Chasing the Big Boys
A decade ago, the Moneyball A’s were built by finding undervalued talent. Much of the credit went to the team’s moves with respect to trades and free agency. Of course, the true foundation for those teams was six or seven homegrown kids accounting for 30 WAR each season. They surprised the baseball world and created such a stir that a very talented writer documented their tale in a book. The A’s competed with the Yankees and Red Sox in the playoffs, and gave each of those teams a big scare before succumbing. Other teams eventually caught on to the A’s plan, and ever since Oakland has had to discover new ways to find talent on the cheap.
In the last few years, the Rays have been founded by finding undervalued talent. They’ve done so in the most cost effective market in baseball, the draft. They’ve supplemented their talented prospects with bargain free agents and unappreciated players via trade. Their best pitcher is a former #1 overall pick, and their best position player is a former #3 overall pick; they also have a #2 overall pick in the outfield, a #4 overall pick in the rotation, etc. The Rays surprised the baseball world and created such a stir that a very talented writer documented their tale in a book. They’ve made the playoffs three times in four years while competing in the same division with the Red Sox and Yankees. Other teams have begun to understand the value of players under their control.
There are other similarities of course. Both teams have trouble drawing fans even when they’re good. Both teams want a new stadium and are even willing to pay for some of it.* The comparison I’m currently most interested in though is not about the teams themselves, but rather who they’ll be competing with for playoff berths. The Rays are in the same division as the Yankees and Red Sox, the two big boys in baseball. Two teams that feel entitled to playoff spots and expect championships. The Blue Jays are also in the division, a team with deep pockets that’s on the rise and has been stuck in the shadow of the two giants for awhile. The Orioles suck, but boy can they spend money fruitlessly, and every now and then they put just enough pieces together to make some think, "maybe this year."
*It’s so dumb to me that cities bend over backwards to keep/lure professional sports teams. Every significant study has shown that building sports stadiums/arenas with public funds are bad investments. I know we're in the middle of a chase ourselves, so before this aside runs on for 1,000 words, I’ll get back to my point.
The A’s are chasing the Angels and Rangers, each of whom have made significant financial investments both this offseason and for the past several years. They're not Boston and New York, but they look an awful lot like them from the A's lowly perch. The Angels spent $330 million on one day to reign in Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson, and Arte Moreno has poured money into his team for years, often in really silly ways. The Rangers took Adrian Beltre from the A’s last offseason with an $80 million dollar contract and just spent $52 million more just for the right to negotiate with Yu Darvish. Nolan Ryan and his ownership team have made it very clear that they will make the financial commitment their front office thinks is necessary. Of course, both those teams can spend crazy dollars on free agents and still make money. If the A’s tried that, they’d be so deep in the red you’d think they were following Moses.
Don't sleep on the Mariners either. They're a terrible baseball team, for sure, but they have the pockets to make a splash whenever they need to. Their roster as currently constructed consists of three or four superstars/potential superstars and 50 feet of crap (TM). It seems they've finally come around on the fact that they need to be rebuilding. And I couldn't come up with a better analogy for the Astros, who will of course be joining the AL West in 2013, than the Orioles, who have spent a ton of money to win 72 games per season over the last decade. Which one is Miguel Tejada playing for next year?
The A's are positioning themselves to be ready to contend when they get their new ballpark, which they hope occurs for the 2015 season. Trading Trevor Cahill, exploring the market for Gio Gonzalez, and staying quiet in free agency all suggest that. It's quite a bit different than this time last year, when the A's added Josh Willingham, David DeJesus, Brandon McCarthy, Rich Harden and Hideki Matsui in a five-week stretch, then added two bullpen pieces in January. Last year, I believe the front office looked at the division and saw it as wide-open, causing them to go into "we can win this thing" mode. No team was projected to run away with the division.
Now, I think they know that 88 wins isn't going to be winning the AL West any time soon, and if they're going to contend, there may need to be some ugly times while acquiring a set of talent that will be ready to contribute at the same time. Giambi-Tejada-Chavez-Hudson-Mulder-Zito aren't walking through that door, but that needs to be the mentality. And if it needs to get ugly before we get there, so be it. I'm all for it, because there's nothing worse than watching your team win 79 or 84 games every year. Ask a Blue Jays fan.
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It is what it is.
We are David while our division rivals are Goliath. Still, I will keep the faith and believe that my A’s will get to the promise land. I guess that is the true definition of faith.
Fuck Texas, Anaheim and Seattle.
Don't forget Houston
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
Not ready yet.
Can’t fuck them till next year.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
R. Kelly should've followed this advice
"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully
by YonYonson on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Has anyone studied drafts in the past 10 years?
It seems that the A’s are very bad at drafting.
I'd say they are very bad at drafting hitters.
But ultimately some of it has to be chalked up to shitty luck. Grant Desme? That is bizarre luck. Otherwise it is just a general poor showing for batters in the A’s system but I wonder if it is like a flipping a coin 5 times and getting tails five times? The draft is to a degree a crapshoot still.
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
Depends on what you consider a good draft.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
It's a "crapshoot" in the sense that the majority of players don't become major league
impact players, so it’s easy to chalk up an individual draftee that doesn’t work out as shitty luck. It’s not a crapshoot in the sense that better drafting teams do better over the long run with enough data points than poor drafting teams.
Putting it another way it’s true that in a given AB it’s very hard to predict whether Miguel Cabrera or Emilio Bonifacio will get a hit the next time they bat, but that doesn’t mean that hitting is a crapshoot in that you can’t tell over the long run who is the better hitter.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
It seems that Brett was asking whether anyone has done a study on which teams are the Miguel Cabreras of drafting and which ones are the Emilio Bonifacios
You know of any out there?
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 22, 2011 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
Oh, so now we're trying to stay on topic?
Fine. Here’s a crude and simple attempt by David Sabino that had the Brewers first and A’s 16th between 2000 and 2009
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
That study would be more enlightening
if he actually showed us some data, as opposed to just assuring us in the lede that every pick was examined before launching in an ESPN-style highlight countdown.
Still, better than nothing.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Yes
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
There was a really good draft study
by Rany Jazayerli on Baseball Prospectus about five years ago.
As I recall, it wasn’t about ranking the teams, though. He focused on analyzing what the average returns were for different types of players and picks — college vs high school, value difference between different slots, etc.
A lot of the stuff we hear now about the draft comes from that study.
But five years is a long time ago — especially considering that when you’re analyzing draft picks you have to add another five years to that before you see results you can compare — so it’s entirely possible his conclusions are out of date.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
by iglew on Dec 22, 2011 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Linkage
Here’s a recap of the findings in the Baseball Prospectus study by Jazayerli.
Here’s the intro to a more recent study by Victor Wang on at the Hardball Times
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
great read
I was thinking the same thing about the AL West being like the AL East now. Also can you post some links regarding:
*It’s so dumb to me that cities bend over backwards to keep/lure professional sports teams. Every significant study has shown that building sports stadiums/arenas with public funds are bad investments.
Living up here in sac, KJand the Maloofs are trying to suck the town dryer than it already is. I know it’s a bad investment and will hamper the economy even more, but I can’t back it up to convince the fellas on sacbee/sactownroyalty etc. Thanks.
Falcon Punch!
at the same time
I would really like the Kings to stay.. but that’s not relevant to this blog
Falcon Punch!
Studies do show that, but only in the sense that
“bad investment” is defined as economic return for the money. The arguments sometimes put forth that public funds spent on a stadium will all be recouped in increased tax dollars is indeed false, and rather blatantly so.
But public spending isn’t a financial investment. When a city spends money it isn’t for the purpose of increasing revenue. A city spends money in order to get stuff that, in theory, serves the public. So in that sense, public funding for a stadium is a “bad investment” in the same way that public funding for a police force or a homeless shelter is a bad investment.
There’s plenty of room to question whether building a stadium for a sports team is a good way to spend public funds, but to judge it as an investment is holding it to the wrong standard.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
it's not like a new highway is "profitable" to a city either
It’s still a good investment if it reduces traffic and helps the residents.
Or a city park for that matter.
People just don’t think of stadiums that way because it is subsidizing a business, rather than a police force or homeless shelter.
And that is a fundamental difference, that people like the Maloofs, who own a freaking casino, will line their pockets thanks to help from taxpayers.
Now I still don’t care and would pay an extra .25% sales tax or something to support local stadiums (which I did in Pittsburgh for PNC Park and Heinz Field). Totally worth it in my book, but I can see why people would have an issue because it really subsidizes big businesses, i.e. sports teams and leagues, off the backs of taxpayers.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 22, 2011 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
Personally, I'm opposed
to public funding for a professional sports stadium. I just want people to ask the right question: Does this serve the public?
I suppose it goes without saying that sports stadiums aren’t the only area where governments subsidize private business in the guise of serving the public.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Yes, Boeing makes millions off government contracts but I doubt too many people
would prefer that the US didn’t have an air force
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
That's an entirely different situation than a sports stadium
Defending ones borders is a core responsibility of a government, so the government is paying to provide a service that directly serves the public – we won’t get into the argument of how much defense is necessary.
The [insert sports team name here] on the other hand isn’t helping to provide a service that the government needs to, or necessarily should provide. Nor is it addressing any sort of externality. It loosely may be providing something around which the community may coalesce, but there are a lot of other ways to do that which do not involve government funding. In this case, the primary beneficiary from a monetary perspective is the sports team.
Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day
by PDXAthleticsfan on Dec 22, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention players. If teams had to pay for stadia out of their own pockets
player salaries would likely be a lot lower, partly because it adds to the cost structure and partly because new stadia would be built less frequently making teams less attractive and lowering the revenue stream
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
"50 feet of crap"
That’s funny. And after all the trades that will probably go down, the A’s roster will be Weeks and 50+ feet of crap…
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
BTW, we need a new pic of Billy...
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on Dec 22, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
"Giambi-Tejada-Chavez-Hudson-Mulder-Zito aren't walking through that door, but that needs to be the mentality."
{looks at Cahill return dejectedly}
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Hopefully the Cahill trade doesn't turn into Huddy 2.0
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on Dec 22, 2011 11:02 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it would suck if Parker had an injury he tried to pitch through, didn't tell anybody about, and ruined his career.
Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR
stupid Dan Meyer...
At one point in my life I liked Dave Kingman more than Rickey Henderson. I was stupid.
by the_rozeboom on Dec 22, 2011 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
???
because there’s nothing worse than watching your team win 79 or 84 games every year. Ask a Blue Jays fan.
How about watching your team win 65-70 games every year? Ask an Orioles fan.
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Was last year's 74 win season really worse than 2010's 81 win season for you.
For me they were both just non-contending years
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Totally agree - the last two years were the same for me
with the difference being I thought we had a chance to be good before the 2011 season started.
John 3:16
"If they want to pay me like Mike Gallego, I’ll play like Gallego." - Rickey Henderson
Last year's season was more fun actually
I think mainly because watching Weeks is pretty damn entertaining. But also because we got rid of Geren.
But I agree, being an Orioles fan is worse than being a Jays fan. Mostly because there is no hope, ever; it’s not rebuilding when it lasts 15 years, it’s just suck, plain and simple.
by Billy Frijoles on Dec 22, 2011 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Ya I don't think it's the number of games won in a non-contending year as much as
the extent to which the year gives the fan any hope for future contending. The 1998 A’s won 74 games too and had a sixth straight losing season, but it gave me hope for future contending because they unveiled bright young stars like Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Eric Chavez, Ben Grieve and even AJ Hinch, even though he turned out to be a bad player.
The 2011 74 win team does nothing for me.
tko bira, masturbira -- Croatian proverb quoted by elcroata
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 22, 2011 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
I've only ever wanted to ask Blue Jay fans one question
http://deadspin.com/c_roll-theater/
this is NSFW…..
But, my question to Blue Jays fans is, is this why you attend the games?
In all seriousness though, the Blue Jays are actually building a great team and in my opinion, if they hadn’t been trapped in the AL East the past decade, they would have made the playoffs a handful of times over in the NATIONAL LEAGUE
My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time
by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 22, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Looking like gio could be on his way
To the red sox or nationals
by buckfan6 on Dec 22, 2011 12:25 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Just depends how much we get. Hopefully renden
Is the the deal. Since Zimmerman is blocking him
by buckfan6 on Dec 22, 2011 12:38 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Rendon is the guy I'd have my eye on in that system.
But he can’t even be a PTBNL for another month, so he’s not coming here. A.J. Cole would be fantastic, but everything else in that system looks pretty risky.
Rosenthal reporting Boston is going after Gio and Bailey in one deal.
So, they’d send all of their top 10 prospects over?
Let's go best case scenario:
Reddick, Bogaerts, Middlebrook, Lavarnaway, Workman, and Cecchini for Gio and Bailey. Yay!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Who's the stud shortstop they have
by buckfan6 on Dec 22, 2011 12:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
If you mean Bogaerts he's likely to move from SS
And if you mean Iglesias, he fields like Ozzie Smith but hits like my 14 year old brother.
I love rebuilding.
by John of Gaunt on Dec 22, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
I would be most definitely interested in Ranaudo, too
Warts and all, he was considered #2 pick overall possibility not so long ago. And I might actually prefer Brentz over Reddick.
I love rebuilding.
by John of Gaunt on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
Who does Boston have to give up
by buckfan6 on Dec 22, 2011 12:43 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
That's the heart of their system right there
Minus Harper and 2011 guys.
I love rebuilding.
by John of Gaunt on Dec 22, 2011 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
Rangers fan here...
I think that’s a pretty decent overpay by Washington. And I’m a Gio fan… think he’s a solid #2-3 that if he ever cut his walks would be a #1-2.
I’m glad we won Darvish so we didn’t have to compete with that kind of offer.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." by Earl Weaver
Linkage
Su Slu Twitter. (We lof her.)
Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis
Norris is fascinating
Hits .210 and STILL has a great season at the plate for a catcher.
I love rebuilding.
A's yearly Fire Sales by owner Wolff is pathetic!! Sell the team please!!!
Ya know, as a life long A’s fan (possibly a regrettable fact) I’ve seen my team win multiple world series and come close to many more opportunities to do so many times but since Wolff bought the team from the Hass family, we have seen NOTHING but terrible AAA teams masquerading as our beloved Oakland Athletics.
And it seems just as we are on the veerge of building a really good team with great young pitchers and a core of good players that only need an addition of a big bat, the owner says NOPE!!! Not gonna spend that kind of money!!!!
So the FIRE SALE starts all freakin over again!!!! Now we’ve watched this offseason as the team is dismantled once more!!!
1) Two young starting pitchers Cahill and Gonzalez have been traded
2) RP Breslow traded as part of the Cahill trade to Az
3) Sounds like our closer RP Bailey is now on the trading block
4) Last seasons starting outfield are now playing elsewhere
5) SP Harden probably won’t be back either (although injuries kept him out of the rotation all year)
Once again the Oakland A’s will start off the season with a roster filled with minor league players and
the AL West can refer to the Oakland Athletics as the Triple A’s!!!
You are Pathetic Mr.Wolff, so please do us all a big freakin favor and sell the club to someone who actually gives a damn about this team and baseball PLEASE!!!! You sir have taken a once proud and productive team into the depths of baseball hell and you need to remove yourself from this situation now before the MLB bigwigs merge our beloved Oakland Athletics out of existance!!!
You know this is the right thing to do so please sell the team to someone who actually likes baseball !!! Allow the team to move to Sacramento and play at an enlarged Raley Field. This would be a far more cost effective and do-able alternative than building some monstrosity stadium in San Jose… where the Giants and MLB have already said you are not allowed to relocate. The River-Cats can relocate into the Northbay, possibly Santa Rosa or back into Oakland as the new AAA Oakland Oaks!!!

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