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Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

Yes you can buy the shiny free agent in the window, even when on a modest budget

I’m going to use this post to show AN how the A’s can afford to sign any player they want from the upcoming Free Agent class. Please don’t waste your time arguing that the A’s have never handed out a mutli-year, eleven figure annual salary to a free agent. I know this but I’m not interested in what Oakland will most likely do this offseason; rather I’d like to discuss what they can and should do to make the team better this winter. I believe that Carl Crawford will land the richest free agent contract this offseason; therefore I’m going to use him as the example to show how the A’s can sign any free agent who happens to tickle their (or your) fancy. This is not a Sign-Carl-Crawford post per se… admittedly he is the mercenary I’d choose this winter… the point is when I show you how the A’s can shoehorn his salary into their existing budget then it makes it that much easier for you to argue that the A’s can bring in the free agent that you desire. So whenever you see me say Crawford go ahead and mentally edit it to read Dunn or Werth or whomever.

Star-divide

I start with some rather restrictive parameters:

 

1) The A’s will have an annual budget of $60 million in 2011 through 2013. The A’s have averaged $60.3 million in payroll over the past two years; $62 million over the past four. If anyone can provide information showing that the A’s are going to shrink/increase that figure in the allotted time frame then please include the link in your comment. Otherwise, no bitching about the $60 million budget I’ve allowed myself.

 

2) Anyone who currently has a guaranteed contract will be around through the length of said contract. Option years are of course open for discretion.

 

3) Anyone who’s looking at arbitration will be (for the purposes of the math) non-tendered to make the dollars work. While it is far more likely that a trade would take place, especially for the more talented players looking at expensive arbitration raises, I am not going to attempt detailed trade options that wouldn’t take place for another two seasons.

 

4) The A’s winning bid is 5 years/$95 million guaranteed with a 6th year option at $18 million or a $5 million buy out. That’s $18 million annual from 2011 through 2015. That is a higher annual salary than Matt Holliday got last year and from what little I’ve heard about the market for Crawford’s free agent services most teams consider him a step below Holliday in terms of production due to his lesser power numbers. So my figure already includes the “gotta pay ‘em extra to play in Oakland” penalty.

 

Here’s how to make the money work.

 

 

2011

 

Guaranteed Money:

 

Michael Wuertz

$2.8 million

Brett Anderson

$1.0 million

Kurt Suzuki

$3.4 million

Eric Chavez

$3.0 million

Carl Crawford

$18.0 million

Total:

$28.2 million

 

Options:

 

Coco Crisp

$5.75 million/$500K

Mark Ellis

$6.0 million/$500K

Total:

$11.75 million/$1.0 million in buy outs

 

 

 

 

Arbitration (Estimated):

 

Kevin Kouzmanoff

$5.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Jack Cust

$4.5 million (Arb 2 of 4)

Conor Jackson

$3.15 million (Arb 3 of 3)

Dallas Braden

$2.75 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Rajai Davis

$2.25 million (Arb 2 of 4)

Ryan Sweeney

$2.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Craig Breslow

$1.25 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Joey Devine

$560K (Arb 2 of 4)

Travis Buck

$500K (Arb 1 of 4)

 

League Minimum Roster Spots - Secured (11)

 

Cliff Pennington

Andrew Bailey

Vince Mazzaro

Trevor Cahill

Gio Gonzalez

Daric Barton

Adam Rosales

Landon Powell

Jerry Blevins

Brad Ziegler

Henry Rodriguez (Out of options in 2011)

 

I’ve decided to set all league minimum jobs including TBD bench and bullpen roles at $425K per slot. That way if someone gets extra money (like Bailey did, earning $435K after his first year in the Show) it should all average out in the end as accidently setting aside a little too much money is an easier scenario to recover from than the alternative. I’ve also tried to estimate on the high side for all the arbitration eligible players… at the same time it’s difficult to know what an established starter with the injury history of a Dallas Braden or a Ryan Sweeney will get their first time through the arbitration process. I simply don’t know how their missed playing time will affect their first big payday.

 

Here’s how I see things playing out, based on the information we have today.

 

The A’s will bring back Crisp and Davis to man CF in 2011. You can’t trust either one to do the job full-time and I think the A’s want a better Plan B than Matt Carson. $8 million isn’t an exuberate amount to pay for quality CF play and I believe between the two you can expect to at least break even on the investment. Kouzmanoff, Breslow and Braden are locks as well. Cust needs to keep his OPS in the 850 range and/or show more power down the stretch to stick around. I’m not bashing the guy; I just don’t think we can count on him hitting 60 points above his career BABIP again in 2011. For now I’ve got him in Oakland next year.

 

So the sure things (including Crawford) are going to fill 21 spots at approximately $54.5 million. That pretty much puts the Unicorn out to pasture with a $500K buy-out. The A’s should be able to find a 2B between Rosales, Sogard and Tolleson, with Rosales getting the early nod due to his experience. $55 million buys the A’s a 5 man rotation, a 6 man bullpen, 8 starters in the line-up and 2 bench players (Davis and Powell). We’d still need to find a starting RF and probably one bullpen arm plus assorted bench pieces but there’s enough financial flexibility to dip into the talent already in the organization (Sweeney, Buck, Devine) to fill those holes without having to rely on a prospect to step up in 2011.

 

I’ve included estimates for all the arbitration eligible players simply to give everyone the opportunity to mix-and-match roster combinations as I don’t want this post to get side tracked too badly over who gets non-tendered and who doesn’t. I’m also hesitant to name any prospect as the solution to roster openings in the future. I’ll discuss the farm system and the role it’ll be expected to play later in the post but for now any position that doesn’t have a player with at least some big league experience vying for the job will remain open. (Just to avoid any confusion on this issue, Chris Carter’s half week in the Show doesn’t count while Travis Buck’s two plus years of service time does.)

 

 

 

 

2012

 

Guaranteed Money:

 

Brett Anderson

$3.0 million

Kurt Suzuki

$5.0 million

Carl Crawford

$18.0 million

Total:

$26.0 million

 

Options:

 

Michael Wuertz

$3.25 million/$250K

Total:

$3.25 million/$250K buy out

 

Arbitration (Estimated):

 

Kevin Kouzmanoff

$6.5 million (Arb 3 of 3)

Jack Cust

$6.0 million (Arb 3 of 4)

Dallas Braden

$5.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Rajai Davis

$3.2 million (Arb 3 of 4)

Daric Barton

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Ryan Sweeney

$3.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Trevor Cahill

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Gio Gonzalez

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 4)

Andrew Bailey

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Craig Breslow

$2.5 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Adam Rosales

$2.5 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Brad Ziegler

$1.2 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Jerry Blevins

$1.0 million (Arb 1 of 4)

Joey Devine

$840K (Arb 3 of 4)

Josh Outman

Unknown (Arb 1 of 3)


 

League Minimum Roster Spots – Secured (4)

 

Cliff Pennington

Landon Powell

Vince Mazzaro

Henry Rodriguez

 

We now have a new CBA and an entire unplayed season to account for. I think it’s safe to assume that Gio, Cahill, Barton and Bailey will have performed well enough in 2011 to earn large pay bumps for 2012. As for the rest… will Braden stay healthy for an entire year? Will Kouzmanoff show more with the bat? Is Cust’s 2010 rebound for real and last through 2011? Does Rosales win the starting 2B gig in 2011? (I’ve obviously assumed the answer is yes.) Is Sweeney even around in 2011 and is his knee better; if he is he might be in the running to start in CF in 2012. Does Davis run out of magic pixie dust or could he possibly be the full time CF? And I’m taking an injury mulligan on Outman because I have no idea if he’ll be starting or relieving when he returns and his role will affect the cost of keeping him around.

 

Right now I think Braden, Barton, Cahill, Gio, Bailey, Breslow, Rosales, Anderson, Suzuki, Crawford, Pennington, Powell, Mazzaro, Rodriguez and Blevins are the best bets to hold down 15 of the roster spots in Oakland come 2012 at a cost of approximately $51 million (which includes Wuertz’s buy out). There are obvious question marks at CF with Crisp (and most likely Davis) gone and at 3B where any drop off in defense is likely to mean Kouzmanoff isn’t worth his third year arbitration salary. I wrote off Travis Buck in 2011 but maybe Sweeney is still around to play RF? I was willing to take a chance on Cust in 2011; I’m not willing to do so again in 2012. So DH is an issue but for now I’ve got a full pitching rotation, 4 bullpen arms and starters at C, 1B, 2B, SS and LF. $9 million isn’t a lot to play with but it should suffice to fill the bench and secondary bullpen roles if I can find home grown (and thus league minimum wage earning) solutions to some of the questions in CF, RF, 3B and DH.

 

More on that later.

 

 

 

2013

 

We are now 2 years removed from actual performance data helping us determine arbitration costs. I have no choice but to assume that the original baseline values that I based my initial estimates are unchanged; meaning that Trevor Cahill didn’t go out and become hands down the best SP in baseball and his arbitration raises jumped accordingly.

 

Guaranteed Money:

Kurt Suzuki

$6.45 million

Brett Anderson

$5.5 million

Carl Crawford

$18.0 million

Total:

$29.95 million

 

Options:

 

None

 

Arbitration (Estimated):

 

Dallas Braden

$7.5 million (Arb 3 of 3)

Andrew Bailey

$6.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Trevor Cahill

$5.5 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Gio Gonzalez

$5.5 million (Arb 2 of 4)

Daric Barton

$5.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Adam Rosales

$4.5 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Ryan Sweeney

$4.0 million (Arb 3 of 3)

Craig Breslow

$3.3 million (Arb 3 of 3)

Vince Mazzaro

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Cliff Pennington

$3.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

Brad Ziegler

$2.0 million (Arb 2 of 3)

Jerry Blevins

$1.5 million (Arb 2 of 4)

Joey Devine

$1.12 million (Arb 4 of 4)

Landon Powell

$1.0 million (Arb 1 of 3)

 

League Minimum Roster Spots – Secure (1)

 

Henry Rodriguez

 

At first glance it appears that we’ve hit a snag. Adding the combined salaries of Crawford, Suzuki and Anderson to our arbitration eligible core plus Henry Rodriguez and 8 roster slots at the league minimum puts us at approximately $83 million. (I’ve never been a big believer in Ryan Sweeney. I hate the bat and I think the knee injury is going to kill his defense. I see him getting non-tendered by 2013 so I didn’t include his estimated salary in the above figure.) We can’t name our starting 3B, CF, RF, DH, two of our bullpen arms or any bench player other than the back-up Catcher.

 

Take Carl Crawford out of the equation and the payroll sits at approximately $65 million and we can’t name our starting 3B, LF, CF, RF, DH, two of our bullpen arms or any bench player other than the back-up Catcher. The A’s are still over-budget and have 5 holes in the starting line-up. I think it’s time to start talking about the farm system.

 

The top 6 position players the A’s have above Low-A ball are (in no particular order) Chris Carter, Michael Taylor, Adrian Cardenas, Corey Brown, Jemile Weeks and Grant Green. (Some will argue that C Josh Donaldson belongs on my list but he’s currently on the DL so until he leaves the ranks of the walking dead…. Besides, if he does crack the Oakland line-up it’ll be at C, either as Suzuki’s back-up or replacement depending on the size of your crush on the A’s various backstops.) I’m drawing the line at High-A because it’ll take a break-out performance for anyone currently on a lower level roster to make the jump all the way to Oakland within the next two seasons. It would be great if it happened but planning on it would be foolish. Believe me it would be a lot easier if I could pencil in 2010 1st round pick Michael Choice as the A’s opening Day CF in 2013 but it would be irresponsible of me to do so now.

 

Carter, Taylor, Cardenas, Brown, Weeks and Green. All of them are talented but they also have issues which could cause them to bust. The funny thing is if only half of these guys can develop into legit big league starting caliber players by 2013 it’ll be viewed as a success by the baseball community. It would be a solid showing by Oakland’s player development and scouting apparatuses especially if the traditional strength of the farm system (pitching) continues to produce major league quality arms for trade or use. It would obviously be better if 5 of the above could develop into big league starters but it’s unrealistic to expect such good fortune. Oakland isn’t going to be able to fill the holes in their line-up by 2013 with the talent currently in the organization. I know it, you know it… and I’m pretty sure the A’s know it as well. They are going to have to look outside of the system to fill the line-up card and regardless of whether that means going the free agent route or trading talent the result if the same… the only way to acquire the position talent they need in the big league line-up and stay within the $60 million budget we’ve assumed is to trade some of their expensive pitching.

 

And there is the twist that makes Carl Crawford (or any other FA) a legitimate possibility for the Oakland A’s.

 

If things work out as I’ve described (in terms of who’s getting playing time and performing well) then by 2013 Dallas Braden is the 5th best SP in the rotation but he’ll be making the most money at $7.5 million. Andrew Bailey isn’t much of a bargain at $6 million if Henry Rodriguez is for real. Craig Breslow at $3.3 million? Brad Zeigler and Joey Devine combining to make another $3.1 million? Right there we have a SP, a Closer and at least 1 quality bullpen arm to use as trade chips whose combined salaries (approximately $20 million in 2013) are actually higher than the big ticket free agent I’ve used in my example. Swap Powell out with Josh Donaldson (‘cause it’s unlikely Beane is going to pay his back-up C $1 million) to save another $500K and that $83 million figure we were looking at for 2013 drops down to $62.5 million with Carl Crawford in the fold. Sure, I’m still over-budget but I based a lot of salaries on the high side of estimates that had no performance numbers to back them up. If players like Barton, Pennington, Cahill and Gonzalez get contracts that buy out their arbitration years it’s likely that the A’s will be paying less for those players in 2013 then I’ve supposed. I’m certainly close enough to my $60 million target figure that we can continue this discussion.

 

So what happens if the A’s do sign Crawford to the deal I’ve proposed and none of Carter, Taylor, Green, Brown, Cardenas or Weeks make it in the Show? Well… the A’s are screwed. Which is exactly how’d they be if all those guys tanked and they didn’t have Crawford on the roster! The beauty of the current situation is that even without Crawford in the fold the A’s are currently designed to move their high priced pitching arms within the next two seasons to land more position talent. The real question is whether you’d prefer to see Braden and Bailey get dealt for those prospects and have a $40 million payroll or would you rather those deals happen and you get to watch Crawford play in Green and Gold?

 

I’m not going to talk about the 2014 season or beyond because now we’ve stretched to the point where players from the 2010 and possibly even the 2011 draft are going to be factoring into Oakland’s roster. I’ve got to draw the line somewhere and when I have to start figuring which amateur baseball players could be pushing for a big league job in 2014… well I probably ought to make a u-turn and take another look for the line. I realize some people aren’t going to like taking the risk on any long term free agent deal. I can respect that even if I disagree with the play-it-safe mentality. This excessively long post isn’t meant to change the mind of anyone dead set against signing a big ticket free agent. It is merely designed to show everyone that the A’s have the means to do so if they want to go down that path. Will they? I think it’s an opportunity worth pursuing….

 

Assuming they pick the right guy.

Comment 301 comments  |  36 recs  | 

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LOVE THIS.

Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Aug 26, 2010 11:11 PM PDT reply actions   3 recs

So glad

Think anyone will come out and play when they see it? I have to work tomorrow and I’d hate to leave it all alone on AN.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 26, 2010 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

you didn't ask.

harumph.

Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Aug 27, 2010 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was busy being productive

Is that an unfamiliar concept to you?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

oooh, burn.

Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Aug 27, 2010 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Meh to your sarcasm

The old mikev would have turned my comment against me.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

seriously. slackers, man.

Nice to see you, grover.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Aug 27, 2010 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

ditto

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

what he said

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting thought process...

thanks for sharing….and rec’d!

Wondering if Crawford has any hinted at all that he is willing to give a hometown discount to the Rays? Is there any other premier player in the next 2-3 years that we should target instead? However given the growing arb figures, it might blow such equivalent long-terms plans out the door….

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden

"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo

by ST on Aug 26, 2010 11:23 PM PDT reply actions  

The Rays are going to cut payroll, so Crawford will be on the move

As for premier players… not at positions of need. Crawford is in my opinion the best corner OF that’ll hit free agency in the next two offseasons. Carlos Beltran (2011) is the only CF I’d consider pursuing but only if he proves his knee is fully recovered. And I wouldn’t be willing to pass on Crawford on the chance that Beltran isn’t toast.

The A’s need to improve their outfield production. Signing a free agent is the easiest way to do that.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 26, 2010 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they do acquire Beltran they can save Crisp's $6M FWIW

I’d rather have Crisp for $6M than Beltran for $18M anyway.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

From what I've read

it doesn’t sound like it’s even possible for Beltran’s knees to fully recover, so I’d pass on that.

by el generico on Aug 29, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

A late chime in here grover

You probably already read this but just in case you didn’t Fangraphs had this post up about Carl Crawford, And you were almost spot on in projecting what it would cos to sign CC. Cheers!

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/contract-crowdsource-results-carl-crawford/

Also check out the post about leaders in WAR turnaround from 2009 to 2010. Guess who’s number 1?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 31, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Figuring a 15% Oakland Tax...

5/80 turns into 5/92 to land in Oakland

OR

6/100 to 6/115

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 31, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is the deep, insightful post you needed all weekend to prepare?!?!

I am starting to think that a 6th year guaranteed will be necessary.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 31, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just can't see Crawford being paid significantly more than Bay got.

and Bay is getting 5/80 if you include his option.

The 6th year may be the clincher that’s needed for Crawford, but the thought of paying him $18M when he’s 35 is kinda frightening.

Pam liked my old sig better.

by mikev on Aug 31, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sign here

Like the pretty girl at the dance, Crawford will have plenty of suitors. Lets hope pray he chooses green and gold.

by Playball on Aug 26, 2010 11:40 PM PDT reply actions  

I haven't followed baseball closely this season...

…so please forgive any ignorance on my part.

What’s so special about Crawford that he’s worth $18 million a year? Are corner outfielders with lifetime OPSes in the high 700s that valuable now? Is this 1968?

by sarchasmic on Aug 26, 2010 11:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Crawford is the cat's meow this offseason

Again, this isn’t about going after Crawford. But since it looks like he’s going to get the biggest check it made sense to use him as the example.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 26, 2010 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's a 5+ WAR player

In significant part because his defense is consistently phenomenal (in the 1.5 W/year range).

Also, keep in mind his career stats take a hit because he played significant time in MLB when he was very young.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

CHONE for one sees him as a 3.9 WAR player but I think that's a bit low because

it doesn’t include non-SB baserunning and his skills aren’t hurt as much by the Coliseum as an average hitter, but 5 WAR is stretching it. You’d have to say that CHONE is wrong, and, while I’m open to that, I don’t see a good reason to believe it yet.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

The 2011 CHONE aren't out are they?

So I don’t know what you mean.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

They have an August 2010 Update

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why they think he's going to be worth negative batting and fielding runs for the rest of the year

But I don’t buy it.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Regression.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope

These are still 2010 projections, and they have to be full year (he’s not getting 3.9 WAR going forward).

It’s reasonable to regress his rest-of-year performance so it is less positive (i.e. his slash stats go down), but not so that his counting stats (like WAR) go down.

It would be like saying player X isn’t a 40 hr hitter, so even though he’s got 30 this year I’m projecting his year-end at 22.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn't CHONE use its own defensive metrics, not UZR? It may be that Crawford's value under CHONE's defensive metrics is less than UZR's.

After checking, it seems that CHONE thinks Crawford is more of a +10 defender which is certainly less than what UZR values him at.

Also, if his slash stats go down, it’s perfectly normal to expect his WAR to go down. WAR isn’t a counting stat in the vein of HRs and RBIs where once you accumulated that value, you don’t lose it. If someone puts up 4 WAR up to September, then sucks horribly in September, that 4 WAR number goes down.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right

But you wouldn’t expect Crawford to suck horribly in September. You might expect him to do less well.

And yes, there’s about a win difference between defensive stats (which is less than the discrepancy)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, you know what I think about Crawford

I’m glad you took the time to compile all this though. Whether we sign him or not, I’m sure we’ll be referring to this in the future.

For the record, a non-trivial part of my objection to him is predicated on the fact that if we wanted someone else, it’d be harder to get him. In other words, if Crawford doesn’t work out, we’re SOL.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 12:01 AM PDT reply actions  

That's the inherent risk with signing any of the big fish

If they suck then that’s a lot of money tied up in a lost cause.

‘Course, the inherent reward can be nice if it all works out. Crawford has managed back-to-back 5+ WAR seasons. The A’s haven’t had a hitter reach that level since Chavez did it in 2004, Hell they haven’t had a 4 WAR bat since Chavez and Ellis did it back in 2005.

Be nice to get a bat who can reach those marks.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

And, of course

If we don’t sign anyone there’s no risk at all.

We have approaching zero chance at the playoffs.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

this

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

That example doesn't inspire optimism.

Carl Crawford managed back-to-back 5+ WAR seasons, and now we’re talking about buying him for the next five years.

Our precedent for two consecutive high-WAR seasons is Eric Chavez in 2004 and 2005, and his next five years after that were … um … well, certainly not worth $90 million.

Yes, yes, I know. They aren’t exactly parallel cases, and there are lots and lots of ways in which Crawford isn’t Chavvy. Even so, yikes.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

That wasn't meant as a comparison

Rather, a condemnation for how not good our line-up has been for half-a-adecade.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't this be true for the "someone else" you wanted as well?
For the record, a non-trivial part of my objection to him is predicated on the fact that if we wanted someone else, it’d be harder to get him. In other words, if Crawford doesn’t work out, we’re SOL.

If Someone Else actually cost money, wouldn’t that make it harder to sign Somone Else Else, not to mention Someone Else Else Else?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I figure we could sign two actual good FA for $18M/year rather than one mondo-good FA

Say, Werth and maybe Uribe.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Which one of those is better than Crawford?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Werth probably won't be much cheaper

Uribe = do. not. want.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

this

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Uribe could be Kouzmanoff without the defense; his .314 OBP is something I don’t want to deal with.

"You're all like big fat failure turtles." - Edge

by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 27, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

It also works on just about any A-list free agent for this year and in the future.

Im not a huge fan of more than a handful of AN posters’ vibe of self-importance and the thought that there’s “great analysis” done here, however this piece deserves to be read by a wider audience and even Beane and Wolfe as soon as possible. grover really hit one 500 feet here, bravo!

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just a compliment, that's all

I happen to think CC is a bad idea, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like how grover laid it out.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Aug 28, 2010 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like this......
The A’s will have an annual budget of $60 million in 2011 through 2013. The A’s have averaged $60.3 million in payroll over the past two years; $62 million over the past four. If anyone can provide information showing that the A’s are going to shrink/increase that figure in the allotted time frame then please include the link in your comment. Otherwise, no bitching about the $60 million budget I’ve allowed myself.

This is very sensible.
2007 showed us that we CAN go to $80mil if we need to, but a payroll in the $60s is where we will most likely aim for.

Great post grover.

Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-

by Daniel777 on Aug 27, 2010 12:16 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks for the rec

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great read...

Really well thought out. I would love the Crawfish in Oakland myself as I am a big fan, I just dont think there is any way in hell even if we make a very competitive offer that he won’t end up in a huge market situation like the Yankees or Red Sox. I just have a hard time seeing him accepting an Oakland offer. I know the story was written for any FA, but he is the top guy and I just have trouble seeing it.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 27, 2010 12:28 AM PDT reply actions  

Your pessimism is the single biggest problem with the A's. Fans, and apparently Beane, don't

believe that this is a major league team on equal footing with the Red Sox or Giants, let alone the Yankees. Any wonder the attendance is mediocre in good years and terrible in mediocre years? If Wolff wants to change one thing during his tenure, he should make this the one.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not just Beane

I was listening to the Cleveland-A’s game on the Cleveland broadcast and they were saying that no free agent will want to go to Oakland because the facilities are terrible. They were saying the clubhouse is cramped and old, the batting cages are awful, the workout facilities are dated. The only reason they were saying a marquee person would want to play in Oakland right now is a bunch more money and the great young pitching that should give them a chance to compete.

It’s not just Beane with the perception, that perception is prevalent around baseball.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Aug 27, 2010 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

But how much money is "a bunch more money"?

I just don’t see Crawford getting a bigger deal than Holliday got last season at 7 years/$120 million guaranteed. (I don’t think he gets that much, but we’ll go there just to play it safe.)

What is the Oakland penalty tax the A’s need to pay in order to land a premier FA?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

that's the million-dollar question
What is the Oakland penalty tax the A’s need to pay in order to land a premier FA?

We know CC is at least open to talking to us. That’s good. I tend to think, though, that we’re looking at $110M/6 years at least. But hey, I’d rather have him at that price than getting no FA this offseason.

I also want to point out eastbayexpat’s comment below about the contract structure. I don’t think anyone gets flat money every year anymore.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Matt Holliday did last year

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Okay, I take that back about the flat contracts

I looked through about three teams on Cot’s and maybe 35-40% have a fairly (if not completely) flat salary structure.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

who are you

The Yankees?

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

and yet Crawford said the A's were attractive because of the pitching

players have said all kinds of things, including positive things about signing with the A’s in Oakland.

Players want to win. They will go where they think they can.
Players want a chance to prove their value. (Thomas, Sheets, etc.) These will prefer shorter term contracts. (For example: Beltre has said publicly that he was tempted to take the A’s offer but signed with the Red Sox because of personal short term benefit – he wants a bigger contract next year as we all know.)

by OaklandSi on Aug 27, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

And, as I've said elsewhere

There’s glory in being the face of a franchise that finally gets back to the playoffs. He’d have a chance to be an Oakland hero.

Obviously, this is all speculative/emotion-based stuff, but my point is only that there are arguments both for and against on that level.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the real point we're getting at here

is that each person looks for a different thing in a franchise. We can’t lump them all together and say what we think they want, cause really we just don’t know.

A's Fan in Sweden

by travdog6 on Aug 27, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

speaking of bigger contracts

do you think the BRC’s recommendation about the A’s and San Jose will be out by the time we can sign any free agents? That could be a push as well knowing that signing a 6 year deal would result in only 2 seasons playing in a ‘dated’ stadium and with less than good facilities.

The worst person to run from is yourself.

by noesis78 on Aug 28, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

If the perception is prevalent around baseball, then it's Wolff's job to change it.

It is the one thing that will add the most value to his shares, and make Fisher a happier man.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know if it is or is not a perception that is prevalent around the league

but if it is how is it possible to change this perception:

They were saying the clubhouse is cramped and old, the batting cages are awful, the workout facilities are dated.

The players themselves experience those places when they come in as visitors. That isn’t just perception, it is direct personal experience. Short of renovating the Coli, how would Wolff change that?

by AsFanInLA on Aug 27, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

buy new cages?

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think they mean the batting tunnel underneath the stands

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Whatever. Boston had among the worst facilities before their renovation

and players were still willing to go there for enough money and a winning team. This is a disadvantage but not a fatal one.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have no idea, I've never seen them

DFA was implying the on-field cages, I believe. In any case, if it is an issue, perhaps it could be informally addressed in contract negotiations.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or they could just get new cages.

It’s colossally stupid for Wolff to tell Fisher he’s going to have to settle for a lower return on his money because of batting cages.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course not, I would hope it didn't come down to that

But if we’re talking player facilities, I don’t know how much it would take to renovate everything they can. I assume a non-trivial amount compared to potential FA money.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

right put them in the fking parking lot I don't care

but some god damn lazy boys for the club house.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

Start building it now, get the approval later (LOL)

by Trainman on Aug 27, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

lol

Florida calling on line two…

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

If this is really true

then why isn’t it a smart investment for the A’s to sink a bunch of money into clubhouse facilities?

Is it really so impossible to do this as a stopgap measure while waiting for a new stadium? Forget about the rest of the Coliseum, just make the area for the players better so we can sign more free agents. Seems like it would be money well spent.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Even in the most optimistic projection, we have three or four more years in the Coliseum, and much of the cost of the workout rooms would be in equipment that can be moved to the new place wherever it is.

It's the fans that make the game fun. -- Rickey Henderson, July 26, 2009.

by Englishmajor on Aug 27, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I assume there are certain structural limitations that

you can’t do anything about, but I also assume there is plenty that can be done. I’d rather see the team throw $5 million at that than bump up their offer for some big name FA by the same amount.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again, good stuff

I am not completely sold on Crawford, but I know the point of your post is analyzing the ability to sign an expensive and good FA bat, any such bat, and the impact it would have on A’s roster and personnel flexibility.

Your analysis is both very well done and very informative, and you have obviously put a lot of effort and thought into it. Clear rec.

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Aug 27, 2010 12:57 AM PDT reply actions  

It's irrelevant

There are three points of discussion:

1) Is Carl Crawford worth roughly $100m?
2) Is roughly $100m enough to get him to sign in Oakland?
3) Can Oakland afford roughly $100m and stay competitive?

The first two points are not addressed by this post (well #2 is, briefly) and what I’m saying is that they are not prerequisites to talk about #3. And I do not know enough to have a valid opinion on either of the first two points – so not being completely sold does not mean I am against it, just that I am not 100% for it because due to lack of informed judgment.

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Aug 28, 2010 3:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great post!

I was already sold on signing a big ticket FA, and now I’m completely convinced it’s the right thing to do.

A's Fan in Sweden

by travdog6 on Aug 27, 2010 1:36 AM PDT reply actions  

I think this is very reasonable

I’m not convinced of Carl Crawford, though I am encouraged of the comments he and Pena made to SuSlu about the positives of coming to Oakland. I somewhat favor Jayson Werth plus odds and ends, but could be convinced otherwise.

What you have done, however, is convince me that do have the headroom to sign someone big (necessary).

Two concerns (sort of related to stress testing your model):

1. You assumed 5 years, 95M for Crawford. How would your model change assuming that he takes a lower annual salary in return for a longer contract and total contract size? Crawford is 29 right now and a 5 year contract takes him through his age 34 year. As a utility maximizing athlete, would it make more sense for me to try and sign a longer term (say the 7 year Holliday deal), for a lower annual salary but a greater total package. I’d envision a Carl Crawford deal pessimistically looking like 7 years, 110M (15-16M a year) with an option year at around 15-16M with a small buyout. I can see how it would provide more headroom right now, but significantly less so in several years.

2. You didn’t include a ramp up in salary which seems to be fairly common in these MLB free agent signings (though I can’t imagine why it makes sense for a player to agree to one, given the time value of money). Given the inherent lumpiness of salaries and given that MLB owners don’t see to shift unspent surpluses from year to year (salary budgets are yearly instead of multi-year), would a ramp in a large FA’s salary (starting say at 14M in 2010 and ending in 22M in 2015) make a difference in the way that you’ve budgeted things?

by eastbayexpat on Aug 27, 2010 5:29 AM PDT reply actions  

I wonder if he'd take a deal

which pays the league minimum from 2011-2013 and $30M a year from 2014-2017.

If so, I’d be inclined to offer it, as the team has essentially no hope of competing in those years anyway.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's like a seven-day weather forecast

Sure, it might not be all that clear. But when it says “hurricane,” it’s probably better to react to it than to ignore it.

Your own analysis shows increasing pay for decreasing talent in those seasons. We cannot, in good faith, suggest right now that that gap can be filled directly from the farm system. The A’s are likely to have among the worst drafts for the next 3 years because of the lack of compensatory draft picks, and the current talent there is not so hot.

So while it’s not literally set in stone that those teams will suck yet, it’s certainly more likely than any other outcome.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

You need to find another weather channel

There is no accurate way to forecast rosters that will undoubtedly be heavily influenced by draft classes that have yet to happen. Cahill and Anderson will be hitting their supposed peak years at the end of my analysis, I’d hardly call that diminishing talent. The same can said for any of the 6 position prospects I discussed that happen to make it to the Show. Yeah, there’ll probably be some holes that need addressing but that’s always going to be the case.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cahill and Anderson are already in their peak years

Pitchers do not improve over time. It’s possible that there is an adjustment factor to MLB, but that’s about it. And I can’t even prove that the adjustment factor exists.

Either way, they’re well past that point now.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

are you suggesting that Cahill won't improve next year or in the end of his control?

because Im pretty sure that he went from worst pitcher in the AL to league average this year.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

he hasn't been 2.43 ERA good

but hes been far better than average. even according to FIP and xFIP hes ~ top 50, and in the company of guys like danks, hanson, richard, gio, price, and buchholz, hughes, cueto, dempster, wells.

by NRC on Aug 28, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

tRA dude.... its a mighty good stat

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 28, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cahill and Anderson are 22.

Please link the article that says this is their peak and that college pitchers enter pro ball past their prime.

Thanks.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

PT is right that pitchers don't improve over time as a group

This does not mean that they decline, though. The point is there’s no “peak” to pass the way there is with hitters.

Indeed once you get past 27, pitchers perform better as a group because the bad ones are weeded out.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ya but I also find it hard to believe Anderson should be expected to get

much better. He’s already having arm soreness. Cahill might improve his breaking stuff, get more Ks and improve his FIP but I’m not expecting the raw ERA to improve.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right

Generally pitchers don’t pitch in the MLB until their skills are refined (unlike Cahill last year). At that point, they are who they are until they break.

Anderson probably is who he is.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Do they need to?

Baring injury I will take what I am seeing from our young SP’s, (Neo, Cahill, Gio & Mazz) for the next 5+ years.

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

This part...
The point is there’s no "peak" to pass the way there is with hitters.

Makes more sense to me than the implications behind PT’s comment.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

people hit their physical maturation in their mid twenties

anderson and cahill may still grow into their bodies which could do a number of different things to their pitches, this is why i would think that they wouldn’t peak until they are physically fully developed

When we played softball, I’d steal second base, feel guilty and go back.
- Woody Allen

by rhymeswithelephant on Aug 27, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thats not what the analysis says.

Link.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

That would probably

a. ensure he wouldn’t sign here (I assume his agent would balk)
b. Make him untradable (why would we pay $30M for one player on a putative crappy 2014 team? You would want to trade him)

I wouldn’t be totally opposed to asking him to defer some of the up front payments to some sort of annuity, say, from the contract end to 10 years after.

Do FA contracts need to pass through the commissioner’s office?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

The MLBPA would never agree to a back loaded contract like that

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

The model doesn't change through 2014-ish

But by 2015 Crawford’s contract goes from being the suppliment to pushing the A’s over the top to being the centerpiece around which all other financial decisions are based. Anderson will be on his final club option, Gio will have 1 last year of arbitration and Suzuki and Cahill are currently scheduled to be FA in 2015. Pretty much the entire core of the current team could be leaving by 2015.

Or not.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Okay, basically...

If it’s an extended contract, we should basically assume that any level of competitiveness we’re at in 2015-2017 is dependent almost entirely on how Crawford is producing at 35-36. That’s not a fun exercise.

Not that I’d necessarily give up a very good 2011-2014 for it, but interesting indeed.

by eastbayexpat on Aug 27, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not dependent on Crawford's production, necessarily

But his salary would be one of the few big ticket items on the roster.

The a’s competitiveness would be mostly based on how well they draft 2010-2012.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see hope the A’s locking up Gio, Cahill & maybe Mazz all for 5+ years

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

like, a lot?

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Aug 27, 2010 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

[--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------]

this good?

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Amen brother.

I’m ready to flag all whiny posts at this point.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

sorry

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Aug 27, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I love the thinking behind this post and am really annoyed by the defeatism among many

on this board as well as Beane’s, but I’m not sure that 5 years/$95M gets it done. He’s worth more than $20M/year to the Angels, since he would be about a 4-5 win upgrade over Hideki Matsui, and they seem to care about winning baseball games.

I’m not sure that it won’t take 8 years at $22 million per year to get him to Oakland. I also think it would be worth it, if only to turn around the defeatist attitude of the fans and the GM.

If they really want to draw $3 million fans in good times and $2 million fans in bad times, attract a decent radio station and get someone — whether in Oakland or San Jose — excited about building a stadium, they need a major attitude adjustment.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 7:08 AM PDT reply actions  

The Angels are committed to like $90M already next year

We certainly can outbid them, and if it’s just the two of us we absolutely should since he becomes a 10 win swing in the division.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well I wouldn't go all out to get Crawford if there's another 2 4+ WAR OF to be had.

I see maybe one in Choo, who would probably cost one of Carter or Green and a bunch of other stuff, and that’s about it. Werth isn’t one. If there is another such guy available I’d like to hear about it.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

8 years/172 million is just plain stupid for a 4.5 WAR player.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Making a stupid to correct a wrong is brilliant?

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure

But I like the way that rolls off the tongue.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

$22M is a lot of f---ing money for a lot of years

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

and it completely ignores the downturn in large contracts thanks to the recession.

I severely doubt anyone will get $100MM from a non-Yankees team this year. It just isnt the way things are going. Orlando Hudson is a top 10 2B in the game, yet he didnt sign until March and for the low contract of $5MM. I see more of things like that, less of 5+ years, 100+MM deals.

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

A couple of minor points:

1) I’m not so sure you keep Kouzmanoff instead of Ellis — which one you you think is the defensive whiz depends somewhat on whether you prefer UZR or Dewan’s Plus/Minus and of course what your eyes tell you.

2) Even with Crawford I don’t think the A’s are as good as the Rangers, although they’d be better than the Angels — keeping Crawford away from them is important. They still need to solve RF, and that means either trading the farm for someone like Choo or praying Carter figures it out by July at the latest.

3) I learned “exuberate” was a word, as in “I’d exuberate if the A’s signed Carl Crawford.”

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 7:13 AM PDT reply actions  

with terrific pitching the A's may not need an offense "as good as" the Rangers

although clearly they need a better offense than the one they have now.

by OaklandSi on Aug 27, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wasn't talking just about the offense, I meant the whole team.

Right now I reckon the Rangers are about 6-7 wins better than the A’s. Crawford makes up about 4 of that. They either need to acquire another 4 win corner OF or hope it’s Carter.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not really

Crawford makes up five of that (since he’s replacing 0 WAR players and is 5+ himself)

Cust for a full year makes up another.

I think we can get 2 more from RF (Sweeney, if his knees recover is at least 2 WAR and there’s other real candidates) / not playing the Chavez/Matt/Matt/Fox/Patterson/etc suckfest

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have a hard time believing Sweeney can play outfield defense at a high level again

Which is where most of his WAR value comes from.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

We won't know until next spring

But yes, his value is primarily on D.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Whether Crawford is a 4 win or 5 win player, I still want another 4+ win player in RF

The objective isn’t to make up exactly 6.5 wins, it’s to maximize your wins within your budget.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I want one too

But we probably can’t afford two.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd trade Green plus a bunch of other stuff for Choo or another similar guy

If there’s no one available in the offseason, then there’s midseason.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would certainly like Choo.

It’s easy to imagine the cost being prohibitive though.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Green, Taylor, Banwart, Krol and Dixon?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Vomits

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Me too

You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ

by bakerbeachboy on Aug 27, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Got a better idea?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm against that proposal mainly because of the inclusion of Green and Krol

Green is arguably our best position player prospect and Krol our best pitching prosect. I just don’t think Choo is worth either (IMO).

If we’re trading for Justin Upton? Then yes, I’d offer your proposal in a heartbeat. But I wouldn’t for Choo. He’s a really good player, but not a superstar (albeit a rocket for an arm).

I’d do something like Cardenas, Brown, Weeks, and Donaldson for Choo. But I have know idea if that’s realistic.

You know you are big-time when people chant your name while you pee. - 67MARQUEZ

by bakerbeachboy on Aug 30, 2010 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unless we trade

Just throwing this one out there:

Barton + Mazzaro + Bailey to slegnA, Morales to us.

Thoughts?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

No.

He’s not significantly better than Barton (but is better). We lose on this and open a rotation hole

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

In some ways, I think they are ideal trading partners for us

They really need the pitching right now, Haren or not, and their top prospects are mostly pitchers. We need the hitting right now, and our top prospects are mostly hitters.

But it sure would suck to see Barton playing for those f—-ers

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's a painful trade IMO

We give Anaheim a legit closer for the first time in 2 years, a mainstay in their rotation and a starting 1Bman for Morales?
If we look at Fangraphs WAR, we’re potentially giving up around 8 WAR a season for 3-5 seasons (Barton- 4+, Mazzaro 2-3, Bailey 1.5-2) for 3 seasons of Morales giving a WAR of 4-5 at his very best.

That would be an absolute fleecing by them if we pulled the trigger on that.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Aug 27, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't like Bailey's FIP

Way too high (3.35), and one of Devine or Henry is bound to give us something. Barton is a steep price, but they would want a 1Bman.

Mazz is what makes this trade worthwhile or not. If we could escape without sending him, great. But since SP is what they need, I think they would ask for him (at least!)

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with that

But it’s still wayyyyyy too high a price for Morales.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Aug 27, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

When did Kendry Morales get to be that good?

Serious question. I mean, i don’t really know all that much about him, but I’m seeing a low plate discipline batter who had a high BABIP in 2009 to bloat his WAR, but has basically been a marginal player for the rest of his career.

I mean, he’s 27, so it’s not like there’s a huge amount of room for him to improve…Maybe I’m missing something here.

by eastbayexpat on Aug 27, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's probably more likely to succeed than Werth,

who is more likely to get worse than stay the same. And I think we’re in the game for Werth. Morales was pretty good in AAA in 2008 and has at least average defense.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Unless UZR is way off,

his defense is better than Barton’s at first base.

He’s a good player. BABIP has little to do with it, really. .329 is nowhere near out of line for a power hitter. I mean, he was on pace for another 4 WAR season this year until he got hurt.

[The proffered trade is still silly though.]

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

It just seemed out of line with his historical

But I’m happy to defer due to lack of knowledge aside from a quick scan of fangraphs.

by eastbayexpat on Aug 27, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair, I realize it's a lot of value to give up

I was just trying to think of a not overpriced (money-wise) and fairly young power hitter who will likely continue to be both of those things going forward and play average defense. He’s the first guy that came to mind.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

While that may be the asking price

That certainly doesn’t mean we should be willing to pay if it makes a bad investment. “That’s what it takes to get him” isn’t a very good reason to pull the trigger on a deal. “That’s what it takes to get him and we get more back” is.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Aug 27, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure Beane hasnt dealt with slegnA in 10 years.

If it was it was a completely insignificant move. In this day & age with the unbalanced schedule, its suicide dealing within the division….unless you think you can get away with it.

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beane dealt with the Angels way back

when Bavasi was the GM there. The Velarde-Olivares trade.

He had no dealings at all with Stoneman. Part of that is that Stoneman just didn’t trade much at all, but I’ve heard that he specifically wouldn’t trade with Beane.

So far it seems to me like Reagins trades a little more than Stoneman did, but still not a lot. As far as I know he’s done no deals with Beane.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am all for this
not playing the Chavez/Matt/Matt/Fox/Patterson/etc suckfest

"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010

by adragon on Aug 27, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Crawford's more of a 4.5 WAR guy, assuming he doesn't decline.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

If that's all we disagree about we are close

But he was 5.5 last year, and is already 5.5 this year (although on the back of a career-defense year).

Two years ago he had hitting issues and only played in 109 games, and three years ago he had a low UZR (the only time under 10 since his rookie year, and it was -2.5). Before that he was over 4.5 for three straight years.

I see 5 and not 4.5, but it isn’t much of a difference.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would exuberate if the A's would exorbitate.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent, excellent, excellent, grover.

Great analysis.

I think that the roundabout conclusion of your analysis is this:

There is no rational reason – especially financial reason – preventing the A’s from addressing their offensive shortcomings this offseason. And it needs to happen THIS offseason.

The pitching staff Beane has built…from number 1 starter all the way down to 7th bullpen member, is pretty damn good. At best, this core group will only be together for another 3 years. This organization NEEDS to surround this pitching group with some bats RIGHT NOW.

This is why I was so annoyed during the Tafoya interview when Beane mentioned that any upgrades to the offense will need to come from within the organization. That’s ridiculous. I have high hopes for Carter, still have some faith in Taylor, still think that Corey Brown and ADrian Cardenas will hit in the upper levels and I definitely have big crushes on GRant GReen, Stephen Parker and Michael Choice. But like you said, maybe, MAYBE half of those guys actually pan out…but that won’t happen for at least two full years of maturation. In two years, the window of this pitching staff will be closing…or already closed.

This organization’s gotta get some guaranteed plus hitters into the lineup this winter. I mean, as you laid out above, it’s not really a stretch to think that the organization can just totally outbid the rest of the market for at least one great hitter…sure, the hang-up might be total years involved, where you might be paying $15-$18 million for a guy in 2013/2014 that is in his mid 30s and declining…but by that time, the current window will be closed and if the contract hasn’t worked out up to that point, the organization is obviously f***ed anyway.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Aug 27, 2010 9:25 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

well in that interview the question was more specific

it was about acquiring a power bat via the FA market. Crawford is not a power bat ;)

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

cust

come on man

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

2010 Isolated Slugging Percentages:

Crawford: .176
Cust: .175

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Aug 27, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can't agree with this:

There is no rational reason – especially financial reason – preventing the A’s from addressing their offensive shortcomings this offseason. And it needs to happen THIS offseason.

There certainly IS a rational reason for this. I suspect that it is nigh-impossible for a Carl Crawford signing to actually pay for itself (as much as we might want the team to make it).

I’ll optimistically forecast that he stays at 4.5 WAR for the next three seasons and then drops off just half a win per year after that. I’ll also assume no inflation, which is artificial, but the way the economy is going, maybe not so artificial.

That means that over the life, he provides 26.5 wins above replacement. I’ll optimistically assume that Oakland can get about $1.5M worth of ticket sales, buzz, etc. per win (given how horrible this market is, I’m not convinced it’s even that high). So that’s basically $40M in value.

He also increases the chance of the team reaching the postseason. The 2011 team would probably get a 20% boost in postseason chance (from about 10% to about 30%) from signing him. (I’m basing that on the odds of winning the division from a 7-game handicap versus a 2.5-game handicap.) That number is also going to decrease in future years, as the A’s talent base erodes and so do Crawford’s skills. I’m going to call it 20%, 20%, 15%, 15%, 10%, 10%, 10%.

A postseason appearance, and opportunity to pull the lever on the playoff slots, is probably worth about $30M for the A’s. That’s optimistic, but I’m supposing that a WS championship might re-galvanize community interest, etc. That means you’re reaping about $12M+9M+9M=$30M of value from Crawford’s postseason chance increase.

Well, there you have it. Seven years of Crawford is worth about $70M. I don’t know about you but I’m not holding my breath waiting for him to sign that tender. You have to seriously mess with the input values or the increase in postseason probability for this deal to make sense as a single financial transaction.

This is a fundamental problem with how MLB is structured right now. It’s fiscal lunacy for small market teams to commit to big contracts. It’s like betting big money on roulette— sure you might luck out, but the game is rigged against you. We don’t have to like it— certainly everyone here would be better off if the A’s decided to sign Crawford for a lot more than that, but the team’s bottom line would not.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hear that.

Which is why I think that Crawford won’t be the guy…but going 4 years for Werth, who would probably have a similar effect on the team’s postseason chances with it’s current core? THat might be worth it…

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Aug 27, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

this

4 years/$55-60M backloaded contract for Werth. If we suck again in 2013, then trade him.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's better

I have him as being worth a hair under $40M for four years, which is just about as high on a per-year basis, even though he’s likely to cost less.

Still looks like a serious money-loser to me though. Now, if they could sign him for ONE year for $15M, then that might be worth it.

One of the things that becomes clear from doing these back-of-envelope calculations is that shorter-term contracts are more likely to make sense than longer-term ones, because you can more accurately time your expenditures to when they’ll do the most good in terms of probability of reaching the playoffs.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Except that the competition is offering more years

and contracts are guaranteed. Value-smart, but unlikely to actually work.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your position regarding incentives to small market teams may or may not have merit, but it's not relevant

to the A’s. They are a big market team that through repeated whining and misrepresentations has convinced some people that they play in a small market. There is no good reason why their “market” is not at least as big as the Giants’ market. They are probably the most underachieving team in terms of potential value to actual value of any in the major leagues

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

perhaps, but the potential market doesn't come to the games for whatever reason.

which makes their actual market small.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think there's some semantic misunderstanding

with the use of the term “small market”. Many who use it — including those who speak for the team — are referring to the specific market for the product of a baseball club (ie, ticket sales, TV revenues, etc). Others are reading the term in the more generic sense of population and disposable income. The two are related, of course, but they’re not the same thing.

Setting aside Oakland, consider Seattle vs Miami: Seattle is a far bigger market in the first sense, but Miami is clearly a bigger market in the second sense.

Note also that, with regard to TV specifically, Oakland and San Francisco are in the same market by virtue of MLB’s broadcasting agreements.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

There's no good reason why a team that plays in Oakland

doesn’t have as good a market as a team that plays in San Francisco?

That comment is so obviously nonsense that it refutes itself just by me repeating it.

Oakland’s actual market is about 1.5-2 million mostly lower-middle-class and poor people. That’s not the worst in MLB, but it sure ain’t anything to write home about.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fans have "nonsense" sensibilities when it comes to teams

Despite being in the same market, I imagine there are some people who have “city pride” in SF just like the Oakland-only crowd does.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sure, and Bronx residents have pride too, but the Yankees and Mets play in the

same market. Southsiders have pride, but the Cubs and White Sox play in the same market.

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

In Chicago, at least...

…the two teams may share the market, but they have very separate and distinct fan bases. There is probably less cross-over between teams than in any of the other two-team markets, even New York.

Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.

by UncleLeo on Aug 29, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

It takes like 45 minutes to drive to Oakland at rush hour, maybe more

If you don’t think that that has an impact on whether someone (especially the someones who have money, who tend to be busy someones) over here decides to go to an A’s game or a Giants game, I mean, I don’t know where to begin.

That’s leaving aside the whole city-pride angle, which is probably overrated but does have some meaning.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Weak

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Apparently San Diego plays in the same market as the Dodgers too

After all, people COULD decide to spend four hours driving there and back!

Hell, all of California is really the same market. It’s only a two-days’ trip, right? Why are the A’s not tapping into the Los Angeles fanbase? Where’s the marketing in Yreka? Klamath Falls is just waiting for someone to reach out to them.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hyperbole and as much as I agree about your overall point aside

CA is a two day trip? There’s nowhere in CA for you could have to go between that you couldn’t do driving in one day. At least none that I’m aware of.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Aug 27, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't forget the return trip

No one’s driving from Klamath to LA and back in the same day

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

'Course not

It’s almost impossible to escape from klamath. Hell, took me 4 years!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh, from there man?

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!

by cuppingmaster on Aug 27, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Moved there by choice a while back

Oops.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

wow i use to think you were a smart muppet.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Needed the job

At least… I thought I did at the time.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah...

Well sure… if you want to get all technical on me. I retract my previous statement and now fully support PT’s hyperbole and argument.

Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples

Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.

If the eggs actually hatch I made more than a mistake, I made some scientifically impossible crime.

by DMOAS on Aug 27, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Even weaker

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 27, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Where did this come from?
Oakland’s actual market is about 1.5-2 million mostly lower-middle-class and poor people.

Supposedly the Oakland hills and further east bay was one of the more affluent areas in the Bay?

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden

"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo

by ST on Aug 27, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

You'd have to ask Paul

cuz I have no idea.

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just a guess

I mean obviously there isn’t really a half-million-person uncertainty about how many people actually live in the East Bay.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what?

The A’s regularly spend $60M on players. CC would be a wiser way to spend that money than Ben Sheets, who generated about $0 in revenue.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

PT, do you really think Crawford wont have a career year in the next 5 years?

He’s 28, I can see him really exploding next year and in 2012….sort of like what happened with Miguel Tejada. With great players, age 29-34 years are sometimes very profitable ones.

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

All I can say is that it is more likely that he has already had what will turn out to be the best year of his career

than that he has not yet had that year.

Anything is possible. Analysis is only concerned with what is likely.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Did you see Maury Brown's latest on this?

Using the Rays as an example, he makes the case that owners do want to win, in spite of the fact that it’s a money-losing venture to do so. Judging from the leaked financial statements, it appears that the Rays are actually worse off financially for having make their big run at greatness. If they had continued to be cheap and sucky, like the Pirates, they’d have been more profitable. And yet, they went for it anyway.

It’s an interesting discussion, and I still haven’t decided what I think of it all. I do think you can’t just assume that money is the only motivation and teams will never try to win if they aren’t financially rewarded for doing so. I also think the recent wave of criticism against revenue sharing is misguided. People are complaining that revenue sharing enables teams to suck and still be profitable. That’s true but the alternative is just that the sucky teams still suck but they go broke relative to the other teams to boot. And when teams to want to make a run for it, as the Rays did, revenue sharing makes that possible; they couldn’t have done it without it. I think the same would apply to the A’s.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

what about Value for ROI?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 27, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

All of this ignores franchise valuation.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Franchise valuation" is hand-waving

Value comes from moneymaking potential. Spending money on Carl Crawford might marginally increase the moneymaking potential of the team (by creating more fans) but compared to location, income of fanbase, facilities, management, etc. it’s really trivial.

It still looks like a loser unless you think Crawford is creating like $5M worth of future fan value every season.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or you think that these things steamroll

There’s almost a $600 million spread even excluding the Yankees, so if winning a couple championships won a generation of fans (see, e.g., the 49ers) it could easily make financial sense.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

And by "r" you mean

“Oops, I meant to hit cancel” ?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

It didn't get a lot more in TV contracts 10 years ago...

In fact, the A’s only recently improved their TV contract— while in an extended period of suck— whereas apparently 8 straight winning seasons were not enough to even get a TV contract which covered all the night games (forget about weekday day games).

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 30, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok

Nonetheless, surely you’ll concede that there is a rational argument for not spending money on free agents, n’est ce pas?

If Wolff says “F&^* it, I want a winner” and slams his checkbook on the table, like I said, I’ll be the first one to cheer. But I can’t say he’d be irrational not to.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, I will indeed concede that.

I didn’t mean my comment to be a rebuttal to your italicized point, only a pointer to an interesting discussion on the same topic. (Oh, and I should have provided a link to the story.)

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why would you cheer this?
If Wolff says "F&^* it, I want a winner" and slams his checkbook on the table, like I said, I’ll be the first one to cheer

You’re on record as being like Glum from the Lilliputians here and here just a few days ago.

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 27, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he wants to donate his money for my enjoyment,

I’ll shake his hand and call him “mister.”

I’m just not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

What else is Beane going to say
This is why I was so annoyed during the Tafoya interview when Beane mentioned that any upgrades to the offense will need to come from within the organization.

I think it would be tampering/bad form/stupid to say “We really like CC, and hope to sign him after the season”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 10:00 AM PDT reply actions  

Reply fail to Taj.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

He can talk in generalities

i.e. “we know that what we’ve done on offense this season hasn’t really worked, so we’ll need to address that in the offseason” or something such.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe

But he likes not telling people what he’s going to do. And he gains nothing by saying that

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not that he does or even should care...

but something to that effect would at least reassure the fanbase that the organization is looking at all angles to address the problems of the team on the field.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Aug 27, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Right, he could have said

We are open to all options, free agency, trade, within the organization. Something that wasn’t a flat “no”

by Billy Frijoles on Aug 27, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think all the talk that Beane is being crafty or coy,

trying to deceive other GMs or improve his bargaining position with agents, is wishful thinking.

Yes, of course it’s true that things can change, and anything is still possible. Nevertheless, if Billy Beane says he’s not looking to sign any big free agents this off-season, I think the primary meaning one has to take from that is there is less chance than we had hoped that he will sign any big free agents this off-season. To turn that around as if it somehow means the exact opposite is just denial.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying it means the opposite

I’m saying it means nothing.

There’s no other good answer to the question than “I really like the 25 guys I have”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 27, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I say it often here

but never believe anything you hear from peoples mouths.

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 27, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not only Crawford, but sign Olivo & Hudson as well.

and trade the overrated Suzuki to Boston for whatever we can get. Kurt is fast looking like the second coming of Bobby Crosby at the plate DO. NOT. WANT.

LF: Crawford
CF: Crisp
1B: Barton
DH: Cust
2B: Hudson
3B: Kouzmanoff
SS: Pennington
C: Olivo
RF: Davis/Sweeney

With our pitching, this might be all we need, shades of the 85 Cardinals for sure. This lineup is stealing 250 bases, easily.

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 10:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Great work grover. Agree 100%.

We can afford Crawford if we want to. Now We just have to figure out if we really want to.

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 27, 2010 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

wasn't the scuttlebut that Wolff was pushing for the Holliday deal?

I remember reading that here, it could have been bloggers speculating, but if it were true, why wouldn’t crawford make more sense than Holliday?

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 27, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure that was just people with excessive hero-worship for Beane

refusing to admit that in that particular instance, what looked like a profoundly stupid trade was, in fact, just a profoundly stupid trade.

Beane himself has never done anything but take responsibility for the move.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember reading that, but

my impression was someone tossed it out as a speculative possibility, and then others latched onto it. It later got repeated as if it were established truth, but I don’t think it was ever based on any actual quote or anything. (But if I’m wrong, I’d happy for someone to point me to the evidence.)

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think PT is right

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 27, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't like this post.

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Aug 27, 2010 11:30 AM PDT reply actions  

I LOVE IT!

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Aug 27, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

But will you rec it?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course!

AN: Where you will be an A's fan or Dallas Braden will show you the repercussions of your actions.

by stranahanahan on Aug 27, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

What a well written article

It should be an interesting off-season for the A’s.

by Brian Here on Aug 27, 2010 12:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Hopefully

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well done, grover.

You know how skeptical I am about money and budgetary scenarios, but your assessment of 2011 and 2012 look quite reasonable to me.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Thank you

Out of curiousity, was there something off with my 2013 projections?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, sorry.

No, I didn’t mean to imply anything bad about your 2013. I just think that 2013 sufficiently far off that there are too many unknowns to really say much about it at all.

Even 2012 I think has to be considered with the understanding that a whole lot could change, but for 2013 I don’t even want to try to guess. Therefore for 2013 I have no opinion on your projections one way or the other.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fair 'nuff

Thanks.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will add the 24th rec.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Aug 27, 2010 2:34 PM PDT reply actions  

This post needs 100+

seriously.

-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.

by PL78 on Aug 27, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I NEEDED THIS.

thank you, thank you grover.

Needs moar dingerz.

by Blicks on Aug 27, 2010 3:16 PM PDT reply actions  

Welcome

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

how much is the skinny free agent in the window???

the one with the gangly arm…..

alaska A currently residing in northern Idaho. --- theme for august = remain calm and try to truly enjoy a .500 team.

by ak_A on Aug 27, 2010 4:43 PM PDT reply actions  

It costs 1 measely rec...

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well not only did I rec this post

I absolutely loved it and I wouldn’t put a trade for another COF out of the scenario either. As I was reading this post I was watching the A’s and Rangers game. Needless to say there wasn’t much to watch after Brett Anderson gave up those first four runs and this post was far more entertaining!….except for one thing. How does this relate to the post?

 In analyzing the roster depth for the next several years, I’m not so sure the A’s don’t acquire another bat, COF number 2, thru trading one of the 5 starters. Now you listed all the starters on the big club and the several that are in the minors that provide the “depth” of a starting 5.

After watching the rest of the game I have to say that Boof Bonser did not pitch too shabby for not pitching in 10 days and having to come in cold in the bottom of the third. He did give up three runs but actually looked pretty decent and the Rangers were getting all kinds of little bloop and infield hits all night.

Is it possible that Bonser might be a viable alternative 5th starter in place of either Mazzaro or Braden? Mazzaro obviously would be a sexier name when dealing with a potential trade partner(s) but Braden isn’t exactly chopped liver either. At any rate, I have said it in other threads as well, but I believe that the A’s could acquire one bat thru FA and the other via trade. Start with one of those two as the centerpiece and depending on who we’re talking about trading for, figure out the other pieces when you cross that bridge. Matt Kemp’s name keeps coming up in many discussions and I think it would not cost the A’s an arm and a leg (no pun intended!) to get him like it would to get Shin Soo Choo. I would very much be in favor of this possible move

Or there’s the whole signing Brandon Webb to a super low base salary with incentives type of deal to be your 5th starter if you don’t like Bonser etc….

At any rate, a totally bitchin post and great work as usual grover!

Mazeltov!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 27, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Any thoughts on my proposal(s)?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Bonser could fit the 5th starter role in a

Lenny Dinardo sort of way. That is, every time he starts we all bite our nails and hope he doesn’t get lit up, and every time he survives a game we wipe the sweat off our brow and say, “whew!”

That’s actually pretty normal for a 5th starter, but here in Oakland I think we’re spoiled and expect that any starter ought to be able to get through six innings giving up no more than two runs.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds about right re: Boof

Assuming Ross doesn’t go TJ on us, the A’s could consider Bonser (who still has an option I believe) Ross, Outman, Mortensen as viable SP depth.

To answer mrod’s specific question… yeah, I think it’s very possible that the A’s trade for another bat although not necessarily a Corner OF. And I think Kemp will cost an arm and leg to acquire.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 28, 2010 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd say Buck's arm and Ross' legs.

Ross doesn’t use his legs when he pitches; Buck doesn’t use his arms to hit.

A's Fan in Sweden

by travdog6 on Aug 28, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually the A's have quite a few "okay fifth starter" types around

There’s also Yadel Marti and Bobby Cramer now. And Simmons had shoulder surgery but they didn’t find any major damage, so hopefully he’ll be back (and not terrible like he was in 2009) next year.

If they pick up a vet, that’s fine, but I’d actually be fine dealing Braden or Mazzaro and going with the existing group.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 28, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

thank you

At some point, we’re acquiring SP depth simply to hoard it. If we have 9 potential SPs, that’s plenty, especially considering that if starter 9 manages to get any significant innings, none of this matters anyways.

Considering we do have so much, I’m with PT in dealing one of those guys and using them to acquire better hitters.

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Aug 28, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Finally

I’m seeing people who feel the same as I do. It sure is nice having 5 good-great starters but we don’t absolutely need them all in order to compete.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Aug 28, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about those currently on the 40 man...

Which could include Simmons next year.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 28, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep

Cuban defector. Used to play for their national team. Not flashy but definitely a potential veteran workhorse.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 29, 2010 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Take out Bonser and put in Clay Mortensen

and I say absolutely yes. Huge Mortensen believer here.

And, the question is: can ONE of Bonser, Mortensen, Outman, or Ross be a viable 5th starter going forward? This isn’t factoring in bringing in cheap SP depth via FA.

Considering that the return/recovery rates are relatively high for TJS as opposed to other surgical procedures, despite his setbacks, I still want to say yes on Outman.

Needs moar dingerz.

by Blicks on Aug 28, 2010 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

why are you a mortensen believer

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 28, 2010 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see Mortensen get some innings

come September. His one start he made in Cleveland early this year was pretty damn good, although SSS. He looks to have pretty decent velocity and good movement on his pitches, and the command seems to be a bit better this year. I kinda like the kid myself and he would probably get my vote for a 5th starter spot next year if the A’s were to deal Mazzaro or Braden in the winter.

Also, why would Kemp cost an arm and a leg? Isn’t he only under control for 1 more year?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 28, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

2 more years

This year was his first arbitration season. His existing contract just locks in his salary for next season; it doesn’t make him a free agent when it expires.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 29, 2010 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for clarifying PT

Still, there must be a package that Beane can come up with that is fair for the Dodgers and doesn’t screw the A’s. That’s all I’m saying…

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 30, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Beane could arrange to have...

…Cust “off” McCourt’s wife.

Ok, that was in bad taste.

Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.

by UncleLeo on Aug 30, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

grover, i love the work that you do. thanks

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 27, 2010 7:41 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm curious..

do people assume that MACBG will continue their hot streak into next year? While I’m typically an optimist, the realist in me expects them to decline back to somewhere between 2009 and 2010 performance:

- Anderson (scary that he’s starting to get random health issues)
- Cahill (hopes that he doesn’t regress to his FIP numbers)
- Mazzaro (i still believe he is really a #5 starter and his FIP shows it)
- Gio (Hope that Mr. Hyde doesn’t show up next year)
- Braden (I don’t think the Jaime Moyer types will decline much)

The reason why I ask is if we go all in on Crawford, and the pitching is mediocre, we’re really screwed!

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden

"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo

by ST on Aug 27, 2010 8:55 PM PDT reply actions  

I'll bite

in that I see trading Mazz while his value is high and inserting one of Ross, Outman, (if he’s healthy) Bonser, or signing someone like Brandon Webb as the 5th starter. I was opposed to this idea previously but I am starting to look at Vinny the same way you are ST. Mazzaro will have really good games and give you innings and won’t really go to up or down but I doubt he’ll ever light the world on fire.

But he does have value because he’s young, healthy, and has 5 years of team control left so there will definitely teams interested in him this off season. I definitely think Matt kemp could be had with a package that includes Mazzaro and it could also perhaps net the A’s one of LA’s fringe prospects. Just my two cents…….Go A’s!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kemp + PTBNL

for Mazarro + Ross + Buck? Get er’ done already!

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden

"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo

by ST on Aug 27, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I second that notion ST!

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

As opposed to the alternative?
if we go all in on Crawford, and the pitching is mediocre, we’re really screwed!

I don’t see that we’re any more screwed than if we don’t go all in on Crawford and the pitching is mediocre.

If our pitching is mediocre next year, that’s bad news no matter how you slice it. If we actually have some semblance of an offense, it would slightly lessen the pain.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

But I don't think the pitching will be mediocre iglew

Even if the A’s do trade one of the starting five ( I’m using Mazzaro or Braden for the sake of argument here ) I still think the A’s would be covered by one of the other pitchers on the depth chart or signing a cheap FA pickup.

At least the A’s won’t be counting on Sheets or Duke again next year so that’s at least a positive, right?

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 28, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nor do I.

I thought ST was suggesting the possibility as a reason not to get a hitter.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 29, 2010 3:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh I see.....

:)

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 30, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think most people are underestimating the cost of elite FA's

There is no way Jason Werth is signing for four years, $55-60 as suggested somewhere above. He’s a better player than Jason Bay and he will be paid as such.

Crawford will get nine figures. He has no incentive to sign a deal for less than 6 years.

And those are conservative estimates for them if they were to sign in desirable situations. We’re hypothesizing what it would take for these guys to sign in Oakland, and no one seems to want to factor in what I’ll refer to from here on out as The ST (Shithole Tax).

The ST is going to raise the price of signing in Oakland by at least 10%, right?

We know that Teixeira was offered ~$190M+ to play for the Nationals. Instead he took $180M to play for the Yankees.

We don’t know how much money it would’ve taken from the Nationals in order to persuade Tex to sign there. We do know that at least $10M more than his second-best offer wasn’t enough money to convince him to go play in an undesirable situation.

Grover’s post suggests a five-year, $95M deal, which sounds excellent, but my point is that at least one team in a more desirable situation than the A’s will offer him that amount – be it the Yankees, Dodgers, Angels, or Red Sox. Do all those teams already have significant salary commitments? Sure. But just as grover astutely postulates that the A’s could trade our SPs for cheaper parts as the SPs get expensive in the later years of Crawford’s deal, so too could the Dodgers/Angels make a trade this offseason to clear salary and sign him. The salary-clearing possibilities of trading a desirable major leaguer work for all teams that would be in the hunt for his services.

The Shithole Tax is gonna be pricey. I’ve already stated my figure – a heavily frontloaded, eight-year, $140M deal. Everyone else thinks it’s too much, which probably means that it’s actually enough to convince him, whereas the popular proposals are popular because they aren’t realistic. They don’t factor in the Shithole Tax.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Aug 27, 2010 9:11 PM PDT reply actions   3 recs

Rec'd for imagery alone

I laughed.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Aug 27, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm going to cry

I’m now referred to as the Shithole Tax! :(

"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."

"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff

"Just play for the name in front of the uniform.." - Dallas Braden

"Oakland is the emotional choice, and could still work, but San Jose really is the best choice." - UncleLeo

by ST on Aug 27, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's alright ST

I still like ya…

:)

"By the end of the year, I'll have Dallas throwing right-handed'' -Ben Sheets

by mrod on Aug 27, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's your fault we can't have good players!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 27, 2010 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

There there...

Way to be a jerk NSJ!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 28, 2010 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bay is 4/$66 and heavily backloaded

What say you for Werth?

!#%&$#@&%&% antioxidants! - pam

by cuppingmaster on Aug 28, 2010 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bay has a 5th year option that's very easily attainable...

that pushes the total value to $80M. That deal is basically a 5 year, $80M deal.

Werth will get five guaranteed years and $80-90M, I’d imagine.

Both Werth and Crawford benefit from something that hindered Holliday and Bay last year – teams can’t say, “Wait ’til next year.”

The teams that weren’t in love with Holliday knew they could wait a year and bid on Werth or Crawford. But next year’s FA class has zero elite OFs. And the class after that is headlined by Sizemore, who is at the crossroads of his career and could go either way at this point.

Point being: This might be the last offseason to bolster your OF on the FA market for a while. That inflates the market for Crawford and Werth.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Aug 29, 2010 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Where I may be wrong is my assumption of the annual payment

I agree that Crawford could get a 6+ year guarantee offer but at this time I don’t see him getting $17 million annual as part of that package… I don’t see him getting Holliday money. I see Crawford getting offers at around $15 million annual which is why 5 years averaging $19 million makes sense to me.

I also agree that the Oakland Tax (look at me being all PG) is going to be pricey. My guess is a 15% bump to make a deal happen.

Where I disagree with you is the idea that Crawford would agree to a near-precedent setting front-loaded deal like you’ve suggested. MLB free agents like contracts that increase as time goes on or at least offer a consistent annual salary.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 28, 2010 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

I still disagree with this part
MLB free agents like contracts that increase as time goes on or at least offer a consistent annual salary.

We argued this a few days ago in my thread about Crawford.

We don’t really know that players prefer this. We know that the vast majority of FA deals end up looking like this, but we don’t know that players prefer it. Far more likely is that teams prefer to defer the payments, and that the vast majority of deals are either consistent money or backloaded because the vast majority of offers look that way.

An agent could very easily explain to a player the economics of why it’s better to receive as much of the money possible up front.

Now, getting specific to Crawford: It makes sense for the A’s to frontload their offer to Crawford because now is when the A’s have the most money freed up. If they continue to be in contention a few years down the road, when the pitching staff is in the later years of arbitration, it will be hard to sell off key components of a contention run for prospects. If Crawford makes $25M in 2010, and $15M when the pitchers reach year 2 and 3 of arby, they won’t need to deal off Cahill, Anderson, or Gio in order to stay within their payroll constraints.

The other benefit here for the A’s is that it makes Crawford a far more liquid asset in his 30s if the A’s end up struggling or not getting a stadium plan together. Crawford at age 34, making $15M for 2-3 more years, is more likely to be a tradeable asset than if he were making $20-22M.

Frontloading the money is a strategy which can separate the A’s from the other offers. We know that no one else is going to give him $25M in year one. And they will need to separate themselves from other offers because of the ST.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Aug 29, 2010 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

So you think the reason no free agent gets a front loaded contract

is because no team has ever thought to make that kind of offer?

And being a more “tradeable asset” works completely in the team’s favor, not the player’s. I imagine very few players go into a situation thinking: “I’m going to sign a 7 year deal with Oakland and move my family across the country… find a new home and new school(s) for my kid(s) and the hope to get traded in 3 years.”

I think if you can’t imagine a scenario where Crawford signs a more traditional contract with the A’s then there’s no hope of it happening.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 29, 2010 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can imagine either

But I think it’s fair to wonder whether teams want to frontload. Given $X million, it seems to me teams would prefer to delay payment as much as possible (time value of money). It follows that the player would prefer the opposite.

It’s entirely possible that players would prefer a flat contract to provide steady income, but I think there’s more to it than “no team has ever thought to make that kind of offer”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 29, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

All I know is front loaded contracts are extremely rare in baseball

To hope/assume/plan/whatever that the A’s sign Crawford using such an infrequent method seems self-defeating.

Speaking of which… I had hopes that this post would hit at least 300 comments plus a few more recs.

Excuse me… Iz hassing a sad.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 29, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

35 isn't enough for you?

And if you wanted 300 comments you should have put a grammatical error in the subject line, or say that Jack Cust sucks.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 29, 2010 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nekst tyme I'll no...

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 29, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking of recs

Congratulations, grover, and welcome to the 30+ club ;-)

"Good thing you can't hit, otherwise everybody would hate you"
– H.J.S., my ex coach (while drunkenly talking to me during a team visit to a strip joint)

by elcroata on Aug 30, 2010 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think a lot is that its pretty easy to agree with you on this one g

What we’re asking is for people to stop pretending that ipse dixit counts as a "source." When you make a claim about baseball, you should be willing to put some reasonable amount of effort into explaining why it’s correct if someone asks you to. That’s basic respect for the other poster. - PT

by designatedforassignment on Aug 29, 2010 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kust strikkkouts too mulch!!!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 29, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I could care less what the stats say.

Jack Cust just isn’t good at baseball!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 29, 2010 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That I'll agree with.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 29, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Standings Watch:

The A’s currently have the 17th best record in baseball.

They have to finish 16th or worse in order to have a protected first-round draft pick.

If they win 20 games in September and finish with the 14th or 15th best record, and have to surrender the #17 overall pick in the draft in order to sign Crawford (or Werth), I think it would be a bad decision.

I only like Crawford to the A’s if the first-round draft pick is preserved.

"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango

by notsellingjeans on Aug 29, 2010 6:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Definitely an issue...

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 29, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Go tigers, go mets!!!

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Aug 29, 2010 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Go A's!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

by iglew on Aug 29, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great post, grover

Very clearly done, very enjoyable. I rec’d it.

by el generico on Aug 30, 2010 4:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Thank you

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 30, 2010 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I couldn't bear to see you so close to 300

without getting there. Sign Carl Crawford! If they sign him to a 5- or 6-year contract, he might even still be playing in an Oakland uniform when I get back to the US!

by el generico on Sep 2, 2010 8:09 AM PDT reply actions  

agreed

"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes

by Future Ed on Sep 3, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

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