Rajai Davis, Stolen Bases, and WPA
I've never seen stolen base WPA available to look up, but it's simple to sum up and calculate. And the results are interesting enough to play around with in several different ways.
- Rajai Davis has a -1.47 WPA over this season, which means that he's cost the A's almost one and a half wins below an average player offensively. Remember that what separates WPA from other stats is that it's context-sensitive, which means that it takes situations and "clutchness" into account. Furthermore, if you add up only his positive contributions, you get 5.88 wins. His negative contributions come out to -7.35 wins. His WPA just from stolen bases and times caught stealing? 0.392. Stealing bases is a very, very minor part of a player's production, even for a blazingly fast speedster like Rajai Davis.
- In fact, if you break down that WPA figure by event, you get the following chart. Even if he had never been caught once, his legs would have only contributed 0.68 wins.

- We can calculate Rajai's break-even rate for steals, using his data from this season. Now, this is in no way a large enough sample to mean much, but it can be interesting nonetheless. If we only look at his 2010 steals and times caught going from 1B to 2B, the rate of successful steals needed to create a net positive effect is 74.6%. The usual quoted number? 75%.
- And lastly, how good is Rajai at picking his spots? The win probability model has a stat built in called "Clutch", which compares performance that's context-sensitive to performance that's context-neutral (more information here). We can repurpose that stat and only look at WPA that comes from stolen bases. Instead of measuring clutchness, it would instead show whether a player is picking spots to steal that are more advantageous. Rajai's stolen base clutch score? A slightly negative -0.018. That's actually quite impressive, because it's obviously easier to steal when a successful stolen base wouldn't impact the game much. The fact that his stolen base clutch score is nearly positive means that he can almost take a base whenever he would like, even if the defense would very much rather he wouldn't. For contrast, Coco Crisp's stolen base clutch score is -0.072 with half as many stolen bases as Rajai.
New slugger Chris Carter and the A's attempt to get up off of the floor tonight at 7:10. We've got a matchup of two strong aces, Brett Anderson and Felix Hernandez.
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Convince me why I should believe WPA is a useful statistic.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Aug 10, 2010 7:05 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Dan or anyone?
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Anyone is fine
I’m usually a big fan of his posts, but I found this one lacking for a number of reasons. The reader is left to conclude that Rajai Davis is not merely an average player, but one that’s actually harmful to the A’s chances of winning baseball games (though the results actually contradict this, as they win considerably more often when he plays). We’re presented with numbers, but little context for those numbers, and no reason to believe they’re either conclusive or useful. Some hints are provided that this may not be the case, but they are similarly shrouded in mystery.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
As for Rajai
I don’t think that the reader “is left to conclude that Rajai Davis is not merely an average player, but one that’s actually harmful to the A’s chances of winning baseball games”.
Regardless of the usefulness of WPA, the post says that it is only taking in consideration offense and concludes that using this specific metric:
Rajai Davis has a -1.47 WPA over this season, which means that he’s cost the A’s almost one and a half wins below an average player offensively
A’s suck on offense. They scored almost 50 runs less than an average AL offense this year – or about 5 wins worth of offense. That means that while replacing Rajai on offense with a league average player would increase the A’s chance to win, the same can be said for most any other player not named Cust or Barton.
A’s do not have league average offensive players in the lineup for most part and much less on the bench. Therefor “replacing Rajai with a league average offensive player” is not really an option. Being below average in the league and above average on the A’s is, unfortunately, not a contradiction.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
That's some additional meaningful context
Put more simply, I see numbers in the post, but little in the way of what they might mean.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Exactly
How do the rest of the A’s hitters fair when held to the same standard? Davis may be worth -1.47 WPA offensively this season and that could be the 4th best score on the roster! Numbers without context are pretty much worthless.
The monster at the end of this blog.
He's last on the team in WPA
Kurt Suzuki is 1st at +0.52
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions
That does not give me much faith in the statistic.
What does WPA see in Suzuki’s 2010 performance that I don’t?
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Aug 10, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Tallest midget
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
It doesn’t measure performance as a whole.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 10, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
What does it see in his offensive performance?
Clutchiness, I guess. He’s nowhere near the best offensive player on the team.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'm taking it to mean he needs to be clutchier, which I'm sure he's trying to do anyway
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Well given that he's 3 runs above average offensively by wRC+ and baserunning
replacing him with an average guy wouldn’t add wins. It’s replacing him with a clutchier guy that would add wins.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I was explaining the concept
and how one could be both below average and above average at the same time. I did not have any data on Rajai, so I stand corrected as far as his offensive production is concerned.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Rajai is 2.5 BRAA and Trevor Cahill is 2.4 Pitching Runs Above Average on statcorner
This amuses me.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
It's uplifting and puts me in a good mood.
It tells me there’s no need to feel down, and I can pick myself off the ground. It calls me “young man” which almost no one does anymore. It tells me there’s a place I can go where I can feel better. Granted I’ve not been to a YMCA in 40 years, but I just replace that with “bar” and it still works.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
I'm glad you're feeling well enough to dance
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Well it's more like I'm rolling around in bed...but I'm doing it with a funky beat
But seriously, folks....
I taught my son the 'nudie dance.'
Which he does before every bath.
by LoneStranger on Aug 10, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I've found my students learn best when I just give them the answers
plus it also allows me to take a nap for the rest of the class.
But seriously, folks....
Turned it green
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Has the YMCA rebranded in the US?
over here, it’s now just called… Y.
Which certainly begs a question
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
The ninth fastest thirty year old in San Francisco
I don't know which question it begs for you, but for it's "where are you, bobnothing"?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
(jumps off couch and does a Y-M-C-A with arms -startles cat due to added yelling of ymca)
alaska A currently residing in northern Idaho. --- theme for august = sweep or click.
a couple of things
- The context sensitivity of WPA allows us to look at the clutch rating for Rajai’s steals, which I think is an interesting result.
- As a “small ball” type tactic, stolen bases are mostly useful when you need a small number of runs (why you don’t see many stolen bases in a 10 run blowout). That provides some incentive for using a statistic that takes the closeness of the game into account. I think this argument is often cited by Rajai defenders — the A’s play in a lot of low scoring games (and have a crappy offense), so a guy who can manufacture a run will be especially useful.
- That said, I think it would also be useful to look at the contribution from Rajai’s SB in a context neutral way. Has anyone calculated good linear weights for baserunning events?
Or is your question about whether or not WPA is calculated in a valid way? I think it’s a particularly well defined stat, both intuitive and based on large samples of data.
In addition to playing in close games, I've heard that a low scoring environment also favors
players who can make things happen with fewer positive batting events, e.g. HR and SB. While the Coliseum suppresses HR, it does not suppress SB so that makes him suitable for the park and scoring environment, I think.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
different scoring environments
are one thing that could be a significant flaw in WPA. We know that the coliseum suppresses scoring, but I don’t know exactly how that affects win probabilities. It might be very significant, since those probabilities are very non-linear with runs scored.
It is accounted for
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I understand those three points
What I don’t understand from the post is any context for what the numbers mean. How does Davis compare to peers in these regards? I do also have questions about the validity of WPA. I have little doubt it’s based on lots of data, but I don’t know what that data is, how it’s collected, or what it’s trying to measure (other than “win probability”).
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
WPA works this way
It looks at a game situation and the factors are:
1. Inning (1-9, extra innings are treated as 9th)
2. Runs differential (-11 to +11, scores above are treated as 11)
3. Outs (0-2)
4. Base runners (6 combinations)
that is over 8000 different scenarios.
It then looks in the database with over 9 mil. game situations, finds all that fit the mold and says how often a team won when faced with such a situation. That’s WP (Win Probability)
After a player has finished his PA, it looks att the new situation and calculates WP again. The difference is the individual WPA ( Win Probability Added). It also adjusts the situation for the context a bit (low scoring games from 1930s or playing in Colorado and so on).
So, it values a single with two outs in a tie game more than it does a grand slam in a blowout, for example, as the difference in win probability before and after the batter did his thing is greater.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I didn't know about
the adjustments for context. How do they do that? Is it just by limiting their sample (i.e. just games in Colorado)? Or some formula to do it, maybe based on linear weights or something?
I believe taht Fangraphs and baseball-reference do it differently
Baseball-reference:
Now that we can get WE and RE for a particular run scoring environment what environment should we use for a given park. There are a couple of options:
* Look at RS/27outs scored in that ballpark for the year. For example, Padres home games averaged 3.65 R/27outs in 2009.
* Look at the league run scoring for league home games. The 2009 NL home game averaged 4.48 runs/27outs.
* Take the league run scoring and then apply our park factor to it. The Padres PPF was 87, so we take 4.48 * .87 and get 3.90 R/27outs as our run environment.
Baseball-Reference.com uses the last technique. I can see arguments for any of the above, but I feel that since we are comparing a player’s performance to an “average team” the average team scores 4.48runs/27outs and in Petco they would score 3.90 runs/27outs.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Thanks for the additional detail.
Why is an extra inning valued the same as a ninth inning? It’s inherently more important to the outcome of a baseball game than the ninth inning. Also, i have a hard time seeing how it can accurately measure baserunning if it’s dependent on the outcome of a plate appearance.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I don't think extra innings are more important than the 9th
If you are winning at the end of the 9th, then you win the game. If you are winning at the end of the 10th, then you win the game. And so on.
So the A's need to get better at being ahead after the 9th, 10th and so on?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
There is no difference of importance of a certain score in 9th or 12th, as colin said.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I get it now.
I was forgetting that the run differential is also being considered. I would think there would be some variance in games that were especially long, because you start running out of pitchers that are any good, but it happens too infrequently to be meaningful.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Exactly
I think there are some fine differences, but ignoring them will still get a decent result.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
It doesn't measure baserunning
Only SB and CS. Everything else is attributed 100% to batter or pitcher. That is one of WPA shortcomings, but an understandable one, as it is hard to split the “glory” of a single and of advancing first to third on that same single. How much should the batter get, how much the base runner?
So, back to Rajai, if he does that very well (running first to third and such), it will not benefit him, but the batter who put the ball in play.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Right
But how/why can even SB/CS be considered in the context of a plate appearance, other than the fact that it could end one if it’s not successful?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
It is not really considered in the context of a plate appearance
but rather in addition to it.
There are other events, apart from PA themselves, that can lead to a new game situation.
Wild pitch, successful pick off or the one where the ball gets away or a passed ball for example. When these happen, nobody gets any credit for them. Simply the new game situation is connected to the plate appearance that is going on, and the batter has the new “starting win probability”.
With CS or SB, first the difference in situations is accounted for. How much less chance for a win is there, because there is one out more? Or, how much more, due to the runner being one base closer to home? That difference is assigned to the base runner and it is what Dan showed in his article.
After that, it proceeds as normal. The batter has the new starting baseline and whatever situation arises as a result of his plate appearance is measured against that and the difference assigned solely to him.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Right
Anything that changes the “state” of the game (i.e. runs, runners, and outs) produces a WPA number. You could do it for passed balls. You could do it for errors (although only manually, since there probably aren’t stats for what “should” have happened).
You can’t really break down the elements of the change in shape, though. There wouldn’t be a rigorous way to figure out when/if Rajai gets credit for turning first and second to first and third and if/when it’s the guy behind him hitting a single. (and the same, in reverse, for a Molina). You could fake at it, but you couldn’t know.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Yes. Which means that WPA is only one tool to evaluate with
It, for example, would not give ANY credit to Pennington in the Pirate game, when the mere threat of his stealing- based on the fact that everyone knows he is very fast- caused the pitcher to throw the ball away, then his speed allowed him to make it to third on that error, which caused a 2nd error- and his speed allowed him to score on that error. His value in that situation is his speed, combined with the knowledge that the Pirates play crummy defense. I guess it would lead to -WPA’s for the Pirates, but no + for Cliff, right? So, to say Rajai’s WPA is -1.47 for the year, and then to evaluate his value using only WPA, is inadequate.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Aug 10, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the runner would get credit for the passed ball advance
And the pitcher would get negative credit.
To say Rajai is -1.47 WPA is not to say that he’s a negative -3 win player, it is instead to say that if you add together all the impacts upon real game situations he is responsible for adds up to almost enough of a drag to lose three games.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Got it
Thanks. Last question, if you’ll entertain one more…what’s the magic that converts all of these player centric events into a meaningful representation of added (or lost) wins by the team?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
A database of everything baseball that has ever happened
Basically it’s calculating odds of victory given a game “state” and comparing it to the previous odds.
Before the first pitch, it’s 50-50. If you get the leadoff hitter, it’s something else (maybe 51-49). If the second guy hits a home run, it changes again (maybe 40-60).
The numbers defining the change are based upon how often teams win in those situations. It’s basically a run-expectancy graph on steroids.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Got it.
Is adding up these percentages to represent player performance fairly arbitrary, then?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Well
It doesn’t say anything about the player’s context-neutral ability. It does say how much they helped their team win in-context.
For example, I would look to WPA as (at minimum) a sanity check in an MVP debate, and I think it’s the relevant stat for tactical decision evaluation (IBB, sac bunts, SB)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
low scoring game implies not a lot of baserunners
makes me think “the better you are at getting on base the more you will contribute.”
makes me think “Rajai is not good at getting on base”
makes me think “rajai is less likely to get on in low scoring games”
makes me think “rajai probably won’t contribute in low scoring games”
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
But what Rajai does do -- steal bases -- is more valuable in low-scoring games
What he doesn’t do — get on base very often — is less damaging because in a low-scoring game, hardly anyone gets on base. Run environment usually doesn’t depress SB as much as hitting.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
we're screwed...
we’re mediocre at getting on base and then bad with risp (as the recent 0 for 35 makes clear).
sigh…
But on the positive side we make the opposition as bad as us when we're pitching and fielding
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, being *more* mediocre on offense would be an improvement
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
The thing is
We get people on base and they never make it home. SBs help the cause of making it home. But yeah, our lineup is a craphole of hitlessness so whatever.
by Billy Frijoles on Aug 10, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
I wonder if this is a complaint that a lot of fans have about their teams....
Is there any kind of newer type statistic that actually tells us where the A’s fit in when it comes to leaving people on base versus getting the run home?
Yep.
Daniel Moroz over at Beyond the Boxscore made a neat graph a few weeks ago about the amount of each team’s baserunners for every run scored. We’re in the bottom third.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/7/26/1583415/leaving-em-stranded
Also, the white dots show each team’s isolated power, which gives a nice little negative correlation.
Thanks
Giants fans are always complaining about leaving runners on base, but they’re in the exact middle.
A couple of interesting things here: The Angels, despite a .500 record, are near the top. And the A’s are the worst team in this context to have a winning record.
Well, they're kind of right
It takes the Giants 2.7 base runners to score a run. That’s a lot.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
But not in the context of both leagues.
It looks like around 2.63, though that’s neither here nor there. In the context of all of baseball, the Giants, Mets and Cards sit in the exact center of the chart.
One of the problems, I think, about judging the metrics of 2010 is that we’ve entered the post-PED/Amphetamine era, so hitting statistics have shifted a bit. We can’t judge this year completely in the context of previous years - only within the context of this year. And in that context, the Giants are average, absolutely average. They hit the median.
The A’s, on the other hand, suck.
Oh I know
It just feels like a lot, and it’s a lot more than some teams (nearly all of whom are good)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The Giants' strength, like the A's, is in the pitching
It’s funny. When you correlate pitching and this chart, you come up with a pretty good simulacrum of the actual won/lost record. Toronto might be an outlier though.
[insert repetitive rant about the much more likely scenario that what we are really in is the post-rabbit-baseball era here]
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
Holy crap, the Mariners.
It’s like they ground into bases-loaded triple plays every inning. Ones that should actually count, I mean.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Ya they need more than 3 baserunners to get 1 run. That's just terrible.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Needs to be seperated by league
Obviously need more runners in the NL
This graph suggests that, relative to their dismal power level,
the A’s are probably scoring MORE runs per baserunner than expected.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
My take
I think it has some merit because it is context sensitive and tries to eliminate a lot of luck which necessarily comes along when you do context sensitive stuff.
To simplify it extremely, it is like an improved RBI stat. Imagine a guy coming to bat with bases loaded every single time. Just by being very average he will collect great many RBI. But, he does not get penalized for the time where he does poorly.
WPA does penalize him in certain situations. Because there is a higher chance (or better said average result) on bases loaded one out than bases loaded two outs, he will get a negative contribution to his teams chances of scoring runs in that inning. Even more obvious is striking out with bases loaded and two outs. Whatever chance there was of scoring is gone now.
It has it shortcomings, but it is an interesting “additional” stat that shows how well people performed under differently important situations. Not more than that, though.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
It seems to me to be better as an evaluative stat than a predictive stat
That is, WPA wouldn’t have anything really to say about an unsustainably high BABIP, or an unsustainably low one, either. Not that either would change what happened, and thus how productive a player has been, but those would be very useful for projections.
Also, where replacement players are concerned, ideally we should be able to judge a player against a replacement level-guy with the same amount of luck. If someone’s BABIP is really low, it’s not fair to say “A replacement would be better!” because the generic replacement has an average BABIP. You’d have to compare him with an equally-lucky replacement.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
This is basically right
It isn’t a way to figure out a player’s talent, but a way to describe (fairly accurately) what they’ve done. In EC’s example, if I hit with the bases loaded and zero outs in a tie game every at bat, I’m going to have a huge WPA since my hits will add a ton and my outs won’t subtract all that much. If I’m Jack Cust, I get screwed by WPA because my bases-empty two-out walk when my team is down by 2 doesn’t produce much WPA at all.
I use it in GOGs as a way to identify the stars and goats of a particular series, and I think it is quite effective at that. I also think that it’s a valuable way to look at base runners, as they can choose to steal or not steal therefore making the WPA (in my mind) more important than a context-neutral measure. If Rajai’s actual effect were to cost us wins by attempting to steal, he should stop even if his context-neutral ability were a positive. The same goes for sac bunts.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
one very useful thing,
that offers more than a “what have you done for me lately” evaluation, is the point about Rajai being able to steal in more “clutch” situations than some other basestealers. If you pick the right spot (i.e. late innings of a tie game), then a stolen base can have a large impact. Of course, the other team knows this, so you can expect your success rate to go down.
But if Rajai is such a good basestealer that he can beat the pick-off moves and pitch outs and still get himself to second at a good rate, then that is a real advantage — and possibly the first ever use of the WPA clutch stat for useful player evaluation.
Thanks for doing these, Dan
It’s interesting that, on average, stealing third seems to have increased the chances of a win much more than stealing second. I also wonder why being a part of a double steal seems to be valued much less than a normal steal.
The idea of measuring the whole speed aspect of the game, and especially stealing bases, fascinates me. Probably because stealing bases was a big part of my game and I want to convince the world I was a good player, I guess.
But seriously, as soon as have my new database up, I think that SB will be the first thing I will tackle.
Among the things I would love to get some data on:
- Pitch selection with a steal threat on first and/or second
- Picking spots: counts, outs, runs ahead/behind where runners most often go
- Conversely: When are pitch outs thrown
And then something I want to do both for steals and bunts and it goes little in the WPA territory – break even on such actions. Or, how often did a steal attempt, for example, lead to a better result than staying put in a certain situation.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Thanks from me too, Dan.
This one tells me that Rajai has been a good player on offense, but not in the clutch, so it gives me hope that better things will come from him.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions
It seems like his steals of 3B are done at times where it matters more.
Six of his steals of 2B were worth 0.01 WPA or less.
And as far as the double steal, I know it’s not perfect, but I split the WPA in half, giving him credit for one of the two bases stolen.
Also if his Base Stealing WPA is .4 and his Base Stealing has added 2.5 runs per Dan Fox
then he’s certainly a clutch base stealer. His non-clutchness is when he’s batting.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I love watching guys steal bases but I enjoy 3 run home runs even more
which is why as much as I enjoy watching Rajai until he starts getting on base more he has limited value.
But seriously, folks....
His Fangraphs wRC+ is 106, which tells me he's an above average hitter/base stealer.
Fangraphs tells me that he’s been 2.5 batting runs above average, and Dan Fox’s baserunning numbers tell me that he’s been another .3 runs above average on the bases not counting SB/CS. So he’s been about 3 runs above average offensively. His value may be limited but it’s less limited than the average major leaguer on offense.
Defense is where he’s been lacking in 2010, and my unprovable suspicion is that it has something to do with being moved from position to position and maybe he’s lost a step. If he gets back above average defensively, he’s a good value for money.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fangraphs tells me I might have paid too much for this muffler
I want to like Rajai I really do and if it comes down to either him or Coco being on the team next year I’d lean towards Davis because he’s not made of glass.
But seriously, folks....
I'd like to pick him over Coco for that reason, but if I thought that his defense was
going to be as bad as it’s been this year, I’d probably look to bring in a real CF — either Coco or someone else.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I have read somewhere that the break-even point on SBs is as low as 2/3 (67%)
Am I wrong? Has that figured been revised up to 75%?
I’d imagine the break-even point depends upon the run environment too, with a low-scoring run environment making it more acceptable to steal bases at a 67-70% clip.
If we use 67% instead of 75%, does Rajai become a positive WPA player?
"It’s ideal if your hobby and your living can merge. But you are not going to stop your hobby if you can’t make money out of it. Your hobby is all about trading time for enjoyment. My job is what I do. My hobby is who I am." -Tango
by notsellingjeans on Aug 10, 2010 8:06 AM PDT reply actions
I've seen both figures used...
I’m not sure who would win in a celebrity death match.
The monster at the end of this blog.
paul thomas answered this a few months ago...
his answer went somethng like this…
there is no single answer. the break even percentage has changed over time. with less home runs being hit today and fewer runs scored in games, the break even percentage is lower. when lots of runs are being scored and more home runs are being hit, the break even percentage was higher.
so the answer is closer to 67% today and closer to 75% a few years back.
upon further review it foots as well...
if you have giambi and other mashers coming up behind you, then making an out is bad. if you have sweeney and suzuki or kouzmanoff coming behind, then stealing gives you the better chance to score.
so it follows that Rickey was slightly less valuable to the 89/90 A's than he would be today
I wonder how many times was he caught stealing before a Conseco HR.
i don't think it means that he was less valuable. i think his caught stealing percentages were fine even in a high HR era.
It might mean he was less valuable but still really really valuable
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
right, that's what I meant
Rickey with no stolen bases was still an absolutely amazing player. THEN he stole 1,400 bases.
This is correct
Steals are more valuable when they’re in front of high-singles, low-walks hitters. This means that the break-even percentage is lower in those situations, and it also means that as a manager, you want to set your lineup up that way all things being equal, because you’ll get more WPA out of steals when they succeed and lose less when they fail.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
If you want to get really fine about it you can modify run environment to include pitcher and
batter abilities and park, including DP tendencies. Stealing 2nd with Roy Halladay pitching and Ryan Sweeney batting may have a higher WPA than stealing 2nd with Cedrick Bowers pitching and Albert Pujols batting
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
That would be virtually impossible
There are already over 8000 varieties, adding more would reduce the sample sizes to below usable, I am afraid.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Yes, I'm not expecting it anytime soon
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Right
A weakness in WPA is that it assumes a 50/50 game going in, and doesn’t consider things like pitcher, who is batting next, etc.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Is there a stat that does take this into account?
by LoneStranger on Aug 10, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope
You’d have to make adjustments to the WPA framework, and those adjustments would be very messy.
WPA works pretty darn well as is. The “graphs” part of fangraphs is their game graphs which show WPA fluctuating over the course of a game. I think you’ll find that they tell an intuitively accurate story.
Here’s yesterday’s (showing the Mariners were always likely to win, and there were no particularly important moments):

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
"pretty darn well as is" doesn't mean perfect, of course.
Isn’t that the drive that keeps us creating new stats? We have computers! Technology! Let the robots do the messy work!
Sure, it may not change the graph too much, but it would be more detailed, I’d think.
by LoneStranger on Aug 10, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
True, these slacker stat people need to get off their laurels
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't disagree
The question is whether adding the complexity would actually produce a better outcome. In any given game, the odds are pretty close to 50-50, and the better team might have the worse pitcher, injuries, be resting starters, etc.
It’s way out of my league, but I imagine there’s someone out there who has (at least) thought about it. I’ve never heard of a working context-sensitive WPA system, so there’s room to shoot for it.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The question is whether it would be worth the effort.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I think there are enough people out there who would find it worth the effort
Independent of the effort, but only so long as the outcome was actually better.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Let's put it this way:
It’s worth investigating to see what the results are. Even if they are better, it doesn’t mean it’s worth using all the time.
For example, there are many complex algorithms for calculating which pieces of data should be cached in a memory with limited space. You can simulate hits and misses, and how much time/processing you can save by using each algorithm. Many of these don’t perform that much better than ‘random’ and by using random, you actually save yourself the complex calculations.
by LoneStranger on Aug 10, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions
It would probably be more noticable if a true #1 starter with a healthy superstar roster was facing a replacement #5 starter with the worst lineup in the majors.
And less noticeable for average teams vs each other.
by LoneStranger on Aug 10, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
so a true #1. like the ones the A's face every night?
and the worst lineup in the majors, so the A’s everynight?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
by Future Ed on Aug 10, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yuck
I glanced at it yesterday and saw “Ellis triple play” and thought that it was him who turned one… but then when i saw that the line charted up in favor of the Mariners…
100% Athletics, 100% Baseball. 2009 Athletics, 40% Baseball.
It will not affect his WPA at all
WPA does not care about stolen bases or break evens. It doesn’t care how a player got to second, it only cares that he did.
What it does is compares how often has a team won when a player was on second and how often when on first, regardless how they got there.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I think that dan's break-even value
comes directly from the table. Rajai has +.680 wins from 34 successful stolen bases, or +0.02 per success. He has cost the A’s 0.288 wins from 7 caught stealing, which amounts to -0.0411 per failure. Oh wait, the break-even rate I get from those numbers is 67.3%, which is pretty much 2/3.
But I think the value of each SB and CS varies by game situation. The 67% is just the average
of his contexts so far. At least he’s attempting steals at the right times.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
In a 4.5 run environment, it's ~70%
In higher run environments it is higher (since outs are more valuable).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
So, for the A's it must be around 10%!
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Run Landon run!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Somehow, I can't see Landon Powell w/ a 10% stolen base success rate.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Aug 10, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn't he 1 for 1?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yes, his greatest weakness is not having enough confidence to run more.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Heathen! Blasphemor! WITCH!!!
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
You called?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
maybe i am missing something but
it would seem the WPA stat would NOT be considering the result of a SB from the current batters PA. that is, if WPA is based on the WP both before and after that players PA then it has NO consideration for after a SB does the succeeding players PAs give the team a higher lilelihood of winning.
it is certainly easier for a run to be scored with a player on second than third and even more easy with a runner on 3rd than 2nd. yet the fact a player steals a base does nothing for that players WPA (as described in the thread).
also, with a stealing threat on the bases the pitcher is more likely to be distracted and make a mistake pitch and there is more likely to be an error by the catcher tryng to throw him out at 1st on a quick throw (how often this happens i have know idea) or even about an errant pick-off attempt by the pitcher that allows a runner to go to advance on a one base or even two base error
also, with a threat on the bases a pitcher is MORE likely to be throwing fastballs instead of changeups or curves because the fastball gives the baserunner less time to steal. so the batter is more able to sit on a fastball with the narrower pitch selection by the pitcher.
repeated throws to first can also aid in arm fatigue for the pitcher during an outing
opps there was a typo
that should read “easier from second than first”
by heartstopper on Aug 10, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
It isn't based on PA
It’s based upon changes in game “state” (basically whenever an event alters the score, number of outs, and/or position of baserunners)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Does WPA distinguish between BB and HBP?
The game state that results is the same, but IIRC wOBA gives HBP a slightly higher value, doesn’t it?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
No idea
But then I don’t know why wOBA would do that since each is equally valuable.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
We discussed this a few months ago here
and people speculated that HBP indicates more severe control problems for pitchers, so it’s associated with more scoring than a BB is.
Incidentally, WPA could distinguish between the two. I assume it distinguishes between a 3-run HR and a comebacker with runners on 1st and 2nd that the pitcher heaves down the 1B line, leading to a bases-clearing, 4-base error. The end-state is the same, but it’s easy to note that the two plays were different.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Add to that
that getting hit by pitches is actually a repeatable skill to some degree (Jason Kendall and Don Baylor leap to mind).
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Well, yeah, but much less so than drawing walks is
That doesn’t distinguish the two.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
WPA does not, because the outcome is the same.
But wOBA does (a little), because that’s just how the numbers laid out. It’s possible that pitchers who hit batters are more likely to give up runs than pitchers who walk batters.
For one thing they may be less likely to pitch inside after being warned or just not
wanting to hit more guys
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
This too.
There are a bunch of reasons why. We don’t really know why…all we know is that there’s something there.
some fraction of walks are quasi-intentional
Those get counted as regular walks, not IBBs, but they will always come in lower leverage situations (i.e. first base is open). HBP are basically random, so they happen in all situations at the same rate. The net effect is that a walk is (slightly) less likely to lead to runs.
Indeed
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Clear explanation -- thanks!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Well SOME fraction of HBP are either quasi- or actually intentional, too...
Perhaps it’s a lower fraction.
Arthur Dent: You know, it's at times like this, when I'm trapped in a Vogon airlock with a man from Betelgeuse and about to die of asphyxiation in deep space, that I really wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was young.
Ford Prefect: Why, what did she tell you?
Arthur Dent: I don't know, I didn't listen!
fangraphs says
it is the change in win epxectancy and is credited/debited to the pitcher and batter, not the player. than would imply PA and not just ANY change in game “state.” once a base running threat (both steals and advancing an extra base) take the extra base that is not change WPA. also, it says nothing about whether or NOT succeeding batters perform better with base running threat on base.
the averages over time would also not indicate any difference in rajai being on first base compared to say bengi molina…. there would be a huge difference and i would much rather have rajai.
the problem with WPA is it is only using historical averages for all similar instances but doesnt seem to consider instances with a base stealing threat compared to average less base stealing threat (you would want to consider against all other situations without BS threat)). the liklihood of scoring would appear to be greater with a threat on base.
by heartstopper on Aug 10, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Alright
So we need some positive WPA from everyone tonight.
100% Athletics, 100% Baseball. 2009 Athletics, 40% Baseball.
I think that theoretically
we could have a negative WPA from everyone and still win. Don’t mind me, just crazy thinking…
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Nope
The winning team has .500 WPA and the losing team has -.500 WPA every game.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I highly doubt that
there are many movements that are not accounted for
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
You're wrong.
It’s definitional.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
OK, just checked it
Base runners get credits for events that don’t involve the batter. This makes me both wrong and much less appreciative of WPA, as I see no reason whatsoever to credit the the baserunner who advances on a passed ball or a wild pitch the same as the one that does so on a stolen base.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
It isn't clear they should, but it's gotta go somewhere
And you’d certainly want to penalize the runner for getting thrown out on an insufficiently-passed ball. Also, not every runner advances when they should, so it is to their credit.
Treating it the same as a stolen base is just the required result when you’re looking at outcomes rather than trying to divine skills. I don’t think you’d argue that the resulting game situation is any more valuable following a passed ball than a stolen base.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
No, I would not argue that the win probability depends on how a situation arose
But I would argue that the individual contribution to it ( the very core of what WPA tries to measure) does. Stolen base is a bigger individual contribution by the base runner than a passed ball. Double is a bigger individual contribution by the batter than reaching on error and advancing to second on an errant throw.
The fact that it is not easy to make a statistic that can differentiate on that, does not mean that a metric is not seriously flawed by ignoring the difference.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I'd say there's probably a strong correlation between guys with high SB
totals and those that advance on balks and WP/PB frequently. ROE is also a skill, sort of, in that RH power hitters tend to get more of those. Overall these events are rare enough not to matter much, and no one takes WPA all that seriously to begin with.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree that the occurence might not be high enough to make a lot of difference
but it does not make it any less wrong.
The core of my gripe is that WPA is skewed towards .500.
A batter who hits a double has definitely not contributed the same as the batter who grounds weakly to pitcher only to see him throw the ball into the stands, sorry. Why not credit the batter with a negative WPA and live with the fact that the sum is not .500? Why is it better to give credit to people who happened to be around?
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Because that's what WPA is measuring. It's not measuring skill.
It’s measuring being in the right place at the right time and having something good happen. More often than not it’s because you did something good, but sometimes it’s because someone else screwed up.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
WPA isn't trying to measure talent.
It’s measuring outcomes in a game, regardless of skill. A double and a two-base error are the same, contextually, so WPA just goes with it.
See, here is where we disagree
And before I go on, I am perfectly fine with the fact that we do, but I just want to voice my opinion anyway.
If WPA actually were to measure talent, than I would be fine with it placing the same value to each ground ball because the hitter has little control over it as King Richard said.
But it doesn’t. It is not supposed to be predictive, it is supposed to tell us what happened. It is a hero/goat kind of a stat. If I strike out in an important at bat, yet reach first because of a passed ball I didn’t do my job. Period. My team’s WP increased and that is great, but not because I did something well, but rather because somebody else sucked.
Why does WPA have to attach that event to me as a positive contributor? Why not chalk it up as a team WPA or only as a negative WPA for catcher? Insisting that every event be assigned to an individual regardless of his level of participation in the event is IMHO a design flaw that could have been easily avoided by not artificially enforcing an action-reaction kind of scoring.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Basically you're asking for error WPA
Batter and pitcher get WPA for strikeout, catcher gets WPA for difference between strikeout and runner on first.
In some cases, that’s easy. And it could probably be done going forward. It wouldn’t work retroactively, though, because you need the “expected/earned” game state along with the actual.
It also would be fundamentally flawed since it wouldn’t give credit for good defense, and would rely upon errors (which suck).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I agree that errors suck
And that WPA would be flawed that way, too. I think it would be less flawed than it is now.
As for good defense, it doesn’t give credit for it as it is.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
We disagree about that
I think it would be more flawed, and that it’s better to ignore defense than to make it penalty-only
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I am fine with disagreeing
I see your point and it’s a valid one. I just have a different opinion, that’s all.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
It's been an interesting topic, though
Gotta hit the bed now, guys. Have a good night.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Oh, I just read it correctly
It helps when eyes are completely open.
Batter and pitcher get WPA for strikeout, catcher gets WPA for difference between strikeout and runner on first.
No, batter and pitcher get WPA as you say, but I wouldn’t give anything to the catcher, just chalk the difference up to the “team WPA”. Not trying to reopen the discussion, just realized that I failed to make it clear what I meant.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I think the last part is important
It’s not a stat that attempts to get at true talent, so it is inherently flawed in that sense.
It does all kinds of things that are unfair from a true talent perspective (you probably get positive WPA for grounding into a double play with the bases loaded and no outs, for example), but that’s the choice you’re making by using the stat in the first place. And a bases loaded DP could be what ultimately wins the game.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
If only Cust would do that more often.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
but following this logic
wouldn’t you want to assign more WPA to a batter who hits a hard line drive single than someone who drops a bloop over the second baseman?
"insufficiently passed ball"
I think the medical term for that is cryptorchidism.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
You know you want to
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah - the title of the Wiki page is a definite DO NOT WANT
I can't see, now I have to pee, and I can't count to three, but I can count to JÄGERMEISTER!
But it's OK for you...you're a doctor
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Not an MD
I get queasy if I cut my face shaving.
I can't see, now I have to pee, and I can't count to three, but I can count to JÄGERMEISTER!
So you don't know any more about sex than normal people?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Sex? What's that?
I can't see, now I have to pee, and I can't count to three, but I can count to JÄGERMEISTER!
Hmmm...you must be a Doctor of Philosophy
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Hee
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
[cough cough]
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
What happens when a batter reaches on error?!
Is he credited the same as when hitting a single?! If WPA wants to keep the addition of all individual contributions constant by definition, than it has to equal reaching on error with a single or a double.
So, to put it in other words, I am either not wrong, or WPA sucks big time. (It does sound pretty conceited, I know)
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Yes, an error is the same as a single, as far as WPA is concerned.
It goes with being context-sensitive, I suppose.
Well, since the batter has limited control over whether a ball he puts in play will be an out or not anyway,
it shouldn’t be too much of a problem to credit a groundball single and a groundball ROE the same for the hitter. Obviously batted ball types DON’T factor into the equation, but still, it’s the result of the play which is being measured, and the effect it has on the chances of winning. We already know that such a stat is highly influenced by luck.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Aug 10, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I see your points guys
I just find it wrong, regardless of what little effect it might have on the outcome. It’s not black and white, I don’t think that I’m right and all of you wrong, I just think much less of WPA after learning this.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
I think you shouldn't have thought that much of it to begin with and now should think slightly less
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
+1
It’s a good stat for showing which moments of the game were important, and to reference as proof that Daric Barton shouldn’t be bunting in X situation, or Bob Geren was crazy to intentionally walk Justin Morneau with nobody on…
But it’s not as handy for showing which players are good at baseball (and certainly not for telling us which players will be good in the future).
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Aug 10, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
this
and only this. Which makes a discussion of just how worthless or not Rajai is because his WPA is -1.47 a bit off target. It is unable/not designed to measure, for example, how often the succeeding batter gets a better ball to hit because the pitcher is concentrating on Davis’ threat to steal (or conversely how often the succeeding batter has to swing to protect the runner when he wouldn’t have otherwise). Things happen on the field which do NOT change the game ‘state’ but which still affect the team’s chances to win.
"Feel so bad, feel like a ballgame on a rainy day"-Lightnin' Hopkins
by justANotherAsFan on Aug 10, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
"It’s a good stat for showing that Bob Geren was crazy to intentionally walk Justin Morneau with nobody on"
So is the average population density of Kamchatka…
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
by elcroata on Aug 10, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's probably a good definition
Although my disappointment is not with the usability of the stat, I pretty much had it clear what it is good for and what not. It is with the way it was finally defined – I think it could have been made better without all that much effort. But, hey, it’s just an opinion.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Then how do get from having a 50% chance of winning before the game to 100% or 0% after the game?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure, but I think runs are invovled.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
When you're slidin' into first and you think you got the squirts
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Annualcreditreport.com
The one you can depend upon!
by oblique on Aug 10, 2010 12:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
For example
K-Rod sulk-off. Win probability was not a 100% before that and nobody got the credit for the last play
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
Who?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Iunno
If you looked up the game on fangraphs it would tell you, but I don’t remember the date.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Sept 17, 2008. E-1; How do I get the whole thing to appear?

I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Looks to me like Cliff got .502 WPA
Cliff Pennington singled to pitcher (Grounder). Daric Barton scored on error. Jack Hannahan scored on error. Cliff Pennington advanced to 2B on error. Error by Francisco Rodriguez.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Wrong game
it doesn’t matter, having learned how people are credited, I assume Jason Kendall got credit on that one.
Thanks for looking it up, anyway.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
wow that's two sulk off's for Rodriguez
and I think sheilds had an e-1 to end a game.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
Why can't the Angels develop any more guys like that?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I remember that game
It was the first day I met a bunch of people that I would be working with professionally for several years. We met at a bar to talk. I drank more than anyone else, and I freaked out when that play occurred. Here’s to first impressions!
(drinks to that)
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not the K-Rod dropped ball game.
That game was August 11th, 2005.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK200508110.shtml
And Kendall did get the credit (though K-Rod also got the negative credit).
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Aug 10, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
So my mistake was confusing K-Rod boners?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Ha.
I hate that guy.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Aug 10, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
How the heck is that possible?
65 players would have to reach 1st on third strikes and be balked around the bases?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
First guy reaches and scores on error
everybody else is retired
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
And the pitchers wouldn't have a positive WPA?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
You're forgetting that pitchers get WPA too.
In that game, the pitchers would probably have much more than .500 WAR, and the hitters would have less than 0
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
My whole theory was based on the idea
that WPA is not artificially skewed to end up at .500 or -.500 for a team.
Perhaps a scenario where all the members of the winning team would have a negative WPA would not even be possible if it weren’t skewed, but I think it could be possible.
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
very eloquent
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
– John Wooden
We have no bananas
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks Dan
I’m glad you were able to make time to do this.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
For the record
It seems to me that people who are inherently non-stat should like WPA because what it’s attempting to describe is what you’re seeing.
When you watch a game and say “this is a huge at bat”, WPA is saying the same thing (assuming you were right). When someone hits a home run when their team is down by 15, WPA shrugs the same way you do.
I would suggest poking through the last few A’s games (there’s a backwards arrow to go back days). I think you’ll find that the game graph is basically what you felt during the game, and that the people with the most WPA are the people you thought had a good game.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Aug 10, 2010 10:38 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
So now we now why we feel Rajai sucks?
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the "stolen bases don't really matter" point is counterintuitive
But yeah, I think if you watch a lot of A’s games you see Rajai flailing in important situations more than you see Rajai Runs™
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Yes, flailing is always painful to watch. I hate flailing.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Outfield 2011: The year we make contact....maybe
If we assume Carter is in LF does Billy bring back Coco to go along with Jackson/Sweeney in RF?
But seriously, folks....
Unless we use Coco as a defensive sub and go with Carter/Sweeney/Jackson.
It sounds like Billy and Bob want Jackson in the lineup as much as possible.
I want no part of sweeny in center
unless they took his knees to Midas.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
If they didn't, I don't want him in left or right either
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
This is where I say that we need Crawford if we want to win 90 games without getting massively lucky
and we can save money by not keeping Crisp and non-tendering Sweeney and Jackson.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
The key to this is that Rajai has to be able to play CF, or they have to find someone else equally cheap that can.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
OF next year
Taylor in left, Rajai/Coco in center, Sweeney/Jackson in right
No. Taylor sucks and Jackson and Sweeney are invalids.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
i posted this yesterday
but i dont think you should give up on taylor yet. hes only 24, and the wrap on him has always been that he might take longer to develop than a typical college draftee.
hes actually been pretty solid since coming back from injury (~.800 OPS over the last 2+ months), his road numbers are much better than home (like most sac hitters), hes shown good command of the zone and hes been playing CF lately, which gives me hope that he’ll be plus on the corners.
aside from being slowed by injury, the main problem has been his lack of power. he hit for above average power last year and the year before, and hes a beast physically, so im optimistic it could still develop. even if he only hits 10-15 HRs in the majors, hell be a very good player. i see something like .280/.350/.440 with good defense and 10-15 steals, maybe as soon as next year.
I don't mind keeping him in AAA, I just don't want to hand him a regular job in Oakland
At this point, any contribution he makes is gravy. I’m not counting on it.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I would love Taylor in center
something tells me he won’t be there. I would take him over sweeney there site unseen
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
But maybe not after you actually saw him there
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Pay attention WC
I am a radio only guy.
Seriously though, is he that bad in the field?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
I don't know. I've hardly seen him.
I was just being silly.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
hes listed at 6'6" 260
so its would be fairly miraculous if he was able to hold down CF in the bigs
Yeah, I think he'd be the biggest CF ever
He’d make Gorman Thomas look like David Eckstein.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Dave Winfield played 222 games in CF. He was listed at 6'6" 220
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Oooh, good counterexample
But Winfield wasn’t 260 lbs. I mean, Taylor doesn’t actually look that huge to me in pictures I’ve seen, but 6’6" 260 is bigger than the Big Hurt is.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Carter's listed at 6'5" 230
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I am sick of you stat heads
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
by Future Ed on Aug 10, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hee
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
BTW, Winfield was basically an average defensive OF from 1976-1981
so he would have been pretty bad compared to other CF. He also played some CF in 1983 and 1984 when he would have been horrible in CF
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
FWIW CHONE (based on TotalZone) projects him at -4 in the OF
which would be about -14 in CF. It’s not a great metric, but it’s probably not 15 runs off.
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
We traded him for Robinson Cano.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 10, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yay Billy!
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Meh, Friday was the real brains of the outfit
I hate Bob Geren and his peanut brain so much -- lenscrafters
by WaddellCanseco on Aug 10, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah and I love his potato skins with the bacon on them
But seriously, folks....
by sirbed on Aug 10, 2010 11:10

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