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2012 A's Outfield

My hunch is that Matsui will be back, and none of the team's other five free agents will. A theme of my writing here the past two years is that the A's are beholden to MLB more than any other team in the league until their stadium is sorted out. So if MLB wants them to travel to Japan to open the 2012 season, and re-sign their aging, unproductive DH for some good publicity, and sign all their draft picks to slot-level deals, and pick up the scraps of free agency (Ben Sheets, Brian Fuentes) to keep the ML payroll at $60M+ and placate the MLBPA, we can be sure those things will happen.

Unfortunately, the draft pick situation has soured a bit since my last post here on Aug. 16. Crisp and Matsui have definitely dropped below Type B status, and Dejesus' continued struggles make it unpalatable to offer him arb, unless he were to agree to decline an offer from the team. While it is possible Dejesus would agree to this, those types of handshake agreements are usually struck in a previous contract negotiation, or with a player who has years of tenure on the team and lots of goodwill built up. This is not the situation with Dejesus and the A's, so I don't think the team can risk the empty-handed arb offer and be faced with Dejesus returning for ~$6.5M.

This means that Willingham is the only A's free agent who will yield compensation picks in the 2011 draft. As a Type A, Willingham would yield two picks if he were to sign with other team. I actually think the team is encouraging this scenario, given their public 'woe is me' statements about the stadium situation. It's the perfect excuse, and much better than holding a press conference and announcing, "We would much rather have two high draft picks than to pay injury-prone 33-year-old J.W. on a 2-3 year deal in an obvious non-contending year." So, this hypothetical is assuming that the A's best hitter is gone.

There are currently 45 guys on the 40-man. If you decline wuertz's option, and let djj, crisp, Willingham, and Harden all walk, that's 40. But the outfield is painfully thin: Taylor, Sweeney, and Jai Miller are the only true outfielders remaining. However, Brandon Allen and Adrian Cardenas can play left field very capably, and I expect one or both guys to make the Opening Day roster. Matsui can play left in a pinch, and Carter can as well. What that list is missing is one more Cf candidate, since we can't rely on Sweeney and Jai Miller to play 162 games there. My vote would be to remove Sean Doolittle and Pedro Fugueroa from the 40-man roster, since both guys have burned two precious option years with injuries and are unlikely to contribute going forward. This team will already be carrying several injured pitchers on the 40-man over the offseason. You can absolutely justify that with Anderson, Braden, and Devine; with two lower-tier guys, I don't think you can.

With those last two roster slots, I'd like the team to protect Jermaine Mitchell from the upcoming Rule 5 draft, then stash him AAA to start the year as a guy who gets called up when the outfield inevitably suffers an injury. The last slot? I've got my eye on Jordan Danks of the White Sox, a good defensive center fielder who hasn't hit enough to break through. Danks is Rule 5 eligible this offseason, but the Sox haven't protected him yet, so there's a chance he remains freely acquirable in early Dec, in which case I hope the A's pounce. If the Sox do protect him, I would still like the A's to swing a deal from him, since he's the 6th guy on the Sox 2012 depth chart and would have a chance to be the A's starting cfer or 4th Of. Danks has just enough warts as a hitter to possibly be acquirable from the perennially win-now White Sox.

I like Anthony Gose of the Blue Jays more - probably everyone does - but I see three problems there: the Blue Jays are building for the future, we're unlikely to come out ahead in a trade with AA, and Gose is good enough that the return cost would be painful.

So, that's my update guess at the 2012 roster. No grandiose moves, mostly internal promotions, lots of wide-open competition in camp. $50Mish payroll, as the team braces for another year with the lowest attendance in the league. The glass-half empty view - a projected sixth straight season of no playoffs, with no end to that streak in sight. Half-full: this low-budget franchise has somehow avoided any 90-loss seasons since 1997. That streak will grow to 15 years next season, with a new stadium and increased revenue and competitiveness finally on the horizon.

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I think you have some really good thoughts here. But please use paragraphs. Otherwise, it is to hard to read. Regards.

by teengirlerin on Oct 1, 2011 10:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah, I typed it on the iPad, and that does some funny stuff with formatting, even when you Preview first. Should be fixed now.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 2, 2011 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Always love your contributions NSJ

I think the last press conference foreshadowed a major rebuild is in the works. The organization will be looking to be competitive and young in 2016 for the new San Jose stadium. Good reading: thanks for the post.

by hishnik on Oct 1, 2011 10:37 PM PDT reply actions  

I am so not excited at this prospect.
The organization will be looking to be competitive and young in 2016 for the new San Jose stadium.

A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz.
~Humphrey Bogart

by UncleLeo on Oct 2, 2011 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

It sucks huge ass, to be more frank.

It’s not like being successful in Oakland is going to hurt them. They don’t have to tear it all apart to have a chance at catching lightning in a bottle, which is the best that can be expected until we have real hitters. There’s still plenty enough pitching to try and make things work.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling this is going to be an underwhelming off-season

With the A’s recent penchant for grabbing players past their prime, think there’s any chance they take a look at J.D. Drew on a one year deal?

Probably wouldn’t be a good idea given how his offense has seriously declined the last two seasons and he’s about to be 36 years old, but it just kind of sounds like the type of move the A’s might consider. Prior to having a terrible, injury plagued 2011 he posted a 110 wRC+ and UZR still seems to think he plays a pretty good RF. Age, injury history, and trend lines would suggest Drew is a bad signing but if his price dips low enough the A’s might convince themselves into thinking he can bounce back.

by OkayJay81 on Oct 1, 2011 11:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Please

A’s, bring back Willingham and Coco. If not, then next year our outfield will be manned by a bunch of unproven rookies and a good bench player (Sweeney).

by Jason James on Oct 2, 2011 1:22 AM PDT reply actions  

Hmmm, what exactly is a "good bench player"?

Is that, a player who is good so long as they stay on the bench? Makes me think you’re right. At the very least, we need three unproven rookies, and no good bench players.

"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D

by paris7 on Oct 2, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

A "good bench player" is a player who is good

despite being left on the bench.

As a general rule, players play better when they get regular work. Pretty much any player will be better as a regular in the lineup than he would off the bench. The key is that that differential is greater for some players than it is for others. A guy with a small differential is a good bench player. (Unless he’s too good not to start every day, in which case he’s just a good player that you don’t want to waste on the bench.)

One of my pet theories is that one of the reasons the 2002 A’s team was so great was that in addition to the regular starters, it had three unusually good bench players (Greg Myers, Olmedo Saenz, and John Mabry).

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 4, 2011 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really like your explanation.

I feel almost guilty for getting such a nice reply to a throwaway, cheeky comment.

"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D

by paris7 on Oct 4, 2011 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Would you rather have Willingham and Coco and lose 85....

Or have a bunch of extra money to play with in a year or two on a big FA, find out if any rookies we have are going to make it big and lose 90?

I’d prefer the latter.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 2, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I prefer the best player available

Afterall, it’s not my money, and the A’s owners are some of the wealthiest in baseball. Biggest whiners as well.

by StewCrew on Oct 2, 2011 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I prefer the best player as well

But I’m not sure Willingham or Coco are going to be that in a year or so. And I’d much rather have a deep playoff run than a run of mediocrity.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 2, 2011 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed on Willingham.

I’m starting to feel like people are for a Willingham signing for the sole reason that he was the best hitter on the team this year. But, all of the hitters really sucked. He’s the Cadillac of minivans. That’s not a compliment.

And in the end he was pretty much a league average player this year. Do you really want to lock yourself in to paying a league average player who will turn 33 before next season full market rate for 3 or 4 years? No thanks.

I’m not one of the crowd that thinks Willingham is the worst defender ever, but can you imagine how bad he is going to be in the outfield in a couple of years? I could see his defense holding him back to being close to replacement level by the time he’s 35.

If the draft picks are there, take them. Take them without even thinking about it.

by thelincolndude on Oct 3, 2011 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree Completely

A’s fans love affair with Willingham is like my desperate friend that dated a fat chick with severe psychological issues. He should’ve just stayed single but it didn’t become clear until later. He is god awful defensively, injury-prone and will be entering his mid-30’s. But the power of the home run seems to overpower all critical thinking or long-term planning.
Let’s re-sign Willingham and Crisp so we can be mediocre instead of awful for the next few years? What’s the point? We’re better off sucking ass and taking the higher draft picks. Let them ALL walk and use the money on overslot draft picks and international signings. IMO this scenario also puts more pressure on MLB to act on the stadium as well..
Oh, and bringing back Matsui’s corpse would be sad and pathetic…What’s the point?
Too many pitchers are injured/injury-prone and the minor league system needs to be rebuilt. Is winning 75 games instead of 70 really that important?

Kiper+Fosse=Mute

by CorpseOfChavez on Oct 3, 2011 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your metaphor fails.

Here on AN we like fat chicks. Fat dudes, too.

Just so you know.

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 4, 2011 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

So you're saying Willingham is an Escalade?

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 4, 2011 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

It doesn't make sense to spend money on good but injury prone players.

The A’s probably are still going to suck, even if they have Willingham and Crisp. Hey, they did this year. To win we are going to need our young players to step up and play well in combination with older players to fill the gaps. I don’t see our younger players being that great next year.

by Seb on Oct 2, 2011 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think an A's team with Willingham and Crisp is predestined to lose 85.

They certainly could, but Weeks should get better (than a .762 OPS from your 2B, which is damn good), Allen might, and Sizemore might develop tolerability. The A’s offense isn’t completely hopeless, even if it mostly is.

If they managed even a league average offense, and combined that with what I view as an anomaly this year defensively (though they weakened themselves with the pro-offense roster moves), I bet they could compete for a playoff spot. They can still pitch.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Would DeJesus accept arbitration?

As a type B a signing team wouldn’t lose a pick so his value isn’t effected. He has been very poor this year and I wonder whether he would decline arbitration to sign a one year deal somewhere more favourable to hitters to rebuild his value. I think it would be worth the risk.

by DeJay on Oct 2, 2011 6:58 AM PDT reply actions  

And even if he does accept

he is not terrible and won’t be a liability

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't he one of the types of players we should be considering?

Someone coming off his worst career season, yet has lots of upside?

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Oct 5, 2011 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would think so

especially when overtaking the Angels and Rangers is nigh impossible next year

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

But his butt is rather small, too

2011 Oakland Athletics: We have Cy Young pitchers and make yours look like it, too

by elcroata on Oct 6, 2011 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I meant in compared to his bad 2011 season.

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Oct 6, 2011 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

DDJ can't possibly be that bad again

So, I don’t see a huge risk (other than the opportunity cost of playing Taylor or Mitchell everyday). Plus, think about this worst-case scenario: none of the potential FAs re-sign, Sweeney is injured, one of Mitchell, Cardenas, Allen or Miller is so bad they’re not worth keeping on the roster. Allen-Miller-Cardenas (or something like that), would be awfully bad and not even really high-upside bad.

I think we offer him arb and know we have a capable CF for next year at least.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Oct 2, 2011 8:58 AM PDT reply actions  

His Collapse Was Crazy

He had never hit below .281 before, and had been regarded as a good guy near the top of the order who got on base and had a high OBP. Last year, he was a big attraction at the trade deadline.

by Jason James on Oct 2, 2011 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can live with another year of DDJ. Can't he make some off-season adjustment?

More interesting is this whole re-signing Matsui thing. And, the fact that he was not at all inept in LF, which surprised me. I thought, from what I read, that he was Custian in awfulness, but he seemed rather to play quite competently. How many games he can actually play out there is an open question, but we should expect him to be the 5th OF, right?

"A man makes a bad decision and he's an idiot for a day / teach a man to make bad decisions and he’s an idiot for life." - B-E-D

by paris7 on Oct 2, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he is re-signed, I expect to see him out there twice a week

Which I think he can handle.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Oct 4, 2011 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

He wasn't a big attraction.

The Pirates wanted him. Read that again for effect.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great writeup as always, NSJ!

Didn’t Jermaine Mitchell just have a knee surgery or something? I saw some passing reference to that, but can’t remember where (Beane quoted in the Chronicle, maybe?).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 2, 2011 11:18 AM PDT reply actions  

I offer arb to DDJ

He was the guy I thought was going to be the best of the hitters we added over the offseason. He can’t have lost the entirety of his talent, can he?

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 2, 2011 5:05 PM PDT reply actions  

So do I

I think he will be eager to leave Oakland and take less somewhere to rebuild his value. If he accepts the odds are he will improve.

by gambler on Oct 2, 2011 7:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, we could actually use him because of our lack of CF options.

He should hopefully rebound at least somewhat. He could actually be a decent outfielder again.

by Seb on Oct 2, 2011 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice write up!

I wouldn’t mind re-acquiring Corey Brown. His average was terrible, but his BB and XBH were pretty good and he struck out a lot, but not as much as Danks. I doubt he’d cost much.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 2, 2011 6:44 PM PDT reply actions  

I think that's really part of your master plan to reacquire HRod

Where you been, WC? Haven’t seen you around, man.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Oct 2, 2011 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hee...Ya I've been delinquent in my posting regularity.

I just couldn’t find much about the current team that interested me enough to post about it.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 3, 2011 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would absolutely offer arb to Dejesus

Worst case scenario is you’re down 6.5 million and you’ve got a guy coming off a season in which he posted the worst BABIP of his career and still was able to produce 2.2 WAR. If he declines, you’ve got yourself a sandwich!

by Jack_S on Oct 2, 2011 7:21 PM PDT reply actions  

Good bet he declines

To rebuild his reputation on a winning team. But I think Carter and Taylor need an extended look somewhere in the lineup. We need to make a decision on Taylor, as Green and Choice are coming up soon.

by StewCrew on Oct 2, 2011 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

he did play at the lower end of his projection

but ther is no evidence he would decline

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

What kind of sandwich?

Because I don’t like tuna…

"Even if the plane is on autopilot, I don't want a monkey in the cockpit" - ilikeike

by pfeifer on Oct 3, 2011 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

in the last press conferance

Beane pretty much wished DDJ lucky with his next team. I don’t think he will even be offered Arb.

by hishnik on Oct 3, 2011 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

This giants blog discusses the cf market

I wouldnt be against a sweeney and miller platoon in CF. Maybe bring in Nate Mclouth for heap veteran depth. He was a very productive played through 2009.
I think they’ll giver Taylor every chance this spring to earn a spot.
MILB FA market- milledge, pie are forner top prospects that could be serviceable 4th OF types.
Trades- Allen Craig went to Cal, how motivated would STL be willing to deal him Age 27 not alot of upside, but righthanded power. Logan Morrison FLA- has had drama with the marlins front office

by J.J. Miller on Oct 3, 2011 11:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Nate McLouth

That ship has sailed, man. A LoMo trade would be a best-case scenario, but I don’t think they’re that dumb.

"I'll guarantee this: The A's will have a better season in 2012." - George Zimmer

by cuppingmaster on Oct 4, 2011 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I missed what Beane said about DDJ, but I would still offer him arb

Even at 6.5 mil, he’s offering some value and his was one of the few defensive bright spots this season.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Oct 3, 2011 3:27 PM PDT reply actions  

If we are going to count on DDJ for his plus defense

I think we need to remember that he is a good defensive RF’er, but just below average CF’er. This year’s numbers support this (10.1 UZR in RF, -2.6 UZR in CF) along with his career numbers (8.1 UZR RF, -4.4 UZR CF). I’m not sure if his bat plays well enough in CF to offset his defensive woes there, but it’s something to keep in mind, especially if we don’t think his bat will rebound.

by sc00by on Oct 3, 2011 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't worry about his UZR stats in CF

More of if he can handle it for the majority of the season and not take away ABs from Taylor in right. Tendering him a contract next year would be purely about getting an asset to trade in July.

by Furyan on Oct 4, 2011 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hate DJJ's arm.

I hate Crisp’s too, but I feel like Crisp makes up for it with better speed and routes/range.

I probably overvalue arm strength in an outfielder, I’m aware of that bias, but man it bothers me seeing DJJ get hit a ball in right field and short arm a lolly-pop in to the infield on a play where a Francoeuer/Ankiel, or even Ryan Sweeney, might get an assist.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 4, 2011 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

DDJ was 11.9 Range Runs above average this year

His arm admittedly sucks, but my impression both by the numbers and by my limited eye test is that his routes/range is well above average for a right fielder. Given that range is a lot more important than arm, I still think he’s good.

OTOH, since there’s no way we’re contending next year anyway, we might as well give Taylor every chance to succeed.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Oct 4, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Willingham needs to be resigned.

And thinking Carter is a capable outfield option i think is a big stretch. A guy who can’t hit and can’t field in left (he really shouldn’t ever leave the infield) doesn’t seem like a good combination. I’m not completely done with Carter, but until he proves otherwise, we can’t expect much out of him. The team has to sign someone, whether it’s a free agent or a resigning, to fill the outfield.

"Caring about stuff binds us to the other people that care about stuff, and that creates the communities that makes life worth living."

by thewhizkid on Oct 3, 2011 4:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Don't sign Willingham simply because Carter can't field left.

If Carter makes the team, Allen would just shift to LF. He should be better defensively than Willingham was. If any position needs a signing, it’s CF. Sweeney can’t handle it the entire year (knees), Mitchell had knee surgery and isn’t ready for the leap, and I doubt they’ll even consider Green unless they have absolutely no other choice (or no other Choice. Wouldn’t that be a shocker?). They’ll either have to resign Crisp or DeJesus (while crossing their fingers) or trade for a passable CF. Or you can drift into fantasy land, where the Indians decline Sizemore’s option, the A’s pick him up, he hits .270/.370/.500 with 25 bombs, the A’s flip him and the other Sizemore somewhere, get some kind of Sizemore-squared bonus prospect, and ………. ……..World Series Champs!

by Furyan on Oct 4, 2011 2:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Completely forgot about Miller

I wouldn’t want to hand him the starting job, but apparently he “made an impression” during his callup, so I guess we’ll see. There is obviously no way he can keep up last years numbers, and I have no idea what to expect from him defensively.

by Furyan on Oct 4, 2011 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Miller is outstanding defensively.

That’s one thing I’m not worried about. His offense would conceivably be replacement level. But I wouldn’t be concerned about him from a defensive standpoint. He has a great arm, too.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 4, 2011 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

also it would be kinda fun to see a guy whiff 250 times in a year

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Oct 4, 2011 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well good!

With our OF/1B/DH options (Miller, Carter, Allen, Kila, Taylor) we might see some kind of season SO record.

by Furyan on Oct 4, 2011 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we gave Jack Cust a chance

it’s completely beyond me why we wouldn’t give Jai Miller one. Yes, Cust hit the ball better in the minors, but Miller actually has some utility outside of the batter’s box.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Carter/Taylor infielding

Neither Carter…..nor Taylor can field. My neck cringed multiple times watching them in Sac.

by dingerdog1 on Oct 10, 2011 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

DJDJ and Willingham had the same WAR

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm developing a hatred of that stat

If we fully acknowledge that we aren’t as good at measuring defense as we should be, yet, why the hell would we place such great emphasis on a stat that considers it so strongly?

I want the A’s to field their position players based solely on wOBA, and only verify that they are capable of walking before assigning them a glove somewhere in the infield and/or outfield.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Should clarify

I meant walking strictly in the ambulatory sense of the word.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

So because you don't think it's that easy to measure defense, you wanna ignore it completely?

That’s even more illogical than using the data that you’ve got.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Oct 12, 2011 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think using bad data is probably not as good as using your eye

Frankly, defense is pretty easy to gauge with the eye test. We didn’t need UZR to tell us coco is good, bourjos is great, penny has a great arm, good range, and a bad glove, etc.

The one good thing about WAR is it gives us a number to answer the question when comparing two players, is the better defense I get from player A worth what I’m giving up at the plate?

If we just go by wOBA and then evaluate defense on the eye test, we have to make a judgment call, which is less comfortable than a number just giving it to us, but if that number is wrong, I would rather let the GM make that judgment.

by Billy Frijoles on Oct 12, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not a question of "bad" data so much as "bad" methodology.

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 12, 2011 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Throwing in my 2 cents...

Don’t be afraid to offer DDJ arbitration. Sure, $6.5 million is probably going to be the highest 1 year offer he sees, but he needs a big rebound season if he has any hopes of landing a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract after 2012 and hitters DON’T go to Oakland to post big offensive numbers.

And an alternative trade option (one who’s both able and relatively affordable) is Cincy back-up OF David Sappelt. CF speed and range with a RF arm. Not a ton of HR power and doesn’t draw a lot of walks, but he’s a contact hitter who murders LH pitching. .355 in AAA this year and .410 in 2010.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 3, 2011 10:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Is Sappelt any better than Miller?

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 4, 2011 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Miller has too much swing and miss in his bat

I believe Sappelt can be, if nothing else, a platoon CF in combination with Mitchell (for starters).

I haven’t looked at Miller platoon splits over the course of his minor league career in a while, but Sappelt has worn out lefties in the upper minors for two years running.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 4, 2011 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts.

What do you think of Danks?

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 4, 2011 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Danks is trying to hit for power he doesn't have, which leads to too many K's

But as a Rule 5 pick, there’s little risk involved.

The only players the A’s have to add to the 40 man roster (IMO) is Mitchell; which seems a lock after his break-out season. The 40 man is getting a little tight with KK, (presumably) Mitchell and adding Danks but I think you could make it work.

The question is… do you want to tinker with the 40 man to find room for Danks or make big waves to the 40 man and add Danks in the aftermath?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 4, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting footnote...

AFL started today, with Gose in RF and Choice in CF.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Oct 4, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

DDJ

Can we afford to “see” if he will have a rebound season. I just hope he’s not one of these players…..(Matt Holliday), that doesn’t really want to play in Oakland, and his stats show.

by dingerdog1 on Oct 10, 2011 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

.368 wOBA 125 WRC+ meh fuck it whatever so fucking sick of this bullshit meme

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Oct 10, 2011 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

He smilez tuu much!!

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Oct 11, 2011 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holliday did not smile enough.

Josh smiles just right.

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 11, 2011 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Especially after he hits....

Dingerz!

"Trying not to rec a "F**k the Giants" post is like trying not to look at boobs."

by Tutu-late on Oct 11, 2011 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

See above post.

Willingham hits baseballs. Or otherwise does things with them that makes runs. DeJesus, not so much, at least last year. Make Willingham the DH if you’re so enamored of WAR.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Oct 11, 2011 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are turning

a critique of the measurement of defense into an argument that defense doesn’t matter at all. Which frankly happens all too often.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 12, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

A recent Beane press conference has been mentioned

a few times in this thread. I’ve been out of the loop and I missed that. Can someone link me to a summary?

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 4, 2011 2:17 AM PDT reply actions  

thanks

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 4, 2011 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

one Beane's major points in Moneyball

was that nothing sells tickets like winning.

spending the money to re-sign willingham will at least partially pay for itself with higher ticket sales.

Win or lose, we'll always be there for you.

by johnjahafanclub on Oct 5, 2011 11:38 AM PDT reply actions  

they really packed them in this year

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

winning 73 games instead of 70 will really make the fans flock to the Coli…

Kiper+Fosse=Mute

by CorpseOfChavez on Oct 5, 2011 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't removing dolittle be a no brainer

since he isn’t a batter anymore?

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 5, 2011 1:22 PM PDT reply actions  

His only way of staying on is if he looks intriguing in the AFL.

If he’s healthy and throwing 92 from the left side, they won’t remove him.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 5, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is throwing 92 from the left side really all that rare? David Purcey can do that in his sleep

yet is having trouble finding a job.

I vibrated with joy that join A's. -- Kim Seong-min

by WaddellCanseco on Oct 5, 2011 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

true.

But my point is that Doolittle’s conversion into a pitcher actually INCREASES his chances of remaining on the 40-man.

As a 1b/DH, he’d be like 6th on the org depth chart. (Carter/Barton/Matsui/Allen/etc.)

As an RP, well, we always end up needing 10-11 of those to get through a season.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 6, 2011 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

And Kia, forgot him

Doolittle would be behind Carter/Barton/Allen/KiaKahlua/Matsui at 1b/DH.

My assumption is that, post surgery, Doolittle isn’t a corner OF option anymore and that’s part of why they’re converting him to P.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 6, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

In the interests of accuracy

Cleveland had the lowest home attendance in 2010, and Tampa Bay had the lowest overall attendance in 2011.

by OaklandSi on Oct 8, 2011 6:33 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Of course it's hard to know,

when we hear our attendance announced at 14,000 and can see there are about 5,000 people there. The term “attendance” has become very inaccurate. If they mean “tickets sold” they should call it that; if they mean people attending, they should announce how many people came through the turnstiles.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 9, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was just going by official numbers

which is true of all of the teams, not only the A’s.

I saw plenty of games on TV in Cleveland, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, and Toronto where the attendance looked as bad or worse than some of the A’s games.

by OaklandSi on Oct 9, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

But Oakland did have the lowest home attendance this year.

According to espn figures. That’s where I typically get it from.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 9, 2011 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Then again, the only two teams that played were reportedly the Yankees and Red Sox

so it’s a little hard to tell.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 9, 2011 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

although home attendance was up a fair amount from last year

and would likely have not been the lowest in MLB this year had it not been for the gross underachievement of the team, and even so those just ahead were barely ahead.

by OaklandSi on Oct 10, 2011 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Crisp isn't a Type B?

Really? Even being among the league leaders in SB’s for a couple of years? I thought they considered stats like that.

by oakballnack on Oct 12, 2011 9:40 AM PDT reply actions  

Per Keith Law, via MLBTradeRumors

The stats they use for 1B/OF/DH is PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI. In other words, nothing that Coco particularly has excelled in for the last two years.

Link

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Oct 12, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

and AVG

and replace dingerzzz by TB, or just use SLG. It’s ridiculous that 2b and 3b count the same as 1b, in terms of just contributing to AVG.

Don't you realise you'll find next monday or next Tuesday/Your golden shoes day

by PDXAthleticsfan on Oct 12, 2011 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Swisher

The Yankees may not pick up his option, apparently possibly going after Beltran instead (really?!?!?) It would be bonehead move on their part, but maybe Swish could be lured back to his old stomps for a 2 year deal. He could likely be had for cheaper than Willingham, and he’s more reliable, health wise, and offers similar if not better offensive production while contributing more defensively.

by oakballnack on Oct 12, 2011 10:00 AM PDT reply actions  

If Swisher is on the market that will make it interesting.

Right now the OF market is looking pretty thin, with Crisp, DDJ, and Willingham at or near the top. Swisher would liven that up a bit. I would LOVE to have him back, as I think all A’s fans would.

by Billy Frijoles on Oct 12, 2011 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah but plenty of other teams will outbid us.

Official Athletics Nation Rotating Tagline Editor - Pam liked my old sig better.
My thoughtful watermelon is easily mistook for an early American catapult.
DURRRR THEY’RE TOO OLD, BABIP IS TOO HIGH, TOO MANY Ks, DURRRRRR

by mikev on Oct 12, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Swisher = want

I don’t care how good he is at baseball now. I just want him because he’s Swish.

Being wrong about something you’ve worked on is a blessing, not a curse, and people are so invested in being right that that gets lost. —Graham MacAree

by iglew on Oct 12, 2011 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm concerned that DJJ's drop in BABIP in 2011 isn't a fluke,

but is instead a function of making worse contact.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 12, 2011 7:25 PM PDT reply actions  

I thought he made an awful lot of hard hit outs (along with too many bad ABs),

enough to suggest he really did hit in worse-than-average luck in 2011. I expect him to rebound nicely for someone else, a la Johnny Damon.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 12, 2011 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

so he will be a red sock?

We yet enjoy little to be envied, but endure much to be pitied.-Thomas Dudley

by Future Ed on Oct 12, 2011 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know fangraphs batted ball data isn't the final word on this...

DDJ Stats Here

…but it really does agree with Nico’s point.

- LD% flat year over year
- ISO up
- K% up
- Infield FB up
- BAPIP way down (.355 vs .274)

by echerrst on Oct 13, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Eh...

Highest flyball percentage of his career in 2011. Lowest ground ball percentage. So we have a guy who has never hit more than 13 homers in a season in his career who starts hitting more flyballs – willie mays hays. And his infield fly percentage went up, which the worst type of ball in play type.

I think it’s inconclusive whether or not he was unlucky.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 13, 2011 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Suggests to me he was both

The pop-ups being evidence of worse hitting, and the added fly outs often being well hit balls that didn’t elude OFers due to bad luck.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 13, 2011 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

His BABIP on GB and FB was way down.

LD% 20.2, career 20.9
BABIP on LD .761, career .723
On LD he seems to have made better contact.

FB% 37.0, career 32.9
IFFB% 10.0, career 9.3
BABIP on FB .100, career .147
In comparison to his career average the popup rate is only slightly up and it doesn’t make a lot of difference on his expectet BABIP for FB. So a lot less outfield flies were falling for hits. I don’t know if more loft on his batted balls can be attributed to a lot more easy fly outs.

GB% 42.7, career 46.2
BABIP on GB .173, career .242
Thats really a ridiculously low average on grounders. And than for a guy who has pretty solid speed – +11 UZR range runs, +2.7 baserunning runs, average speed score. For a guy with good linedrive rates, it makes – in my opinion – no sense to hit so much more soft dribblers right at defenders than normal.

Conclusion:
If we call it bad luck or soft contact, what remains is that his BABIP should be quite a bit better next year. His career BABIP is .316, more than 40 points higher than in 2011. I would expect him to fall somewhere between career and league average next year, which would be around 30 points better.

by Rio on Oct 15, 2011 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he was making soft contact, his BABIP shouldn't be better next year.

If he had “bad luck,” which is possible, then his BABIP should be better next year.

A lot of people want to just dismiss bad contact. If any of us were in MLB, we’d have an incredibly shitty BABIP. And it wouldn’t regress to the league-average mean the following year, because we’d still be shitty at hitting.

There is a chance that David Dejesus, soon to be 32 years old, is starting to become shitty at hitting. There’s also a chance that improved defensive data has revealed that he has a very consistent spray chart, and defenses are playing him better. This could especially be true versus left-handed pitching. When lefty pitchers face lefty hitters, the batted-ball outcome is different than against righty pitchers. As defensive data and the utilization of that data proliferates, such information would start to show on the field, as it perhaps did for DJJ this past season. This could be a partial explanation for his struggles against left-handed pitching.

Either of those two possibilities could be reasons for his low BABIP in 2011.

I do not doubt that his BABIP could improve in 2012. I personally do not think he will hit much better than he did this year IF he re-signs in Oakland, which is why I think offering him arb and paying him $6.5M is not something the team will do, nor should they. If he signs in a better hitter’s park or in the NL, I do think he will hit better, but that wouldn’t really prove either side’s point, because it would be an imperfect comparison of data.

Outside of this particular debate, I do think that, in general, too many sabermetric fans think that a guy will improve the following year simply because he had a low BABIP the previous year. Sometimes, that low BABIP is telling us something relevant, and it’s not just noise/luck.

The Oakland A's: If you have a no-trade clause in your contract, we're in it.

14 straight seasons with at least 74 wins (1998-2011). We haven't lost 90+ games in a season since 1997. Not bad on a shoestring budget.

by notsellingjeans on Oct 15, 2011 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

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