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Why are the A's Selling/Rebuilding?

In the wake of the recent Trevor Cahill trade, fans are often left scratching their heads. They're confused as to why the A's are trading away their studs for unproven minor leaguers, and why the A's seem to do it so often. In this post, I'm going to attempt to clarify just why a rebuild is necessary, and hope to put things in context for this particular rebuild.

Star-divide

Let's start out by laying out what a team needs to be competitive.

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via manginphotography.net

  • Good players. It sounds simple, but this is the underlying motivation behind all rebuilding/all in attempts. In order to get wins, you need to have good players to score runs/prevent runs. If you have a 70 win team, you're not going to ever reach the playoffs, and you are forced to try and acquire talent. The simple base of your 70 win, barely above replacement level WAR team can only outperform so much. Imagine a team of Mark Ellis's. Mark Ellis is a fine player, but a whole team of Mark Ellis's will probably not be good enough. So how does a team acquire talent?

  1. Free Agency. This is the most straightforward way of getting talent. If you need a third baseman, you go out and buy the best available third baseman without a team. You can do this either through the MLB free agency, or occasionally through off beat means like a Japanese Posted player, or a Cuban defect, etc. The upside of this is that it costs you no talent, only money. The money restriction is more serious for some teams than others, depending on how rich the team is/how frugal the owner is. I also put the waiver wire in this category.
  2. Trade. You can trade some of your players to acquire players from other teams. A lot of the A's' success in the mid 2000's can be attributed to this, and particularly an imbalance of talent exchanged. Ideally you want to trade from your team's strength to acquire a weakness. So if you have two very strong Designated Hitters on your team, but you need a 2nd baseman, it's best to find a team that needs a DH that can spare a 2nd baseman. The hope with trades is to acquire more talent than you give up, but if you do this too often, you may get a reputation as a bit of a swindler, and thus spoil future attempts at trading with a team as they'll be extra careful with you.
  3. The Draft. You can take the young, unproven players from High School, College, or occasionally the independent leagues. Every team starts with the same baseline of draft picks, but these picks sometimes get traded or sold to other teams (occasionally this comes in the form of the cryptic "Player To Be Named Later" due to the MLB's rules about trading freshly drafted players.) Teams can also acquire draft picks via the Type A/Type B system (though this has been changed with the new Collective Bargaining Agreement.) The short version of this is that teams occasionally get extra draft picks that either get added into the draft or taken from another team to compensate them from losing valuable players to Free Agency. This is another way of purely acquiring talent while giving up nothing, but this is a much more risky option than Free Agency, as the prospects may not pan out, or you may not see them in the MLB for many years to come.
  4. The Rule 5 Draft. This is a seldom used option for any real impact players, due to the relatively low talent in the pool. In a nutshell, this is a draft designed to give players who are buried in the minors a shot. If you are a first baseman for the Angels right now, you're buried. The 1st base/DH slot for Slegna is occupied right now by Pujols, Morales, Trumbo, Abreu, etc. Teams can take a chance on you, but you have to be carried on the major league (25 man) roster all year or else you are returned to your original team. There are examples of this working out very well (Johan Santana, Josh Hamilton, etc.), but players here are, for the most part, career minor leaguers.

Money-wipe_medium

via www.brucesallan.com

  • A steady source of income. If you have a dynamite young team which are all under team control, that's awesome. Those guys will get expensive soon. When they reach their arbitration years, they soon will begin demanding more money from you. If they reach Free Agency, even if they want to play for you, they want to be paid competitively for their services. If you don't have fans in the stands, buying jerseys, or watching the game on TV in a good deal for you, you will not be able to pay your players. Occasionally you hear stories of the owner paying out of pocket for players, which means that they're taking a loss financially because they want to win, this is generally not the norm. These guys want to make a profit. In order to keep the money flowing, you need a few things:

  1. A product on the field. For the most part, if you have a good team on the field, the fans will come. This is especially true for a team like the Yankees, who are competing for the playoffs every single year. Every year that your team competes, you build a reputation as a winning (read: fun) team to watch, and you'll begin gaining more fans. You need both the diehard and the casual fan in order to get you money.

  2. A stadium. You need a stadium to play games in; the better stadium, the more fans you get. If you have a snazzy stadium, fans will come even if they aren't that into baseball, because it's fun anyway. If your stadium is a dump, you'll only draw in the diehard fans, because people who aren't big fans of baseball have trouble being bored for 3 hours with no relief.

  3. A good TV deal. If you have either your own TV station, or a favorable contract with a local TV station, this is big for you. This helps your team gain out of market fans, money from advertisements, and establishes you as a hip commodity for the general populace. The Yankees, the Red Sox, the Cubs, and a few other teams are very good with this.

  4. Revenue Sharing. I feel the need to mention this, if only in an explanatory fashion. In the MLB, the higher end teams share their revenues with the lower end teams. This is done because the MLB wants to maintain a national (plus Canada) presence, and keep the game relevant all over. Not every market, though, will be a New York, or a San Francisco, or a Boston. Instead of keeping the game only in the biggest markets, the more profitable teams give some money to the less profitable teams (note: almost every team is profitable, as it's really hard to lose money on baseball.)

So with it established that the A's need good players and good financials, let's examine what steps they have taken to get the team to win.

Moneyball-scouting-room_medium

via twscritic.files.wordpress.com

  • First, let's tackle the money situation. Do the A's have the money coming in to get/keep the players they want?
  1. A product on the field. The A's have made some efforts to keep the MLB team competitive. They acquired Matt Holliday, despite the fact that the surrounding team looked sketchy. They traded for Josh Willingham and David DeJesus, etc. For the most part, though, this team hasn't been all that great since 2006. There are fun players, but they haven't really been winning, so they've been losing fans. The bigger issue here is that the A's have proven to be the exception to the rule here. Even in years when the A's do particularly well, the fans don't show up. The prime example of this is 2007. In 2006, the A's made a big run and made the ALCS; it was awesome. If this rule follows, then more people would be showing up to the park in 2007, but this didn't happen. Season ticket sales actually went down. This can be attributed in some sense to the recession or the stadium, but the fact of the matter is that this team does not draw more fans when they are good.
  2. A stadium. I'm not going to get too much into this due to the brevity of information already available, but needless to say, the A's don't have a good situation with the stadium. The coliseum is old, cavernous, and not fun for the casual fan, especially if the team is losing. While the stadium might be suitable for a perennial 110 win team, the A's are not that. The A's need a new stadium somewhere in order to draw back the casual fan and generate some money.
  3. A good TV deal. The A's don't have their own stadium, and they've only had Comcast Sports Net California since...2009? 2008? Even now CSN-CA doesn't show all the games, due to various issues with profitability. As the A's draw in more fans, the prospect of having a great TV deal becomes more of a reality, but for now what Oakland has is merely serviceable.
  4. Revenue Sharing. Yup, they have that. In fact, they have a special clause in the new CBA that lets the A's continue to receive revenue sharing in the long term if they don't have a new stadium by 2016, despite the fact that they're located in a large market.

So they're struggling here. The product has been blech, the stadium situation is a mess, they don't have a good TV deal, and they're grasping with revenue sharing. How has this impacted their efforts to get good players?

Oakland_athletics_v_hanshin_tigers_preseason_jnd_lp6sbn9l_medium

via www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com

  • Good Players. Have the A's tried to make the team on the field the best they can?

  1. Free Agency. It's no secret that the A's have trouble here. Due to their sketchy financial situation, the A's have trouble acquiring free agents. While it is possible to acquire that shiny free agent, it takes a lot of effort. The A's can not simply go out and buy whomever they want, as one bad contract can cripple the team (read: Eric Chavez.) The A's have tried to fill their gaps with Free Agents (Adrian Beltre, Rafael Furcal, Hisashi Iwakuma, etc.) but they have not been successful. The player gets paid by a team willing to go over the top with money/years; an option which the A's do not have. Instead, the A's opt for players like Coco Crisp, Shannon Stewart, and Andy LaRoche. They go for the bargain players who have some problem (injuries, age, undeveloped tools) which could still be awesome if they ever put it all together. Free Agency isn't the most viable option for the A's. The're not always going to get the guy they need, because teams like the Rangers have the money to get him in order to deprive us of him

  2. Trades. The A's have been very active in the trade market. The A's have acquired guys like Sizemore, Willingham, DeJesus, and Jackson via the trade. They've also shipped away Ziegler and others. There's a bigger pool here, so let's go over a few key guys acquired via the trade, and analyze how well they've done. Rather then go over each specific players, I'm going to list off the relevant players who have and haven't worked out since 2007.

  1. The Draft. Let's take a look at guys who have and haven't worked out, like we did with trades.

    Good: Jemile Weeks (in the MLB, is good), Sonny Gray (in AA, doing well), Michael Choice (in AA, doing well), Cliff Pennington (in the MLB, is fine), Trevor Cahill (very good)

    Not as good as hoped: Grant Green (no longer a shortstop, bat struggling), James Simmons (will likely never be an MLBer,) Landon Powell (nothing more than a backup,) Richie Robnett (will likely never be an MLBer, with the Cubs now, I think)

    As you can gleam from any prospect list, for the most part, the A's farm system is not good. A lot of their moves have not worked out, though some have. Weeks and Cahill have become major leaguers that would do well on any team. James Simmons and Richie Robnett are nonfactors. They've done...ok in the draft, but not like in the early 2000's.

  1. The Rule 5 draft. We've taken some guys, but they were nothing fancy. The only relevant ones are Casseveh, Goleski, and Marshall. The first two were returned, and Marshall was serviceable for one year, but meh after that. Nothing to see here.

    Confused_medium

    via www.successtrace.com

So what's the point of all this, Pee Wee? Why did I bring you all here? What does any of this have to do with Billy Beane trading my beloved Trevor Cahill? It's simple. Due to the way things have worked out in recent years, the A's do not feel they have a strong enough nucleus to compete, and thus they must start over. The TLDR breakdown of this post is as follows:

  • The A's do not have a stable financial situation due to the stadium situation, and as such, can not acquire many players via free agency.

  • The A's recent trades for prospects have not worked out well (Taylor, Carter) for the most part, so the major league core is lacking in many ways.

  • The draft has had mixed results.

  • In the face of such opposition, the A's are choosing to roll the dice with a new set of youngsters, rather than plunge forward with the current set of guys. While Gio, Cahill, Anderson, Weeks, and Bailey are all good, the Oakland Athletics are a 75 win team. They have very little coming from the minor league system to help us this year (Gray, Choice, Green, etc. are all probably still a year out) and they have no guarantee that we'll have the money to pay these guys when they start demanding money.

  • If a team can not buy better players, and they can not bring up better players from within their own system, the only options are to sell it off and hope to get lucky with a new core, or trudge forward and hope that everyone who is underperforming stops doing so.

This is the core question you have to answer as a fan. Are you willing to put up with multiple losing seasons in order to see your favorite players do well, or do you want to roll the dice and hope for a sustainably awesome team? The A's, over their history, have chosen the latter. Billy Beane is not content with one lucky year of playoff contention sandwiched in the middle of 5 losing seasons. He wants a team which is the class of the division for 6-7+ years. In the face of a two time World Series team in Texas, and an Angels squad which now features Pujols and Wilson, the A's have elected to wait it out a bit. When I look at how many things have gone sour for the A's, I can't blame him.

I hope this clears things up for some, and I'm sorry for how long this became, but I want people to know why Beane trades off his players so often. He wants a winning team, not good players. This may sour some fans, but this is the route he has chosen.

Poll
Do you agree with the A's decision to rebuild?
Yes, the team is not good enough to compete, and they need to rebuild.
446 votes
No, they had a solid core of guys that could have competed, they just needed a little help/
142 votes
I'm more confused now than when I began
76 votes
TLDR, bring Cahill back, Beane sucks.
61 votes

725 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 452 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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Comments

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Good stuff RS.

The only thing that concerns me is Billy Beane setting himself up to be low balled after the Cahill deal. Unless he and Kevin Towers have some sort of secret “Let’s make each other awesome so we can eventually face each other in the World Series every year” hand shake.


“You scratch my back, I scratch yours.”

"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."

-John "Blue Moon" Odom

by mrod on Dec 10, 2011 3:58 PM PST reply actions  

My take on the Cahill deal is that

Cahill’s value was greatly tempered by the fact that he has had one great season out of three, not two or three. Cahill’s contract is also not that team friendly, but mostly he’s a bit of a wild card going forward, whereas Gio has put together back to back solid seasons and is worth more. I expect that if Gio is dealt it will be more the “definitely a good deal” we were hoping for, but didn’t get, with Cahill.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 10, 2011 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

If Gio is indeed next then I want

a stud 3rd baseman and a 4-5 tool corner outfielder. That’s just for starters.

"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."

-John "Blue Moon" Odom

by mrod on Dec 10, 2011 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Towers, if nothing else on this little blue orb, is a great arm scout.

I have some minor concerns about Parker. In his start against the Dodgers I saw some things I wasn’t crazy about. First of all, his curve ball is very hittable. There isn’t a crazy amount of bite to it and it really needs to be set up to be an effective pitch. The announcer was calling it a slider but I think it was a curve. The change up is a decent offering, but contact was still made on it. There were 3 swinging strikes on change ups, so that’s a positive, I guess. I really think he’s going to need to be able to dial it up a notch more consistently to make the curve a “freeze you” pitch because it’s certainly not a strike out pitch.

Overall, I got the impression this is a pitcher trying to cobble together a repertoire while dealing with the physical limitations of post TJS. Now, you could definitely look at that as a positive. He has a very good mound presence and a good idea of how to attack hitters. I like the poise. He looks the part. But in my mind there are question marks. Maybe these concerns factored into Towers decision to trade him, I don’t know. In any case, it’s just one start and when he’s fully recovered we’ll have a better idea of what kind of pitcher he’ll really be.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Dec 12, 2011 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

What that says...

…is that Towers decided he needs more seasoning to get his act together, and the D-Backs need another good starter right now. If Parker had the bite on his curve then Towers wouldn’t have been in the market for Cahill at all.

by richwol1 on Dec 12, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Gio or Bailey

Do they stay or get traded and which one is traded first?

by Raider08 on Dec 10, 2011 4:53 PM PST reply actions  

I'd put money on Bailey going first....

If I’m Beane and I’m even contemplating dealing Gio at this point, I’d wait it out till someone absolutely knocks your socks off with a deal. Period….

"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."

-John "Blue Moon" Odom

by mrod on Dec 10, 2011 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Great article

But I could have answered your initial question with two word, “San Jose.”

Beane stated both last week and last month that they’d only go into a rebuilding phase if the San Jose moved looked likely to be approved this off season with an eye toward stocking up on talent that would come of age for the 2015 or 2016 season (when the new ballpark in San Jose would open or darn close to it). If it didn’t look like SJ was being approved or that no decision was pending they’d stand pat with what they had and build on it. Cahill and Breslow already gone and Gio and Bailey on the block means only one thing. Beane has reason to believe or knows a decision is imminent on San Jose and it’s looking like the answer will be yes.

by athletics68 on Dec 10, 2011 11:38 PM PST reply actions  

it's just kind of weird that it would hinge on that.

The team sucked (esp. relative to the Rangers and Angels) and needed to be rebuilt anyways, San Jose or not.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 1:33 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Available trade chips

1. Gio only if its a cant refuse offer. He’s pretty much their big time trade chip left. Require a couple top prospects or no deal. Need an impact middle order hitting prospect

2. Bailey- he’s the most likely to go. Rosenthal added the rays to list of interested teams the other day. Yes please, but Friedman is tough to deal with.

3. If everyone is available. I’d shop a combo deal of mccarthy + balfour around. By themselves, neither have much trade value, but a team looking for a short term cost effective sp + one of the more consistent relievers could result in 3 or 4 middle tier prospect. Throw in ryan sweeney if needed.

I’m satisfied with the rotation depth with is still good with or without cahill. Lots of pitchers in their mid 20’s which are mlb ready, with parker/gray on the way at some point. I view outman and ross as mlb pitchers, of course health is an issue

by J.J. Miller on Dec 11, 2011 8:25 AM PST reply actions  

Would you trade

Bailey straight up for Wade Davis?

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah his FIP

is not good. But he has been pretty durable, and Bill James at least is predicting a pretty good year. I’m not saying I’d do it, but it’s something I see as possible.

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Same here.

Niemann I like, and…well basically all their other pitchers (Yes please on Price, Moore, Hellickson, and Shields kthxbai).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 6:59 PM PST up reply actions  

To Be Honest

I’m tired of prospects. They’re nice and cheap, and can be molded into great players, or they already are envisioned to be great – at least that’s what some say – but I would really like some good starting players. Prospects, no matter how touted, are still minor leaguers, and could bomb in the Bigs (like Chris Carter, though I think to fully judge him after the few at-bats that he’s gotten is unfair; I’m just using him as an example that A’s fans can relate to). I liked our OF in 2010, partially because it had three guys who are proven major leaguers. Yes, DeJesus may have had a terrible season, but I think that he’ll get back to form next year; it’s a shame that his off-year had to come in Oakland,but everyone has a down-year. I want more guys like him or Willingham. I like the Cahill trade, because I see lots of potential in Parker and Cowgill, but there is always a chance that they won’t cut it or that some sort of injury will cripple them. The A’s may be rebuilding – and the stadium issue has put us in a real conundrum, or paradox, if you like – but you can still rebuild with major league players. The A’s are in a difficult situation, basically limbo, and it’s nice to see that they do try – see Beltre – but trying won’t take away the frustration that any fan has when their team cannot contend.

by Sean Fortuna on Dec 11, 2011 8:47 AM PST reply actions  

Really?

I lied it. I thought Coco was strong, and while he declined as the season wore on, he still stole bases and had some key hits. Willingham was the heart of the offense, and DeJesus…. well, he was the only real disappointment.

by Sean Fortuna on Dec 11, 2011 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

I think he may be referring to the actual 2010 lineup

2011: Crisp, Willingham, DeJesus, Sweeney
2010: Crisp, Davis, Buck, Carson, Watson, Cust, Gross, Hermida, Jackson, Patterson, Sweeney

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 11, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, Yeah

I’m sorry, I meant to say “I liked our OF in 2011, partially because…” in 2010, the outfield was a mess. Buck, Watson, Carson…. the list goes on and on.

by Sean Fortuna on Dec 12, 2011 7:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually, it was pretty exactly average in 2011

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Only one thing really jumped out as not spot on to me.

I think it’s way early to say that Michael Taylor hasn’t worked out.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 11, 2011 8:47 AM PST reply actions  

I agree.

He had some injury issues. This should be his year to make the show.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 11, 2011 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah

2012 should be the big opportunity for a bunch of guys: Taylor, Miller, etc.
He had only 30 AB’s over 11 games, so you cannot determine his future or whether he’s good or not.
When did he hit a homerun, though? His stats say he has one homer, but I don’t remember anything.

by Sean Fortuna on Dec 11, 2011 8:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Here

Taylor homer

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 11, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks

Man, how did I miss this? I must have forgotten…
It wasn’t cheap shot, either.

by Sean Fortuna on Dec 11, 2011 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Cool

Now, if Taylor still ends up being a total bust (agree it’s way to early to say this), at least he’s tied Duane Kuiper in career home runs.

BEER IS GOOD. BEER IS GOOD. BEER IS GOOD, and stuff.

by doctorK on Dec 11, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I made the mistake

of watching that winter meetings video with Jeff Nelson and Mark McClemore about Gio. Jeff Nelson called Chris Volstad a frontline starter. I can’t believe these guys get paid.

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

because he's got like 15 minutes of time in the majors?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 11, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't really see why we're writing him off last year when in his second year at AAA

He put up this .272/.348/.392. After 272/.360/.456 in his 3 year in AAA as a 25 turning 26 this month he’s pretty much played himself out of being considered a prospect.

I don’t see why we are writing off Chris Carter just because he sucks at defense. He’s a year younger and has shown more pop.

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 12, 2011 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess what I based this on

were the two middling years in AAA, and the fact that most major prospect prognosticators have dropped him off their lists. I agree he still has a chance though.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 11, 2011 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Add Chris Carter to that list

And move DDJ to the “worked out well” list. Still was 2 WAR and it’s not like Vin Mazarro et al. are tearing it up for the Royals.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Done

Though I added a disclaimer that the DDJ trade was ok because Mazzaro was awful. 2 WAR is nice, but I don’t think the A’s had a 95 wRC+ in mind when they traded for DDJ.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Indeed not

I think he’ll be a lot better off in Chicago.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

He was in the "jury is still out" section though
Still to be decided: Eric Sogard, Adam Rosales, Joey Devine, Michael Taylor, Fautino De Los Santos

I think Rebuilding Season agrees with you.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 1:36 PM PST up reply actions  

and you agreed Holliday didn't work out?

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Dec 12, 2011 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

In what sense?

It was a dumb trade to make in the first place, so “going for it” was a bad idea.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

This is basically it

While his performance was fine for the 2nd half he was here, we gave up a ton, and didn’t end up really getting it back. It was a net loss of talent with no real change in how much we won. He just made us lose the division a little less.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice Post

I think the frustration is not with this Cahill trade but against the owner of the A’s. This is such a proud franchise but it’s been driven to the ground. I think what A’s fans are asking for is just the dedication to winning. I personally like this Cahill trade because I was never high on him.

In the aftermath of this trade, my concern is I don’t want to be the next PIT or KC. Never ending rebuild and no dedication of winning from the owners. Hopefully this will be solved by the new stadium and we can get back to putting a competitive team on the field year in and year out.

by danquadtwo on Dec 11, 2011 10:25 AM PST reply actions  

yeah somehow it shouldn't just be about saving money.

Even with Schott/Hoffmann they were notorious tightwads but we somehow had a winning team. If we can avoid getting stuck in the PIT/KC cycle of losing then this is good.

We will know a lot more if we let our young guys play.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for the post

I’ve accepted the reality of a rebuild. There’s no use fighting it since the A’s have been hamstrung by MLB’s non-action on the territorial rights issue, therefore limiting the A’s ability to do anything. And your post pretty much outlined what I’ve been thinking, so great job.

On the bright side, trying to figure out which propsects we get back, etc. is kinda fun actually (for me at least)

by Jigglz on Dec 11, 2011 10:36 AM PST reply actions  

Good reference post and great overall work

Can’t say I agree with every point but where I disagree it is with small details. I think everyone who follows the A’s will agree with the overall thesis. Overall a great piece of work that can help a lot of people understand the situation.

by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 11, 2011 3:17 PM PST reply actions  

Bottom Line:

The A’s don’t have enough talent on the major league roster or in the minors to compete now. They will be moving to San Jose in 3-4 years. Obviously the word out on the street must be they will get approval to go into Giants territory if they are making these moves and Reinsdorf is making public statements in support of the A’s. Ultimately, remember Giants territorial rights are fictional. The Giants can’t sue the A’s or MLB becasue MLB is exempt from anti-trust laws. If the Owners decide to support the A’s, there is nothing the Giants can do about it. Now, to keep the peace, the A’s will be made to give something to make the Giants less mad, such as up-front cash and % of media deals, similiar to the Baltimore Orioles and Washington Nats.

Since the A’s can’t win now, and they will be in San Jose in 3-4 years, and Oakland attendance does not matter anymore since Oakland does not matter anymore, it makes since to cut costs, load up on prospects, and have a prospect laden team to open your ball park in 2015. At that time they can overspend on some free agents, just like the Marlins are doing now.

by StewCrew on Dec 12, 2011 9:14 AM PST reply actions  

The Giants don't have to sue the A's or MLB

Yes, it’s true that the Giants can’t sue the A’s or MLB due to league rules and their anti-trust exemption. However, there are other ways to hold up a stadium in San Jose, the the Giants are doing it. The Giants are funding a surrogate (“Stand for San Jose”) to sue the City of San Jose to block a stadium deal. A potential stadium deal can be tied up in the courts for years.

The Giants want the A’s out (of Northern California), and the lower attendance in Oakland gets the more the rest of the league will agree with them. Wolff bought the A’s because he thought he could work a real estate deal. When such a deal looks less and less likely, it just becomes a matter of finding a buyer (to move the team) or how much Wolff will get in a contraction buy out.

by BatDay on Dec 12, 2011 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

It wont continue if the owners vote approves the move

If the owners vote to approve the move, I doubt the Giants’ ownership will choose to make themselves an island by continuing their fight.

by BigJ7489 on Dec 12, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah they're funding the surrogate

Once the T-Rights are stripped from the Giants they’ll cease funding the surrogate (lest they end up on the wrong side of MLB’s “best interests” clause and find themselves the ones under attack by MLB). Additionally the current suit is baseless anyway. San Jose is under no obligation to hold a vote on an option to buy land (what they’ve done so far). Hell it’s not even a necessity to hold a vote on the sale of the land. SJ city law only mandates a vote if tax dollars are being put toward a stadium directly. SJ however has said they’ll hold a vote on the land sale to honor the spirit of that law even if not codified directly. So the Giants are suing to force a vote that’s already planned to occur.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah there's that too

As long as no public funds are going toward the ballpark itself San Joseans seem more than willing to have a ballpark go up in their town. What will be interesting is to see how the Giants or their surrogates try to wage the PR war and try and incorrectly sway SJ voters into thinking the ballpark will be publicly financed. Though of course Wolff and the city will wage their own PR war correcting them so it’ll probably balance out in the end. I mean if Santa Clara could pass a football stadium with a direct 150 million dollar city component a ballpark with a 0 dollar city component should be a slam dunk in SJ.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I think this rebuild happens with or without San Jose

This rebuild is motivated moreso by a lack of talent in the pipeline than anything else. It’s convenient to build towards a theoretical new stadium in San Jose, but even without it, this team just is lacking in too many ways to keep trudging forward.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Not what Wolff stated

He said they’d try and build on what they had if they were staying in the Coliseum indefinitely (which is what will happen if SJ is denied).

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, I remember that

I think he might have changed his mind though (if it is the case that it’s the coliseum for a while longer)

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Not sure what you'd base that on

He’s stated it at least twice to my knowledge that a rebuild is only occurring if SJ is go or it looks like a go.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

True

But there apples and oranges situations. That and it’s hard to argue Geren wasn’t doing a good job with what he had. Melvin didn’t do much better with the same team. Geren was fired as a scapegoat as much as anything.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

sorry that was mostly a joke

I certainly understand your point

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 2:21 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree that the rebuild is not *motivated* by San Jose.

As you say, it is motivated by the lack of talent in the pipeline.

I would say, however, that it is enabled by San Jose. The lack of talent in the pipeline has been there before, but the downside of lost attendance due to several crappy years during the rebuild was too high a price to pay. Beane said repeatedly during the times of “reloading” that this team was uniquely vulnerable to permanently losing attendance with too many bad seasons. I believe that is what scared them off doing a full rebuild before now.

What San Jose does is (partially) remove that downside, because even if Oakland attendance does plummet, the new stadium will give them a chance to recover from it with a fresh start.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 11:04 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

That, or the "uniquely vulnerable" spin was made-up nonsense to begin with...

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Oakland does matter ...

The A’s are not close to having the San Jose situation “locked up”. T-rights, litigation, eminent domain and a Public Vote all need to go Wolffe’s way … and i just don’t see that happening.

@Athletics68 – you’ve been spinning this San Jose thing on every thread. I have no faith in Wolffe. He had Selig come out to his Fremont press conference and get egg on his face. SJ, is being played for leverage by Selig.

" Sleepy Floyd is Superman!!!"

by CoachBarry on Dec 12, 2011 10:01 AM PST reply actions  

Leverage against taxpayers

Ultimately, what Selig wants is to have taxpayers fund the stadium — if Oakland taxpayers were up for it, I’m sure MLB would be OK with the A’s staying in Oakland. As it is, I think in the end it will be San Jose taxpayers. Either way, MLB will be satisfied, just as they were with the Miami situation (where the team lied to the public about its finances, cried poor, and got a bailout from a broke and corrupt government).

So, what this whole game is about is convincing taxpayers somewhere that they really have to dish out money, because the rich owners of the team can’t afford it. Naturally, the seats and luxury boxes will then be priced in such a way that only other rich people can afford to go to games.

Understandably, the Giants, who paid most of the expenses related to Phone Company Park, would be a bit annoyed.

by KingDuct on Dec 12, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Well if that's their plan they're failing miserably

San Jose’s taxpayers aren’t going to be putting a dime into their project, the city has said as much, Wolff has said as much, and those voters polled have said as much. Wolff will be paying for the entire stadium, which he has offered to do, and now he’ll be paying for the land too. As for Oakland’s not sure how they’re going to get any taxpayer money out of a city that has none left (which is probably why Friday’s presser had no financing plan set out).

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

My guess is that this is why nothing's happened

If it were clear that San Jose was willing to pay for much of the ballpark, I think MLB would have figured this out by now and approved the A’s move. That’s why they want more leverage — get as much out of San Jose as they can before permitting the move.

If they can’t get the city or county to actually build the stadium, it may be that MLB finds other ways to get the A’s owners compensated — be that by getting favorable treatment for Wolff (or the other owners) for other real estate deals or be that by figuring out ways of routing redevelopment funds into land for the ballpark or some other way of giving favorable treatment to the A’s owners that lets them earn money.

However, I doubt the move will happen if San Jose just decides to contribute nothing. This is a game to increase pressure on San Jose.

by KingDuct on Dec 12, 2011 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

We'll just have to agree to disagree

There is no redevelopment money in Oakland or San Jose for MLB to try and get out of them. And the A’s owners have already been compensated in San Jose by the generous terms of the land purchase agreement. In fact it wasn’t until that agreement was announced that suddenly all this talk about pending approval in January started. So maybe you were right and they were angling for some favorable treatment and now that they’ve got it they’re going to act.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

There was the whole thing a few weeks ago now about Wolff's company buying a hotel near the ballpark site

ML wrote it up on his blog:

http://newballpark.org/2011/12/02/news-for-12-2-11/

(first bullet point)

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow I must've missed that one

Another conincidence that seems to support the idea that they’re going to get approval.

by athletics68 on Dec 12, 2011 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey, at least they had MLB at their press conference...

Unlike Oakland, which had ZERO representation by any of the three teams or leagues they’re struggling to keep.

Oakland/LGO working directly with the MLB? Then why weren’t they there? Didn’t they already shut down the Coliseum location? I’m sorry, but I don’t think Oakland has anything going their way. That press conference screamed “we need something to show the regular Oakland folk who don’t know a thing about what is going on so we can claim we tried.”

by LoneStranger on Dec 12, 2011 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmm...
I hear Gio Gonzalez is the #BlueJays’ focus, as I’d also heard last week. They have too many outfielders after today’s trade. #Athletics

We LOF Slusser, so here is the link to her twitter post.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 10:49 AM PST reply actions  

Moving forward...

Choice is the only outfielder in our system that I have any real faith in being a strong regular. So any deal that happens has to include an OF similar to him as the centerpiece. At least Cahill set the market for Gio, Gio has to bring more than Cahill.

by Maverick10126 on Dec 12, 2011 10:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Who has too many outfielders?

The Jays or us?

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Jays.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Rasmus, Thames, Bautista, Francisco, Snider. I guess Rajai Davis and Adam Loewen also qualify.

And they have Gose and Marisnick in the upper tier of their farm system and a few raw, high-ceiling guys in the lower minors. I would imagine Gose or Marisnick would have to be included in this deal.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

It would be funny to me if the A's ended up with Gose

Because he was the reason Toronto acquired Brett Wallace in an aside to the Halladay deal – they flipped Wallace to Houston to get Gose shortly afterward.

by thelincolndude on Dec 12, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Might need to find a 3rd team...

Dare we give the Astros a call to check on the availability of a certain Wallace?

by Brett Narloch on Dec 12, 2011 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

certainly not us

we can’t get rid of Sweeney….

There's no crying in baseball!

by gigglingone on Dec 12, 2011 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Hmmmm, so if she's suggesting the Jays would trade outfielders for Gio...

who are we talking about…? Marisnick? Gose? If trading with Toronto, I’d love to get some of their B+ pitching prospects, Syndergaard, Hutchinson, Norris, etc.

"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang

by King Richard on Dec 12, 2011 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I hope you're not thinking Snider or Thames as the centerpiece.

For one, the A’s need younger guys with less MLB experience. Secondly, they’re not that good.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I actually wouldnt mind

getting Snider as a secondary piece.

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

No i'm not, someone asked what the OF piece would be

I simply provided you the only likely options for that piece. Who knows what the rest of such a deal would look like. Most jays fans are simply hoping such a deal never happens, they fear a Gio signing with a passion.

by TtD on Dec 12, 2011 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Some people think it's harder for some players to pitch against NYY and BOS

than it is for some other players. I don’t really understand it. If it makes a difference at all, the difference is minuscule. Gio would still be a better acquisition than the alternative, unless the alternative is already a better player than he is.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

As I said down thread

Part AL East worries, but mostly that our stadium really doesn’t suit his pitcher type.

by TtD on Dec 12, 2011 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Possibly

He’d fit in quite well with the Yankees and their park though.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 12, 2011 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

And Gose is?

At least those guys can actually, you know, hit…

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:22 AM PST up reply actions  

At least Gose is a plus defender in CF, rather than average-ish in LF or RF.

I know you dislike Gose, but I would make that sacrifice. I’d ask for more if it were Gose instead of Marisnick, but I want very little part of Thames or Snider.

by NateHST on Dec 13, 2011 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Plenty of fast, athletic, good-looking guys are not plus defenders

We really have no idea whether he’s plus or not until he gets to a level at which the measurements of his ability are accurate. For what it’s worth, TotalZone thought he was a really crappy center fielder in 2009.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 14, 2011 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I understand that. That's one of the reasons I've been wary of Dom Brown.

He looks athletic as hell, but his defensive stats haven’t translated to the majors. I do like that Sickels said Gose had “stellar defense,” and this year he “made big strides refining his defense and baserunning.” BA also ranked him as Toronto’s best defensive outfielder and Toronto’s best outfield arm.

by NateHST on Dec 14, 2011 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Rajai Davis.

(Duh)

"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 12, 2011 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I think if a deal happens, that's probably what it will look like.

One of their outfield prospects (Gose or Marisnick) and then either two of their B+ pitching prospects or just one B+ pitching prospect and a few C+ guys.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

You should really think hard about Gose/Marisnick plus Sydergaard/Nicolino.

Either one of the pair would be ideal. Syndergaard just has ridiculous projectability.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Dec 12, 2011 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep, Francisco is certainly unnecessary organizational depth for them. Perhaps a package of some combination of Snider, Gose/Marisnick, Syndergaard/Deck McGuire/Hutchison is being put together.

"As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."
-Gustave Flaubert

by thinwhiteduke on Dec 12, 2011 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

How about...

D’Arnaud, Marsinick, and Syndergaard/Deck McGuire/Hutchison together?

by HarbirD on Dec 12, 2011 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I doubt D'Arnaud is going anywhere

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Then, there shouldn't be a deal

Gio deserves to get D’Arnaud. He’s just too valuable to not receive a premium prospect for.

by drink on Dec 12, 2011 12:15 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah I agree...

I want D’Arnaud regardless… plus they got arencibia and aj jimenez
Also I don’t want Snider cause he only got 4 years of control left

by HarbirD on Dec 12, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

That would be sad if Gio is traded for Arencibia.

“Hey Bro! I heard I was getting traded to your team!”
“What? I heard I was getting traded to your team!”

“D’oh!”

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah but...

We need offensive prospects… maybe Gose and Marsinick together with a good pitching prospect works i guess

by HarbirD on Dec 12, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Sickels ranked D'Arnaud number one but as a B+.

There are six other guys still in that system besides D’Arnaud that he also gave B+. If you want offense specifically for Gonzalez, you might want to look at another system like Boston’s. I don’t think it really matters though.

Toronto can offer pitching depth, Boston can offer offensive depth. Choose whichever package is the best.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

You really like Boston's system that much?

I’d rather have Marisnick than anyone in their system.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

If they're willing to move depth, probably.

Middlebrooks, Cecchini, Lavarnway, Brentz, Jacobs, Reddick. And Bogaerts is arguably a better prospect than Marisnick.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, I may be underestimating Bogaerts

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

But like I said, Boston would have to come with enough depth

to warrant consideration because the only real high-end guy they have his Bogaerts. I think Middlebrooks is greatly overrated by Boston fans.

The reports are saying Beane wants two top tier guys (top five in the organization) and a couple mid-level prospects from Toronto. Boston would have to give up Bogaerts and several mid-level guys. But if Beane really wants offense bad enough, it’s probably there.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Riddikulus!

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 10:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Sox

Sox have been thinking about sending Bard and Aceves to the rotation and with Whealer and Paplebon gone, the Reds Sox still need more bullpen. Likely still in on Bailey.

by Dougaldl on Dec 14, 2011 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Then again...

Maybe the Jays got a 4th OF type that Beane loves unconditionally…

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 12, 2011 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Eric Thames?

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

The Rebuild

Good arguments all.

Too bad they don’t apply in the Trevor Cahill trade. He and Parker have the same number of years of control. Cahill has been inconsistent but is healthy and a proven MLB pitcher; Parker has been injured, is unproven, but has better stuff. So all that is a trade-off but because both would ostensibly be around in six years, it’s a wash. Unless they’re super-sleeper talents, neither of the other two players would figure to be involved at the end of the rebuild - just as Breslow would be very unlikely to be around for more than another season or two.

by richwol1 on Dec 12, 2011 11:39 AM PST reply actions  

Yeah, the Cahill trade is a little awkward

As Grover explained, ideally you want 2-3 guys with Cahill ceilings, but for some reason this didn’t happen. This post was mostly meant to explain to fans why teams decide to rebuild, not so much “was the Cahill trade good.”

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

So the Blue Jays are pushing hard for Gio....I'm almost afraid to write this

Because last week after I wrote my proposal for the Trevor Cahill trade, he was traded just hours later, but for not exactly as much as I would have hoped for.

Well, if we do part with Gio, and I really hope we don’t. I really think we can rebuild while holding onto Gio and waiting for Brett. Everyone else is on the block save Jemile. Shipping our Andrew Bailey for Prospects should be our main focus at this point, while building around Gio because, as opposed to the Cahill, I really think he has what it takes to be a solid #1 in the MLB for years to come. However, if we must trade Gio, we better hold out for the right package. From the Blue Jays, I wouldn’t want anything less than the following 3 scenarios:

1.) Gio Gonzalez for OF Colby Rasmus and C Travis d’Arnaud (B+, Blue Jays Top Prospect)
Logic: They have plenty of OF depth in the minors that seem MLB ready, maybe we could make them part with Rasmus.. Also, with the young stud JP Arencibia already at Catcher, it seems to me that D’Arnaud is blocked. Why not ask for this package. This is what I’d start with.
2.) I’d be hard to imagine the Blue Jays wanting to part with their top prospect and the young and promising Rasmus…So then we substitute Rasmus and ask for the great OF Prospect Jake Marisnick (Blue Jays #3 Prospect, B+, Top 50 Prospect Overall): Gio Gonzalez for D’Arnaud and Marisnick….I personally don’t think this is that far of a stretch. I’m sure plenty on AN will disagree with me. Which takes us to the minimum I’d want in return for Gio….
3.) Gio Gonzalez for D’Arnaud, Justin Nicolino, LHP (#5 Blue Jays Farm, B+) and Joel Carreno (#19 Jays Farm, C+, borderline B)…The Blue Jays farm is loaded. They have a block at Catcher, and they have depth in the OF. We can go after their OF depth in their farm, or hold out for their top Catcher. I think we should do the ladder and try to add some of their depth at the pitching level.

My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time

by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 12, 2011 12:08 PM PST reply actions  

Not sure what the Jays will give up

But I agree that d’Arnaud should be demanded in any deal that includes Gio. Anything else, no deal.

Personally, I’d like Beane to get d’Arnaud and 2 of those SP’s they have, maybe McGuire and Hutchinson. Not sure if he can, but that would fit needs and be a good “Haren-like” haul as far as talent goes.

by drink on Dec 12, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

The Snydgard Serpent.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

This

I understand not getting Bauer or Skaggs for Cahill, but Gio is better. If teams want Gio, they gotta deal their top guys. The whole fetish-ization of prospects is getting out of hand in trades.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Hmm...would you rather have D'Arnaud and two guys like Gose and Aaron Sanchez

or three guys like Syndergaard, Marisnick and Gose/McGuire/Hutchison?

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

The former

Two AA position players and a low-A pitching prospect will trump almost any other combination

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather have Marisnick than D'Arnaud, personally.

"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang

by King Richard on Dec 12, 2011 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Why?

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

they're in many ways pretty similar prospects

they both have relatively low walk rates, average to slightly below average K rates, developing power, and they both play premium defensive value positions. But Marisnick is two years younger (and yes, a lower level, at which his gaudy numbers are subject to the fact he was repeating), has good speed and is supposed to be a plus defender. If there’s even a chance D’Arnaud doesn’t stick at catcher, he loses most of his prospect value. That chance seems very unlikely with Marisnick and probably balances out the fact that Marisnick is riskier because he’s at a lower level.

This is all in addition to the following:

Suzuki may or may not improve, but he won’t be the A’s starting catcher when the rebuild is over. However, Marisnick will be ready within a year or two, which would force Suzuki to be traded. I’m hoping the A’s trade Suzuki, but on their own terms. I fear that Suzuki would lose a significant bit of trade value if D’Arnaud was clearly forcing him out. Which is not a significant reason not to acquire a prospect, but since I think the two are more or less equal otherwise, I’d rather have Marisnick.

"I think what baseball projects, and what classical music needs, is the sense that one goes to a live event not to experience greatness, but to experience the possibility of greatness.... Not every game is great but what we go for is the chance that this particular game might be.' —David Lang

by King Richard on Dec 12, 2011 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Plan B.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Dec 12, 2011 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Given those options

Snydergaard, Marisnick, and McGuire.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't really care McGuire that much.

He’s my least favorite of their high-end pitching prospects. Hutchinson’s younger and put up better numbers in the same leagues. He’s not as projectable but I tend to favor shiny stats more than size and body type. Ditto with Nicolino.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

funny though when we become competitive...

we would “fetishize” our own prospects as well ahha

by HarbirD on Dec 12, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

There just has to be a general acknowledgement of failure rate

And then building trades around that.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

See: Yankees, New York

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I posted this in Narioch's trade thread

but if you read the comments on the mlbtraderumors post you’ll see some of the most ignorant shit.

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

how do you mean

I never read that thread…Do people think we are just going to give GIO away>!!??!

My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time

by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 12, 2011 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah

and they called him a “3-4” starter

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

comical

like what Yankee fans thought they could give up for GIO last year when those rumors were starting.

My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time

by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 12, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not so much that jays fans see him as a 3-4 starter

It’s more that they see the Rogers Centre really playing up to his weaknesses so he’ll have the results of a #3 starter while probably pitching better than those results deserve. The Skydome very much lends itself to groundball pitchers and punishes the wilder types (see Morrow’s mixed results).

They simply don’t want to see the cost of paying for someone they believe is doomed to fail.

by TtD on Dec 12, 2011 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Gio is arguably worse than Morrow and Romero and therefore could be considered

the Blue Jays #3 if he were on their team, but that’s really taking a bearish view of his future. For him to be #4 he’d have to be behind Henderson Alvarez or someone like that, and, while possible, is even more pessimistic.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd take

Gio over Morrow because of age and injury history, but I understand it from a pure talent perspective

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm sorry, wasn't referring to place in the rotation, but likely results.

Most honestly see him struggling around a 4.3-4.5ERA in Toronto, simply because the park is so unfavourable and the division really takes a lot of pitches (kills pitchers with high BB%s). They don’t see him being worth that, and honestly believe that an Alvarez type (power sinker, + changeup, WIP slider) will yield far better results against the division.

It’s partially hype and cynicism but it’s based on a record of Gio types struggling in Toronto.

by TtD on Dec 12, 2011 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

If you want an easy referenc btw, call it AJ Burnett syndrome

Jays fans utterly fear fastball-curve pitchers with control issues, Burnett still gives a lot of them nightmares despite him probably being worth his contract while he was with us.

by TtD on Dec 12, 2011 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Burnett was good with Toronto, no? I see xFIP- of 82,79,81 in over 500 IP

It’s only in NY that he’s struggled and scuffled.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

For the most part he was fine

but then he’d blow up at random suddenly every few games. While it’s not a fair representation to say that is all he was, it’s what most Jays fans remember about him, the horrific self-destruction.

by TtD on Dec 13, 2011 3:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Yup

apparently the idiots don’t understand he’s the best and cheapest SP option (Darvish only better but obviously very expensive) avaliable with a dozen teams interested in him

by HarbirD on Dec 12, 2011 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

do you think Rasmus would be involved?

My mannerism a prism/ And it should shine
Light it if you would/ Be so kind, right now'd
Be A' Good Time

by DaRubiesSLOKingsA's on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I personally think he's pretty good but doesn't have all-star potential most years, sort of like Nick Swisher

I also don’t think he’s much of a defender in CF. I’d rather have Marisnick and Gose since we don’t really have a CF. Also what Frank Cohen said.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I really don't think they'll deal both.

If you could get Gose/Marisnick plus Syndergaard, Nicolino. Don’t even hesitate.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Dec 12, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

If it's Marisnick and Syndergaard, sure.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Team had damn well better get more than 2 B+ prospects for Gio

The Cahill trade suggested that the market may simply be bad for trade chips right now, which is why the team should not force a deal.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Honestly think your seeing an adjustment with the new CBA

With the inability to pick up easy extra draft picks, a lot of teams like Boston/Toronto and the Rays are going to be less willing to trade off high value prospects for mid-order starters. They’ll be saving them up to acquire sure thing top-end starters and then trying to promote more agressively internally. It may just be a temporary thing, but those teams seem to be playing it pretty cautious this offseason. Think it’s already hurt you on the Cahill market, and could hurt you on any Gio market. Think the Garza trade last year is going to be the last of the system clearing SP trades for a while.

by TtD on Dec 13, 2011 7:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah but Toronto just traded their best pitching prospect for a closer.

so…

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 7:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Huh?

We traded the biggest risk of a bunch of pretty equal pitching prospects (Alvarez/Hutchison/McGuire/Nicolino/Syndergaard all have higher upside and are similarly rated) for a closer whose going to cost cents on the dollar for the next three years.

Only Sickels had him rated as our top pitcher, and on a coin toss basis pretty much at that. With half the jays scouts having him down as a closer, and half as a future starter Molina was an expendable for the asset we got in return. If Santos was the price of other closers on the market, i’d agree with you no question, but to fill that role with no effect on the teams overall budget was too good to miss.

by TtD on Dec 13, 2011 8:00 AM PST up reply actions  

I think they're pretty rare to start off with...

But everything depends on circumstances. Gio has a good contract status and has shown that he’s one of the best lefties in the AL… oh and he’s 26 (I think). It’s not like they’d be trading their farm system for Roy Oswalt.

by Brett Narloch on Dec 13, 2011 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

If I may put up a price argument then from a Jays perspective on Gio's value

The easiest way for that is to fall back to the Halladay and Marcum trades that have shaped their viewpoint.

Marcum as a #2-#3 starter with two years control mid-prime (28-29 seasons) netted one B+ prospect in Lawrie, Gio has a far longer contract than this and thus is worth more.

Halladay was a true ace starter, the Phillies were allowed to agree a new contract prior to the trade, and the Jays threw in $9million. The Jays received Drabek (A-/B+), Taylor (B), and D’Arnaud (C+). Jays fans consider this to be the absolute limit a Gio deal would be worth as Halladay was a far better pitcher, and we allowed the Phillies to wrap up a team friendly contract plus cash.

The Jays fans thus in their mental order have Gio rated around the B+,B,C+ prospect combo range in value, and would be more comfortable in the B+, B, C- range of offer.

As to his actual value, who knows, I know you guys have him rated higher than that by some margin, so the actual value is likely somewhere in the middle. Just thought it would help to outline the thought process from our end.

by TtD on Dec 13, 2011 8:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I comp Gio to the Matt Garza trade

Gio offers an extra year of control and produced better than Garza during his last two years in Tampa. Garza netted a B+ in Archer, a B in Lee, a B- with Guyer and a C+ with Chiniros.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 13, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Strangely enough most people think the Cubs got screwed on that deal

It was widely panned at the time, and more so now with Lee looking to be a steal.

by TtD on Dec 13, 2011 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I can't see how they got screwed on the deal.

They got a known commodity, for prospect gambles. If Lee had blown out his career, Archer joined the priesthood, etc, the Cubbies would be the ones stealing.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Garza deal certainly serves as the high end

Playing around with the numbers (WAR vs. estimated salary) pretty much leads to the same place… Gio is worth ~$30 million in surplus value.

But that’s in a vacuum.

You can’t deny that there are a lot of teams interested in Gio, including 2 other AL East contenders. As long as there’s a lot of interest there’s no need for Beane to drop his price. Your B+/B/C- isn’t going to cut it if you’re competing with NY and Boston and whoever else is the flavor of the day.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 13, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

But to your point

Yeah, the Cubs overpaid.

But Gio is a the better trade value so his price could be pushing that return.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 13, 2011 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Wasn't Halladay in the last year of his deal?

Gio is worth more over 4 years (or is it 3?) than Halladay is over 1.

by Brett Narloch on Dec 13, 2011 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Halladay

But with the Phillies paying $20 million a year, they are not saving much on his market value. You could say that the Phillies gave up three good prospects to get Halladay and then pay him a lot of money.

Part of Gio’s value is that you get him for the same 4 years but at much less money than if he was a Free Agent.

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Whatever, dude

If the Jays are making that kind of offer, Beane would be seventeen kinds of idiot to take it, as it would be a straight win for the Jays on present value alone without even accounting for leverage, i.e. the fact that they’re getting value that they need immediately whereas the A’s don’t have to deal Gio now.

I really don’t give a crap what past psychic traumas Jays fans are working through. Gio’s trade value is substantially in excess of Halladay’s.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 9:54 AM PST up reply actions  

The A's had to trade Cahill now because...

Well…

umm…

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 13, 2011 8:38 AM PST up reply actions  

trade

Beane trades Cahill…

Cowgill $10, Parker $20, making grover mad…..priceless!

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

I like the idea of forgoing

D’Arnaud and taking a shit load of high upside guys. I’d do Marisnick, Syndergaard, Snider, AJ Jiminez, Knecht, and season one of “Game of Thrones.”

by sourstuff on Dec 12, 2011 1:06 PM PST reply actions  

I don't mind that

If a team wants to trade for high-upside guys, they just have to get a lot of them.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Dec 12, 2011 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Jim Bowden speculates on a few trade possibilities...

1. Texas Rangers sign Prince Fielder for eight years, $192 million
There’s an arms race brewing in the American League West, and the Los Angeles Angels just fired the first salvo with their signings of Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson at the winter meetings. Rangers assistant general manager Thad Levine said the team likely would have to circle back and reassess whether to pursue Fielder. When a division rival makes moves as large as the Angels’, Levine said, his team’s entire offseason strategy must be re-evaluated. Armed with a new TV contract with Fox, Texas has the money to sign Fielder.

5. Yu Darvish posts and signs with the Rangers for four years, $75 million
The Japanese free agent can replace Wilson in the starting rotation, thus leaving the Rangers the option of returning Alexi Ogando to the bullpen where he was so dominant. The Rangers’ and Mariners’ scouting departments are the best at evaluating and courting Japanese players, so if they are that sold on Darvish, he’s easily a No. 3 starter at worst.

7. Red Sox trade Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick for Oakland’s Andrew Bailey
If Red Sox GM Ben Cherington does not sign Madson, he will have to solve his closer problem through trade. Bailey is a logical choice, but his injury history does not bode well. Cherington will fill the void in right field if Reddick is dealt by signing Carlos Beltran.

LINK

by Brett Narloch on Dec 12, 2011 1:45 PM PST reply actions  

If the A's don't contend for the next few years, Lowrie just simply isn't needed.

If the A’s could get more for Bailey than just Reddick from the Sox, they’d probably go for someone in the low minors with high upside.

by Brett Narloch on Dec 12, 2011 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

is Josh Reddick that good?

I’m just glancing at fangraphs, doesn’t appear to have much power.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Dec 12, 2011 2:24 PM PST up reply actions  

and if we're dealing Bailey

I’d rather go for Mark Trumbo. yes i know there was no truth to the rumor, but maybe beane calls up art and laughs a little and says, “hey there’s this hilarious rumor going around about us dealing bailey for trumbo. Crazy, i know, but maybe it would be kinda cool”

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Dec 12, 2011 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Mark Trumbo had a sub .300 OBP last year.

I want no part of that.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

And we don't need to add to our list of 1B/DH/LF

Allen and Carter are more than capable of hitting ok with terrible defense.

by Brett Narloch on Dec 12, 2011 2:29 PM PST up reply actions  

of those, only Allen has shown he can hit

I just want to stock hitters with some pop. It’s been tough getting runs with slap singles.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Dec 12, 2011 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Nevermind Barton's 126 wRC+ from 2010.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

3rd BASE!!!!

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 7:53 AM PST up reply actions  

DO IT, BILLY.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 7:54 AM PST up reply actions  

He can't.

[The whole Sizemore/ManCrush thingy]

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

also the whole "torn labrum throwing shoulder" thing

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Treat him like a race horse.

Take him out back, and turn him into glue.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

and then use it to glue his labrum back together

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Clone him, (with a good shoulder, of course]

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

true

but my impression was that it being Trumbo’s rookie season, he would improve and bring his average up as he gets some experience.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Dec 12, 2011 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Allen showed he could hit until the pitchers found the holes

He did not show any sign of adjusting,

I like the guy and hope he puts it together for 2012

by Trainman on Dec 12, 2011 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

What's to say Trumbo won't improve? And what do you think about Bailey's value?

He was a rookie pressed into playing due to injuries, and given that, I feel like he performed pretty damn well. Bailey is an injury-plagued relief pitcher, who didn’t seem to come back that well from his injury last year; yes, the saves were still fine but he blew a few games and generally the movement on his cutter changed.

I hope he can return to the same dominant Bailey we know and love, but even that dominant Bailey misses at least a month every season.

I am not sure what to expect from Bailey but it is a pretty hard sell to demand anything above a B- prospect at the center of any package.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

What's to say Brandon Allen won't improve? What's to say Chris Carter won't improve?

What’s to say Daric Barton won’t be healthy? What’s to say Kila won’t all of a sudden be good?

There is zero reason to trade one of the 2 better trade chips on the team for yet another first baseman who isn’t that good. Trumbo was massively hyped up last year because he hit homers as a rookie.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup. Trumbo really wasn't that good at all

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 7:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Trumbo has already far and away eclipsed Kila, Carter, and Allen

And Barton has had one great september, one great season, sandwiched by a few horrible seasons.

A young, cost-controlled, power hitting 1B is obviously something we need. If we didn’t want a 1B, we wouldn’t have a wide-open four way competition for the job. There’s no clear solution internally, just a bunch of throwing shit at the wall. Trumbo would be a solution.

Trumbo was very good as a rookie, which is what separates him from the dreck we have now.

Also again Bailey’s value is not that high. Maybe it will be higher at the trade deadline but most contenders have found solutions at closer, and again Bailey’s injury history is bound to hurt his value.

I also think his cutter looked a lot worse after he came back from injury, it was frequently up in the zone. If that pitch is not what it used to be, then we need to get rid of him now for whatever decent return we can get.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 12, 2011 7:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Mark Trumbo had an OBP of 291

He’d need to be a perennial 30 home run guy in order to come close to justifying that. I especially think he’d flounder in Oakland, considering that his LD rate is not that great (137th in the league out of 145 qualified players.) If all his only strength is hitting the ball, on the fly, out of the park, and he comes to a park which restricts home runs a lot, his value drops a lot. Suddenly we’re left with a 290 OBP guys with only 15-20 home runs, and that point we might as well keep running out what we’ve got.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

LD rate is a largely useless statistic, because it's incredibly subjective

and there is a well-known bias against scoring balls as liners in Angels stadium.

That being said, you’re not wrong about Trumbo. He’s Chris Shelton with worse plate discipline.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:34 AM PST up reply actions  

I had no idea about LD%

I’ve always heard it referenced as a way to see if players are hitting the ball hard. Maybe it will become better if Hit F/X ever becomes widely available?

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 13, 2011 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Paul's right.

The big problem is that the definition of a line drive is entirely subjective. It’s just up to the official scorer that day, and their definitions vary wildly. And yep, Tango already has specific definitions of different batted ball types based on inclination angle and launch speed, to be used with HITf/x.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/launch_angle_speed_off_the_bat_trajectory/

by danmerqury on Dec 13, 2011 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

The problem with LD% is not the concept.

It’s the execution. The data is simply unreliable.

Batted ball data in general is kind of iffy, but LD% especially so.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Power isn't worth more because we have none.

A .500 slugging 1Bman is worth X amount, and that X is the same, regardless if the surrounding lineup slugs .600 or .250. We need a young, cost-controlled hitting 1B. Not necessarily a power hitting one.

Trumbo was NOT very good as a rookie. Not at all. He was five runs BELOW the average first baseman.

by danmerqury on Dec 12, 2011 7:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Why?

If Reddick and Trumbo were the only two options, I’d take Reddick every time. Trumbo doesn’t walk and he’s a first baseman, of which Oakland already has too many. Reddick’s a good defender and actually has some pop in his bat. Not 30+ HR power like Trumbo, but Reddick is the overall better player. He’s also younger and has less service time.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

i didn't know

if reddicks numbers were helped by boston’s friendly confines. Tired of all our OFers having zero pop, decent defense, and a weak stick.

It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.

by ru155 on Dec 12, 2011 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I miss the days of

Swisher and Thomas keeping home run pace with each other….

by Maverick10126 on Dec 12, 2011 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Those were wonderful days.

Even Milton Bradley was happy for a while there.

That rug really tied the room together...

by Streams Of Whiskey on Dec 12, 2011 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

In Oakland, Reddick would probably be capable of hitting 10-15 HR a year

and his defense would more than make up the difference between him and Trumbo.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Darvish will not sign for 4/75

If we conservatively assume a $40M posting then that would be $115M for 4 years of Darvish.

I think he signs for 5-6 years so the team gets more benefit for their upfront investment. I really wonder if he will be interested in 6/65 or if he wants more per season. The system will limit what he can make and he probably won’t be happy with any offer he gets.

by DrDoom on Dec 12, 2011 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Darvish can be a FA after the 2014 season. He made about $6M in 2011, the highest annual salary

for any NPB player ever. So if he returned to Japan he might make something like $20M over 3 years. If he came over as a FA for 2015, he’d probably be able to sign something like a 5 year $80M contract in MLB. So he’s probably expecting to make something like $70M over the next six years if he stays in Japan and comes over after 2014.

Let’s say his market value as a FA is something like 6 years $100M. That would indicate that the most anyone should bid for him is something like $30M. He might take 6/$85M or something if he’s willing to take a discount for the security of a long term deal, which means maybe it’s worth bidding up to $40M or so. I’m having a hard time seeing why anyone would bid more than say $45M unless they really think he’s a $18M/year pitcher and are willing to pay full retail price.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 8:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Bid anyway

So if the A’s win the bid, but can not come to terms with Darvish and he goes back to Japan, does that make Gio even more likely to go for a better package of prospects. Gio would be the number one avalible stater. So, if the A’s won it is kinda best of both worlds.

The only down side is that this would be two bid and fail in a row, might turn off future players from Japan.

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 6:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Reddick

With the Sox having both Reddick and Kalish, both young left handed hitting rightfielders. Could the A’s get Reddick without dealing Bailey?

Just throwing out an idea. There are reports that the Sox do not want to increase payroll and thus go over the cap for the third year in a row. This one of the big reasons they have been looking at Bailey over just signing a Madson or K Rod. The Sox are also looking at moving Bard and Aceves to the rotation. Thus, their pen is looking weak.

So if the A’s were to trade a Balfour or Fuentes and pay one or the others salary in a deal for Reddick. The Sox would get a 2nd or 3rd reliever for no $ and it would cost them an outfielder that they have two of.

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

This post reminded me of the Cool Runnings speech:

Let me lay out some difficulties for you
Maybe Jamaicans could be good baserunners?

Then I of course had to go look up stats for every Jamaican MLB player, of which there are four. Stats are here. Fun trivia question. Normal baseball fans will know three of the names. The fourth is for diehard trivia buffs.

by Ciderbeck on Dec 12, 2011 2:22 PM PST reply actions  

Yup

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 12, 2011 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

and suddenly i find his last name loaded with extra meaning…

by AV on Dec 12, 2011 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

awesome

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

That picture of Rickey makes me so jealous.

We got him when he was older and already lost a step. But he was still one of the best players I’d ever laid my eyes on. I can’t imagine the privilege of seeing him in his prime. If you did, consider yourselves very lucky. What a ballplayer.

"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."

by padmadfan on Dec 12, 2011 2:42 PM PST reply actions  

Go Padres!

Wuertz was scratched from a minor league game on Wednesday, but bounced back quickly on Thursday, throwing mostly fastballs and sliders, although he did mix in three sliders. -Rotoworld

by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 12, 2011 3:00 PM PST reply actions  

Huh???

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Dec 12, 2011 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Luke Scott

is being non-tendered. I wouldn’t mind the A’s signing him for 2012. He has no future in the big leagues but could cobble together an .850 OPS on a one-year contract and give the A’s some kind of option if all the young ‘uns fail and the next generation isn’t ready for the big leagues.

He could also be Emil Brown, so there is a cautionary tale here.

by richwol1 on Dec 12, 2011 3:58 PM PST reply actions  

I'm not talking about taking at-bats away

Beane has said that Taylor will start in AAA. But some kind of veteran power hitter hanging around the team would be a good thing, I think. There’s nobody there with anything resembling HR power if Allen and Carter falter.

by richwol1 on Dec 12, 2011 5:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Beane didn't flat out say Taylor's starting in AAA.

He said he wasn’t ready to hand him a starting job—as of right now, Sweeney is the starting RF. Sweeney and Taylor could probably be platooned. It doesn’t make sense to me that the A’s need HR power in the first place. They’re not going to compete.

I’d rather watch them fail than Luke Scott be Luke Scott.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Not going to compete

I don’t think Bret Anderson, Dallas Braden, Brandon McCarthy, and any of the other pitchers want to lose all their games. When you’re rebuilding you try to win a little bit. And no, I’d rather not see Michael Taylor in the majors if he can’t hit major league pitching.

The A’s will need to have a couple of experienced players on the team to balance the others.

by richwol1 on Dec 12, 2011 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

What exactly is the benefit of this "balance"?

I can’t think of any concrete benefit to having old players on the team that couldn’t be gotten from decent coaches. The A’s need to give guys like Ka’Aihue, Carter, Allen, Taylor, Barton, Mitchell, and Miller time to play. This is going to be a lost year, so it’s a good time to see whether or not these guys can hit MLB pitching.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

not saying Scott, but

The value in picking up a few older players would be if you can get a player you can flip. Can you sign a player that will be moveable in July. The A’s get a few months of a vet that the young players can look up too. Then ship him away. There are risks with injury (Sheets) and I am still not sure why Beane never did this with Harden to Boston deal.

Harden for example ….resign cheap and the trade in July, when Anderson might be ready or Parker or Gray may have done all they can in AAA.

Maybe sign a vet outfield that gives Mitchell time to heal and Taylor more AAA AB’s

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 6:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Didn't Boston back out on the Harden deal?

I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Beane that pulled the plug on that one

by Maverick10126 on Dec 13, 2011 7:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Boston tried to reneg because of Harden's health issues

after already agreeing to the deal. It basically went like this:

Theo: Okay, Lars Anderson and a PTBNL
Beane: Deal. We’ll have the paperwork drawn up and sent to MLB.
Theo: OMFG WAIT A SECOND WHAT IF HARDEN GETS HURT. how about if Harden gets hurt we dont send a PTBNL but if he pitches we’ll give you another player.
Beane: How about you grab a spoon and eat my ass?

and the deal was off.

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 7:53 AM PST up reply actions  

You forgot the last bit

Theo: Fine, Billy. We don’t really need Harden once we get to the postseason, anyway.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Dec 13, 2011 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

"We'll just go get Erik Bedard. Fuck your injury prone pitchers!"

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 8:12 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Anderson

Still, the deal did not work out for the A’s or the Sox. Right about now, I would take Anderson and the nothing else. Harden left for nothing. Beane got nothing and the Sox, well they got beer…..so, that has to be worth something, right?

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

That wasn't the point of stopping trade talks.

The point was Theo tried to renege on the deal after accepting it, and if Beane had done that it would just set him up for more of that down the road with other GMs.

It was dirty pool on Theo’s part.

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 9:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Good point...

People seem to forget when making deals it’s not only about the players you get but the relationships you build with that GM for future trades

by Maverick10126 on Dec 13, 2011 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

good point

Just sucks this happened.

One would think that after 8 yearas GM, one would not have to go though this with Theo.

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it "dirty pool",

but I’d definitely agree it’s a case where you need to show that you draw a line on a deal and don’t let yourself get wheedled down on it.

Looks to me like Theo gambled that he could eke out a little extra with a last-minute request, figuring Beane wouldn’t call it off for just one little escape clause. Theo lost that gamble.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

The reasoning given was that Boston "had reservations about Harden's health"

So, either Theo didn’t take care of due diligince and understand RICH HARDEN has injury risk, or he tried to renege and change terms after the deal was agreed.

Either way Beane was 100% correct in not going forward with the deal.

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

A few more details came out a couple days later.

Of course Epstein knew about Harden’s health generally. The specific detail he heard only after the initial deal was agreed was that Harden had taken a cortisone shot after his first start in 2011. Arguably, this should come as no surprise to anyone, but Epstein used it as an occasion to request adding a condition to the deal: that the PTBNL would only be included if (a) Harden made at least 8 starts with Boston, or (b) Harden was put on Boston’s playoff roster. Beane refused to accept the new condition. This was creatively interpreted by some as Beane’s lack of faith that Harden would remain healthy enough for eight starts, hence the vague reports by Boston fans about “new news” about Harden’s health.

I completely agree with you that Beane was right to say no.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Better
We’ll just go get Erik Bedard. Fuck your injury prone Canadian pitchers!

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Damn straight!

This was supposed to be in response to mikev, and the “hee” was supposed to be here.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:23 PM PST up reply actions  

damn straight!

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

pass.

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd do it

He won’t cost much and you can sit him against lefties. If it looks like Allen, Carter, Taylor etc. are going to pan out in the spring you could move him. More than likely a few of the young guys won’t make the team and there will be plenty of room for Scott. He would easily be the best hitter on the team too.

Would also lead to a lot of fun-filled threads on AN… and by fun, I mean not fun.

by DrDoom on Dec 12, 2011 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

MLBTradeRumors reports Oakland has come to terms with...

Powell, Rosales and Barton.

I really didn’t expect Barton back, but I’m glad to see it.

by AsFan72 on Dec 12, 2011 4:43 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

Why wouldn't they bring him back?

His 2010 is the single best season by fWAR of any player on the Oakland roster. He’s a hell of a lot better than Powell and Rosales.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

It all depends on his health

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 8:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I was much more shocked to see Powell and Rosales tendered.

Not that they cost much…but there’s still Donaldson and Recker, right? I’m meh on Rosales.

by Cartwright on Dec 12, 2011 8:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Is anyone else surprised they signed Powell and Rosales?

I kind of figured it was time for Donaldson/Recker and Sogard. Are they going to leave those guys in AAA again?

by DrDoom on Dec 12, 2011 4:43 PM PST reply actions  

Depth.

And the chance that someone blows up and becomes trade fodder.

by LoneStranger on Dec 12, 2011 4:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah. Rosales was actually pretty good in 2010.

I don’t know what happened in 2011 but if he’s healthy, I expect him to be much better going forward.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

It's true.

I wonder if he just wasn’t fully recovered or something.

by Cartwright on Dec 12, 2011 8:55 PM PST up reply actions  

He's put up a negative WAR three of the four years he's played in the majors.

2009 was particularly bad, since he got 266 plate appearances and only managed a 63 wRC+. I’m not sure if 2010 Rosales or 2008/09/11 Rosales is the real one, but I’ve got a feeling 2010 Rosy is the best we’re gonna get.

by danmerqury on Dec 12, 2011 9:37 PM PST up reply actions  

The question is, then, is Eric Sogard any better?

The guy has no power and can’t really play on the left side of the diamond. Even his 2nd base is sketchy. I’m basing this on the fact that he never played anything other than 2B in the minors, and reports on his defense were mixed there. As far as Rosales, 2007 and 2010 were under 30 games a pop, so not really huge sample sizes. I’m not saying start Rosales, but I’m bullish on Sogard being anything better than a 700 OPS hitter with meh defense.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 9:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Sogard is better in that he has on base skills and plays a solid 2B

Rosales isn’t really good at anything. He’s not a good hitter overall, he’s not really a very good SS (he’s “ok”) — I guess he’s a pretty good 2Bman but mostly his skills lie in the “intangibles”: He’s a great clubhouse guy, easy to like, fun to watch…And while I appreciate that as a fan, if that doesn’t sustain you he’s not all that appealing.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 9:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, but he doesn't have good pop

Just “better than Sogard” pop. You wouldn’t get excited about Rosales for his power. Don’t get me wrong: I like Rosales a lot, as a fan, and I appreciate him. I just don’t think he’s actually very good.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 9:58 PM PST up reply actions  

This is true, but 2010's the only season where Rosales saw significant playing time at

second base. I like him there just from a non-meaningful, non-scientific, personal eye test, but defensive metrics love him there, too. The sample size is small, but it’s possible that he’s just an excellent second baseman. I think he’s capable of hitting .270/.320/.400 like he did in 2010, with very good defense at second. Sort of like a (really) poor man’s Ben Zobrist? But I guess I’m also on record of not liking Jemile Weeks as the team’s 2B moving forward.

Eh, color me hopeful on Rosales.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 9:51 PM PST up reply actions  

He would be a REALLY poor man's Ben Zobrist

Kind of in the way that Cindi is a really poor man’s valedictorian-leader-thingy.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 9:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Barf
“It’s just like God,” she said at the end of the interview, “to put us on a team called the Angels.”

by Glorious Mundy on Dec 12, 2011 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Since we are not contending

I would ask one thing…

That we beat the slegnA more times than they beat us and cause them to lose to Texas in the division.

by Trainman on Dec 12, 2011 5:40 PM PST up reply actions  

"People were deceived by the numbers."

And the saintly pair were won over by the numbers.

I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.

by franks a lot on Dec 12, 2011 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I see sanctimonious religious arrogance is not limited to the male side of the Pujols household

I really won’t have any difficulty with this Pujols-to-LAA thing. He’s actually very easy to despise once you get below the skin-deep nice guy facade.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:48 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

NOT A MACHINE JUST ALBERT

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by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

this article has really helped me to despise him.

I used to respect him a lot more. Now that I see the thought process behind this..well, yeah fuck him.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 13, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

I've disliked him ever since he and LaRussa very publicly shilled for one of those right-wing-asshole causes a few years ago

I think it was one of those defense of bigotry “defense of marriage” initiatives, but I may be misremembering.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

And to think that I once respected LaRussa because I thought that

his anti animal-cruelty stance equated with progressive views on other causes.

I resemble this comment.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Dec 13, 2011 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I had a feeling that lowballing him initially wouldn't turn out well for them. They would have

been better off signing him to a 10 year deal 2-3 years ago. I’ll never understand the desire of some human beings to throw low offers out initially. They all seem to hope that if they try it 100 times maybe someone will take them up on it once or something.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 12, 2011 8:27 PM PST up reply actions  

A's candidate if there ever was one

luke scott, latest free agent commodity to hit the market, http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111212&content_id=26152322&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things. ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

by flyme on Dec 12, 2011 5:30 PM PST reply actions  

because any chance you get to sign a bigoted sack of crap, you gotta do it.

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I refuse to believe Luke Scott is a Major League Baseball player

until I see his MLB ID card and his last full contract.

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 12, 2011 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I heard that he hit 30 homers

but I didn’t see a single one, so I don’t believe that they happened

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Haha

I mostly don’t want him on the team because of who he is. But he just isn’t a good fit for the team anyway. You said it much better up there though.

by Cartwright on Dec 12, 2011 8:57 PM PST up reply actions  

You know,

for the most part, I’d be fine if the A’s made a signing and the new guy was a total dick. As long as he can hit/throw well, fine. I’ll root for him. But Luke Scott? That’s stretching it. Too far for my tastes.

by danmerqury on Dec 12, 2011 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I really don't care about their personal opinions. We've had plenty of real nice guys on our club.

They have been HAMMERED for playing poorly on the field. Milton had been a total dick his entire career, but played well here. If Scott stated he was an Atheist, made disparaging remarks about about Christians, would everyone here be as upset?

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Probably, if those views were actually the product of uninformed prejudice

Actually, probably even if they weren’t. Hating on atheists is totally okay, after all.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Hindu didn't even make the polls.

I guess they just don’t care about us at all.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 13, 2011 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

We're "Miscellaneous"

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

woo! oh, wait.

the artist formerly known as inbillywetrust

by stm72 on Dec 17, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions  

If they included fat people in that list,

they would totally trounce all the others.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

it might be more taftful to say “full-figured.”

by AV on Dec 13, 2011 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Like Jane Russell?

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

like william howard.

by AV on Dec 13, 2011 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Not a chance

Chris Christie may be president before the decade is up.

The more interesting question to me is how many would rule out voting for an agnostic president.

by Glorious Mundy on Dec 13, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I doubt there's any significant difference

In fact, I doubt most of those 48% could even tell you what the difference is.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

My poimt was that most of his teammates totally disagree, publically, with his views.

They do, however, say he is an excellent teammate. This is more important to me.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Also I dislike lots of people whose political views I largely agree with.

The two are not related at all. Much like musical taste.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

This.

I’m far more opposed to my team including a dick whose politics I agree with than a non-dick whose politics I disagree with.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 5:04 PM PST up reply actions  

He probably would not wreck the A's locker room, true

However, if the reward for hiring a prick is to win like two more games in a season where you have essentially zero chance of making the playoffs anyway, I say you’re better off giving him a miss.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with you, PT.

I don’t want him either. However, his personal opinions shouldn’t play into this.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Dec 13, 2011 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

A's could find a new pitcher... and DH?

Via Ken Rosenthal:

Source: #Diamondbacks will non-tender Saunders, Owings. Will try to re-sign both. Saunders, though, could have robust market. #MLB

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 12, 2011 5:45 PM PST reply actions  

I would totally let Owings DH on his non pitching days

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

In Oakland, he could bat 5th probably

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 12, 2011 5:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I mean, I know its a scattered, small sample size

but a .349 wOBA, 106 wRC+, .222 ISO is something that has to be checked out. His BABIP is absurdly high, but the dude can hit.

by Rebuilding Season on Dec 12, 2011 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

He was a good ass hitter in college, I think.

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Your 2012 Oakland Athletics:

If he’s not good enough to pitch for you, he’s probably good enough to hit for us.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Dammit, I had one chance and I worded it wrong. Your 2012 Oakland Athletics:

He’s not good enough to pitch for you, but he’s good enough to hit for us.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

holy shit though, seriously

Owings had 680 ABs over 3 seasons in college.

and a 1.039 OPS

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by mikev on Dec 12, 2011 6:41 PM PST up reply actions  

He's also a pretty good pitcher

Why wouldn’t you sign a very solid reliever who just happens to have the potential to be one of your better hitters? I would totally grab him.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

He's not a good pitcher.

His career FIP is 4.95. He probably wouldn’t even get a sniff on the MLB roster unless he actually could sustain enough offense to be a fifth OF or something. He actually has more career fWAR through his offense than he does through his defense.

by NateHST on Dec 12, 2011 8:05 PM PST up reply actions  

And Fangraphs has him at 2.3 WAR pitching and 3.8 batting.

Good lord. Take out the huge pitching positional adjustment entirely and assume he plays CF or something, and he’s still at 1.0 fWAR with the bat.

by danmerqury on Dec 12, 2011 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Well spank my ass and call me Judy!

You’re right; I had thought he was better than he is. {Double checks stats one more time} No wait, he was 8-0 last year; I was right!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 9:33 PM PST up reply actions  

He must have specialized in "giving up the tying run"

In my minor league days, relievers who pitched their way into getting wins were called “vultures” (don’t know if they still are).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 12, 2011 9:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I think it's more like "sign a fifth outfielder who can pitch when a game gets out of hand"

Not that I’d necessarily be opposed to that.

Though it might create some shenanigans with the DH rule. I’ve never really understood how that works. If he moves to the mound from the outfield, does that mean you lose the DH?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 4:52 AM PST up reply actions  

So go the Brooks Kieschnick route?

I’d be all in favor of this. Maybe he could play OF in a pinch?

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 13, 2011 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

No, it means his fastball isn't going to be nearly as good.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 13, 2011 7:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Short answer: Yes, you lose the DH.

Long answer:

If a DH is chosen, he hits for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers.

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game.

If Owings moves from OF to the mound, he is now the pitcher. The DH, in order to remain a DH, must now hit for Owings, but he can’t do that if Owings is already in the lineup for himself.

So now you have a choice. Either the erstwhile DH stays in the game and now goes to play outfield where Owings was, in which case the DH has played defense and the DH rule is voided …

The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player

… or a new guy comes off the bench to play OF. Since Owings is still in the game, the new guy can’t take Owings’ rotation spot. Therefore he takes the DH’s batting spot. In that case, either the new guy is the DH who just got moved to OF, in which case it’s the same as above, or else Owings and the OF have “swapped positions” so that Owings is now his own DH. The latter would mean Owings now hits for himself, and so does any new pitcher that replaces him later in the game, which is functionally the same as losing the DH.

Also, note that you can’t use a double-switch to move the DH to another spot in the batting order:

A Designated Hitter is "locked" into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.

(All quotes from the rulebook, 6.10(b).)

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 8:47 PM PST up reply actions  

He was a good, ass hitter?

"You can attract a hitter but you can't make him hit" -Lou Wolff

by Geronimo Berroa on Dec 12, 2011 7:50 PM PST up reply actions  

takes one to know one

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Dec 12, 2011 7:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I hear he was a real high end prospect.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 10:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Just do the math

To me it’s simple. The Rangers were a 96-win team in 2010, and the Angels were an 86-win team newly fortified with perhaps 10 wins in Pujols and Wilson. IOW, you’re probably looking at a division with two 90-plus-win teams. That’s a whopping 15 wins the A’s have to find, just to become competitive. Realistically, the A’s would probably need 95 wins to take the division.

There’s simply no alternative, except to hope that the Rangers and the Angels both fail catastrophically. That’s not exactly a strategy.

by GlassHeart on Dec 12, 2011 6:26 PM PST reply actions  

It's a fine strategy.

It’s every bit as efficacious as hoping the A’s will add a bunch of great players this year.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 12, 2011 10:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Exciting

I can’t wait to see the A’s take on the Astros for some great divisional games in the next couple years….yeesh. The division will be very heavy at the top and bottom for a little while.

Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on Dec 12, 2011 9:34 PM PST reply actions  

From

an outsider’s perspective who has followed the offseason pretty closely, I believe Billy Beane knows what he’s doing and is making the right choices to set up for the A’s for plenty of (near) future success.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 12, 2011 11:12 PM PST reply actions  

Ya

the super fun cycle. Oh hey look, Brian Giles for Jason Bay. Oh Jason Bay is good, we can win. No no, Jason Bay is going to be a free agent and needs to be traded, sigh…

Andy LaRoche!?!

We will both get out of it soon I hope.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 12:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I hope this is a piece to the stadium puzzle

Because I am sad Trevor is gone. However, I won’t help but feel a little relief if in fact BB and Co. know something that we all don’t about the A’s situation. Am I crazy to think that Wolff and friends have the answer they are looking for?

"You no cookin" "YEA DO"

by PorkchopSandwiches on Dec 13, 2011 12:01 AM PST reply actions  

Well....

I will tell you exactly what will happen. Beane will trade away Gio & Bailey for some guys that will be here a year or 2 & drop about 50 pts. in their BA. Some of them will get injured. Then our pitching staff will suck as well as our hitters. SJ won’t be close to building anything for 8-10 yrs. Just look at the economics. The A’s will continue to shed fans & attendance & will be a celler dweller. Just watch & see.

It ain't over till the fat lady sings...but she is on a diet now!

by Bulgaricus on Dec 13, 2011 2:05 AM PST reply actions  

Compensation for Willingham

I know he’s a Type A, and that the new rules mean we get the pick in front of the team that signs him, plus the sandwich pick…but if he signs with the Twins (as has been speculated), do we get screwed out of an extra 1st round pick because they draft in the top 10? I think that’s the case, right? And if he signs with the Indians, we don’t (and get the pick right before theirs, plus the sandwich round pick)?

by guy incognito on Dec 13, 2011 5:50 AM PST reply actions  

Comp

I believe the first 15 picks a protected, just like the past. I think it all changes next year. So I think if Willingham signs with Colorado, Cleveland or Minnesota the A’s get a pick in the 2nd round. Likely about about pick 60.

Would be nice to get the Red Sox, back interested again (pick 24)….maybe if the A’s deal Bailey to the Sox, they can make the Sox sign Willingham as part of the deal. Or maybe Gio to the Blue Jays and get the Jays to sign Willingham (pick 17) as part of the cost….kinda unlikely

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 6:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Crap

So…we’re getting shafted, probably. Fantastic.

by guy incognito on Dec 13, 2011 8:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Getting a 2nd round pick = shafted?

Come on. That’s been the rule for type A free agents all along. You can’t automatically assume your guy will be signed by a top-half team.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

And if it's the Twins

doesn’t it mean we get a pick at the beginning of the 2nd round, so essentially 2 sandwich picks?

by drink on Dec 13, 2011 1:14 PM PST up reply actions  

It's not entirely clear how the rules are

and won’t be until the CBA gets released. I’ve seen reports saying that it would be 1st round and reports saying it would be 2nd round. I suspect it’s the latter and you are correct (in which case, the A’s would essentially getting three sandwich picks in rapid succession, then the normal 2nd rounder shortly thereafter.)

Too bad Matsui and Crisp couldn’t hold on for Type B status.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Dec 13, 2011 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I've seen nothing at all suggesting it's first round.

MLB’s official summary of the CBA discussed the new system starting in the 2012-13 off-season but didn’t address the interim system for the 2011-12 off-season.

Separate reports revealed hints about the interim system, notably that it’s like the old system but with the compensation pick in front of the signing team’s instead of taking from the team, and certain players being reclassified in what picks they qualify for. If that’s all it is, then compensation picks for 1-15 would be bumped to the second round, just like before. One of the reports suggested that might be only 1-10. I’m not aware of any that suggested a compensation pick would be allowed before #11.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Picks

Looks like it will be about pick 40 and around 65 to 70 for Willingham, and about 55 for DeJesus. There will be a ton of sandwich picks this year, something like 35 to 40 in all.

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

In my calculation I came up with #69

as the latest possible for the second Willingham pick.

Your other numbers fall within the ranges I came up with.

Also, I’m showing 34 as the maximum sandwich picks. There are 43 total Type A’s and Type B’s. Of these, two were declined arbitration and seven have re-signed with their team. (Unless I’m missing some, in which case please correct me.)

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 14, 2011 1:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Sounds good

Sounds good, mine were just a ballpark guess. You did a great write up about it

by Dougaldl on Dec 14, 2011 6:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Did you count the guys who accepted arbitration in your re-signings?

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 14, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions  

The ones I know about, yes.

Kelly Johnson and Francisco Rodriguez. Any others?

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 14, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

David Ortiz

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 15, 2011 3:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, got him too.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 15, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Are we the worst franchise in baseball?

The saddest? The least inspiring? Trying to put my finger on it. Definitely something like one of those. Maybe it’s “most depressing.”

by RLangford on Dec 13, 2011 6:05 AM PST reply actions  

Pittsburg, Kansas City, Baltimore still have Oakland beat

And it isn’t close.

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 13, 2011 8:18 AM PST up reply actions  

*Pittsburgh

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 13, 2011 8:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Not Kansas City. Their farm system is still good after graduating Moustakas and Hosmer

Baltimore has more money. So yes, maybe we are the worst. For now.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I meant over the last 10ish years

Taking all things into consideration, KC has had it worse than Oakland.

"He's listed as day to day, but then again, aren't we all?" — Vin Scully

by YonYonson on Dec 13, 2011 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh yes, we've been pretty decent over the past 10 years. 3 playoff appearances

5 contending seasons. It’s the present that sucks.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

There's still the Astros

Get out the time-fracture wickets, Hobbes! We're gonna play Calvinball!

by UrgentMirth on Dec 13, 2011 4:26 PM PST up reply actions  

no

I do not think that this is even the worst time in A’s history.

Think back to the joy of 1977. Finley is looking to sell the team to Denver or New Orleans. Your team was gutted by free agents. Finley is selling any player he can.

MLB franchises have ups and downs….would you want to be an Astro fan today?

things will get better

by Dougaldl on Dec 13, 2011 6:49 AM PST reply actions  

Not even remotely the worst time...

They’re only 5 years removed from an ALCS appearance and 8 or so years removed from being the second winningest team in all of baseball over a 5 year stretch. There’s a dozen clubs I’d rather not be right now. There’s clubs that have never won a ring, there’s clubs that haven’t been to the series in generations and there’s clubs that haven’t sniffed the playoffs in decades.

Small market teams need downtime to reload. They’re trying to line up the next surge with a new home, that’s simply a sound business move. This lull has stretched out a bit longer than any of us would have liked, primarily because of a couple of ill-advised “win now” attempts in ’09 and ’11.

They’re finally doing what should have been done in ‘07, and that’s a full commitment to rebuilding. Hopefully we’ll see no more aging sluggers and stop gap solutions, and the next couple of years will be looking towards the future. Weeks is legit, and odds are one of Allen, Carter, Taylor, Miller. etc. is bound to work out.

This may be the first time we can get to know some guys with the hopes of them sticking around for a while, and I fully intend to enjoy it.

by AsFan72 on Dec 13, 2011 7:43 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks, I appreciate the long-term perspective

I wasn’t alive for the joy of 1977 but yes, I guess it could be a lot worse.

by Billy Frijoles on Dec 13, 2011 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

How many times does Bean need to rebuild!

Can Bean ever get it right! We just can’t always win with rookies! It is so sad to see a good organization turn into a Minor league team! Iv’e been a A’s Fan since I was 4 years old, and I keep seeing these Rooks come and Go! Cahill is not replaceable, he is a big game pitcher with alot of heart! Bean keeps on giving, How can you even want to be a fan of Oakland because they have no identity! We don’t have any power in hiiting! We need some pop and heart at there! I havent’t even played small ball for a while and I could hit way better than Pennington! and he was one of our best hiiters last year! Unbelivable.

by jcma'sfan on Dec 13, 2011 3:43 PM PST reply actions  

Beane

Beane
Beane
Beane
Beane
Beane
Beane
Beane
Beane

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

heart

heart
heart
heart
heart
heart
heart
heart

by danmerqury on Dec 13, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

&hearts:

&hearts:
&hearts:
&hearts:
&hearts:
&hearts:
&hearts:
&hearts:

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

OMG TYPE-O.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes. I know. The first one worked, too.

No idea what happened there, I copypasta’d.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 4:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Mmm, pasta!

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 5:11 PM PST up reply actions  

If at first you don't succeed....

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Willingham -> Twins.

Multi year deal, according to Jerry Crasnick on twitter who I cna’t link because the new twitter is all fucked up and makes linking individual tweets a pain.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Dec 13, 2011 3:45 PM PST reply actions  

He reduced the distance by 60%.

That’s not bad. Also, same time zone.

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

honestly, I was hoping Atlanta would sign him

I appreciated that he said he liked playing in Oakland – classy

by my_cat_max on Dec 13, 2011 6:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Draft picks!

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Dec 13, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

...yeah.

You’re new here, so I’m not going to go ape on you (well, unless you’re a troll). Here are some things that you should know about commenting here:

1. Spelling and punctuation are not optional. Paragraphs are readable; blocks of uninterrupted text are not.

2. Apropos of #1, yelling in every post (i.e. lots of exclamation points!!!1 and/or ALL CAPS) is a great way to get dismissive replies and generally not be taken seriously.

3. When making fact-based claims, please back them up with evidence. Even if it’s a two-game scouting report, it’s better than nothing at all. And more importantly, letting people know why you think what you think is key to allowing them to figure out how much weight to give your opinion.

4. Don’t gratuitously insult players, execs, or other posters. It’s fine to be critical— even harshly so— but name-calling is not the kind of criticism that makes anyone else smarter, it’s just infantile venting.

5. In general, before posting, ask yourself whether someone reading your post will come away with more information about the team or baseball, or merely about your current state of mind. If it’s the latter, consider canceling your post. AN is not your Facebook wall.

6. Nothing will get people annoyed faster than a failure to use the reply button, which causes conversations to lose structure and become impossible to follow.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 7:29 PM PST up reply actions   4 recs

A's have no chance in 2012.

Rangers are coming off back to back WS appearances and the Angels just signed the best hitter in the game. As an A’s fan, have to ask yourself : Do I want to see another 70-80 win year with the players we currently have + a couple mid tier free agents or would I rather see a good team in a few years? The time to rebuild is now. Be patient, it will be worth it. FWIW, I liked the Cahill trade. A’s got an A- prospect.

Enter arbitrary sig line here

by theoriginalrods on Dec 13, 2011 7:20 PM PST reply actions  

Some days I think fans should tell clubs that they,too, are...

going off to rebuild. You know, maybe knock off three years as a Yankees fan or something so they can be more competitive fans down the road.

Man, this offseason is making me grumpy.

by Drone on Dec 13, 2011 7:34 PM PST reply actions  

Don't fans already, basically, do this?

My posting has been dialed way back the past year or so, and it’s not just because I’m living on the East Coast now.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 13, 2011 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn't realize you had moved.

Where are you now? D.C.?

Baseball is a stupid-making enterprise in that nobody wants to be singled out or say something dumb. —Michael Lewis

by iglew on Dec 13, 2011 8:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Dec 14, 2011 5:24 PM PST up reply actions  

As I've said elsewhere, I won't be renewing my MLB.tv subscription.

I’m not going to waste money watching this ballclub if they can’t be bothered to put a competitive team on the field.

"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury

by OldhamA on Dec 15, 2011 3:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I just upped my season ticket package an extra seat.

I’m looking forward to watching the young kids learn to play pro ball.

by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2011 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Sleep.

"Nah, you look like Elijah Wood." - danmerqury

by OldhamA on Dec 15, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Wolff is a disgrace and should be forced to sell the A's to someone who givesadamn!!!

Ya know, as a life long A’s fan (possibly a regrettable fact) I’ve seen my team win multiple world series and come close to many more opportunities to do so many times but since Wolff bought the team from the Hass family, we have seen NOTHING but terrible AAA teams masquerading as our beloved Oakland Athletics.
And it seems just as we are on the veerge of building a really good team with great young pitchers and a core of good players that only need an addition of a big bat, the owner says NOPE!!! Not gonna spend that kind of money!!!!
So the FIRE SALE starts all freakin over again!!!! Now we’ve watched this offseason as the team is dismantled once more!!!
1) Two young starting pitchers Cahill and Gonzalez have been traded
2) RP Breslow traded as part of the Cahill trade to Az
3) Sounds like our closer RP Bailey is now on the trading block
4) Last seasons starting outfield are now playing elsewhere
5) SP Harden probably won’t be back either (although injuries kept him out of the rotation all year)
Once again the Oakland A’s will start off the season with a roster filled with minor league players and
the AL West can refer to the Oakland Athletics as the Triple A’s!!!
You are Pathetic Mr.Wolff, so please do us all a big freakin favor and sell the club to someone who actually gives a damn about this team and baseball PLEASE!!!! You sir have taken a once proud and productive team into the depths of baseball hell and you need to remove yourself from this situation now before the MLB bigwigs merge our beloved Oakland Athletics out of existance!!!
You know this is the right thing to do so please sell the team to someone who actually likes baseball !!! Allow the team to move to Sacramento and play at an enlarged Raley Field. This would be a far more cost effective and do-able alternative than building some monstrosity stadium in San Jose… where the Giants and MLB have already said you are not allowed to relocate. The River-Cats can relocate into the Northbay, possibly Santa Rosa or back into Oakland as the new AAA Oakland Oaks!!!

by NorCalFaithful on Dec 24, 2011 6:37 AM PST reply actions  

Oh, I'm sorry, that's incorrect.

Thanks for playing though. As a consolation prize, you get the single-player version of Athletics Nation; a green and yellow notepad. You can use it to write down all your ideas in a place where no one else has to suffer through them. Good night, folks!

by LoneStranger on Dec 27, 2011 6:42 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Come on.... really? You are okay with another f#@*!&&g rebuilding year? WTF!?!?!?

Seriosly folks?? Many here are saying “yeah sure we should build a better team”.
For what?? So Wolff can have another fire sale in 2 years or next freakin year?
SCREW THAT IDEA COMPLETELY!!!!!
As Athletics fans we deserve better!!!
We have watched and waited for over a decade now and this club has had some quality players who were basically sold to the highest bidder for multiple double and triple A nobodies.
This team could have easily kept those good players and brought in the few FA’’s needed to add a power hitter and a #1 SP to put any of these teams, like last seasons team, into first place in the ALWest and a shot at the World Series!! That is still the target and the goal every year right? RIGHT? I would freakin hope that this is our goal every year!
Insteead Mr.Wolff seams to think that our Athletics are merely a way station for future MLB stars; just look at how many star players past and present, can trace thier roots back to the Athletics (Philadelphia, KC and Oakland)!!
Wolff has to either sell the team to someone who actually cares or he needs to open his wallet and spend some damn money to build a serious contender ASAP or the MLB execs will contract or merge our team out of existance due to non-profitability and fan apathy.

Also If the team were to move to Raley Field in Sacramento (home of the A’s AAA team now) you’d have a much better fan base to draw from since you have several major highways within a few miles of the stadium in a major metropolitan area that is also the state capital. This would make the team more accessable to both northbay and southbay fans and only be a half an hour from thier Oaktown roots.

I don’t live in the bay area anymore but I still try to get to at least one game a year, even though I now live over 300 miles from the bay area. Its harder to get to so many games per season with the expense of doing so in this crappy economy. But my kids and I still love our Athletics and we want to see them be successful so please Mr.Wolff sell this team or stop being Scrooge and build us a championship team!!!

by NorCalFaithful on Dec 24, 2011 7:07 AM PST reply actions  

Why would the A's move to Raley Field?

It’s a AAA ballpark that is neither capable now or via expansion of hosting MLB.

by athletics68 on Dec 28, 2011 11:22 PM PST up reply actions  

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