Who Should The A's Sign To Big-Time Contracts?
by chavez247 on Jul 28, 2010 8:54 AM PDT
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Well, Kurt Suzuki is under contract until at least 2014, and so is Brett Anderson. The thing is, who else can we sign to a long-term contract? We need to make the club more stable.
Right now, I'm all for signing Bailey and Ellis for a few years. Bailey is a strong young pitcher, and the A's are all about "young talent and building for the future"(of course, the future never becomes the present). He already has 20 saves this season, and is the best option we have at closer. Say what you want to say, Wuertz and Breslow won't get it done. Plus, I'd much rather have a "tried and tested" closer than a "trail and error" closer. Ellis, well, Ellis has been here for a long time. He's part of the backbone of the time, and is very solid defensively. He isn't the biggest offensive contributer, but the fact is, he is a big part of the A's, just like Chavy and Duke. It's good to have a couple of grizzled guys in the clubhouse.
Of course, there should be some youngsters in the clubhouse. No worries about that: Billy Beane is always coming up with new youngsters. But which one of the youngsters we got now is ready to be signed to a stable contract of at least two years?
A hitter is needed. I think that Rajai (even if he isn't a real youngster) should be signed fairly big time. He provides strong D, a pretty good bat, and of course speed. He's great, because when he gets on base, he puts pressure on the opposing pitcher. Pressure makes a pitcher nervous, and nervous pitcher is bad one. At least, for his team. The more pressure is put on you, the bigger the chance you have of making mistakes.
So overall, those are guys I want to see back for some time. And a few others. Of course, with Billy Beane, you never know, do you?
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I don't think the A's have the luxury of spending extension money
on marginal players like Rajai, older players like Ellis, or closers-with-balky-knees like Bailey. I’d say no to all three of those. When the timing is right (either to buy out arby years or to extend for 1-2 years beyond free agency), the only guys I’d probably consider would be Barton and Cahill.
Gio is too inconsistent, more likely to be a good “get 6 years and move on” Zito kind of guy, and the guys you really want to have the money to extend, if they pan out, are sluggers like Carter and Taylor. You wouldn’t want to have to let really good players go because you were committed to Rajai Davis, an aged Ellis, and Andrew Bailey-Devine.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Weird and random question
But does Barton have the agility to handle second base? His offensive numbers seem perfect for a 3rd/2nd baseman. And shifting over to second would allow a Carter type to fit into 1st.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
No
Maybe in an absolute emergency, in the 19th inning or something. But it’s unbelievably rare for a major-league player to move successfully to a much harder position in the majors. Can you think of a single major-league 1B, a guy who spent no time at all in middle infield in professional baseball (or, AFAIK, in high school) becoming a 2B in the majors? It’s possible that he’s literally never turned a DP.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Craig Biggio was a catcher.
Catcher turned 2B turned Center Fielder. Considering he may have played third and considering his overall flexibility, etc., it doesn’t seem so far off. I wouldn’t put him there right “now” per se. But have him taking ground balls there in the off-season and in Spring Training to just see how he looks doesn’t see a stretch. We’re not talking about a Frank Thomas type who doesn’t have the body for it, Barton’s a pretty small guy. And it’s not like he started out as a 1B to begin with. Would I throw him to the wolves there at the MLB level, hell no. But as a, see if could learn it on the side? IDK.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Craig Biggio, a HOF talent, is an example of a guy moving to 2B
But I’d point out that moving from catcher to 2B is moving to a less demanding defensive position, and that they moved him not because he was a bad catcher, but because he was a great hitter and they wanted to save his legs.
Is it hypothetically possible to move from 1B to 2B? Yes, I suppose. But it’s incredibly unlikely to work, and setting a young player up to spend all that energy only to fail is probably a good way to interfere with his development as a hitter, too.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
He had a lot of trouble at 3B
how could he handle 2B, a more dissimilar position
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Ya he has a strong arm but not much agility. I'd think it's 3B or 1B for him.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
that's being awfully generous
He was an absolute butcher at third base. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but at at one point with the rivercats his fielding percentage was around .800. It was failed experiment and I hope the A’s don’t have any intention of trying it again.
Nick Swisher is handsome.
Please dont compare Barton with Biggio.
Biggio was a remarkable athlete, like a bootleg Rickey Henderson. Barton is slow and not even close to being athletic. He has a classic catchers’ build, but he wasnt good at catching so he moved to the easiest position on the diamond. Biggio has the range, speed and agility to play anywhere. DB dont have any of those things.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
You're close. Think of Youkilis.
Barton should be able to handle 3B, but probably not 2B.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Youk mostly played 3B in the minors (340 games)
and was moved to 1B in the majors. Barton has played a total of 27 games at 3B in all of professional baseball — and his last shot there, at Sacto in 07, was horrific (.816 fielding % in 18 games).
He’s grown a lot since ’07, but it would be really ugly watching him try to learn to do this in the majors.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Given an entire offseason dedicated to it, I don't see any reason why he couldn't learn 3B
Pam liked my old sig better.
He also "didnt wanna" do it.
-Yeah, I just posted that, but my opinion is apparently "wrong" a significant portion of the time though, so take it as you will.
Precisely.
and that was the year before his godawful rookie season.
So, you think it’s a coincidence that he somehow became good at defense and hit better after that?
Pam liked my old sig better.
Agreed on that
It was mid-season experiment and it’s really no wonder why he wasn’t comfortable with it. I only bring up second as an option since IF you can play third, supposedly you should be able to play second. Or at least the numbers should fit the same. Really, I’d love to find him a position off of 1st base because while he’s a great defender there, long term we need more offensive production from somewhere and that’s probably the best place to find it.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
The numbers fitting the same don't mean the skill sets are the same
C is one of the top 3 defensive positions, along with SS and CF.
Landon Powell is a good catcher.
That doesn’t mean he’d be a good SS or CF.
3B needs to be able to throw the ball, while on the move, from foul territory 5 to 10 feet beyond 3B, accurately to 1B. 2B doesn’t need to do that. On the other hand, 2B needs to be able to turn a DP without getting ripped in two by the runner. They’re different skills with similar overall impacts on a team’s defense.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Right, that part was my error
Skillset <> Offensive Value to Defense. Though I’ve seen arguments that there are enough similarities that one could play competently at the other assuming they were good at the other. But I wasn’t comparing C to SS & CF. I was comparing 2B & 3B.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
There are definitely guys who can play both positions
Scutaro can do it, Gallego could do it, Tony Phillips. And that’s just guys who played for the A’s. But there are also guys who can play one but not the other: Mark Ellis can’t throw far enough to play 3B. I doubt that Chavez’s back and shoulder would have done that well getting flipped over turning DPs. And there are big guys, like Larry Parrish, who were okay at 3B but could never have played 2B in a million years.
You need some lateral quickness to play 3B, and a strong arm but you need a lot more agility to play 2B in order to be able to turn DPs. You can play 2B with just an okay arm.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Right
Based on a what I’ve seen of Barton, IF he were to apply himself, I get the sense that he’d be passable (though not stellar) at third. The original question I asked was mostly a wonder if he had the lateral ability/agility to handle second passably. Consensus says no, but it was mostly just a curiosity based on trying to find a defensive position that fits his offensive output so a power hitter could slot into the 1st base slot.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
First, because the offseason doesn't involve actually playing in major-league games
or even high-level minor-league games. Second, because there’s no evidence that he has the skills you need to play 3B. Third, because it took him a couple of seasons of actual games to learn to play 1B, which is an easier position.
And my point is that there’s a cost in trying this out. He will suffer at the plate if he’s spending all this energy trying to learn to play 3B (and, in all likelihood, not doing well at all), and the A’s will suffer because they’ll probably have the worst fielding 3B in baseball for some significant period of time while he tries to figure it out.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Generally playing in major league games or even high level minor league games
isn’t the best time to learn a new position.
Pam liked my old sig better.
The best time is probably high school, college, or A-ball
But you’re suggesting moving a pretty good (though somewhat error-prone) 1B to 3B in the majors. Obviously he’d work on that in the offseason, but there’s a really limited amount he’d be able to learn doing that, I’d think.
I’m assuming you’re not suggesting we option Barton to the minors in order to let him learn 3B in Sacto. So that means that he’d be learning on the job in the majors, right? It’s not like he’d just go take grounders at 3B on some diamond for a few months and come back as a major-league 3B. Even if he worked his ass off over the winter, he’d still have a long, long, long way to go, and probably wouldn’t ever get there.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
If he works on it during the off season enough that he's comfortable trying it out in real games
Then he can play during Spring Training. If after a few weeks that turns to disaster, experiment over. And if can’t handle that sort of shift during that time, whatever nothing major lost.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Do you resign Kouz before doing this?
If so, what’s Kouz’s role during the Barton-to-3rd experiment? If not, what happens if Barton can’t hack it? Tolleson? Cardenas? Bailey?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
God no
You keep him. IF he proves himself, Kouz becomes trade bait. But, really it’s more transition of being able to keep or at least opening up the option of keeping Barton with a power hitting 1st baseman around. Barton’s offense while great, doesn’t really play well at 1st.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Players have moved to different positions before.
Hell, they let Jake Fox try 3B.
Pam liked my old sig better.
Yeah, that didn't work out so well with Fox
Fox is an okay defensive catcher, which Barton wasn’t and isn’t. And Fox has not done well at 3B in the majors.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
His defensive stats seem alright to me
Nothing special, maybe below average overall, but a guy you could live with if he can hit.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Carter and Taylor
But if we want them to play, then we’re gonna have to open up positions, and that might mean getting rid of Barton
Ellis is not the guy who you want to extend, since he is old and declining, and we have internal options to replace him.
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I'd be fine with "extending" Ellis 1-2 year contracts, but not any longer than that.
Depending on his immediate past health and performances. He does add value beyond just on-field, but he still needs to produce at least reasonably well on the field, too.
Bob Geren... Jackie Moore without the personality.
Yes on Cahill
No on Davis (not that good, game entirely dependent on speed, history of nagging, speed-sapping injuries, approaching 30 years old); no on Ellis (past his prime, replaceable from within the organization); no on Bailey (overvalued because he’s a closer, fair number of injuries, declining K rate).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I would sign Ellis to 1-2 year contracts, as UncleLeo said, to give the team flexibility. There will come a time when his value on the field declines, and there will come a time when his value off the field doesn’t compensate for it.
I would not extend Rosales, Barton, or Pennington yet, but I would look at them for extensions in the future.
I would seriously think about extending Rajai. I like the Carter-Taylor-Rajai outfield.
I would wait and see on Gio, Braden, and Vinny. I would extend Cahill sometime in the near future.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 28, 2010 10:39 AM PDT reply actions
I'd say no on everybody else, including Cahill, Gio and Bailey
I’d want a guy to have the potential to make multiple 4+ WAR seasons. I don’t see that on this team. I never thought I’d say this, and I’m happy to be wrong, but the closest one for me is Pennington.
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 11:12 AM PDT reply actions
Why would you say no to Cahill? He’s 22 and has been very good this season. His WAR won’t be all that since it’s based on FIP.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jul 28, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with ya RRS
Maybe not RIGHT now, but if he stays healthy and finishes the end of the year strong, no reason not to lock him up.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Athletics Nation - WE'RE ALL GONNA MRIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
by cuppingmaster on Jul 28, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Because his WAR based on FIP isn't that good.
I’d wait a year to see if he’s for real
Daric Barton has become an unsupervised bunting fool - Christina Kahrl
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 28, 2010 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions
It's all a matter of risk
Both sides have reasons to sign now, and both sides have reasons to wait a year. I think I could imagine a mutually-agreeable extension that I’d think was reasonable.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Just wanted to say,
you joined recently, and still call yourself Chavez. That’s fucking loyalty, and I commend that.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
by travdog6 on Jul 28, 2010 4:42 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
OK, so shoot me down if this makes no sense,
but this CBSSports.com blurb about Sheets and his injury got me thinking: what about signing Sheets to a cheap minor-league deal?
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 28, 2010 5:44 PM PDT reply actions
I think we should sign Sheets and Duke to minor league deals,
and fire our entire training staff!
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Gio.
/thread
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
I'd sign Ellis...
…as player/manager.
Extensions? Cahill, Gio and Mazzarro. This group of stating pitching has a chance to be something really special, ala the Braves Young Guns of the early 90s. They will be the foundation of the success this team is about to experience over the next several years.
by HCF from Oakball on Jul 28, 2010 10:41 PM PDT reply actions
I'd pass on Gio and Mazzaro
You can’t hand out extension like they’re skittles or you’ll find yourself unable to lock up other better players or pursue FAs, international players, etc. if you have a limited budget. Pitchers get hurt all the time so they’re especially risky, and Gio (2nd in the league in BBs) and Mazzaro (very unproven, not nearly as highly rated as a prospect as Cahill/Anderson were) would not make my list.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Fair enough...
…but I’d certainly get moving on Cahill, and the other two are perhaps (and hopefully) just a year away from extensions as well.
re: Barton, I hope the team can upgrade at first base. Yes, he’s turned out better than I thought he would – you, Nico, may recall that I was very down on him prior to and and at the begining of the season – but he’s still not the John Olerud clone that some here think he may be. We simply need power from somewhere. If Carter is legit, Barton must be traded.
by HCF from Oakball on Jul 29, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd wait until next season on Cahill
If he starts out anything like he’s pitching now, you get it done. If not, then you don’t. He’s have a fucking awesome season. But it’s a little too soon to know if he’s going to continue being the Ace or whether he’ll regress a bit towards another mean.
Choosy Feebas choose Leopold Bloom nipples
Daring. Sensual. Invigorating. Squirrel.
BLOOM. For men.
I'm totally down for that.
I love the player/manager concept, and Ellis is easily one of the top candidates for that role in all of MLB. I would say Mark Ellis, Derek Jeter, Ichiro Suzuki, Omar Vizquel (if he wasn’t on retirement’s doorstep), Manny Ramirez, Chipper Jones, and Albert Pujols are the best baseball minds currently playing the game. I’d love to see all of them take on some kind of role like this.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 29, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Hold on. I don't understand what you're saying.
You just said that Manny Ramirez is one of the best “baseball minds” in the game.
What?
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Jul 29, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup, and I stand by that.
That guy understands the game of baseball 100%. If he acts like a clown, it’s because he means to act like a clown. As a manager, he’d be a lot like Ozzie Guillen; irritating, insane, and good at his job.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 30, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I seem to remember him losing a game against the A's
when he moronically tagged up from 2nd on what would have been a game-tying sac fly and got himself tagged out before the run scored.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I seem to recall Ozzie Guillen being irritating, insane, and bad at his job.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And homophobic
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I don't see
Ichiro, Manny or Pujols as future managers.
by HCF from Oakball on Jul 29, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I might take it back on Pujols.
He’s more of a playing talent. But Ichiro and Manny are pure baseball, both in talent and in mental acuity.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 30, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Me.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Not going to happen with Ellis or Rajai
Ellis has an option that may not even be picked up and of course he’s a lil injury prone. Rajai is, well, Rajai. He’s due around 1.5M next year in his second year of arbitration and is controlled until 2014.
Keepers for the long haul
I think it is fair to say we have a hell of a staff in Cahill, Anderson (already signed), Gio (headcase but talented) and Mazzaro (keep the ball down Vin). I would lock all up one year before final arbi year. On the field: I think we need some vet presence and Ellis is so steady – sign him. Kurt was logical. I thin Kooz has shown he can play and contribute enough – probably get him on a multi pretty cheap. Raj should get signed. He has intangibles (passion) and though not a kid seems to keep learning and improving. The rest – Barton (need more power in that spot so sorry), Sweeney (see barton note), Buck (you still play for us?), Gross (no comment), Pennington (on the bubble – keep him through arbi though), Coco (gogo away).
Baja been here
re: The left side of the infield
I think we keep Kooz and Penny until something better comes along. They are, in my opinion, above average stop gaps.
Ellis? I’m serious when I say that I’d like to see him as player/manager.
by HCF from Oakball on Jul 29, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Please let Ellis go next year, not worth 6 million!!!. Sign Cahill and Gio!!!!!
Ellis is not worth 6 million next year. The A’s have solid replacements(Sogard, Tolleson, Cardenas) in AAA and can use the money elsewhere. The extra money for Uggla would be worth it, though I’m dreaming.
Coco is not worth the money as well and the A’s should buy out his contract as well. This extra money could pay for a premium bat somewhere.
They should sign Cahill and Gio to long-term contracts. They both have electric stuff. Hopefully, Vin will continue to improve and they can be a solid four along with Brett going forward.
I hope the A’s don’t overpay in the off season for some power. I think power arms in the pen could help more and be more cost effective.
However, a Frank Thomas like year from someone wins the AL West for Oakland. The A’s play so many close games that those extra HR’s are so meaningful.
Which premium bat?
Even without Ellis and Crisp being bought out, there’s over $20M in salary coming off the books thanks to Chavez and Sheets.
Pam liked my old sig better.
give carter $20 million and tell he he better start hitting dingers
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - dannycakes
sign the young guys
Cahill, Bailey, maybe Sweeney that’s it. Suzuki, Anderson, Cahill, Bailey and maybe Sweeney are the core of the team everyone is expendable.
by Otto Rodriguez on Jul 29, 2010 11:10 AM PDT reply actions
Please no Sweeney!
Overrated on AN, knee surgery at 24.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sweeney
I think he’d be a fine 4th or 5th OFer on a good team…but I definitely do not want him as a starting OFer on the Oakland Athletics.
by HCF from Oakball on Jul 30, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions
He's a fine 24-year old Gabe Gross
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't get it
Why would you “sign the young guys?” Seriously, they’re not going anywhere. I guess you could make an argument for the arbitration eligible guys but the only one who would have been a risk (Zukes) has already been locked up. Kouz is already making 3.1M in his first year of arbitration so I guess (if you thought he was worth it which I really don’t) you could think about buying out his next two arbitration years and a free agent year or two. I’d be wary of signing a Sweeny or Braden because of the serious injury risk, and guys like Rajai and Ellis just don’t make any sense because they’re so easily replaced.
Ellis is not easily replaced at all.
I don’t understand why so many people think he’s just some schmo.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 30, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Because his UZR isn't good enough
(even though he plays a really, really, really effective 2B).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Also, he's really not a good hitter any more
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Not a phenomenal hitter, true.
But first of all, his numbers would improve in a better lineup, and secondly, he remains a very smart hitter.
by StJosephBurningTheOakTreesToTheGround on Jul 30, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...I do think the A's should lock him up.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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