Royals Confuse Everybody Within Twenty-Mile Radius, Win
by danmerqury on Aug 3, 2010 10:11 PM PDT
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PrintLet me take a stab at it.
In what will surely be remembered long after this game fades from all memory (like, a week), the Royals hit into the oddest fielder's choice I've seen in years. With no outs, Yuniesky Betancourt on 1B and Mitch Maier on 3B, Gregor Blanco bunted down the 3B line. Maier bolted for home on contact, but got caught in a rundown. Meanwhile, Betancourt took advantage of the rundown and advanced from first to third. The only problem? Maier managed to get out of the pickle and run back to third...past a confused Yuniesky Betancourt. Third base umpire Bill Hohn pointed at Betancourt and called him out. After Maier stepped off the bag, pitcher Jerry Blevins tagged Maier, who ran a long loopy jog back to the dugout by the pitcher's mound, only to sprint to the plate and touch it.
Huh?
I'm confused too. After a long argument and the ejection of Bob Geren, play resumed. The official play description reads, "Gregor Blanco reaches on a fielder's choice out, catcher Kurt Suzuki to third baseman Kevin Kouzmanoff to pitcher Jerry Blevins. Mitch Maier out at home. Yuniesky Betancourt to 3rd on the throw. Gregor Blanco to 2nd. One out." Thankfully, Michael Wuertz was brought in to slam the door after Blevins induced a pop out, and he did fantastically, striking out Jason Kendall to end the inning.
The rest of the game was, by comparison, a sleepwalk. Both starting pitchers Vin Mazzaro and Kyle Davies showed sharp stuff along with shaky command at times, and both walked out of the game allowing two runs (one earned). Davies lasted five innings, while Mazzaro fought through six.
Tomorrow morning is Root Beer Float Day in Oakland, as the A's try to take the series as Brett Anderson faces Sean O'Sullivan at 12:35 PM.
Current Series
3 game series vs Royals @ Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum
| Mon 08/02 | WP: Trevor Cahill (11 - 4) LP: Brian Bannister (7 - 11) |
6 - 0 win |
| Tue 08/03 | WP: Jesse Chavez (1 - 0) SV: Joakim Soria LP: Craig Breslow (4 - 3) |
2 - 3 loss |
|
Kansas City Royals Wednesday, Aug 4, 2010, 12:35 PM PDT Sean O`Sullivan vs Brett Anderson Partly cloudy. Winds blowing out to right field at 10-15 m.p.h. Game time temperature around 70. |
||
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The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 3, 2010 10:17 PM PDT reply actions
I could be wrong, but here's my take on what happened with the rundown:
Because there was no force, it was Betancourt (the preceding runner) who had “rights” to 3B. When both were tagged while standing on 3B, Maier was out and Betancourt was not. Hohn mistakenly pointed to Betancourt when he should have been pointing at Maier, but Betancourt correctly stayed on 3B knowing he should still be safe, and the umpires correctly ruled “Hohn pointed at the wrong guy, but only Maier’s out.” Ultimately, I think they got it right.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maier was off the bag.
Umps got it right.
by HCF from Oakball on Aug 3, 2010 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Except for the "pointing the Betancourt and saying you're out" part.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Is that what he said?
I couldn’t hear him.
by HCF from Oakball on Aug 3, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes. But I think the umps were right to say
“I got that wrong in the moment, but in fact Maier’s the one out.” Betancourt knew that and wasn’t going to leave 3B so the A’s weren’t really hosed in any way by the mistake.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I dont mind...
…the umpires getting together and getting the call right.
by HCF from Oakball on Aug 3, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I think they did --
there was no time that Betancourt should have been called out. He had initial rights to the base and never left it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
actually I think jd44 pegged it
Maier ran back toward second base, in which case Betancourt would be out since he advanced beyond the runner ahead of him, and Maier would have been out as well since he was tagged while off the bag
Pam liked my old sig better.
Yeah, but he was already out at that point.
He was just a guy running around in random places for a while.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
how was he already out?
Granted we have the slow motion replay, but I thought that Maier pretty clearly took a step toward second base BEFORE being tagged, in which case Betancourt would be out for passing the runner ahead of him and then a split second later Maier would be out after Blevins tagged him
Pam liked my old sig better.
For what it's worth
HP umpire Gary Darling says that Maier was out for abandoning his effort, i.e., stepping off the bag, before Betancourt was out.
http://twitter.com/susanslusser/status/20281995672
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Haven't seen the play
It’s not on the highlights and my archived game won’t load.
But, a call as described in Gary Darling’s twitter is nothing unusual – it happens a lot on dropped strike three, for example. If a batter starts walking towards the dugout and abandons his effort to reach first, the umpire can call him out, even though not tagged.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
OK, now I've seen it
The part where Maier takes a step off the bag looks pretty much like abandoning the effort and running towards the dugout. However, it is a gray area:
OBR 7.08
…
Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.
…
emphasis mine.
And, btw. what I wrote in the previous post about the dropped third strike is actually only true when the player reaches the dugout step.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
This actually happened in my game one sunday.
Runners on first and second 1 one out. There was a pop up between the pitcher and catcher. Our pitcher dropped it, I yelled for him to throw it to me at third. I thought and runner thought force out. Runner started going for the dugout. I then heard the umpire say I called infield fly batters out. (No one heard it during the play, really old ump) So I quickly said then the runner at third is out also because he abandoned third thinking he was out on a force.
I’m also the manager of the team and was ready to argue it, but luckily the umps got together and ruled the correct way.
Not your normal double play.
by Athletix Man on Aug 4, 2010 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
The part where he steps off third toward second is the equivalent to a batter taking one step out of the batter's box
realizing the ball went to the backstop and then running to first.
A “reasonable” distance just can’t possibly be 6 inches.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions
why on god's earth would he run to 2nd base?
clearly he stepped off 3rd in defeat. he knew he was out. then zook for w/e idiotic reason reacted like the ball needed to be thrown home so maier slid at home thinking there was still a chance.
correct and easy call.
he ran towards second in an effort to start running to home plate
I just saw it for the first time (note to mlb, your condensed game is from last night).
thejd44 is right, Maier rounded third and stepped towards second. It is of no moment why he did that. at that point he passed bettencourt and therefore the trail runner (bettencourt) is out. then blevins tagged Maier while he was moving toward second.
I also think both runners were on the bag when bettencourt was tagged making him out and Maier out on either blevin’s tag or the subsequent out of the baseline or the subsequent tag by suzuki at the plate.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
whoops no tag by suzuki and maier was tagged first
jd44 is still right
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I don't think he did
He only broke after home plate once the total confusion started.
And again (I know I said I was going to leave it at what it is, but couldn’t resist), this is typed word for word from my rule book:
Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.
That is exactly what happened.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
That is wrong, by the way
The rules explicitly handle dropped third strike differently than other situations where a base is abandoned. It is not a judgment call, unlike the one last night.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
This isn't right.
Maier was not tagged while standing on the base. Geren, for all his faults, was and is right here. Maier was tagged after touching third, then turning towards second. Once he is off the base and on the 2B-3B basepaths, Betancourt is out because Betancourt has passed Maier. Maier was THEN tagged, but he also later abandoned his efforts by jogging halfway to Bradenia, so he’s out twice on the play. In other words, Maier was only out AFTER he caused Betancourt to be out.
Third base umpire Bill Hohn got this play right. Gary Darling was, and still is, 100% wrong.
I’m sticking by this because the baseball rules are very clear. It was confusing to watch, perhaps, but unless someone is disputing that Maier actually went towards second (and I don’t think anybody is; it’s even in Jane Lee’s story on the play), there’s not really a place to dispute a couple pretty clear rules.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 4:27 AM PDT up reply actions
yes it IS right, according to the rules and especially COMMON SENSE.
plus the FACT that once a runner is on a base he is officially not allowed to go to a previous base once the pitcher is pitching. so the fact that he started at 3rd base before the play started officially means it IMPOSSIBLE under MLB rules to go back to 2nd base, also making it IMPOSSIBLE to “pass” betancourt.
u are under this assumption that maier was heading toward 2nd base which is factually WRONG while also being idiotic. once u are at 3rd base and the play is over. there is NO heading back to 2nd, period. he was rightfully OUT. the end.
what is the rule that says you can't go back?
what happens if you do? are you out? are you put back on your forward base?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
Except that rule doesn't apply here because Maier wasn't actually trying to go back.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Your complete and total ignorance here is the funniest thing since I saw Mitch Hedberg live
One day, after processing facts like a regular person, how wrong you are here will be hilarious to even you.
First of all “common sense” has nothing to do with this. The rule is very fucking explicit. Betancourt was further along the path to home plate than Maier. That is ALL that matters.
Also, just writing FACT in caps doesn’t mean you know what the bloody fuck you’re talking about. I understand the rule you think you understand. It doesn’t make it IMPOSSIBLE to do anything. The rule states that when a player goes back to a previous bag FOR THE PURPOSES OF CONFUSING THE DEFENSE (or making a travesty of the game). Both of these caveats require a devious intent on the part of the runner. The runner himself not being sure – or in this case, accidentally doing it entirely – has no effect on the rule.
Proof: There was a play in the 80s where a Blue Jay, I think it was Lloyd Moseby, stole second. the ball got away, but he was all kinds of confused and so he ran back to first. The ball had been thrown all around the field, so he then went to second again. He was not called out. So, you know, in terms of FACTS (see, caps!), guess who’s wrong?
I am not under any assumption. I don’t think Maier was trying to go back to second. I’m looking at where he was on the field in relation to the other runner, and BEFORE ANYBODY WAS OUT he was behind Betancourt.
JD wins.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions
What the hell are you talking about with the play being over, the pitcher and all that?
Did you even SEE what was happening?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
yes.
“If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base”
maier reached 3rd. play over. new batter. bunt. confusion. maier is not allowed to go back to 2nd under any circumstance.
I am disputing that he went toward second
First, because there is no reason whatsoever to do that, and second because he went EXACTLY towards the KC dugout.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
there is no reason
but he did in fact move toward 2nd. I don’t think a reason is needed.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
Yes, intent is nowhere in the rule book with regard to passing a runner
It’s simply a matter of positioning on the field. He was, in terms of the base paths, “behind” Betancourt. That is ALL that matters.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's my question:
Betancourt was stationary. When someone goes from ahead of him to behind him, has Betancourt passed him? Yes, Betancourt is in front of him but certainly at no time did he actually pass him, any more than I pass a car when I’m parked and the car drives in reverse from ahead of me to behind me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It doesn't matter
In most situations both runners move. OBR 7.08 says simply
(h) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;and the approved rulings include the situations where a lead runner backtracks on a fly ball, for example.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
That counts
If there’s a hit-and run with runners on 1st and 2nd and a long drive that’s caught in the OF, both runners will need to return to their original bases to avoid being doubled up. If the runner who started at 2nd ends up running past the runner who started at 1st between 2nd and 3rd, then the runner who started at 1st is out for passing the runner in front of him.
I think.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
But intent is in the rule book when deciding if runner abandoned the base
And the umpire ruled that such an intent preceded in importance the fact that in some angle Maier might have been behind Betancourt. He ruled him out the moment he started turning around towards the dugout and that is a judgment call.
If you look at this angle, he has no other way to go to the dugout, and he is clearly only pivoting around while going there. So, I am very OK with umpire calling it the way he has.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Well that is your opinion
And I am not going to try to change it. Mine is that he went towards the dugout. Let’s leave it at that.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
force doesn't matter
its maier’s bag. bettencourt is out if they are both on the bag.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
That's what the Royals' commentators were saying
If it’s Maier’s base then he’s safe initially but the subsequent craziness should’ve meant he was out as well.
At least it didn’t come back to bite us.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 3, 2010 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions
To be precise
Betancourt is out if they are both on the bag and he gets tagged. In view of the umpire such a situation never occurred.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Ya, I don't think Maier ever made it back to 3B.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions
bettencourt wasn't tagged till after maier was
which is incidentally what I was taught to do as a kid. Always tag the preceding runner who had the rights to the bag, then the trail runner. If the play is called right, the trail runner is out.
if the preceding runner doesn’t know the rule, he may step off. If the preceding runner steps off, tag him/her again and s/he is out too.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I am not disagreeing with you
I was just making your above statement more precise. He is not out by the fact he is sharing a base with someone unless he is tagged.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I need to look it up in my rule book
I was just going on what they showed on CSN and I thought it said the preceding runner is the one with rights to the base if there’s no force.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
An intentional walk to Yuniesky Betancourt...huh
That was the fourth IBB of his career. The other three all came in 2007 (Betancourt’s biggest offensive year with an OPS+ of 93), but two of those three were when Betancourt was batting eighth in interleague games in NL parks. I’ll take my chances with Betancourt with a man on third and one out. But then, the way the A’s played that whole ninth inning, they seemed determined to lose one way or the other.
Just FYI (in case you couldn't follow pitch by pitch), they only walked him once the count was 3-0
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I didn't think they were trying too hard to get him out
It was one of those “try to get him to chase, and if we walk him, fine, set up the DP and go after the lefty” situations. A semi-intentional walk even if Suzuki hadn’t stood up to catch ball four. I’d have gone after Betancourt aggressively. I just wonder if the pitch-around order was Waller’s or if that was Geren sending a message downstairs from the clubhouse.
Hmm...I actually thought the first pitch was a strike
Betancourt is a known “bad ball” hitter/chaser, so maybe they were counting him to expand the strike zone.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Wow, Kyle Middleton with 7 BB and 0 Ks in 4.2 IP.
That’s…different.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
How's that workin' out for them?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 6:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Two losses, predictably
What amazes me is how Sacramento only gave up 7 runs last night, because with the 15 walks they also allowed 7 hits. AND they lost by 2.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Barton with his 10th error of the year
Good for second amung major league first baseman.
by HCF from Oakball on Aug 3, 2010 10:27 PM PDT reply actions
I thought it was ruled a "double"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It still should have been only a single/one-base error
but Rajai was playing inside the right-field out-of-town scoreboard in that “no-doubles defense” so it took him forever to get to the ball.
Ah, you mean the
“Let’s make so sure no one gets to second base that we’ll almost guarantee it” defense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Its baseball's very own 'Prevent' defence.
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
From SuSlu on Twitter
Blevins thinks after seeing replay right call made; Geren thinks it was a judgement call on rundown. Geren contends that trailing runner is out and lead runner vacated base so both should be out.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Geren might want to read the rule book
From what they posted on CSN, in a non-force play the preceding runner is the one with rights to the base.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The A's issued Yuniesky Betancourt the 4th intentional walk of his illustrious career today.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
How many more does he need to catch Bonds?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions
It could be that Yuni has more grand slams against the A's
than Bonds :)
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I'll try and tackle that whole bizarre situation:
the Royals can’t do anything right.
Did I get it?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
.
Barton on ball that got by him for double in 9th. “It shouldn’t have been scored a hit. I should have at least knocked it down.”
http://twitter.com/joestiglich/status/20284104959
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Everyone but the OS knows that
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 3, 2010 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty bad game by both teams
Davies didn’t really pitch well, it’s just that the A’s offense is hopelessly inept. Same goes for Mazzaro and the Royals’ offense. One team was bound to lose it, because neither team was capable of winning it tonight.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
Wouldn't a draw be a fair result?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Did the ump simply fall back on "larger picture" thinking?
Meier’s in a rundown, so we’re all thinking the A’s will most likely get one out. With the heads up baserunning of Yuni the Royals are most likely ending the play with one baserunner out and the other baserunners on third and second. The ump, knowing all this, figured the A’s earned an out and the Royals need a man on third, so he made his choice and ruled Yuni out and kept Meier safe.
So the ump called the overall situational correctly but sent the wrong man off.
In fact, ignoring everything else, Yuni would be the man out based on Rule 7.03
Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
Which is Geren's argument
Yuni out on that rule and Meier out for abandoning the play.
Looking at the play Blevins starts his tag at the second Meier’s foot left the base. So he was tagged while he was on the base with Yuni and as he left the base.
by Athletix Man on Aug 4, 2010 1:49 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It is not when Meier was tagged, but when Yuni was tagged
And he was never tagged with Meier on the base.
The only argument is that Meier stepping off the base made Yuni overtake the lead runner, but it is a judgment call in this case and it was pretty clear that Meier was going towards dugout and not towards second base, so effectively Yuni did not overtake him.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Yuni is the preceding runner, correct?
He’s the one entitled to the base.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
No, Maier was
So, if they were both at the base at the same time and they both were tagged it would be Yuni called out.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Oh, well then forget everything I've said!
My whole point was based on Yuni being the preceding runner and thus being entitled to the base when it’s occupied by both.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But why wouldn't Yuni be the "preceding" runner?
He was both the “runner position behind Maier” when the play started and the one who “preceded” him in getting to 3B base.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Here's what I think happened, FWIW
In seeing that Maier was headed back to the bag, the ump prepared to make the call that Yuni was out when both he and Maier were on base at the same time. So, Maier steps on the bag and ump yells “out” and points to Yuni’s direction. Maier, based on a wrong interpretation of the rules (but logical because he was caught in a rundown), assumes he’s out and starts to trot back to the dugout. In doing this, though, he makes himself out and Yuni safe.
Chaos ensues.
Conclusion: this is all Mitch Maier’s fault
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Aug 4, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Correct. And Yuni was the "before" runner in every way.
He was positioned “before” Maier when the play began and he was at 3B “before” Maier was.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Preceding in this case means "on a higher base when the ball was put in play"
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
That makes NO sense to me
A runner at 3B precedes a runner at 1B? I would think the exact opposite. I would call Maier the “lead runner” and Yuni the “preceding” one. But I guess I flunk Baseball English because Yuni is also the “proceeding” one, making Maier the “preceding” one.
Words are harrrd.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree with not liking the way they use preceding
But you can tell they mean the lead runner because the one rule states the preceding runner and the trailing runner. So that would make maier the preceding and yuni the trailing.
by Athletix Man on Aug 4, 2010 10:27 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes. Personally, I think it would be more clear
to use the terms “lead runner” and “trailing runner.” I would not have been confused for a moment had it been written that way.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
this confuses me
maier was the first runner to get on. bettencourt was the second, therefore maier preceded bettencourt
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
More rules fun:
How cool would it be to have Meier called out because of this rule:
7.08 Any runner is out when .. (i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call "Time" and declare the runner out;
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
out for making a travesty of the game
the Pirates get called on that rule all the time
That is an amazing rule
You can tell the author was feeling particularly passionate at that moment.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Aug 4, 2010 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions
If he's making a travesty of the game, what good does it do to call "Time"?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 6:05 AM PDT up reply actions
So you are suggesting
that the umpire proceed straight to the “punching in the face” portion of the rule?
You might have to lasso and hogtie him first
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
This is the kind of thing
that would bring in the casual fan.
The freeze frame makes me happy because it confirms that I'm right about this
Being, really, a couple inches from the base is not “abandoning effort” according to the rule. Both guys should’ve been out, and once again, the people on the diamond seem to know the least about what’s happening there.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Not to argue on multiple places in the same thread
But I still don’t see how it confirms in anyway that you were right. He went towards the dugout, not the second base, and it is very clear from this video.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Then, honestly, your eyes are broken.
Look at where his right foot is in the freeze frame shot when you click that link. It’s on the second base side of third. It doesn’t matter what action he took after that. The instant he goes once millimeter past Betancourt (technically Betancourt goes past Maier), it’s considered passing the runner. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, then my eyes are broken
You win. Especially because you are using caps.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
You're right, it doesn't matter why
Had he just stood on the base and not moved, it would have been Yuni being out. But, Maier stepped off the base which then automatically made him out the nanosecond he did that. If you’re out, it doesn’t matter what you do after that.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Aug 4, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Huh? Why was Maier out immediately after stepping off the base?
There’s no rule that says that.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Aug 4, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
this call is such a non-issue, it hilarious
meanwhile, barton loses the game…shhh.
yeah
screw that guy, 1-4 with a walk, scoring from first on a double. loser. and hitting a solid line drive to end the game, END THE GAME!
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I like your use of caps
I think you summed it up perfectly.
BOTTOM LINE!
Let's sum it up instead of answering all over the place
And before I do, a little info. Some of you know it, some don’t – I am a licensed and practicing umpire, and I don’t mean Little league, but real competitive baseball. I have multiple copies of OBR, have read them cover to cover many times, often consult with other umpires, many of whom are paid professionals. I consider myself to know the rules better than most people. For what it’s worth.
Having said all that, let me sum up what happened today, in case someone who doesn’t know the rules all that well wants to read it in one piece.
There are two rules that should be considered today. The first one is 7.08(h). It says:
7.08 Any runner is out when-
…
(h) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;
This is at the core of the argument of some people. Argument can be made that in one moment Betancourt was ahead of Maier, thus “passing a preceding runner” and that he should be called out.
However, there is also a rule 7.08(a)(2). This one says
7.08 Any runner is out when-This rule would make Maier out, if the umpire was of opinion that he was headed towards the dugout. It doesn’t say anything about how much a player has to move, a “reasonable distance” is the definition of a judgment call. If the umpire is convinced he is heading for the dugout, he can call him out at the very moment he heads there.
…
(2) …Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.
The interpretation that thejd44 offered is wrong:
The part where he steps off third toward second is the equivalent to a batter taking one step out of the batter’s box realizing the ball went to the backstop and then running to first.It is not. The rulebook is very explicit about the third strike and handles it very differently than the situation yesterday:
7.08(a) APPROVED RULING: When a batter becomes a runner on third strike not caught, and starts for his bench or position, he may advance to first base at any time before he enters the bench. To put him out, the defense must tag him or first base before he touches first base..
So, basically we have two rules that both can be applied and that are producing different result. The important thing to know is that the rulebook nowhere, absolutely nowhere places 7.08(a) or 7.08(h) as being more important than the other.
If the umpire is of the opinion that Maier started for the dugout, he has every right to invoke 7.08(a) and not 7.08(h). One might oppose it because he/she has a different judgment and thinks that Maier actually didn’t give up on the play, but it is only that – a personal opinion, a judgment. If someone says “I think it should have been called other way”, I’ll disagree, but say “I see your point”.
It basically all comes down to whether one thinks he was heading for the dugout or not. Not because it annihilates the 7.08(h), but because it invokes 7.08(a).
Shaping this argument as if one’s personal opinion is the only possible interpretation and vehemently attacking anyone who claims the opposite as being an ignorant idiot is, besides misinterpreting the rules, quite annoying, by the way. And now, I’m going out for a beer. Cheers, AN.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
by elcroata on Aug 4, 2010 10:44 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
You, sir
Make AN a more valuable site and make me come here more often. Thank you for the summary.
Very welcome
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
7.08(a) sounds incorrect because the runner is way, way, WAY out of the basepaths if he is almost to the bench.
Pam liked my old sig better.
7.08(a) is just for dropped third strikes,
and so not relevant to the Maier/Yuni play, as I understand it
I'd imagine the usual application of 7.08(a)
would be on a DP when the 2B ump rules that the 2B was off the bag and didn’t record the out, but the runner from first isn’t paying attention and just assumes that the “neighborhood rule” applied, so he starts to trot back to the dugout. I suppose this rule would say that the ump can rule him out for that. It certainly would seem to be the case that if the 2B airmails the throw to 1B and the batter/runner takes off for second, he could pass the runner (who’s heading to the dugout, even though no out was recorded at 2B), and the umps could say, “No, no one passed anyone in the basepaths. As soon as the runner heading for 2nd decided he was out and headed for the dugout, he’s out according to rule 7.08(a) — so the batter/runner didn’t pass him on his way to 2nd after the throw cleared the 1B.”
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Right, I mean let's face it -- Maier was out a bunch of different times
If he wasn’t out before, he was certainly out when he visited Braden’s mound instead of running the bases. The question is really whether Betancourt, by standing on 3B the whole time, was ever out for any reason.
If Betancourt was tagged while both runners were on the base at the same time, it sounds like he should have been called out, and if he was passed on the bases by a live runner he also should have been called out. And if in the umps judgment, neither of those occurred, then he should be safe.
And Maier’s out no matter what, because if he wasn’t out before for any reason he certainly was out when he trotted halfway to the dugout.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The on-field calls were generally correct
Like I said in the game thread, the only way to truly get the call 100% correct would have been replay, and then theyre would still have to be the interpretation that Maier turning toward second base after Betancourt was on 3rd would have constituted Betancourt passing him on the basepaths.
Pam liked my old sig better.
The "bench" portion applies only to a dropped third strike
It is an exemption from the rule 7.08 (a). The rule say that the umpires should use their judgment on the plays where the runner leaves the base path to head for the dugout, but not use their judgment when a runner heads towards dugout after a dropped third strike. In the latter he is out only after he reaches the bench. In the former, it is the umpire’s discretion and it is his judgment call.
Back to drinking.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
i like this
and see the merits. I also see the merits in thejd44’s argument.
I don’t think either would be overturned if the on field umpires called it that way. It would be fun to have a trial with these two opposing interpretations.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I agree
I was not calling his interpretation wrong, just didn’t like the supposed exclusivity of its correctness.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I'm glad.
I was tired of seeing “A-ROD GOES FOR #600 TONIGHT…AGAIN” plastered on every web site ever created.
At least it happened in the middle of the day on Wednesday when most people are probably not even watching
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I assume that, this milestone being passed
Bud Selig has canceled the rest of the season and is awarding the World Series trophy to the Yankees on Saturday afternoon.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
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