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I've Been Push Polled: The SJ Stadium War Escalates
My household was just push polled. That's right, there is no conformation on whether SJ can get a stadium, there is no ballot initiative scheduled for an election, but someone is paying (three guesses the first two don't count) for a robotic push poll to try to sway public opinion on a hypothetical Cisco fields. I'm angry!
Here were the questions (paraphrased from the person in my household who took the call):
1) Do you support a ballot initiative for a new Baseball stadium in San Jose?
2) Would you still support the stadium if you knew public money would be used for the stadium at a time when the city doesn't have enough money for schools, public services, ect...
Also, for those of you who don't frequent the excellent New A's Ballpark blog, today the Giants just bought another 30% stake in the SJ Giants giving them the controlling stake in the team. The Giants spent years telling the city of San Jose to go insert a bat where the sun don't shine when the city begged them for help renovating the aging Municipal stadium, and now all of a sudden they care about the team? BS!
What this is a Neukem "bunkering" down (fallout proof I hope). After weeks of good news for San Jose on the subject, including a letter to Commissioner Selig signed by multiple fortune 500 companies, Neukem is feeling the pressure. For him now to feel that he has to result in dirty tactics like push polling to sway public opinion or spending millions on a team he'll ignore again when this is over must mean he really feels his back is against the wall.
I'd like to ask the AN readers if anyone else has been push polled and what their thoughts on the topic are.
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Oh good, another stadium thread.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Just another building where Jack Cust can strike out...
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Just another thread where Jack Cust can be called out
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea, I know there is a bunch.
But I really wanted to vent about the push polling. I can’t believe the Giants are already pulling dirty trick like push polls at this stage of the game.
What it is, is rich people with no connection to San Jose spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to cost San Jose the hundreds of job and millions in tax revenue a new stadium will bring—just so they can line their pockets with a little extra cash when the sell the Giants.
Neukem should be explaining to San Jose why him controlling the SJ terratory rights is more important than steady jobs and civic improvements for San Jose’s citizens, not trying to trick people into thinking that public money will be used on the stadium.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That isn't a push poll
and there is no proof that its from Neukem or the Giants.
I use to work in politics and just because they asked someone about messaging doesn’t make it a push poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
DFA
With all due respect, if he received a call and in fact those were the questions, exactly as he stated, I do believe that is a push poll in the strictest sense. The second question shows that someone or some entity crafted the question to influence the recipient of the call. Someone had to pay for that call. A push poll is, according to Wikipedia, A push poll is a political campaign technique in which an individual or organization attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a poll. In a push poll, large numbers of respondents are contacted, and little or no effort is made to collect and analyze response data. Instead, the push poll is a form of telemarketing-based propaganda and rumor mongering, masquerading as a poll.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
I poll testing for the idea of using public money would never have mentioned the part about schools. The question was set up the get you to make the connection about the stadium getting money at the expense of education or public services.
Since you work in politics you should know that how a question is written has a huge effect on the outcome of the poll. I stand by my assertion that it was a push pull based on the ordering and wording of the questions.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
You realize that that would make pretty much every internal poll for a political candidate a push poll if you used your definition
Asking if you would be willing to use public money for a stadium if it traded off with schools is a completely legitimate question and if you were going to run an ad about how public money was going to be used you would want to know if your demographic cares about schools or cops so that you know what ad you run, that using public money is going to take cops off the beat is more effective than it ups the number of kids that are in each class.
Its completely legitimate.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
and yet that is not what was said DFA
at a time when the city doesn’t have enough money for schools, public services, ect
The poll did not ask if he cared, it implied the city would not be able to adequately provide funds for basic services if a ballpark was built. I am surprised you are making this stretch to prove what?
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you think that the city of SJ has enough money right now?
Its not making a stretch at all, pretty much every local in the state is broker than broke. Saying that is hardly a push poll.
This isn’t John McCain has a black love baby in SC.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Except that the money is coming from a different fund.....
…that can only be used for projects such as these.
by LoneStranger on Sep 13, 2010 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Redevelopment funds are actually used for those services these days since the state keeps seizing them to fill the general budget gap.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
By law
RDA funds cannot be used for the general fund. Yes, there is some movement in Sacramento to change this (re: Tesla and City of Downey), however there is no real traction for this.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Well the state was seizing RDA funds from counties so just because the county cant do that doesn't mean the state cant.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
True..
but how does this relate to city/county rda funds in question like SJ?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
I guess
there are probably a few ways most cities could spend redevelopment to to any desired end. City governments regularly do more serious “rule-bending.”
I think DFA’s point is that the state has for several years increased taxes on local government through the highjacking of local budgets nine ways to Sunday.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Sep 16, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter whether it's legitimate or not.
It was a poll obviously commissioned by an anti-stadium group. Given the followup question we can rule out NIMBYs which leaves us with the Giants or their front of a community group. There is no other credible party who would ask for a poll like that.
It was meant to illicit a negative response toward a stadium being built in San Jose from anyone taking the poll.
Randomness or not, I consider it to be a push poll.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you ever been involved in a poll before?
Either taking one or designing one?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Isn't that the impetus of his post?
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
No, he didn't even take the poll, someone in his house did
and Im asking if hes has a baseline to compare it with.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
you do polling?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I've taken them
And I’m a Stats major. I haven’t done any big polling, but I know how they are run, I know the math behind them, and how to put one together. I have helped put small ones together in the past.
Why you feel the need to discredit me and others on here eludes me. I standing next to the person taking the poll, and talked to them 30 seconds after they were finished. Why you can’t handle that would blow my mind if I didn’t expect this kind of reaction on the internet.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 15, 2010 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Knowing polling math and designing political poll questions is 100 percent different
You didn’t record the questions and talking to another person editorializes the content.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
No, but it more then makes me qualified to recognize a biased question
written to illicit a negative response to a subject. This attitude that you know more then the rest of us about what a “real” push pull is, really reflects negatively on you.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 16, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He has no reason to believe it to be a push poll
You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that the respondents aren’t chosen at random, that there are more than a sufficient number of respondents to get an adequate sample size, or that the data isn’t being analyzed.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions
No, but is it not reasonable to assume
That since he is a random resident of San Jose, that it was a robotic call and the subject matter, it is more likely what it appears? Rather than what? What would postulate this was?
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
No
Robo polls are more accurate than polls that are conducted by humans and a huge chunk of legitimate polls are done with robo polling. Check out outfits like Survey USA which is used by a ton of news orgs (KTVU I think in the Bay) which are exclusively automated.
You don’t have the ability to know that how the sample was selected, nor do I so I cant comment on whether he was random or not.
I think it was probably baseline messaging poll. You don’t push poll this far out from a vote. That would be dumb.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that it is very strange to receive a call this early in the game
considering that there may never be a game, at least until MLB has spoken.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
There are quite a few statisticions out there (inclusding ALL the ones who I read) who would dissagree with you that robo-polling is more accurate then human polling.
The number of robo-polls has to do with the fact they are cheaper, not more accurate.
Also, a poll this far out is plausible. The Giants are is desperate need of some good mojo after the SV Leadership Group letter and all of the polls giving a stadium 60% approval in SJ.
A poll engineered to get a MUCH lower approval would give them a good response for the questions you’d hope the blue ribbon commission would be asking and create extra doubt on any vote.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah you just have to look at the robo polls correlation to elections results to see that not only is it legitimate its a better method of polling
Guess what tho the way the poll is designed makes it so that your reasoning is laughably implausible. If they are running a push poll they ask you the are you aware that its going to kill all the children question before they ask you if you are going to support the stadium.
Furthermore, why do you think that the Giants care whether SJ residents want the A’s? Their argument is that they have territorial rights down there, not that SJ people don’t want the A’s.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants care a hell of a lot whether SJ residents want the A's
If SJ gets the A’s and the ballot measure fails then the A’s get sold and more out of the Bay Area.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
hahahaha this is even more ridiculous
The they would want the A’s to get SJ and then just dump like 10m bucks into getting a no vote on the stadium plan. Doing a push poll now does nothing but undermine that possibility since it would make the A’s less interested in SJ since they will obviously do more polling since at best they a huge amount of time away from the next election.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
you're just arguing to argue now
They want the A’s to have as little to do with SJ as possible.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Basically yeah
You’d do this well in front of an election so that the next SJ/A’s driven poll would show a lack of support. If there’s a lack of support they don’t even bother putting the measure on the ballot and then the Giants wouldn’t need to spend as much money trying to nix it later on. Muddy the waters now and there’s less risk of it succeeding during the real deal. Same for the politicians currently behind it in the next election.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
I assume you meant this in reply to my comment directly below, right?
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
More towards DFA
but the thing as a whole.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Ah, In either case, I agree.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
You really think a push poll from the Giants is going to deter the A's San Jose ambitions?
Thats patently absurd. If the Giants released the poll they would have to release the questions or no one would take it seriously and if they released the questions to a push poll it would generate far worse press for the Giants than a illegitimate polling result would.
Come on people use some logic here.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not the logic I was working off at all
It’s hair-brained and not likely to work, but suppose word got out that SJ was going to pay for this stadium instead of the A’s. Not true, but supposed people believed it. Then what?
The city runs a quick poll later on before the measure goes on the ballot to reaffirm their current belief that it will pass. Only this time instead of overwhelming support for, they have overwhelming support against. Don’t you think that the Politicians are going to spin around and suddenly try to nix the A’s in SJ idea?
Who said anything about the Giants actually releasing any sort of poll? That has nothing to do with it. It’s simply about creating a negative vibe and stirring people up to the point where they were once for it and now would be against it.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
by DMOAS on Sep 13, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
This
The goal is to confuse people into thinking that San Jose is about to spend tons of taxpayer money on a stadium.
The goal of the push poll is effect on recipients (spreading the Big Lie, you might say), not to generate an actual poll figure.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Sep 13, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The die is already cast
The Mayor and members of the city council have already tried to get the team. Basically from a political prospective theyre already tied to it. They’re already on record for giving a huge amount of money in the form of land to billionaires (or so the negative ads will say).
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
That's why I said it was "hair-brained" and "not likely to work"
But I also think that if they were to do a poll and 80% of the people or more said they were against it, regardless of how much they’ve pushed this, they’d back down.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Repeating the message
that this is a cash giveaway to billionaires is highly effective, a. regardless of whether it is true or not, b. regardless of whatever outcome the (notional) poll spits out, and c. regardless of the fact that the current administration’s support for the proposal is already on the record somewhere.
I don’t get why you’re acting so ingenuous about how propaganda works. It’s not about persuasion, it’s about tripping sub-conscious buttons in the reptilian brain. Broadcasting the message “tax-dollar giveaway” is effective regardless of the facts of the situation.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Because if you read the questions that virtego links out to and look at the frequency its pretty clear it isn't a push poll
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The poll is set up to deliver an anti-stadium response
Within the confines of that, it’s propaganda for those being polled. It can’t help but be that. Maybe the problem concerns the definition of “push poll”.
It doesn't matter WHAT it is, push poll or other kind of poll.
PT and DMOAS’ points stand: it’s meant to instigate a negative feeling in the SJ community towards a new stadium. Period.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 14, 2010 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Then every poll that isn't a horse race poll and does any messaging is.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
What do you mean "does messaging"?
A genuine poll asks a question. A push poll attempts to spread (mis)information under the guise of asking a question. If that’s what “does messaging” means (I can’t decipher politico-speak, so I won’t bother trying) then yes, every poll that does that is a push poll.
It is very clear, in any event, that this “poll” is the latter of the two. Whatever you call it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Look at the poll down below that ST posts
Every campaign does polling to test messaging, aka which attack or positive ad will work the best. Every campaign does it. What makes it a push poll is the number of people that are talked to and whether an effort is made to analyze the data.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
"Every campaign does it"?
Seriously? We’re reduced to that level of discourse?
Every campaign (at least every decently run one) also uses blatant psychological manipulation on voters. Is that now OK, too?
This isn’t a focus group. The poll is a message in and of itself.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Just because a poll isn't a focus group doesn't mean that you don't ask focus group type questions
Both sides of the aisle run polls exactly like this in pretty much any campaign that can afford it so that they have a better understanding of their media strategy.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Those are most definitely NOT focus group type questions
In a focus group you do not lead the respondents. It’s a horrible, horrible research practice. I suspect most political polls are push polls because it can serve two purposes. But if you really cared about results you’d phrase all your questions without leading:
Of the following issues, which is most important to you?
Which of the following would you least tolerate from a public official?
You’d give options or leave it entirely open ended, you wouldn’t lead with an example that would muddy the analysis. Even if these people were trying to do an analysis, they’re creating a heavy bias in their questioning.
If this poll were truly for research purposes, the question would have been phrased in some form like “While currently we don’t know how the current stadium would be financed, but would you support public funds in order to help build the stadium?” Or “how likely would you be to support…” and give them a scale. You would not flat out put together a scenario where anyone in their right mind would say “Woooooh there, don’t use our education funds for this.” You can’t analyze that because it offers you nothing of value.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
by DMOAS on Sep 14, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
NO NO NO this is so wrong
- Full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to libraries
- The team owners will receive land and be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- The team owners will receive land and be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
These are all questions on the poll that ST cites. You would absolutely not use those questions if you were running a push poll, or trying to generate a negative response.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
NO NO NO this is so wrong
The poll is being used to associate something negative with what they are trying to oppose. End of story.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
If its trying to associate with something negative
What part of those questions are negative?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Associating the stadium with underfunded police, etc.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Um asking if how they would feel about a proposal that requires mitigating traffic isn't negative.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
um asking if how they would feel about a proposal that involves taking money from the police even though it's false is negative.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
um its not false
right now they would have to bear increased protection needs around the stadium from my understanding of the plan. Without an increase in General fund dollars thats a cut to regular services that are provided now.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
And you are certain that this comes from the general fund
and not from the A’s?
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats my understanding
I could be wrong, others would know more than me.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
because I haven't seen a funding mechanism for it.
so that usually means there isnt one.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
do you have a page?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
But you're assuming.
Why do you get on people’s cases for not having the facts, yet you do the same thing?
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
because I hadn't seen it in the EIR
Ive never said im an expert on the San Jose proposal.
I have said that the poll isn’t a push poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions
which you are only right about
if we use your definition
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I'm not even discussing ST's whatever
I’m talking about the OP’s call. Those questions were completely out of line with Market Research/Analytical standards. I have absolutely no idea how your block quote has anything to do with the reality that these calls (as reported) as not for analytical purposes.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
because ST is claiming that this is the call that is going out
also the OP didn’t even take the call so Im going with the written down questions from a call, as its by far more accurate than what Mr. Clean Sweep is reporting.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought he posted something
from last year (12/16/2009). I don’t see where he claimed that was this call that the OP was talking about.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
That list isn't even a list of questions.
So I’m really not sure why suddenly you’re changing the discussion. But then you’re so hung up on the verbiage, that you’re grasping at straws anyway.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Well, they can make the case to SJ residents themselves and try to sway them into not wanting a new stadium
I don’t like the tactic, but I can’t help but think it’s a good one for trying to get public opinion on your side. Basically, come out swinging first. Once people have one opinion, it’s hard for them to change. You know that.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
There has been a lot of good press for the stadium in SJ recently.
According to the new A’s ballpark blog linked in this thread the Giant’s have been push polling all year.
I agree, the Giants obviously feel this is the time to start getting public opinion on their side before the good press hardens opinions,
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 15, 2010 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Depends on what the follow up question is.
Had he said no, he may have received an entirely different 2nd question or perhaps no second question at all. Just playing DA here, but you wouldn’t need to convince someone who doesn’t support the SJ A’s, but you would someone who does. So that’s why you wouldn’t ask the 2nd question first. No need to ask it because the answer would be the same. Could very well be a market research company handling the calls and not a standard polling group.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
also
With the Giants buying the extra 30% stake in the SJ Giants, the are obviously doubling down on the bet that a San Jose stadium will happen and they need more bargaining chips/roadblocks.
There is definatly a concerted effort going on by the Giants right now to shore up their defenses.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Um thats a territorial rights argument not a feasibility argument
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I can see the Giants saying...
…“We (now) have more to lose, thus we need more compensation.”. Or, even more reason to outright roadblock.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
You're kidding, right?
The Giants have done this three times in the last 6-9 months. This is clearly a push poll.
got a link?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Now you are just trying to make me hungry
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One link, plus additional reports
You sure want to give the Giants the benefit of the doubt given the situation?
Unless you are showing that it was spread more than a normal sample size that looks pretty pedantic for a ballot measure poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay
I’ve gotten at least a dozen e-mails confirming the ongoing push-polling effort. But what do I know? It’s just a matter of phrasing or semantics, right?
vertig0
you have to know that arguing with DFA is like fighting a war in Iraq. You never win.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
dude WTF, I use to be involved with polling for a living and youre going to attack me like this. Give me a break.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
An attack on you would be directly calling you a name or making fun of you
I thought you, of all people, would be savvy enough to appreciate a backhanded compliment. Sorry you did not take it that way.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 13, 2010 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
If that was the intent I apologize, I didn't read it that way.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Go with what you know
You know that you and I have known each other for a while now on AN, have always had friendly exchanges, and that I never use AN to attack anyone. While we of course may not agree on every topic, I would not make a discussion personal. It is a fact, however, and widely known that you do love to argue, sometimes just to argue. You have acknowledge the fact. I was merely playfully jabbing you that no matter what point he made, you would have a counterpoint. It was a nod to your ability to argue. Nothing more. No worries.
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 14, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
you got a dozen emails that said that people got polled or you have sources confirming that it has a broader sample size
one is not remarkable the other would be.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Linking to yourself as a source when youre a partisan isn't what I meant.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
If you went to the site today
You’d notice that the main feature from the weekend is a two-parter on an Oakland alternative site – one that makes a great deal of sense. If I was such a partisan, why would I run it? It wouldn’t serve my “all in San Jose” purposes. Perhaps you’re the partisan, pal.
You called a messaging poll McCarthyism
to me that ruins all of your credibility.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Silly goose
It’s not about McCarthyism, it’s about Joseph Welch’s famous statement.
But hey, you’ve made it clear you’re tone deaf. So that comes with the territory. No biggie.
You know,
while I think you’re right, the super-patronizing attitude you’re pulling on this thread is not helping your cause any.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Oh, I realize that
I’m not worried about winning people over. Most people have already decided where they stand with this stuff.
That rather begs the question of what you hope to accomplish with your commentary
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Really?
What does anyone hope to accomplish on a comments thread?
Evading the question
You may or may not actually be here just to troll, but you’re really making it easy to draw that conclusion.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Credibility
The guy attacked mine earlier in the thread. I’d like to say I’m a better man and just cavalierly blow that off, but I’ve been working at this stuff for over five years. I won’t take that lying down.
right and if you linked to one reputable news org saying it was a push poll that would be legitimate
but its not a push poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
You're still arguing this?
Absolutely ridiculous.
Dude, just give it up
No one cares whether you call it a push poll or a Push Pop. It’s what the thing is designed to do.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 14, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
The way to defend credibility is by demonstrating past accuracy
not by making sarcastic jibes.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Is this debate class?
I resent even having to defend my credibility against some political apparatchik.
Many here are already aware of who I am and what I represent. I’ll let the body of work speak for itself.
Whatever
All I really care about at this point is that people not somehow associate me with you because we’re on the “same” side of this issue, so I’ll just say that directly. I don’t approve of the tactics that you or ST are using on this thread. Not everyone who supports the move acts this way.
That’s all.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Why are you so worried about that?
It is possible to have a nuanced position on the A’s future, and you have espoused that. Yet you’re worried about being lumped in with someone else because of how it may appear outwardly? This isn’t a religious war. Yeesh.
Shrug
It’s politics. Political “debates” are (as I observed higher on the thread) not about reason or fairness, which is why I don’t post at Huffington Post or the Drudge Report.
I’d rather just wash my hands of the whole thing at this point. If this is going to turn into a Huffington Post thread, I’m really not interested.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Oh, the irony.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Sep 14, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Unnecessary.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
How?
I’m all for telling people when they’re engaging in ineffectual or destructive argumentation. And I won’t object (though I might disagree) if someone says the same to me.
As for patronizing as a tactic, I have a palpable loathing of it and will never intentionally go down that path. It’s probably the one kind of comment that will reliably draw this sort of response from me even when I agree with the underlying content.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Let me get this right...
The guy who says, “I’d prefer the A’s in Portland to San Jose if the can’t be in Oakland” is calling the guy who has painstakingly researched the stadium issue for YEARS and supported plans in Oakland, Fremont and San Jose the partisan?
I guess sometimes we don’t care much about integrity.
by jeffro on Sep 13, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
That doesn't make me a partisan at all.
I have almost nothing invested in the ballpark site, Ive just said that I would probably go to more games in Portland than I would in San Jose.
Honestly Im perfectly happy letting them continue to play in the Coliseum
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That kind of suggests partisanship to me.
Just a different kind than most around here.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
I can't decide if this sounds...
Ive just said that I would probably go to more games in Portland than I would in San Jose.
…patently absurd or something even more ridiculous than that. But, hey, if it makes sense to you…
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
His reasoning is that he won't go to San Jose to see a game, because he can't get there in a timely fashion,
but he’d make a weekend out of seeing them in Portland because it’s fun to travel.
by LoneStranger on Sep 13, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I couldn't have meant that.
Only a moron would think like that.
by HCF from Oakball on Sep 13, 2010 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Why? I go to Mexico more often than I go to San Jose
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Um how the fuck do you think you have any ability to judge where I would go to my baseball games?
for someone who consistently goes after posters for daring to think that they might have a good plan for the teams on the field action because they don’t have enough information, how can you possibly think that you have enough information about my life to make that call?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
srsly. nobody knows where DFA's mom is gonna move
BOOM!
Pam liked my old sig better.
by mikev on Sep 13, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um
That’s a great point. I should have just taken this at face value and let it pass but, um, I thought you enjoyed the bluster and causticism. Um, maybe not from me though.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I think
he would of enjoyed it more if I asked it. ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
WTF?
Do you see any question that I asked of him? Because if you did you’re totally clueless. I know, you’re just trying to bait me, aren’t you? Don’t be like everyone says you are, ST! What’s that even an abbreviation for, Super Troll?
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
if that was sarcasm or a direct insult?! =/
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Sarcasm, definitely
But when in doubt throw a flag…I did just attack you like I do to a great many posters here.
I’ve really got to work on my written delivery or just stop with the attempts at humor all together. It’s obvious I’m humor-challenged.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Hehe
I thought as such, but in these days of the intarweb, you can never tell. I did like the Super-Troll reference though…think I’ll add it to one of the top 5 acronyms for my ST references! ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
I like bluster when you can back it up with something other than hypocrisy
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Or at least a true sense of humor.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Proof? No.
…there is no proof that its from Neukem or the Giants.
Likely? Yes. Somewhere behind the scenes.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
Could just as easily be the Oakland Only Consortium.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
They don't even have any money, do they?
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe
Depends on if the Giants are helping to fund them :)
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Anything is possible, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
Also
Neukem should be explaining to San Jose why him controlling the SJ terratory rights is more important than steady jobs and civic improvements for San Jose’s citizens, not trying to trick people into thinking that public money will be used on the stadium.
What proof do you have that a stadium will provide steady jobs? Most stadium related jobs are terrible, low wage, seasonal jobs.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
You can't just look at the seasonal jobs.
There was an article in the Merc a few months ago about the large number of bars and restaurants in downtown that close every year because they can’t get enough traffic over the Sharks off season. A baseball stadium in downtown San Jose would keep the post-game traffic going to small businesses year round. That would mean steady work for hundreds of employees working at those businesses.
Also, you need grounds keepers to keep up the building, service staff to work at the events and parking, and police officers and the such for public protection.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to mention all the concerts, Monster Truck events, etc
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
A stadium would provide for civic improvements, add jobs and increase business to businesses in and around San Jose
Are you really going to argue that it would not?
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The civic improvements would require public funds, so you really cant have it both ways.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
You can
The extra revenue from the stadium = civic improvements. In fact, not only can he have it both ways, since one logically begets the other I’d argue it’s really the same way.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 12, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
no "civic improvements" generally cost public money: See every Olympic Games ever.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure it costs money
But that’s why they’re called “improvements” to begin with. They’re not called “civic cash cows.” They’re designed to in some way, shape, or form to improve the quality of life of the people and/or businesses within the city. That always costs money to do. So it becomes a matter of how best to spend those funds and how best to maximize the level of improvements that money can buy the city. People have a new entertainment venue and businesses have an attraction to draw more clientele. So the question becomes whether those intrinsic and potential financial gains for the residents and businesses are worth the price of buying property, building some roads and parking lots.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
If public money is used...
…it usually turns into a net loss. The money collected in taxes, as little as it may be to everyone that has to pay it, does cause losses to occur that otherwise would not have. Those losses cannot be readily identified and largely go unseen but they do exist and sometimes for smaller fringe [fringe profitability-wise] businesses it can be the backbreaker. And as public funds pass through the bureaucracy there are dead-weight losses.
I’ve agreed with you in this discussion up to this point, though. Heck, maybe you’re not even arguing the public money thing and are just discussing this from a jobs standpoint if only private money were being used.
Also, yes, this did seem like a poll designed specifically to influence opinion and really nothing more. I’m not quite sure why anyone would dispute this as the primary reasoning. This whole relocation issue is a sad one to be sure. But one thing is very clear: Oakland’s ownership wants a new venue and it would seem that they’re fed up with Oakland as the venue’s location.
It seems that the people who desparately want the team to stay have treated this like a dissolution of marriage where they do not want to see the other spouse get out of the arrangement. And the people who really want to keep the Athletics from encroaching on ‘their’ territory are like over-protective spouse trying to keep their significant other from having a life outside the home. Controlling people {gag reflex}; pffft.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 4:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Bad anology
And the people who really want to keep the Athletics from encroaching on ‘their’ territory are like over-protective spouse trying to keep their significant other from having a life outside the home. Controlling people {gag reflex}; pffft. parents trying to keep their teenaged daughter from dating a nice young guy that the daughter really likes.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 4:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Um, hundreds of years of ecanomic data says otherwise.
There was a study out a couple years ago, the number one way to stimulate the economy is using public money on things like food stamps, because the money goes right into businesses that are being hit hardest by recessions.
Wise public spending creates jobs, and jobs create increased taxes. If you don’t believe me go ask all the businesses in downtown who make the majority of their $$$ off of Shark fans before and ofter the games. Without public money spent on the Shark Tank, nobody traffics down town 40 times a year plus concerts, and hundreds of jobs are lost.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 15, 2010 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh dear God, another 'um'.
If the number one way to stimulate an economy [national, state, local…take your pick] was to stimulate through public spending, then why not push for public spending non-stop and full-throttle? At what point would it cease to become wise? Would it ever become unwise, since there’s always a spending multiplier effect that’s positive?
Wise public spending creates jobs, and jobs create increased taxes.
So that more wise public spending can occur and the cycle repeats endlessly?
If you don’t believe me go ask all the businesses in downtown who make the majority of their $$$ off of Shark fans before and ofter the games.
Wealth transfers to the wealthy through state interferrence in the marketplace: it’s your position that this is a good thing?
Without public money spent on the Shark Tank, nobody traffics down town 40 times a year plus concerts, and hundreds of jobs are lost.
Hundreds of jobs are never created, you mean. But what of the disposable income that will be lost due to the new taxation? How would that mobney have been spent? Do any fringe jobs get lost to that? Does anyone ever discuss those jobs or that loss of disposable income from the taxes? Lot’s of federal aid poured into New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. Some say that the city is better off now with all the capital improvements. Why not begin the restoration of every American city in the same manner? Why don’t we do it simultaneously? Why should we wait for a hurricane to be the push? If natural dissasters are the only way to get the needed push, shouldn’t we root for more natural dissaters?
Here’s some counter-intuitive reasoning why I hold a different views on this:
http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html#public_works
http://www.pioneerinstitute.org/pdf/pdialg_6.pdf
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 15, 2010 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions
great more libertarian dreck that has almost no relationship to reality
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know DFA
Besides not agreeing on the definition of a push pull, we agree on quite a lot.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 16, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
If increased borrowing leads to higher interest rates by creating a greater demand for money and loanable funds and hence a higher “price” (ceteris paribus), the private sector, which is sensitive to interest rates will likely reduce investment due to a lower rate of return. This is the investment that is crowded out.
However, this crowding-out effect might be moderated by the fact that government spending sometimes expands the market for private-sector products… This accelerator effect is most important when business suffers from unused industrial capacity, i.e., during a serious recession or a depression.
Emphasis added, natch.
There are logical reasons why you should spend a lot of government money during recessions and after natural disasters.
That’s of little relevance to the question of stadiums, which are indeed typically boondoggles erected at the worst possible time in the business cycle that transfer money to the rich, but there’s no way I’m letting some Pioneer Institute nonsense go unanswered.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Since there's no free lunch...
…the debt becomes problematic. But even more problematic and less talked about is the malinvestment that occurs. These create bubbles that pop [housing sector] or, at the very least, short term demand that sends unhealthy and unreliable signals [cash for clunckers/first time home buyer tax credit]
With private investments, the gains are more likely and when their are losses, they are most certainly borne by those that take the risk rather than the taxpaying shlubs.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 16, 2010 3:18 AM PDT up reply actions
You asked "at what point would it cease to become wise"
thereby implying that if there was a reason to spend any money on services, it would inevitably lead to the conclusion that we should spend all money on services (which would effectively make the US a Communist government).
I provided a reason why that logic does not hold water. There are differing levels of effectiveness to government spending depending on when it happens. That is all.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
by PaulThomas on Sep 16, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
But I would also add that it’s not just when, it’s how.
For example, food stamps have been shown to assist the economy and create more jobs then almost any other type of government aid. They go directly to people in need who are forced to spend them at hard hit local businesses and keep them afloat.
Conversely, tax breaks to large corporations tend to have the least effect on the economy and create the least amount of jobs (no matter what they say on Fox Business Channel) because large corporations tend to throw the extra capital under their mattress and sit on it until the recession ends (which is good business, but horrible for the economy).
Remember everyone out there, it’s not what you got, it’s what you do with it.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 19, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Spelling shouldn't count.
But it does.
by HCF from Oakball on Sep 12, 2010 10:16 PM PDT reply actions
I have to concur
I'm here to talk about Don
by OptimistPrime on Sep 12, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I agrie
This is not little league. The kid who strikes out the most is not the worst player on the team.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Sep 13, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh. I'm nutral.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
The horrors! Someone called my house and asked leading questions about a controversial issue to manufacture a pre-desired resulting opinion!
That never happens in America!! Quick, someone send over a team of CPR paramedics to restart my heart, which has stopped!
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 12, 2010 11:22 PM PDT reply actions
PS
I read the bllpark.org thing and it likened this polling tactic to Sen. Joe McCarthy.
Joe McCarthy. Really.
[[laughs at the manufactured drama]]
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 12, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Its pretty typical to be honest.
The last primary campaign I worked on our opponent claimed we did a push poll by testing negative messaging and yet their poll had very similar questions on it. Real push polling is far far more rare than people think.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I meant to amp up the absurdity of it all
Glad it got a few laughs
If I was running a anti campaign I would be paying for the same polling
and it would be worded pretty similarly.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
which means?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I should know that Id be running legitimate messaging polls?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It's simple
One of the reasons why people bemoan the lack of real political discourse is that a professional can make a distinction between a “legitimate messaging poll” and a “push poll,” yet to the person on the other end they are one in the same. It’s so unbelievably tone deaf it’s startling.
The dude who wrote the fanpost didn't even take the frickin poll
and yeah if you hit a hard core partisan regular messaging polls don’t make them happy, that doesn’t mean that political operatives shouldn’t test to see if they should go with one message or another.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 12, 2010 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Basically all you said is
blah blah blah justification blah blah blah
No thanks, I’m not buying it.
in my darker, less optimistic moments where the spin-a-thon cuts into my intellectual flesh
it gets to seem like the whole of discourse has boiled down to professional wrestling, heel vs. hero manufactured dichotomies, with everyone taking whatever side they identify with but without any real attention paid to the middle view of anything.
I think I need drugs. Or at least better drugs.
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 12, 2010 11:41 PM PDT reply actions
if you're still in that darker and less optimistic place...
…I’d be interested in hearing a presentation of a middle view on this. Are you still there?
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 13, 2010 4:16 AM PDT up reply actions
The middle view is the nWo and Degeneration-X, and Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Guys the fans cheer for, yet they do heelish things like cheating to win the match.
by LoneStranger on Sep 13, 2010 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions
And thats the bottom line cuz LoneStranger said so!
There is no A in OFFENSE!!
by wacchampions on Sep 13, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Push Poll Question
How angry do you feel about the San Francisco Giant’s connections with illegal drugs and exploitation of child labor?
(the trick is to pretend you are Ray Fosse)
"I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested." - octopus virus
by Zonis on Sep 13, 2010 5:47 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Ultra-Mo. Tommy Cam.
Losing this team would be a huge failure for this city and an affront to Oakland’s great sports legacy.
Fenton's, pain meds.
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
So you're saying I could go down to the local grocery store, buy a pack of mary jane's,
and light up while I walk down the street?
by LoneStranger on Sep 13, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
not til November.
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
We're not friends, we're not buddies, we're not pals...
…we’re adversaries. The Giants are the competition, and it’s time we started treating them as such.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
by UncleLeo on Sep 13, 2010 8:50 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Um, I hate the shit out of them.
Can’t speak for anyone else here.
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hi!
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
hullo.
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
You can speak for me on that as well.
You know where i stand.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Now if only we could say this for all our friends...
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Meh
What can you do sometimes. If that’s their worst character trait, I could live with that. I have plenty of experience with it.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Except Dave.
Dave has to go.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Close
At the time I typed that, I was in the place where I live facing just North of West.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
And that..
is still underestimating my feelings on the Gnats…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Turn this green!
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 13, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't see what the big deal is...
If it’s not a push-poll per se, then it’s a poll designed to promote an end-result that will make it look as if there’s strong opposition to a stadium in San Jose.
The Giants are well aware that an e-mail from Silicon Valley pledging there will be no cut-backs in support for the Giants by adding a stadium in San Jose isn’t worth the paper it’s not written on. That letter, plus this poll, are part of a battle between the Giants & City of Oakland vs. A’s ownership & City of San Jose with the huge elephant in the room being that neither city can actually afford the kind of funding and tax breaks that a new stadium will entail (unless a privately funded stadium is built on the current Coliseum parking lot, in which case the City won’t benefit from reconstruction in the surrounding area).
I’m still wondering if a lot of the anti-San Jose pressure comes from the Yankees and Mets, who are aware that if territorial rights are removed in this case, a precedent will be set for moving either the Marlins or Rays to Northern New Jersey.
Meh
I don’t see how this sets any sort of precedence for NY. There’s a major difference between A) adding a 2nd team into a market (the Nationals) B) Moving an existing team already inside a market into a new territory within that same market (the A’s) and C) Adding a third team into an existing market. Neither case really offers a comparable scenario. The sole exception might compensation, but even then because it’s an existing team in the market, the value lost from the encroachment isn’t as great.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
The New York-New Jersey idea isn't my invention
I’ve read a couple of reports along those lines.
The real last gasp for the Giants, and they must know it, is for the San Jose electorate to turn down a stadium, so it’s not surprising a poll like this would come along. The rest of it is extortion on the part of the Giants, getting the most for what they can.
Insofar as the Mets and Yankees are concerned, the parallel is greater than the Washington parallel because there have traditionally been teams in D.C. There has never been a team in Jersey. Opening up that territory not only impacts the Yankees and Mets, but potentially the Phillies as well. And opening a territory ceded to another team or teams is exactly what the San Jose situation is about. You can stress the differences or see the parallels.
I see the parallels easily enough
But adding a 3rd team to a region and/or in this case a possible “4th” team is without precedence and opening up a territory to an existing team already within the region is simply not going provide that slippery slope. That’s not to say they wouldn’t some day open it up for other reasons. I could easily see them deciding that’s a good idea, but this scenario wouldn’t be the catalyst for that one.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
uhhh
There hasn’t traditionally been two teams in the Bay Area? Really?
I mean when you say:
Insofar as the Mets and Yankees are concerned, the parallel is greater than the Washington parallel because there have traditionally been teams in D.C.
I fail to see the point. I agree that the teams who could have a beef are teams that have territories that could potentially have another team added, I think is patently absurd to pretend that the Giants aren’t the biggest stumbling block here. It isn’t like they have gone on TV and threatened law suits (which they can’t really back up, but as if) or anything.
That's will probably
be the final phase of the Giants propaganda machine. When the voter referendum is finally needed, I’m sure you’ll see a lot of TV ads sponsored by “Stand for San Jose”.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
OMG
“That’s will”….grammar/proofread fail! :(
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
SFSJ (and thier 21 Facebook Followers)
Has properly been outed as an astroturf extension of the SF Giants. I don’t think anyone that matters, meaning MLB, will be amused if that happens.
As I said on the newballpark site… If Bud says San Jose is the place, there will be no tolerating meddling by the Giants. The Lodge doesn’t tolerate owners who piss them off.
Can you give me
a source for that (SFSJ outed as SF GIants)?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
I found this to be funny
that an e-mail
isn’t worth the paper it’s not written on
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Congratulations,
We finally agree on something in this thread.
by Mr. Clean Sweep on Sep 15, 2010 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions
The Mets or Yankees want to block the A's move to San Jose?
That makes little sense to me. The Mets and Yankees probably want to see the A’s stadium situation resolved as soon as possible, and out of court.
The one team that has the most to gain by blocking a move to San Jose is the Giants. It seems to me that they are trying to push the A’s out of the Bay Area so that they can have it all to themselves. The Giants have already invoked their territorial rights, as well as invested in the San Jose Giants.
In other news, I've relocated.
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 13, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't even want to admit how long it took me to get that.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
LB
we usually are on different planes of thought, but I laughed out loud at this post.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
If the Yankees and the Mets are worried about a 3rd team in the NYC Area
They should be in favor of the A’s getting a new stadium in the Bay Area worked out so the A’s don’t have a reason to become said 3rd NYC team.
Ever heard of Stand for San Jose?
These are the kind of low key organizations that would do such a poll. It is a viral effort by the SF Giants to misinform and deter public sentiments for such an A’s move. Why pro-Oaklanders such as EN and DFA care and defend for such propaganda is beyond me, but here is more info about this supposed “grass roots” organization (sorry no link as the original article expired):
Mercury News: Group to fight public funding for A’s stadium in San Jose
(12/16/2009) After months of sharp rhetoric against the proposed Oakland A’s move to San Jose, backers of the San Francisco Giants have started swinging. Today, a group of San Jose Giants fans with support from the minor league team and, perhaps, its big league partner will unveil a coalition called Stand For San Jose to oppose public funds or subsidies that would bring the A’s to a new downtown ballpark.
The group plans a public relations campaign to argue the stadium would divert scant city resources from schools, police and fire services something San Jose officials say is untrue. Lawyers for the group members also plan to file a letter with the city today challenging a revised environmental impact report for the stadium.
At a meeting Monday night at Municipal Stadium, San Jose Giants president and Chief Executive Jim Weyermann met with a handful of neighborhood residents to discuss strategy. The team is partly owned by the San Francisco Giants, who took a 25 percent stake earlier this year in what was widely seen as an effort to strengthen their claim to the South Bay. The Giants own Major League Baseball’s territorial rights to the area and say the A’s move to San Jose would steal a significant chunk of their revenues.
Weyermann declined to say what role the San Francisco Giants are playing in the campaign, referring questions to the club. Officials there did not immediately return calls for comment. Asked who is paying for the law firm and the San Francisco public relations agency that’s assisting the fledgling group, Weyermann would only say the San Jose Giants were not footing the bill.
Most of the group’s 60 members live in Santa Clara County, Weyermann said.
San Jose Mayor Chuck Reed said the group is “certainly welcome” to challenge the supplemental environmental impact report, which is slated to be discussed at a public “scoping meeting” this evening at City Hall. The meeting will let residents and public agencies offer feedback about the report, which is expected to be finished early next year. San Jose Giants officials and members of the new group say the document initially prepared in 2006, before current talks with the A’s began doesn’t take full account of traffic impacts and other issues.
But Reed said the group’s efforts appear to be misguided. “They probably ought to take a look at the economic impact analysis we did that shows the project will generate money for the city’s general fund and redevelopment agency,” he said.
That analysis, prepared by a city-hired consulting firm in September, said the development of a 32,000-seat downtown ballpark would lead to $130 million in annual spending throughout the local economy and $2.9 billion over a 30-year period.
The report established a set of negotiating principles that insists the A’s and not taxpayers would be responsible for financing and building the stadium and financing all stadium operating costs.
But experts say the analysis doesn’t mention the cost of the land needed for a ballpark, nor the cost of infrastructure upgrading the adjacent intersections around the site, for example.
Reed said he believes the vast majority of people in San Jose would see an A’s stadium “as a big plus for the city.”
A June poll of 400 Santa Clara County voters by Oregon pollster Rick Lindholm showed that 45 percent would approve of the A’s moving to San Jose, with 39 percent disapproving.
A more recent poll by Lindholm in October showed a closer vote of city residents: 45 percent who would approve of the move, compared with 44 percent who would not. Support countywide was 45 to 37 percent, Lindholm said.
Lindholm told the Mercury News on Tuesday that he had conducted the polls for free and that no one had hired him to do them.
Reed said he was aware of another poll, commissioned earlier this year by the booster group Pro Baseball for San Jose, that showed substantial support for the A’s move. But that group did not publicly release the results of its poll, said Santa Clara County Assessor Larry Stone, a member of the group.
Earlier this year, Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig appointed a commission to study the A’s stadium options. That committee has met with San Jose officials at least once, but members will not comment on their work or say when they expect it to be finished.
Oakland officials are fighting to keep the team, but A’s owner Lew Wolff a college fraternity brother of Selig’s wants to move the team to San Jose, saying it has exhausted its options in Oakland.
It would take a vote of three-quarters of baseball’s owners to terminate the Giants’ territorial rights and let the A’s move to San Jose.
Weyermann said the new coalition is not anti-baseball. “The question is,” he said, “is this the time that public money ought to go to subsidize this particular project at a time when we are closing libraries, schools, and public safety issues are not being addressed?”
Weyermann added that county residents don’t want to see the San Jose Giants disappear, as team officials have pledged will happen if the A’s relocate.
In 2009, the San Jose Giants set all-time attendance and revenue records, drawing more than 200,000 fans for the first time.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Im not an Oakland backer
If the A’s want to move to SF im all for that.
Also copying an entire article and pasting it is no good and can get the site in trouble… don’t do it
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 13, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
RTFM
“sorry no link as the original article expired”. CGV me…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
"The original article expired" is sadly not a defense to copyright infringement
The owners of it can put it up, take it down, or do whatever they want with it whenever they want to. Copying the whole thing to another site is infringement in any of those circumstances.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
bingo
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
The A's should move to AT&T Park
…and the Giants should move to Fresno.
Id support this.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I wonder if the schedule could be made so that the would share the park ala the Jets and the Giants in the NFL
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
It could
The A’s & Giants rarely have home games on the same day. And when they do, they’re never at the same time.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
But then they would have to change all the signage and repaint the logos on the field and whatnot.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Yes.
And tear down that ugly coke bottle. And adjust the seating so we can actually watch the game.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
I'd love the A's elephant logo done up in a wire 3D style similar to that bottle.
![]()
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Heh.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Not after the A's lease the place.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
It would be so awesome if the A's just assumed the Giants stadium debt and played at the phone booth.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Being for an SF move isn't really an option and is by far the least likely scenario.
You’ve reiterated several times you see no reason why they should move. I think that makes you pro-Oakland.
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 14, 2010 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Which seems kind of contradictory...
(Going a bit OT here)
DFA advocates another complete tear-down and re-build (or, at least is open to the idea) in order to build a strong solid team for the future. Yet, he also advocates (as I also interpret his statements) keeping the team in Oakland which would, in effect, keep the team short on revenue and thus hinder said roster development into a good team.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
Wasn't it PT who was for a complete tear-down
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 14, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
No, not really
I think the situation (as long as the team is in Oakland) is hopeless no matter what the team does. I’m entirely for moving to San Jose, because that’s the only way the A’s will ever have enough revenue to be competitive more often than once a decade or so.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Then what...
…was this [They already aborted the rebuilding process midway through so at this point the choices are to retry it, or to fail] about?
Are you for ‘fail’? Or are you now, perhaps, ready to backtrack on that earlier comment?
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 14, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
A poor attempt at a joke
You know, the whole abort/retry/fail thing?
Like I said, it wasn’t my best effort.
Uh, at this point, I probably am for “fail” actually, since at least that gives the current iteration of the team a puncher’s chance (10%? 20%?) of making a playoff appearance in the next year or two.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
this this this
!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam
by cuppingmaster on Sep 14, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I think they have plenty of revenue to field a competitive team
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Seriously?
They have like the second or third-lowest revenue of any team in baseball at this point.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
I think part of that is by design.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Dude, obviously I know that.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn't defend any propaganda in this thread or elsewhere
all I did was make fun of the dramatics on display. But you attack me anyway, even though I didn’t address you or make any statement one way or the other about these phone calls other than to laugh at the drama. Care to backpedal or should I just flag you?
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 14, 2010 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
never mind, flagged anyway
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 14, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Awww
thank you EN…you made my day ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
LOL
sensitive aren’t we? When did i “attack” you? I just noted i don’t understand your positions thereof:
“The horrors! Someone called my house and asked leading questions about a controversial issue to manufacture a pre-desired resulting opinion!”
That would seem to imply that you are condoning this behavior by whomever is trying to slander the Baseball SJ movement (which we all know you are a strong opponent of). You seem to write it off as if it was standard American practice and should be tolerated.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
you are misrepresenting my posts in this thread, which are minimal and humorous and not intended to offer a pro-Oakland view whatsoever.
In fact, I stated outright that the questions are misleading and intended to get a desired resulting opinion…. how does that differ from your supposition that they are propaganda? What you’re doing here is deliberately trying to provoke me as you have done in the past, right down to your mocking little winking face right here when I flagged you, not for dragging me into this but for posting a verbatim article in its entirety in clear violation of the site rules, for which you have little or no observable respect.
Do me a favor: don’t mention me or my name in your posts anymore, please. Your tack in all of this is purely provocative and agenda-driven and I do not wish to be referenced by you to further abet your self-aggrandized, disrespectful way of addressing people and issues whatsoever.
Thank you.
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 14, 2010 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Knowing full well
your views on SJ as some “sprawling blight with bad air and no observable cultural history or character”, how could one not think that your posts in a anti-Giants/pro-SJ post not have some hidden provocation behind it? But hey, Mr. CGV, i’ll stay out of your way, if you stay out of mine. /winky wink ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Anyone reading this would do well to examine this poster's commenting history
Very telling that you offer no, none, zero participation on any other topic other than the stadium issue, and always in this tone of disrespectful provocation and taunting, even daring to be CGV’d. I’ve never seen you in a game thread, never seen you in a recap thread, never seen you in a non-stadium-related Fanpost. Never witnessed you to make one single post on this site relating to any other topic whatsoever other than this one, and always in borderline cruel and rudely dismissive tones and often — as with the reprinting in its entirety of what must have been a copyrighted article — in full and clear violation of the site rules and seemingly amused and emboldened by such violation.
Isn’t what I have just described the very living definition of a troll?
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 14, 2010 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions
You're making me blush..
but you really should try harder and actually do some research…however, you did tickled my fancy a second time today EN… ;)
- Open Thread: Game 32 – A’s vs. Rays (cont.)
- “(sorry no link as the original article expired)”
- and your requisite DLD made by Super Troll himself : DLD 08/19/08 – Insomniac Edition
Sorry, I’m not part of the kool guys clique of AN 2.0, but thanks for playing anyways Josh… ;)
P.S. Flagged..for I dunno..being stupid (the post that is)…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions
wow a DLD in 2008, a Fanpost in 2009, and a game thread in 2010
I stand corrected, you are truly a benevolently participatory, respectful and community-oriented member of this blog! How could I have been so very, um, stupid… to use your wonderful, mature and insightful terminology? The myriad times you’ve been flagged on this site are clearly all the fault of other, less conciliatory posters and should be dismissed outright as the mere illusion of provocation.
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
by emperor nobody on Sep 14, 2010 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes Josh
I need to participate everyday, every second, in every posts imaginable maybe from way back as 2002? You are really grasping for straws now and trying (futility i might add) at an attempt for personal attack….good luck with that. /winky wink ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Interestingly enough..
did a quick web search for Jeffro’s post about SFSJ being outed as the SJ Giants and guess what i find?
San Jose Watchdog group finds SF Giants using push-poll tactics
The questions used before are almost inline with the OP as well:
For each of the following statements, if this were used as an argument for bringing a baseball team to San Jose would it make you extremely likely, likely, unlikely, extremely unlikely to vote yes?
- Full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to libraries
- The team owners will receive land and be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- The team owners will receive land and not be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- Bringing a team would mean the San Jose Giants are forced to leave San Jose
- The team owners will receive land and be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
- The team owners will receive land and not be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
Now if this isn’t the same organization running the same old propaganda, i don’t know what is. Worst of all, I can’t believe people condone or question this sort of tactic…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
And another article on this..
Councilman Sam Liccardo tells Fly that political consultants working for the San Francisco Giants have been "push-polling" to turn the San Jose public against the idea of the Oakland A’s franchise coming to the South Bay.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
Um one of your links doesn't work and the other is to some random blog. LOL
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
THe FLy is one of the oldest political columns in SJ
they are the ones that outed ROn GOnzales’ affair.
It is a column out of the Metro Silicon Valley.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
and you pay attention to local politics of other locals when you were 14?
That happened before I had even started high school
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
The Fly
Is currently a news outlet in San Jose/Silicon Valley. You know, when you wrote:
Um one of your links doesn’t work and the other is to some random blog. LOL
You really think this is about some story from 12 years ago? Geez you jump around when you know you don’t know what you are talking about but are trying to distract everyone from that fact.
The fetch was the random blog. The fly was the link that didn't work
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Geez, I screwed that up
The Fly is currently REPORTING for a news outlet in San Jose/Silicon Valley.
and has been called the fly since 2003
before that it was called…..Something else, I can’t remember. I personally know the people that have written it going back to the late 90s.
It is a well established well connected well sourced column.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
BTW -
Here’s the link to that article from the Fly :
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/09.07.00/public-eye-0036.html
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
ps a search of google of fly and ron gonzales didn't even hit on the story.
Sorry I didn’t know that the Fly broke some story 12 years ago
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said I don't follow SJ local blogs
glad to see one of ST’s sources is legit
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry about the 2nd link
should be here:
http://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/entries/01_06_10_baseball_san_jose/
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
He I know it doesn't fit your meme but guess what
- Full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to libraries
- The team owners will receive land and be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- The team owners will receive land and be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
Are phrasing the question “in support” of a SJ stadium. It is obviously a fricking messaging poll to anyone who has ever done political polling.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, why can't we just argue about Jack Cust
Now there's nothing left to say, so let's go drink beer.
I can piss the furthest and you know it
Just accept that.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
and yet...here we are.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
Didn't you ever watch Ghost Busters?
You never cross streams.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Only when StayPuff is around.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
The Angels are in town?
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 14, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
The great part is, once the dust settles and the new ballpark opens,
We’ve still got great fans who absolutely love their A’s.
It’s like the Swingin’ A’s. They fought, but they won.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
For some reason...
… all I keep thinking as I read this thread is Josh Lyman wandering around the West Wing screaming “It’s a push poll!”
LOL. Thank you.
The funny thing about baseball is that people will believe what they want to believe. -Joe Posnanski 8/29/09
"Change it had to come. We knew it all along."
Those days are over now that there’s social networking and an ability to express oneself over the web. Instead of that [which you linked to above], we now have this.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 14, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That's worth a look. It has a familiar, if slightly less civil, tone than the local threads.
I think of that ‘Network’ clip as a proto-flashmob, like prisencollinansineinciusol is proto-rap.
The ’70s — were they great, or what?
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Sep 14, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast.
A couple of general thoughts:
1. vertigO knows more about the ballpark situation that anyone on this site, and probably anyone on Earth. If you disagree with him about the purpose or backing of the aforementioned phone calls, you’re wrong.
2. Nobody cares if it’s technically a push poll or not. It’s emblematic of everything that’s wrong with politics today, and much like many practices in the legal profession, nobody outside of that profession would ever dream of defending it.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Sep 14, 2010 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
point 2 is well taken
this thread got hijacked by semantics. It would have been a much better discussion without it.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
can you please explain why a anti SJ push poll would have these questions
- Full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to libraries
- The team owners will receive land and be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- The team owners will receive land and be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
"'scuse me Mr. D, but I'm from the Humane Society...
… and that horse expired somewhere far up the road from here."

The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Sep 14, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
It would be very nice if this were to turn green
Now there's nothing left to say, so let's go drink beer.
Since you are not familiar with SJ politics...
- Libraries, SJPD and SJFD recently had cutbacks (and layoffs) due to budget deficit thus trying to highlight to residents that spending money on the stadium should take a back door to spending on City needs. They fail to highlight that stadium efforts is sponsored by the RDA funding and does not impact general funding (by law).
- Increased traffic is always a concern to local residents and tries to argue against the latest EIR doesn’t address this. Doing another revision to the EIR would result in another delay to the stadium effort as well as cause more stress on the general fund which has cutbacks to local public safety programs (see above).
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
There would be an increased public safety expenditure on games from general fund dollars.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what i was saying
you would need increased public safety, but the general fund is already stretched due to the deficits and may not readily support this, hence citing the Stadium Owners to incur the costs.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Those aren't questions.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
They are on the poll that ST claims was sent out
Again if there was a Giants push poll it would be written up by legitimate sources, like the Merc or Chron because it would be news. Guess what, its not.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Correction DFA
Those are the polls that the SJ Watchdog Group has cited that was sent out. The Merc and the Chron has outed SFSJ as a Giants front and Sam L. of the SJ City Council has stated as such in the other article. Why are you so adamant that this isn’t a Giants sponsored propaganda to try to derail the SJ Stadium effort? Your only argument is that it can be anyone, but who would stand to lose the most and has been publicly vocal in their dismissal of the effort, as well as financing lawyers, organizations, and rallies to support their cause? The Gnats of course.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Im not adament that the Giants aren't behind the polling. I wouldn't be surprised if they are
Im adamant that its not a push poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
On the poll how? They're a bullet list, NOT questions.
And that doesn’t even get into what that has to do with the call reported by the OP. You’re just arguing now for arguing’s sake at this point.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
This is the full question
For each of the following statements, if this were used as an argument for bringing a baseball team to San Jose would it make you extremely likely, likely, unlikely, extremely unlikely to vote yes?
- Full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to the police department
- A new stadium will be built only after full funding is restored to libraries
- The team owners will receive land and be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- The team owners will receive land and not be required to mitigate traffic impacts
- Bringing a team would mean the San Jose Giants are forced to leave San Jose
- The team owners will receive land and be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
- The team owners will receive land and not be required to pay for all public safety needs due to increased traffic and activity
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Gotcha
Well, whatever survey this was taken from likely wasn’t a push poll. Doesn’t say anything about the OP’s poll though.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
The claim by vertigo and ST is that this is the same shtick as that poll
the OP didn’t even take the poll so the OP has no idea what the poll was so really shouldn’t have made a push poll claim
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the OP has enough understanding about what the person they were talking to heard/took
As for the claim it’s like the others, well, that it’s highly unlikely that they were similar based on the difference in what the questions were. But then it could just as easily be different people administering the two surveys.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
not really I mean he doesn't even list questions.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
That "shtick"
is probably a cover up for one (or many) of the columnist on that site, which if you look at the list is pretty impressive including former SJ Mayor Tom McEnery.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I have no idea what this means.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
It means
there’s a lot more credibility for that anonymous source that you are generalizing (e.g. “the shtick”). After all, he/she/they again did break the cover on the Ron Gonzales affair.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
BTW -
So you think ending a call with this message isn’t push-polling eh?
Liccardo reports that the phone poll ends with a message that says: "The greedy team owners will receive millions in city funds leaving less money for San Jose fire fighters, police officers and parks and traffic, which will be severely impacted."
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
link?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
can you just you know start linking to things instead of infringing on copy write or asking us to take your word that its legit?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Can you like..
actually read the links i sent beforehand, so that I don’t have to repeat it?
http://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/entries/01_06_10_baseball_san_jose/
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
um how bout you don't send out broken links then
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
NT
Sorry about the 2nd link
should be here:
http://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/entries/01_06_10_baseball_san_jose/
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
How bout you use a source not named "The Fly"
Also that same councilman says that the SJ Giants won’t have to move if the A’s get a SJ stadium LOL.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Should I email Sam L
himself to appease you or do you have any supporting info to counter these allegations that it isn’t push polling?
And technically, the SJ giants don’t have to move (Wolf has also stated as such), even though realistically they probably have to.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
if there is actually push polling going on it would be in the chron or merc.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
So your only
argument is that it didn’t make it into the front page? If they queried the SF Giants, do you think they’ll go on record to deny it or confirm it? Most likely, it will be traced back to SFSJ, which is funded by the Giants, so can will cite plausible deniability. Anyhow, I emailed Sam L. on his comments anyhow, so this would substantiate or deny this source. If he confirms it, then what would be your take?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
My take is of course hes going to call it a push poll
but I bet hes running a poll that asks if creating jobs with the stadium is going to make people vote for it. My point is that every political campaign does these kinds of polls its not dirty and its not rare. Every politician also vilifies their opponent of doing push polls when they run the exact same poll.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Obviously
there is no credible way short of the Giants admitting to these activities to dissuade you on your opinions, so i will leave the matter as is for others to decide themselves.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
no like I said a newspaper reporting that it went out would.
The fly says nothing about that either just that Lacardo claimed the Giants were push polling.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
what do you mean by that?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions
My point is that every political campaign does these kinds of polls its not dirty and its not rare.
Usually you’re lying by omitting facts. That’s dirty.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe that minor league territories are not related to major league territories.
So no, they wouldn’t be forced to move. They’d likely claim some kind of hurt though and ask to be reimbursed for a move. And I’d be fine giving it to them.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I could have sworn there was rule that didn't allow minor league teams
within a certain distance of a major league team. It’s less to do with territories and more to do with not competing for dollars.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
I don't think there is a rule, but yea, it comes down to dollars.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Can't be a very large radius
How close are the Mets and the Brooklyn Cyclones? 5 miles? Less?
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
It would be impossible for them to stay in business
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
By business
do you mean to develop young talents? that’s not impossible. Maybe to make a healthy profit it would, but I don’t think that’s been the general rule with MiLB teams.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
WTF are you talking about?
the team would go bankrupt. No one wants to see minor league baseball when a major league team is a hop a skip and a jump away.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Unfortunately,
that hop and a skip away is a 30 minute commute or shorter to the SF Giants or Oakland A’s from the SJ GIants. I guess it’s not worth seeing Buster Posey or MAdison Bumgarner in the minors as they deveop….
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions
um when did it ever take 30 minutes to get from SJ to SF at rush hour?
Ditto to Oakland
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I can hop on
880 north to Oakland in less than 30 minutes for a daytime game. For a night game, i have gotten close to those times riding in carpool lane. Once you past 580, it is a breeze up north. I can also go up 280 with little resistance through embarcadero to Pacbell. It also helps that you go a little early.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
If you leave work a 530 you might get to a 7 pm game ontime.
I know because my girlfriend tried to do it for a work Giants game twice this summer from her job in DT SJ
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions
5:30pm is probably too late
I tend to leave around 4:30pm with a friend and get to Oakland for early dinner by 5pm-5:30pm, then head to game early for batting practice.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Less than an hour from San Fancisco City Hall
to SJ Muni. for me on a Wednesday
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
what time?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Game time was 7
I made it and parked. I am guessing I left a little before 6. I used the car pool lane.
there were 2 accidents that slowed me down.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
You realize that there are several place sin the COuntry where Minor League baseball is a hop, skip and a jump away from MLB?
Gwinett County Braves are 30ish miles from the Big Braves, for example.
Yeah but its an hour away.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, why don't you just like talk to yourself in the mirror for an hour. It'd be more effective
Brooklyn, Staten Island, Yankees, Mets, Kane County, Chicago… There are a bunch more. Go and read about where minor league teams are in relationship to Major League teams and then start picking apart individual examples rather than the larger point. Sheesh, you are fun to deal with.
by jeffro on Sep 14, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
all of those are difficult to get to from the suburbs
its not an individual example. Its all the examples.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
For a guy
that favors a move to Portland instead of SJ due to accessibility, your statements of it being difficult to travel much shorter distances is interesting, to say the least.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
why?
I recognize that im in the minority.
On a personal level if two places are inaccessible Id rather go to the place that is more fun and enjoyable. San Jose is not accessible to me. Portland isn’t either. But I like Portland far more.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Because
that is like me saying i would prefer the A’s in China as opposed to Oakland, since I go there more often and it is much more fun.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
why is that illogical
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Not true
Why have I gone to San Jose Giants games when I live in SF?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
um because you represent .001% of baseball fans?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I go to San Jose Giants games and I live in Pleasanton
You are just flat out wrong… Where is your source for the .001 per cent?
um youre a fricking baseball blogger how many of those do you think there are
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 16, 2010 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
You've already gotten the goal post moved without any consession with this newest randomly selected decimal percentage.
No one wants to see minor league baseball when a major league team is a hop a skip and a jump away.
If you push poll it, he may drop the baseball fans portion of his latest claim without any consessions. Or, he may try to continue to define exactly what is meant by hopping, skipping, and jumping in terms of distance.
by LowcountryJoe on Sep 16, 2010 3:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
They are related
The original T-rights definition for Santa Clara County stated that any team could move there as long as it was AAA or lower. The resident SJ Giants would receive compensation from any invading team regardless of level.
A test of this came when the Mets initially showed interest in having a short season team in Brooklyn. It was only approved, along with stadium funding, when the Yankees also got a team in Staten Island.
So all teams have this kind of definition?
Interesting.
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Not quite
Most teams have a general definition without spelling out specific levels. Santa Clara County was unique in that it had the AAA or lower distinction. It essentially said to the South Bay, “Anything but MLB here.”
Wonder why it was spelled out like that.
Was anyone thinking about bringing their farm team there?
by LoneStranger on Sep 14, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Sam Liccardi (SJ Councilman's response)
….that statement was based on the recollection of a woman who had
been surveyed by a phone call to her home. She lives in neighborhood
near the University, and she knew me, so she called me to let me know
everything that she remembered about the questioning. That question was
merely one of several questions that seemed tilted against a stadium
vote.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Hehe
After thanking him for his time and dedication on the SJ Stadium:
Thanks * — I look foreward to pushing ahead to make this happen.
Please pardon any typos, as I’m typing this message from my Blackberry device.
Nice to see our civic leaders respond so quickly! Can’t someone from Oakland do the same there?
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And if you asked my last campaign's primary opponent if we push polled he would tell you we did
and yet we ran a small sample poll and analyzed the data, which excludes it from the definition of a push poll.
Like I said asking the biggest political stadium backer isn’t going to get you anything but spin. The Fly didn’t even call it a push poll in his article.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You're obviously
much more experienced in these sort of matters, but for an average Joe like me, this wreaks of push-poll or at least dirty propoganda tactics.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden
"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo
by ST on Sep 14, 2010 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats part of my point
for an average Joe like me, this wreaks of push-poll or at least dirty propoganda tactics.
Youve gotten all worked up here because Liccardi called it a push poll and dirty tactics, when its regular tactics.
Put it to you this way: Youre the campaign manager and you can only run one commercial because its really expensive, the polls are close so you are going to want to hit them with tough ad, are you going to want to see which message is most effective before you run the ad or not?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 14, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know why you are obsessed with pollsters definition of push-polls
When all the posters above are fine with saying “okay, it’s not a pollster’s definition of a push poll” while also clearly stating they don’t like polls that have leading questions. A whole lot of people don’t like polls that have leading questions, where the poll is about sending a message. These same people who don’t like “messaging polls” or whatever you want to call them don’t care what they are named, what they care about is getting called and asked leading questions. That’s what people object to, the behavior, regardless of what it is called, and it seems like all you can do is say “but that isn’t a push poll” while ignoring the behavior. They don’t like it when candidates for office do it, they don’t like it when ballot measure pro or con groups do it, they don’t like it ever. Yes, it happens often, no, people still don’t like it.
You do realize using Dirty Ad Campaigns is also extremely common in politics, right?
Just because something is standard, does not make it clean. And yes, if you really cared about which ad was going to be most successful without muddying the waters, you could phrase it as such that it wouldn’t. But the act is intentional simply because it helps a campaign to be able to see which ad will incite more reaction while killing two birds with one stone. A regular tactic does not mean it’s not also a dirty tactic. The two aren’t mutually exclusive so stop acting as if it they are. Politics in general is a dirty game, it’s as simple as that and why so many people are disenfranchised over our political system. Yes, I get that you’ve worked on campaigns, but that just means your bias towards thinking that everything you’ve seen and done is on the up and up without crossing into morally ambiguous territories.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
the complaining about "dirty campaigning" is very very common because it allows people to mask legitimate questions.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow... just wow.
Then you’re already lost to the “game” that is politics and there’s really no reason to discuss this further.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
Not really, Im just saying that if people didn't cry wolf over this kind of stuff the real dirty campaigning would actually be damaging to candidates that partake.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 15, 2010 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions
So we're supposed to ignore this dirty tactic because there are worse tactics?
by LoneStranger on Sep 16, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
except this isn't a dirty tactic
its a messaging poll there is no evidence that suggests otherwise.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 16, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
You're wrong.
The evidence is in the wording. Either the people running the poll are complete idiots, or they are trying to influence people’s minds. I find it hard to believe that the wording didn’t pass through a few levels of approval before being used.
- Do you support user designatedforassignment for moderator on Athletics Nation?
- Would you still support designatedforassignment if you knew he was a convicted felon, owed child support for two children under the age of two, and kicked puppies locked up in a small 3×5 kennel in his back yard?
by LoneStranger on Sep 16, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Read the poll its far more like this:
1 Do you support DFA for moderator?
Would you be more or less likely to vote for DFA as a moderator if
1) He has gotten several strikes in the past.
2) He has had 30 posts on the rec list.
3) He believes that AN should be aggressively debate centric
4) He will be required to drop from being a moderator if he gets a strike
5) He wouldn’t be required to stop being a moderator if he gets another strike.
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 16, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes DFA.
If you were doing a poll and being honest about it for analytical purposes, that’s how you would phrase the question. Too bad that’s not how this latest poll is being reported as being handled, it’s how an old poll was done. The most recent poll, as reported by the OP, was how LoneStranger described it. Assuming he was factually correct, it was a push poll. The old poll, as reported by new articles mentioned elsewhere in thread, was not a push poll.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
again the OP didn't take the poll nor did Lone Stranger
what is more likely, that the Giants were running a non push poll messaging poll and then were like oh screw it lets do a push poll now or the OP who got the questions second hand and didn’t write it down was only told the questions that would get them riled up from the person that actually took the poll?
What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT
by designatedforassignment on Sep 16, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Who cares?
You do understand that you’ve been arguing that it wasn’t a push poll from the very beginning before any discussion of other “Giant’s” related polls? If you felt this way, you could have and should have ignored the push poll reference and simply argued that the OP has his facts related to the actual questions wrong. But that’s not what you did. Instead you’ve spent this entire thread whining and crying out “it’s not a push poll” when in reality, simply based on the few facts from the OP, what was describe was a push poll. Now, if you want to put doubt on whether the actual poll took place as stated, okay, I could easily buy that. If you want to put doubt this poll came from the Giants as source, again, I could buy that. But instead you’ve gone off over and over on a load of BS on so many tangent arguments that have nothing to do with what the rest of us have been discussing and with such earnest that it goes beyond ridiculous.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
There's no proof... there's plenty of evidence.
And no, it’s not just semantics.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen.
~Bob Lemon, 1981
Hiding behind semantics, that is.
That’s how politicians work.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Great. Now the parrot's gone, too.

Won’t somebody think of the parrots?
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
apparently, you are back now! yay! Reno good?
Peter Gammons ran over his puppy. But that wasn’t the worst part. He then proceeded to back over it too. Then rolled forward again (#3), rolled down the window and said, "What are you going to do about it, kid? I’m Peter F**king Gammons, b**ch." Then drove away. -d to the moas
by Leopold Bloom on Sep 14, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
[[[pushes his poll too hard, breaks it, wonders what to do]]]
Silence s'il vous plait!! Vous ne voyez pas que je suis en train de se masturber?!?
[[[signs poll to 5 year extension]]]
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Sep 15, 2010 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Hospital. Stat.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.
It's ...IT'S...

…but we’re all gonna.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Sep 16, 2010 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
someday, we will be dead, and this thread will still be around, discussed by cockroaches.
by LoneStranger on Sep 16, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions

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