SB Nation Bay Area Editor's Pick
How Much Does Bench Depth Really Matter?
Jake Fox, Eric Patterson, Akinori Iwamura, Jeremy Hermida, Matt Watson, Matt Carson, Jeff Larish, Eric Chavez, Travis Buck, Gabe Gross...
If you're anything like me, reading this list of names just made you cringe--or throw up in your mouth. What do these players have in common? Other than the fact that none of them have yet nailed down a spot on a major league roster this year, they were all bench type players for the Oakland A's last year. Also, they all have relatively zero chance to play on the A's this year (please no more Matts). And with the exception of Gross, none of these players spent much time on the 25-man roster.
Though it doesn't seem like they played enough to make much of a difference, collectively they had 917--yes, 917--plate appearances with the A's last year. Together they hit a pitiful .208 with a .268 on-base-percentage. To make matters worse, most of their at bats came at prime hitting positions: corner outfield and designated hitter.
To put this in perspective, 15% of the A's 2010 plate appearances went to one of these players. Nearly 6 at bats per game went to a player collectively averaging .208 with a .268 OBP. Shameful.
Now that they're gone, what does this mean for our 2011 A's?
Take a jump for the good news.
Five of the ten players listed earlier started the 2010 season on the 25-man roster. The good news is they're gone. We could say that: Buck is replaced by Crisp, Chavez is replace by Willingham, Gross is replaced by Dejesus, Fox is replaced by Powell, and Patterson is replaced by Matsui.Musical chairs is rarely good for a team. In 2010, the A's had 25 players who saw at least 30 plate appearances. That's 2 more players than any other AL team. Exactly half of the AL teams had 19 or fewer of these players. The Angels were the worst club in that group, and they were only 1 game below .500. Of the other half--the A's group--only 2 teams had more wins than losses.
The A's are set up for offensive improvement this year, not just because the outfield is improved, but because the bench is much more stable. We would need to have even more injuries than normal (normal for the A's) to call for so many replacements.
Let's try to crudely project how the A's will hit in 2011 with these additions.
Our three new additions (Willingham, Dejesus, and Matsui) collectivey had a very productive year last season--despite injuries--combining for 1403 plate appearances and batting .285 with a .382 OBP
Last year the A's as a team hit .256 with a .324 OBP--9th in the AL in both categories.
However, if you take out those 917 awful plate appearances, the numbers rise to a .265 AVG with a .335 OBP--jumping up to 8th and 5th respectively in the AL.
Now to even out plate appearances I need to make some assumptions. And like I said, this is just a crude projection. We can even consider this to be a projection of how the A's would have performed offensively last year, with the current club.
-I will assume all players will repeat last year's performance. More had down years than positive years, so it's fair to say we can expect last year to be similar to this year.
-I will assume all players will receive the same number of plate appearances as they did last year. Some who were healthy last year will miss time this year, and some who missed a lot of time will be healthier this year. I am no psychic.
While losing the junk pile's 917 PA's, we are also losing Davis' and Cust's 986 PA's. After adding in our new players, we are exactly 500 PA's short. I will add these in from the 2010 A's numbers, which still include the four projected backups, and AAA depth like Carter and Donaldson.
While I dare not speculate on how much this would improve our record, the impact on offense is encouraging to say the least. I must say one more time, this is merely a crude projection based on last year's numbers (which by the way weren't great). This is to be taken with a grain of salt (and maybe a shot of tequila). However, since the projection was based on numbers that weren't very impressive in the first place, I don't see why they won't be as accurate as any other projection.
After removing the 917 garbage PA's, removing Cust and Davis, adding Willingham, DeJesus, and Matsui, and adjusting PA's accordingly, the changes were refreshing.
My 2011 A's offensive projection: .270 AVG, .346 OBP--vaulting the A's to 4th and 2nd, respectively in the AL. I also came up with 125 home runs for the year, though my instinct says we'll get about 10 more than that.
If you were planning on the A's shooting blanks again this year, then I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Please do not shoot the messenger, but crude math does not lie...or does it?
63 comments
|
8 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Nice job!!! (rec'd)
I literally had my stomach turn over reading those bench players that played for the A’s last year.
I’m just praying Willingham doesn’t have a really long Matt Holliday tranistion hangover going from the (N.L.) to the (A.L.)
Every man for himself...
Some thoughts regarding your headline question
First thing first: nice work, rec’d
In 2010 our designated starting lineup* was on the field for 76% of the PAs. Or every fourth PA has gone to a backup (about 1500 PA).
(asterisk) Designated lineup: Suzuki, Barton, Ellis, Penny, Kouz, Davis, Sweeney, Crisp, Cust/Chavy
I have thrown Chavy and Cust together since Cust was available at the start of the season and replaced Chavy after his injury. In the outfield I have taken Davis over Buck.
Lets take a look at how deep we had gone down on the depth chart:
Catcher: Fox could and should have been replaced by Powell at the start of the season. With Donaldson we were down to Backup #2 (position needed to be 3 deep).
Infield: Sogard was not more than a September call-up. Iwamura and Larish were flyers after the season was practically over and could have been replaced with the available Rosales and Tolleson (at least as far as I remeber). So with Rosales and Tolleson we were down to Backup #2 (infield needed 6 players).
Outfield: Patterson was more or less replaced by the Jackson trade. Hermida was a flyer after the season was practially over. That leaves us with Buck, Patterson/Jackson, Gross, Carson, Watson, Carter down to Backup #6 (outfield needed 9 players).
To sum it up. The bench consisted of 2 catchers, 2 infielders and 6 outfielders. For 2011 the catcher and infield backup depth looks ok. Powell, Donaldson, Rosales, Sogard and if a third infielder is needed Tolleson (if he goes through wavers) or Cardenas are available on the bench/Minors. In the outfield I think that 5 backups can possibly be enough. Sweeney, Jackson are good as Backup #1 and #2. After that it goes down fast. Carson, Carter and Taylor (if he can rebound from last season) are the next available backups. That looks a little thin.
The last thought is how the bench produced. All backups (inclusive flyers and according to my designated starting lineup) have accmulated a whopping -0.6 WAR. With the better players at the front of the bench (Sweeney, Jackson) we can hope to get more help there in 2011.
i agree
besides despite all the negative feelings on the board i am optimistic that we can have a hadescent offense and the depth is much better then we have had in a long time. with a average offense and above average pitching we are easily 3 or 4 wins better and with a little luck sprinkled in i think we can win between 88-90 wins
by Chris Schlitz on Jan 24, 2011 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
I had ZERO idea that many at bats were awarded to that cast of misfits
Recc’d! Nice work!
I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.
Good work.
I, on the other hand, remembered quite well how many garbage players took garbage AB’s last year, which is one of the reasons why I’m so bullish on the A’s next year.
Bob Geren was born in a suburban apartment complex he built with his own two hands.
by QueenOfCansAndJars on Jan 24, 2011 9:30 AM PST reply actions
you really need to work on your selective amnesia
Makes being an A’s fan so much easier
I have abandonment issues. Thanks Lew.
by OptimistPrime on Jan 24, 2011 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
I'm an A's fan?
I didn’t even know I LIKED baseketball?
Bob Geren was born in a suburban apartment complex he built with his own two hands.
by QueenOfCansAndJars on Jan 24, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Being nitpicky
Crisp was replaced by Crisp. Rajai Davis was replaced by DeJesus. Chavez was replaced by Cust who was replaced by Matsui. Fox was indeed replaced by Powell. Patterson is replaced by…Sweeney?
The fact of the matter is that we had to go this deep for injury reasons and because of Beane’s intuition. Patterson, Chavez, and Fox were all guys that Beane went after and gave at-bats to because he thought they were major league caliber. Out of the rest of that list, I believe only Gross and Iwamura weren’t on 25 man rosters to begin with, and those two posted career lows in just about every category; its hard to predict that from two 31 year olds. If we go deep this year for the rest of the guys on this list, if we go by the 2 catcher/2 IF/6 OF outlined above, we’re left with Donaldson/Recker/Cardenas/Sogard (assuming Rosales and Pennington come back and Sogard is relegated to backup duty)/Sweeney/Jackson/Carter/Taylor/Miller/Weeks (I guess.) Toss whatever sub-replacement level player in there you think Beane will take a flier on. This group (going solely by eyeballing it) inspires about as much confidence for me as last year’s did, personally. Take that as you will.
by Rebuilding Season on Jan 24, 2011 9:36 AM PST reply actions
The guys who I said were replaced all started the 2010 season on the 25-man roster.
Crisp and Cust did not. At that point I was only comparing 2011’s projected roster to that of 2010. Don’t know why I didn’t mention Davis there. Must have forgot about him.
Crisp only didn't because of injury, which may very well happen again.
Cust, well, Cust is Cust. Pick your favorite reason why he didn’t start; I don’t want to derail into a Cust thread.
Its all nitpicky of course; you did good work.
by Rebuilding Season on Jan 24, 2011 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Well done, chris.
One thing: this bench problem isn’t exactly native only to Oakland. In fact, the A’s were the best in the division at producing the least amount of negative WAR.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/negative-war-2010-team-data/
That said, there’s still definitely room for improvement.
by danmerqury on Jan 24, 2011 10:01 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
Yeah, there is room to improve. Based on that chart, it looks like the A’s are still 7th worst in MLB in hitter’s negative WAR.
But I thought that was the whole point of your post?
The A’s already have improved. Unless the A’s get all the injuries that are cosmically destined for Texas next year (knocks on fingers, crosses wood), the bench is going to be a huge strength.
Bob Geren was born in a suburban apartment complex he built with his own two hands.
by QueenOfCansAndJars on Jan 24, 2011 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, that was my point.
That we were pretty damn bad in that department last year, and it appears we have greatly improved this year.
I find it interesting that the Padres and Reds are at the bottom of that list
Two teams that greatly exceeded expectations. It would seem that if you do not have the budget/expectations of the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies etc., then your best bet for competing might be to have as few terrible players as possible. It also appears to have worked well for the Rays, Rockies, Giants and Twins. Luck with injuries plays a large part in this and that is where having capable backups comes in.
The 2011 A’s would seem to be following this model and I am happy to see it. We project to have significantly positive WAR from every starter and from most all of the pitchers. We may even get some positive production from the bench.
Time will tell if our 5th starter situation and faith in Conor Jackson are our undoing…
So the Mariners are a good bet to improve?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
I was going to ask O.P. if we're worse than others, but
this says we’re in the middle.
by MobiusKlein on Jan 24, 2011 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Not sure any of us has faith in Conor Jackson
Unless we’re talking about the AN Hotties contest. My hope is that Jackson’s duties don’t far exceed being eye-candy for a between-innings dugout pan. I’d take Chris Carter’s AB’s over his any day.
Also, I totally agree with what you said about not having terrible players. If no hitter is a rally killer and no pitcher is a blowup artist, it makes you feel like you’re team has a chance to win everyday.
These clothes are good enough to drink in, and so be these boots, too.
Somebody here likes Conor Jackson.
I’m not sure if it’s me, but somebody here has to like him.
Bob Geren was born in a suburban apartment complex he built with his own two hands.
by QueenOfCansAndJars on Jan 24, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
<raises hand>
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Conor Jackson has potential...
I say with with a huge grain of salt, but.. he isn’t that old, he isn’t that far removed from some decent years in Arizona. I like him frankly as a backup. Now, as a starter, thats a different story…
Visit my blog the Todd Van Poppel Rookie Card Retirement Plan!!
I'd be on board if he played good defense
instead of bad defense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Third-string players 2010 vs 2011
C – Fox and Donaldson (even)
1B – Fox and Carter (Edge Carter)
2B – Tolleson and Sogard (Even)
SS – Tolleson and Horton (Edge Tolleson)
3B – Tolleson and Cardenas (Edge Tolleson)
LF – Watson and Carter (Edge Carter)
CF – Carson and Carson (Even)
RF – Carson and Carter (Edge Carter)
DH – Patterson and Carter (Edge Carter)
The emergency fill-in in 2011 is most likely to be Carter, who should be better than Watson, Carson, Patterson and Fox were last year, but he might not be. He was actually terrible in 2010, and I’m projecting some hefty improvement here.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
Did Tolleson clear waivers?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Rotoworld sidebar blurb
says Tolleson in Sacramento now. So that means he cleared, right?
Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; / Our meddling intellect
Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— / We murder to dissect.
Losing Tolleson
Does make the 3rd string infield situation look worse. Let’s wait and see what is done there. He may clear waivers or we may replace him with someone equally capable.
But at least our first string and 2nd string players are better. Your list has two guys that got significant non-injury related playing time last year (Fox and Patterson) and compares them with guys not even expected to make the 25 man roster this year.
Isn't he replaced by LaRoche, though?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm saying LaRoche
Maybe he can’t play SS (I don’t know that much about his college / low minors past) but I’d be surprised if he wasn’t a SS before.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think I'd rather have Horton than LaRoche if it's for any length of time
But really the answer is None of the Above
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 9:26 PM PST up reply actions
grant green might figure in there by the end of the year too
but at this point were talking about the 5th, 6th, and 7th shortstops on the depth chart – the solutions arent going to look very good.
Yeah I'm just talking about April,
in the event both Pennington and Rosales are not ready to go.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sogard doesn't really play SS either
He’s mainly a 2B, and defense reports of him at 2B are…mixed at best.
by Rebuilding Season on Jan 24, 2011 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
I recently changed my mind on him.
I wanted more of an impact bat along the lines of an Andruw Jones (who by the way is cheaper too). Jackson has value because if he is healthy, his upside is that of a productive starting outfielder.
Next time
put a warning before you put up a list of players like that
"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10
hell hath no fury like a Cowboys fan scorned. -Leopold Bloom
Did you cry?
I cried…
last year…
while they ran out grounders…
Bob Geren was born in a suburban apartment complex he built with his own two hands.
by QueenOfCansAndJars on Jan 24, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Yes. Yes I did.
Especially reading Akinor…Ah too painful
"You ain't got nothin to say, it was perfect" -Dallas Braden, 05/09/10
hell hath no fury like a Cowboys fan scorned. -Leopold Bloom
Nice work
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 12:43 PM PST reply actions
Nice work...
But if you’re going to take out the 917 PAs and then reinsert the new number into the rankings… you have to take out the bench PAs from every team. I suspect the movement would not have been that much.
I’ve argued in other threads that I’d rather have the A’s spend more money on the starting lineup to get better players, than settle for mediocre starters but really good benchers.
Instead they have mediocre starters, mediocre benchers and a really good bullpen
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
That is misleading
You make it sound like all our money went to the bench. We are basically spending on Willingham and DeJesus. I don’t know what the bullpen counts as to you but I think of them as more than just bench guys.
We are spending too much on Jackson… other than that, what are you referring to?
And we tried to spend even more on starters… might not have tried very hard but tried nonetheless.
You're taking my comments the wrong way...
Yes, we tried. And that’s great.
I’m not counting the bullpen as bench.
I took this post as an implication that the A’s should spend more to have a better bench, and my point was that that money would be better spent on a starting lineup.
by Brett Narloch on Jan 24, 2011 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
I think the point I tried to make was...
We had awful production from the bench last year. We added Willingham, DeJesus, and Matsui, which improved our starters, but it also made the bench deeper. We had five players on the opening day roster last year who, in my opinion, are all worse than the last guy on our projected opening day roster this year. If we can get through the season without having to give a large percentage of at bats to our AAA depth, we can greatly improve offensively.
Add Andy Laroche to the bottom of the depth charts
He hasn’t done all that much in the majors yet, but his minor league numbers are very impressive, and he plays what seems to be an average third base.
Seems like a good pick-up to me.
"Juuuuust a bit outside" - Harry Doyle
He's fighting for the 25th spot on the roster....
…with Tolleson (if he clears waivers), Sogard, Cardenas, and Conor Jackson. Big Question: Does he have options left?
Even if he doesn't it's OK, he's on a minor league contract and should clear waivers if he's
brought up and DFAed
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
I love this signing. I really liked him when he was a prospect and he's got a lot more upside
than Timmons, Baisley, Larish or whomever we had in that position last year.
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
thats what they said about crosby before he steam rolled mark ellis.
you know. theres always that risk.
YOU KEEP YOUR LAROCHE AWAY FROM MY UNICORN
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Actually, LaRoche is replacing McPherson.
McPherson was also once a top prospect who had hit hard times (mostly due to injury)when the A’s signed him last year to a minor league contract. His role was to be the emergency replacement at 3B, should one be needed. Turns out it wasn’t needed. Hopefully it won’t be again. If LaRoche is on the 25 man roster then that means Kouzmanoff is making an extended stay on the DL.
Why didn't you go at the last stop?
It's because he derived his torque from the buttocks -- cityplANner
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 24, 2011 9:27 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think Chavez belongs on this list.
Yes, over time he physically degenerated into a support role, but he was signed to such a big contract with the expectation of being a starter to the end. The others… save maybe Buck… I seriously doubt the team ever thought they’d be anything more than journeymen.
"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."
~ Anais Nin
Chavez doesn't illicit the negative emotions that the others do.
But this list was pretty much bench guys who didn’t produce last year, and are all gone now.
Gabe Effing Gross.
My god, he was terrible. That’s my biggest worry about the bench—Geren falling in love with some scrub that’s just plain awful and giving him a ridiculous number of at-bats.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico





























