility to insure that his important information ever made it to mikev. He made one effort to communicate with mikev and when there was no response he banned him.
Leadership is not about asking for or expecting latitude, it’s about taking responsibility. It’s about taking on the burden of others as well as your own. If you can’t handle that workload then you shouldn’t lead. You should step aside and let someone else do what is necessary for the good of the community. You cannot let your pride and ego get in the way of the group.
Tempting though it may be to go off. Trust me, been there, done that and have always been at fault when it’s happened.
Mikev is a known jokester with a penchant for needling folks. He can get under the skin and irritate but he has never crossed the line into CGV territory. (And been called on it, anyways.) When you post as often as Nico does it’s only a matter of time before you say something that is going to come back and bite you in the butt. Again, been there done that. And if you think for one second that when Nico talks about wanting to discuss the tone of mikev’s participation on AN he’s not including the comments mikev made in his direction then you’re naive and this post will have no effect.
Nico wanted to get mikev to tone it down, especially in regards to comments heading in his direction and when mikev didn’t respond to Nico’s ONE request for a chat he banned him.
You talk about taking Nico at face value. OK, let’s do that.
Nico originally said this wasn’t a “real” ban and that mikev would be reinstated as soon as he contacted Nico. They shared e-mails. Mikev is still banned. Why? Because now Nico wants to have either a phone call or a face-to-face meet to discuss things. Go back and look at the thread on the 22nd. Nico let Flashfire run with the story that maybe this was all about mikev’s profile having a bad e-mail address. It was only after being pressed that it came out the issue was more serious then that. Some have speculated that Nico wants an apology from mikev. I don’t believe that for a second. (I know better ‘cause I have super-secret sources who tell me things… things I can’t really share with the rest of AN because then they might not want to talk to me anymore.)
Nico blamed mikev for not responding to his first message.
He blamed mikev for continuing the ban because he did not respond to Nico’s request for an e-mail in a timely fashion. Note that at this time Nico was not willing to send an e-mail of his own.
Nico continues to blame mikev for the ban remaining in effect because he’s unwilling to engage in a more personal form of communication.
In short, Nico blames all the meta that has transpired over the past week on mikev when in fact it is Nico that has instigated this entire mess. It is Nico that has ducked out for a few days while all this dissension has gone down… although I don’t know how much of that was his doing vs. being instructed to stay low by others.
Nico made an ironic comment elsewhere in this thread. He said that not all offensive comments are met with flags. Sometimes the readers’ response is to simply walk away from the site. He is absolutely right about that. Now here we a have leader who failed in his basic responsibility to communicate with one of his members; who has banned said member in what appears to be a response to teasing comments made in his direction. A leader who has changed both the story of what caused the ban and what steps the banned party must take to be reinstated.
I find Nico’s comments and actions in this matter to be offensive. They show a complete lack of understanding in what a leader is. They show a failure to take responsibility of his own actions. And there is not a large enough flag to stake besides this mess.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 31, 2011 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
At the admitted risk of being a straight man (this is sort of important, so I'll risk it)
when you say that you have super-secret sources, is that actually the case, or are you parodying Nico’s tack during the recent discussions about Adrian Beltre?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
And the punchline...
Yes.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 31, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The post has been updated with the latest development
There might be a little emotion in Fact Five, for which I apologize. However, and contrary to a lot that has been written here in the last few hours, it has only honest and complete facts.
I´m personally just feeling numb right now. It is close to New Years eve where I am and I want to preserve some positive energy for the loved ones I will not see after today. It is a near impossible task, seeing what has unfolded in the last days and especially in the last hours.
I hope not to write today again, for I would not write anything nice and for what is left of my family deserves me in a better mood.
And I hope against hope that through some miracle, the next time I do, all of this will disappear, that this will have never been a site run by the fine print. I hope against hope that this was nary a nightmare in which I dreamt of ego-driven administrators sending threatening e-mails to some users, banning others with no explanation, deleting the critical posts written by the third ones, all while being dishonest and misleading about their actions to everybody else.
Careful Brenarlo
Alles, was uns nicht tötet
macht uns nur stärker.
Granted, quoting Nietzsche (and the Wehrmacht’s training mantra) won’t necessarily make me any friends here, but I think the statement holds here – all that doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.
I’m with you on the criticisms of what’s happened here, but I draw perhaps some different conclusions. Nico and mikev have done some regrettable things, and I hope they both regret them. I am concerned that I don’t see much regret from Nico (or Blez), and there’s no evidence of regret from mikev – though of course we can’t know that.
Pride’s a bitch . . . but you don’t have to marry her.
I would like to say that Nico and mikev will back off their pride and help the community reconcile. That may or may not happen. But the rest of us can reconcile and move on, with or without them.
If I thought Nico were going to go on banning people for insufficient reason, I’d be more concerned. And if this were truly the public sphere, I’d be infuriated.
Personally, I’m looking forward to Nico’s quirky humor and good nature returning. I’d like to see mikev back as well.
And I wish you, my friend, and this whole community, a Happy New Year that includes more than 62 A’s wins, agreement on a new stadium, and bad things happening to the Giants owners.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 31, 2011 7:43 AM PST up reply actions
FAIL - comment was directed to elcroata
to eastcoasta’sfan, i’ll say happy new year!
MOUNTAIN DEW IS A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT
I'm gonna use that on my kid who just started spanish immersion
We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley
Wouldn't it be nice it we could edit our comments here :)
NOT A BAN! You can begin to comment again after a simple email and a phone call then you must bring us A SHUBBERY!
Happy New Year EC!
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
So ... Nico finally screwed the pooch?
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 31, 2011 7:48 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
Goat,pony, whatever...
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Dec 31, 2011 8:52 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
.
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Looks like that might've been a cached image
Should’ve been “Bear is driving”
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Are mods actually allowed to request phone calls or in person meetings?
As a member of an online community I value my privacy. It seems weird that mods are allowed to request you to meet with them in person.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:09 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Well sure I suppose the chief administrators could request any number of hoops to jump through, as it is their site to run.
However, I believe the request was made for a phone call or meeting because in this case, Mikev and Nico have actually met before via tailgates etc. and I think Nico felt it would be an easier way to clear the air after this thing got dragged out over the course of two weeks. If it was you or me, it would probably just be email.
NOTICE ME! NOTICE ME!
by Trojanbrand on Dec 31, 2011 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Having two people meet after a heated argument is often a very bad idea
It could lead to a well reasoned compromise OR it could lead to an old fashioned fist fight. Probably best for two well known online adversaries to not meet in person to solve a problem when email or an online chat can solve it just as easily.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Dec 31, 2011 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
.
MOUNTAIN DEW IS A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT
by doctorK on Dec 31, 2011 10:19 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I believe
that the only route off the Highway of Recrimination is to take the exit marked “Forgiveness.”
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 31, 2011 12:09 PM PST reply actions
I am just learning about this
And I have to say: mikev is one of my favorite people on here, I’d really hate to see this ban continue. I would definitely visit less often if personal flaps start to deplete membership.
Nico, please reinstate mikev. He has a lot to offer, And he’s funny. You know that always is the final trump card for me – funny should stay, always.
What I love about this site is all the passion and the intense conversations. I know what can sometimes end up with ruffled feathers, and I know from experience it stinks to be on the end of some internet disagreements, but I think mikev has shown his worth as a strong, active, interesting AN member.
Please, Nico?
by slusser on Dec 31, 2011 1:02 PM PST reply actions 23 recs
and I know I have little right to ask
it’s not like I am a regular contributor. But I do lurk a lot, and I care. I like the happy, cohesive AN community. I don’t want to see it all fractured, though my opinion really amounts to squat.
Lurkers pay the bills every bit as much as contributors do, actually
Advertisers respond to site hits
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Dec 31, 2011 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
Your opinion amounts to much, much more than squat, Susan
NOT A BAN! You can begin to comment again after a simple email and a phone call then you must bring us A SHUBBERY!
by doctorK on Dec 31, 2011 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
your opinion amounts to a lot more than squat
or at least to a really good squat
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 31, 2011 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
I think our meta just hit a new meta milestone.
Also, +1. :D
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."
Wow! Mike has to feel pretty flattered that Susan thinks he's funny.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
well, like I always say
looks aren’t everything ;D
Death seed
blind man's greed
poets starve and children bleed
nothing he's got
he really needs
21st Century schizoid man.
by emperor nobody on Dec 31, 2011 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
It really seems like things are progressing toward a point of no return here
At first I thought a simple apology might be enough, but now Nico has decided to dig his heels in the ground and take a completely unapologetic approach.
“I was right, damn it, and I don’t care what a massive amount of ANers say, I’m not changing anything.”
From what people have said, clearly the ban system has not been used properly on multiple occasions, and this is the most egregious example I’ve seen.
IMO, the most important quality a leader needs to have is accountability – the ability to recognize a mistake, say “my bad,” and make it right. Clearly Nico is more interested in defending an extremely unpopular position, consequences be damned. It is beyond disappointing.
The moderators have spoken out (like BBG) and explained how much unwarranted and unwanted criticism they receive, and even though it’s not fair, they’ve never tried to ban anyone simply for that reason.
This is an internet site, where a degree of privacy is expected – I’m not ever going to call or meet a mod in person just because they didn’t like a joke I made. Expecting mikev to be required to do so just because Nico was butthurt is ridiculous.
When the community has lost faith in its leadership, it’s time for new leadership. The resounding message I have seen on this thread from the community is a vote of no confidence in Nico. If we are simply going to be ignored, what does that say about what AN really is?
Al Davis 1929-2011 Just rest in peace, baby
"Da greatness of Da Rooster" - RLangford
Follow me on Twitter @FernandoRGallo
by darooster on Dec 31, 2011 1:53 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Yep, you can't unring the bell
You can’t shove the genie back inside the bottle. It’s out there in the open now, and that’s where it’s going to stay, apparently. I’ve always liked Nico and Blez, but they’ve made it pretty clear they’re willing to Thelma and Louise this thing and drive AN off into the abyss. Welcome to Meta Hell, population: ALL OF US.
No mikev, no peace
Know mikev, know peace
by Mike Garza on Dec 31, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I wouldn't generalize the community
as having no confidence in Nico. As a lurker I hope that people on both sides of the argument can learn from this and accommodate each other. And just wanted to say that I feel Nico can continue his role as the blog father moving forward
When we played softball, I’d steal second base, feel guilty and go back.
- Woody Allen
by rhymeswithelephant on Dec 31, 2011 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
I think Nico should reinstate Mike V
then I think everyone should drop it. Whether he chooses to come back is obviously up to him. Maybe they can then talk in private after he is reinstated.
It is getting rediculous.
You would think this is a life and death situation.
I see both sides of this. If I was Nico, I would reinstate him and then make it a CGV to keep rehashing this crap. (j/k)
The people concerned here have a better understanding after this week long discussion. This has it’s own thread so people can talk about it for every if they wish but it gets a little monotonous.
by Trainman on Dec 31, 2011 2:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
My position is now basically this
Yes, as Blogfather Nico has been granted the authority to run AN any way he sees fit. That, however, does not mean that every decision he makes is ultimately the right one (duh).
A part of me doesn’t care that mikev may have a certain way about himself that rubs people the wrong way. We all have our own personalities and some people don’t like others. Big deal.
If he doesn’t have strikes, if a bunch of stuff of his isn’t getting flagged, then I don’t see enough of a reason to go after him the way he was – even if the CGs state such a thing is within the realm of the Blogfather’s discretion.
I also don’t care if some people have decided to leave AN silently in the past because of how others write, comment, etc. If they have a problem with someone and either don’t mention it to that person or fail to take it up with the moderators and/or make use of the flagging system, oh well.
Actions have consequences on both sides, yes. If Nico wanted mikev to talk to him about his general attitude, that’s within Nico’s right to request, demand, whatever word anyone wants to use. But, again, without a history or record of flags/strikes, the way it’s handled ends up called into question because it appears to come out of the blue.
If this was such an ongoing problem, why wasn’t something more done about it in the past? Maybe with someone like PL78 – yes, I’m sure he loves being brought up again – it was easy. The guy was what he was and he had a certain reputation most people knew about. There were also flags and, most likely, strikes issued to him. I got one because I called him a name. The system was used properly and I own up to that.
mikev IS more well-liked than a lot of people, it’s true. Does that matter? Probably, yeah. He’s a longstanding member of AN and has brought value and entertainment to the site many times. That’s why the way this has played out comes off as a slap in the face of so many people. Not that any one voice among the masses should carry more weight than the rest, but if even Susan Slusser thinks this should be reversed that ought to say something.
For me, I guess I’d say “Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.” That’s the way this entire thing has ended up for me, regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s not really about that at this point, but about how to fix it.
There are a few things I want:
- I want mikev reinstated, if he even wants to come back at this point. I don’t want there to be any hoops for him to jump through. No capitulation, no phone calls, no face-to-face meetings.
- I want the CGV/strike process adhered to the way it was intended to be, and I want the authority wielded by the Blogfather to be done so with better thought and responsibility when it comes to how a decision might affect AN as a whole. mikev is not a villain and I don’t believe he has been treated properly in the way this has progressed, whether or not he wanted to talk to Nico in the first place. I don’t see any reason he should have had to when a basic message of “Some of your comments and needling should be toned down” or something like that would have sufficed, if that’s really the gripe. There was never any need for it to progress to the point of any sort of ban whatsoever.
- I want AN to stay above the way other blogs around SBN are run. Blez has given each site’s maintainers carte blanche to run each one the way they see fit, but as PaulThomas has seen and mentioned in the past, there are some that are handled in a pretty crappy way. When you have power-tripping maintainers who set their own rules and act like judge, jury and executioner without any form of due process, that can be more of a fast turnoff than any particular conflict between posters or so-called factions within a site.
There’s a darker underbelly of AN’s power structure that’s been exposed during all this. It may have always been there, rarely used and kept in secret until now, but how it’s used from this point forward is going to be a deciding factor in whether some longtime posters stay or go. I respect the people who have to deal with this stuff for a difficult job in trying to keep a place as large as this running smoothly, but it’s time to fix the way this was handled and make sure something like it is dealt with better in the future, with better oversight.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 31, 2011 2:48 PM PST reply actions 11 recs
from the west wing...real power is knowing when to leave a little something on the table. i agree with ff and rec'd
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
This is perfectly worded
There’s no reason for this to have happened in the first place. There’s no reason for this situation to have gotten to the point is has. There’s no need for this to ever happen again. There are standards in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and when those standards are ignored, well, you end up with this. Huge overreach by a mod resulting in a huge mess.
No mikev, no peace
Know mikev, know peace
by Mike Garza on Dec 31, 2011 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i agree with everything ff said and you've said. what bugs me most is that mikev and nico have met many, many times before at AN events and other events. this not just an online blog. people have offline relationships.
this is nutz.
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Excellent
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
Confusing personal and professional roles
It appears to me that Nico acted as Nico “the person” and not “the administrator” He took personal offense to personal criticisms and reacted by using his professional role as site administrator.
This is a common occurrence, it’s totally human. Almost everyone at one point or another has confused their personal selves with their professional ones. And its a very difficult mistake to notice and admit. I’ve been guilty of it many times, still do it too.
If everyone would be reasonable and diplomatic, I think the situation could be easily resolved.
Could Nico apologize for taking professional action to resolve a personal matter?
And could mikev apologize for turning to anger and blackmail instead of diplomacy and communication?
I only lurk here, I don’t have the technical merit to make posts, but it’d be really great if we could go back to spending our energy on analyzing team building and rooting for the A’s rather than these discussions.
Thanks a bunch.
Where did mikev turn to anger and blackmail?
by oblique on Dec 31, 2011 4:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I am watching bad TV
you’d think they would make some kind of contraption you could purchase for three easy payments of 14.99 that would solve this problem
A Kouzmanoff for the rest of us!
by OptimistPrime on Dec 31, 2011 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
at times like this i miss pam5981. where are you pamcakes?
the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust
Me too, and not just at times like this
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 31, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
I stole her hairstyle. I hope she doesn't hate me for it :(
elcroata is cooler than you are.
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 31, 2011 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
New Fanpost Up With A Proposal To Resolve This
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
loving the debate
I think it’s great that people are questioning and taking action over what seems like a tiny issue that could have potentially great effects on the rest of us. If only people cared this much when our fed gov steps on our liberties like the ndaa bill just passed allowing US citizens to be detained indefinitely…
Falcon Punch!
by falconsfury on Jan 3, 2012 1:22 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I enjoy reading mikev's comments as much as the next person, but...
Come on guys (and gals)! This is a web community brought together to discuss baseball, not high school drama. I’m not taking either side, nor is it really anyone’s business. Reinstate him for God’s sake…he’s an A’s fan. Are we going to start discriminating our own kind?
Wade Hines
That being said...
Both parties are to blame for separate reasons. Seriously, this stuff should be the least of our worries though. We’re trying to stay out of the cellar this year!
Wade Hines
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